Another ugly comment by the SWPs saxophonist of choice but entirely of a piece with his comment in 2003 that:
"Israel's behaviour throws some light on the persecution of Jews throughout history" - a disgraceful comment fully available to anyone who wanted to know what he was about, before the SWP opportunistically adopted him.
It is clearly a good time for the SWP to pull the plug on certain friendships. Hoist by their own petard in terms of opportunistic alliances with right wing Islamists in Respect, their relationship with George Galloway is at an all-time low.
Sooner or later they will have to explain that to their members and make clear what they no longer agree with. So why don't they, at the same time, re-assess their relationship with a figure whose outbursts are patently antisemitic, and whose association with the SWP undermines their reputation as solid anti-racist campaigners?
in dealing with Atzmon, though they may want to take a leaf out of GG's book. I understand that the other night he ranted at longstanding SWP activitist (and former GG lapdog) Shaun Doherty and his SWP cohorts: "Fuck off, fuck off the lot of you"
For a socialist, anti-racist organsiation to say something along these lines to Gilad Atzmon would be perfectly justified and long overdue.
david t of harry's place said that he would no more take his political cue from atzmon than he would from morrisey but then he has an interest in the anti-war anti-zionist movement shooting itself in the foot. And i wouldn't want morrisey at an anti-racist gig any more than i would want clapton or atzmon.
He just loves the dissonance, has no idea what he's saying. And wouldn't conceive of taking responsibility for what he says, any more than he would expect to get sued for a sax solo.
(GMAFB!)
He seems intent on tarring every Jew with the shortcomings Israelis display as they deal with the expediencies necessitated by their colonial project. I wonder why?
Is he trying to stake out a position as the ultimate crypto-Zionist?
Of course it is, 'knuckles', in the same way that my children, when they were very young, used to call each other 'stupid head' when they were annoyed.
I think "knuckles" is an Atzmon proxy. In fact, I'm certain.
"the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their racial brothers Tony Greastein, Mark Elf and Roland Rance were unpopular in the PSC AGM just a few months ago. Seemingly, it is the personification of WW2 and the Holocaust that blinded the Ethnic Jewish Campaigners and their supporters from internalising the real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction in the first place."
"The reason for the extermination of much of European Jewry in the 1930's was because the Jews were unpopular...."
what a joke that is!
Let's change it: The Jews were exterminated in the 1930s, because they were overwhelmingly popular!
This fit nicely into the JSF philosophy//
Elf - ask yourself why Atzmon is so popular, selling out every night and your site has the internet ranking of a small site from micronesia, about earthworm breeding or the life cycle of the frog!
And Atzmon does not sell out every night unless you mean performing for the SWP, whose politics he is at odds with, amounts to selling out. But it's more the SWP selling out, than Atzmon. As far as I know, this is the SWP position on Atzmon. Lenin's been here a couple of times recently. Perhaps he could say when either the SWP or Atzmon changed. I thought Lenin said that Atzmon wouldn't be invited again. If he did, that seems to have gone from the page. Atzmon too changes what he has written to undermine his critics and enhance his prospect of obtaining a legal gag on them. A "convergence plan" for the SWP and Atzmon perhaps.
Just trying to feel my way to a full understanding here...
Mind you, on account of his colossal ego, I was thinking we could dub him 'Dieu Sans Frontieres'.
knuckles: Like david t, you are a liar, Elf. Born and bred. You know I am on a different continent to Atzmon. Even GA cannot leap from continent to continent several times in one day, something you should have realised many moons ago.
Edited By Siteowner
It was a big enough deal then and it's an even bigger deal now given his Der Sturmer type antics at the Peace Palestine site over Michael Rosen (and Deborah Maccoby and me) and his holocaust justification piece on indymedia.
And then of course there is the fact that the SWP is now on record saying that he is not antisemtic.
The fact is that when the leadership rebuffed your approach, you then decided it wasn't a big deal.
I just cut pages and pages from your ludicrous diatribe. I didn't even read most of it but I did notice that you accused me of supporting "Tony Greenstein's agenda" at the PSC AGM. I did not. I didn't want JAZ to raise any issue about antisemitism at the PSC AGM, in fact I left JAZ because they did and I thought they were allowing you to be too much of a distraction.
You clearly believe that all Jews are the Jew.
I'm done with you now.
One doesn't normally vet each musician or other entertainer for his or her political rectitude before allowing him or her to appear at a benefit gig.
However, Atzmon is primarily known in left-wing circles not as a saxophonist but as a political figure. And it is his politics which are the problem. They are poisonous.
To paraphrase Frank Zappa: 'Shut up and play your saxophone.'
