Any Palestinian Statelet vouchsafed by Israel would be as much a legal fiction as the Papal States, which ceased to exist in 1870 when the Kingdom of Italy decided that enough was enough. After the Pope refused all efforts at a negotiated settlement and closed the Roman gates in the face of the Italian Army, they simply breached the walls with cannon fire and walked in. The Pope became an Arafat sequestered in his palace. And the world did nothing.
Montag | 03.14.08 - 3:33 am | #

Hi Mark. Do you favor a 2 State Solution? Do you think a pre-'67 2 Sate Solution would be acceptable to most Palestinians? BTW, I've had Gush Shalom on my sidebar for a while now.
Peace.
Human | Homepage | 03.14.08 - 11:22 pm | #

My own view is that in principle a one state solution is best. However since it is not up to me I am happy to run with what is acceptable to the people of what are now known as Israel and the occupied territories, by which I mean the people who are there now and the Palestinians who come from there.

It may well be that most of those people consider a two state solution to be acceptable now but it hasn't been implemented. In the course of its implementation maybe people will start to think that it wasn't so acceptable. So those people who say they support two-states because it's the "consensus" may well have to reconsider should that consensus break down.

But my preference is for one state from the river to the sea.

I can't always understand what Gush Shalom's Uri Avnery is saying. He seems to favour two states because he wants a state specially for Jews throughout most of Palestine. He is also opposed to any boycott of Israel because he says that it will remind Jews of the nazi boycott of Jewish shops in Germany which I think is tosh. And yet he shows great insight and courage, moral and physical, most of the time and the Gush Shalom site is the best resource I know of for exposing "Barak's generous offer".
Mark Elf (aka levi9909) | Homepage | 03.15.08 - 1:16 am | #

It seems to me, and from afar at that, a 2 State solution is the only one attainable. Just because of the mutual animosity. I for one don't believe any one group holds the Moral High Ground. After all the Blood that has been spilt on the Land, it's impossible to discern who drew it 1st(Now don't anybody go all Exodus on me ;)
btw - I also read Rabbi Michael Lerner at Tikkun. I met him at one of the many Anti War demonstrations I took part in. A very warm Gentleman was my impression.
I'm generally opposed to Boycotts of a Nations goods because it seems all it does is hurt the Commoners on the lowest rung.
Peace.
Human | Homepage | 03.15.08 - 1:51 am | #

Peace is nice, Human. But sometimes it's a word that's used to mean "maintain the status quo". Do you know about Germany and Jews? The German government from 1933 to 1945 was responsible for killing millions of Jews. Some animosity, huh? Now there is a large and growing Jewish community in Germany. Now Germany is one state for all of its people, not two states, one for its Jews and one for, in this case, its "Aryans".
Mark Elf (aka levi9909) | Homepage | 03.15.08 - 2:13 am | #

Yeah, I hear you British are trying to come up with a Pledge of Allegiance like ours. Actually you don't need to, because ours was originally a universal pledge written by a Christian Socialist named Francis Bellamy. It originally went, "I pledge allegiance to MY flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." But it got changed into a nationalist oath, and in the 1950s "under God" was added due to the Cold War.

My own opinion on a Palestinian State is that once Israel established the idea that the 1967 borders were as dead as a doornail that pretty much put the boot in. Unless Israel is willing to surrender in turn areas where Palestinians are in the majority within Israel itself, then the hypocrisy will prove deadly. The Israeli government will always push for another parcel of land and yet another, turning "Palestine" into a slice of Swiss cheese.

The problem will always be that any Palestinian quislings who accept such a rump Palestine won't have the popular support of the people--while leaders with popular support won't be able to accept it.
Montag | 03.15.08 - 2:49 am | #

Hi Mark. I don't equate Peace with the staus quo. And yes I'm well versed in History and the 3rd Reich/WWII in particular. I understand that you are using present day Germany as an example where extreme animosity can be overcome.
I agree it can be overcome. The parties must be willing to do that. In addition the Germans were not allowed to let their Conscience be free from guilt. As I don't live in Israel today, I can't say what the students are taught on the history of Israel as it pertains to the 20th Century(give or take a few years). Is there any mention of Deir Yassin? Or Shatilla and Sabra in middle school? Can the same questions be applied to what Palestinian students are taught?
If people are to arrive at an agreement that is serving to all sides then they must know how the present situation came to be.

Whether it is a 2 State or 1 State,
if the Palestinians and Israeli's ever get their shit in one bucket the Holy Land would be a Gold Mine. Big Bucks in them thar Pilgrims.
Peace.
Human | Homepage | 03.15.08 - 2:56 am | #

regarding this, the set of urls

http://www.counterpunch.org/ neum...nn03102008.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/ chri...on03112008.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/ cook...ok03122008.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/ kfou...ry03132008.html
Castellio | 03.15.08 - 4:30 am | #

I used to gobble up whatever Avnery wrote, including his 'Israel without Zionism' book from 1968. He said he was against the 1947 partition, and from reading between the lines I think he would support one state if it didn't go against the majority of Israeli Jews. At least his two state ideal outlined on GS makes it clear they won't stand for a cantonized statelet.

Although I admire Gush Shalom for the heat they must take from Israeli society, his cultural 'insights' on Arabs (that he apparently gets from his friends) tend to get on my nerves so I don't read him as often now. In explaining how Nasser's speeches did not necessarily mean he wanted war, he wrote 'Arabs love language'.
andrew r | 03.15.08 - 7:25 am | #

Human - apologies for my being so facetious. You're right about education etc. But that still means that you are accepting the status quo on the basis that Israel lies to its children. I'm not sure what should be done about that. It may be that two states could be a prelude to one state. But I still agree that with Israel's dominant position now, without BDS or some other action against Israel, the two state solution is as far away or illusory as the one state solution with Arabs equal to Jews.

Castellio - thanks for those. I don't like that Christison woman. She worked for the CIA and Counterpunch is so ludicrous these. Yes, it carries gfood articles by good people but this Christison seems to think that everyone was right with the American establishment in its dealings with the Middle East until the Jewish neocons took over in 1992. I'm sure she says that.

Andrew - yes, Avnery does seem extremely patronising towards the Arabs. He seemed to think that if you dealt with Arafat you were literally dealing with each and every Palestinian.
Mark Elf (aka levi9909) | Homepage | 03.15.08 - 9:58 am | #

Montag - the pledge of allegiance is ludicrous and it's typical that Labour should have come up with the idea. They always show themselves to be more conservative than the Tories.
Mark Elf (aka levi9909) | Homepage | 03.15.08 - 10:02 am | #

Human- I am coming to steal your house and kill your family. Then we will "make peace" on the basis of the status quo.
Then we can split up the mine, too.
mooser42001 | Homepage | 03.15.08 - 5:17 pm | #

Mark, I agree, it's like during the Cold War when the government required teachers to take Loyalty Oaths to prove they weren't Communists. One teacher of mentally deficient children refused to sign the oath and took heat for it. One of her students said, "If you was a Communist you'd have signed that thing."

They had a good joke on "The Family Guy" cartoon series. The Guy is taking a history test and is asked, "Complete this phrase, 'The Land of The Free and The Home of The _____?'" [Brave]

"Whopper?" [The Burger King hamburger]
Montag | 03.15.08 - 5:48 pm | #