Under the terrorism bill will it now be an offence to support a democratically elected government?
Perhaps it'll also be an offence to send funds to Zionism? (Hee heee, one doubts it).
In the US it already is (an offence to support a democratically elected government).
Did anyone see the ray hannia article in ynet he makes great points
Like all religious movements, Hamas is driven by faith and therefore cannot compromise
The belief that Hamas will moderate and renounce violence, embrace peace based on compromise and recognize Israel is naïve and will lead to an escalation of violence.
In fact, those who claim Hamas will “moderate” are basically arguing that Hamas engaged in years of suicide bombings and violence against Israel simply to wrest government power from the rival Fatah organization.
Hamas is an Islamic terrorist group and is not capable of adjusting by embracing compromise as might any secular government. Hamas is a “movement” in constant flux fueled by the distortion of Islam, Palestinian suffering, Israeli policies gone wrong and the failure of the peace process.
Religious movements are driven by faith. Unlike organizations and secular governments, movements driven by faith cannot compromise.
Faith-driven movements don’t need leaders. The “faith-driven” followers will, when it is beneficial to the movement, return to violent self-sacrifice.
Israel proved the resiliency of Hamas. Despite an ongoing and illegal Israeli campaign of “extra-judicial killings” that targeted and destroyed its leadership, Hamas has survived and has become more powerful.
Suicide bombers part of Hamas' existence
Hamas is not just about faith but about the faithful individual. That’s why suicide bombing is so much as part of its existence. Suicide bombers die for the “cause,” sent off by the higher belief rather than a convening of strategic leadership. They exist in flux driven by the emotion of the times with minimal assistance.
This has caused Israel’s great quandary. How can they punish the terrorists when the terrorists take their own lives? So Israel strikes out at everything around the suicide bomber. And instead of undermining this movement, they strengthen it by driving more and more Palestinians into its fold.
Hamas is not only anti-Israeli. It is also anti-Palestinian. The Hamas vision of “Palestine” precludes any involvement of secular Palestinians, Christians or secular Muslims. The Hamas vision of Palestine is a “Frankenstein” monster pieced together with the remnants of Palestinian suffering and the shortcomings of a Palestinian government that was never a free sovereign nation, but a leadership imprisoned by a military occupation.
The goal of Hamas is to impose religious fundamentalism on Palestinian society such as separating men from women, forcing women to wear veils, and imposing their restrictive conduct on society, excluding such things as singing, dancing, creative expression, free speech, and most of all, criticism of itself or its distortion of Islam.
Vicious charter
On January 25, Hamas destroyed its secular Palestinian leadership. Its next target is Israel.
Hamas didn’t enter the elections to participate in a Democratic process. It gambled with nothing to lose. Hamas is not and has never been Democratic in any form.
Hamas has no elected leadership. It participates in Democracy to suffocate Democracy. Power is based on loyalty to religious fanaticism not political idealism or the greater good of the broader society.
While foes of Palestinian independence have constantly cited the PLO Charter as cause for alarm, the Hamas Charter is more vicious, riddled with uncompromising religious dictates and unwavering goals.
It may be true that many Palestinians turned to Hamas not because they embrace the notion of wrapping Palestinians in a societal Chador or Berqa, but because they were fed up with the corruption of Fatah and the PNA.
But that is a misleading notion. In fact, a Hamas spokesman has urged the European Union to not stop funding to a Hamas government, citing its many so-called charitable operations and services to the “people.”
The secular Palestinian government was never a sovereign nation. It had never morphed completely from a revolution to a sovereign government. It existed under a brutal and restrictive occupation.
Corrupt organization
Will Hamas be any less corrupt? It is true that Hamas has cared for its loyal Palestinian followers in the Gaza Strip better than the PNA cared for the Palestinian society. But Hamas services are not handed out without a price. Need must be matched by religious loyalty. Its schools do not teach free secular education but feed a narrow-minded religious agenda. Its health services are given to those who embrace its religious doctrine and agenda.
And, all of this has been done without any public accountability. What has Hamas done with its funds? Will it now open its books to public scrutiny?
The fact is that Hamas has embezzled in charitable funds and used the money for terrorist acts and suicide bombings. Is government corruption more reprehensible than moral corruption that justifies the murder of innocent civilians and, worse, the intentional goal of undermining a peace process?
Violence contradicts Democracy. Hamas should have been forced to publicly renounce all violence before being allowed to enter the Palestinian election process.
President Mahmoud Abbas failed because he had the legal power to act but chose not to act. Hamas acted outside of the Palestinian “rules of law.” It acted like a band of outlaws, vigilantes who decided on their own self-appointed authority to use violence against Israeli targets.