I think you know that's not the issue - though I honestly can't see the difference between inviting that BNP Ballerina (only to dance, mind you) and inviting a saxophonist who espouses world Jewish conspiracy theories and circulates approvingly a fawning article about one of the world's leading holocaust deniers etc.
So why doesn't she get invited? Ballet too high brow? I don't think that's the reason.
Now I don't expect SWP gigs to only have on stage those who subscribed for decaded to "Neither Washington nor Moscow" or to the SWPs current version of marxism but you would have thought they might avoid certain categories eg homophobes, paedophiles, mysogynists, antisemites...
But Atzmon over the years has been invited to speak as well as play, and invited to talk about his book at Bookmarks, ie given loads of credibility. And he keeps getting invited back even as his statements about Jews become more outrageous and as anti-racists challenge the SWP about it.
The charitable explanation which I mainly support is that it is opportunism - Atzmon plays good and interesting music and more than that he is the link to more important stars like Coureney Pine that SWP want on board, so they will ignore, tolerate or play down his antisemitism, ends justify the means and all that jazz.
The less charitable explanations are:
a) that the SWP have such a crass and simplistic view of anti-zionism/antisemitism that they can't tell when someone is using one as a cloak for the other (several years back SW published a letter from an NF activist (Anthony Jones) because they couldn't tell this particular difference - I was the one that pointed it out to them)
b) in a period when SWP have been jumping into bed rather promiscuously with various islamist organisations for opportunist reasons (a period that seems to be ending in tears) they may have patronisingly considered that this new constituency would welcome their support for someone espousing views on Jews more commonly associated with right wing islamists.
It would be nice, Lenin, if you would confirm that the more innocent charitable explanation is the right one but I am just stating to wonder about the less charitable explanations.
The problem is that the SWP didn’t just put Atzmon on once, they are repeatedly doing so. He was a guest at their Cultures of Resistance concert, he has done fundraisers all over the country for them and now I learn that SWP member Sabby Sagall has been instrumental in organising Atzmon to play at a Camden PSC benefit.
When Eric Clapton came out with his ‘I back Enoch (Powell)’ comment the SWP didn’t ask him to play at a concert they formed Rock Against Racism. That is the measure of where they have drifted politically.
Mark says that Roland I pulled back from calling him a holocaust denier. I wouldn’t pull back today because his political position today is as near as makes no difference. Not only does he justify the holocaust but he argues that holocaust scholares ‘dare’ not challenge the revisionists.
Look at the Esther piece below ‘Though they may be critical of different aspects of the exploitation of the Holocaust, they all accept the validity of the Nazi Judeocide and its mainstream interpretations and implications. Most of the scholars, if not all of them, do not challenge the Zionist narrative, namely Nazi Judeocide’ note the word ‘validity’ of the holocaust and the refusal to ‘challenge the Zionist narrative, namely Nazi Judeocide’. Clearly Atzmon believes that the very fact of the holocaust is open to doubt.
Not only does Atzmon justify the holocaust in terms of the ‘unpopularity’ of Germany’s Jews but he demonstrates that he is an ignoramus as well. The holocaust had nothing to do with the Jews’ unpopularity. Read Ian Kershaw’s ‘The Hitler Myth’ and ‘Popular Dissent and Opinion in the 3rd Reich’. Going back to Sopade (SPD) and Gestapo files we find that it took very considerable efforts by the Nazis to try and persuade German people that the Jews were what they said and there is no indication that they succeeded. Anti-semitism was mainly confined to the Nazi Party itself and even within the Nazi Party there were sections, mainly bourgeois, who treated it with contempt.
Mike Rosen is spot on when he says that this argumentation is nothing more than a justification for racism. Maybe Muslims too are unpopular now, so would Knuckles/Atzmon be in favour of their extermination? It is no accident that the controversy over Atzmon began when we criticised Deir Yassin Remembered and the open holocaust deniers – Israel Shamir and Paul Eisen. Atzmon wrote back attacking Roland Rance, Debbie Maccoby and myself in a lovely little piece entitled ‘The Learned Elders of London’. I don’t live there anyway but it was clear that he was simply borrowing the formulation of the anti-Semitic forgery The Learned Elders of Zion, which Hitler found so true. Indeed Atzmon queries whether it is a forgery but then tells us it doesn’t matter because everything described there has come to pass.
It is incidentally no accident that Atzmon attacks what Knucklehead calls the ‘racial brothers’ i.e. Jewish anti-Zionists. Zionists too hate us just as they hate the Jewish diaspora which Atzmon has equal contempt for. Which is one of the reason when you separate the wheat from the chaff, what remains is the Zionism and anti-Semitism of Atzmon.
