Walking Circumspectly
Kristen,
Really appreciate this post. There is such a tendency for people to get lumpy if all the i's are not dotted (and dotted with little hearts) and t's are not crossed. We're all flawed human beings, but God gave us the Word to help us see the truths and see the flaws in one another.
Thanks for taking your usual tenacity to this topic.
{{{{{Hugs}}}}}}}}}
HEAR HEAR!!!! You put my exact thoughts on the Pearls into words for me. They have so many great things to share but, yes, they are human which means they are fallible. Anyone taking any 'man's' word at 'gospel truth' is wrong. There is no reason, however, that as you said we can't glean some very useful information and ideas from the Pearls.
Good job!
Hi Kristen,
I really like Debi's book but I am like you. I don't throw the baby out with the bath water! How are you doing girl? You haven't been over to women at home lately.
Kristen - This was a great post. I've been having a little trouble expressing myself on this topic. I recommended the book to several friends with the "this is great, but you might not agree with everything..." She does have an attitude that we can learn so much from and I think that's the most important thing that I got from the book - and that's made a huge difference for us
I think the Pearls have a lot of good things to offer; but, like you, I spit out the bones and enjoy the meat. Those less mature in the faith would be at greatest risk of doing harm to their family by assuming that everything a teacher says is 100% right and should be followed. It takes the Holy Spirit's leading, discernment and wisdom to know where to draw the line - and a healthy knowledge of Scripture is essential.
Your post was so dead on, as usual, my dear! ((hug))
Good post. I think that you may be right when you attribute some of how they speak/write to regional influences and it's too bad that folks can't overlook that. Like you I've tried to focus on what I agree with in my reviews which are not normal reviews, but reviews-as-springboards to my own discussion of the topics. There's so much *right* in what they address that we can glean from.
I've heard the Pearl's speak. They are southern transplants. He doesn't have an accent at all. In fact his demeanor is very "corporate" even if he doesn't look the part.
They are from the 60's generation and their passions run high. That passion often irritates people. Confident people usually do. And the Pearl's are confident in their beliefs. But that doesn't mean everyone else has to be confident in them as well. But if they stir us to think about what we believe then that is a service to the body of Christ. Many others are afraid to say things that should be said because of a loss of readership or audience. That certainly cannot be said about the Pearl's.
I agree with many of the comments about using discernment etc.
But.... I think we have to be more critical of ideas when they have to do with disciplining of children. I don't know that we can just "spit out the bones," on this area.
One example I think of is from their article "Will to Dominate," which was a big influence on me. He talks about a 4-yr.-old who refuses to put on their shoes. And how you should "switch" their feet until they comply.
Does anyone else besides me find this seriously wrong?
Maybe he doesn't have a strong southern accent, but she sure does! (Personally, I think his is southern, but I guess that depends on how you define southern.)
Anyway, I appreciation what you're saying Kristen.
Kirsten, I appreciate that you are a defender of truth!
Someone said something to me once about distinguishing Truth from cultural practices of whatever kind, and I thought that was a very insightful comment, and applicable to the Pearls.
Also, forgive me, but you've been tagged
Thanks for your encouragement, gals.
Anne, yeeeaaaahhhhh, that sounds like...something I wouldn't do. I do think that they aren't talking about a big ol' tree branch switch that will produce welts or something, so I'd have to see the context, but...I don't know. Do I believe children should be spanked? Yeah. I think there's a right and wrong way to do it, and that's something that gets overlooked in the debate sometimes. I agree with Kim that the less mature in the faith could lack the discernment and understanding to weigh things for themselves and to consult the Lord about their particular situation; but that doesn't mean that no one should ever speak their mind, because someone might take what they say as gospel and be led astray.
Have the Pearls been too harsh with their children? I doubt it, but of course I haven't been a fly on their wall, either. I DO think that a LOT of good can be gleaned from their materials on discipline--but like I said in my post, I am letting Molly say all that for me, 'cause um, I don't have no kids and anything I say probably won't hold weight! 
