Excellent post. You make many good points that I totally agree with. Over the years, I have often made mention to frum friends that I greatly respect some of the values that my non-religious parents taught me - such as being color-blind to race, religion and background, and being non-judgmental and caring to everyone - that often don't get taught in frum families. I can't say how many times I heard people make comments about how certain world ills didn't exist in the frum community, while I pointed out that they indeed did - that maybe they were covered up a little better, but that the frum community is immune to nothing. I think it's regrettable that many kiruv organizations do teach BTs and converts to throw out the teachings of their parents and justify the estrangement from them. Thank you for writing this post.
GGG,
Thanks for the positive feedback. I have thought deeply and seriously about many of the ideas I have written about in the post and it’s nice to know that my reflections resonate with others.
>>>”I think it's regrettable that many kiruv organizations do teach BTs and converts to throw out the teachings of their parents and justify the estrangement from them. Thank you for writing this post.”
Are you talking about teachings like “being color-blind to race, religion and background, and being non-judgmental and caring to everyone?” If so I agree with you, but other then that, I did not experience anything that resulted in my becoming more estranged from my family. If anything, the opposite. That is not to say that there are not kiruv professionals or Rabbis who undermine family relations. I am sure this occurs, but I have been fortunate not to have had this experience.
Welcome back to the blogosphere.
I hope that you post often.
”One common example is the familiar refrain concerning the sorry state of the American family - - with its 50% divorce rate.”
Pretty much models the divorce rate among my friends and family. However stats are notoriously poor at providing context. In this case, the real horror show is married folks, many of whom are living in rote, loveless relationships. I do believe Judaism has much to offer to these families. Everything from proscribed sexual moments, modesty and family time. As a clinician, I have very little to offer my non-Jewish (and secular Jewish) clients that compare to traditional Jewish practices. Though I do encourage couples to explore their own faith/traditions.
“marry later in life, in their thirties, often-graduate educated middle and upper middle class professionals, have a very low incidence of divorce, possibly no greater then the Orthodox world.”
Pal, have you spoken to any of these “later in life” folks? I’m one of ‘em. So are all of my friends. Every one of us appreciates the conundrum we’ve placed ourselves in after years of frolicking about…casual sex…non-committal lifestyle. And then we try and settle down…in our 30’s. We’re all in therapy dealing with what we’ve done. The fact that we’re marrying later has more to do with a Peter Pan’esque fantasy (see Robert Bly’s The Sibling Society) than any virtuous secular ideal.
“The divorce rate also tells us nothing about the quality of Frum marriages where economic, personal and social forces inhibit divorce.”
Ah, but here’s the rub. Many years ago, as a secular anti-Orthodox graduate student, I echoed similar sentiments. And then that damn JFS study (I haven’t been able to locate the study, but I believe it was conducted in NY early 90’s) explored divorce rate and MARITAL SATISFACTION among secular and frum Jews. My Lord, they beat us in every category by at least a 60% margin. Humbling.
” many of the wider world’s ills are indeed shared by Frum society”
True, but in proportions that are so radically different, it should make an atheist consider switching sides.
I play guitar. Jimmy Page plays guitars. We both own guitars. And that’s where the comparison ends.
“cheredi women suffer considerable levels of sexual abuse.”
My wife’s a psychiatry resident, so we receive the American Psychiatric Journal on a regular basis. We read the article. Did you? Because your either wilfully or unknowingly misleading your readers.
“often heard such disparaging references about the "outside world," sometimes subtle, sometimes overt.”
I did as well. And while the references may be true, it’s best to focus on the positive. However, I do believe a religious leader (rabbi, priest…) has a moral obligation to protest that which s/he feels is immoral.
“the world is NOT predominantly filled with immoral, unrestrained, and self-indulgent people”
Perhaps not. But the social benefits that exist in the religious world are unparalleled in the secular comm
community.
“It's a mixed bag, just like Orthodox Judaism; one encounters good people and bad”
No, it’s not a mixed bag. Though it’s quite fashionable to ho hum difference…all very PC.
” if one decides to leave frum society, it does not, by any means, necessarily entail leading an immoral, unrestrained, and self-indulgent life”
Very true.
such a great piece. thanks for writing it. i think the thrust of your argument-- that kiruv people should not, AND NEED NOT, condemn the 'outside world' in order to lure non-observant Jews to become BT-- is critical.
There is so much to love about orthodoxy, from the strength of its continuity to its extremely tight-knit communities, to its commitment to education, etc. etc. As for the details of your argument-- divorce rates, marital unhappiness, etc-- it doesn't matter if one agrees with those or not. Personally I would have raised different points, such as the blatant and horrible racism prevalent among orthodox people that I don't encounter among my secular and non-jewish friends. or how keeping kosher often means eating less healthy. or how much my non-jewish friends have positively influenced my life. but again, the details of the argument are personal; what we all should focus on is the acknowledgment of the main point (above); it is one well worth making and repeating and consistently holding our kiruv-worker friends/organizations up to.
“the blatant and horrible racism prevalent among orthodox people”
A very disturbing trend, I agree. The homophobia and beyond the pale comments about Arabs/Palestinians make for jarring Shabbos discussion.
“I don't encounter among my secular and non-jewish friends”
I’ve noticed the same thing.