Of course the Zionists at Harry’s Place – David T and Mikey – love him as the extract below from HP indicates.
Purim Special
From Esther to AIPAC
By GILAD ATZMON
http://www.counterpunch.org/
atzm...on03032007.html
The Scholars who are engaged in the study of the Holocaust religion (theology, ideology and historicity), are engaged mainly with structural formulations, its meanings, its rhetoric and its historical interpretation. Some happen to search for the theological dialectic (Marc Ellis), others formulate the commandments (Adi Ofir), some learn its historical evolution (Lenni Brenner), other expose its financial infrastructure (Finkelstein). Interestingly enough, most scholars who are engaged in the subject of Holocaust religion are engaged with a list of events that happened between 1933-1945. Most of the scholars are themselves orthodox observants. Though they may be critical of different aspects of the exploitation of the Holocaust, they all accept the validity of the Nazi Judeocide and its mainstream interpretations and implications. Most of the scholars, if not all of them, do not challenge the Zionist narrative, namely Nazi Judeocide, yet, more than a few are critical of the way Jewish and Zionist institutes employ the Holocaust. Though some may dispute the numbers (Shraga Elam), and others question the validity of memory (Ellis, Finkelstein), no one goes as far as revisionism, not a single Holocaust religion scholar dares engage in a dialogue with the so-called 'deniers' to discuss their vision of the events or any other revisionist scholarship.
http://
hurryupharry.bloghouse.ne..._jewishness.php
Gilad Atzmon and Jewishness
Last week, Mikey invited me for a drink with Gilad Atzmon.
Mikey's thoughts on Gilad and his worldview follow, below.
Gilad was, I have to say, utterly charming and a delightful drinking companion. He arrived with a copy of his album "Exile" and his new work, Artie Fishel and the Promised Band. On the way home in the taxi, we played the first of the two albums. My taxi driver thought it excellent, and so did I.
You're arguing black is white here and you know you are.
Richard Wagner actually saw a bit more barricade action than Knucklie, but never got invited to "Marxism 1848"
Perhaps because of his inablility to play 2 alpenhorns at the same time, or the fact he lost his M.U card trying it?
"She has chosen to join the BNP – and so her involvement in the English National Ballet has to be terminated."
(http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?
id=10516)
A BNP sympathiser should be denied work by the National Ballet (or anybody?) but it's OK for the SWP to employ the anti-semite Atzmon at a fund-raiser for the SWP?
This is contradictory nonsense.
If the SWP were to be consistent in its inconsistency we could be treated to the surreal spectacle of SWP members paying to attend a SWP fund-raiser by Atzmon whilst simultaneously protesting his presence.
A bizarre take on 'Love Music, Hate Racism'.
I am not defending or attacking him - I am just curious because it would ellucidate the points being made using him as an example.
Sorry for going off topic.
.
However, I have to say that I barely noticed the attack on Jews in that Indymedia article. The bulk of it seemed to be a fairly logical and (so far as I understand the subject) accurate critique of Israeli politico-military policy in recent years. I don't think I would have come away from reading it thinking "This was written by an anti-semite" if you hadn't pointed out some of the relevant passages -- because they seemed rather irrelevant and uninteresting, I would have ignored them.
I'm not sure what this means, other than that people (especially gentiles like me) who are not as informed and observant as you may not find Atzmon's politics notably offensive. Perhaps this helps to explain the SWP position as well.
And I think most people would notice someone likening the State of Israel of today with the overwhelmingly anti-zionist European Jewish community that was ravaged by Hitler even if he tucked it away amid the usual rambling pretentious tosh. Conflating people with states is something common to both zionists and antisemites. It plays well to the ignorant but SWPers are usually quite well read except their foot soldiers tend only to the recommended reading of the leadership.
Really, this is all a "no brainer." There shouldn't be anything to discuss here, expecially when you compare the position on Atzmon to their squeamishness about Finkelstein and Brenner.
Re the SWP, I noticed that Lenin didn't use the word "antisemitic" or "racist" to describe Atzmon's articles. He said "His articles are disingenuous and dangerous horseshit." The SWP line is that Atzmon is not antisemitic so I doubt if we will see Lenin using the A word on Atzmon again. He also said that hardly anyone reads him though I don't know how he knows. The increasingly conspiracistic Counterpunch clearly feels he's worth publishing and of course he has the SWP's own imprimatur. That ballerina woman doesn't even write articles, she just belongs to what Atzmon's mentor Israel Shamir would have called a "non-bourgeois nationalist party." And the SWP's line on her is that she should be sacked. Perhaps that's so the SWP can employ her itself. That would be consistent.
knuckles |
When Elf's artistry on the soprano sax matches his mastery of the tenor, and is revealed to the public Atzmon's noodling attempts at a musical kugle will be relegated to... well, let's just say "His kugle will be relegated", and leave it at that!
