I don't know about connecticut, but I know here in Washington they (Union dolts, administrators, and even some parents) hate NCLB because it enforces standards of teaching, and consequences if they don't meet the standards.
Usually at this point teachers union officials and adminstrators start blaming parents, or a lack of money. Well, I am not sure the average in the state but I know the average where my son goes to school is almost 6000$ a student. PLENTY enough to meet any standard.
Again if private schools can do a better job educating for less money, we should not have to pay taxes for schools and pay to send kids to private school.
Liberals hate standadards (in general) and consequences. They hate that they are being measured aginst a level many teachers can not achieve. (here is where the uinons and administrators blame kids).
Maybe they should get over it, do a better job and do it for less money... just like private schools.
C.
"You said it. They stink on ice."
Liberals don't hate standards. We hate unfairness.
Unfairness?
C.
You know what I've always wondered? I've wondered where everybody gets off thinking they know jack shit about being a teacher. Just because someone went to school, they think they know all about education. Well I got news for you Chris, you don't know any more about being a teacher than I know about repairing cesna engines. The difference is that I'm not arrogant enough to think that I should tell you how to do your job, so don't come here spouting your conservative bullshit nonsense about teachers. Until you're a teacher, you don't know. You can pretend and fantasize all you want, but the truth is, you don't have a god damned clue.
Now let me tell you a little something about NCLB and standards - Standards have nothing to do with NCLB. NCLB is all about reaching a certain outcome - AYP (adequate yearly progress). AYP is measured through rising test scores. The way we achieve rising test scores is by teaching kids how to take the test. We no longer have time to teach things like problem solving and critical thinking. Now it comes down from above that we need to fashion our tests so that they look like standardized tests. That means more tests in multiple choice format (not always the best format for certain subjects like math). We have to take time away from the curriculum to review for the state assessments with practice materials that the schools purchase from the testing companies. ACT is making a bundle from schools.
Last year, teachers at my wife's school spent the equivalent of three weeks away from the curriculum reviewing for the ACT. This was not their choice, they were told to do this. This is three weeks worth of learning that had to be cut from the curriculum. They're expected to do it this year also. They'd much rather be teaching their classes.
Now Chris, if you want to talk about the merits of NCLB, that's fine with me. But until you've worked as a teacher, I don't want to hear anything about how lazy we are. Any time you want, I'd be glad to give you a minute by minute accounting of my work day. On an average day I put in anywhere from nine to ten hours. Today it was twelve. And most weeks I work six days. I'm not unique amongst teachers. There are millions of others all over this country doing the exact same thing. So don't tell me about lazy, Chris.
I'll be glad to talk about education and its problems, but if you're going to be insulting, you can keep it to yourself. And don't tell me about teachers unions and liberals and the rest of your Rushbo horse shit either. I've been nice to you so far, Chris, but you're pushing your luck. If need be, I'll ban you from the site.
Now be civil and play nice. Understand?
Bonus points to Jesse!
Extra credit if you can name the movie.
I think it's Mel Brooks' History of the World Part One
Wow kissfan that was really moving, except I did not say teachers are lazy. Many teachers suck, like it or not. Bad teachers need to be removed from the system, or made into good teachers. Would you as a parent settle for a sub par teacher in your childs class room? I don't know you as a teacher and so don't take it personally.
I agree with what you are saying about AYP, how ever what is that progress towards? A standard if I am not mistaken. I have spent a lot of time reading and learning about NCLB because I have kids in schools, and when teachers unions and PTA's start harping about something I get suspicious. I don't have to be a teacher to understand what is going on.
You may not know anything about aircraft engines, but you don't pay taxes to support repair shops either. Your kids don't have to go to the repair shop and hope the aircraft are working correctly either. However I get to pay taxes for a system that is a mess. I have to send my kids to school. I don't see any fairness in forcing people to pay for schools that they don't want their kids in or schools their kids don't go to.
As for teaching to the test, well when kids take a test either they know the material or they don't. Multiple choices in math, well either you can work the equation or you can't. Do the kids know how to write a complete sentence? Is it outrageous to expect kids to graduate 12th grade and know how to read at the 12th grade level? Kids in this country are not doing so hot compared with other nations, thus I am not too concerned with their critical thinking skills, but instead I would like them to know how to read and write.
How many days do kids go to school? 179, or 180 here in WA. Teachers get 1/2 a day off every month, a week for spring formally known as Easter, two weeks for winter, formally known as Christmas, and another week in the spring besides. You don't have enough time to teach and take the standardized tests? Thank the union for your extra time off. You get that instead of pay.