“ how keeping kosher often means eating less healthy”
I’m not sure if “keeping kosher’ means eating less healthy. But the abysmal lack of physical activity in observant life (coupled with unhealthy 9 course meals, multiple children, etc., etc) creates impediments for healthy living. However, I’d like to think my wife and I are quite healthy, active, etc. And we keep kosher’ish (we’ll eat in veggie restaurants) and hit the gym at least 3 days a week (Boxing in January….YES!!)
“ it is one well worth making and repeating and consistently holding our kiruv-worker friends/organizations up to”
So long as it is tempered with all the amazing things these folks do. My secular and non-Jewish friends are amazed at the hospitality offered by the frum community. In general, very special people.
"My secular and non-Jewish friends are amazed at the hospitality offered by the frum community".
That's what I use to think, until I realized that there is an agenda involved and I was a "kiruv project". After a while, when people in the frum community realized that I wasn't following the program as prescribed the hospitality decreased tremendously. Yes, there are still frum families in whose homes I am always welcome, but it’s not the same; it's not the phony welcoming parade I received when I was first introduced to the orthodox Jewish community.
>> many years ago, as a secular anti-Orthodox graduate student
With a name like Avrum somehow I doubt that you were a graduate student who was secular antiorthodox.
>> the social benefits that exist in the religious world are unparalleled in the secular community
as long as you adhere to the tyranical lifestyle, and guys are not always able to talk to girls.
>> With a name like Avrum somehow I doubt that you were a graduate student who was secular antiorthodox.
Really? That's the most bizzare observation I've read in some time. Shall I give you a list of famous atheist Jews with Biblical sounding names?
>> as long as you adhere to the tyranical lifestyle, and guys are not always able to talk to girls.
How old are you? 15?
From SJ's blog:
"I will not join a society in which talking to girls is discouraged. I will not join a society in which jeans are not allowed in schools (that's just stupid). These are among my issues with orthodoxy,"
Please tell me your 15.
You mean HEBREW sounding names? Sure go ahead.
and btw avram- F### you, my age is none of your business. the way to defend your position is to say why it makes sense to not talk to girls and to not allow jeans in yesheivot. of course, there is no way it makes sense.
One common example is the familiar refrain concerning the sorry state of the American family - - with its 50% divorce rate.”
”Pretty much models the divorce rate among my friends and family.
I wonder if your personal experience has shaped your views. My experience is completely different from yours. My parents have been married over 40 years, my siblings are all happily married with children, and I do not have a first cousin (20 of them, 14 married) who is divorced. In addition, all my friends from college and grad school are married (some 15 years) - - no divorces there either. I am not claiming they all have a perfect marriage, but they are no different then many of my close (close enough to talk about marriage) FFB married friends and they are clearly better then my BT friends. I have heard (second hand I admit) from quite a few qualified people that Frum marriages are no better, but these same people do hold that, among exceptionally strong marriages, Orthodox Judaism affords a potential for kedusha that does not exist in a more secular oriented marriage. This could be true, but, in my view, this is very subjective
Pal, have you spoken to any of these “later in life” folks? I’m one of ‘em. So are all of my friends. Every one of us appreciates the conundrum we’ve placed ourselves in after years of frolicking about…casual sex…non-committal lifestyle. And then we try and settle down…in our 30’s. We’re all in therapy dealing with what we’ve done. The fact that we’re marrying later has more to do with a Peter Pan’esque fantasy (see Robert Bly’s The Sibling Society) than any virtuous secular ideal.
I never said it was a virtuous ideal. I just said it was correlated to a lower incidence of divorce. Again, you are reading to much of your own biography into this. I am also familiar with Bly and his ideas are beside the point.
And then that damn JFS study (I haven’t been able to locate the study, but I believe it was conducted in NY early 90’s) explored divorce rate and MARITAL SATISFACTION among secular and frum Jews. My Lord, they beat us in every category by at least a 60% margin. Humbling.
I would have to read the study, but I doubt they have better marriages. You seem to be over dramatizing the study and its significance.
True, but in proportions that are so radically different, it should make an atheist consider switching sides…….Perhaps not. But the social benefits that exist in the religious world are unparalleled in the secular
I personally believe in G,d but it is worth noting that Atheist have a much lower divorce rate then born again Christians. See http://www.religioustolerance.or...rg/
chr_dira.htm
Also, you need to compare Orthodox Jews to similar socio economic groups and in this regard I do not see a “radical difference,” certainly not enough of a difference to justify adherence to a fundamentalist religion whose doctrines do not hold up to scrutiny and whose lifestyle affords as much beauty as it does grief. If, in your subjective opinion, you consider it a lifestyle that is superior to all the others, then, G,d bless, but others, who view the matter differently, are entitled to respect.
“It's a mixed bag, just like Orthodox Judaism; one encounters good people and bad”
Avrum:”No, it’s not a mixed bag. Though it’s quite fashionable to ho hum difference…all very PC”.
I think it is a mixed bag and I certainly was not being PC when I made the comment. My views here are informed by my life experience and not by any liberal ideological bent. Since you see things differently, we will have to agree to disagree.
KAN:“cheredi women suffer considerable levels of sexual abuse.”
My wife’s a psychiatry resident, so we receive the American Psychiatric Journal on a regular basis. We read the article. Did you? Because your either wilfully or unknowingly misleading your readers.