Michael Rosen |
Maybe Leonard Feather can help. And he'll help about as much as anybody.
"For my first piece, a twelve-tone evocation of Some Common Anti-Semetic Tropes"
When I first encountered Atzmon a year or two ago, I gathered that he was antizionist. One of the points he was making at the time, as I understood him, was that in his view, there was no reason for Jews to organise separately against Zionism. Without going into all his tribalism, holocaust religion crap, it made sense to me to organise with non Jewish antizionists. I even signed his bloody petition without noticing the hidden agenda, although I think I would have had to be much closer to what had been going on in the movement in Britain at the time to have noticed. Since then, I've rethought that position. While I still think it's important to be part of a larger movement, because of the largely successful attempt on the part of the Zionists and their state to present themselves as speaking for and representing all Jews, we incur a special responsibility to speak out as Jews.
Since then, I've had the misfortune of reading much more of his drivel than I ever wanted. Through all the fog of ill chosen lexicon and poorly constructed sentences, through all the obfuscation and pseudo philosophy, his antisemitism eventually emerged. I even had to write a blog post about that Purim piece that Tony quoted (http://tinyurl.com/354wnl).
A couple of weeks ago, Atzmon sent me a link to some of his clips. It took me a while to get around to it although I hadn't heard him before, but I confess it's hard not to like a guy who plays like that. Still, if he were playing locally, I'd probably grit my teeth and give it a miss. I can understand why any organisation would embrace a musician who can draw audiences and is willing to play benefits for them. I daresay what Atzmon gets from these gigs is political credibility. It may or may not be necessary to have a certain level of agreement with artists playing benefits, but everyone knows that Atzmon plays SWP gigs and a great many probably assume this implies something about his political positions. While I can certainly understand why lenin would want to defend his party's reputation, in my view, the SWP is ill advised to provide him with a forum. Even just to play.
Possibly Cockburn inherited some of his father's CP intransigence as well....
But the thread here is about the SWP (including now, Lenin) supporting someone who has doctored the writings of someone, Michael Rosen, who has worked with the SWP far longer than Atzmon and is actually an anti-racist and a socialist unlike Atzmon.
The SWP is on record saying that Atzmon is not a racist. They are hosting him at political events that give the appearance that the SWP approves of his politics. His antisemitic politics are gaining traction in the anti-zionist movement thanks to the SWP. Ernie above says that he signed what turned out to be a petition to attempt to purge Jews from the anti-zionist movement. Over a thousand people signed that petition. Some of the blame for that has to rest with the SWP.
The SWP or a section of it seems to be Martin Smith's fiefdom. The SWP undermined Lenni Brenner because they thought he might offend Jews and they criticised Norman Finkelstein for the name of the Holocaust Industry again because it might offend Jews. Atzmon goes out of his way to make overtly antisemitic statements and they pass under the SWP's over-sensitive radar. It makes no sense at all unless Martin Smith owns the SWP and footsoldiers like Lenin feel they have to appease him or the SWP is so broke it needs Atzmon to fundraise.
Nope, I said it earlier, their leaders have become a joke at the expense of the members. Meanwhile zionists and antisemites are having a field day and the SWP appears to be too on the ropes with other issues to pay attention to what a disastrous association Martin Smith has led them into.
"i think we can assume that the swp have made an asressment that goes- ga playing sax is worth more than the sum total of jewish anth zionist disapproual of g. atzmon."
Well, it's difficult to understand the SWP' political arithmetic, perhaps Michael is right. However, I think it is mistaken for them, or anyone, to think that here they can simply discount the matter as a 'niche' concern of Jewish anti-Zionists.
They are effectively raising two fingers to all anti-racists - they will decide what counts, and if it's in contradiction to other actions or stated positions of theirs, tough.
Non-SWP members are quite used to, and can identify, contempt from the SWP leadership. Do SWP members understand that they are being pissed on from a great height?
Der Sturmer type blog? Elf, you are obviously deranged.
BTW, you are a liar, because YOU read the post, which brought you to my blog to read the article by Gilad that apparently you want to shelter your friends from seeing! Therefore, they think that Gilad is using other people to respond for him when this is not true, and you can read what he wrote yourselves.
the post i wrote mentioned that on my blog Atzmon responds to this thread. Ban worthy? No, it's merely censorship.
Then there was the infamous Nasrallah interview hoax, a bit of wishful thinking which Cockburn did not exactly apologize for: http://ww4report.com/node/2347
and as I recall, Lenin is another one that fell into the wishful thinking category on that.
