Lenin’s Tomb
Sky news said it was closer to 20,000 but the police put the maximum figure on it so as not be accused of playing it down. (They measure these things through their CCTV cameras, I believe.) In any event, given how long this one was in the planning, and the fact that a general election is almost here, it wasn't really all that, was it. But I can perfectly see how these things must be exciting when you're in the thick of it; it must a fun day out...etc.
The reality is, of course, is that even if it was 500,000 it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to anything. These things always get a little bit of coverage the next day, and then are totally forgotten by Monday. This was even the case after the 800,000 march before the war. By the time the war broke out it already seemed like a decade ago.
Luke above.
Right, Luke, where to begin?
I suppose the most obvious thing to note about your post is that you are so determined to piss on the demo that you are prepared to resort to non-sequitur. The fact that we are approaching a General Election says nothing. It isn't relevant. This demo wasn't any longer in planning than others.
Second, Sky News nothing like you claim it does. In all likelihood, you are citing some hostile commentator or fabricating. At any rate, the Murdoch news channel is hardly a bastion of unbiased journalism.
Actually, even if you accept the demonstrators' claim of 100,000 (and I think we should all be skeptical about BOTH the police numbers and the numbers cited by the protestors, for hopefully obvious reasons), I think that's a pretyy piss-poor showing. How many people live in London? Jesus, 100,000 is hardly a blip on the radar screen - I've seen demonstrations in Philadelphia with almost 75,000 people over trivial issues. If this is the best the anti-war movement can do in England, then you've certainly got your work cut out for you.
Now those Lebanese, they know how to protest, both pro- and anti-Syrian.
The Sky news article you produce I think comes from an agency. It's been on several news outlets today.
The 20,000 figure came from a Sky news reporter on the scene - an asian chap, not that that has any relevance - who said his police sources reported that it could be as low as 20,000 but the police were keen not be attacked for playing down the numbers, as the antiwar brigade always do after these things. I'm just repeating what I saw. I do think that given there's election fever in the air, even on the 45,000 figure it was still a poor showing. The message seemed very incoherent as well.
Hayward, a 100,000 demo is quite large for Britain.
At any rate, the best the antiwar movement can do is 2 million, which is a national record for Britain.
Finally, check out the opinion polls. An overwhelming majority of Britons agree with the antiwar movement on a) the decision to invade and b) whether the troops should be pulled out.
That isn't too bad at all.
Luke - "I'm just repeating what I saw. I do think that given there's election fever in the air, even on the 45,000 figure it was still a poor showing. The message seemed very incoherent as well."
Three assertions there. The first is impossible for me to check. The second is a ridiculous non-sequitur, already discussed. The third is utter bollocks.
The message is as follows:
"Bring home the troops".
Not too confusing is it?
Great report - how about putting it up on Indymedia?
Have just done so.
Indymedia?!?!?! That's so 2000! Blogs are the new Indymedia. Indymedia sucks. Less than half of the local sites (which work) don't even put M19 as the lead story.
I agree, it has gone downhill, and its priorities are totally fucked. Still, people read it, and I will happily appropriate (or expropriate)...
Doug, good to see you here, can I just recommend Moshe Lewin's "The Soviet Century" just published in hardback? One of the best accounts I've read in years, although I disagree with some of its claims.
"Bring home the troops".
Not too confusing is it?
Yes it is, actually. And nearly everyone who vaguely matters agrees with me on that.
The message was incoherent. People watching wouldn't quite know what you wanted; was it a vote against Blair march? Was it a 'stop the war' march - which obviously won't happen if the troops pull out, or you support the terrorists - or was it a pull the troops out, but vote Labour, march, as some were saying? For the public there wasn't really any credible central message coming out - not that most people will have taken any notice to the third or fourth story on a Saturday news bulletin in any event.
Look, let me spell it out for you. It was a "Bring the Troops Home Now" march. Simple. Bring our troops home.
