Please don't type in all CAPS, it's the equivalent to YELLING, let alone hard to read, thank you.
Referendums are nice, however, watch what President Bush will say today after meeting Turkish PM Ardogan in the White House. What ever Bush says is what will happen in Northern Iraq.
But Bush lies! YEEEEAAAAAHHHHH!
I'm not so sure, Mountaineer. Despite what Kurdo thinks, the Kurds are still too immature to see the big picture, and will be more than happy to stab the US in the back to their own detriment.
G
If they want it to be properly representative, they should be pushing for a country wide referendum, since what happens to one part of Iraq effects ALL of Iraq.
Simon has a good point- northern Iraq isn't only a Kurd concern. All of Iraq should be involved in the referendum.
I feel Kurds are going about it in the wrong way, trying to seperate themselves from Iraq. I think they would be smart to take the current steps in the Iraqi new gov. Their influence will increase alot if they are a part if Iraq.
I did not support the removal of Saddam so that the Kurds could tear the country apart. I would regard this action as a betrayal by the
Kurds, whom we tried to protect for ten years. If you want to do it in the next generation, and peacefully, then fine, but right now it is a self-serving action. I will be very wary of supporting Kurd desires in the future.
I cant belive what im seeing with my eyes, was it not the americans who once like the kurds fought the oppression of the british empire under king george from the freedom and rightto rule their own nation?
why should it be different for us kurds. we have fought with our own blood for the majority of the 20th century to try and win independence, at one point even the US helped saddam fight us, so wheres the betrayel in demanding our own nation when at point in history George Bush jnrs arch nemisis; saddam hussein was best friend with george bush senior?
Furthermore like a leading kurdish Politician (Kak Nawshirwan Mustafa)said; "what us kurds are demanding for is of no concern to the arabs or turks or any one else, as we are only demanding the right to govern our own land freely and independently, we are asking for what rightly belongs to us; Kurdistan, when we start demandin for land of the arabs and the others then let them complain"
Anyone ever think about something along the lines of "United Republic of Iraq"? You may not even need to change Iraq's name, just have 2 states that are both connected, but different. Think New York + Texas.
Azad,
If you want to fight everybody around you then do it on your own dime. We got rid of Saddam, of course for our own reasons, but you are beneficiaries of that action. To initiate your movement for statehood at this time is going to seriously complicate our efforts underway in the region. And I presume, based on some of the heated words I have read on the message board site, that at least some of you have intention of uniting with the Kurds in Turkey. I have no great concern for the Turks, but that would create severe tension in the area.
[continued]
[continued]
Though wrongs were done in the past, we subsequently spent much time and treasure keeping Saddam off your people. And your oppression has been diminished in that time, and is now further so. You owe us a minimum of due consideration of our concerns. That is the main point I am advocating.
Kurdo does mention that the aim of the group is not to establish a state. Yet in the very next sentence he mentions that as a possibility. If it is all peaceful then I wish you all the best. Otherwise, do it later.
I have no problem with you governing a land you own, but you want land of Iraq, Turkey, Iran, ect..... Iraq will not lose any of its current boarders, if that were to happen the U.S.A. would look weak, do you think the U.S.A will let that happen without its blood or money? I don't want to take this to another level, and I'm really trying to help Kurds by pointing them in a direction that will help them more then trying to take Iraq's land for their state. U.S.A might be defeated in what they want for Iraq, i'm not 100 percent sure on that, though I feel U.S.A. will achieve a good part of what they want short term, they will not lose the battle of keeping Iraq's borders intacked.
Bobby,
U have to take into consieration the fact that you live in a free state which you can call your own county i.e. America.
Every mornong US children go to school and pledge alliegance to the stars and stripes what do kurdish kids have?, i think its just hypocritical for anyone who lives in their own country with all its perks and benefitts and heritage and culture and denies the right of ther peoples to have their own nation.
And as for a united republic of Iraq that would never work with us because everyone in america accepts the fact that english is the official langauge (though there are a lot of hispanics, In Iraq the Kurds and Arabs are completely different, from our food to our dress to the way way interpret islam. In the long run it would just cause tension.
continued...