What wishful thinking compels Atzmon apologists generally and the SWP specifically remains mysterious to me. The only logical explanation is the sectarian left's endless capacity for self-immolation in pursuit of its own self-marginalization.
I believe you and Atzmon to be the scum of the earth deliberately dividing the anti-zionist movement simply for attention seeking purposes. I don't have to make anything up there.
It saddens me that for the sake of his taste in music, Martin Smith of the SWP, is dragging the SWP down to your level, including Lenin, whose blog I used to contribute to. If you want to talk about dishonesty you might like to explain how this morphed to this. But then as a lying piece of shit yourself, the last thing in this life you want to do is talk about dishonesty.
Anyone who comes here knows that I have no interest in making anything up and that I am more than ready to correct, and if appropriate to apologise for mistakes. But make no mistake, you and Atzmon are antisemitic pieces of shit. Go get Atzmon to stump up two lots of twelve hundred quid for lawyer's letters. I'm easy enough to find. But better still run one of your Der Sturmer type pages and have all your racist troll following tell you how funny you are. You might even plead with some to come here and hassle me. Maybe you could get this Gillespie to adopt a Jewish name and say how much she appreciates me and Israel. Or how about a Rowan Berkeley to explain my responsibility for two world wars.
But just don't be so silly as to suggest that banning a racist troll like ourself or any other Atzmon proxy or surrogate from a 300 hits a day blog amounts to censorship. Censorship is about stopping people expressing themselves at all like Atzmon did by force of finance to Sue Blackwell. You can tell your lies through many forums. Atzmon seeks to silence people period. As it happens that's another "principle" Atzmon has had the SWP abandon. I reckon a year from now Atzmon can make a proud boast that will actually be true for a change. He can publish his book, "The SWP, my role in its downfall." Don't expect a blurb from Galloway on the back though. He'll have parliamentary business that day. In spite of the SWP and my ex-friend, some people still have standards.
I entirely agree.
You have the right to exercise editorial control over your own blog.
There's absolutely no reason to give the nauseating trio any space to defend their poisonous views in it.
The SWP are making a serious mistake by giving Atzmon a left cover.
The only thing I would disagree with is that Atzmon does not get flak from the establishment, far from it. Whereas you refer to him being "chased" by the establishment.
The zionists clearly have a need for him and so the mainstream leaves him to get on with it, which means the SWP's (and Counterpunch's) support for him is not a simple case of my enemy's enemy. When Atzmon was considered anti-zionist he drew some flak from the likes of the Jewish Chronicle. Since going over to antisemitism Harry's Place have taken him out to tea or dinner and the mainstream have him down as "controversial".
And i wouldn't want morrisey at an anti-racist gig any more than i would want clapton or atzmon.
Morrissey is, in fact, a supporter of Unite Against Fascism:
http://www.uaf.org.uk/aboutUAF.a...AF.asp?
choice=4
But then, the Joint Secretary of Unite Against Fascism is Weyman Bennett who is a member of the Central Committee of the Socialist Workers' Party: which is presently promoting Gilad Atzmon.
I found the Morrissey song "Bengali in Platforms" disgusting and unequivocally racist, albeit in a commonplace "foreigners will never fit in here" sort of way.
However Morrissey didn't have a sideline as a political journalist. And he hasn't been toured around by the SWP, touting his obnoxious politics.
Perhaps, now that SWP members are being figuratively tossed off the top of tower blocks by the Galloway/Jamaatis, they might ask Morrissey to do a special fundraising recording of Bengali in Platforms. After all, the SWP do love artists with "brave" and "controversial" views.
And Martin Smith is a Morrissey fan.
Only you do this Elf, the title of yr blog alone seeks to divide the human family into Jews & non Jews. It’s dismal, as soon as we completely forget about yr existence, up you pop again - hemorrhaging animosity, envy & racist scorn into cyber space.
I wonder if what bothers you so intensely about Gilad is a semi-conscious awareness that, for anyone to create music to such rapturous acclaim, entails a degree of passion, empathy & intellect that is impossible for you to dismiss easily. Even the septic, old alcoholic Eris Clapton does a fine rendition of Bessie Smith classic ‘Nobody knows you when yr down & out’. What do you propose Elfy? Confiscating musical instruments until artists submit to a lifetime subscription to the Guardian?
