Just to continue from a few posts ago our discussion about Mohammed Al Dura. Elf concludes Israel did it. A few months ago when I last was on the site we debated that a little, and the retort was that since Israel killed a lot of other children, it did not really matter if they killed Mohammed. However, the facts of this case matter. That argument is like saying John Demjamjuk was a Nazi even if he was not Ivan the Terrible, but he was not, and his conviction was overturned. If Israel did it, the hasbara folks are a bunch of lying murderous weasels. If the Hamas did it, then they are guilty of child abuse and even child sacrifice if it was intentional. It is horrifically important what the facts are of THIS case which may be why Elf backtracked and vehemently said Israel did it. This time. Stephanie Gutmann's The Other War: Israelis, Palestinians and the struggle for media supremacy (2005) talks about Al Dura and a lot of other media related issues. Al Dura was central to the Second Intifada's development and Israel was completely incompetent at media relations as Israeli official protests act as though the media is not a player. The cover of the book shows a little guy throwing a rock, and less than 10 feet away, all behind a line, are 75 journalists with cameras who of course are not in the photos. There is not an Israeli in sight.

The big hoopla recently, the trial in France etc. is not even supported by Israel officially. Its all private.
linguist | 03.10.08 - 1:40 am | #

Al-Dura was killed by his own people. Scientific studies have proven this. If you cna't agree with the truth, you are a moron.

The Arabs don't want peace. That is obvious from the state of Gaza. The Arabs had a chance to start a peacfuk state but they know only violence and destruction. Hopefull, Israel will cease to tolerate the Arab violence and show them some military might.
Jeffrey Levine | 03.10.08 - 4:10 am | #

There is a precedent for a long-term truce with Hamas, in that the Korean War is still technically going on. There was an Armistice in 1953, but it never was followed by a Peace Treaty as in other wars. The problem for the U.S. has been that they're dealing with a government with which they're still at war and have no diplomatic relations with--yet they manage to negotiate. Indeed, this has been one of North Korea's demands, that the U.S. normalize relations. But of course Bush refuses to do that with a member of the putative "Axis of Evil."
Montag | 03.10.08 - 4:24 am | #

Jeffrey Levine - What you are saying, leaving the racist generalisation about the Arabs to one side, is wrong in every detail. Who killed Mohammed al Dura cannot have been proven scientifically because Israel moved very quickly to destroy the evidence.

It's strange that you say that there was a chance for a peaceful state in Gaza when Sharon's sidekick, Dov Weisglas, said that the disengagement plan was designed to freeze the peace process and put paid to the idea of a Palestinian state:

The disengagement plan is the preservative of the sequence principle. It is the bottle of formaldehyde within which you place the president's formula so that it will be preserved for a very lengthy period. The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that's necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians....

And when you freeze that process you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and you prevent a discussion about the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem . Effectively, this whole package that is called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed from our agenda indefinitely..

Here's the link to the Ha'aretz article.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pag...l? itemNo=485929

But I'm guessing you've already read it.
Mark Elf (aka levi9909) | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 10:38 am | #

Isn't it amazing how closely the writing style of right wing Zionists resembles that of Holocaust Denial?

"Scientific studies have proven this"

Its the combination of asserting something whilst not really caring if its true or not that is the link here I think. Or in other words, people pretending to be making rational statements when they're just engaging in hate speech.
johng | 03.10.08 - 3:54 pm | #

Linguist you have zero evidence that Hamas did it. Zero, Zilch none. This is simply your own private version of the protacols of the elders of Palestine.
johng | 03.10.08 - 3:56 pm | #

"If Israel did it, the hasbara folks are a bunch of lying murderous weasels"

I think linguist, thats what called 'a hostage to fortune'.
johng | 03.10.08 - 5:50 pm | #

Gee linguist, I thought the "lying murderous weasels" thing was pretty well established a while ago. And, in sooth, those are just the exigencies of a colonial effort. And really predictable and regular as such.
And I am sure you will eventually be as proud as I am about having those exigencies tied to my religion.
After Israel's victory, can we have an Inquisition, too?
mooser42001 | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 9:28 pm | #

The true facts are that the Dura affair has been studied by several groups, and each group that does not have an anti=Israel agenda has PROVEN that Israel bears no responsibility for the childs death.