If those who "matter" agree with you, then why waste your time on mere amoebas like me? Shouldn't you be answering the phone to Henry Kissinger right now, dear? I'm sure he's anxious to engage the unimpeachable intellect of a young realpolitiker like you.
The people who matter are, amongst others, many antiwar Labour MPs who, like the unions who also opposed the war, now agree the troops should stay until the Iraqi government says they should leave, in line with UN resolutions. If the 'troops out' thing doesn't even wash with mainstream antiwar figures, then you're in trouble. It means you're only going backwards.
Me above.
Nonsense, the vast bulk of the British public desire the withdrawal of troops, the antiwar movement is articulating that, and it has never relied on the handful of Labour MPs who were prepared to speak out. The fact that, for example, Harry Barnes MP has become a Blairite arse-licker on this question, oughtn't disturb anyone.
Their position was, UN-fetishism, was always a minority current within the antiwar movement and in the public at large.
What's with the numbers fetish?
Where are you coming from Lenin: these comments come from another planet.
If you had your shit together, you'd a made some sandwiches, and not spent your afternoon in Pizza Hut.
I can see why all those demostraors were acusing you of being a spy. But if they are employing the likes of you, we can all slepp easier in our beds at night.
It was a good day: There were a lot of people there, much imaginative expression, lots of propaganda and organising material passed out - even the coppers were passive. Noone ended up in the clinker, and the movement was strengthened.
Get real or get lost.
>> an asian chap, not that that has any relevance <<
If it has no relevance, why mention it? Fucking creep.
Ed - are you sure you read my post? I agree with you that it was a good day, demonstrators weren't calling me a spy, and why moralise about how I choose to eat and drink?
Very odd comments on your part, although I suspect you were pissed at the time of writing... hmmm?
I'm glad you'd all fucked off by the time I had to cycle down Park Lane / Hyde Park corner to get home from work. Having to work on such a beautiful day was one thing, having my bike ride home spoiled by a mass of great unwashed would be quite another.
Oh, Staines, you are a wag! Personally, I think anyone who hoovers up U2's incessant output of anodyne shite (Bono's lyrics are always the same simple, asinine pairing of opposites) has no right to discuss the 'great unwashed'. You mucky little pup.
I jest of course. Although Pizza Hut? Lenin, you have no right to call me uncultured, you unctious berk.
It's nice to hear your voice again, by the way.
Hey we had at most a little under 1000 demonstrators in Helsinki, while the demo two years ago drew 20-40 000. How about that? The one in Stockholm was not much bigger, apparently. It seems that, quite understandably, there were bigger turnouts only in the countries that are part of the coalition. "Get our troops out!", and all that.
Is it just me or do half the people always disappear during the march? Still, you never actually see anyone leave... How does that happen? Should I be worried?
You should be worried that Dead Men Left has been described as "a fucking genius".
No, he(?) sounds like a genius to me. Although I haven't actually visited the blog.
"Where are you coming from Lenin: these comments come from another planet."
A classic!
Staines, you mean "unctuous" surely? You uncultured clod!
Yeah, Pizza Hut is a cheap and nasty joint. Actually, it isn't cheap at all, they charge way over the odds for what you actually get.
Finn, I suppose it is understandable that it is difficult to get people out if they know their government is not directly involved in the occupation. It is still important that you guys had the demo. It makes a difference.
So if two million before the war didn't manage to prevent it, is 50-100,000 going to stop it now? Or, to rephrase the question: Is the Pope a Calvinist?
No amount of wagging fingers is going to stop "the war that will not end in our lifetime" (D. Cheney), because what our fingers are wagging against is international organised crime. If widespread moral disapproval alone could prevent the heroin trade, then several hundred multi-millionaires would now be claiming the dole or earning an honest buck. They're not, for the simple reason that they don't give a shit about moral disapproval. Because - *being organised international criminals* - they're perfectly happy to carry on organising their lucrative crimes without our say-so. You might as well challenge the Kray Brothers to a debate at the Oxford Union.