Teachers are underpaid and overworked. I know it and everyone I talk to agrees. So what is it exactly the union is doing for you? Well not jack shit as far as I can see. A person doesn't have to be a genius to figure this out.
C.
P.S. I looked at the school report card where my kids go, and they get $7,723 per student. Of course they say they don't have enough money. How much is enough to do the job then? $8000/student? $10,000/student? How much?
Extra Credit to Jesse!
Chris,
This is going to take a while and I've got a lot of things to do today. Check back tonight for my reply. It may be quite long.
That is quite fine! I saw what you said about school and graduate school and homelife, so no worried.
Good luck with all that work!
C.
Having worked as a substitute teacher for many years when my own children were in school, I know a little about the life of teachers. Or rather the lack thereof. Teachers are teachers first and anything else takes a distant second. Their work and their students are on their minds 24/7. To say they are over-worked and underpaid is a gross understatement.
Yes, I've come across a few bad apples, but they're the minority.
What our society just doesn't seem to get is teachers cant do it alone. There has to be a support system in the home. There have to be rewards and consequences. Children have to be made to understand and respect their teachers. This begins in the home. If the parent has little regard for the education process and those who teach, the child will most often follow his/her example.
NCLB is a farce. And a failure. But no big surprise there.
As for states defecting from the Bush bandwagon, don't forget Arizona and New Mexico. Both who's governor's recently declared their borders a state of emergency. They grew weary of waiting on any action from Washington.
How is that $7,723 per student used? Is that money that is used directly by the student, in paying instructors, paying for their textbooks, science equipment, computer labs? Or does that include the money paid to the superintendent and school board members, the maintenance and upkeep fees for the school district's headquarters and whatnot?
And the reason that teachers get so much time off isn't because some teacher's union somewhere said that they could only work that long. It's because America used to be much more agricultural - students got the summers off for working on the farm, and spring vacations were great for planting and whatnot. Since the students weren't at school during those times, there wasn't much point to pay the teachers to be at school. Nowadays, things have changed a bit and we've drifted away from the farming culture (though not too far, in many parts of the country), but the system remains in place.
I can't say I know much about teaching, or even about the NCLB stuff, but I do know that when too much emphasis is put on test results, school districts and schools tend to adopt the attitude that test results are all that matter. Often, they require a certain amount of time (in some instances, absurdly large amounts of time) in the classroom to be spent on test prep - even if it's at the expense of teaching students something new (and perhaps important.)
I don't really have a solution, though. I do think that standardized testing could be a useful diagnostic tool if properly implemented, but I think that tying large amounts of money to the test results creates a serious problem. On the other hand, continuing to reward underperforming schools doesn't necessarily make a whole lot of sense to me.
Chris,
I want to address a few points with you. Yes, there are bad teachers. I’ve said as much before. But there are also bad doctors, bad accountants, bad politicians, bad mechanics, bad chefs, etc. etc. etc. Every profession has its bad apples. But maligning an entire profession for the shortcomings of what amounts to a small percentage is not only unfair, but unjust. This is the approach that you have taken. It’s the punish the lot for the behavior of a few approach. I’ve seen poor teachers take this approach themselves. It’s never productive. As for a sub par teacher in my child’s classroom, I can’t say for sure how I would handle that. It has yet to happen. But I can tell you this much, I would never bad mouth the teacher in front of my child. Although I may not agree with methods the teacher is using, the fact remains that the teacher is the authority in the classroom and my child needs to respect that. As for the teacher’s competency, it would take a lot before I would consider the teacher incapable. Here in Illinois, as in most other states, teachers are required to pass a number of barriers before they can obtain a teaching license. I, for instance, had to pass an exam that tested my general knowledge (math, reading, writing, etc.) plus two content area exams; one for secondary education and one for elementary education (my degree is for K-12). The teachers have to know their material before they can be eligible for employment. However, if I were still unhappy with the teacher and I felt that he/she were incompetent, I would voice my concern to the school’s administration.
Now on to NCLB. You say you have spent a lot of time reading about it and I’m sure you have. If nothing else, you appear to be a concerned parent. But let me ask you this: When you learned to drive, did you do so by just reading about it? When you learned to repair aircraft engines, did you do so by just reading about it? Of course you didn’t. My point is, reading about NCLB isn’t enough to fully understand it. You have to experience it first hand. Of course it looks good on paper. Most things do. And depending on where your reading material came from, it could be slanted to one side or the other. But have you ever come up with an idea that sounds great and looks good when you plan it but it just won’t work in real life? That’s NCLB. Take it from me, someone who has actually seen it in action, it doesn’t work the way it’s supposed to. Now before you claim that I’m just a teacher whose whining about being held accountable, ask yourself this: If the majority of physicians said that the latest innovations in treatment for heart disease were causing cancer, would you believe them or would you say they were whining because the treatment method was too much paper work?