But while Democracy seeks to appease and open its arms to all to participate, a Hamas government will slowly smother a free Palestinian society. Tragically, the only real option left is the collapse of all Palestinian government and the tightening of Israeli occupation controls until Hamas is defeated.
A Hamas Palestinian State is no state at all.
The inevitable escalation of violence will be as painful and as costly in lives not just for Palestinians, but for Israelis, too.
Ray Hanania is an award winning Palestinian journalist, author and humorist. His columns seek to define the moderate and moral Palestinian voice. He can be reached at www.hanania.com
This has caused Israel’s great quandary. How can they punish the terrorists when the terrorists take their own lives? So Israel strikes out at everything around the suicide bomber. And instead of undermining this movement, they strengthen it by driving more and more Palestinians into its fold.
Forgive my ignorance. Is this a modest proposal? My paradigm shifter is in the shop.
Like all religious movements, Hamas is driven by faith and therefore cannot compromise
But religious movements do compromise, and have done. If they did not the Pope would be Emperor of Europe and the Jews would still sacrifice children to Moloch (a practise which, ironically, gave the world the word 'holocaust').
The belief that Hamas will moderate and renounce violence, embrace peace based on compromise and recognize Israel is naïve and will lead to an escalation of violence.
They have moderated enough to have held a year-long ceasefire, and they have agreed to recognise Israel.
Hamas is an Islamic terrorist group and is not capable of adjusting by embracing compromise as might any secular government.
Wow, that's fucking evil. I'm guessing this guy is on the Mossad payroll.
Hamas is a “movement” in constant flux fueled (sic) by the distortion of Islam, Palestinian suffering, Israeli policies gone wrong and the failure of the peace process.
Where to start? Israeli policies gone wrong? Fuckoff! The movement is fuelled by the Israeli policies going precisely as planned.
The failure of the peace process? What peace process? What failure? The "peace process", something which our author decides not to put quote marks around but does so for the Hamas "movement", is code for Israeli belligerence and eternal boot-dragging. Nothing more. That all (major) political parties in Israel are "rejectionist" is a well-established fact.
Israel proved the resiliency of Hamas. Despite an ongoing and illegal Israeli campaign of “extra-judicial killings” that targeted and destroyed its leadership, Hamas has survived and has become more powerful.
That new leaders take the place of old leaders does not mean leaders do not exist but they have changed. The the death of Ted Heath, former British Prime Minister, did not mean Britain does not have leaders.
Hamas is not just about faith but about the faithful individual. That's why suicide bombing is so much as part of its existence.
The first Hamas suicide bomb occurred not after a radical lecture by a cleric but after secular attacks by Israel on their land.
This has caused Israel's great quandary. How can they punish the terrorists when the terrorists take their own lives?
A Palestinian worries about Israel's "great quandary". And the "great quandary" is not how to end and illegal occupation, end ethnic cleansing, and pay reparations for genocide, but it's how to kill Palestinians more effectively.
Hamas is not only anti-Israeli. It is also anti-Palestinian.
Of course it is.
The Hamas vision of Palestine is a “Frankenstein” monster pieced together with the remnants of Palestinian suffering and the shortcomings of a Palestinian government that was never a free sovereign nation, but a leadership imprisoned by a military occupation.
A bit like every other resistance group the world has ever fucking known, then. The assorted groups of the French Resistance were ideologically estranged, but worked, violently, together, to end military occupation. They did not have the means or the method to reconstruct France, and they did not need those skills or mechanisms because their role was to free their country. Nothing more.
Hamas didn't enter the elections to participate in a Democratic process. Hamas is not and has never been Democratic in any form.
Except when fucking elected overwhelmingly by an electorate.
Hamas has no elected leadership. It participates in Democracy to suffocate Democracy.
So? Most internal political party elections can be, and are, rigged. That's why Chomsky, with good reason, calls the "real race for the Whitehouse" the race to get the correct business/war friendly person nominated by the party.
While foes of Palestinian independence have constantly cited the PLO Charter as cause for alarm, the Hamas Charter is more vicious, riddled with uncompromising religious dictates and unwavering goals.
It's better to waver and compromise having suffered ethnic cleansing & genocide...??
Its schools do not teach free secular education but feed a narrow-minded religious agenda. Its health services are given to those who embrace its religious doctrine and agenda.
A little bit exactly like every Muslim and Jewish and Catholic and Protestant school in Europe, then.