Whoever said the antiwar demos were unfocused was seriously understating his case.
It was a great demo. Full. Stop.
Len, you fucking genius, you've scuppered my game, bells and whistles and all.
If I want nasty pizza action, I'll go to one of those "Deep Pan Pizza Co." shops - something like £5-6 and you can eat as much as you like! Which after a couple of slices is surprisingly less than you thought you wanted to eat. They also have an optimistically named "salad bar". I'd wag my fingers at them, if I could still move them after the food poisoning sets in.
I wish the protesters had moved down to Manchester Square from Grosvenor Square, forcing the gallery where I work to close. Then I could have got the day off.
Bloody protesters - they don't care about the little people any more.
warzsawa, protests are about shaping the ideological field, giving people the confidence to fight back. Now, that then leads into all sorts of different actions - in trade unions, at elections, through local actions.
If you think, as you clearly do, that demonstrations of any number are worthless (you are wrong, the Feb 15th demo came close to being the first to stop a war before it even began), what is your alternative? What do you suggest millions of people do to oppose war?
Staines, if only you'd told me this at the time. I didn't feel like tailing back to Park Lane, a nice detour would have been so invigorating.
"Derisory media coverage."
Well, be fair, it was a derisory trunout for a derisory cause!
Crystal Palace get bigger crowds.
Ooh!
'the Feb 15th demo came close to being the first to stop a war before it even began'
Any evidence for this? If you can prove it then I think I'll become a reformist!
The cops' attack on our anti-war demo in Auckland is getting a lot of media coverage and there's a demo planned for tmrw to mark the court appearances of the arrested:
http://indymedia.org.nz/newswire...30349/
index.php
Certainly didn't mean to sound like I was complaining. Whatever difference it can be thought to make, the organisers deserve our warmest thanks for what was a very positive and even invigorating event for everyone involved (even the Cursing Lady... yes, especially for her). All in all, a very nice afternoon, although I was a human popsicle by the end of it.
lenin, I didn't say the demos were "worthless", I said they were ineffective, which is plainly true. (Or has the war stopped?)
"protests are about shaping the ideological field"
fine, but what shape would you like that ideological field to be? i'd like it to be shaped a little more like a lawcourt, where lawyers persistently confront crooks with embarrassing evidence of their actual crimes, and then send them to jail.
"giving people the confidence to fight back."
fine again, but what does "fighting back" look like? having a stroll in the sun once a year with a few thousand like-minded people? i've nothing against that - i do it myself, after all - and as as your report shows, it can be quite good fun. does our harmless fun worry the crooks, though? not in the slightest. so what kind of a fight is that? handbags against the mafia.
what might actually worry the crooks, then? the prospect of jail. have a look at the ML message board: patrick cockburn demonstrates that the US has been collaborating with kidnappers in Iraq, and john pilger praises nafeez ahmed's new book about the 9/11 scam.
i confidently predict that lindsey german, george galloway and the finger-wagging not-in-my-namers will continue to ignore this kind of thing studiously. after all, we don't want to discredit the antiwar movement by pandering to conspiracy theorists, now, do we? not even when they're called pilger, or zinn, or cockburn. and not even when "conspiracy theories" (i.e. cases for prosecution) are literally the only thing that conspiratorial crooks have to fear.
Here's a thoughtful piece on the possible strategies of the anti-war movement from new Weekly Worker:
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/56...68/
whichway.htm
be interested to hear opinions on it.
That Ed above wasn't me. It was some so-called Ed. I am the real Ed. He is false Ed.
I'll have you know there's only one 'real' Ed around here.
I am a reasonable man and I'm prepared to compromise. Perhaps you could refer to yourself as 'Ed' in future - with inverted commas. When you tell people your name in person (in off-blog conversation) I would appreciate it if you did that quote- unquote hand gesture as you say it.