And mine is the only blog to divide humanity into Jews and non-Jews? Except of course I don't do that, I merely identify as Jewish as any tolerant and decent person would accept. I really don't care who's Jewish and who's not. Gillespie and Atzmon think it's wrong to identify as Jewish unless you are religious though I don't quite know how Atzmon lets Primo Levi off the hook, which he has. I think he had him down as "second category" but I can't remember what that means except it's better than third. Ronnie Kasrils, of whom Atzmon (using his own name for a change) asked "is he a Jew?" also got off the hook. He identifies as Jewish specifically when he is condemning Israel but Martin Smith must have told Atzmon that even the SWP couldn't stoop to allowing an antisemitic denunciation of one of the doyens of the ANC, even if he (Kasrils) does support a two-state solution. Nope, it's not me that divides humanity into Jew and non-Jew, it's Atzmon. He doesn't denounce other identity groups. Ok, he insults Muslims with his yabbering on about the cruelty of circumcision but that's his pig ignorance, not wilful denunciation of a whole community. He just doesn't seem to know that Muslims do circumcision too. Also his stereotyping of Arabs when he uses the name Abed or Jihad is pretty annoying for its manifest racism for all bar Atzmon (and his on line proxy army) to see. But again that's because he's stupid. Nope, Sarah Gillespie, it's racists like yourself and Atzmon who do that.
Simply identifying as Jews shouldn't cause division and certainly doesn't amount to a division any more than identifying as a Muslim or an Arab or a Berber does. It's racists and sectarians (in one word, racists) who make issues and divisions out of these things. If Gillespie is concerned about divisions in society she should try to persuade Atzmon to stop lying about anti-racist activists but then she'd have to stop doing that herself.
This itself is a dismal argument, if you can call it an argument.
Democracy is about diversity it is not a grey, homogenised, pastuerised, industrialised, undifferentiated blob.
If democracy, freedom and justice is about anything it is about being able to express your own idetity and culture in the way you feel appropriate.
If democracy is about anything it is about appreciating others peoples right to express themselves, and who they are, in the way they want.
This isn't division - this is what humanity does and always has done and to object to people doing what comes naturally to them is just a sign of racist bigotry.
Exactly how does this help Palestinians achieve democracy, freedom and justice by denying it to others?
More importantly - exactly how does someone attacking Jewish folk help the regime in Tel Aviv?
...for anyone to create music to such rapturous acclaim, entails a degree of passion, empathy & intellect that is impossible for you to dismiss easily.
- Richard Wagner, the epitome of the Romantic Movement anyone?
Wagner is considered one of the three great individual pinnacles of human culture (Shakespeare and somebody else, whose name escapes me, make up the other two). An uglier human being it would be impossible to meet, socially and politically, but this has nothing to do with his creativity in musical form and content.
Wagner also had a huge ego - that's about all you can say about him as a person (although BBC Radio 3 always manage to string out the meaningless iota of this particular composers life, without saying much about his racist politics).
When you were on his programme Michael, he expressed some very strong views against antisemitism.
Some used to swoon in the presence of L'Abbe Liszt, others hitched rides in the 'Chariot of the Gods' and made plaster casts.
Evidently this poor soul thinks that there is some relationship between musical ability and intellect.
Endless repetition on a stale old theme is not evidence of intellect and
sucking at the toes of this 'master' will just give his fans stale breath.
tell me which Palestinian groups and Palestinian organisations subscribe to Atzmon's views?
Given that Atzmon's constantly self-advertised CV is so impressive, what with all the media exposure, books, and stuff and all the publicity he attracts (compared to JSF for instance) surely he ought to be one of the most popular saxophone-playing self-haters on the planet especially amongst Palestinian related groups -
- why is he not more popular with Palestinian organisations then, or even popular?
Maybe they don't believe the hype either, unlike the Tel Aviv regime which will be lapping up this derogatory and degrading racist crap like a cat with cream.
I can't think of a better way to support what the Israeli regime is doing to Palestinians than by spreading vile anti-Jewish racist filth about in public. After all, Israel is supposed to be there to ultimately protect Jewish people from anti-semitism, or doesn't Atzmon know the basics of trying to help Palestinian folks?
But to write offensive racist abuse about Judaism and Jewish people and say I am doing for the benefit of Palestinians themselves, as Atzmon does, is unbelievable!
Like Ernie Halfdram,
I was a bit taken in at first too. Atzmon isn't the world's most straightforward openly honest writer, and he isn't going to win any awards for writing style either.
This is one of the reasons I consider 'postmodernism' just a load of mindrotting, gobbledegook, anti-intellectual tosh. Stuff written in the Atzmon style is meant to hide not enlighten, hence the reason his articles get exposure, because they are just about impossible to understand but look impressive, as if they might be hiding something that just needs a little bit of careful reading and thinking to uncover. Alas no!