The fact is that Hamas has embezzled in charitable funds and used the money for terrorist acts and suicide bombings.
Hamas embezzles money to fund resistance to a genocidal occupation! And there was little-old-moron-me thinking embezzlement is for private gain.
Is government corruption more reprehensible than moral corruption that justifies the murder of innocent civilians and, worse, the intentional goal of undermining a peace process?
Peace process? Hahahahahaha. This guy is a fucking clown.
Violence contradicts Democracy.
Violence IS democracy, as everyone who lives in a Western Democracy is fully aware of.
Hamas should have been forced to publicly renounce all violence before being allowed to enter the Palestinian election process.
And agree to the occupation?
President Mahmoud Abbas failed because he had the legal power to act but chose not to act.
And, if he obeyed the wished of this author, he could have been "democratically" elected having first democratically barred all opposition during elections.
Hamas acted outside of the Palestinian “rules of law.” It acted like a band of outlaws, vigilantes who decided on their own self-appointed authority to use violence against Israeli targets.
Erm, yes. They are a resistance movement. Duh. After fifty years of genocide and ethnic cleansing I think I understand why. And, of course, those of French Resistance, or the Resistance Fighters of East European Jewry, were all called outlaws and vigilantes and terrorists by the occupying authorities and their sellout lickspittle lackeys.
But while Democracy seeks to appease and open its arms to all to participate
It does? When? Where? Ever?
Tragically, the only real option left is the collapse of all Palestinian government and the tightening of Israeli occupation controls until Hamas is defeated.
Fucking Palestinians, you deserve it.
Ray Hanania is an
... appologist.
His columns seek to define the moderate and moral Palestinian voice.
His columns exist to poke the resistance up the bottom while denying the facts, claiming there IS a peace process, that democracy ISN'T violent and exclusivist, etc.
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I commend you.
Israeli War Crimes are worse than and the cause of Palestinian 'terrorism' - stop the occupation and the so-called 'terrorism' goes away
- there are very good reasons for Palestinian resistence -
- as Tariq Ali said about the Resistence in Occupied Iraq, given the nature of the occupation you expect the resistence to be an oil painting -
I say this as someone, just like the rest of you, who only want to see all people left in peace to get on with their own lives in peace and quiet, both Israeli folk and Palestinians.
- the Israeli occupation will continue until the Palestinians stop their 'terrorism' - !
What about Israelis who live illegally in the Palestine (WB & G) - surely these people know the risks they are running by stealing and colonising other peoples land and resources, and that they and their family and children run grave risks by thus, putting themselves so obviously in harms way ?
- then there is the question of actions carried out in 'proportionality'to crimes committed against the victim state or people - in that Palestinians are allowed to respond in kind to Israeli violence ie the on-going occupation, which outstrips even terrorism in the hierarchy of international criminal acts.
I suppose being the "only democracy in the middle east" means that it is OK to elect terrorists and war criminals. But when unsavory characters from Hamas get democratically elected it just shows that they aren't ready for democracy, or it isn't a real democracy or ... whatever.
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I suppose that obtuseness has always been the excuse for neo-con hypocrisy.
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It has everything to do with NOT supporting any regime (elected democratically or not) that teaches their kids fron infancy on that you can get into heaven by murdering Jews.
Let me ask you... do you support the murdering of Jews?
If the man personally responsible for the killing of thousands of Palestinian and Lebanese civilians, not to mention the dispossession of thousands more, can become a 'man of peace,' one wonders why exactly Hamas should remain beyond the pale.
Could you explain why I am wrong to be angry at the anti-Hamas essay?
'Like all religious movements, Hamas is driven by faith and therefore cannot compromise
But religious movements do compromise, and have done. If they did not the Pope would be Emperor of Europe and the Jews would still sacrifice children to Moloch (a practise which, ironically, gave the world the word 'holocaust').'
Child sacrifice to Moloch was a Canaanite practice and not an Israelite or Jewish one. We know that Israelites at times succumbed to Baal worship and other idolatrous practices of the Canaanites, Philistines or Phoenicians, but this comment refers (anachronistically)to 'the Jews' as if it was a core Jewish practice, when the Mosaic code specifically forebade it. Having suggested that worship of Moloch is a Jewish practice Anon then links it to the use of the word holocaust, which apparently is 'ironic' - do you know who Anon is?
Yes Mosaic code forbids child sacrifice, and see Abraham & Issac and all that. I do not wish to be seen suggesting it was a 'core' Jewish activity, certainly post-Moses. However some post-Moses Biblical Jews did engage in the practise, famously Solomon.
