"Instead, two unisex bathrooms in the building will be made available. "
Huh? We have unisex bathrooms in grade schools?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"there's something amiss with the boy and his family (can you say "dominant mother/wimpy father?")..."
Me's inclined to suspect that this could be a case of "Johnny (Heather) Has Two Mommies"...
http://gray.intrasun.tcnj.edu/Ge...GBT%
20books.htm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What in the word has happened to Colorado?
How is being female like being Pol Pot?
She has a RIGHT to be who she feels she is, and her parents are very brave for acknowledging that. Others might have a PREFERENCE not to be exposed to that, but if it does not infringe on their own capacity for choice and free will, then there's no basis for denying her.
Instead of getting all bent out of shape about one little transsexual girl, perhaps we should all be more concerned with oh, I don't know, war and crime and children raising themselves because their parents are never at home or, or, or...
it is so sad that people are so close minded. You people who have the nerve to call a child "perverse" or label TSism as a "perversion" really need to wake up. If you spent just one day in their shoes I seriously doubt that you would be spreading hate speech and outright lies.
Laer,
The highschools you grew up in did have this issue.
You just didn't know it.
I was born transgender.
I began to be aware of it arround the time I was 4 or so.
It's not somthing someone can choose.
It isn't curable or reversable.
People like me didn't come out about it in high school because they were terrified.
Now people are knowledgeable enough to be supportive.
It has nothing to do with sex either.
Or sexual orrientation.
It isn't caused by parrents or outside influences.
Research shows that people who are born this way are neurologically wired (read have the nervous system) of thier gender.
This isn't somthing anybody can have any control over. The only thing people can do is accept people who are born this way or ostracise them.
It's your choice.
I didn't chose this.
I didn't nessicarily want it.
It has been difficult and a source of a lot of pain for me.
Hardly an enjoyable past time.
The medical profession is quite clear about this.
If you want, I would suggest looking into the subject in detail, rather than just writing it off as somthing that is a perversion.
What are you afraid of?
Some people are born blind. Others are born with their neurological gender wiring messed up.
You would demonise the sick for being sick?
Or the alternately born for being born?
That's no way to live a civilization.
That just leads to prejudice, incomprehension, and intollerance.
Is that the kind of world you want to live in?
A world where people hate each other for being different?
They used to pick on the retarded children too.
Are you that low, that you would pick those you don't understand to be targets based on fear?
My friend, there is no attack on you here.
Nobody means you any harm.
Sara
I'm a RWDB from way back, and of similar political kidney to the author.
The name used to be Alan when I contributed to TCP. But I'm Intersexed, and Transsexual, so that had to change.
Rather than say more, I invite the author and readers to have a look at ts-101. Not opinion, just medical facts. Then come to your own conclusions, without the propaganda.
I have to laugh when I see conservatives who don't realize they are shooting themselves in the foot with this silliness. They are playing right into the hands of the radical feminists who claim that our sense of being male and female is determined solely by how we are brought up.
They overlook certain facts. First, our sense of being boys and girls, or men and women, is hard wired into the brain before we are born. It cannot be changed. You can't raise a boy to be a girl, or a girl to be a boy, no matter what the feminists claim. Next, they wish to ignore the fact that things can, and do go wrong. The biological mechanism that determines if one's brain is wired female or male can go wrong. When that happens, you have a condition that used to be called "transsexualism" and is now referred to by some as "Harry Benjamin Syndrome." This is not a choice, but is something that is present from before birth. There is no way to reverse this at this time. You can either try to force the child to conform to something, and have the resulting problems, or you can accomodate the child, and produce a person without the damage that normally results.
Of course, the conservatives are no better than the radical feminists. They think they can "mold" this child into something she is not. Down the road, the child will still do what she has to do, but by then, she will have suffered a lot of pain, and have a lot of problems because of it. The radical feminists would say she should be encouraged to embrace her gender variance, and express it as a revolution against society. The conservatives say she should be forced to conform to their standards. Better to let the child grow up as normal as possible, and that means as a girl.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I was particularly touched by Sara's.
I am, however, concerned about the effect on the other children in the room, who at age 8, are not able to process this information, and shouldn't even be exposed to these sorts of questions regarding sexuality. What possible harm would come from the child waiting, having several more years of counseling to prepare him for being publicly her, then going forward?
I see no reason for the school to embrace this action for a second grader, with the confusion it will cause the other second graders. In their rush to be tolerant and not be judgmental, I fear they will do all parties more harm than good.
Laer,
I love your concern for all those eight year old children. I just wonder if that's really your concern. Exactly what sort of nefarious thinking are you afraid that children will be indoctrinated with?
My current nine-year old doesn't seem to have a problem with his mother who has been transitioning/ed since he was five. He has been told age-appropriate and understandable facts about what has gone on. He seems perfectly well-adjusted, shows no signs of ever wishing to 'be a girl' or any of the difficulties you seem to think he might have from such a 'traumatic' experience as having his 'father' be who she actually is.
Hmm, just curious, could the problem be your own fear and loathing instead of some altruistic concern for the 'children?'
I don't know what sorts of contact you have or have had with children; but I think maybe you should understand that they are pretty resilient and accepting of many ideas about divergence provided someone who isn't totally prejudiced and fearful is 'teaching' them.
Nichole
Yes, Laer, I have to agree with Nichole...this is not contagious. The other children are not going to decide to change sex, just because one of them does. In fact, if it is handled correctly, they don't even need to know.
I love how you people thrust homophobia on me. It's silly, which you'd know of you knew me or my background ... I grew up around gays, one of my best friends in college decided to have a sex change operation and we stayed friends, and I'm close to many gay men now.
I am very well aware that sexual preference is non-contagious -- but sexuality is. If sexuality and permissiveness permeates society, norms change -- and changed norms means people do things they wouldn't have done before so what is that? Contagion? Take, for example, oral sex. It used to be more risque than conventional sex, but then porn and Clinton came along, and it became more mainstream, to the point where in some kid groups it's not considered "really sex." So what's that if not a variation on contagiousness?
If you're all for sex, you won't see anything wrong with this. If you believe in moral values relative to sex, or if you've seen the horrible effects a lack of sexual morals can have on a marriage or an individual, then you'll be concerned about injecting sexuality into a 2nd grade class.
I don't think it's healthy to pretend that sexual issues don't exist by any means, or to think things will go away if we ignore them. I've seen the damage that does. It's real, and it should be avoided.
But I think that what's happening in this case is entirely inappropriate for a 2nd grade class because we need our kids to process "normality" before we ask them to process exceptions to normality. If you are to suddenly say "normalcy" doesn't exist, then you are denigrating all differences AND all traditions and getting one big mess.