Yes, I am familiar with the study. That is why I was circumspect in the way I worded my comments on the matter. There was nothing misleading in what I wrote.
Nicky:such a great piece. thanks for writing it.
Thank you for your kind words
There is so much to love about orthodoxy, from the strength of its continuity to its extremely tight-knit communities, to its commitment to education, etc. etc.
Agreed
Personally I would have raised different points, such as the blatant and horrible racism prevalent among orthodox people that I don't encounter among my secular and non-jewish friends. ……..or how much my non-jewish friends have positively influenced my life.
All very good points which I intend to raise in the future
"In fact, a recent study from the American Psychiatric Association suggests that cheredi women suffer considerable levels of sexual abuse. Unfortunately, Cheredi apologists, who are theologically threatened by the very notion that such ills exist in their societies, have attacked the study (methodology, etc) rather then engage in honest soul searching that could lead to the kind of corrective measures that protect its precious children."
This is a set up. If anyone tries to explain why the study has little to tell us and is clearly so flawed as to be virutally useless, they are in denial, or apologists who refuse to do honest soul searching to take measures to protect our precious children. The problem with the study is not some critique of the methodology. The authors themselves say that they have no idea how representative the results are, and the methodology was clearly flawed. The problem is that the results are clearly wrong and tell us nothing about what is happening with our precious children. For example, if the study is providing an accurate picture, given the birth rate, virtually every haredi family - every extended one and virtually every second nuclear one - has a girl abused before age 13. This is laughable. People may think it's an insular society, but no society can cover up abuse rates of that magnitude. And the study only claimed to include real abuse - e.g. a stranger fondling someone's ass on the subway is not "Abuse" - abuse means an actual sexual act, like rape, forced oral sex, forced masturbation, etc that occurs in such high rates by age 13. Not only does anyone with the remotest familiarity with the community know this cannot possibly be true, it is not theoretically viable for it to be accurate. This is because, unlike the case with boys, yichud rules are sufficiently strict that there is no regular opportunity for pedophiles to have access to girls in institutions, schools and camps. Pretty much any abuse of girls under 13 would be happening at home, with an immediate relative or maybe neighbor. So is every second haredi home housing a pedophile? The claim is that the rates of abuse are as high as in the secular world, but the haredi world would have to have astronomically high rates of pedophiles compared to any other population for this to even make theoretical sense, and of course, the numbers are bogus if considered representative. So what are the numbers? This study tells us nothing. You can talk about methodology, but what is really meant by "the methodology and results are clearly flawed, but engage in soul searching to protect the children anyway, because something must be amiss" is that there is an a priori assumption that there must be high rates of hidden abuse, so even when you have a study giving patently absurd results, one should assume that something is amiss because of it. Any study that gives such absurd results is not going to tell us anything, so it cannot prompt s
soul searching.
"Yes, I am familiar with the study. That is why I was circumspect in the way I worded my comments on the matter. There was nothing misleading in what I wrote"
What you wrote was misleading. All being "circumspect" means in this case is that you know the methodology is flawed, but choose to rely on the study anyway, rather than acknowledge that we have every reason to think that abuse of OJ women, especially young girls, is unusually low.
Either you do not know the OJ well, and so are misled, or else you do know the study is so flawed as to be worthless, and chose to make claims about abuse of women anyway.
None of this is an argument for or against OJudaism. I agree with yoru points re divorce, appropriate comparison groups, etc. I do not think the "outside world" is "bad" or "dangerous" and the frum world 'good". I think the frum world's successes speak well for it, but these comparisons are too subjective to be meaningful. Moreover, I do not think that if the frum world has "lifestyle benefits" this is an argument for religion. Unless what is meant is that these benefits allow for better approaching god, and greater spirituality. Religion should not IMO be a "lifestyle" it is about approaching god. Maybe that is what is meant, but the messaage I hear is what is in it for me, not what is in it spiritually.
But this is not an excuse to make claims about abuse of women, and the "circumspect" claims you made call the rest of your post into question. It is not legitimate to attack people for pointing out how flawed the study is while also admitting you are circumspect b/c it is flawed. As I wrote above, if you do not grasp how flawed the study and its results are, you do not know the community, and if you do, you shouldnt have made the claim.
soul searching.
"Yes, I am familiar with the study. That is why I was circumspect in the way I worded my comments on the matter. There was nothing misleading in what I wrote"
What you wrote was misleading. All being "circumspect" means in this case is that you know the methodology is flawed, but choose to rely on the study anyway, rather than acknowledge that we have every reason to think that abuse of OJ women, especially young girls, is unusually low.
Either you do not know the OJ well, and so are misled, or else you do know the study is so flawed as to be worthless, and chose to make claims about abuse of women anyway.
None of this is an argument for or against OJudaism. I agree with yoru points re divorce, appropriate comparison groups, etc. I do not think the "outside world" is "bad" or "dangerous" and the frum world 'good". I think the frum world's successes speak well for it, but these comparisons are too subjective to be meaningful. Moreover, I do not think that if the frum world has "lifestyle benefits" this is an argument for religion. Unless what is meant is that these benefits allow for better approaching god, and greater spirituality. Religion should not IMO be a "lifestyle" it is about approaching god. Maybe that is what is meant, but the messaage I hear is what is in it for me, not what is in it spiritually.
