I didn't like the idea that celebrating the ethnic cleansing of Palestine was understandable because of the holocaust.

Hold it, pal! I thought the Holacaust made us Jews all empathetic an' shit, cause they treated us so bad, and they didn't like us.
But now I find out the Holacaust can be used as an excuse!

Ach, I have so much to find out about my own religion.
mooser42001 | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 4:41 am | #

For an impartial source on this sort of thing, try the Holocaust Industry by a chap called Norman Finkelstein.
Mark Elf (aka levi9909) | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 4:43 pm | #

mark:

i hope you were using "impartial" tongue-in-cheek because finkelstein is far from impartial. he is very partial -- to spelling out the truth, to justice for all the people involved in the I/P conflict, etc.
uh..clem | 05.03.08 - 5:56 pm | #

I recently watched a "Secrets of The Dead" episode about the two Slovak Jews who escaped from Auschwitz to warn the Hungarian Jews about what was in store for them there. One of them remained in Czechoslovakia for the rest of his life, while the other made Aliyah to. . . British Columbia. Neither one went to Israel.
Montag | 05.03.08 - 6:42 pm | #

Uh..clem - I was indeed being "tongue-in-cheek".

Montag - was one of them Vrba?
Mark Elf (aka levi9909) | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 9:43 pm | #

Yeah, Vrba went to British Columbia and died in 2006. The program showed that the Slovak Jewish Community that the two men stayed with at first refused to believe their story. It was thanks to Vrba's encyclopedic memory for names that could be found in the deportation lists that they were convinced.

It was a pretty good program that went into the Kastnar business as well. Vrba hoped that the report he dictated and was transmitted would warn the Hungarian Jews not to get on the trains. But Kastnar kept the report hidden while he negotiated with Eichmann, which meant that the deportations continued on schedule.
Montag | 05.03.08 - 10:31 pm | #

I've actually seen Vrba being interviewed in a programme on the UK's History Channel. It was about 1975, in colour, he looked a bit of a hippy. I gather that the zionist movement and later the Israelis treated him very badly. I think there were fears that public knowledge of the holocaust might lead to a rescue attempt by western powers which would undermine zionism. Google around the words Vrba and "Auschwitz Protocol".

Apparently he either kept or adopted the name Vrba to make it unpronounceable to westerners or English speakers. It may have been something to do with making people more tolerant of diversity.

Fascinating guy.
Mark Elf (aka levi9909) | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 10:49 pm | #

I don't see what's wrong with the bit of the letter that says it is understandble that some Jews celebrate Israel's birthday. It is not saying we should and it is not saying it is right, but it is merely trying to understand where other Jews are coming from. What is wrong with being a little concilliatory and showing a bit of empathy? At least they are more likely to read the rest after that line.

By the way, I got many of the signatories for that letter, and all but 4 of the printed names. If I hadn't lost my computer data and I had access to JfJfP's and IJV's data base, maybe several hundred would have signed it!

(I do have to blow my own trumpet to emphasise how stupid the JfJfP Executive were to 'discipline' me. They no longer have a recruitment officer and are not growing much in number, while I recruit for other initiatives).
Deborah Fink | 05.04.08 - 1:06 am | #

I just don't think it's the holocaust that has made mainstream Jewish communities so chauvinistic. I think Israel's successes together with western support had encouraged many Jews (and others) to support Israel. And the holocaust has been allowed to be used as an excuse for what would be called blind sectarian bigotry in any other community.

Re you and JfJfP, have you noticed all these d words that make for antisemitic opposition to Israel? Demonisation, de-legitimisation, double standards and Deborah. I think you did demonisation and your name's Deborah. That's 2 ds so you're definitely antisemitic.
Mark Elf (aka levi9909) | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 8:58 am | #

And there was me thinking that nakba was an unsweetened Palestinian nibble.
Mr Kay | 05.04.08 - 10:52 am | #

as in nakba shnack bar?
Mark Elf (aka levi9909) | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 11:13 am | #

I’m surprised you weren’t on that list of signatories little Elfie or are you just too inconsequential?
koppers | 05.04.08 - 6:05 pm | #

I was asked to sign it but I didn't agree with the idea of Jews celebrating ethnic cleansing, racist laws and relentless aggression being "understandable" on account of the holocaust. I think a rejection of segregationist states, i.e. the stance of the signatories and me, is far more understandable.
Mark Elf (aka levi9909) | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 6:21 pm | #

Deborah, your experience reminds me of President Lincoln's excuse for allowing difficult people to serve in his Cabinet. He told the story of two brothers plowing a field with a reluctant plowhorse. Then a horsefly bit the horse on the rump and it ran off accross the field pulling the plow, with the plowboy hanging on for dear life. The other brother, who had had to whip the horse to make it plow even balkily, ran up and knocked the horsefly off. The horse then stopped completely. But the plowboy got angry and vented: "What did you do that for? It was the only thing that would make him plow!"
Montag | 05.04.08 - 10:49 pm | #