Picasso had to learn art before he could delve into modern art. Children need to learn normal before they learn the exceptions. When are the exceptions good to introduce? I don't know for sure, but I am very sure that it's not as early as second grade.
Instead of attacking me, I'd like you to explain why it wouldn't be better to give this child more years of counseling and his classmates more years of socializing and maturing before dropping this on them.
This isn't about sexuality; this is about authenticity.
Fine for you to say, but the distinction will be lost on a second grader. To them, it will be all about sex.
Laer, 2nd-grader's AREN'T thinking about sex. You are.
Laer;
You really have to share with us where you get all your 'arguments'.
I love your use of the 'opposite for a day' gambit, as part of the 'this is the crest of a slippery slope to ruination' canned rhetoric.
And your use of the 'you're just SELFISH' manoeuver is simply brilliant!
Heard it all before. Where did you get it from?
Tolerance has replaced not 'sanity', however you define that, but cruelty.
That transgender kid would be in for a lot more cruel life growing up, if the things you and others are suggesting were to happen. She may learn to hide her true nature, may learn to 'act' to some degree like a 'normal' boy, may learn to bloody the nose of those bullies who will still be attracted to mess with her anyway because 'he' has something different about 'him'.
The therapy you suggest, to 'lead [her] back into the mainstream of society' ultimately won't work. And either way her life will be difficult. The cure for this is allowing it to occur, not preventing it from happening.
A majority of the classmates will be okay with it, and her presence won't 'turn' them, won't 'recruit' them (another favorite 'argument' I've heard too many times,) won't make the future football captain suddenly want to grow his hair long, wear skirts and paint his nails -- unless he, too, is already transgender. Then it will be just as inevitable that the condition will present itself -- maybe not now. Maybe this person will transition one day. Or maybe this person will commit suicide -- many do, for they can't go on 'led back to the mainstream' (whatever that is,) and have been made too afraid by those who 'know' as you.
Otherwise, 97% of those kids are 'cisgendered', that is, their sense of being boy or girl matches their genetalia. And of the 3% transgendered, it's mild and most who are transgendered can deal with it without transitioning.
Between one in 500 and one in 2000 Americans seek to change their genders. It seems to be a stable number.
There's no epidemic of transness to worry about, just an outbreak of tolerance. And it's about time.
I didn't say "turn"' or "recruit." My arguments have only been sensitive to the needs of the kids in the classroom, and none of you have been able to address my primary question: Why is it so important to do this now? Why not wait a few years so the kid can get some counseling and the classmates can get some maturity? It is not sufficient to say "it won't turn them." I don't want a second grader confused or hurt or introduced too early to sexual issues. And none of you can answer that.
And speaking of proof, why don't' you prove to me your utterly ridiculous 3% transgendered stat, Hazumu? If the entire homosexual population is just 3 to 4% (it is definitely not 10% as the gay researcher who invented that stat has admitted), then there is no way in the world that 3% are transgendered.
Where did I get it from? My life, all I've lived and experienced and read. I'm not some two-dimensional pawn, as you seem to think I am, Hazumu.
i really take offense to the comment, dominant mother/wimpy father. it is quite bs. i am married, transgendered and have two kids, one boy and one girl. it is quite offensive that people call this perversion. i suppose it would be more liberating that a girl would want to be a boy? no one would find that strange because she wants to be masculine. my daughter and son both seem to be masculine and feminine. my daughter rips holes in the knees of her pretty jeans and my son screams at mom putting on makeup. if they grow out of it-fine-if they don't-fine. they are my kids and i will NEVER love them any less if they think their body isn't the one they shouldn't have been born with. in my opinion wimpy fathers are the ones who can't stay around to take care of his children no matter what. if some of these people would read a great number of transwomen have served in the military for thirty years or more so they didn't appear wimpy. yeah that's right, whether anybody likes it or not, there are tons of lesbians, gays, and transgender people serving in the military right now. some consider it the most MANLY thing they can do. do some research before you start going around calling people wimpy.
Mickie, I disagree with your assumption that girl-to-boy is different in any way than boy-to-girl in straight public perception. As a straight guy and a father of daughters I find both equally complex and abnormal.
There is substantial research showing a "strong mom/wimpy father" correlation with male homosexuality, but I don't know that there's a correlation between it and transgender issues. I would assume a likelihood that it's true with boy-to-girl transgender, but since I haven't seen the research, I shouldn't have used it in this context.
Mickie and Nichole -- both of you put your children through psychological hardship so that you could do what you want to do now. This strikes me as narcissistic and selfish. As a Dad, I can't imagine subjecting my children to what you've done, all in the name of my desires. I put my kids' well-being first, and frankly, your behavior angers me because I feel very protective of children.
I don't know how old your children are/were when this happened, but if they are anything other than mature adults, how could you put your desires so far ahead of their well-being?
Okay, Laer, you raise a legitimate question. Why not wait? Well, there is no simple answer. First off, if this child is truly transsexual (although I prefer the more modern term, Harry Benjamin Syndrome), then NO amount of counseling is going to make any difference. There is not a single, verified case of a person who was truly transsexual being cured. On the other hand, it is also possible that the child will simply outgrow it. That does occur in a number of such cases, whether counseling results or not. Now, I would have concerns with how this is handled. If the child is returning to a school she has already attended, and is going to be presented to the class as having "changed," I would have issues with that. That does little to help the child, and it does impose problems on the other children. On the other hand, if this is a situation where the child is coming in from the beginning as just another female student, then I don't see a problem.
Now, as far as the child is concerned, if she is transsexual, then the earlier, the better. This will save her a lot of trauma. If the child is not, then he will grow out of it, and that will have to be dealt with at the appropriate time.
Let's say that you are able to box the child's feelings in. Let's say you can make the child "be" normal through adolescence. Assume for a moment that this "normal" young person gets married and has children. And then let us examine what happens when these internalized feelings can no longer be held at bay. What then?
Would you want your daughter to marry a nice young man who has somehow managed to hide this all his life because that is what his society wants? Would you want your daughter to have to deal with her husband going through a crisis because "he" has always felt that he is a woman? Would you want your grandchildren to suffer because their "daddy" can no longer work or worse yet must leave home because he has been ostracized? Would you want to see your son in law change into a woman before your very eyes?
Wouldn't it be best if this is out in the open from the onset?
Cindi Jones
First all, this child needing to be who she has been core gender wise since birth has little to do with sex. It has to do with correcting, later in life for this child, their genitals to correctly align brain and body. One cannot change their brains as such they must then correct their body.
That's the typical comment we heard in the 70s and 80s when the issue around gay rights began taking hold. So many people, fundies, starting going on about how people that were gay wanted to have sex everywhere and everything in their life focused around sex. This is all because of society was focusing on sex and putting their own thoughts onto people who were gay.