Of course Arabists, like the morons they are, will continue to blame Israel instead of taking responsibility for his death, which can be placed right at their doorstep.

Let's not forget that Arabs and Muslims are great at using children and women as human shields. A human shield is a perfectly valid military target.

The activities in Gaza have shown most Jews that peace is not a viable option. No country is stupid enough to allow their most active enemy to establish a state on their own botder.
Jeffrey Levine | 03.10.08 - 10:37 pm | #

Israel has killed many children and has no compunction about doing so. The idea then that Palestinians would use children as shields is ludicrous. There was one example of women coming to a mosque to surround a wanted man but Israel simply fired on the women, killing one and wounding several others. There is no evidence of any children being used in that way except by Israel.

Mohammed al Dura wasn't shielding anyone. He was up against a cement structure and his father was trying to shield him. Israel destroyed the cement structure because it was evidence of what they had done.

I'm not sure how representative of "most Jews" you are and since "most Jews" don't live in Israel, don't come from Israel and don't want to live in Israel, I don't see the relevance of what "most Jews" claim to believe.
Mark Elf (aka levi9909) | Homepage | 03.11.08 - 7:27 am | #

Jeffrey Levine - This is from your first comment: The Arabs don't want peace. That is obvious from the state of Gaza. The Arabs had a chance to start a peacful state but they know only violence and destruction.

This is from my immediate response to that: The disengagement plan is the preservative of the sequence principle. It is the bottle of formaldehyde within which you place the president's formula so that it will be preserved for a very lengthy period. The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that's necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians....

And when you freeze that process you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and you prevent a discussion about the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem . Effectively, this whole package that is called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed from our agenda indefinitely..

Here's the link to the Ha'aretz article.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pag...l? itemNo=485929

And now you're saying that Israel wouldn't allow the Palestinians a state anyway. So you admit, there couldn't have been a peaceful or indeed any kind of state in Gaza.

Thanks!
Mark Elf (aka levi9909) | Homepage | 03.11.08 - 7:39 am | #

Sigh.

Munch, munch, munch, (buurrp), go the Zionist trolls.
MFB | Homepage | 03.11.08 - 10:04 am | #

There's been some talk in Gaza about starting non-violent resistance to the occupation. The recent peaceful march of thousands to their prison walls was one example of this.

The problem with non-violent resistance is that you always come against this attitude: 'Let's not forget that Arabs and Muslims are great at using children and women as human shields. A human shield is a perfectly valid military target.' (J Levine)

The problem is that this isn't simply the attitude of some raving Zionist on a blog, but of the Israeli government.

Palestinians might risk the inevitable casualties that would come in such peaceful demonstrations, if they thought that the world's media would report what happened honestly. Understandably however, they're sceptical.

Hence the rockets.
David Landy | 03.11.08 - 12:22 pm | #

Jeffila, people used to say terrible things about the Jews, too! Can you believe it? I mean, how could anybody say anything bad about Jews, when there are Arabs living in the world?

So jeffy, jeffy, my boy, be nice to the Arabs. After they're gone it'll be our turn again. I can tell you are not used to a situation like that, and would find it distressing.