The verbage is there in order hide the fact his articles, in the true postmodern style, are about nothing really. They'll look impressive if you publish them on your website though, as if you too have profound knowledge of stuff, and so might attract others of a similar disposition - that's showbiz and celebrity status for you, folks!
I hope some of this makes some sense.
all the best JSF!
Palestinians are famously partial to Stan Getz and what Leonard Feather describes as the "cool West Coast School"
And once again, the "failings" of the Israelis are the exact same failings which will be displayed by any group of people in the same circumstances. Colonial projects bring out the worst in people, these failings are hardly exclusive to Jews.
Atzmon knows, I think, that there is no better way to obfuscate the situation than to bring the word "Jew" into play. That's why I can never see him as anything but a crypto-Zionist.
This is the thing about jew-baiters like atzmon -
- you ignore them at your peril
- and if you reply to their racist provocations then it's reinforcing their attention seeking strategies.
Unfortunately, atzmon's mixes up his racist garbage with important stuff to do with Palestinians. So it is a bit of a quandry on how to respond to jew-baiting, whilst at the same time not wanting to reinforce atzmon's attention seeking behaviour, whilst at the same time having to deal with the implications of associating Palestinians and their friends with an anti-Jewish racist balloon.
According to atzmon and his gaggle of ego-massagers,
JSF and the like, are gatekeepers (of something or other) - but at the same time JSF is slagged off by the atzmon jew-baiters, for the fact it is such an obscure minor work, run by one obscure minor personage - so which is it?
Is JSF gatekeeping the portals to a vast panoply of democratic pluralistic liberal debate - or is it just somewhere insignificant nobody ever visits much?
You can see here the old conundrum that racist have when they accuse their victims of living in ghettos, but at the same time accusing them of trying to take over control of wider society, the world even.
Also, if atzmon is so popular, and he has been around for some time now, then how come there is no Palestinian organisation or group which openly endorses him?
There really isn't that many official Palestinian imprimatur's for the saxphone prima donna's political work, if any. I mean, it isn't as if people are turning up to gigs to hear him talk politics, which he seems to be implying and which he seems to be extolling as one of the reasons for his self-proclaimed popularity.
As you say Mooser,
Israel and its so-called supporters claims it to be a 'Jewish state' but this is just a claim.
To claim that Israel carries out the awful crimes that it does is because it is Jewish, is anti-semitism.
The Nazis carried out their crimes in the name of Germany, Stalin carried his out in the name of Russian people etc but these are only claims. It was the Nazi regime and the Stalinist regime which carried out their own crimes, not Germany or Russia.
Some Germans and some Russians opposed the Nazi and Stalinist regimes - likewise the current Israeli regime.
I suppose if we do blame all Jewish folk for the crimes of an Israeli regime many of them don't approve of, don't vote for, and don't live under then I suppose it will be ok to collectively punish them as well.
It doesn't take a Belgian Alpine-Horn playing genius to work through some of the points I have been making - they are made time and again on JSF.
I hope some of that made some sense.
all the best folks!
In it David tells us that if anyone doesn't like him choosing to spend his spare time promoting racists that's "tough". He also describes Atzmon's antisemitic conspiracy theorising as "zany". And let's us know that this isn't the first racist he's been friendly with, after all he had an "extremely racist" friend at university. So why should this be different?
On Atzmon/the SWP generally, I think we have an issue here. In essence, I think there is a very good argument that Atzmon's position is now that of a postmodern fascist. Now, while they host him, the SWP are obviously not fascist. But there's precedent here. In the late 80's in particular, the fact that the Conservative Party is not actually a fascist party did not give them carte blanche to host fascist speakers, and that was passionately demonstrated to certain local conservative groups.
So, aside from obvious practical/pragmatic considerations, can anyone give me a good reason why No Platform should not be applied to the SWP, voluntarily or otherwise?
Because it would quite rightly be seen as an attempted amalgam designed to divide the left.
The point is to convince the SWP that they're acting wrongly, by exposing Atzmon's pernicious political views in public.
editor’s note: on the Jews Sans Frontieres blog, they have finally discovered an article that has been widely circulated on internet for many months now, on Peacepalestine, Tlaxcala (in 5 languages), Dissident Voice, Information Clearing House, Indymedia, Palestine Chronicle, Redress, Al Jazeera Magazine, ISM, Amin, and dozens of blogs and other sites in many languages. The discovery of this article has lead to a feeble attempt at labeling Gilad Atzmon – for the sake of variety – as a dangerous or mad anti-Semite. This is Gilad’s response to the post and the comments:
What a bunch of silly tribal Jewish ethnic activists you are,
Saying NO to the Hunters of Goliath - comment by thecutter
Using this evidence helpfully provided by one of the leading exponents of the idea of 'gatekeeping',
we can see not only how effectively, but how efficently and seriously these so-called 'gatekeepers' take their work. Shifty, workshy Jewish supremists that they are.