But this is not an excuse to make claims about abuse of women, and the "circumspect" claims you made call the rest of your post into question. It is not legitimate to attack people for pointing out how flawed the study is while also admitting you are circumspect b/c it is flawed. As I wrote above, if you do not grasp how flawed the study and its results are, you do not know the community, and if you do, you shouldnt have written what you did.
apologies for the doubling.
Um. I found you through failed messiah and I think it will take me a while to read through your bio, posts and comments on these posts, but I feel compelled to write a quick comment. I am intrigued. I am--forgive the lousy label--a frum from birth Modern Orthodox married almost middle-aged mom. I think Orthodox Judaism--just as any other religious choice--must stand on its own two feet in order to be a valid choice. It should not be about fear and worry. It should not be a choice made in order to safeguard one's family. The same could be said of other religious choices. I choose to practice Orthodox Judaism (and it is still a conscious choice for me even though I was raised Orthodox) because I think it is good and rich and uplifting and inspiring and true. I respect other religions and those who follow them, but I love Judaism and I think Orthodoxy is absolutely awe-inspiring. It is joyous. It is intelligent. It is multi-faceted and multi-layered and it is quite rewarding emotionally. So, I am saddened that Baalei Teshuva are not being presented with the above. And in the end it is one's choice to make the leap to Orthodoxy, but the choice should not be presented in the way you describe. In a perfect "Outreach" world, the various paths of Orthodoxy could be explained. The texts should be studied (they are, after all, so vast and so varied). The holidays and Shabbos should be celebrated and the prayers should be sung with great joy. Argument and dialogue should be encouraged (this, it is my impression, does occur in Kiruv environments). And forgive me because I don't want to proseletyze to someone who I fear has suffered the sting of dysfunctional prosletyzation (my own term), but Orthodoxy is not synonymous with Ultra/Chareidi type Orthodoxy. The Modern Orthodox movement reconciled itself with the secular world, is inclusive and a bit more realistic for some. It did wonders for me and my service of God. I see too many Baalei Teshuva who think that the farther right they go, the better off they and their children will be. Does it please them? Does it sit well with them? Does it make sense? For the ones for whom this choice does work, great. For the others, I wish I could shout from the rooftops that Orthodoxy has other paths and before you throw the baby out with the bathwater, please try the other paths out. Anyway, I'm a thinker and I don't suffer fools gladly. I am frum not because I feel it will save me from the harm of the outside world. I am frum because it is--to me--a much richer way of life than that of secular people or Jews who are less entrenched and enmeshed in the Torah and its teachings. I respect connected Jews, Jews who practice and learn even if they are not Orthodox. I just think that to be hopelessly enmeshed and entrenched and sodden with your Judaism is only the stuff of Orthodoxy and it is worth the effort to try it in different ways. I pity unafilliated, disconnected Jews because I
I pity the unafilliated because they did not have the same learning opportunities. I pity the disconnected Othodox Jews because they squander the opportunities they are have to learn.
All this is very true, but I relate to it from the perspective of one who went through the frum system from childhood. In every yeshiva I went to, from childhood to adulthood, I was constantly drilled with the idea that the outside world is nothing more than people having lots of wanton sex and endlessly chasing after money. And of course, that the frum world is a bastion of honesty, morality, fulfillment, stability, goodness, bliss, serenity, loving marriages and always happy children.
I was never drilled about any of that. I attended middle of the road Yeshivish/black hattish type schools and no one spent a hell of a lot of time on the evils of the outside world. It was kind of a given that we all weren't gonna step off into the oblivion of the outside world. Instead we were treated with regular sessions and "inspirational talks" filled with Mussar and rebuke and concern and worry about our own lives and choices. How well were we covering our legs? How careful were we about the laws of Shabbos? How aware were we of the bad influences that may lurk around us (secular media, etc.) Not a lot about the "goyim" or the "goyish" way of life. It was pretty boring/annoying/stupid/insulting....but not the kind of stuff you are referring to, Hedyot.
What I objected to was that Orthodoxy was a given. It was all a given. I wanted to have more answers. I wanted to be inspired. I got that later in life when I happened upon some lectures given by some real Torah scholars who invited me into their process, who introduced me to the texts and the sources of their speeches. I was then engaged in my own Orthodoxy.
WADR, I don't think that you were being circumspect but purposely vague in order to take a swing without having to back it up. In doing so, you detracted from an otherwise nice piece that, in part, alleges the use of skewed statistics when you yourself are providing even less "meat".
Because of time limitations, I will have to respond to the above comments either late in the day or early tomorrow morning. I apologize for the delay
anonymous mom:I choose to practice Orthodox Judaism ..........because I think it is good and rich and uplifting and inspiring
If, in your subjective opinion, you feel this way, G,d bless. I think Orthodoxy can also be “good,” “rich,” “uplifting,” and “inspiring,” but it is not necessarily for everyone and it is quite reasonable to question the tradition’s veracity given its many disconfirming realities.
anonymous mom:and true.
I have to differ here. As stated above, the massive contradictory evidence makes belief in Orthodox dogma difficult, if not untenable.
anonymous mom:I love Judaism and I think Orthodoxy is absolutely awe-inspiring. It is joyous. It is intelligent. It is multi-faceted and multi-layered and it is quite rewarding emotionally.
I respect your subjective opinion, but again others who see differently should be accorded, without condescension, equal respect.
anonymous mom:So, I am saddened that Baalei Teshuva are not being presented with the above.