By the way, Jeffila, was the blood good at services last Saturday? Our's was yummy, from a little schicksa, no more than four years old. Fresh!
mooser42001 | Homepage | 03.11.08 - 4:03 pm | #

Whenever the Palestinians try Nonviolent Resistance the Israelis ignore it. Some years ago they WON a case in the International Court against the Apartheid Wall and the Israelis said that they would only accept the verdict if it confirmed their position. Basically it was, "Heads we win/Tails you lose."
Montag | 03.11.08 - 7:28 pm | #

Edited By Siteowner
Jeffrey Levine | 03.12.08 - 6:52 pm | #

Your racism's tiresome. If you have any points to make as opposed to racist and sectarian generalisations then go ahead.
Mark Elf (aka levi9909) | Homepage | 03.12.08 - 7:11 pm | #

I like the idea that colonial occupation and the denial of self determination can be defended on the basis that the people you've occupied and denied self determination to are your enemies. Presumably, as in Heller's Catch 22, negotiations will take the form of demanding that the Palestinians say that the Israeli's are their pals. "All you have to do is like us and say nice things about us". The officers say to Yossarian that all he has to do not to get sent on missions and thus save his life is "like us".

Despite being willing to do almost anything, this he could not do.
johng | 03.13.08 - 12:44 pm | #

You edit my comments and call them racist, which causes me to laugh considering your statements and the staments of you racist thumbsuckers.

I alsoi notice that you (Mark) did nothing about the comments from mppser42001!

Sounds like you only edit comments that are opposed to your warped view of the middle-east.

I love how you constantly denigrate the Jews by using the term Zionists. I have never seen the word so bandied about.

This site is laughable!!
Jeffrey Levine | 03.14.08 - 12:17 am | #

Mooser was joking. Your comments are the rantings of a judeo-nazi and mooser was mimicking your comments.
Mark Elf (aka levi9909) | Homepage | 03.14.08 - 8:44 am | #

Here's a thought. If Zionism and Judaism are inextricable, how come when a Diaspora Jew is put on trial for a crime the Israeli propaganda machine never says this is anti-Zionist? Shouldn't they be screaming that to put the person on trial or even to mention the crime in the media is a slander against Israel? Instead they dismiss it as an aberration, for which the individual alone should be held fully responsible according to the law. Yet when one criticizes Israel collective responsibility is always the name of the game, with the "Jewish State" being above the law. As Dana Carvey's "Church Lady" used to say on SNL: "How conveeeeenient."
Montag | 03.15.08 - 10:01 pm | #

I don't know what a "judeo-nazi" is, but if I wanted to find a Nazi, I would not need to look further than the owner of this blog!
Jeffrey Levine | 03.16.08 - 5:12 pm | #

Not me guv'nor. I hate racism, militarism, deification of ethnic statehood or any statehood for that matter. You never heard that expression, judeo-nazi? "Judeo-nazification" was an expression coined by Yesheyahu Leibowitz to describe the mentality taking hold in Israeli society after the June 1967 war. I'm guessing you're not familiar with Israeli society.

Even Israeli ministers have likened the behaviour of the Israeli army to that of the nazis. Leaving that guy's "shoah" remark aside, Tommy Lapid, one of the few holocaust survivors to grace the Israeli cabinet, was happy to compare the Israeli army to the nazis. You won't find anything in what I say or do to liken me to the nazis.

Can we be done with this bickering now Jeffrey?
Mark Elf (aka levi9909) | Homepage | 03.16.08 - 5:59 pm | #

Not me guv'nor. I hate racism, militarism, deification of ethnic statehood or any statehood for that matter. You never heard that expression, judeo-nazi? "Judeo-nazification" was an expression coined by Yesheyahu Leibowitz to describe the mentality taking hold in Israeli society after the June 1967 war. I'm guessing you're not familiar with Israeli society.

Even Israeli ministers have likened the behaviour of the Israeli army to that of the nazis. Leaving that guy's "shoah" remark aside, Tommy Lapid, one of the few holocaust survivors to grace the Israeli cabinet, was happy to compare the Israeli army to the nazis. You won't find anything in what I say or do to liken me to the nazis.

Can we be done with this bickering now Jeffrey?

Thanks
Mark Elf (aka levi9909) | Homepage | 03.16.08 - 6:11 pm | #