I am being very lenient on you.
And as for that "Luke," there's more than a couple letter's worth of difference between us.
Hmm. I am also a reasonable man, so I will just say that it wasn't me who posted as "Ed" above.
"It was a good day: There were a lot of people there, much imaginative expression, lots of propaganda and organising material passed out - even the coppers were passive"
As I said, I was at work, so it's unlikely I would have posted this.
*ed*
Oh, plus "Ed" posted at 7.06 am this morning, at which time I was out on my bike.
I wish I hadn't linked to that post. It makes my life look very dull. My life *is* very dull, but the fewer people who know this the better.
Why don't you join S.A.D.? I am the Founder, President-for Life and so far, alas, the sole member of the Society Against Diminutives. This habit of reducing people's Christian names to a monosyllabic, gutteral grunt more suited to the language of Kalahari bushmen is the only thing likely to dent my ardent pro-Americanism from where the ghastly habit has sprung.
You could also try following my lead and publishing your names in full, in the spirit of the Freedom of Information Act passed, and ignored, by this wonderful government. (Anyone read about Livingstone's "week of shredding"?)
Just call me Nostradamus (complete with predictions so vague as to fit any plausible outcome - "about 100-200,000"?)
Pizza Hut is shite. Deep Pan Pizza, on the top end of Whitehall conveniently opposite the Wetherspoons, is much better. £5 for all you can gobble of cheese-flavoured grease-laden filth. Ooer.
Not that I went to the Wetherspoons this time. I joined Bat in the petty-bourgeois utopia that is the post-demo Chandos.
All conspiracy theories are wank - except the one that says the police can't bloody count.
If I'd known you guys were at The Chandos, I'd have gate-crashed. Bastards.
To the pessimists - the anti-war movement may have not stopped the war, but it stopped many states from intervening, notably the #3 bomber in Serbia and #4 bomber in the '91 Gulf War: Canada. This is ample proof that Feb.15 almost stopped the war.
Apart from general strikes and revolutions, mass protests like Feb.15 are exactly how millions can oppose war and actually force change.
Who is this third 'Ed' then?
an agent provocateur no doubt.
damn his eyes.
Numbers:
Given that the winding detour to take in the US embassy did not cut through to Piccadilly but returned to Park Lane, Given also that the demo did stretch from Speakers Corner to Trafalgar Square (I was in contact with people at both ends) I think 100k is a reasonable guesstimate.
Even, as has been said, 45K is a significant amount for a campaign that's 4.5 years old and hardly at the critical point or similar to that of Feb 2003. That Crystal Palace get bigger crowds is not to the detriment of the radical left, but to the detriment of society today, alienation, atomisation and the premiership. If yesterday's demo had the same sort of publicity that 15/2/03 had (Mirror front pages, maps printed in advance in every national paper, Tessa Jowell trying to ban it for the good of Hyde Park grass etc.) it would have been far far bigger, so a direct comparision is unfair.
Numbers are important, otherwise every demo would have Tony Benn and half a dozen others, we'd save a fortune in printing and that'd be fine.
But also important is the apres-demo drinks. For me it's always The Marquis of Granby, Chandos Place, behind Charing X nick. Why? standard of conversation, easier to get a seat (upstairs), handy should any friends have been arrested that day, and serve a decent pint of Guinness.
but don't tell everybody...
I unfortunately couldn't go to the protest today in Budapest (yesterday was a workday, hence the delay), but fortunately there were plenty of others to replace me - it was two-three times bigger this time, compare the two photos:
2004 Peace Sign protest
(in the above I'm one of the black figures on the lower left or right...)
2005 Peace Sign protest
No dancing guinea pigs, then?
You "anti-war" types need to learn a few techniques from animal rightists who, if nothing else, certainly know how to pull off camera friendly protest.
