PS al-jazeerah is not the same thing as al-jazeera.
1- Are they implying that the people who invite Atzmon are endorsing his views and writings which seem to be damaging to Palestinians and Jews in general and not only to zionists (actually I am not familiar with what Atzmon writes and says)? If yes then why not take similar approaches when some zionists are invited by groups to speak and write things which are very damaging to palestinians and Muslisms directly ? If they want to protect palestinians from prejudice then why not protect them from the prejudice thrown upon them by zionists regularly portraying them as Mulsim extremists ? And if they want to protect Jews from the prejudice done to them by someone like Atzmon then why not try to protect them from the prejudice some zionists are actually bringing upon Jews indirectly ?
2- This mention in the letter bothers me:
''we cannot understand how
it benefits the Palestinian struggle to invite and promote an individual who speaks as Atzmon does, regardless of his origins''. Does this mean that they aknowledge that there is a difference, in criticising zionists and Jews, between having a Jew or a non-Jew doing the criticissm, when it comes to be protected from accusations of anti-semitism ?
The reference to his origins is because he is a former Israeli paratrooper and some say that this validates his opinions. In fact that was one of the SWP's arguments when some of their own members tried to persuade them not to host him at Marxism and at Bookmarks.
All the things which might make him a good jazz soloist make him a terrible political writer.
The title of this "blog" is a bit of a misnomer, is it not? Because whilst you purport to be "sans frontieres", the current condemnation of Gilad Atzmon shows quite clearly that you do, indeed, have definitive borders (or, if you prefer, frontieres). And that's a pity because it immediately changes the perception of your web site and turns it into a conduit through which flows the time worn efforts to stifle free speech and blackmail organizations, in this case, Gilad Atzmon, and the Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign.
First of all, it is absolutely none of the Nationall Committee of the Jewish Socialist Group's business who the SPSC invites to speak at their 22 November 06 event or any other event. You have no authority and no legitimate right to interfere in the internal decisions of an organization of which you are certainly not a part thereof, and the fact that you are attempting to do so in this instance is, to me, reprehensible.
The SPSC has, in fact, shown terrific judgment in inviting Gilad Atzmon to speak and perform at its November event. The listeners will enjoy excellent music interspersed with a straight forward, honest narrative. I have been reading Gilad's essays for the past number of years, and let me suggest to you -- no, let me state emphatically to you because suggesting never has the desired effect, you know, due to the closed mind syndrome you're suffering from --that he most decidedly is not a racist. Truthful he is. You do know what truth means, don't you? Or perhaps not. A never-ending feast of propaganda tends, I am sure, to distort truth.
The condemning, patronizing, holier than thou tones resonating within this "open letter" (and elsewhere) show the reader some very small-minded people, people who are not happy unless they are bringing out and dusting off the old antisemitism accusation.
When are you going to accept that Gilad Atzmon has way too much integrity, too much humanity, too much intelligence, and too much class to be concerned with such asinine labels? What he is is one of our strongest voices raised against the ongoing evil that Israel continues to inflict upon the Palestinian people. His voice,his written word, and his music are reaching more and more people, and more and more people are accepting and understanding the truth.
That, obviously, has you very scared, and you have every reason to be. People are no longer fooled by the appearance of rationality, dubious concern for the Palestinian people, and the not so hidden threats behind the first glance niceties. People are no longer willing to be dictated to by groups and organizations who have their own self-serving agendas.
The SPSC membership will not, I am willing to wager, allow you to intimidate them. They have too much integrity for that. Gilad Atzmon is not going to be deterred by your smear campaign against him. His multitude of friends and fans will make sure of that.
So all you're doing, really, is showing yourselves as being mighty narrow minded in the eyes of a watchful world. That's not a good impression to leave with the reading public, but it's a commonplace one that we've seen again and again and again. Not nice. Not nice at all.
JAZZ, RACISM AND RESISTANCE
A night of live music and spoken word with
GILAD ATZMON
GEORGE GALLOWAY Respect MP
MARTIN SMITH
(author of John Coltrane-jazz, racism and resistance)
Monday 27 November, 7pm
Halaliano Restaurant, Mile End Road
Underneath Milenium Bridge, near Mile End Rd
Tickets £8/£4. Contact 07957 653 469
Or even a crazed racist. I don't think you need to slap labels like this on him to disagree with what he is saying. I like Mark’s ideas that he improvises around a theme without that much regard for accuracy; something that leads him into saying some pretty bloody awful things. I notice that Angie didn’t try to defend the actual stuff that Atzmon said – let’s face it – it’s indefensible and so there is a real case to answer as to whether it’s right to invite him.
2. We invite Zionists, why not invite Atzmon?
This is a bit of a red herring argument. Zionists are invited to such meetings in order to oppose their worldview, Gilad isn’t being invited for this reason. The worry that people have is that the SPSC, which I, as a member of the IPSC have been full of admiration for, is endorsing these views. It’s a legitimate worry; it should be answered.
3. Is this all about Jews being sensitive?
Like some who have mailed here, I wish to christ that Jews weren’t always bringing up this kind of stuff – meaning, I wish that non-Jews would find this objectionable too. I hate to be the one in the room that is knowledgeable about just what is wrong about Eisen or Shamir, or to a lesser extent Atzmon. However when I do mention these things, to date nobody has accused me of being an over-sensitive Jew, instead the substance of my criticism is dealt with. There has been no attempt here to deal with the substance of the JSG's accusations against Atzmon, instead labels have been slapped around.
BTW – there’s one possibly legitimate criticism of the JSG. I don’t think they should have contacted the SPSC in the form of an open letter – unless private contacts were tried first and found useless. Perhaps, if Angie is a member of the SPSC she could clarify this (or perhaps there are some JSGers?)
4. Courtesy courtesy courtesy
Let’s keep the rudeness for our real enemies – if we can’t criticise each other and our groups in a constructive way, we’re done for.