As for multiple choice testing, well sometimes the students know the material and sometimes they don’t. Let’s take math, for example. The test that the state of Ill
Illinois uses to satisfy our testing requirement is the ACT. All juniors in the sate have to take this test. Part of the exam deals with mathematics, specifically at the Algebra II level. Since most Algebra is solving for an unknown variable, it’s not that difficult to work the problems backwards. Insert the choices given back into the equation in place of the variable to see which one works out. This requires no math skills above basic addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. So this isn’t testing their knowledge of the subject, but how well they can get around the problem. Another problem with the multiple choice format comes in procedure. Have you ever made a mistake in your check book? Say like three weeks ago, you accidentally subtracted wrong and then when your bank statement comes you’re $20.00 off. Well, this is an issue with the multiple choice test. If the student makes a simple mistake in computation but works the entire problem correctly otherwise, they still receive no credit. Now let’s look at these two situations. The latter is concerned with whether or not the students are learning the proper procedures for solving algebraic equations. The former is an example of a test taking technique. Which is it that we would rather be measuring? In life they’re not given four possible answers, they’re expected to work through the process. So you see, multiple choice doesn’t always mean that they know the material or not.
As for a student’s inability to write a complete sentence, there’s a simple reason for that. Multiple choice tests don’t test a student’s writing skills. Here in Illinois, we used to give an exam to our middle school students known as the ISAT (Illinois Skills Assessment Test or something) and it tried to test writing. It gave the students a writing prompt and they had a certain amount of time to compose an essay. What they found was that it was too difficult and costly to evaluate all of these essays, so they scrapped the idea. Therefore, if it’s not going to be tested, why spend precious instructional time covering it when your funding isn’t going to be affected by it. Keep in mind, this is not the decision of the teachers, but of the higher-ups who are only concerned about test scores and the amount of funding tied to said score. The teachers would much rather teach sentence structure than how to eliminate choices on a multiple choice exam.
You say that kids in this country are not doing so hot compared with other nations. You don’t seem to realize that our method of schooling is not comparable to other nations. Here in the US we teach to the masses. Education is all things to all students. Everyone learns math, science, reading, and writing. In many schools around the world, this is not the case. For instance, in Japan, children are separated at a very early age and sent to schools specific to their talents. If they are talented in math, they go to a math school. This is th
This is the same across much of Europe and other countries along the Pacific rim. So when we see the math and science scores of students from other countries, we have to keep in mind that they are only testing those students who are attending the math and science schools. Those students don’t have to deal with the same drawbacks we have here in the US. When Johnny goes to math class here in Anytown, USA, he is in a class with students of many different ability levels and with many different motivational levels. It’s the teacher’s job to make sure that all students are getting the information necessary to pass their NCLB required test. Therefore, Johnny is getting educated at a level attainable by all, not necessarily the level he is working at. So the comparison with other nations is somewhat akin to the old apples to oranges metaphor.
Now on to that student who can’t read at the 12th grade level upon graduation. We were discussing AYP earlier. I’m sure that in your reading about NCLB you’ve come across the term “subgroups.” These subgroups are important to every school meeting AYP. They are the minority students, the impoverished students, the special needs students, etc. Maybe the reason that Johnny can’t read at the twelfth grade level upon graduation is because he falls into one of the aforementioned subgroups, namely the special needs category. Now I can’t speak for Washington, so ‘m going to use Illinois as the example again. Here in Illinois, it takes 40 students to constitute a subgroup. My wife’s school district has over 40 special needs kids. If a large enough percentage of those special needs kids don’t achieve the NCLB required score, the subgroup is classified as failing. And what test do the special needs students take? Well, they take the exact same test as everybody else does. The ACT.