((HUG)) At any rate, I love you and value your opinion. Your points are totally valid, and this whole thing is an area where we all have to weigh things out for ourselves, allow our husbands to guide us, and set our hearts on doing the will of God.
Bonnie, oh boy! I love good memes.
I DO have a kid, and he is often considered"one of the most well behaved children I know" by random and not so random people. I used the Perl's To Train Up a Child, and agreed with every word until the last chapter about homeschooling. And I am not afraid to say so. I think in this day and age we have become a society of liberality, and we allow too much with our children. But that is just my two cents dont get me going on that one!
With regards to any book, I think it is important to weigh it against the Word, to test the spirits. I have not read CTBHHM yet, but I am just DIEING to get my hands on it. I am sure I will agree with every word of that one too! (I tend to be super conservative, and radical, so...)
Peace,
Meg
The Pearls' discipline style is not mine, that's for sure. My children receive consistent discipline, and get spanked on occasion (spanking is not the only form of discipline we use, obviously). But the switching-their-feet thing is tantamount to a battle of wills, and with some children that's going to end up not only frustrating both parties but also possibly injuring the child before he gives in. My kids are more compliant than some, I'll grant that, but still: have they racked up twelve days of restriction in fifteen seconds for not complying? yes. Have they been spanked and sent to their beds for the afternoon for not complying? yes, often. But with a stubborn kid, trying to out-stubborn him with a switch is ... ack. You either end up giving in or going further than you should, in my opinion. Physical discipline in our house is preceded by an explanation and generally followed by some "now go think about that" cooldown time. My husband was abused as a child so we are wary of letting things escalate while physical discipline is going on. That's just us. And we too have strangers approach us and gush about how well-behaved our children are in public, so as far as that goes we must be doing something right at least part of the time.
The general ideas of the Pearls, I have liked. I like that they don't hide behind a culture of tolerance and say, "hey, whatever you want to do, whatever you think is right, that's fine." Because some things AREN'T OK or right, no matter what the world thinks about them.
quote:
But with a stubborn kid, trying to out-stubborn him with a switch is ... ack. You either end up giving in or going further than you should, in my opinion.
---------------------------------
You just described my situation. Strong-willed, opinionated child. But then throw in sleep and health problems and the Pearl method becomes impossible and harmful.
So, I'm looking at it from a different view than others given the situation I'm in.
And we did face the shoe thing. Now I ask "which shoes would you like to wear, your sandals or your tennies?"
It only took one time of refusing to put shoes on at all for me to solve this problem. We had somewhere she really wanted to go. She refused to put on shoes. I calmly said: " It's not safe to go out without shoes. You can choose to wear shoes and go out or choose to stay home and be barefoot." I then sat down and started reading. What do you know, she put on her shoes. No battles. No switching. And she hasn't refused to wear shoes since.
And now I realize I turned this and the other comment into being about parenting and Kristen said that this blog entry isn't about their parenting methods!
Sorry! I'm just ultra-sensitive on the parenting stuff because I think spanking is often done the *wrong way.* I believe very few parents can switch their children into submission and do it the *right way.* Especially if you have a child like mine. And anyone who teaches with the style and authority that the Pearl's use should be extra-careful when it comes to physical discipline and children. Children are vulnerable and should be protected. And parents are not perfect.
Hey Kristen,
I think I figured out the main difference between how you and I view the Pearl's teachings.
You read them and see lots of good things that you agree with. And then you see a few things you don't agree with, but no big deal.
I read them and think they have some good points (that could be phrased or written in much better ways). And then I see some things that just throw red warning flags up in my mind. Big huge ones! Ones that can easily lead to abuse of children. Things that I just so vehemently disagree with that I have a hard time wanting to consider much of anything they say.
Anyway, just a thought.
I won't say that I think the parents who have a problem with the Pearls child training advice have preconceived issues with corporal punishment to begin with.
Oops.
What I meant to mention is that, the Pearls have some very strange theology. I bought a 4 cd set a few months ago and it freaked me out. Really. Too too weird for me.