He is there fighting with us night after night,
We publish his papers, we translate them into Arabic
He gives us a good reason to believe that Jews may see the truth sooner or later.
We are tired of righteous Jews like you Mr. Elf
a Jew who tries to tell us what our 'cause' is.
You better accept it once and for all!
The Palestinian Cause is about Palestine and not about you
Just go to your synagogues and leave us alone.
We don't need you and we can clearly see that all you want is splitting our movement.
salam Afif
"your resistance is your business and you can well do without the likes of me or Mark telling you what you should do."
But somehow you keep telling us all what the Pls cause is? why do you do it?
what is your agenda? get it out, tell the truth for a change.
Let me tell you, Atzmon is not a racist, it is all in your sick mind.
His band is almost entirely Jewish (3 out of 4),
His Orient House Ensemble is the most colorful multi ethnic group in the UK and Europe. Don’t you know that racists do not play with Jews, Gypsies and Black? Atzmon does it everynight!
Moreover, as you may notice even the Jewish Socialist refrain now from overtly calling him a racisst or an Anti Semite. I tell you why, they are simply afraid. They know that he can take them to court and win.
There is neither a single racist argument in Atzmon writings nor a hint of antisemitsm. In case you didn’t know, Atzmon is an admirer of Torah Jews. Indeed he ridicules Jewish left activism. He mocks people like yourself. Not on a personal level but on an ideological one).
His critique is nothing but legitimate discourse analysis. He deconstructs the Jewish identity and the emerging Jewish ideological rhetoric.
Even Tony Greenstein, your comrades, a man who bitterly fought Atzmon, admitted eventually that he finds a lot of truth in Atzmon’s writings about the Holocaust.
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20fi...ny%
27semail.htm
But many people have already called Atzmon an anti-semite and as far as i am aware he hasn't taken anybody to court for saying so.
Atzmon says:
“American Jews do try to control the world, by proxy."
Don’t you agree?
Ok read this:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mea...06/
mear01_.html
Atzmon says:
“Israel's behavior throws some light on the
persecution of Jews throughout history."
Don’t you agree?
If Israel’s crimes do not throw light on Jewish History then we must agree that Israel is beyond historical judgment. I know, if you agree with that you must be Judeo socialists.
No wonder why Lenin didn’t like the Bund. He recognized your clannish ideology already then.
Atzmon says:
“Israel has zero respect for anyone including
its next door neighbors. The Israeli behavior should
be realised as the ultimate vulgar biblical barbarism
on the verge of cannibalism.
Don’t you agree?
So please avoid calling yourself Palestinian activists.
Atzmon says:
“” the Jewish State and its Zionist lobbies are trying to revive the
spirit of a global crusade in the name of a bizarre
religious war.
Don’t you agree?
So please let us know what you don’t agree with.
Atzmon says:
“It is about time to … say it all loudly... We have to
admit that Israel is the ultimate evil rather than
Nazi Germany”.
And indeed, Israel is the ultimate evil. Israel is beyond comparison. While Nazis Germany was a tyranny, Israel is a democracy that choose killing and killing and more killing.
Let me assure you. Atzmon is the one who says it all. He is doing it night after night in sold out venues. Atzmon is brave enough to publish his thoughts. His papers and books are translated into 22 languages. Ask yourself why. He is there fighting in the street while you engage in your favorite Jewish cyber activity (Judeo Smear)..
It is rather clear that the Palestinian solidarity movement would have spit you out long time ago but how to say it, there is nothing to spit out. You are not existent. You are a bunch of crypto Zionist cyber activists. You engage in trying to censor the free Palestinian discourse, You are anti democrats by nature. No wonder why your Jewish State behave the way it behaves.
Afif
Also, yocheved and Angie suppport Atzmon, though without trying to defend his statements. Why not? Is there anything that you find there that's not to support, or do you fully agree with Afif? Jews should go back to the synagogue? Do you think that the SPSC is helped in its campaign by associating with these views?
I do accept that a lot of Israeli peace groups and pro-Israeli peace groups do try to become gatekeepers of Palestinian resistance. This is why I think it's important to have this conversation (nicer if it were civil). But, if you reply, try to deal with the substance of this query, and my earlier one. Assume I'm writing as an equal - another individual trying to forward Palestinian liberation, not as an evil Other trying to place a veto on Palestinian activities for nefarious and hidden Jewish reasons.
Thanks
thanks
Atzmon is a racist and SPSC should know better than to associate with him
But then again, I could be in on the act of creating this straw-man as a provacteur...
Since yesterday I did some search. The first thing I can tell is that Gilad Atzmon does not appear to me the racist outcast portrayed in the letter. I think it will be good to have some debate on what he says and writes.
My experience also of trying to reach to Jewish bloggers who are anti-zionists teached me that most Jewish dissent against zionism is organised around protecting Jews rather than facing up to the reality of the Other, the Palestinians. And there are many levels in this protection. It seems to me that Atzmon is not preoccupied by protecting Jews from criticism and this is the main reproach that is being voiced against him.
Wrong on both counts.
First of all it is not "my organization" as I am not a member of the SPSC. If I lived in Scotland, however, I would be. This is a first class group which, I'm delighted to sayl gets things done. Of course, you would have a problem with that.
Second of all, Gilad Atzmon is hardly a (gasp!) "crazed racist". If it's racists you're looking for, you will find them in the Israeli government where the likes of Lieberman has taken racism to an art form, and, lest you forget, how about the racist marriage laws and racist Jews only roads?
Gilad Atzmon supports the Palestinian people. He supports their inherent right to freedom, justice, peace, together with human, social, civil, and economic rights. He supports what they, themselves want, not what others think they want. He supports their right to live protected from the ongoing death and destruction brought about by the terrorist state of Israel.
I share those views.