You are very presumptuous here. I think you believe that your experience and perception of Judaism requires and obliges one to have your viewpoint. It is also presumptuous to assume that you have been exposed to deeper and more inspiring machshava and/or spirituality then myself or other Baalei Teshuva. This is a self centered point of view. Typically Ba’ali Tshuva have considerably more exposure to this then FFB’s. What do you think Kiruv organizations use to bring people in?
I have read and studied quite a bit of Machshava and Jewish Philosophy over the past 15 + years (starting in high school), including the works of R’ JB Soloveitchik, Rav Hirsh, Dessler, Maharal,Gra, Chaim Voloshener, Ramchal, Rambam, Ramban, Saada Ha Gaon, Rav Sheira Ha Gaon, Rabbi Shneur Zalman of Liadi (Tanya), Rebbe Menachem Nachum Twersky (Meor Eynayim), etc. So have many other Balia Tshuva I know, so don’t be so sad. After study of these works, many of which are indeed quite profound, I still find it reasonable to reject Orthodoxy in general and the Cheredi expression in particular.
anonymous mom:And in the end it is one's choice to make the leap to Orthodoxy, but the choice should not be presented in the way you describe.
What I describe is just ONE post, just one. It is unrealistic and unfair to extrapolate from this ONE post my entire theology and or expereince with Kiruv. My point was about a very specific aspect of kiruv and it certainly does not represent the whole picture. Again I exhort you to read the entire blog (including the reference material on the left) and all the important points it makes. You might, then, find that it makes sense and you also might then be able to overcome your original shock and dismay about the first post you read. After you become more informed about what I have to say and the many issues I confront, I will be glad to engage you in any serious, objective discussion.
anonymous mom:In a perfect "Outreach" world, the various paths of Orthodoxy could be explained. The texts should be studied (they are, after all, so vast and so varied). The holidays and Shabbos should be celebrated and the prayers should be sung with great joy.
Again, I and many others were exposed to all of this.
anonymous mom:Argument and dialogue should be encouraged (this, it is my impression, does occur in Kiruv environments).
It does, but in a very apologetic way, like most of Orthodoxy. In any event, most Ba’ali Tshesuva are ill-equipped to recognize Kiruv’s intellectually dishonest approach when responding to questions on the tradition’s veracity. If you read current posts, the reference material linked on the left, and future posts where I will develop these issues, you will understand that Orthodoxy in general and Kiruv in particular is either deceptive or unresponsive to these issues. The fact is, that, revealed religions with fixed dogmas, like Orthodox Judaism, will inevitably be obscurantist when grappling with disconfirming realities. AND make no mistake, Modern Orthodoxy, although more open and sophisticated, is not much better in this regard.
You say “Argument and dialogue should be encouraged.” Who are we kidding here. Once you are frum, it is halachically impermissible to even read material that is kefira and this
includes, among other things, all modern scholarship. Because it is unacceptable in Orthodox Judaism to even entertain the thought that the Torah is not min ha shamiyim, it is disingenuous to claim open mindedness when this is a starting assumption. Given this, how can you believe that the Orthodox Judaism really encourages “argument and dialogue.”Can one really be engaged in “argument and dialogue” if there are certain places they
just will not go? I submit that the “argument and dialogue”you refer to, then, takes place within a very narrow intellectual and emotional range that is still within ones comfort zone. In my view, this self imposed limitation precludes any sincere and disciplined effort to open oneself to Truth
anonymous mom:And forgive me because I don't want to proseletyze to someone who I fear has suffered the sting of dysfunctional prosletyzation (my own term)
I do not think I did. The Kiruv Yeshiva I attended for 2 years, Machon Shlomo, is probably the most sophisticated and comprehensive kiruv program in the world. Its Rebbeim are world class scholars from both a secular and a torah perspective. What you consider to be “dysfunctional” is really a well respected and authentic institution that represents the “official” views of orthodox Judaism, albeit of a right wing expression.
anonymous mom:I pity the unafilliated because they did not have the same learning opportunities. I pity the disconnected Othodox Jews because they squander the opportunities they are have to learn.
Your use of the word “pity” is very revealing of an attitude of feelings of superiority and condescension to any one who does not follow your point of view. It excludes the possibility that another point of view may be equally valid as your own. It indicates a “frozen” state of mind that does not allow for differences of opinion and is found characteristically of self righteous people. You say you respect other points of view about Orthodox Judaism, BUT what you seem to fail to understand is that anyone could have had the same experience with Judaism that you had and come to a different conclusion from yours.
I excuse you for using this term because I believe you are speaking from the heart and because you are unfamiliar with my perspective, knowledge and life experiences which I have barely begun to share. Still - - you need to climb down from your “high horse” and read not only the entire discourse, but also all the details I alluded to earlier, before you “pity” anyone.
"Your use of the word “pity” is very revealing of an attitude of feelings of superiority and condescension to any one who does not follow your point of view. It excludes the possibility that another point of view may be equally valid as your own. It indicates a “frozen” state of mind that does not allow for differences of opinion and is found characteristically of self righteous people. You say you respect other points of view about Orthodox Judaism, BUT what you seem to fail to understand is that anyone could have had the same experience with Judaism that you had and come to a different conclusion from yours."
