|
|
|
The problem with attributing what Pipes does to "the Lobby" is that it suggests coordination and conspiracy, and suggests paranoia on the part of the accuser. Whereas in some Arab countries such a website would have to be coordinated, here in the good old USA anyone with a computer can set up a blog and write anything they desire. Hence, Mark Elf.
linguist |
03.31.06 - 4:19 pm | #
|
|
Linguist,
But surely this is a bit disengenuous. I can remember engaging in one of those futile screaming matches on a blog about Edward Said calling him a 'liar' (of course we don't do things like that on Jews Sans Frontier where we encourage civilised dialogue) and I began to notice that the charges were a little repetitive. Googling it I found the source on a peculiarly nasty site (was it CAMRA..or AIPAC) which essentially acted as a campaign centre for bloggers.
"Edward Said the personification of an Arab Liar" which gave detailed instructions about exactly how to respond to Hitchen's defence of Said, encouraging people to link Arab and liar togeather. Now, thats one example and does'nt say much, but the question is: If the person said "but they did'nt tell me to copy and paste that crap I did it of my own free will, therefore there is no lobby" that would be a bit silly would'nt it?
Is there not some naivity about both lobbies and politics involved here? Lobby politics in the US is well funded and internetted and the 'Jewish Lobby' is no different to the Italian one or the Cuban one in that sense. Some Socialists I know suggest that one should say Zionist rather then Jewish. I take the point but the reality is that US lobby politics is ethnic politics. I think its more accurate to say that the Jewish Lobby has been hijacked by the Zionist lobby. Liberal Zionists might prefer to say its been hijacked by right wing Zionists.
johng |
03.31.06 - 5:02 pm | #
|
|
Then again I'm sure some people would claim that Mark Elf was part of a "vast Liberal conspiracy" the product of an unholy alliance between leftists, anti-semites and Muslims, inspired by a deranged anti-Americanism and threatening the end of civilization as we know it.
One of the surprising things about these discussions is that the American political right's (and many on the Zionist right) explanation of contemporary global politics is a vast conspiracy theory. I've never met Mark, I've never met Lenin (on his blog), and I'm sure we do everything of our own free-will. But if someone accused me of being part of their lobby I'd be flattered. Shame it is'nt big enough.
johng |
03.31.06 - 5:08 pm | #
|
|
Linguist you are doing the same thing as Pipes. The article went out of its way to say that the Lobby had no unified leadership or direction. It made no suggestion that Pipes takes orders or direction from it. It posited Pipes as an Israel lobbyist which I think is undeniable. Pipes was being disingenuous.
So far there have been mostly dishonest attacks on the article though Chomsky and Massad were honest attempts at critique. It is clear that many of the blog comments on Engage and the Guardian blogs are being made by people who haven't troubled to read the original article.
Mark Elf (Levi9909) |
Homepage |
03.31.06 - 6:15 pm | #
|
|
What I find to be interesting about all of this is the fact that the “Zionist Lobby” essentially wants to deny its own existence.
If writers of an article regarding the, for example, pro-life movement, were to accuse me of being part of the “Right to Life Lobby” (or Movement), and said that “Greg Potemkin, ‘a passionately pro-life paleo-conservative’, has attempted to push a pro-life agenda”, I would readily admit to it, and perhaps even thank them for acknowledging my efforts.
In fact, I don’t think that I would even be upset, if in describing my opposition to abortion they were to bring up my status as a former fetus (that’s feotus to those in the UK who don’t know how to spell properly).
Why, on the other hand do Zionists try and misdirect the conversation, and make silly accusations when people speak of the Zionist Lobby? Do they, perhaps deep down, realize the impropriety of the Zionist position, and follow the old rule that so long as one is accusing his accuser, he need not answer the original accusation?
.
GregPotemkin |
Homepage |
03.31.06 - 9:50 pm | #
|
|
By the way - Mark, sorry for going so far afield with my analogy.
GregPotemkin |
Homepage |
03.31.06 - 9:55 pm | #
|
|
We've all got our agenda to promote Greg. But don't do it again!
Mark Elf (Levi9909) |
Homepage |
03.31.06 - 9:57 pm | #
|
|
I don't know Pipes credentials by heart, so I won't say what he is. I can say there is a difference between a "supporter" of Israel and a "lobbyist" for Israel. Pipes is the first, I am not sure about the second. I am the first, definitely not the second (not registered). The point is, that "lobbyist" conjures up an image of control, whereas supporters or critics of Israel can have an infinite number of shades of gray, and can simply write their personal opinions.
I am aware of "rapid response teams" on the Israeli side, but by visiting honestreporting.com and clicking Palestinian links, I find numerous "how to's" for people writing letters critical of Israel, etc. I find both types of automated responses boring, and though I repeat myself when I get tired, I try to make every letter fresh and not formulaic, and if possible and appropriate, tailored and personal.
linguist |
03.31.06 - 10:13 pm | #
|
|
Oh behalf of the city of Philadelphia, I'd like to personally apologize for Daniel Pipes.