And if you cared a damn about the Palestinian people and their right to survive, to exist, if you will, you would support Gilad Atzmon's valiant and heroic efforts to end israeli terrorism against the indigenous people of Palestine.
And the reason you're not doing this is?
An anti-semite is someone who makes statements or performs acts that indicate that a) there is an entity called 'The Jews' and b) this entity has been and/or still is having a malign or evil influence on the world.
Simple question: are there things in Atzmon's writings or speeches that indicates that he believes a) and b)?
All the other stuff that people are talking about here about how shitty most Jewish anti-zionists are, how Jews keep trying to tell the Palestinians what to do, how brilliant Atzmon is in helping Palestinians and/or musicians are all interesting questions but have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the question of whether Atzmon is an anti-semite.
Yocheved, thank you for telling me that I have a sick mind. I'm not sure what you mean by that. You also tell me that I tell the Palestinians what to do. I have never told one or any Palestinians what to do and have just turned down the request that I compere an afternoon of poetry, music and entertainment for Palestinians (in Camden, London) precisely because, as I said, I don't think it's right that a Jew should do this, as it would look and feel like a Jew was hijacking something Palestinian. Instead, I said, I would be happy to read some of my own poetry and some Palestinian poetry as part of the afternoon. If this is the action of a sick mind, do tell me.
Identifying Israel in terms of it being a manifestation of Jewish identity isn’t only vaguely racist, it’s also silly – it fails to see it for what it is – a colonial settler state, like other colonial settler states. Instead, Atzmon reinforces the Zionist logic that Israel is somehow exceptional, that Jews are unique - though in his version uniquely bad. And so the argument comes back to ‘the Jews’ and what they do or say.
As for individual Jews being upset by Atzmon – I think that maybe people shouldn’t get too het up – but try this test. How would you as an English person (I know I’m making assumptions here) respond if I made similar accusations against you for all the horrors ‘you’ perpetrated in my country, Ireland, and indeed elsewhere in the world – substituting ‘Brit’ for ‘Jew’? Perhaps you would comment that you don’t support imperialism. And how then would you feel then if I used your comment to accuse you of ‘really’ supporting English racial superiority through the back door? This seems to be the tenor of some of the comments here (not yours, btw) and some of Atzmon’s.
For an intelligent critique of Atzmon – and he certainly isn’t an outcast – try Seth Farber’s ‘The New Pro-Palestinian Jews: Beyond Tikkun and Atzmon’ Media Monitors Network February 02, 2006 http://world.mediamonitors.net/c...view/full/
26272
No, I didn't. But I do I know that many male sexists marry women and that most try to ensure that they sleep with a woman on as many nights as they can.
The cast of companions and collegues that you keep might be a proxy measure of your levels of prejudice, but it is certainly a flawed measure.
a)there is an entity called 'The Jews' and b) this entity has been and/or still is having a malign or evil influence on the world.
Whether we accept this bizarre definition. Atzmon actually doesn’t argue neither ‘a’ nor ‘b’. Atzmon’s argument is far more developed. Atzmon argues that Jewishness is a complicated identity that must be seen as a network operative system with no centre or even operative code. It is a network in which left and right serve a general abstract cause. For instance you (the humanist self loving poet) and even Atzmon himself (the proud self hating Jew) prove that Jews are how to say it, liberal beings and peace loving people.
While Atzmon tries to challenge the situation, you prefer to share with us examples of your self loving apparatus (Refusing the Camden PSC or whatever it was).
Anyhow, your misinterpretation of Atzmon is probably a direct result of misreading of misquotes that were distributed by some of your Jewish socialist friends at the time. The famous quote above referring to American Jewry controlling the world should be read in full. In fact it clearly refers to Zionist. Here is the original:
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20fi...les/
onanti.html
Anyhow, rather than using an old Sheransky’s definition of Anti Semitism I will share with you an alternative insight into the subject of anti-Semitism:
“While in the old days an 'anti-Semite' was someone who hates Jews, nowadays it is the other way around: an anti-Semite is someone the Jews hate.”
This fits far better into your modern Jewish world order. You just hate because you have to hate. You tell me who you hate and I tell you who you are....
I'm doing the Palestinian gig because I was asked to. I chose not to compere it because I didn't want to be accused (nor be a practitioner) of cultural imperialism. So instead I get accused (like Malvolio) of self-love! Magic.
To tell the truth, I'm retiring from this shite. Anyone who wonders if Atzmon hates all Jews (yeah it gets that bizarre) need only spend an hour reading his statements on his website. In meantime I'm going off to look at the network without the operative code. Or was it the operative code without the network? I had no idea it takes a degree in Critical Theory to understand if someone hates Jews or not. Back to the drawing board, Rosen.
And if you cared a damn about the Palestinian people and their right to survive, to exist, if you will, you would support Gilad Atzmon's valiant and heroic efforts to end israeli terrorism against the indigenous people of Palestine.
Mark runs an anti-zionist blog with about a post a day and has done so for two years. You have to be a moron to think he doesn't care a damn. So either you're a moron, or you're dishonestly throwing out false accusations to muddy the waters. You pick.
Your argument, such as it is, is an obvious non sequitor. So obvious, in fact, that the same dichotomy applies. That Gilead Atzmon supports Palestine (or at least claims to, anti-semitism does Palestine no service) does not imply that if Mark supports Palestine he must support Gilead Atzmon. Bin Laden and Tony Blair both claim to support Palestine.
would you invite david irving to speak at a SPSC event, if irving came out in support of Palestinian rights and gave some money?
"Mark runs an anti-zionist blog with about a post a day and has done so for two years"
Can't you see? Mark Elf is a Jewish cyber martyr, respect!!!
If there are any posts that people find unacceptable on this blog please email me your objections as it will be easier for me to monitor by email than going through them all myself.
I don't really want to put the moderator on as it slows discussion.
Normal service will be resumed on Sunday I hope.
