anyone who has read about Zionism knows that Ahad Ha'am, Martin Buber, Judah Magnes are part of the history. Even Moshe Dayan always wrote about his Arab friends as a moshavnik. The Jewish dream is to live in peace with Arabs, not to kick them out.
linguist | 03.29.06 - 2:53 am | #

The Jewish dream? Surely there are/were many Jewish dreams. Dayan might have written about Arab friends but there are enough writings and speeches about the zionist dream of ridding Palestine of its Arab population to show that the expulsion was a mainstream aspect of the zionist dream.
Mark Elf (Levi9909) | Homepage | 03.29.06 - 4:58 am | #

If this is so linguist, then why have ALL Israeli governments steadfastly refused the RIGHT of return for the Palestinians ethnically cleansed in 1948?

BTW - it is a RIGHT, one that neither the Zionist regime, nor my war criminal president has the authority to abrogate, despite his outrageous letter to Ariel Sharon (of April 14, 2004) which states that Israel's status as a "Jewish State" allows it to abrogate the rights of the indegenous non-Jews in this regard.

"The United States is strongly committed to Israel's security and well-being as a Jewish state. It seems clear that an agreed, just, fair, and realistic framework for a solution to the Palestinian refugee issue as part of any final status agreement will need to be found through the establishment of a Palestinian state, and the settling of Palestinian refugees there, rather than in Israel."

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GregPotemkin | Homepage | 03.29.06 - 6:03 am | #

Well one could be surprised that a politician aligned with Begin would say such a thing (did I get that right?). Its also true that statements about 'peace' are of course ubiquitous (who could be against it?) as indeed are statements about love and understanding. What is more unusual is some sense of who is the oppresser and who the oppressed (although the Revisionists were clearer and more honest about this then Labor Zionists). A break from tiresome victimology would indeed allow for a sensible discussion.
johng | 03.29.06 - 10:19 am | #

!Getting back to Moshe Arens, its kinda - 'One morning Moshe woke up early. He had never done it before, but that morning he decided. Before placing the bag over his head he was really going to do it. Moche struggled towards that burning square of light and then...he DID it - he actually LOOKED out the WINDOW...'
Ken Waldron | 03.29.06 - 10:32 am | #

-Sorry about the double post. laptop had a fit and I thought no1 was lost.
Ken Waldron | 03.29.06 - 12:33 pm | #

Sorted it now thanks
Mark Elf | Homepage | 03.29.06 - 1:06 pm | #

It may be relevant, or maybe not, that there are some major political differences in Moshe Arens' family. His brother Richard has very different politics - e.g., http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/.../ 831128008.html
as does his son Yigal
http://student.cs.ucc.ie/cs1064/...s.php? auid=3260
Seth Kulick | 03.29.06 - 5:23 pm | #

Nothing they say would surprise me.
Nor would anything they do.
But one is just some vibrations of the atmosphere within the range of human hearing.
The other is "facts on the ground"

"...the establishment of a Palestinian state, and the settling of Palestinian refugees there, rather than in Israel."

I know where he can pick up some cattle cars, cheap.
Mooser | Homepage | 03.29.06 - 8:20 pm | #

I suppose it shows that the maninstream left in Israel are the ones in favour of separation between the two peoples whereas the right are against separation and have at least some idea of living together. I've always felt that right wingers are more open to the idea of one state than most left wingers, oddly enough, though I suppose it's because they see it in terms of one Jewish State. But all the same they don't like separation and division.


Deborah
Deborah Maccoby | 03.29.06 - 8:21 pm | #

Only Bush could put "just, fair and realistic" in the same sentence with ethnic cleasing.
Well, to be fair I can think of a few others.
Mooser | Homepage | 03.29.06 - 8:36 pm | #

Only Bush could put "just, fair and realistic" in the same sentence with ethnic cleasing.
Well, to be fair I can think of a few others.

Maybe a few others could say it Mooser, but only George Bush could actually convince himself that he was being "just, fair and realistic" in supporting it.
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GregPotemkin | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 5:38 am | #

Linguist
I find your comments breath-taking. Pretty much all aggressors want peace - if the circumstances are right - and this includes the most vociferous war-mongers. A powerful strand of Zionist opinion wanted to get rid of the indigenous Palestinian population. Quite often in the early Zionist days, Zionists seemed to spend hardly any time even thinking about the rights of the Palestinians. Later on Zionist opinion became increasingly keen to get rid of the Palestinians.
Anonymous | 03.30.06 - 3:29 pm | #

GregPotemkin, there's a joke that Bush always speaks to audiences as if he's explaining something to a child. The reason is that that's exactly how it was explained to Bush in the first place!
Montag | 04.01.06 - 9:54 pm | #