Utter nonsense...you should know and do better
fred lapides | 02.27.05 - 4:35 pm | #

What exactly are you denying here fred?
Mark Elf | Homepage | 02.27.05 - 4:54 pm | #

In John Toland's "Adolph Hitler," 1976, he demonstrates that there WAS some organized Jewish support for Hitler:

"Hitler even had some Jewish support; the Jewish National Union not only advocated the Fuhrer's ban on entry of Eastern 'peddler Jews' but supported his new government."--p. 304

"Oskar's words were not necessary, for Hitler already had massive support on all levels of German society. Even the Association of National German Jews issued an appeal in his favor."--p.358

Also, the anti-Semitic Polish government that came to power after the death of the anti-anti-Semitic Pilsudski (pygmies following a giant) financially supported the Irgun as a way of getting rid of Poland's three million Jews.
Montag | 02.27.05 - 5:47 pm | #

That's why I said that these exposés are getting a bit of a cliché now. It's also why I find Fred's remark perplexing. Just goes to show, these things need stating and restating lest we forget.
Mark Elf | Homepage | 02.27.05 - 6:10 pm | #

No one denies that a few Jews supported Hitler. The question is whether it's fair to give the impression that there was anything approaching a meaningful percentage of support. There wasn't. The vast majority of Zionists opposed Hitler. If it has become a cliche to speak about so-called "Zionist" agreement with the Nazis (which is as usual, using the acts of a few to smear the whole), it is only a recitation of the Big Lie principle, which is that if you repeat a lie often enough, people will start to believe it. All of this is a grand attempt to practice what Joan Peters called "turnspeak", which, putting aside the merits of her book, is an accurate phrase to describe the practice of taking the truth about one side to an argument and foisting it upon the other side. Here, the truth, which is that the Arab relationship with the Nazis was far and away much more notable and extensive than any Zionist relationship, is being turned upon the pre-state Jewish-Zionist community in a transparent attempt to try and prove that there was some extensive organized collusion with the Nazis by the Zionists.

The Zionist furthest out in front of Hitler was Vladimir Jabotinsky, who was warning people about Hitler as far back as 1934. Mark doesn't mention him, and neither does Montag.
Anonymous | 02.27.05 - 6:59 pm | #

Time for a little Q & A.

Q: Jabotinsky - wasn't he an admirer of Mussolini?

A: Yes .
lenin | Homepage | 02.27.05 - 7:30 pm | #

Brenner (for it is he), you're still a lying racist. Zionism is an ideology, Arabs are a people. We can generalise about Zionism and what Zionists do and believe. We cannot (or at least the anti-racists among us) should not generalise about Arabs. Joachim Prinz was a mainstream Zionist, as was his friend Golda Meir, who you may have heard of. Zionist support for Hitler was ideological on the grounds that Hitler wanted Jews segregated and so did the Zionist movement. There were Arabs who wanted to ally to Hitler on the grounds that he was at war with the Brits. Israel's friend, Anwar Sadat, admired Hitler for that. The only ideological support I am aware of for Hitler in the Arab world is the Lebanese Phalange movement who are also Israel's only ideological allies in the Middle East.

You say that Montag and I don't mention Jabotinsky, here permit another quote from Shahak:

Herzl allied himself with the notorious Count von Plehve, the antisemitic minister of Tsar Nicholas II; Jabotinsky made a pact with Petlyura, the reactionary Ukrainian leader whose forces massacred some 100,000 Jews in 1918-21

Brenner? Not the Brenner, surely?
lenin | Homepage | 02.27.05 - 9:17 pm | #

No Michael L Brenner - a Zionist from New York. Jesus Lenni, you're so Freudian it's ridiculous. Woops, I mean Lenin.
Mark Elf | Homepage | 02.27.05 - 9:30 pm | #

What about the Stern Gang trying to contact the Nazis to form an alliance?
One can only repeat what the Jews told the Gentiles after the Holocaust:
"Were you DEAF, DUMB, BLIND?"

It's like someone said about the Ku Klux Klan: "They paid $10 to hate, and they want to get their money's worth."
Montag | 02.28.05 - 12:56 am | #

Mark can't seem to make an argument without an insult. What are you going to say next, that Golda Meir was a big Nazi ally? Saying one can generalize about Zionism because Zionism is an ideology is logical nonsense. As an ideology, its range is so wide, from people like A'had Ha'am who believed in conciliation with the Arabs to people far to the right of Jabotinsky, that those who generalize about it are either ignorant or purposeful fibbers.

You cannot say that the Arabs who allied with Hitler did it just because of the Brits. This was certainly not the Hajj Amin al-Husseini's only motivation.