Cheers
Yalla, ihkii shwaya bil arabi itha inta falastiini.
That is really something, Mark, that you saw it the same way.
Thanks for the link. The article looks like it may answer some of my questions. I am not British, I am Lebanese, French and I live in Canada. But to elaborate on the analogy you cited in your comment I would say that as a person having crossed many cultural and religious barriers (I am a secular from a Christian lebanese family) I can see that there is a communutarist reflex at work in the reactions here. One recent example that comes to my mind are the recent reactions of Muslims to what they perceived as offenses to their religion (Danish Cartoons and else). While I am very critical of these provocations against Muslims I am also irritated by the fact that not many voices inside the Muslim community rose to condemn Muslim's sometimes exagerated reactions. But at the same time I understand that communautarist reflexes are at work when a community is attacked from the outside, when the community feels a sense of danger.
And so, in my opinion, the case of the Jewish anti-sionist community is paradoxical because to keep the communautarist reflex is to adhere, in some way, to the idea that the community is in danger as it were attacked from the outside, an idea that is the bread and butter of zionists. Here lies the ambiguity of the present negative reactions to Atzmon in the sense that these reactions, despite the fact of being totally legitimate, and I am quite convinced of that after reading them, still carry with them this common point with zionism (which is ironically that of anti-semitism at the same time), the idea that Jews are one homogenous people.
If I were a Jew without a strong adhesion to the community, these critics would not bother me.
I understood that Atzmon is critical of jewishness on the whole and so these negative reactions are actually proving his bias, that something called 'Jewishness' actually exists.
re Mark the cyber martyr - great gag, great sneer, but proving what? I don't know Mark. I met him for about two minutes on a bench outside SOAS once. As far as I can work out, he neither courts or avoids martyrdom. It just doesn't come up on his radar and it's a cheap sneer to say that he does, or that there are others who regard him as one. The worst thing you can say about him is that he's fixated with Engage, L.Grant, Hirsch et al. But we all have our fixations, for fuxxsake, eh, so we should let him have that one.
Sadly, the issue of Atzmon's anti-semitism continues to be muddled with discussions concerning the Palestinians. There is absolutely no reason why this should be so. Jews, Jewishness etc are not defined by the Middle East, Israel and Zionism. Just because Atzmon sees the world through that prism doesn't mean that anyone else has to.
Ana falastini big time falastini min Nablus. What are you doing here, ya ibin el-sharmuta? Shou 3am ta3mil hon ma3 hal yahoud ya khayin!
Check out Atzmon's 3rd Category paper...
it is all there.
Salam
"Seemingly, the 3rd category Jewish Marxists do operate as a Zionist fig leaf."
"it is reasonable to deduce that all Jewish left activity is in practice not more than a form of left Zionism"
"Jewish secularity is a form of ethnicity based merely on some exclusive tendencies and a vague collective memory of some ritual heritage."
''If every insult levelled at a group is proved to have some validity simply because members of the group say 'We are insulted', then racism wouldn't exist would it?''
I did not intend to say that reactions to Atzmon prove the validity of his insults. If you read again you realise that I was just taking into consideration the fact that both Atzmon and its critics consider Jews as a whole, one homogenous community and that this is common to zionism and anti-semitism at the same time.
Moreover, I am not denying the existence of racism targeting groups and not denying the right to these groups to react as a group against racism. All I am saying is the fact that the group reacts as a group proves actually that the inability of individuals to dissociate themselves from the group proves that they sense a danger because no fool stands alone in the face of danger. This is a normal reaction when the group is attacked from the outside. In this case, the attack is from the inside and to perceive it as an attack from the outside is to be able to imagine and sustain only a certain level of internal criticism beyond which any criticism is attributed immediately to the 'ennemy', the outside, in this case anti-semitism. In other words, the community sets its own rules and levels for acceptable internal criticism as if the prejudices carried so long against the community from the outside were actually internalised by all the individuals in the community as a rallying and unifying factor that crosses the boundaries of all internal dissents.
I can perfectly understand this but I think it is important to acknowledge it.
You are just slightly too clever for a bunch of Jewish socialist.
They are lost case, thanks God, they are marginal on the verge of pathetic.
And I would further state that the owner of this blog would have much more credibility in my eyes had he not permitted this "open letter" to the SPSC to appear on his site. By doing so he has shown a complete lack of impartiality, and a willingness to assist unwarranted interference in the activities of an organization. And that does cause me concern.
And I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. If you wish to bring David Irving into the picture, then I suggest you start your own blog and present us with a rational discourse respecting him. This is the oldest trick whenever criticism is levelled at those who oppose Israel and its supporters. Normally Hitler is brought into the mix. Today it's David Irving. I suppose next it will be Ernst Zundel? I'm not playing that little game.
I have - no surprise here - read everything that has been posted on Gilad's web site. I've read his books. I've listened to his music.
In fact, being the discerning progressive journalist that I am, I interviewed Artie Fishel (and it was SO fun; perhaps you've read it??).
If I, for a moment, believed Gilad Atzmon to be any of the things you (plural) accuse him of, I'd not be hanging around my in box waiting for his next article. I believe in him. I share his views. And I will defend him as long as is necessary or longer.
So, dear people, you're forewarned. Whenever Gilad Atzmon is criticized, slandered, smeared, verbally attacked, I'll be right here, there, or wherever supporting him. It's as simple as that.
Here it is:
“There are no English, French, German or American Jews, but only Jews living in England, France, Germany or America.” Weizmann, First Zionist Congress 1897
"We have done it in the name of the Jewish people" Sharon, Following the Battle of April 2002.
In between you have a century Zionist ideological collectivism grounded on a perception of homogenous identity.