You can check out the ACT’s website to get the exact wording, but the test is designed to predict a student’s success in college. It’s designed for students who are performing at grade level. Now let’s talk about special needs students for just a second. What is it that gets them classified as special needs? Well, they all have some disability. It may be physical, like a birth defect. It may be sensory, such as blindness or deafness. It could be emotional. Or it could be a mental disability. In some cases, the disability does not affect a students ability to learn and reason, but in other cases, it most certainly does. One of my best friends is the special education teacher at my school. Many of the students in her class are performing significantly below their grade level due to a disability. Every year she teaches them to tell time on an analog clock. Every year they work on many of the same assignments that they worked on the year before. Most of them read at a fourth or fifth grade level. But when they are juniors, they take the ACT right along with everyone else. They take a test designed for students in
the eleventh grade who are presumed to be working at the eleventh grade level. What do you think their chances of passing this exam are? If you’re saying slim to none, you’re right. But they still take the test. And if there are enough of them in the district to constitute a subgroup, the district will pay the price and be put on “academic watch” because it is the performance of the subgroups that determines AYP. This is what is happening in my wife’s district. My school doesn’t have enough special needs students to constitute a subgroup, but hers does and they’ve been labeled a failing school because their special needs subgroup didn’t meet the goal. This is despite the fact that the non-subgroup category did very well. In fact, they had a girl that earned a perfect score. To put that in perspective, there were only fourteen perfect scores on the ACT test all of last year throughout the whole country.
Now to say that Johnny can’t read at the twelfth grade level upon graduation may sound, on the surface, like a major problem. But if Johnny began high school reading at the fifth grade level and graduates reading at the eighth grade level, wouldn’t you agree that he has accomplished something? Unfortunately, according to NCLB, he’s a failure. Enough Johnny’s and the entire school district is a failure. How fair is this? Sounds a lot like punishing the lot for the behavior (in this case achievement) of a few.
NCLB is well intentioned. But you know what they say: the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Until the system is made to account for all types of students, it will not work. We don’t need to continually test these kids to know that they aren’t performing well. We know that special needs and minorities and impoverished kids score lower than the rest. We don’t need a test to tell us that. What NCLB has given us is a means to determine what we already know, not a means to fix it. It approaches the problem from the wrong side.
Now I’ve rambled on long enough for tonight. It’s midnight here and I have to get up in the morning for church. I would like to talk more about this and explain what I think is a possible solution to the problem, but that’s going to have to wait until another time. I would also like to discuss the other issues you raised: money, school year length, teacher’s unions, etc., but like I said, another time. This is enough for now.
kissfan, as far as I'm concerned, teachers are the unsung heroes of our nation. Imagine how much better off we'd be as a country if our teachers were treated with the respect and compensation they deserve! They're always talking about the justification for paying CEOs obscene amounts of money 'to ensure that they attract the best candidates' - who propmtly run the comany into the ground, bail out with a golden parachute and move on to eviscerate some other company. How about applying that same logic to teachers, the molders of our future?
My stepmom was a teacher for 50 years, and I saw first-hand how much uncompensated time and money and dedication she gave to her job. She's retired now, and she says in today's climate, she wouldn't be able to teach. I have 4 kids in school - the oldest in college, the youngest in first grade. We live in a pretty decent school district, but with the funding cuts, the teachers are having to beg parents for the most rudimentary supplies to cover the shortfall. This is not counting what teachers donate out of their own pockets, starting with school supplies, and finishing with extra time at school for which they are not paid.
Something has got to change. I feel a rant coming on...
I know what you mean Alicia. Not to sound lke a whiner, but I probably spend a couple hundred dollars out of my own pocket each year for things that I need at school. The same goes for my wife. It's just for stuff that the school is unable to provide for us.
I've made the point a few times, and kissfan can attest to this i believe, that while some people will make the claim that teachers are actually overpaid (because they supposedly suck), i argue that if they suck, or if anyone wants to argue that, it's because they are underpaid.
It doesn't take a genius to know that if the starting salary for teachers was, say, $120,000/yr, competition for teaching positions would absolutely sky-rocket. The great teachers would be replaced by superlative teachers, the good teachers would be replaced by great teachers, and the fair/not so good teachers would be replaced by really good teachers.
I'm not for runaway spending on education any more than anyone else is, because i'm sympathetic to the argument that just throwing money at something won't fix it if it's a problem. I do find it ironic, however, that "throwing money" at education makes you wasteful, but simply "throwing money" at defense makes you strong on defense.
Right on, Ickabod - that's exactly how I see it. kissfan, you're not a whiner, you're a hero. I only have to read what you write, what you see as important, what your values are, to know what kind of a teacher you are - you're hella good, and the same for Mrs. kissfan.
BTW, that wasn't anonymous, that was me forgetting to fill in my name...
Thank you, Alicia. And Mrs. kissfan thanks you as well.