In regards to their parenting style, whether or not you agree with them, from all appearances their 5 adult children have all married in the faith, appear to be doing well, and have excellent relationships with their parents. In fact some of them write articles for their magazine now and then. That speaks volumes to me about whether or not their parenting advice really works. Dh and I have a policy that we only glean from other parents whose children are in the faith, are adults, and have a close relationship with them. Why would we want to listen to anyone else?
From a true Pearl fan. Except for their theology.
Ooo, Joanna, I am glad you brought that up. It may warrant a post in and of itself.
Yeah, it does.
Anne and Rachel, thanks so much for those contributions. Rach, you wrote, "Physical discipline in our house is preceded by an explanation and generally followed by some 'now go think about that' cooldown time." That's what I'M talkin' about. I agree with what you said about the foot switching.
Please share about the Pearls' theology. I've not delved deeply into their spiritual beliefs. Just what's on their website (some of it anyway), their magazine, and the Created book. What is wrong? I'm curious now!
quote from JoAnna:
I won't say that I think the parents who have a problem with the Pearls child training advice have preconceived issues with corporal punishment to begin with.
Oops.
----------------------------
And *if* you said it , you wouldn't be right in my case anyway. Well, I guess it depends on what preconceived ideas you're talking about.
I actually used to use and read Pearl stuff. I thought you *had* to spank to be a good Christian parent. It wasn't until my husband pointed out that what we were doing wasn't working that I even considered not spanking. I'm glad we stopped. Shortly after that we found out that our DD had a kidney problem that caused chronic infections and lots of pain for her.
So... I definitely would not fit into that extreme "all spanking is hitting or abuse camp." My preconceived notions were that you had to and should spank.
Well, I thought I had better get out and discover the Pearl's theology, so I foudn their statement of faith. Looks pretty normal to me. Fundamentalist perhaps, but I think in a good way.
I still agree with them, and respect the gift of training children they have. And I cannot wait to read CTBHHM.
Meg
Here is the link to their statement of faith, it was hard to find.
http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/inde...index.php?
id=34
Yeah, I don't know if I am going to do a whole post on it after all.
Bottom line: None of my problems with them are dealbreakers, obviously, or I wouldn't be endorsing anything they say. One of the problems I have is that they are KJV-only; I'm not. They're cessationist; I'm not. They believe "Once Saved Always Saved"; I don't.
There are plenty of areas like these where we differ, but I consider them brothers and sisters in the Lord, and I hope if they met me, they would think the same of me.
Hi everyone...I didn't really like this book as much as I thought I might. But I like all of you....! How's that for diplomacy? Hope you're all doing well.
Holly
I know you didn't, Holly. I saw some of your comments elsewhere.
And I like you, too. I hope you know that your opinion is always valuable to me.
I really expected to like and appreciate it...I had heard such good things about it. Once I bought it and started reading it, however, I just found lots of things to disagree with. Some people see it as very good, with just a little to disagree with. I think I can say that I see it differently...with lots to disagree with, and a little truth. Sorry!!!!!! I REALLY WANTED TO LIKE IT!!!!
Hey, no problem. I didn't write it. I can say for sure the Lord used it in my life, and I don't see anything too horrible...but I don't take some of the things quite the way that some commenters do (that I've seen on other blogs). I am sure we can all agree to disagree on that one.
I am (obviously!) not familiar with the Pearls' child-related books.
However, I think that even some of the loopiest folks (and I'm not including Debi in that category, not having read her writing other than what you've linked to!) can say some very profound, true things. That's why God exhorts us to have wisdom and discernment - so we can, indeed, spit out the bones.
the pearls are NOT southern transplants. debi and mike were both raised in Tennesee. they moved to a more rural area after they married.
Hello- I'm jumping in here. Don't know any of you and I may pop in once in a while. In regards to Debbie's book- I love it and think that so many people need to hear the truth of much of what she says. I agree that the writing isn't always the best but I try to overlook that and figure out what she is really trying to say. I think that if someone doesn't like the book and they have a great marriage then great but if they are having marital problems I would say, pray and have a read through again. There is much wisdom to what she says.