This is problematic however, as those who have issues with Atzmon – Isakovsky, myself, Mark too, don’t claim to speak ‘as a Jew’. Far from it; we are demanding to speak from a universalistic vantage point, rather than a specifically Jewish one. I don’t think that this is a cunning trap; that we are only pretending to be universalistic while secretly harbouring particularistic hatred. The language used is not that our particular thin skins have been pierced, but that Atzmon goes against normative liberal values (It’s another argument whether these values should be normative etc…).
What I’ve found disturbing about this comment thread is the fact that our demand to speak out ‘not as Jews, but as people’ has been consistently denied by those who support Atzmon – people like Angie, Afif, etc have refused to entertain the substantive points made – and instead told 'the Jews' basically to ‘go back into your synagogues’.
Such a reaction is revealing. I’ve been trying to work out why some English Jews who base their criticism on Israel on enlightenment values such as human rights etc., feel the need to then form special Jewish groups such as JSG (It’s different for those who base their criticism on particularist so-called Jewish values.). Perhaps they have a very legitimate reason, in that in the wider Palestinian Solidarity Movement, there are those who place any Jewish comrades on continual probation, and police their remarks for traces of ‘Jewishness’. When I say ‘perhaps’, I really don’t know – this thankfully isn’t the situation in Ireland, where I’m not under any pressure to regard my Jewishness as particularly important.
It all brings to mind Sartre’s comment that the Antisemite creates the Jew - both the image of the Jew and the Jew’s own sense of himself as separate from non-Jews. I think Jews would be less concerned about Atzmon if more non-Jews were. Just as many Muslims said that what they found particularly hateful about the cartoons controversy was that their claim to speak out from the vantage point of anti-racism was denied, and that many non-Muslims had no problems with these racist cartoons. In the end there is a danger in finding the roots of racialisation within the racialised group – rather than in wider society which racialises them.
Btw – though the Farber article is good, I think in the end he falls into the communitarian trap too. As you point out, it’s just so bloody easy to do.
David
Alex Stein
As the above quotes indicate, at one time, they probably did.
That was before they discovered the existence of "self-haters" and the uses that concept could be put to.
Do not put words in my mouth. It's way impolite. If I want to talk about Jews and where they should, or should not, go, I shall do it myself. I did not mention the word Jew or Jews or any derivative thereof. Nor did I mention synagogue(s), either back to or away from.
If, and when, I ever do, then you can comment on what I say. You can't do that now, sir.
Angie Tibbs
Ms. Tibbs, I am reluctantly obligated to inform you that Artie Fishel is not an actual person, rather a persona created by Atzmon. Or have you seen the two of them together?
are you a fan of Israel Shamir too?
Israel Shamir (aka Jöran Jermas aka Adam Ermash) is one of your admirers, why not invite him along as well?
I wonder, now that some of the froth has settled, is there anyone of Atzmon's surrogates here who would like to tell us if Atzmon thinks that a genocide of the Jews took place between 1933-1945? Is the Protocols of Zion a valid document? Are US Jews trying to run the world? Is Israel a worse country than Nazi Germany? Is 'the Jew' a real entity and what is this Jew's 'real' character? Angie, get ready to defend, defend, defend...
You are SO funny.
And you've wasted precious moments of your time posting this little attempt to -- what? Embarrass me? Won't work, sir.
I am well aware of who/what Artie Fishel is and isn't. As the world's first artificial zio, Artie can be as real as I, or anyone else, wishes him to be. Or not.
Thanks for your lenghty answer. I think you raised a good point, with which I agree, in the fact that a community can feel more secure if there are voices outside defending it against racism, prejudices and threats. I think however that the Jewish community is well protected both from the inside and from the outside against racism, stigma and prejudice. That does not mean that one should not be vigilant but my point is that not only the past of the Jewsih community is defining more than the present but that the present, which is harsh on another community, the Palestinians, is felt as an existential threat by the Jewish community as a whole (I am not talking here about zionists where the threat felt by them has to do with military, demographic and other practical aspects related to the Israeli state). I agree with those of you who feel the conflict as an existential threat to the Jewish community as long as there is no just solution to the Palestinian question. I understand therefore the reactions to Atzmon.
But David don't you think that what Atzmon is portraying today of the Jewish community is actually a warning of what the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will do to the image of Jews in the public opinion some day and will come to haunt people like you who are preoccupied by peace and justice ?
I think if passions are so high in the community it is because those who want to guard the values of the community are actually aware that if there is no just peace between Israel and the Palestinians very quickly, because things have reached a non returning point, there will be irreversible negative consequences for the Jewish community as a whole and that Atzmon is a harsh warning of what will come ?
I will stop my comments here.
I thank you very much for this frank, polite and non malicious exchange. I learned a lot and I hope we can continue this discussion. My thanks also to Mark who answered some of my previous questions on the letter.
I am truly writing here from the point of view of a friend of the Jewish people and from the point of view of someone who is preoccupied by a lasting peace in the ME.
What part of that were you unable to read?
"I wonder, now that some of the froth has settled, is there anyone of Atzmon's surrogates here who would like to tell us if Atzmon thinks that a genocide of the Jews took place between 1933-1945? "
Though you like to think he is, Atzmon is not a holocaust denier, he has never denied the holocaust. He is interested in the holocaust denial of the pls people. You are welcome to read his Re-Arranging the 20th century.
“Is the Protocols of Zion a valid document?”
once again you miss the point. Atzmon argues that after the neocons and the war in Iraq, the question whether the protocols are valid is irrelevant. Zionists dominate American politics. Whether you agree with Atzmon or not is mot the issue. This very view is now academically explored.
“Are US Jews trying to run the world?”
You miss again. In the paper ‘On Anti semitism’ Atzmon speaks about American Zionists rather than Jews.
“Is Israel a worse country than Nazi Germany?”
Indeed here you are correct, Atzmon argues that some aspects of Israel military tactics used by Israel are far worse than the Nazi ones. Read his paper and debate him. He doesn’t refer to mass killing if this is where you are aiming.