KissFan, I agree with one of your pionts about NCLB. The subgroups testing at the same level is a flaw with the system. I have ecountered this in my experiance in the subgroup of kids who are ESL. The group starts they year with say 35 kids who don't speak proficient english, and some improve and move to regular english classes. This would show improvement towards AYP lets say. But then more kids come into the school who are not proficient and it has the effect of keeping the subgroup below passing. Thus the school get put on the watch list, and it doesn't meet AYP. Now this is no fault of the school the teacher, or students, but a flaw with the system. Your example of kids with some sort of disability is also a flaw.
How ever, this is not in my mind sufficient to indite the entire system. WHen I said that kids were not graduating at 12 grade able to read, and do math, and so on, this was a problem present long long before NCLB.
I don't necessarily believe its new teachers that are the problem teachers. The teachers I had when I was a kid, counting jr high and sr high, were teachers who had been there for ages. In the Air Force we called them "ROAD" sargents.
TBC.
"ROAD" stands for Retired On Active Duty. People just passing the time barely doing their jobs and already mentally checked out of the job.
I don't believe that I have to be a teacher to understand the impact of NCLB. I think that is a way to try to stop people from making judgements about your work as teachers. I don't have to be an astronaut to understand what they are doing and why, and how to fix problems when things go wrong. There are other people who can have intimate knowledge of the system and its flaws, and don't spend every day in a class room.
I believe that the underlaying purpose of NCLB is three fold. One is to get public schools up to speed and turning out better students. Two its to force a confrontation between school officials, and parents. Schools start to underperform parents are going to want to know why and teachers in many many areas of the country are going to say to the parents that they MUST become more involved as parents. This effect may be intentional or not I am not sure. Three is going to be setting the ground work for things like school vouchers. People, many people would not send their kids to public school if they could pay the cost of tuition at a private or parochial school.
I look forward to your comments about unions money and time off...
C.
I keep hearing about these bad teachers. Frankly I'd like to know where they are. I've been a part of the education system for over 30 years, either as a student, a parent, a substitute, or volunteer. I have yet to come across one of those ROAD types. Yeah, I've encountered a few grouchy hardliners, and some over the top oldies, but I have NEVER encountered a lazy, uncaring, teacher. Never. A few pricipals, and supervisors left a lot to be desired, but the teachers have all been caring, compassionate, and dedicated. Frankly I think a good many people want to lay the blame on lazy/bad teachers when the truth is it's lazy/bad parents who are to blame. And yes, I've met plenty of those!
My experience in this topic is admittedly limited, but i have to echo Wanda's point. Sure, you're going to have cases in every profession where some aren't as good as others. But as a whole, i have to feel that the "blame the teachers" game is nothing more than using them as a scapegoat for poor parenting. I can't think of one example where i ever had the feeling that a teacher was simply in it for the ability to take summers off.
This may be straying somewhat from the main point, but as far as the difference between the success of public and private schools, i have to think 2 things are in play. 1)A parent is less likely to place their child in a private school - and take on the added cost - if their child just doesn't show above average abilities to begin with. and 2)I have to think that a parent who does spring for a private school is going to take a far greater interest in the day to day effort that child puts into his or her schoolwork. And while not the be all and end all, i would suggest those 2 issues have a pretty good sized influence on the differing results.
Chris,
It’s more than just a flaw in the system. It IS the system. The main focus of NCLB is to close the achievement gap for “disadvantaged students.” Remember the phrase “the soft bigotry of low expectations?” That’s what they are referring to. The achievement gap. Therefore, the focus of NCLB is on the subgroups. If they fail for whatever reason, the district fails. Until that is changed, NCLB as it is written, will not work.
Now maybe I’ve given you the wrong impression at some point, but I’m not against all testing. I think that standardized tests can be a very effective tool for a school district if they are used correctly. But tying a school’s funding to the outcome of a single test that may or may not reflect the actual abilities of a student, is not the proper use of a standardized test.
WHen I said that kids were not graduating at 12 grade able to read, and do math, and so on, this was a problem present long long before NCLB.
You’re right. But these cases were rare. For every one student that graduated without the ability to read, there were thousands that graduated who could.
"ROAD" stands for Retired On Active Duty. People just passing the time barely doing their jobs and already mentally checked out of the job.
I agree with wanda, on this. If there are “ROAD” teachers, they are very few and far between. I won’t deny that things like this may happen, but this is one of the reasons why a lot of states have offered early retirement options. Here in Illinois, teachers can retire as early as 50, if they qualify. It’s a way to get young teachers in and reward those that have put a number of years into the profession.
I don't believe that I have to be a teacher to understand the impact of NCLB. I think that is a way to try to stop people from making judgements about your work as teachers. I don't have to be an astronaut to understand what they are doing and why, and how to fix problems when things go wrong. There are other people who can have intimate knowledge of the system and its flaws, and don't spend every day in a class room.