Children, aren't hung up on sex. They have open minds and are much more willing to accept differences in each other then adults. This is mostly because they aren't coming from a place of having been indoctrinated with non educated ideals.
People who are transexual, BTW, have been around for many centuries and in 1952 there was a famous case in the U.S. of an ex G.I.
Fortunately now society is changing and people are not faced with having to live with this medical issue alone, without support as often.
People are even now being able to begin to live as themselves, in the open, much earlier in life.
This child's ability, through the support of her family and school board, to be able to begin now will allow her to avoid many of the mental health issues that older transitioning people have had to face and deal with. It will mean she will be able to have a full history and grow into her body just as any other girl will be able to do, as she enters puberty.
""There is substantial research showing a "strong mom/wimpy father" correlation with male homosexuality, but I don't know that there's a correlation between it and transgender issues. I would assume a likelihood that it's true with boy-to-girl transgender, but since I haven't seen the research, I shouldn't have used it in this context.""
I'd love to read this research, if it's current but I suspect such research is pre 1970 when such thought were considered by those wanting to find a reason for why people were gay, even though studies done in the 1920s by Magnus Hirschfeld proved otherwise.
Back then they tried to tie being gay to the world war and the lack of male parents being at home. Course that never explained people who were bisexual or lesbian.
The same can be said for women with transexual histories.
I guess what people should really be focusing on is how can "we", society, make life better/easier/safer for this child and other children like herself and how "we" can allow all children to form their own ideals without "our" negative comments and influences.
I believe adult society can learn a great deal from the children of the world.
I agree with Laer on this one. Introducing transgendered sexuality in the classroom isn't appropriate.
I ask this question. Where do we draw the line on what sexual inclinations and identifications are ok - and which are simply perverse. Most gays and transgenders say they are born that way. What about child predators who want to have sex with little kids? They have STRONG natural urges too. Should they be able to freely express their feelings like the recent case of Jack Mcclellan?
Think about it. The answers aren't easy to find, but Laer is correct. Moral values are contagious, and we have to draw the line somewhere.
Yep that was the other thing thrown at the gay community in the 70s.
Well if pedophiles are that way because they are born that way....... The old slippery slop idea.
WE hear this in equal marraige debates as well. Well if we let them marry what's to stop a man from marring a child? DUH It's called the law as in illegal.
Pedophilia is illegal, it's against the law for someone over the age of consent to have sex with someone under the age of consent. IT's not illegal for there to be people who are transexual.
As for moral arguments, whose morality are we talking about? Are we talking about the guy who thinks women should stay home and have children, not work?
What about the guy who thinks people should be segregated because of skin colour of culture?
Clearly your morality says being gay, lesbian, bisexual or transexual is preverse, yet mine and so many others say it isn't, including the law.
Why are you right and others wrong?
How about the morality to allow people to be free of discrimination because of who they are, to have the right to an education and to not be treated differently?
How sad are some to attack a child, to belittle them because of who they are, not for what they have done to others. How moral does that make you?
Rosalyn,
I'm not saying what's moral and what isn't. I'm just asking where we draw the line if all of these "feelings" are inate.
Do we just rely on the law to draw the line? If so, how do we determine what laws are right and justified if they aren't based on someone's moral framework?
People who think that transexuality is all about sex are wrong. It has nothing to do with sex nor does it have anything to do with sexual orientation. It has to do with how you feel and how you think about yourself, which is something that you are born with.
How would you feel if that child would have a problem later in life cause of all the bullies that pick on her. I just doesn't make sense to let even one child go just because, just maybe the other kids would have to suffer. Children can adjust to situations that are presented in a positive way. When there are adults around that will condemn others because they are not like themselves then the kids of those adults grow up and become the bullies all over again. People who are not open to situations that have been going on since the beginning of time will have a problem.
I have a grandson who asked me, when he was is kindergarten, he said Grandpa, why do you want to be a girl? The answer was so simple that I didn't have to go into sex 101 to describe my situation, all I said was because I am a girl. He said oh OK. I took him to school all through kindergarten and I made some friends and I stayed out there with the teachers during recess and no one ever had a problem. Oh and by the way, I drive a school bus with a lot of kids of different ages and I have been asked on several occasions and a simple answer is all they want. They understand more than adults until the adults put their bigotry ideas into their heads. I knew that I was a girl since I was about 4 or 5 and that was in the 50's. I lived in fear cause I had relatives who were bigots. They called me a sissy all the time. If I would have had the knowledge and support back then, well who knows. It didn't happen. I still have an inferiority complex from all those years.
Sheila
Look, I understand that transexuality has to do with gender, not sex. But it is also a mischaracterization to say it has "nothing to do with sex" -- unless you changed your sex without the act of sex being a part of it. Be honest.
I do get the difference between gender and sex. But you are not thinking rationally if you think a second grader will get the difference.
I'm sure Sheila's story is very typical. I just wonder how you folks think the boys and girls who will be in this child's classroom are going to treat her respectably. Why do you think they'll treat "transgender" better than "sissy?"
Do you really think an 8 year-old will be able to deal with this maturely? A junior high student? I'm sorry your lives were hard, but I think you're way off base thinking it would have been easier to change at 8. And I still think you have no right to impose this level of complexity (and weirdness from an uninitiated straight perspective) on a second grade class. The majority's rights and feelings also count. That doesn't mean they have a right to hatred and bigotry, but they do have a right to be left normal for just a while longer, absolutely.
Well, as I said, it depends on how this is going to be handled. If this is going to be a "public" transition, then yes, I have some serious issues with that.
The ONLY way this can be properly handled, would be to move the child to a school where she is not known, and to introduce her as a female student. Otherwise, it will accomplish little. Unfortunately, I am not sure that is the case here. In fact, I kind of doubt it.
My organization works with children, youth and their families like the one's in Colorado. This is not unique and we have a great deal of information we can share re: the specifics of why it's better to deal with this sooner rather than later, why it's about "who someone is" rather than "sex" in the sense that word is being thrown around here.
Please contact us with specific questions, and we'll be happy to answer ASAP.
Jenn Burleton
Executive Director
TransActive Education & Advocacy
transeducate@comcast.net
Jennifer, unfortunately that's not the case in this situation. The boy left the school as a boy, went somewhere else for a period of time, and now is coming back as a girl. I think it is going to be very painful and difficult for all involved.