I wanted to replace "pity" with another word because I knew you would jump on it, but just as I do not know a lot about you, I think you can be humble enough to realize that you do not know a whole lot about me. I pity you for the obvious bad experiences and misguided expectations you had with and from Orthodoxy. I pity myself for the early years of my Orthodox education where I felt stymied and frozen--yes, frozen. I celebrate finding happiness in Orthodoxy and I respect those who have had negative experiences and who choose a different path. I do not respect those who--as adults--do not explore their faith in depth. I have friends of all denominations and even some--gasp--gentile friends, one close one. They would tell you that I am definately not on some high horse, but I sure am honest. Always will be and that is why I did not change the word "pity." I'm disappointed that you fell for it. It just shows your biases.
"The Kiruv Yeshiva I attended for 2 years, Machon Shlomo, is probably the most sophisticated and comprehensive kiruv program in the world. Its Rebbeim are world class scholars from both a secular and a torah perspective. What you consider to be “dysfunctional” is really a well respected and authentic institution that represents the “official” views of orthodox Judaism, albeit of a right wing expression."
Machon Shlomo is a fine institution, but as you say yourself, the "graduates" find themselves on the "right wing" end of things. I know a few pretty well. All I am saying is that there are other ways to be Frum. There are other viewpoints and not every way works for every person. I wish Baalei Teshuva and FFB (horrible labels one and all) would realize that. And, btw, if one then chooses not to be Frum or if one chooses not to explore Orthodoxy at all, Kol Hakovod. People are people. I respect that. I just wish for more in-depth, multi-level soul-searching when people decide to search within Orthodoxy.
Don't you think that many Baalei Teshuva become entrenched in a specific form of Orthodoxy and follow a "party line" to a fault sometimes? I mean it works for some--and by that I mean that some are very happy with their chosen path, but for the ones who are not happy, wouldn't it make sense to try other forms of Orthodoxy before throwing the baby out with the bathwater? I feel the same way about Judaism as a whole. I have a colleague who just could not connect to her parents' reform Judaism so she explored Conservative Judaism and found a place for herself within the Traditional wing of the Conservative movement. She is very involved in her synagogue and sends her children to a Consevative Jewish Day School. She married a Jew. She keeps a Kosher home. I just feel like she went into her adult life with the express purpose of finding a real connection to her faith and passing that on to her children. She enjoys Chanukah. She dresses up with her kids and attends the Purim Seudah at her synagogue, she visits Israel and raises money for terror victims... I still think Orthodoxy rocks, but I never discuss that with her. I just respect her journey and her persistence in connecting with Torah in her way. Within Orthodoxy, I wish those who were born into observant homes and those who were not, would just try to find their own inspirations and not focus on what did not inspire. If they are frozen, keep on that journey. I know there are people who attended the same schools I did and are perfectly happy with the path that had been laid out for them by that system of Orthodoxy. I say, OK. As long as you're plugged in. I found a different way.
I will set upon the task of reading and with the humble intent to learn more. I do want to mention that in my circles no reading is off-limits as Kefirah. I read what I want to as do many of my friends. We argue, we blog, we converse. My husband and I have a great friend, wonderful person, regularly in our lives who reads all sorts of things. He is a scientist who grapples with the idea of Orthodoxy although raised Orthodox. He may or may not choose to raise his future children that way, but he has many friends who are Orthodox who will read the same books and articles and debate and discuss all manner of topics. Again, I will read up on you and your links, I just get the sense that your experience in Orthodoxy may have been limited.
anonymous mom:Always will be and that is why I did not change the word "pity." I'm disappointed that you fell for it. It just shows your biases.
Thank you for your prompt response. But I think you were missing the point. The point is, regardless of whether I had a good or bad experience it is irrelevant. It just so happens that I had a good experience with Orthodox Judaism, but I came to the sad conclusion that the reality and alleged historicity and many of the beliefs of Judaism are simply not true.
The appropriate word that you were searching for is “I’m sorry” that you had a bad experience. By saying that you pity me you imply something more; and something worse. Think about it. You can only have pity on someone if they have not lived up to a particular expectation that you have for them. You can be sorry for someone who “tried” the way you expected or wanted them to try. But if you pity them for their effort you are implying that they did not behave or react appropriately and it is their fault and therefore to be looked down upon and “pitied” Basically you are pathogizing them. And this is a typical mechanism of reaction of the Frum people who try to elevate their own choices and disparage others. This is why I said you should come down from your high horse. Perhaps just in this regard and not in others.
You are probably a very fine and honorable person in all respects, but not in this one. You tend to denigrate what your perception of my issues and conclusions are. Despite your purported tolerance, perhaps you have a small “chink” in the “armor” which surrounds and defends your beliefs. That’s okay. I still welcome your comments, as they help to bring out many of the underlying biases of the orthodox community, one of which is to pathologize the nonconformist.
>>All I am saying is that there are other ways to be Frum. There are other viewpoints and not every way works for every person. I wish Baalei Teshuva and FFB (horrible labels one and all) would realize that.
I agree with you here. I also wish right wing cheredi institutions would be more tolerate of other Orthodox expressions. Unfortunately, Orthodoxy is continuing its rightward march. The truth is I have no problem with Modern Orthodoxy at all - - it does not do it for me, but I have no teinas against Modern Kiruv, especially left wing MO kiruv.