This is one of the most arrogant statements I have ever read. It’s statements like this that make me think I’m wasting my time even discussing this with you. I would never think of telling someone for who’s job I have no training, that I understand what they do and how to fix it. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, until you’ve worked as a teacher, you don’t have a clue. You can read all you want. It doesn’t amount to anything. Trust me, all teachers go through the same thing. We train for this in college. We study the different learning styles. We study the different teaching methods. We observe other teachers. We even get to practice when we do our student teaching. But then you get your first job and you realize that you had no clue how much work was involved. It’s all day, every day. Planning lessons, grading papers, t
teaching classes, going to outside events, calling parents, attending meetings, serving on committees, taking classes to maintain your certification. And it starts over every year. For the nine months that school is in session, it’s like this every day. And for the three months that school is not in session, it’s always on your mind.
Now you obviously have a low opinion of public school teachers. You’re not alone. Some of those opinions may even be well-founded. But at the end of the day, all you’re doing is complaining. If you really want to do something about it, go back to school and get your teaching degree. Then you can show us how terrible we are. I’m sure you won’t have any trouble getting through college. You obviously know all you need to already. And then when you’re a teacher, you can show us all how it’s done. After all, you think the majority of us suck. So I’m sure you’ll have no problems getting a job. I’m sure it will be a breeze for you.
So by your estimation every school board member that has not been a teacher, every administrator who has not been a teacher is not "qualified to have a valid opinion" Give me a break. I don't have to be a pilot to understand why back marker indicators are not displayed in an ADI indicator. I know that there can be several things wrong, but I don't have to be in the cockpit to understand the discrepancy.
I don't think the majority of teachers suck, I think they are bogged down in a system that costs too much is suffocating in a beuaracracy, and needed to be fixed. If a school district is getting $7723.00 and they can't graduate kids who can read and do math proficently and a private school can I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO SEND MY KIDS THERE. If a private school can do a better job with less money, I should be able to take my money with me to a private school. If teachers are spending too much time teaching kids to pass an assessment test then there should be more school days. This is all really simple stuff, and it dosen't take an Einstien to figure it out.
As for changing the system in other ways, well remember when Bill Bennnett was the Sec. of Ed? He wanted to start tracking students like you talked about earlier. I seem to remember the unions and teachers having a screaming fit about it. So get over yourself, I don't have to be a teacher to understand, the workings of my kids school. There is incentive to tie money to achivement, and I should be allowed to have a voucher to send my kids where I want, not where the government says is ok.
C.
So now who’s convoluting what’s being said? Nowhere did I say that you or anyone else wasn’t “qualified to have a valid opinion.” Where the hell did you get that? I didn’t say anything of the sort. Besides, what qualifications do you need to have an opinion? Everybody has opinions. That doesn’t mean that you know what you’re talking about, but you’re entitled to your opinions. As far as school board members and administrators go, you seem to be a little misguided. School board members are entitled to their opinions (just like you) but they are there to decide on budgetary and policy issues. They have no say in curriculum. And administrators have to possess a valid teacher’s certificate to be qualified for their positions. So they are, in essence, teachers. I’ll repeat, if you haven’t been a teacher, you don’t know. You can only speculate.
Now I don’t have a clue what you’re talking about when you say an “ADI indicator.” However, you do because you were in the Air Force. See what I mean? Experience means a great deal.
I don't think the majority of teachers suck...
Really? Because earlier in this thread you said:
Many teachers suck, like it or not.
Now maybe many and majority don’t actually mean the same thing, but you did use the word suck in reference to what amounts to a large number of teachers. Once again, it’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. I don’t have to agree with it nor does it mean that you are right, but hey, that’s what’s so great about this country. Right? Now let’s get to this money thing.
This discussion was originally about NCLB, but you seem intent on discussing funding instead. You keep bringing up the number $7723.00. Is that instructional expenditure or operating expenditure. The school report card should say which it is. There’s a distinct difference between the two. Operational expenditure is the total amount spent by the school district divided by the number of students in the district. It includes expenditures for services like transportation, custodial and maintenance staff, cafeteria staff, office staff, etc. However the instructional expenditure includes the direct costs of teaching pupils or the interaction between teachers and pupils. Instructional expenditures usually average about 60% of operational expenditures. If your number is an operational expenditure then your instructional cost per child is probably somewhere around $4633.00. Nevertheless, this does not mean that each student gets the entire benefit of either amount. Most of the expenditure will go towards those students that are disadvantaged by way of special programs and a portion of it goes to pay the salaries of the teachers and the administrators. This does not meant that $7000 is spent directly on the education of each individual child. Besides, averages can be misleading numbers. If Bill Gates moved to my town, the average net worth of every citizen would go up to about $12 mi
million. Chances are, the actual money spent on each individual child’s education is very small. This is part of the problem. That’s not to say that spending more per child is the answer. But we’ll get to that in a minute.