However, the classic Blood Libel is the Jews of Europe engaged in similar practises. It is a libel because no evidence whatsoever is offered to back-up the assertion. I certainly have not stated that libel whatsoever in any form. Observation of the Biblical-era sacrifices to Moloch does not constitute a Blood Libel, unless you consider yourself as having just Blood Libelled the Canaanites, Philistines, and Phoenicians??
The word holocaust you appear not to know, otherwise you'd understand the irony. Permit me to illuminate you. The word was devised around 1250 and means "burnt offering", from the Greek holokauston, of holokaustos, which means "burned whole," from holos "whole" + kaustos, verbal adjective of kaiein "to burn". It is a Biblical word for Solomon's (and other's) sacrifices to Moloch. The irony is a word that borders on the anti-Semitic has come to represent the Shoah. I did not say it was funny, but I do not retract that it is, like so much in life, ironic.
Going further, I would like to observe that you have missed the point. You make criticism that I resurrected the (well-recorded) practises of some of Biblical (and pre-Biblical) Jewry. The point you missed is that these practises did not carry over to the modern age. That's the point. Religious groups, even ones so dedicated as to sacrifice infants alive in fire, can self-moderate themselves out of it (Abraham, Moses, those post-Solomon, etc.), and thus was a rejection of the assertion that because Hamas is religious it cannot reform, revise, or adapt to a gentler, secular world, as Judaism and Christianity has.
No, he does not know who I am (unless he has spies). I am an infrequent poster here and at Lenin's, under the same name 'Anon'. I am a travelled political gentile with Jewish connections, firmly anti-Zionist, anti-War, anti-Racist, anti-Globalisation.
That's a lot of antis, so you can know I am pro-intoxication, pro-choice, and pro-selfdetermination.
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If they do mean it, then they are racist scum.
They are also homophobic, misogynist, anti-trade union, anti-democratic, anti-secular, antisemitic and anti-Christian.
The left thought that it could make an "anti-imperialist united front" with the Islamists in Iran in 79. Iran butchered the left, using the Stalinist Tudeh Party, and then of course, butchered the Stalinist Tudeh Party.
over on Engage, there's a post that gives some quotes from the Hamas Charter. It also has long extract of Hannah Arednt on the Protocols. Engage might be Zionist scum, but Hannah Arendt wasn't.
By the way, Malachi is quite right. You should know better than to accuse Jews of sacrificing children as part of their religious duty. Do people on this blog really need to be told that? Come on Elf. Do your job. Lets have a few more bannings.
Expect corruption worse than Fatah's. Fatah is atleast secular. Palestine has always been secular before.
- isn't that a comprise with Christian teachings, as if it isn't completely obvious ? -
- she also happens to be Queen Elizabeth I of Scotland, but she isn't the head of the Protestant Church of Scotland, Jesus the Messiah is -
- amongst the Protestant Northern Irish, as well, she uses the old Popish title of 'Defender of the Faith', a compromise of a compromise if you like, guaranteeing the freedom of Protestants to worship free from persecution by the British state and the Crown using a Roma Catholic formula.
Religions and philosphies when put into practice have to compromise with the real world - that's half their fun for nuetral observers but can be a bit of a bind for their followers.
If communism says that its an historical inevitability that class war, the state etc will all eventually cease to exist, and everyone will be free and happy, then what was the Soviet Union all about, and why try to make the historically inevitable happen faster ?
Sometimes, its far more fun just being an interested onlooker - it can get quite messy formulating dogma and doctrines out of contradictory sacred texts and the rantings of various philosophers down the centuries.
There are many issues I have with Hamas but calling such a group "racist scum" considering the oppression they have suffered at the hands of some Jews purporting to be acting in the name of all Jews is a bit OTT. I actually saw Dr Azzam Tamimi tonight and a zionist in the audience quoted all that stuff about the protocols and so on. Tamimi said that he had tried talking Hamas out of having that stuff in their charter because it was nonsensical conspiracy theory stuff. That's what he said and I agree as I'm sure you do. He said that the leadership was trying to quietly drop the charter in the hope that no one would notice and he was laughing at them when he said this. He said that the quietly dropping it idea was wrong and that they should repudiate such nonsense. What we mustn't do is conflate the repudiation of the State of Israel with the protocols stuff. That would be to conflate anti-zionism with anti-semitism and only liars and fools do that.
Let the Arab nations do it. They have enough money.
On what basis do you allege that Solomon (I assume you are referring to King Solomon) practised child sacrifice?
Malachi
I know, I know – it's a matter of priorities.