Reverse Gatekeeping-ism
(in tribute to the concept of reverse-racism)
"No one is asking someone to deny his identity. We are saying it does not work as a political argument for the liberation of Palestinians, and further, the blog Elf has is not about that at all, it is about Jewish identity in the UK. full stop. There is little else that one sees there."
- comments by thecutter
Political genius that this blogger is, denying anybody the right to express themselves in the way they feel appropriate, all things considered and being equal, is deliberate censorship. Depriving people of their human rights of free legal expression in order to promote the universal values of freedom, equality and justice is ignorant, bigoted and fascist and is but the words and actions of an arrogant western imperialist - it's also contradictory, much like the charge of 'gatekeeping' and evidence of its existence.
I would like to know exactly what should be done to help Palestinians achieve justice and gain their human rights they are deliberately deprived of? If I knew the answer to these problems I would have already put them into practice. However, depriving people of their legal rights under the UN Declaration of Human Rights and the UN Charter, is not one of the answers I have ever came across that is being put forward by any Palestinian group or organisation, in order that they the provisions and rights in these two documents be applicable to themselves.
I have yet to see any Palestinian group or organisation elect Atzom, or any of his helpers, as their advocates and spokespersons. Unlike Atzmon, Prof Edward Said positivley encouraged particiapation and engagement with Jewish folk - but here we have a non-Palestinian telling them what is good for them!
So who is right here - Prof Edward Said versus Gilad Atzmon? Not much of a contest is it?
Further, Palestinians and their friends are in such straits, they are basically required to take any support they get from whichever source, even from pompous arrogant racists like Atzmon, whose antisemitism comes in the form of a gift Trojan Horse.
No Palestinian group or organsiation openly endores his views and none have elected him as their advocate or spokesperons, so don't be fooled by his determinations about who should and who shouldn't be involved in helping Palestinians, and by extension, universal values in general. This is just "reverse-gatekeeping".
"Joe does not understand the meaning of Jewishness (tribal thought that puts Jewish interests first and foremost and condemning anyone who criticises the political use of Jewish Identity)"
"tribal thought" - a throwback to western nineteenth century western imperialism and is obviously intended to be deliberately derogatory and offensive
"Judaism is used as a politcial weapon"
"political weapon" - is obviously intened to be deliberately offensive and menacing.
As I have said, the plight of Palestinians here is being used as a vehicle to insult Jewish folk and as a vehicle for jew-baiting, nothing more.
Sorry for feeding the jew-baiters, but I thought some of these points might be helpful (and hopefully understandable).
all the best JSF!
Check the home page here. There are five posts on Finkelstein at Oxford. One on the holocaust industry by a holocaust survivor. Two on Leon Rosselson appearances. One on some lying, racist, buffoon (I think his name's Atzmon), three on Stop the War, one on the Menezes shooting, one on Blair in Palestine, one on Linda Grant NOT (understand NOT!) working for Israel, one on nazis in Israel (not Atzmon of course - perish the thought), one on Israel targeting children, one apologising for saying a guy supported the war on Iraq when he didn't, four on OneVoice, two on the academic boycott, one showing Mearsheimer on the telly, one on Tutu being barred from Minnesota uni, one on the racist structure of Israel, one on CAABU protesting to the JC, and one on a Ben White article. Nothing there at all about the Jewish identity in the UK.
Remember that once when Atzmon had writer's block and couldn't think up any more bogus names for himself, Mary was reduced to asking you to come and troll here because I called her a lying piece of shit. What else should I call her or her mentor Atzmon. I never go to Peace Palestine and look at the time I've just wasted on her.
But thanks for getting up to speed Joe.
I have only visited thecutter's blog a few times just recently, for the reason that my name is being dragged through the mud - it is disgusting, hence these comments!
thecutter's is a blog with the word 'palestine' in the title as well! Any neutral visitor would get the wrong impression about Palestine and Palestinians, given the standards and ethics her blog practices - with friends like her, who needs enemies.
If Palestine and Palestinians represent anything it is humanity, decency, tolerance, understanding.
Those who claim to be friends of Palestinians have to show themselves to be worthy of these great People. This really shouldn't be that difficult. After all, universal values involving equality, freedom and justice do not need its advocates to throw mud;
to blackmail others by publishing private correspondence in public;
to involve themselves in postmodernist circumlocutions and assorted gibberish;
to deny others the right to express themselves in the way they want to;
etc etc
As you said Mark,
honesty is all you need.
all the best Mark and thanks for hosting my rambles!
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