I'm very sure that the children will handle the change better than the adults you hang around with. I have not had any problems with children. I know of other transexuals who work with children and have no problems with them. I know of children in the middle of transitioning and have no problems. The only problems some have is with people who want to make it a problem. If you leave the kids alone they will make up their own minds and yes some will try to cause problems and guess what families they come from. It has to do with families who can educate their children properly and not just the basics of math, language and history, but of social matters of our society. Try learning to open your mind to different cultures in your community. You might be surprised at what you find. There is a huge world out there that people live in and some are afraid to come out because of people who want to cause problems. I'm positive that some of the minorities out there don't want any attention only to be left alone and live their life in peace and harmony and to have fun at liveing, instead of fear.
Sheila
I'll ignore the crap about "the friends I hang around with" and won't say anything disparaging about the friends you hang out with. You don't know me; I don't know you.
Here it is: As a parent, I have problems with you or a school district forcing a topic like transgenderism on my children. You need to deal with that because you're wanting, for reasons both good and bad, to be in the center of society. Most of society, for reasons good and bad, doesn't want you in the center of our society, like a second grade classroom.
This isn't an easy topic and all my commenters, while mostly polite, want to make it easier than it is. You have all (or mostly) come here from a site that supports you and surrounds you with others like you going through what you're going through. That's nice for you, it makes you feel normal; but for you to be normal, we have to re-define normalcy. And society generally doesn't like redefining what it has long determined to be normal.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/
...nssexualism.pdf
"Recalling Eqn. 9: P(TS) > P(SH) > P(HT) > P(ST) > P(SRS), we know that the inherent
prevalence of transsexualism must be a moderate multiple of the inherent prevalence of SRS,
because only a fraction of transsexual people come out to themselves and others, seek treatments
to resolve their conditions, and migrate fully from the inherent TS condition to undergoing SRS.
Therefore, even when using data from early reports, these factors already suggest a lower bound
on the prevalence of inherent mf transsexualism on the order of 1:1,000 to 1:2,000.
Furthermore, more recent reports from Thailand, the UK, and the U.S. suggest an even higher
lower bound on the prevalence of mf transsexualism, on the order of 1:500 (i.e., 0.2%) or more
[Conway01], [Kelly01], [Winter02], [Winter06], [Conway07].
The number of people falling under the larger transgender umbrella is by most accounts and
definitions at least an order of magnitude greater than the prevalence of mf transsexualism. Thus
the prevalence of mf transgenderism appears likely to be on the order of at least 1:100 (i.e., 1%)
or more and we see TG prevalence becoming an important topic for future studies.
The bottom line: The inherent prevalence of the transsexual condition, both P(TSImf) and
P(TSIfm), now appears to be nearly two orders of magnitude greater than the old figures of
1:30,000 and 1:100,000 so widely cited in the media. It is also appears to be more than one order
of magnitude greater than the 1:11,900 and 1:30,400 figures currently cited by WPATH."
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/
...prevalence.html
TABLE 2: Coordinated rough projections of prevalence of CD/TG/TS conditions in the U.S.:
Observed situations:
Likely lower bounds on | Conservative lower bounds on
"intrinsic" prevalence | current prevalence
P/T intense CD'ers: 1:20 | 1:50
Those with strong TG feelings:
1:50 | 1:200
Those with intense TS feelings:
1:150 | 1:500
TG transitioners (w/o SRS):
1:200 | 1:1000
TS transitioners (w SRS):
1:500 | 1:2500
"Transgender" includes crossdressers, thus the 3% figure I mentioned is supported - in fact exceeded by 2 percentage points as a reasonable upper boundary.
My google search term was 'transgender prevalence'
You said, "Where did I get [my belief that my knowledge (and not yours) is correct] from? My life, all I've lived and experienced and read. I'm not some two-dimensional pawn," Then, how did you miss the above websites with their referenced information? They were the top, most relevant returns.
Also, your statement, "If the entire homosexual population is just 3 to 4%...then there is no way in the world that 3% are transgendered."is a real nice rhetorical trick, implying that transgender is ONLY a subset of
(Part 2)
Also, your statement, "If the entire homosexual population is just 3 to 4%...then there is no way in the world that 3% are transgendered."is a real nice rhetorical trick, implying that transgender is ONLY a subset of gay/lesbian.
Transgender is different from gay/lesbian -- we transgenders are almost as ostracised by the gay/lesbian community as by the straight community. There I was, minding my own business, when a gay man paid me a very suggestive and unwelcome 'compliment'. I think he thought I was a drag queen (which I find insulting.) I ended his advances quickly by telling him I was post-op. Once he knew I no longer had a penis, he lost all purient interest in me. Since so many like you, laer, fixate on the sex (not gender) aspects, I hope that you can learn something from the above parable.
Hazumu Usaragi
So if I understand this, Hazumu, you're saying transgenders are 3% of the population, and you source it to a document that says:
"From this reanalysis of those early reports, we determine lower-bounds on the prevalence of the underlying condition of transsexualism to be between 1:1000 and 1:2000, using those reports own data. We then present more recent incidence data and alternative methods for estimating the prevalence of transsexualism, all of which
indicate that the lower bound on the prevalence of transsexualism is at least 1:500, and possibly higher."
1:1000 is one tenth of one percent; 1:2000 is one-twentieth of one percent; 1:500, which they're reaching for, is one-fifth of one-percent.
Hey, evvabuddy, Let's play 'Semantics' with our host, laer!
'Transgender' - umbrella term which includes everything from mild gender dysphoria expressed as weekend or closet crossdressing by otherwise 'normal' heterosexuals, to full-on transsexualism where the person undergoes multiple operations to deal with their disphoria.
The incidence of all forms of transgenderism could be as much as 1:20 -- 5% I'll go with 3% as more supportable.
'Transsexual' - the subset of transgender who wish to transition to another gender and are taking significant actions to do so.
The incidence of those who have taken the irreversible step of Gender Reassignment surgery is likely 1: 2500 -- .04% It is possible it could be higher, as these things are notoriously undercounted (especially given the majority of post-op transsexuals live in 'deep stealth', not wishing to be identified as transsexual,) so the incidence could be as high as 1:1000 - .1%
For every transsexual who has crossed the threshold of irreversible gender reassignment surgery, there are at least two -- if not 5 to 10 -- who are on hormones, have changed their legal names to a gender-appropriate name, and are living their lives 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for at least the year-long Real Life Experience, if not for longer.
These 'pre-ops', who are awaiting their certification, or funds for the operation (and some 'non-ops', who can't undergo the surgery for medical reasons or have chosen not to,) could possibly be as high as 1:200, with a more conservative number 1:1000.
One thing this does imply is that, although the above will still not change your mind 'one iota', you have to worry that there are at least 3% of the population who, because they have at least passed the threshold of transgenderism, are very understanding of what that transgender schoolgirl is going to go through.