Is 'the Jew' a real entity and what is this Jew's 'real' character?
This is obviously your creative imagination that comes into play here, the issue of the Jew being an entity or not may be an interesting issue but it has nothing to do with Atzmon and his writings.
You see, this is why you fail with Atzmon, thanks to you, people read him like Sophia and others. Next they join him and leave you behind.
I"sakovsky, myself, Mark too, don’t claim to speak ‘as a Jew’. Far from it; we are demanding to speak from a universalistic vantage point, rather than a specifically Jewish one."
Ok then, so why do you fail to communicate with universal humanists out of your Kosher blog? Why they refuse to buy your smear. Simple, you do not know how to communicate universal thoughts. How is it that you don’t know? Simple, you are locked within a Judeo centric discourse that is not univesral. In other words, you don’t even know that which you don’t know. You are operating in the dark. This is very sad David. But I think that you yourself start to see it.
Someone posted today a message about Atzmon on Jpuke, your Kosher sister site; “Re: [JustPeaceUK] open letter to scottish palestine solidarity campaign
wrote: Good luck with
that but something tells me you are not going to have much success since ever other campaign against atzmon has ended with you being undercover Zionists."
And this is what it is all about. You can never win. You operate as the left shield for the Zionist ideology. You may not mean it but this is what you do and this is how it looks. Atzmon exposes you, he is just slightly ahead of you. You want to get on the case you better learn from him. Debate him.
Dave you continue:
“Atzmon goes against normative liberal values”
For sure he does. Atzmon thinks ethically rather than normatively. Atzmon is against normative thinking.
This is why Atzmon supports the right of return while you are still struggling to find an authentic voice.
In short, at your current state you have very little to contribute to the Palestinian discourse. But this can change.
Dave you say
“What I’ve found disturbing about this comment thread is the fact that our demand to speak out ‘not as Jews, but as people’ has been consistently denied by those who support Atzmon”
What do you mean by ‘not as jews’. You are operating in a kosher blog. One of you already called to ban Afif, Mr Elf the lefty joker, came out for a second and called us racists and Zionists who ‘crawl out of the wood’.
Let me assure you, Elf like many other here lack the minimal manners. This is indeed common in Kosher blogs. In fact you Dave are exceptional here. Let me tell you, Arab culture is all about hospitality. You want to join the Palestinians, learn Arab manners first. I am in your blog, make me feel at home even if you don’t like me. Just learn to respect the other.
Anyhow, if you still insist to speak as an ordinary human being, just leave this cyber ghetto behind and join a universal solidarity campaign, visit sites like Information Clearing House, Ummkhalil, Peacepalestine and many others. There you will be treated as a human being. See yourself invited.
The whole row between Atzmon and Jews against Zionism began with Atzmon attacking Tony Greenstein, Roland Rance and Deborah Maccoby for condemning the antisemitism of Israel Shamir.
I'll dig up the link when I can be bothered.
Frankly I didn't want to get into this because I think Atzmon is to antisemitism what David Hirsh is to zionism: a lying buffoon. But I'll dig up the link and then you'll see.
Check it out. Atzmon has complained that Jews against zionism is a "powerful lobby" harrassing him and yet from the above article it is clear that Atzmon went out of his way to denounce various Jews because of their opposition to Israel Shamir.
In common with most racists, Atzmon is a lying piece of shit. He and the zionists deserve each other but the anti-zionist movement doesn't deserve him. He is about as useful to the campaign against zionism as his zionist counterpart, David Hirsh.
Yocheved - what exactly does it mean to say that this blog is "Kosher"?
Also, you say "You want to join the Palestinians, learn Arab manners first."
That would be an appropriate comment if Mark was claiming to be a Palestinian. But he's not, he's only claiming to support them. And it would obviously be a bad idea to disqualify non-Arabs, or people who are ignorant of Arabic culture, from supporting Palestine. Isn't the point of talking about the right of self-determination and the right of return that these are supposed to be universal values?
Angie - I might argue with you if you would stick to a point. You first claimed that Mark had no right to criticize the internal affairs of an organization he didn't belong to. Isakofsky pointed out that this was "complete bolloks". You then dropped the claim, and switched to arguing that Atzmon wasn't a racist, and in fact defending him was essential to defending Palestine. I said this was moronic. Now you're back to the first, without actually answering any arguments.
All - I am, by the way, not Jewish, so my disgust with antisemitism in both its anti-Jewish and its Zionist forms really can't be explained as a product of "communitarianism" or a sinister Jewish agenda.
And I highly recommend Joseph Massad's article for people who like the Mearsheimer-Walt paper:
http://www.counterpunch.org/
mass...ad03252006.html
Sit down, Gilad. Make yourself welcome. And when you said 'Jewish people', you were making a subtle distinction here between...what precisely?
Dear Gilad
I'm sorry that once again you are being subjected to this nonsense but I am delighted that the Jewish Socialist Group is now publicly, and as a group, showing itself for what it is.
As far as I can see, the JSG exists for no purpose other than to maintain Jewish or Zionist power and control over the discourse, both about Zionism and Israel in particular, and about 'progressive' thinking in general. They are, truly, the very best examples of Lenin's "Zionists with sea-sickness".
They are indeed, as you say, 'racially orientated socialists'. If a non-Jew wished to join the JSG they would be welcomed, as would two or even three. But if fifty non-Jews wished to join, would not the JSG then have a 'demographic problem'?
The JSG and their ilk has dominated the JPUK list for many years and, in my view, it is this which has turned JPUK from being a collection of perfectly likeable and well-meaning Jewish activists into the cold, intolerant and hysterical entity it has become.