Let’s talk about kids who are graduating and can’t read or do math, because you’re really hung up on that. Who are these people? What are your sources for this information and where are the numbers? Some time ago, there was such a thing as social promotion. Schools were passing students despite their obvious deficiencies because they were good athletes or because their family had money or whatever. I think the most famous case of that was the Washington Redskins football player (Daryl Manley, maybe?) who revealed after his playing career had ended that he couldn’t read. Social promotion is unacceptable. I wish I could say that it is no longer taking place, but I can’t say that for sure. I can say that schools have cracked down on it and I have never worked in a school that has engaged in the practice. But I’d like to see your sources for your information.
Now, you keep stating that private schools can do a better job for less money. Once again, what are your sources for this? Where are you getting your numbers? If you’re going to make this claim, you have to be able to back it up. I’ve not known this to be true, but if you’ve got the numbers from a reliable source, I’m willing to look at them.
And Bill Bennett. Talk about convoluting. Bennett was the Sec of Ed for Reagan from 1985-1988. I was in school at this time. We were already being tracked long before he was appointed to the position. It wasn’t his idea. The reason that teachers and teachers’ unions opposed him wasn’t because of tracking, it was because he was promoting an education reform policy that was almost identical to what is now NCLB. It was bad policy then and it’s bad policy now. His plans included:
*competency testing for teachers
*opening the teaching profession to knowledgeable individuals who have not graduated from "schools of education"
*performance-based pay
*holding educators accountable for how much children learn
*an end to tenure
*a national examination to find out exactly how much our children know
*parental choice of schools
Sound familiar? I think I’m starting to understand where your position on education comes from. A hypocritical man of “virtue.”
Now let’s talk about education. You seem to see things as black and white. Either they know the material or they don’t. Well, unfortunately there’s much more to the issue. Let’s say that education is like an algebra equation. Something like:
y=f(x) where y is a function of x. Let’s say that y represents learning and x represents the different factors that contribute to learning. Therefore, the higher the value of x, the higher the value of y. By replacing the variables with education q
qualities, our problem would look like this:
learning=f(home, community, school administration, teacher, student motivation, intelligence, instructional materials, cultural influences, parental support, etc.)
If any one of those factors that make up our x variable are lacking, then learning suffers. It’s not all the fault of the parents or the teachers or the student or their background, etc., etc., etc. But they all contribute. To lay the blame entirely upon teachers is pretty naive.
You know, I wish that things were as easy as you make them out to be, but the reality is that they are not. Education is a very complex thing. Reading about it only scratches the surface.
By the way, do your kids go to public or private school?
Now, you keep stating that private schools can do a better job for less money. Once again, what are your sources for this? Where are you getting your numbers? If you’re going to make this claim, you have to be able to back it up. I’ve not known this to be true, but if you’ve got the numbers from a reliable source, I’m willing to look at them.
I'd also like Chris (or anyone else) to address my point. If there is a discrepancy in the apparent effectiveness of public vs private schools, how much of that is somewhat self determined? In other words, how much is caused by the quality of students that are placed in private schools to begin with - along with the extra oversight mom and dad are going to put in if they're footing the bill for the private school.
I work in the utility industry - electric to be specific. With the onset of deregulation and competition, being the originating utility in the area, my company is what's relied upon to be the "utility of last resort". What that means is, while customers have an option of who to use for their supplier of electricity, the "voluntary suppliers" aren't required to enter into a contract with anyone they don't want to. This leaves high risk customers (renters, college students, peoplel with poor payment histories) with nowhere to turn. Thus, they become, by default, customers of the "utility of last resort". So my company ends up with all the customers that no other company would want to serve. And therefore, my company has collections problems that other companies don't have to deal with. And if you just looked at the bottom line write off from year to year from uncollectible debt, my company would look piss poor relative to the other companies. But given their advantage in being able to cherry pick customers, it's impossible to simply say they are better at collecting than my company is.
I'm guessing the same problem applies to public schools. When you get the kids that don't have the means or family to get them into a private school, well, it's only natural your results won't match up.