Dan Coyle |
04.01.06 - 5:10 am | #
|
|
I'm not fond of Burston, but check this out on Pipes;
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pag...07&
contrassID=2
Hulkagaard |
04.01.06 - 6:47 am | #
|
|
Daniel Pipes's letter made me laugh: nothing in it really undermined Mearsheimer and Walt. The 'cancel my sub' letter sought to align David Duke with the original, but revealed that Duke hadn't actually read the thing. But the letters from Adam Glanz and Herf & Markovites are serious and need a longer response in the LRB.
badmat |
04.01.06 - 1:52 pm | #
|
|
Surely the definition of lobby in relationship to US politics is uncontroversial (given that US politics often seems to resemble simply an assemblage of ethnic lobbies). I can see how in relationship to British politics talk of The Zionist or the Jewish Lobby (with a capital L) might seem a bit overdone, but surely not in the US?
Daniel Pipes is well known not simply as a 'supporter of Israel' but as an ideologically committed activist who conducts and organises witch hunts in US universities against anyone associated with the left and has a long history of association with political right (his earlier incarnation as some sort of leftist is occassionally wheeled out for emotional effect).
He's an important and powerful political figure and not simply an 'individual' with 'views'.
johng |
04.01.06 - 3:57 pm | #
|
|
walt fired? :
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?a...?
articleid=8787
duke smear widespread:
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2006/...-in-
action.html
bimsherman |
04.01.06 - 4:48 pm | #
|
|
Very interesting link, Hulkagaard. Historically, it is true that very few enemies (if any) in history have spontaneously negotiated peace without one of them decimating or vigesimating the other. What is interesting is that Pipes, and many American Jews, and some Israelis, believe that Israel has not won total victory yet. They feel, honestly in their souls,that Jewish softness (think of King Saul and Agag the Amalekite) has occurred. Others feel that Jewish ethics, or civility, or democratic principles, or humanism, or some variant thereof has allowed gthe Palestinian problem to fester.
My own view is more complicated yet. I think Israel is paralyzed by indecision. The Palestinians have a true humanitarian crisis, and a perpetual low level conflict, but not an ongoing war. Israel has tried to contain the conflict, but it has boiled over. Now it has no solutions except to be militaristically dominant, a la Pipes, or give Hamas a military base in its state five miles from Israel, capable of hitting Tel Aviv with missiles and killing Jews with terror whenever possible. Any solution is the least bad solution. That is why Olmert got elected.
linguist |
04.01.06 - 4:57 pm | #
|
|
Now it [Israel]has no solutions except to be militaristically dominant, a la Pipes, or give Hamas a military base in its state five miles from Israel, capable of hitting Tel Aviv with missiles and killing Jews with terror whenever possible.
My own view is that military victory is the only solution for the cause of Justice. The idea that Zionists should remain capable of hitting Arab cities, and killing Arabs with their racist terror machine whenever possible is what must be opposed.
.
GregPotemkin |
Homepage |
04.01.06 - 7:20 pm | #
|
|
Soon after the 9/11 attacks a U.S. airliner crashed due to spontaneous structural failure. Daniel Pipes wrote an article insisting that it was a terrorist bomb--with only hearsay evidence to go on. The trouble is that our National Transportation Safety Board investigators set the standard for such investigations, and they found that the pilots had put too much stress on the tail of the airplane, causing it to rip off. They had reams of evidence and past problems with the aircraft to back them up.
So who are you gonna believe, someone with an agenda like Daniel Pipes, or professionals who want to keep more planes from crashing like that? If Pipes had his way the problem would never even be addressed and people would keep falling out of the sky, while the government went blind looking for terrorists that didn't exist in the first place. Oh yeah, Pipes is a prince among men!
Montag |
04.01.06 - 9:43 pm | #
|
|
We have Melanie Phillips for that kind of thing.
Mark Elf (Levi9909) |
Homepage |
04.02.06 - 12:37 am | #
|
|
That a moderate like Linguist can present such views is actually quite frightening. The shift to the right continues apace. 'Our softness' etc. I'm inescapably reminded of the nazi theorist schmmitt who invented the idea taken up by the neo-cons, that liberal values lack martial values with which they can defend themselves. Schmitt was committed to liberal values with martial values. He ended up teaming up with the Nazies. For him the problem was Communists. For those like Linguist its Hamas and probably a sneaking sympathy for arguments suggesting that the sea of Islam must be drained (ideologically not physically).
Be very careful were you end up...
johng |
04.02.06 - 10:56 am | #
|
|
|
Commenting by HaloScan
|