On a personal note, JSG individuals have been busier than any other people trying (they have not succeeded) to rubbish me and my work. They have attempted this since the year 2000 when I first began work with DYR in the UK - long before I ever consciously or openly began reflecting on the nature of Jewish identity. The deeply racist (and very stupid) Charlie Pottins in particular took initial exception to my focusing on the crimes of 1948 rather than the comfortable and reassuring "End the Occupation" theme favoured by him and his like. The rest of the pack (there's always safety in numbers for these people) joined in when I dared to speculate that anti-Semitism might have some causes other than simply pathological hatred on the part of non-Jews.
Finally regarding the inclusion in their letter of the now standard and ubiquitous reference to me, Ernst Zundel and Holocaust revisionism (I do hope you will always try to include references to this in your responses to these pieces), Ernst Zundel, Ingrid Rimland and the overwhelming majority of the revisionist community have more integrity and truth in their little fingernails than the entire membership of the JSG have in their entire bodies.
I hope your responses to and about these people will be circulated as widely as possible, and particularly to all branches and members of the PSC
Paul
There's a weird thing going on here. People attack each other for what their organisations/assocations do, without ever dealing with actual statements which people have made vis a vis anti-semitism, 'the Jews' etc. I suspect people are really much more interested in turf wars than they are in eliminating shitty ideas.
Alex Stein, that's a lie. All you have to do is look at my article in SW on anti-semitism in which I made it quite clear that the word 'zionism' can be used as code for the word 'jew' when people start talking about 'zionists' controlling the world. Perhaps it's best to make sure that you can get your mind and your mouth to co-operate.
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=c...uk&ct=clnk&
cd=4
"What is curious here is that, in my experience, if people both hate Jews and the state of Israel then they say so. One of the classic forms of antisemitism is to say that “the Jews” are in a “conspiracy” to take over the world, or that they are running the world.
Sometimes, they may say there’s a “Zionist” conspiracy to run the world - but that’s hardly a cunning disguise for a hatred of Jews."
Here's an apology slip for you:
I, Alex Stein, apologise to isakofsky/Michael Rosen for suggesting that it would be OK to say that we should take it seriously that zionists are trying to control the world....
SIGNATURE: .......
This is a guy who believes that Trotsky was a Jewish supremacist. He is a guy who Atzmon has only slight differences with and of course Atzmon is a guy who the SWP has no problem with.
I'm going to have to switch the moderator on for the day because I'm doing a lot of running around.
Sorry about that.
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/...04/720/
op63.htm
"While holocaust denial in the West is indeed one of the strongest manifestations of anti-Semitism, most Arabs who deny the holocaust deny it for political not racist reasons. This point is even conceded by the anti-Arab and anti-Muslim Orientalist Bernard Lewis. Their denial is based on the false Zionist claim that the holocaust justifies Zionist colonialism. The Zionist claim is as follows: Since Jews were the victims of the holocaust, then they have the right to colonise Palestine and establish a Jewish colonial-settler state there. Those Arabs who deny the holocaust accept the Zionist logic as correct. Since these deniers reject the right of Zionists to colonise Palestine, the only argument left to them is to deny that the holocaust ever took place, which, to their thinking, robs Zionism of its allegedly "moral" argument. But the fact that Jews were massacred does not give Zionists the right to steal someone else's homeland and to massacre the Palestinian people. The oppression of a people does not endow it with rights to oppress others. If those Arab deniers refuse to accept the criminal Zionist logic that justifies the murder and oppression of the Palestinians by appealing to the holocaust, then these deniers would no longer need to make such spurious arguments. All those in the Arab world who deny the Jewish holocaust are in my opinion Zionists."
Zundel’s most famous work was The Hitler We Loved and Why.
Only the most twisted or mad like Eisen would ever have a good word for Zundel.
Nizkor has exposed this neo-Nazi many times, http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/peopl...z/zundel-ernst/
"so if I should write that the Jews have every right to self-determination, but not if it at the expense of others (as is the case with Israel), it would seem that now I, a Jew who is utterly opposed to antisemitism, am guilty of antisemitism."
If I get you are right, you are saying that, in theory, there might not be anything wrong with a Jewish state (at least if it doesn't have laws which discriminate on the basis of ethnicity), but the only way of doing this was at the expense of others (the Palestinians). Do you know if this idea is expanded upon (by you or anyone else) elsewhere?
Now that's Jazz, baby!
This is a persistent annoyance, and judging from this comments thread it seems that English Jews are subjected to this kind of nonsense quite a lot. Note the assumptions, which swing between insulting and patronising – that because one is in a group like JSG or a blog like JSF one can’t be also involved in wider Palestinian Solidarity activism. This assumption is, to my understanding, completely false. And so the idea that Jews needs to be invited to leave their ghetto community by self-appointed gatekeepers of the ‘outside world’ is no more than an invitation to simultaneously deny and foreground an identity which in any case has been draped on them by these gatekeepers. Small wonder that this kind of bigoted patronisation, disguised as an invitation to assimilate, is rejected.
One thing I agree with, that with further barbarism from Israel, openly supported by diaspora Jews saying they are acting ‘as Jews’, Jewish people will experience more of this type of Atzmon nonsense. It’s a pity how Atzmon and his ilk flatter Zionists by taking them at their own words, but secondary to the main issue – the barbarism of Israel. And so, like yourself, I’ll end my comments.
These people are obviously disrupting unity and focusing attention away from zionist crimes against Palestinians.
"Ernst Zundel, Ingrid Rimland and the overwhelming majority of the revisionist community"
Zündel is the founder of Samisdat Publishers which issued such pamphlets as The Hitler We Loved and Why and Did Six Million Really Die? and a distributor of Nazi and neo-Nazi posters, audiotapes, and memorabilia
Zundel's wife Ingrid Rimland maintains his website while he is in prison and addresses audiences of holocaust deniers and far-right organisations about her husband's situation.
Does Atzmon still have "slight differences" with Eisen - and if so what are they?
Saddam Hussein was also a staunch supporter of the Palestinians. As far as I'm aware, no-one in the Palestinian Solidarity movement has ever invited him to speak at a meeting, and for good reason too.