And I dont think we owe the US anything I mean their the ones who supported the Regimes against us to the point that he chemically bombed us, and left him in power long enough that he became so powerful. and as for defeating Saddam, ha Saddam was a joke, this bullshit of him fighting to the end or he was very powerful and anyother bullshit was all propaganda from the Arab media who wanted to make their beloved Arab ledaer into the next saladin, i mean the iraqi was one million strong what happend to them? truth is most of them disbanded and ran away, not because the US defeated them jus because they were in the Army to have a subsistence living i.e. produce the bare necessties to survive. we Kurds were the ones who fought with every once of blood in our bodies (i mean go to the sorani region of Kurdistan and ask every famil, i doubt you will find any with out a shahid/ martyr in their family!)
Rich
how can u say anything to us about wanting turkey or irans or even iraws land, every metre of land were asking for in kurdish land. you americans are the biggest hypocrits, if u want to talk about taken other peoples lands how about talkin about the land which you took off the Mexicans, e.g. California and most of your west cost or even better the land which you not only stole but massacred the populations off : the nataive indians. so dont talk to us kurds about taken land which doesnt belong to us, when it does and you have to right to prevent us from it
How am I a hypocrit? I don't denie what happen to the Indians. We bought the land from Mexicans, not that they had much choice. I think the U.S.A has the right from stopping you because it will be against our interest and we have the power to stop you?
hehe, Indians! Native Americans, or what ever you want to call them, they had many tribes of different names. They weren't really Indians, we thought we reached India, or were hoping too, oopsie.
Azad :
Well, sounds great, let's cut off our noses to spite our faces, embroil the Kurdish people in further war and bloodshed so that they can have a landlocked, but ethnically pure country with closed borders hated by all of its neighbors. Terrific idea. Your children will be very thankful.
And hey, let's do it at a time when it will completely destroy your relationship with every one of your allies. Wheee! Stone age here we come!!
Look, I respect the Kurdish people and we're all working to make Iraq a place where you can live in peace, freedom, and prosperity, but please, get real.
Azad,
Even before I read your 10:06-7 comment I decided I need to ponder this a little. Maybe I'll be more knowledgeable another day in the future. I have to review the history of the area, at least a little.
As far as the past, we seem to be making a break with our support of the strongmen. I never did like that policy, especially after the Soviet Union folded. Face it, the world was a proxy battlefield between the US and the Soviets for decades.
[continued]
[continued]
But maybe you don't realize the change in the US since September 11, 2001.
I don't want to be a denier of self-determination. But I also think you just dismissed my points straight away. And you belittle the liberation, or invasion if you want to call it that. Yes it was less difficult than planned, but we did not know that it was going to be.
If you can't give some kind of consideration to the people who helped you, even if that help was late in coming, then how are you going to co-exist with the people near you who will oppose you? Looks like the potential for violence is rising.
[continued]
[continued]
I'm not asking for servitude, or anything really, but you seem as if you could care less what our soldiers did. "You're done, get the hell out, now everybody give me what I want." Over 500 hundred of our finest have died so you could be free.
And you guys are being kind of dumb. Like I said in another post, the south has the ports. Iraq as is would be much stronger than the sum of its parts. And in the end, doesn't everyone (who has a job) just go to work and come home every day, no matter what the government? After paying taxes, of course!
See what I mean? Immature. If the Kurds try and break away, every border country would invade, showing you just how stupid one people can be. That's why your people are immature, Azad. You don't know when to pick your battles, bide your time, play the diplomacy game, or have a brain. Your way would just lead to the destruction of all you've built, and if you go against the United States, call us hypocrites, Saddam supporters, what have you, our administration may just let those invading armies have you. Wake up and get real.
G
Here you are seeing the "European Effect" in microcosm. Protect a people against a threat for so long, they actually have the balls to throw it in your face and say they never needed your protection in the first place. People never learn.
G
I have nothing against a federal Iraq, but if the kurdish leaders (Who are corrupt like any) insist on having Kirkuk or drive the Fedral solution into independence, they will cause thier own people more suffering than they have already endured in the past. The foreign advisers who encourage this attitude are not looking into the Kurdish long term aspirations. It is well understood that Kurds want total independence on the long run and I am not debating the fairness of this goal, but I am convinced that now is not the right moment to capitalise.
Guys why all this stress ? I think that some of you guys should read more about the history of Iraq.
To some, the history of Iraq starts from 1991 when Iraq turned against USA.
Iraq has a history of only 83 years. Iraq is an artificial country and its borders were drawn by the British Foreign Embassy in 1920.