You also need to end you own war on the animal nations if people like me are ever to see you as anything but hypocritical killers.
http://www.liberation-now.org/pi.../pix/
staff7.jpg
The protests in Canada certainly had an effect on government policy. I'd be interested to know if this were the case in other countries that wavered over joining the war. I didn't make it out today, but there was a good demo in Halifax, and I've heard that turnout was high in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.
"The protests in Canada certainly had an effect on government policy."
Canada's then-PM made it clear to the US that it would not participate in the attack on Iraq under almost any circumstances, far before there were any protests. You're definitely exaggerating the effects of your protests. I understand that all people want to _feel_ like their important or affected some sort of change, but here you clearly did not. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Hayward, that is totally untrue, but I wouldn't expect you to know better.
The Canadian government was duplicitously guarding its domestic support, but subsequent leaked material has shown that it was all ready to go to war:
"All the planning was moving ahead with the Prime Minister's full knowledge and then apparently on a capricious whim, on Groundhog Day, he checks the latest poll and brings everything to a shuddering stop".
Turkey is the clearest case of demonstrations preventing military action. US had to redraw its invasion plans after the Turkish parliament narrowly voted against participation.
The Chandos is a pub and a half. Cheap German beer and weird pictures on the walls. Yarrrr!
I am disgusted with Meaders' name dropping: "ooh, i had a pint with the Bat". Well, len, you pop down Houghton Street and you'll be able to tell everyone you had a pint and a fumble with the Staines in the Three Tuns. Ach.
Yes, I'm a disgrace - it would actually be more accurate to say I had a pint near Bat, who was animatedly discussing Zizek with Britain's Foremost Zappologist. I didn't want to interrupt, except to tell him his tie was horrible (and tied wrongly).
Excuse me! That was a vintage 1960s number tied with a full Windsor, I'll have you know.
And I was discussing Badiou, not Zizek.
>'the Feb 15th demo came close to being the first to stop a war before it even began'
>'Any evidence for this? If you can prove it then I think I'll become a reformist!
Scott: better get ready
read 'Blair's Wars by John Kampfner (I think that's his name!) it's all documentated in there
Badiou, Zizek... what's wrong with a bit of Deleuze and Guattari, eh? Now they were real Contintental philosophers.
Get with the programme, Meaders, D&G are so late 1990s...
Staines, I do pass the Three Tuns once in a while, but it looks a bit shit. Plus, they don't let you in if you've got workman's clothes.
Hey, tell you what, everyone's invited to the Tomb for a piss-up. You're paying though.
"Looks a bit shit"? You should've seen it before the refit. They'll serve anyone - even you, in your workman's clothes - and (whisper) it's the cheapest pub in central London.
Are we speaking of the same place here? The one near Oxford Street? Hmmm, let me check my bloody A-Z. I may drop in there sometime, when you fuckers are least expecting it...
Oh, I see. An LSE students haunt. Bugger.
Hayward,
I deliberatly said that the protests had an effect on 'government policy' because they influenced a whole range of things concerning our relationship with the Americans, not merely the war (though, as has been pointed out, you know piss all about that). Hence, Canada won't be joining the Ballistic Missle Defense Program.
Oxford Street? For shame! (Where on earth are you talking about?)
Meaders, there's a place up behind Oxford Street near the Marble Arch branch of M&S.
It bans men in workplace clothing, because people are always building and rebuilding round there and they only want proper clientele.
What are you doing down there? It's horrible. Try the selection of late-licence Spanish places round the back of the Virgin Megastore on the Tottenham Court Road junction.
I was loitering, in the usual way...
@Luke: "The message was incoherent. People watching wouldn't quite know what you wanted" - that's bullshit.
My friends and me watched TV (We live in Berlin) an we understand, what the want. Everyone in Germany does. Maybe you should move.
Lenin, its a fucking disgrace. When are you going to start a campaign to get the workmen of the world allowed into all pubs, regardless of soil on their clothes?
When I start giving two flying fucks.
Would love to see your photos.
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