Is Galloway really speaking on the same platform as this guy? If so, could you please have a word with him about it Mr Rosen? I'm sure you'd have more influence than anyone else here.
The people on the door were refusing entry even to SWP members who were seen talking to me and one of the people on the door (John McClaughlin) told an SWP member that I was a known member of the zionist AWL in spite of the fact she knew me. The SWP blotted its copy book over Atzmon and continues to do so. The present controversy wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for the SWP giving credibility to this racist buffoon, Atzmon.
Incidentally, a friend of mine told me that the comments by "Yocheved" are actually by Atzmon. I have written to ask him and he hasn't replied. I think the comment by "Afif" is also by the same person.
Since I wrote to Atzmon earlier today both "Yocheved" and "Afif" have stopped posting comments.
I think they would all claim to be fervent supporters of the Palestinians. On what grounds would GG and Martin Smith bar them that they wouldn't also apply to the Atzmon/Yocheved/Afif/Shmendrik entity
He doesn't condemn the Kurdish Workers Party, the Muslim Public Affairs Committee or any other identity (race? honestly!) based interest group.
He is a liar, a racist and a buffoon.
Now please stop making me repeat myself.
It was in 2004 that we noticed there was something strange about one particular Palestinian 'defender', named Rowan Berkeley, who was especially noticeable in a variety of yahoo forums as he stalked out, rather 'flushed out' and ‘baited’ Jews and Israelis that he found on yahoo forums discussing Jewish Mysticism and notably, a site discussing Moses and other ancient Jewish history. We had always been suspicious of him ever since his appearance, since he tried to steer esoteric conversation at every opportunity to Israel-Palestine and US politics, quoting conspiracy theory, white-pride sites, and third-international positionists, and regurgitating old libels under the guise of pro-Palestinianism.
I’m pleased to say we saw though him quickly, and some of our ‘mystics’ wiped the floor with him, scholarly-wise, but our concern at his support for what looks like real anti-Semitism, and the danger this type of Palestinian advocacy causes to the pro-Palestinian movement has not diminished. Nor has he reduced our concern that Israelis and Jews – Zionist and non-Zionist alike, were blanket-condemned. It concerned us to see individual Jews who were born in Israel being blamed for their Govt and Military’s actions, when we knew they were socially-proofed and media-cowed on a daily basis, kept in fear of their lives, used as human shields just as much as Palestinians were by their leaders and politicians , militias and freedom fighters.
One of us traced him across pro-Palestinian political sites, where he denounced Jews, and then Israel. On other sites, where pulled up for his antisemitism, he would push conspiracy myths that the US was founded on 'Jewish' terms – all classic crypto-nazi terminology. It concerned us that he peppered Israeli, Palestinian and other news sites and blogs with his particular skewed viewpoint. We seriously thought he was a disinfo agent at one point.
Working backwards, our researcher stalked his trail through the internet, we noticed he already worked his way through a variety of sub-political groups on the left and traditional anarchist and libertarian spheres operating in the UK from the early 2002 onward. This pseudo-intellectual promoted Evola, Bakunin and Proudon with anarchists, and appeared to tailor his sources to suit his audience. I must point out that National-Anarchism little to do with Anarchism – it’s an “plumer de la voillaille” from an ex-National Front member and peer of Nick Griffin and Rowan Berkeley can be found today, posting there. Across the web, he has linked to crypto-nazi white pride sites – all while trying to maintain an appearance of pro-Palestinianism, and denouncing ‘the left’ (similar to AWL).
When we fought him, he turned nasty, incredibly nasty. When we challenged his appearance of pro-Palestinianism, he sided with another antisemite named 'TheFetch' who was a plague on underground sites and openly attacked Jews, Judaism regardless of whether they were Zionist or not. For a time, the pair formed a double act across several forums, supporting each other, promoting an antisemitic myth of Jewish world domination that wouldn't look out of place in protocols.
Then, on our Akhnaten forum, where we used to discuss the centuries of self-rule in Tel el Da’ba (Goshen) and all things ‘Egyptian’, Rowan Berkeley announced that he would be attending Atzmon’s talk at Bookmarks.
After this event, a text by Rowan Berkeley appeared on Atzmon's site, with Atzmon praising him for his perspective, and our estimation of Atzmon changed from that of “misguided angry-ex-Israeli pro-Palestinian” to “purposeful underminer of Palestinian rights under the guise of lending support to the Palestinian Solidarity movement”.
We believe Atzmon, and those he espouses – Shamir, Berkeley, and so forth, have anti-Semitic opinions and association with him has contributed ‘ballast’ and ‘ammunition’ to be used by Zionist advocacy against the Palestinian Cause.
If the Scottish PSC were to cancel Atzmon’s appearance, or challenge in public, his unsavoury attitudes to Jews and penchant for promoting the works of conspiracy theorists, ex-National Front supporters, and fakers such as Israel Shamir, this would invigorate the Palestinian Solidarity Movement throughout the UK, and remove what we believe to be a purposeful trap. By refusing to do so, we UK Activists and Rudi Rocker-loving Anarchists, who strive for peaceful co-existence, call their support into question.
Maybe, in some instances, Muslim support groups have been deliberately shmoozed by neo-fascists espousing pro=Palestinianism at the same time as conspiracy laden anti-semitism - whatever it is, the Zionistas have given UK students a hard time about inviting Atzmon, especially the Engageniks.
love
Luther
But this isn't simple, Michael. There are mny states that deprive people of their liberty with greater or lesser degrees of justification, many of them in the Middle east. And yet we do not hear calls for those countries to be eradicated. I am curious, how long does a people have to have lived in an area before their state is legitimate? And how do we determine the continuity? By DNA sampling? Will Israel have a right to exists in 100 years. Or two hundred. Or a thousand Where is the line drawn?
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