Or am i missing the boat here?
No, Ickabod, you're on the boat. The fact that their parents have made the choice to send them to private school in the first place is usually an indicator that Mom & Dad are involved in the child's education. And as we all know, parental involvement makes a big difference. Private schools don't get the kids with uncaring parents. They don't get the poverty stricken or the special needs students either. It's really not a fair comparison.
Many teachers suck. Gather all of them from around the nation you would have what, a stadium full? More? Less? I don't know for sure. I can look back at my high school and name five with out cracking a year book. I also had some exceptional teachers who engaged me in stuff I did not like or care about, namely eglish literature, and history.
My kids go to public school. My wife was a teacher in South Dakota, and she also taught in Las Vegas. Talk about a contrast! She was an english teacher for 8th through 12th in SD and 9th throught 12th in LV. She has loads of materaials on this subject, one book in particular by Bennett, but I can't find it right now. I will locate it though. (BTW, she is a staunch liberal)
*competency testing for teachers
*opening the teaching profession to knowledgeable individuals who have not graduated from "schools of education"
*performance-based pay
*holding educators accountable for how much children learn
*an end to tenure
*a national examination to find out exactly how much our children know
*parental choice of schools
I like that you posted this. What is it about each of these you don't like?
Each one is kind of hard to argue with if you ask me.
I know I am skipping around on this stuff, and skipping loads. I am short on time as tomorrow is my anniversary, and I am kinda busy. I will write more as time allows. I know you said you are busy with school and studies and family. I kinda hate that summer is almost at an end, but at the same time I look forward to Autumn. I wil try to write more tomorrow.
C.
A stadium full? Hmmm, let's see. According to the NEA and the AFT membership stats, there are currently 4.1 million teachers that belong to the two unions. There are many more that do not belong, but we'll go with their numbers since anything else would be mere speculation. You say a stadium full. I say you could be right. But when you look at it, an average stadium holds about 50,000 people. 50,000 out of 4.1 million is 1.2%. So by your own estimation that means that you would agree that over 98% of all teachers don't "suck." Right? I'll take those odds.
As far as Bennett's proposal, I can find plenty to argue with.
*competency testing for teachers
Teachers are already required to pass exams over basic skills and subject matter prior to obtaining a teaching certificate. This is a rouse to make people think that teachers can just walk right in and get a certificate. We're already competent or we wouldn't be able to teach.
*opening the teaching profession to knowledgeable individuals who have not graduated from "schools of education"
Bad idea. Just because someone knows the subject doesn't mean they can teach it. Remember Magic Johnson as a coach? Great ball player, ineffective coach.
*performance-based pay
Bad idea. This is what was taking place in Texas when the Houston Independent School District was caught cheating. Remember the "Texas Miracle?" The test scores were used to award bonuses to the administration from the high achieving districts. When there's money to be had, people cheat.
*holding educators accountable for how much children learn
Once again, this is a misleading statement put out to erode the public's trust. We, as teachers, have always been accountable for how much the children learn. Standardized testing isn't new. It's been around for years and when the results come back negative, it's the teachers who are held accountable. This is to make people think that teachers are elitists, above the law. It's misleading.
*an end to tenure
Tenure is a widely misunderstood thing. Most people think that it means that a teacher can't be fired. This is completely untrue. Tenured teachers can be fired. But it requires that there be just cause and that the district follows proper procedure. When a school district grants a teacher tenure, it means "we trust you to make the right decision." Non-tenured teachers can be let go at any time without any reasons given. Tenure provides the teacher with a little job security. It's a vote of confidence, if you will.
*a national examination to find out exactly how much our children know
This would require that every school teach the same thing at the same time the same way. That would be considered a national curriculum and would not go over well. For instance, did you know that in Texas the seventh graders learn only about Texas history? That's great if you live in Texas. H
Here in Illinois, that wouldn't mean much. But I think you'd have a hell of a time getting Texas to give it up.
*parental choice of schools
You already have parental choice. You can send your child to any school you like assuming you pay the out-of-district fee that the school requires. Don't like the school in your neighborhood, that's fine. You can send them to the next nearest school. Just pay the fee and you're in.
BTW - Happy Anniversary. I hope you got the present thing all worked out. I remember you were stressing about it a while back.
One more thing:
I also had some exceptional teachers who engaged me in stuff I did not like or care about, namely eglish literature, and history.
Apparently they didn't get you too engaged in that English, eh?
J/K ;^)
I don't know if any one answered, but wasn't it, "And they're ugly, too."?
Oh, never mind.... wrong answer, anyway!
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