About child trainging and the Pearls. I agree that some of what they say can sound harsh but I have heard them speak and have read much of their writings and I would say that the biggest point they make is that a parent needs to have love, joy, patience, peace, gentlenes... oh- the fruits of the spirit, when it comes to disciplining their children. They are big on being cheerful and loving and having a great relationship with their kids and grandkids. I have read some of Rebekahs writings as well and the wisdom she has impresses and encourages me. Whether you agreee with the Pearls techniques or not somehow they have done a good job. I would also suggest that the pearls emphasis is on training more than it is on discipline and that they would say that if your 2 year old is not a first time obeyer than you've been lazy and didn't do your job. Most of the "swtiching" at this age and younger is also just a smack on the hand and possible a paddle on the bottom. I would also say that if your children are in their elementary years and are still being disobedient regularly then, besides not doing your job earlier and making it more difficult at this age, that you would probably have to be creative (which Michael says) in your discipline techniques. He tells parents to use their brains. Again, I agree that their are some things that I shake my head at but their is so much to gain from these older people who have been there and succeeded.
Sorry for the book-and the soap box!
Susan
Very well said, Susan--thanks.
Hello,
I don't know you. I was just looking up some reviews on CTBHHM and I came across you lovely blog. I just wanted to say that I first heard of the Pearls 5 years ago. I have read many of their books, listened to many of their tapes on child training and Bible teaching, and have seen Michael Pearl (he had his wife his 2 younger daughters with him) speak. Their ministry changed our lives. I absolutely agree with everything Susan said. The Pearls will also be the first ones to tell you not to take everything they say as gospel truth. I am very thankful for her comment and your blog. I am near the end of CTBHHM and I am loving it. I hope Michael will write one for the men soon!
I also just wanted to compliment you on how well you handle debates. I am just so impressed with you Kristen.
That is so sweet! Thanks, Crystal!
I enjoyed looking at your pictures. I'll have to check out some of those bands you mentioned in your profile. ((HUG)) Nice to meet you!
Thanks Kristen and thanks for checking out my blog which is not nearly as cool as yours, I'm still new at it.
I am so excited I found your blog. It has lead me to some other really awesome blogs. There are some really awesome Christian ladies out there!
That was one great post. Thanks Kristen.
Often, when listening to Mike, I've said to myself, "That is a pretty strict statement of fact about something that is difficult at best to understand... a spoon full of sugar might be the better option here..." Of course making that point out loud would simply result in a blank stare... lol. I love that man. I am deeply indebted to Mike for so many points of teaching.
[In the same breath] It has been my observation that people looking for truth tend to have thick skin. The implied counterpoint is, in my experience, equally common.
By the way, both Mike and Debi were born and raised in Memphis. Southern as it gets.
--gabe
Thanks, Gabe! I agree with your observation about people who are really hungry for truth.
That was a very good thread! I agree with you all! There are some things that I don't agree with in regards to the Pearls teachings, but at the same time, there are alot that I do agree with. I take the good, and leave the bad. God Bless you!!
Ali
Hi there!
Just felt like jumping in! I love CTBHH. I was shocked that there were those who didn't. Of course I love their child training things, too. Anyway, I think now that what you are like determines to some degree how you will receive some things. I "see" myself so clearly in her book. I see my husband trying to lead and me tearing him down "spiritually" Of course, not everybody is like me, PTL, so they may not get the same thing out of it that I did. I also relized to my shame, just what a feminist I was. God bless Debi Pearl, and if anybody doesn't like what she has to write, then don't read it! But don't steal the possible blessing from someone else who might just need it!
R
I know this is old news, but I've been reading some old CTBHHM reviews here and there and found yours - which I really loved and appreciated!
I just wanted to add that another thing which draws me to the Pearls and their wisdom is their fruit - their children, all faithful, God-first, family-oriented people. Anyone can give marriage and child advice - only those with the good fruit will I be listening to!
Thanks for doing this - and congrats on your baby boy! I found you through The High Calling - and I plan on coming back often!
Blessings.
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