>I just wish for more in-depth, multi-level soul-searching when people decide to search within Orthodoxy.
I agree with you again, but most people are just not built to engage life in a deep way nor do I think it will ever be this way.
>Don't you think that many Baalei Teshuva become entrenched in a specific form of Orthodoxy and follow a "party line" to a fault sometimes?
Yes, but mostly because the right wing devote considerably more resources to Kiruv then other groups.
>>I still think Orthodoxy rocks
I think that’s great - - really.
>>I will set upon the task of reading and with the humble intent to learn more.
I appreciate your willingness to read and your sincerity to understand my perspective.
>.I just get the sense that your experience in Orthodoxy may have been limited.
Now, this is were you are completely off base. From a very young age, I was extensively exposed to frum Judaism - - all branches, even chasidism and I have a large extended frum family (MO and Yeshivish). In addition, I was frum and lived in Frum communities (modern and yeshivish) for well over 10 years.
If you are turning to Torah Judaism to "escape" from potential divorce or the fear of sky-high divorce rates, you are probably in it for the wrong reasons. But hey, that's just me..
I always use strong words in my posts because in "real life," I'm the overly polite person with people I don't know well. When I think the person is "way off base" on something and will not necessarily hear me out, I shut up. On the Internet, I vent more. I have my own biases, obviously, because I have friends who married right-wing Baalei Teshuva and I have friends and family who chose a more right-wing path than the one in which they were raised and cannot seem to reconcile their past personality, uniqueness with their current frum life. I have family members and friends--some Baalei Teshuva who have zero tolerance and/or knowledge of the Halachic MO lifestyle. They don't know or want to know and this is extremely troubling to me. I wish MO would step up and out and try to be more active in Kiruv and elementary education for that matter. Right now across the U.S. we have Kiruv Kollel after Kiruv Kollel establishing right-wing strongholds in places with varying degrees of Jewish community life. I don't want to use a broad brush and say that I think all of this is bad. I do not. My problem is as I mentioned. For many who are exposed to this across the country, this is their only exposure to Orthodox Judaism and for others, it is one type in addition to Chabad and it is limited and limiting in its Hashkafa. There is a buzz word of great use of late: GROWTH. The Lakewood Kiruv movement and others keep spreading their "gospel" and saying that they are helping communities "grow." I think offering outlets for learning Torah and celebrating Judaism is great, but I don't think that all Jews necessarily need that particular kind of Torah observance with its banning and Chumros, confusion as to Minhag/Halacha/Chumra. I definately do not think that a MO Jew living in Kansas necessarily needs to "grow" in this way. I do wish there was an organized MO Kiruv organization with a youth wing. Again, I will set upon my reading of your blog and links.
"You are very presumptuous here."
This and the whole comment of Kiruv Awareness Network | Homepage | 12.15.07 - 5:47 pm is exceptionally biased reading and itself presumptuous. You wrote a post complaining about the arguments you hear used in kiruv about the relative merits - or benefits - of OJ life (e.g divorce rate and similar) vs nonOJ life. Anonymous mom wrote back that she is OJ b/c of the richness she sees etc and thinks that is the appropriate way to do kiruv. Not only didnt she suggest you dont know what she knows, even if she had, she would have had no way of deducing what you know from your post, and her comment made no assumptions one way or another. You seem quite determined to extract the worst and most condescending readings of comments to further 'prove' what is wrong with OJews.
On XGH's blog, you wrote:
"Do me a favor and read my latest post http://kiruvawarenessnetwork.blo....blo...gration-
of.html. and tell me if it is angry. I think it is anything but."
BTW if you are so familiar with OJ thought, why were you so vulnerable?
"anonymous mom:And forgive me because I don't want to proseletyze to someone who I fear has suffered the sting of dysfunctional prosletyzation (my own term)
I do not think I did. The Kiruv Yeshiva I attended for 2 years, Machon Shlomo, is probably the most sophisticated and comprehensive kiruv program in the world. Its Rebbeim are world class scholars from both a secular and a torah perspective. What you consider to be “dysfunctional” is really a well respected and authentic institution that represents the “official” views of orthodox Judaism, albeit of a right wing expression."
This is bizarre. These are your own words in the post describing this institution:
"At the yeshiva I attended, Machon Shlomo - - similar to Machon Yaakov - - I often heard such disparaging references about the "outside world," sometimes subtle, sometimes overt. These exaggerated and oversimplified depictions became less restrained as the 2-year program of indoctrination progressed. This crude emotional manipulation, often based on exaggeration and fear, is constructed to create powerful incentives to join Orthodoxy as much as it is constructed to create powerful disincentives to leaving. "
You described yourself as a victim of emotional manipulation in a dysfunctional insitution. Then when someone writes in to say that they fear you suffered from dysfunctional prosleytization, you get angry and say it's a well respected insitution.
The answer to your question is that you sound quite angry, and are twisting words to stay angry at commenters and not discoursing rationally.
"This is a self centered point of view. Typically Ba’ali Tshuva have considerably more exposure to this then FFB’s. What do you think Kiruv organizations use to bring people in?"