And although I haven't changed YOUR mind, and experience tells me I have no hope of doing so, there are a percentage of the readers of this comments section who will ultimately be persuaded in favor of supporting that and other transgender children, and that the 'mainstreaming' them, rather than hiding them away, will ultimately be a good thing overall.
Thank you for providing a forum where I can attempt the necessary education.
Hazumu Usaragi
You're welcome, Hazumu. I enjoy being exposed to new information, as do the curious readers of C-SM. You haven't changed my mind regarding this specific case regarding a second grade classroom, and I haven't changed yours.
I'm glad I was not accused of hate (much) in this conversation, because it's not true. We can come from very different places, have very different experiences and hold to very different beliefs and still not hate.
All this is pap, anyway, in the eternal view of things. Whatever all my recent visitors think or do, please know that you have a Savior who will embrace you if you accept Him. Don't think because of any prejudiced views of Christians you may hold (some of them probably earned because of personal bad experiences) that He doesn't have a place in his heart for you. He loves the hurt and the wounded, and He gives them strength.
I should know.
I guess, as a parent of two kids myself and as someone who has worked for a number of years which children both in and out of school settings, I have seen the anguish of how issues can harm their chances to succeed.
Be it that child from a divorced home, a child with learning disabilities, children with autism, children from different cultures, the best way we handle this is to educate those around the child to help create a better learning environment.
Parents tend to look at things in an catastrophic way, that is they take their worst fears, and place them as if they are fact.
Once upon a time the above mentioned groups of children would have been singled out for exclusion from the so called "normal" children.
I do agree with one comment, I believe from Jennifer, that the best way for success would have been for this child to have gone to a new school without people knowing. I understand this child was home schooled for two years so I suspect the parents looked at this as basically being the same thing since she would not have attended classes with her upcoming classmates.
A mistake made by the school board was to allow this to become a public affair.
This should have been handled completely in house, in fact there should be basic policy, understanding and education within the boards for any child who it may be learned is transexed.
That policy should be a public document stating clearly how they might deal with a child who is transexual or even a child who is transgender should one ever become a part of their school district, without suggestion that there is such a child at that time.
Principals and school youth workers should be trained also on how to deal with possible outings or questions should they happen in the future.
A comment on parents that transition was made suggesting that they are somehow negatively affecting their children. I disagree there is no evidance the courts can find to back this statement up, in fact the contrary has been found argued by expert witnesses in the field of psychology.
My belief is if a parent isn't self loathing, hating and feeling angry, they can better parent a child showing them love and understanding.
Depending on the age of the child, when a parent transitions, will gage what issues may be delt with. he older, adul children, tend to have a harder time then children under the age of ten, of their parents transition.
Unlike some, I'm uncomfortable with the term transgender since it refers to just about anyone in the greater society who in some way non conforms to expected rules set out by others. The term itself no way speaks to a specific issue but rather over loads the readers mind with more confusing images and to what is meant. For me when I hear that term I'm not sre if we are talking about a person who is gay, a person who cross dresses, a woman who is more mascline or a person who is transexual, let alone the many others communities that fit under that umbrella t
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, didn't mean to do that. I was not trying to put you on the spot as to other people who do guide their children into bigotry. What is 'normal'? I don't know, maybe average type person in our society. I guess that would have to mean where you live and where you work and so on and so forth.
I think that there has been a lot said, by people who know a lot more than I on the subject, but I have lived through it so it makes me somewhat knowledgeable on the subject. As you said yourself, you don't like it and want nothing to do with it. Well, then why did you write about trangenderism if you don't want anything to do with it. If you want to write about something, then go learn about it first then write about it. Don't go and find out information at say your local pub, not saying you go there using it as an example cause I have no idea where you frequent and don't really care. I understand that you don't want us to be the center of attention, well, neither do we. People want to put us there to try and shame us so we will go away. We are not going anywhere. I want children to be safe, all children. I want the bullies to stop, no matter what their issues are. I'm tired of kids going home after being punished verbally or physically by some kids in school and then coming back with a gun or maybe they go home and just end it there and now. This doesn't have to do with transgenderism but it is part. Bullies tend to be like chickens, they see a spot on one chicken and all of them seem to peck that chicken on that spot until that chicken dies. Like someone has said before, that child should not have been put into the public eye. It should have been handled within the school. No, I don't know you and you don't know me. You have no idea what my life has been.
Sheila
I remember these very same arguments forced integration of whites and blacks into the public schools many years ago.
It was not "normal". It was "morally wrong".
Did it work? Did it hurt the other children?
Cindi
Laer, there are many transgender people who are Christian.
Religious prefference is not dependant upon this.
I'm not sure what you are afraid of.
I mean what do you think would happen as a "worst case" scenario out of this?
I would be particularly interested to know.
I realy don't think the actual risk is what you think it could be. I don't see perverts running in the streets because of this. I see it more likely that they will not and that people will be more respectful of each other in general.
I'm nor realy sure what you are afraid of.
The bible as far as I know doesn't say anything about transgender people specifically, it does however mention that when Jesus saw the Pharisis wanting to stone a prostitute he said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"
He also cautioned people when being judgemental of others that they should remove the thorn from thier own eye rather try to pluck it from others.
Jesus hung out with prostitutes, homeless people, beggars criminals, the vagrants and rejects of society. He was the first to accept them for their differences, and he did not judge them. He encouraged others to follow his example and to look at themselves when they feel the need to judge others for being different.
This was the message he tought. He said it on the Sermon on the Mount.
If you say you are Christian, you might want to re-read that section. He is pretty clear.
"Judge not, lest ye be Judged" for by that judging shall ye yourself be judged.
This is the way for us to live with one another.
Do you agree? Or are you going to argue with the words of the founder of your religion?
Peace be with you friend,
Those are his words too.
Sara
Sara, your points on Christianity are exactly why I encouraged my new readers to open their hearts to Jesus; I can't complain with a single one. We are all sinners and have fallen short of the Glory of God, and the only way back to the Father is through His son, who spent his ministry here with the sick, the infirm, the unwanted, and the reviled.
I have many Christian friends who are gay, alcoholics, hooked on prostitutes, angry at their fathers ... whatever ... and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if I've met transgendered people in church and not known it; it makes no difference to me anyway, other than to be glad they're there.
But before this goes all Kumbaya, Sara, remember that the Bible says all you said, for sure, but also that in order to receive Jesus, you must recognize your sins and ask forgiveness for them. I get the sense this would be a sticking point for some of the folks commenting here because they wouldn't want to characterize what they've done as sin. That's an unfortunate hang-up because we all sin; none of us is really any better in God's eyes. Feeling like a woman in a man's body is not a sin, but acting sinfully because of those feeling is; that's all.