Other than that, you are still a Stalinist who throws a tantrum every time he meets an opposing point of view. Too bad, so sad.
Anonymous | 02.28.05 - 1:10 am | #

The Zionist idea of ‘endless persecutions of Jews’ was invented in order to subdue the descendents of the medieval Jewish caste and to mobilise them for the goals of the Jewish elites. It caused paranoid tendencies among Jews. If you are a friend of Jews, do not encourage this paranoia. Anti-Semitism does not exist, Lisandro. The Jews are safe everywhere, as safe as anybody else on this unsafe planet; as safe as you are in blockaded Cuba, much more safe than Palestinians in Palestine, Iraqis in Iraq and Arabs in the US or France.
Israel Shamir | Homepage | 02.28.05 - 2:25 am | #

Is this the real Israel Shamir? Wow, an antisemite in the flesh. There's no other person who denies the existence of antisemitism.

Endless persecution of the Jews was invented by . . . endless persecution of the Jews.
Anonymous | 02.28.05 - 4:55 am | #

You write:
In fairness, Shahak goes on to say that "of course, Dr Prinz, like many other early sympathizers and allies of Nazism, did not realize where that movement (and modern antisemitism generally) was leading"
....

Well, what does this say about Prinz, Weltsch, Blumenfeld, and other supporters of Hitler, non-Zionist and Zionist, Jewish and Gentile, none of whom foresaw the future of the Nazi political sequence? Does it mean, they thought it was leading just to fascism and its large profits, just to the increase in their own power over others, just to the destruction of the emancipatory movements of German labour?

Is this exculpatory?
alphonsevanworden | Homepage | 02.28.05 - 10:34 am | #

Whoever quoted Shamir in these comments needs to know that they are confusing Isral SHAHAK, who was quoted in the jsf blog entry, and is a recently deceased and well-known Israeli dissident, with Israel SHAMIR, who is a former Jew turned rabid Christian, who despises all things Jewish. Most definitely NOT the same person.

Otherwise, I don't see any relevancy to the Shamir comments.
treeplanter | 02.28.05 - 11:54 am | #

The term "Zionists" is usually taken to mean those who have advocated/supported/carried out the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and the establishment of a colonial settler state for Jews. Literature dished out, for example, by El Al on its Israel flights tends to refer to Ahad Ha'am as a "Lover of Zion" as distinct from a Zionist in the Herzlian sense. Chomsky too refers to himself as a Zionist, to which I would say "no he isn't". You can generalise and say that Zionism is racism. To suggest that the British imposed Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was somehow representative enough of Arab opinion when he had no following in Palestine during the war, is simply a lie. To use it to make generalisations against a whole people is a racist lie. Regarding tantrums, I don't think any post or comment of mine could be considered a tantrum. This is something you accuse all anti-Zionists of. And calling you a racist liar (anonymous aka Michael Brenner) is hardly an insult.

Alphonsevanworden - "Is this exculpatory?" Not at all but it wouldn't be fair or accurate to suggest that the Zionists and other conservatives who supported Hitler knew of the genocide that was to come. Similarly, so-called "moderates" who support Zionism may not be aware of its potentially genocidal nature. Of course there were Zionists who knew of the genocide but still collaborated; one of whom (Kastner) found his way into Ben Gurion's cabinet before being assassinated.

Treeplanter - The post above the "anonymous" (Michael Brenner's) one is in the name of Israel Shamir. He has posted here before to condemn me for saying that he didn't actually exist. Wishful thinking on my part. So it might actually be him, who knows? My two cents on this is that there has not been continuous persecution of Jews but it has indeed happened at various times in history. Better to read Shahak on this - http://jewsagainstzionism.blogspot.com
Mark Elf | Homepage | 02.28.05 - 8:41 pm | #

Since the Shamir "comment" was simply an exact re-write of something off Shamir's website, complete with reference to "Lisandro" when there is no Lisandro here, We assumed that it was posted by someone other than Shamir, who thought it would diminish what Shahak said. If We are wrong, please kindly ignore Us.

Carry on.
The Queen of England | Homepage | 03.01.05 - 6:11 am | #

Was that the Real Queen of England? No, it was just me. Carry on.
treeplanter | Homepage | 03.01.05 - 6:14 am | #

I beg your pardon Ma'am.
Mark Elf | Homepage | 03.01.05 - 6:26 am | #

anyone care to discuss the palestinian/nazi collaborations?
claudia | 04.07.06 - 12:12 pm | #

I only know of the so-called Mufti in Jerusalem. As far as know, unlike the zionist movement, he didn't claim to be the saviour of the Jews.

But go on, if you want to be serious go ahead and discuss.
Mark Elf (levi9909) | Homepage | 04.07.06 - 2:46 pm | #