Since the USA supports the idea of "democracy" and the "power of people" and "freedom", then I guess the Americans should accept the fact that this referendum is going to decide what the people of "Northern Iraq" want.
If they wanted to stay part of Iraq, or they decided to go solo, this is what the Americans have decided to give the people of Iraq "Democracy".
Iraq is an artificial country? Wasn't Baghdad the capital of the Abassid Empire?! If you can say that Iraq is an artificial country then it's safe to say that Kurdistan is non-existent.
Assuming Iraq is only 83 years old, how will it contribute to the stability of the region if you people decide to change around the borders every few decades?
my friend no one can say kurdistan is non existent because kurds and our region predate christianity. And as for bad neighbours, u think were scared of turkey or iran, ha during the late 70's and most of the 80's we kurds with only 25,000 peshmergas and light weapons .i.e ak 47s and RPGs fought the whole of the 1 million of Saddams soldiers, and fought iranians and even intrusions by the turks, and the only reason the peshmerga were forced to leave was because of heavy civilian casualties not peshmerga casualties because of the chemical attacks which at the time was backed by the us and uk
continued...
and the only reason we couldnt crumble saddam was because of the huge amount of oil resources which funded his army, other wise if the war we had of fought against saddam were against the iranians or the turks (whose economy is a shambles)we would have crumbled their governments long time ago. furthermore you lot say a kurdistan would have closed borders and no help from neighbours, well theres nothing new there you lot are acting like during the past 12 years we havent had closed borders, we have been like a bird in a trapped cage, but we still prospered, just go to sleymani and compare our region to say the east of turkey or the west of iran or any other city in iraq. yet even with all closed borders the kurdish peoples would still rather have a kurdistan than an iraq
Iraq is an artificial country and everyone knows that the Britons were the ones who drew the current Iraqi maps.
When Baghdad was the capital of the Abbassid Empire, there wasn't a country called Iraq. There was a country called "The Abbassid Islamic State" and it stretched from France to China with Baghdad as the capital !
Today's "Northern Iraq" or "Iraqi Kurdistan" was known as "Mosul Willayat" or "Mosul State" during the Ottoman Empire ages.
When the Britons decided to to create Iraq, they didn't know what to do with "Mosul Willayat". Turkey was demanding it on the basis that it has Kurds too but the Britons gave it to Iraq because it "Mosul Willayat" or today's "Iraqi Kurdistan" had vast amounts of oil !
Please read some history on Iraq here :
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/arch...1/index-
lb.html
Or click on homepage as it is easier
regards
With the atrocities and hardships that the Kurds suffered on the hands of the oppressive Iraqi governments over the last few decades, a Kurdish separatist feeling is quite understandable. So, a referendum taken today following such suffering, will understandably result in reflecting a sentiment of people wanting to separate from the source of their suffering. However, if a referendum is taken after a free, democratic Iraq is formed, results would be sharply different. Kurds have only seen oppression from Iraqi governments of the past. The fruits of an Iraqi government that is democratic, that safe guards human rights for all, that has a major Kurdish participation will be too hard for the Kurds to forego. So, here is my prediction, Kurdish independence will not happen now because the US will not allow it. Kurdish independence will not happen in the future, because the Kurds will not want it any more when they have lived in a prosperous and free Iraq a few years from now.
BTW, what are you talking about the U.S.A. supporting Saddam when he attacked you with chemical weapons? I admit we supported Saddam in the Iran war, because we thought Iraq was far supieror with their current rights for women, but it ended. I doubt most Iraqi's were that against the U.S.A.. they were to worried about Saddam at the time. I'm sorry about the past 50 years of the Kurds. I have no problems with the Kurds, I really just have a big problem with the ideas they have. Someday, maybe, we can talk about the idea of Kurdistan, though I think if you guys embrace what Iraq is going to become you will love the benefits. The U.S.A is being watched by the world, the world has more interest in Iraq keeping its so called Bristish borders, if we try to right the wrongs of the past currently, we will be deemed failures. Turkey will not allow it to happen currently anyway even if we thought it right, and we don't want a war with a Nation and current Ally.
"Iraq is an artificial country? Wasn't Baghdad the capital of the Abassid Empire?! If you can say that Iraq is an artificial country then it's safe to say that Kurdistan is non-existent."
This is the most beautiful thing I've read today! Thank you!
Commenting by HaloScan