What I have seen used is quite new agey, and not a good sampling of machshava at all. I could be wrong, but I think the average bt does not get the same exposure of FFB to machashava at least not in kiruv institutions, and what they do learn is likely to be distorted. In fact, you wrote a whole post about a very limited outlook about OJ vs the world that you say is prevalent in kiruv - that's machshava. If the teaching of machshava is so good in kiruv insitutions, why is the assumption one should be frum b/c of alleged benefits like lower divorce rate among OJews not questioned? Your post is not a testimony to sophisticated machshava.
"The answer to your question is that you sound quite angry, and are twisting words to stay angry at commenters and not discoursing rationally."
Sorry if this is too strong, or there is some explanation for your response, but this is what comes across to me, that you are twisting words to make points.
I would like to see some response about the way you used that study. If you know you needed to be "Circumspect" b/c the results of the study are off base, why do you criticize people for critiquing it. why do you act as though a study that gets frankly ludicrous results if taken as indicative should be an occasion for soul searching?
IMO if you do not realize how ludicrous it is to think the results of the study are indicative of rates of abuse in the OJ world, you are not familiar with that world.
"and what they do learn is likely to be distorted."
btw this is not always the fault of the institution, sometimes the bt themselves take things to extremes or out of context
Anonymous,
What are you trying to do? You are defensive, argumentatative and not at all inclined to consider that someone else can have a different and valid opinion about Kiruv Judaism other then your won opinion. This is not constructive. It is destructive of any attempt to clarify my point of view. You knit-pick at the parts and fail to put the individual observations into the whole construct. The whole construct states that Kiruv Judaism has some good aspects but that it also has some serious "toxic" components which are harmful to innocent, impressionable young Jews who seek guidance. Your anger is hanging on your sleeve and it is clouding your rationality, observations and perceptions. Don't be angry about what I say. Instead, list your objections (Yes, you did list some), leave out the animus, and go on with your life.
P.S. you sound like “Dude”
Anonymous:
As per Anonymous mom, after some mutual misunderstanding, I think we both have a better understanding of our mutual perspectives. In truth, Anon mom and I are not that far apart and I am actually partial to her perspectives and views even though I am on the fence about modern orthodoxy. In short, I respect her views, and I am pleased that she is a contributor to the blog. I have no problem with her influencing my readers to consider her MO lifestyle as an alternative to typical right wing Fundamentalist Judaism. In truth, I really don't care if people become Yeshivish as long as their decision is an informed one.
>>BTW if you are so familiar with OJ thought, why were you so vulnerable?
Familiarity with Jewish thought has nothing to do with vulnerability to Kiruv's deceptive selling tactics. As such, it does not inform the searcher about the fact that much of Torah is a rewrite of Ancient Near Eastern Myth, nor the fact that it is historically and scientifically inaccurate, apologetics notwithstanding. I guess like many BT's, Kiruv was able to exploit my lack of background in Ancient Near Eastern myth and assuage my skepticism about the tradition’s scientific and historical inaccuracies with fancy apologetics. Like many college students, I did not have sufficient background to understand that I was being fed superficial apologetics filled with half truths and straw men.
>>>This is bizarre. These are your own words in the post describing this institution:
The two cherry picked comments that you are trying to depict as mutually exclusive are anything but. You need to think in a more nuanced and subtle way and stop taking pot shots to discredit my underlying message, which you completely overlook. Let me spell it out for you: MS did not act inconsistent with Kiruv or the Torah world's "best practices" so to speak. How they sell Ultra Orthodox fundamentalist Judaism emanates from authentic Ultra Orthodox Judaism itself. Its dysfunction is not a dysfunction from an Ultra Orthodox point of view, it is inherent within that particular strain of Judaism; therefore it is normative from that perspective, not an aberration.
>>why is the assumption one should be frum b/c of alleged benefits like lower divorce rate among OJews not questioned?
This assumption was never made. If this is what you think then you completely missed the point of the post. Divorce is one of dozens of examples. I chose that one to illustrate a point - - it was not the point itself and i could have buttressed this with 30 other examples. You have gotten lost in the forest because you are over focused on the trees. The same is true for the example on sexual abuse.
>>.If you know you needed to be "Circumspect" b/c the results of the study are off base...though a study that gets frankly ludicrous results
The study is not off base. It makes a very compelling case that abuse is a problem in the frum community. Its limitation is that it can not be dispositive on whether or not the sexual abuse in the frum community is THE SAME as American society as a whole. The results could be less then indicated, but they could also be much more. You know very well that sexual abuse is hushed up in the Orthodox world, that victims are mercilessly silenced and harassed by Rabbis and that shame and fears of shiduchim prospects also motivate parents to hide the abuse of their OWN CHILDREN. You are sadly misinformed if you think the results are "ludicrous." If you are not misinformed, you are in deep denial, and, given the gravity of the heinous crimes that have been committed in our midst, you should really be ashamed of yourself. The abuse of children is not the time to be defensive, apologetic and circle the wagons. I think it is quite sick actually. How theologically insecure can one be. Cheredi apologist, like Avi Shafran, who have been shameless in their defense of alleged and actual crimes of pedophelia within the community should engage in soul searching. May G,d forgive them.
Again, I did not want to make the study the issue itself. It was meant to be one of many possible examples. I was hesitant to use it as an example because I feared that many insecure Cheredi ideologues would be too theologically threatened by the very notion that such ills exist in their societies. Sadly, your defensiveness is testimony to this. I had hoped otherwise. In any event, THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE and the point of the post still stands independent of this very example. If you don't like it, ignore it.
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