The left is irrelevant in the Middle East. Look at all that early love affair, both inside and outside Israel, with the murderous Labour Party in office.
There is only one thing that matters. Israel's continuing ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people.
Hamas is a 'dilectical' (crib word for old lefties) outgrowth of Israeli tyranny.
Israeli criminality is the West's greatest moral dilemma. Deal with that and a lot of other problems fall away.
Are you suggesting that Jews have a religious duty to support Israel because the State (you allege) deliberately murders children?
You say that the state of Israel deliberately murders children - it claims it does so in the name of all Jews. Where is the evidence for the this?
Mark, can you explain to me why this is not a modern variant of the blood libel?
Malachi
Mark, you think that people who parrot the most antisemitic garbage (read what it says in the Covenant) are not racist scum if they are also oppressed?
But are not white kids in Oldham and in Bermondsey, who grow up in poverty and in a place where the welfare state has absolutely let them down - aren't they also oppressed? But we don't make apologies for them if they start blaming "the Jews" or "the Muslims" or "the poofs" do we?
Do you think that being Palestinian makes you so supid as to think that all that garbage in the Covenant is OK? This also is an imperialist way of thinking.
And not every Palestinian adopts antisemitism as their credo, do they? Most of them understand exactly what is going on. They understand that there is a difference between the actions of the Zionist state and the idea of a global Jewish conspiracy.
So why are you suddenly going soft on racism? You are usually so clear against racism. But in this instance, so soft.
Here is a bit of the Hamas Covenant:
For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. ...They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.
You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.
So - we support the oppressed in their struggle against the occupation - but are not soft on racism. Its not rocket science, is it?
I do not know what Hamas's plans are. I do not know if it will moderate some, and if it does so, whether they will be able to prevail in votes.
I think we must be willing to wait and see.
Olmert has done good and bad, dismantling Amona and cutting off the tax transfer.
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AJP,
Hamas's renunciation of violence MUST include saying it will not invade Iraq ;)
But thanks for that lengthy quote. The zionist at the meeting last night said the same and I couldn't find it all in one place. The Fatah guy at the meeting pointed out that whilst Hamas won control of the PLC, the majority of the electorate voted against Hamas. I think he said 44% voted for Hamas. I think we'll see Hamas changing a lot of its stated positions. But I do realise that there are many zionists who want to use any action on the part of Palestinians to justify all Israeli atrocities past, present and future.
'You think that Hamas is no threat to the left because people in the Middle East are incapable of being sufficiently sophisticated to understand socialist, or even democratic ideas. I think that is imperialist nonsense.'
I would have to say that this sentence is outstanding jibberish, and unrelated to my point that brought it forth.
The virulent attack on Hamas' racism is attacking the symptom.
Hamas' stupidities are a product of generations of oppression, racist oppression by a Zionist state.
Ella Fitzgerald my dear Watkins.
Hamas' racism in word, Zionist racism in deed.
WHile Alf is going ballistic about a text, Israel continues to dispossess a people.
Priorities anyone? After all, this continuing outrage is precisely why ME has to waste his time running this blog.
Edwin said: 'The state of Israel deliberately murders children – it claims it does so in the name of all Jews. As far as I can tell, support of Israel is presented as a religious duty.'
Where is the evidence that the Stae of Israel deliberatly murders children in the name of all Jews? Who presents the killing of children as a religious duty?
Why is this not a blood libel?
Malachi
Mark defended Anon.
'Steady on Alf. Both Anon and AJP have come up with explanations.'
Mark has just been forced to delete Anon's post on the next thread, cos it overtly linked into classical Jewish conspiracy stuff on an evangelical site - XXXXXX though it took time for him to do so and the rest of you Elves seemed happy to follow on from his/her comments.
I'm not embarrassed. You however should be ashamed.
Malachi
Edited By Siteowner
You have hit upon one thing that he posted that was anti-semitic but you were accusing him, edwin and me before anon's last (and i mean last) post appeared.
You said it was anti-semitic to say that Israel kills children. You said it was anti-semitic to say that Israel presents itself as acting on behalf of all Jews. You said it was anti-semitic to say that support for Israel often presents itself as a religious commitment. All of these lies by you were before anon posted an anti-semitic diatribe from the anti-semitic site you are now trying to promote. The fact that you didn't notice it was anti-semitic until Daveg pointed it out to you says it all about you. And the fact that Mooser was the first to notice it says a lot about him. In fact it was Mooser's denunciation of a post I hadn't fully read that lead me to read it and then delete it.
Thanks again (and again) Mooser.
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