Please don't type in all CAPS, it's the equivalent to YELLING, let alone hard to read, thank you.
Being apart of a new Iraq is not nothing. The government of Iraq will be about protecting its people first, which would include Kurds. Europe is now trying to form the EU, in example to how powerful a central government along with a states rights government, both form a strong nation. I'm fine with the Kurds deciding to leave, Iraq if they want, I have a big problem with them declaring or some other form of saying this land is ours and no longer a part of Iraq. If Kurds agree to a federal state, then 10 years later declare indenpendance from Iraq, I hate to say that would be a grave day for the world, first and most for the Kurds, then Iraqis, then the rest of the world. I don't think the integerity of the borders of Iraq need to change for the next 20 years. Kurds should be working on creating a bond with the central government and be apart of it that is going to make up future Iraq, and be people of Iraq.
You know, it just isn't possible for every tribe of people in the world to have their own state. The result would be a quick reversion to the Middle Ages. Most such ministates would be economically unviable and unable to take advantage of economies of scale in any of their internal affairs. But every one of these little principalities would, of course, have a full-blown governmental establishment and a mass of impoverished citizens.
It's time for the Kurds to grow up.
Kurdish demands for a SEPARATE state outside of IRAQ will lead to nothing but tears(Kurdish tears).
This is extremely shortsighted thinking and I sincerely hope it does not represent current Kurdish thought.What the Kurds NEED is an autonomous zone wherein they can determine their lifestyles to suit their culture.You are correct to fear and reject Arab nationalism as it does not respect others BUT you are wrong in proposing that faulty solution.
As a previous post said "You know, it just isn't possible for every tribe of people in the world to have their own state. The result would be a quick reversion to the Middle Ages".Kurds need the protection and security of a "Kurdish zone" within IRAQ,not a failing and weak Kurdish "state".Somebody in the region has to start the process of GROWING UP.Hopefully it will be the Kurds who show all the others that "half a loaf is better than no loaf at all".
TIME FOR A CHANGE !!!
Once upon a time the people of the state of South Carolina along with many other southern American states wanted to decide their own fate. The next four years saw more Americans die than at any other time in our history. Be careful what you wish for Kurdo. I have to disagree that this is not a new Iraq. You have generations of people who have seen nothing but torture and tyranny that have the chance of a fresh new start not to mention a new form of government in Iraq. It is just that the borders are the same. If that doesn't define a new country, I don't know what does!
I lean toward agreeing with the other folks commenting. As a 'state' within and as part of Iraq the Kurds stand to gain by being part of a bigger group. There is stregnth in numbers.
I live in the southern part of the USA. In 1860 the south tried to break away from the rest of the union. That led to a bloody, costly war. Fortunately for me, the south lost. We are much stronger as part of the USA than if we had gone on our own. I know the situations are different in many ways. Just stop and see if you can think of any advantages in being a viable part of a future Iraq.
Anonymous's disdainful comment about "tribes" and "little principalities" completely ignores the fact that there over 20 million Kurds in West Asia. I'm not saying that Kurdish national aspirations are the same everywhere as I know it is a complex issue, but I would never dare be so arrogant as to arrogantly dismiss their struggles for self-determination. I'd love to know what "tribe" anonymous belongs to and whether he/she feels like there is a state to which he/she belongs.
N,
I belong to a very large and powerful tribe indeed. It's called the United States of America and contains people from, I think, every other tribe in the world. As far as I know, none of those sub-tribes are demanding their own state.
The problem that I have with your post is that you (correctly) point out that there are some 20 million Kurds in west Asia. So now we aren't talking about Iraq anymore, we're talking about Kurdish claims to parts of at least Turkey, Iran, and Syria as well. Those countries will not allow themselves to be dismembered to satisfy any pan-Kurdish dream. In fact, they would be quite likely to greet any attempts along those lines with great hostility.
Anonymous- To call the USA a tribe is bizarre, but ok, let me follow along with your dubious analogy for a moment. There are indeed "sub-tribes" struggling for autonomy. Take Hawaii, for example, where indigenous Hawaiians have been and continue to work towards this goal. There are even more examples in the case of US territories such as Puerto Rico, which has also has a bonified independence movement. (cont'd)
cont'd from above-
As for what you say about the countries that will fight against a pan-Kurdish movement, you are right. To be an honest, as an Iranian who has a great love for Kurdish-Iranian culture, I would be sad if Iranian Kurdistan was no longer part of Iran. But the aspirations of Kurds are not about what I want or what Iran wants or whatever, so what I was taking issue with was your dismissive tone. Clearly, you have a an attachment to your "great" state, why then do you deny the Kurds their dreams for a state of their own?