What am I afraid of? Most of all that people will not be saved. More specifically to this case, that a school district is ham-handedly imposing a very controversial action on an entire school without any dialog, or enough thought about the possible impacts of their actions on the child in question, other children in the class, and other parents. I thought that's been clear throughout all my comments.
Why am I afraid of that? Because children in the class who should have the blessing of several more years before having to deal with complex sexual/psychological issues will instead have this very confusing and sexually charged thing shoved in front of their immature minds. I never said anything about rape or pedophilia or anything sensational like that; I'm not an idiot. I just believe that God timed the blossoming of sexuality in a wise manner, allowing us to mature to a certain point before that event and all that follows. The child's parents and the school district are forcing the timeline forward, with concern only for the transgender child and not enough consideration given to everyone else.
I think you misunderstand,
Gender,
and
Sexual maturity are not the same thing.
One occurs durring puberty,
the other a person becomes aware of arround the ages of 2-4.
What we are talking about is the latter.
This has nothing to do with ones sexual oreintation or whether or not one will become sexualy active or not.
A transgender kid will not become any more sexually active than any other kid that age.
They will go through puberty later on like everyone else.
I think what you are worried about is how the parrents are going to explain this to their kids -the ones other than this child.
The problem is; this exists.
We can't avoid it.
And we can't make it un-exist.
It is inconvienient.
I will agree with that.
But we have no choice.
I did not get a choice either.
I realize it's hard for some of these parrents to explain this, as they were unprepared for this and having to deal with it so soon. Many probably never expected the subject of gender or sexuality to come up at all until puberty.
But this exists, and we can't ignore it.
The experts have said; this is the best course of action. The parrents agree, and they have the right to support their kid in any way they like.
I'm afraid that anyone who is uncomfortable about this is just going to have to deal with it.
We don't have the right not to be uncomfortable; if we did, it would apply to everyone and none of us would be allowed to do anything as we all make some people uncomfortable from time to time in some way.
We just have to deal with it.
Sorry friend.
I know it sucks.
You have my condolances.
Sara
Laer,
This is where you have got it all wrong and keep getting it wrong. It doesn't have anything to do with sexuality. Nothing to do with sexuality. It has to do with who you are. When you were growing up say around 4 years of age, did you know anything about sexuality, I would gues you didn't. Now, did you know that you were a boy, I'm assuming your male. I think you did. Now, for us who are transexuals, we know that we are not who they say we are. If we had the body of a boy, we just knew in our hearts and soul that we were girls but hey we don't look like girls what happened? We just know it, I can't explain it but I just knew I was a female. You don't out grow these thoughts. It is hard for anyone to explain it to a person who has not gone through it. It was hard for most of us who are older. We all tried to be what they wanted us to be but we just couldn't. I just don't know how to explain it to you and maybe I'm wasting my time and you with me.
Sheila
Well, there may be a difference between gender and sexuality, but gender and sex...hardly. That is the line the transgender creeps try to sell.
Laer...if someone asked you what sex you were, and someone else asked you what gender you were, would you answer differently? I doubt it.
The "sex is not the same as gender" argument is just more of the transgender idiots doing their best to deconstruct gender completely. These nuts are NOT transsexual, have no desire for sexual reassignment, instead many call themselves non-ops. They say they don't need surgery to be "who they are". They want special rights and legislation to protect themselves while having no problem at all infringing on yours. Actually, they are just gay men and women who like to crossdress and go around calling themselves by female (or male)pronouns.
Laer...if you learn only one thing it should be...transgender is NOT transsexual.
Sheila, you're not wasting your time. I still remember vividly how, in nursery school, I became aware that I was a very much a boy and very much interested in girls -- curious about how their bodies were different from mine and wanting to see/know more.
It wasn't sex, it was awareness of a difference.
The second grader we've been talking about will enter into a classroom full of kids who pretty much all have gone through similar awareness, and based on the stats Hazumo gave us, none of the other kids in that class is likely to be transexual. How will all this affect the kids?
I have no idea and neither do any of you. Is it fair that one group of kids, without having any say, get to be the guinea pigs? Absolutely not, no matter what you think about transexuality.
Guinea pigs?
Laer you make it sound as though they were going to do experimental drug testing on these kids.
Kids go through a lot as kids.
They get beat up, picked on, all kinds of things.
Suffering is not avoidable.
Neither is discomfort.
Honestly, kids are way more accepting than adults usually with the exception of high school kids.
These kids aren't being tested on. They are having to deal with a classmate who is different.
They will get over it.
The same thing happens with the retarded kids.
Is it "fair" to experiment on the kids in a class by introducing them to the concept that one of thier classmates is retarded?
It's a matter of explaination to the kids and they get it.
That's it.
What are you afraid that's going to happen?
I mean, have you been traumatized by the fact that you are typing with a Transexual or two?
OMG you've got cooties now. :D
You are not going to die.
And neither are these kids.
What are you so afraid of?
What do you think might happen?
Sara
Oh noes! Teh Cooties!
The notion that being "exposed" to transsexuality will cause transsexuality in others is patently ludicrous.
This is a very high-profile case. Most aren't. The only way to avoid being "exposed" to transsexuality is to move to a desert island.
You are attributing things to me I've never said -- "catching it," "cooties." I've explained my position all that I'm going to explain it. Here it is again, from a couple comments up:
"Why am I afraid of that? Because children in the class who should have the blessing of several more years before having to deal with complex sexual/psychological issues will instead have this very confusing and sexually charged thing shoved in front of their immature minds. I never said anything about rape or pedophilia or anything sensational like that; I'm not an idiot. I just believe that God timed the blossoming of sexuality in a wise manner, allowing us to mature to a certain point before that event and all that follows. The child's parents and the school district are forcing the timeline forward, with concern only for the transgender child and not enough consideration given to everyone else."
If you don't understand that and can't grant that it's legitimate, then you are more close-minded than you accuse me of being.
Actually Laer, I agree with you. While I think it would be wonderful if this child could be helped early on, I do not agree with the idea of having the kid suddenly transition in place. That is extremely hard when an adult does it. But for a child, it would accomplish nothing, and possibly make things worse.
And let me correct one bit of terminology. Everyone keeps using "transgender" when the correct term would be "transsexual." Transsexual refers to someone, like this child, who is born with a brain that is wired at odds with their body, though again, I prefer the newer term "Harry Benjamin Syndrome." "Transgender" is a vague, meaningless term that some wish to apply to anyone who has some issue with gender. They are not synonymous. A lot of people who wish to pretend to be transsexual like to confuse the two, but that is not accurate.
No, again, the correct approach, if ANY is taken at this time, would be to move the child to a new school, with no mention of her being transsexual made, except perhaps to the child's teachers, and with the understanding that it will not be made an issue at all.
From what I understand, she is starting fresh at a school she once attended. She was homeschooled for a while and her parents were going to enroll her back into school as a female. I don't think that any of the children, unless they live around the child and know her will even give her a second look as long as the adults help out. It wouldn't matter what school she attended, if some adults decide to out her and let their children know, then she will be outed and possibly confronted by the bullies. You are right, after a year no one would even care. The children will accept and they probably won't even know. I know I didn't show anything off in grade school and I don't think the times have changed that much. Laer, you are reading way too much into this. The children are very simple and they ask very simple questions and require very simple answers. I'm sure as time goes on the question will be more complex, but they will deal with it. We all have. I have been living full time as a female for almost 10 years and I had my surgery 4 years ago. I have had no problems with anyone and very few ask me any questions. Like I said, I drive a school bus with children from pre-school to High School. I have had only about 5 comments made by some elementary children and I answered in a very simple way. They told their parents and nothing more was said. I have never had a complaint in all my years of driving, least of all from the parents. I get Christmas cards from most, every year, those that know my birthday give me birthday cards and I always get too much candy at Valentines day. I'm out in the community, been in the paper and on TV. Have been an advocate for Gender Identity. We live in a small town here. I don't hide and yet I go everywhere and people say hi to me. No problems. This will happen with the little girl also. As soon as the media steps out and people quit having a witch hunt.
Sheila
As a straight person who is very skeptical of all studies and research done on behalf of special interest groups (from either the Right or Left,) I have a couple of thoughts and questions.
For starters, all of you folks from your forum seem to accept without any question what-so-ever, that this little boy has these trans-something-or-other wirings. How do we know that’s the case?
I’m certain that several of you will point to studies “proving” that I’m wrong, but I suspect that at age seven or eight, his home environment has a significant influence on his “feelings”, and how he wants to dress.
Does the kid come from a normal family with a womanly mother and a manly father, or are his “parents” more “progressive” than that? Does anyone know? (Does anyone but me think that it might matter?)
Does he have “normal” brothers and sisters? Has his daddy ever taken him fishing? Wrestled with him? Played ball? Let him help change the sparkplugs in the car? Popped open a cold beer? (OK, forget that last one until he’s twelve or so.) Well, you get the idea.
Since it would have been relatively simple to enroll him in a new school, but they have taken this route, why do I get the impression that the parents are more concerned with making a point than with their own son?
I’m anxious to here your thoughts here.
Jim
Just to answer some of your questions Jim. It is difficult for someone who has never given their gender a second thought to understand there are people who don't go a day without thinking about it. According to the article, the family is involved with the Trans-Youth Family Advocates. They most definately would have had the parents and child see a Psychologist. Also the TYFA does not promote transitioning except when needed. They do not push the idea.
You cannot force a transsexual female to be boy by making him do boy things. I did exactly that for many years, martial arts, cars, motorbikes, infantry, weightlifting, all it did was make me hit a bigger brick wall till I cracked.
Our entire lives we are influenced by how we were raised, but there is also parts of us that were forged in our brains before we were born. For some people, yes it could be true that their home life at an early age influenced their gender identity (nature and nurture). According to the American Pediatrician Association, children understand their gender and their physical sex do not match at a very early age (2-6 yrs). Also having a parent or parents who treat a male child girly does not mean he will end up girly. Certainly not every boy has turned out to be like their father.
My question is why should the child give up her classmates, maybe even have to move?
Sorry just to clarify:
"For some people, yes it could be true that their home life at an early age influenced their gender identity (nature and nurture). "
This however is very rare as most kids and people do not take their influence so far as to insist and convince their parents as to a differing gender identity. And being that TYFA is involved, it is safe to say this is not the case with this child. Psychiatrists and Psychologists can determine that.
Hellooo Jim!
My grandfather gave me my first gun at 5 years old. I was taught how to use weapons earlier than that. I helped kill chicken, by cutting off their head around that time too. I hunted and I fished. I killed my first deer at ten with my own gun. By the time I was a teen I had 3 shot guns, 270, 30.06, 30.30, 22 single shot (1st), and a 22 pistol (revolver.) Not to mention all the bb guns I had. I helped with the butchering of all the animals. Never guess what I became, a meatcutter and did my own meat. I raised cattle, sheep and goats, not to mention all the poultry and pigs. In between I would crossdress, I kept it hidden. I couldn't take it anymore, this fooling everyone and myself. I couldn't take it any more. I took my 357 up into the hills around where I live and was going to end it all. I liked liveing and so I didn't do it. I told myself that this is not right. I'm going to do what I felt was right. I saw a therapist mainly for the suicide then it grew to my gender identity. I spent 4 years in therapy and came out very happy and contented. I don't have a chip on my shoulder anymore and I like me now. The first time. When surgery was over, I felt whole and very much alive. Yes the men folk in my family called me a sissy for the way I acted at times. I did everything they told me to do. Did it work, did it turn me into man. I drank with the best of them, Did that turn me into a man. No it didn't.
This child does need to see therapist to make sure of her feelings and there is a protocal that needs to be met before anything really can happen. It sounds like they are doing it the right way.
So, why don't you take a couple of cases of beer and get into your ford 4x4 and go up and blast the hell out anything you can see. Cause that makes men what they are.
Sheila
Now, this is what happens when the bullies want to get rid of people who they don't like.
GSA Network, Transgender Law Center, and EQCA Saddened Over Shooting of Gay Jr. High Student in Oxnard
Advocates urge stronger bullying prevention efforts to prevent escalation of violence
SAN FRANCISCO – Gay-Straight Alliance Network (GSA Network), the Transgender Law Center (TLC), and Equality California (EQCA) are deeply saddened by the shooting of Lawrence King, a gay junior high school student in Oxnard, CA. The 15-year-old victim was shot at E.O. Green Junior High School on Tuesday morning and pronounced brain dead yesterday around 2 pm.
According to reports from friends of Lawrence King speaking to the Los Angeles Times, the victim self-identified as gay, sometimes wore make-up and feminine jewelry, and was the target of ridicule by some of his classmates. Authorities are investigating the shooting as a possible hate crime, but have not confirmed if King was targeted by the shooter because of his sexual orientation or gender expression.
The shooting has been characterized as a “personal” attack and “bad blood” between two students, but advocates caution the violence at the Oxnard junior high is more aptly characterized as a tragic example of widespread homophobia in our schools. Every day young people are subject to bullying or harassment based on sexual orientation or gender identity and expression.
While there were reports of the victim receiving support at school due to the bullying he endured, no other bullying prevention efforts have been reported. This terrible event sheds light on the need to provide better education for all students about respect for diversity and differences.