I deny the Kurds nothing. I don't have any more power in that regard than do the Kurds when they attempt to deny reality.
The Kurds can get everything that they have asked for as a State within a federal Iraq, except for one thing. That is the largely symbolic "independent nation" of Kurdistan. Yet they appear ready to discard all the concrete aspects of nationhood in favor of the abstract. How silly and how tragic that is.
Ok, Anonymous, I don't want to take up all of Kurdo's bandwidth carrying out our argument here. You can find me through the info I've left here if you want. But a quick point on what you said above-- if a federated state within Iraq would be "largely symbolic" as you say, then in what sense would they have any "concrete aspects of nationhood" anyway?
Right on Kurdo.Your people have the power to defend themselves now.That rankles the Turks,Syrians,Iranians,and Arabic Iraqis.
Never disarm the militia.It would be suicide.And,I still believe an American base or two would be an effective way to hold the savages at bay.Who else can America trust,Sunni or Shia Iraqis? I don't think so.
Hi Kurdo!
I notice you 'radicalize' your opinions on the ways to self-determination every time there has been a demonstration for an independent Kurdistan. I try to imagine you in the crowd, united with your fellow Kurds, shouting slogans for an independent Kurdistan, convincing each other of the fact that 'another world' must be possible. I've given you my opinion on this before. In short: stick to some UN protected statute for some more years. This becomes more 'possible' every day, now the Americans themselves are leaning toward an UN solution: see
http://news.independent.co.uk/wo...ry=491736\">The Independent today. Why risk loosing the international credit the Kurds have now? But instead of repeating myself, something else: ever thought about dropping some pics of the demonstrations here? As there is not very much attention to them in the Western media... Make sure you're on it yourself! Grtz
Woeps! Messed up that link... I'll try again.
Article in The Independent today
Rich..
We have heard the same stories over and over again from the New Iraqis. Through 3 regime changes in Iraq, Iraqis mentality hasn't changed. Read it here :
http://kurdo.blogspot.com/
2004_0...547207096309935
Anonymous
It is very sad how some people call a nation with a language, culture, history etc a "tribe" !
do u know anything about the basics of democracy ? Or are you just repeating what you hear from the Media ?
It seems like our Iranian neighbours know more about democracy than your tribe! This because the Iranian tribe has 5000 years of history, culture, and civilisation, something your tribe lacks.
Doug F.
Why will it be a disaster ? Kurds want to decide on their own fate.. why this is a disaster ? I thought that one of the basics of democracy is to vote on your fate right ? Why democracy is a disaster ? Are you sure you are not one of Saddam's supporters ? or a New Iraqi ?
cont
cont...
Anonymous
Then how can u decide on what Kurds want? Is this your democarcy ? Or a dictatorship hidden under Democarcy name? How can you be so sure on Kurds fate ? Have u been through what we have been through ? if not I suggest that you conduct a research on what Kurds want before jumping into a conclusion.
Irani blogger.
Thanks for your comments. I assure you that we love our Iranian neighbours because we share blood and history and culutre. We will live peacefully together along all the other natoins in the middle east for ever..
Kristof Daniels
Thanks again for your comments.. You are right there is no so much attention on the pro-referendum demonestrations..this is because something the Americans and the New Iraqis don't want to hear.. but I found an article on BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middl...ast/
3486504.stm
cont
Read the qoute from the referendum text extract it is very realistic and powerful :
"Few of us feel Iraqi any more - a younger generation has grown up in freedom, learning Kurdish, not Arabic. For the older generation, Iraq is mostly a bad nightmare "
Regards and thanks all for your great comments
one of the main principles of democracy and human rights is "self-determination-rights".
I see no reasons why some big-headed people becomes furious when Kurds talk about "self-determination-rights"..
I challenge anyone of u to become a Kurd for one day.. and see how it is to live without your self-determination-rights.
and to this guy "Anonymous"..what kind of tribe is 40 million ? you must be a facist Turkish or Iraqi.
xxx all
sairan
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