“With young people coming out at younger ages, our schools – especially our junior highs and middle schools – need to be proactive about teaching respect for diversity based on sexual orientation and gender identity,” said Carolyn Laub, executive director of Gay-Straight Alliance Network. “The tragic death of Lawrence King is a wake-up call for our schools to better protect students from harassment at school. As a society, we can prevent this kind of violence from happening.”
“We are deeply saddened by this tragedy, which is a grim reminder of the need for all of us to re-double our efforts to protect LGBT youth,” said EQCA Executive Director Geoff Kors.
California has laws protecting students from harassment and discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity and expression in schools. The California Student Safety and Violence Prevention Act was enacted in 2000, and further strengthened through the passage of AB 394 (The Safe Place to Learn Act) and SB 777 (The CA Student Civil Rights Act), which went into effect on January 1, 2008.
“We are proud to live in a state with laws aimed at preventing harassment and violence in schools,” said Masen Davis, executive directo
I have a question for Laer:
You said "Why am I afraid of that? Because children in the class who should have the blessing of several more years before having to deal with complex sexual/psychological issues will instead have this very confusing and sexually charged thing shoved in front of their immature minds."
I think kids are a lot more durable than you give them credit for.
"I just believe that God timed the blossoming of sexuality in a wise manner, allowing us to mature to a certain point before that event and all that follows."
He did time it in a wise manner: when we are about 3-6 years old gender identity takes hold.
This is what is happening with this kid. If you are Christian then you have to admit that God planned this too. And did this on purpose.
There is a reason for it.
"The child's parents and the school district are forcing the timeline forward, with concern only for the transgender child and not enough consideration given to everyone else."
See above: This child is a child of God too. Who are you to judge His work?
Sara
I'm no one to judge God's work, Sara, nor are you when you say "God planned this too. And did this on purpose. There is a reason for it." What reason? We don't know, and it's not good for us to guess.
There's an answer of sorts in the article Sheila clipped above. If indeed this young man was killed because he was gay, that is a terrible thing. No one should have to die because of this. If this was a case of gay-hatred, we have to ask if it's wise for the GSA, TLC and you folks to push for coming out at younger and younger ages. A youth takes risks in coming out, especially as young as junior high, as in this case. You are expecting a level of decency from those around you, but as this story shows, that decency unfortunately won't always be extended.
If this were the old days when there wasn't pressure to come out so young, this boy would still be alive. He might be struggling and needing counseling and friends, but he'd still be alive.
Don't say I'm blaming the activists with his death; they didn't pull the trigger. But they do need to think of ALL the consequences of pushing for coming out at younger years. Kids should understand all the alternatives and understand them well before making a decision ... and our little second grader clearly cannot be expected to understand this.
Oh my goodness,
Laer!
I have friends who were gay in the "old days"
People were killed MORE then!
They were jumped on a regular basis, people were attacked..You think it was better back then??
Society progresses Laer. What they are pushing is acceptance at an early age. That is a good thing.
To learn to accept others early and not later makes it easier. It's much harder for an older person to understand somthing new than a kid.
When you are a kid, everything is new.
It sets up good habits for acceptance of others at an early age. You see, you have these hypothesis' about what you think will happen if such and such are done, but when actual people who have gone through that say otherwise, you are not convinced.
You have no idea the misery of being in the closet.
You can't.
You do have to take our word for it that it is more painful (yes MORE) than being ostracised by others. We wouldn't do it otherwise.
You seem to think that this kid will just be 'OK' if they don't come out.
They will be misreble.
The discomfort that other arround this child feel will fade quickly.
A childs misery at not being accepted will not fade until they are allowed to express themself.
Think about your priorities here:
The soldiers in Iraq are uncomfortable.
They need out of there.
That's a priority.
Antartica (the ice shelves) is falling into the ocean.
That's a priority.
We are 3 trillion dollars in debt(with a 'T'). That's a priority.
Like a 'right now!' kinda priority.
Above, you were basically blaming that kids death on the fact that they were out.
Saying that "if they had not come out" then they wouldn't have been killed. I'm sorry, that's pretty perverted.
People have a right to be themselves.
They don't have the right to kill each other because they are uncomfortable.
They don't even have the right to be comfortable.
Comfort is a luxury, not a right.
And as I said: there are more important priorites than that.
Where is your compassion for the kids in Iraq? or the parrents there?
Don't you think that's a lot worse than dealing with a classmate who is Trans?
Like: "we don't have classmates because the teacher was shot, and the school was hit by mortat fire and our parrents only risk passing through a checkpoint when we run out of food"
That's a bit more important than this Laer.
You are treating this issue of some minor discomfort on the part of some parrents(and it IS the parrents) as though it is a legitamate priority.
It's not.
Sara
Laer,
In the good old days? Hmmm, that means that if I didn't like you all I have to do is beat you up or just shoot you? If I didn't like the color of your hair or how it was parted, I hope you would be faster at the draw than I. I guess that is the answer. That boy should not have come out ever. That is why we have psychiatrists. I really feel sorry for you and your family. It's your way or the high way.
Sheila
Sheila, read my comment again. Carefully. You are way, way off base in how you criticized it and me.
Lawrence King, the Oxnard 8th grader, is brain-dead right now due to two things: (1) another eighth grader who couldn't deal with the fact that Lawrence wore high heels and makeup, and (2) Because he wore high heels and make-up.
Your grand ideals about how good society should be are fine, but they are not saving Lawrence King. He believed he would be better off coming out because of what pro-gay, pro-trans people were saying, but he is paying the price with his life.
I'm pretty much done with this dialog. If you all don't get the fact that none of us are in control of society, that there are consequences to our actions, and that second grade is crazy-young to have to deal with this, then there's really not much more we can say.
I have enjoyed our dialog and wish you all the best. You are, as a whole, a thoughtful and respectful bunch and it's been interesting having this chat.
It makes me want to vomit when a group can't talk about transsexuality without dragging the friggin homosexals into it.
It certainly proves AGP is alive and well.
"Friggin'?" Where's your tolerance and what in the world is "AGP?"
Laer,
I agree with you on this one. Who or what is AGP? "Friiggin" anyone is very inappropriate. We are of one in this world, why can't we just get along?
Sheila
I suspect it is a reference to autogynephilia, which is where a person seeks SRS because of a fetish. It exists, but is not nearly as common as Ray Blanchard (who created the term) and Michael Bailey (who has promoted the concept) claims.
Here is the story of this particular family:
http://www.highlandsranchherald....id=559878&
rfi=8
Here is a story explaining some basics of transgenderism:
http://www.highlandsranchherald....id=560243&
rfi=6
Commenting by HaloScan
