It was taken down from Fark.com. Please spread the word about this. I think this is insane the more I think about it.
peace,
lim.
or maybe it just maxed the servers there.
we'll see i guess.
they got something like 16,000 hits in a very short period.
wait a second. i have it still. i can post screen shots of it if need be.
peace,
lim.
woah...
mamma mia
The "Confederate" uniform actually looks like a Union uniform. As a general rule, Blue = Union, Gray = Confederate.
I have no idea what the crazy voodoo witch doctor or Indiana Jones guy are supposed to be, though.
You've made DailyKos with this. See here. That should help spread the news.
Re: Iran
Do we have the spare grunts? I know PNAC, the defense contractors, propaganda eaters, the likudniks, the media, the Republicans, and the Christian Supremacists all want a war with Iran, but if the Pentagon doesn't have the spare props for their stunt, I'm not sure it goes forward.
Re: Voodoo
It's totally unrelated, but it makes me think of Stan Goff's "Hideous Dream" about Haiti in 1994. They had these protestant fundamentalists do the S-2 (intel) on Haitians, and all they were warned about were Voodoo Priests blowing powders on them at night. That's military intelligence for you, totally stupid.
I just sent you an e-mail entitled "pics for your post" from my other e-mail addy. I cleaned up some of the dark pics for you. BTW, nice post.
Gathering of fetishists
Triumph of the Will
I can't speak for Kentucky, but here in southern Virginia, there wouldn't be anything at all strange about someone wearing a Confederate uniform on stage because that would appeal to a lot of the men in the audience just as much as a modern uniform and tales of Black Hawks would.
But no, I don't have any explanation for Indiana Jones...!
I just wanted to answer Drew. Many Confederate uniforms were, in fact, blue. They were so similar to Union uniforms that in many battles, Union troops allowed Confederates to advance, not knowing that they imperiled their own lives.
Visiting here from Buzzflash link.
Wow folks. Third Reich. Totally.
Bio: USAFSS veteran (1971-1975)
My thoughts on seeing your great post went back a few years. In fact, hundreds of years to the time of the Crusades. Just think, remove all the high-tech trappings and you would be viewing a scene in European churches calling on righteous "Christian soldiers" to march off to Jerusalem to free it from the infidel Muslims.
Of course, many of the Cru-sadists never returned. And stories abound about Cru-sadists brutally killing Muslim men, women and children...in the name of the Lord. And let's not forget the Children's Crusade, in which thousands of children marched off to free Jerusalem. Unfortunately many ended up being killed, or enslaved, or became the prey of pedophiles on their righteous journey for the Lord.
Sometimes I really wonder about the sanity of some so-called Christians...and especially the santiy of some so-called Christian leaders.
Jesus would weep.
Thanks for posting this. However, it's no surprise to me. I was raised in a Christian "cult" that "honored" the military in a very similar way. I was taught growing up that it was a man's duty to join the military and that a military career was one of the highest callings. I was also taught that I should always be under a man's authority. This was over 30 years ago, and these kinds of groups have grown in number, power, and influence. I know, since my parents are still invoved in one of these groups, that they are taught to basically worship GWB. It is considered "unchristian" to question this president, and recruiting for the military is done from the pulpit.
came fr finance disc group on this OT. thinking seriously of renouncing my us-citizenship. 2005 looks eerily similar to 1935 in germany..
Does anyone see any difference between this and "Islamic militants" meeting in a mosque?
Seems to me we should call in troops to dispell such cretinism.......
As a vet I am not surprised, yet still disturbed, at the obvious desecration of our places of worship and "peace".
I'm a vet from a military family, including graduates of West Point and Annapolis, former career officers and one current special ops officer home after two tours. This sort of thing surprises me only in its choreographed hoo-ah show biz spectacle. I guess here in the south we've seen such a conflation between Jesus and the military that the spirit behind this show is commonplace, even if the vaudeville aspect of it is not.
And that it is commonplace is what makes this so frightening. We live in scary times, friends. Very scary times.
"Desecration"? Uh, it's a Father-Son banquet, not an Army-sponsored church service. Besides, do we worship Jesus or the building?
What's surprising about the military recruiting where men are gathered?
Would you rather the military not recruit in places where they might have a better than average chance of finding men who have integrity and personal discipline? Would it be better to go to, say, maximum security prisons and recruit guys that we know are good at killin'?
Or maybe you'd rather do away with the need to recruit altogether by just bringing back the draft.
Derek, I just think it shows that there is little hope of finding recruits, as you say, outside of certain locales. I don't think this method is wise at all. And to be honest, yes, bring back the draft and lets see if any senator or congressmen's children will go to Iraq and elsewhere to fight. I think it's a brilliant idea in many ways. Of course, ideally we wouldn't want such a thing to happen. But this is plain wrong. Thank you for expressing your point of view here, though.
And for all the Veterans that have commented already on this post: Thank you for your service and your care. Just like I am proud to be Iraqi, I am proud to be American. It has been extremely difficult as of late to be both, though. We're on the wrong path with actions such as these. A very very wrong path. And I know many of you who served know this for a fact...and so I thank you for expressing that here.
I promise to respond to each of you individually to thank you personally.
Now
Now let's continue the interesting discourse here. I am thrilled to be able to interact with so many wondeful people because of this chance happening.
Much peace and grace,
Liminal
And of course...and I hope it goes without saying. Thank each and every one of you for responding thoughtfully.
Please, everybody respond...I'd love that very much.
cheers,
lim.
Dropped in from Buzzflash. As clergy, I do not see this as an abuse of government, but rather as an abuse of church facilities. It is a confusion of nationalism and faith, a descent into public religion that obscures the confession of the church.
It is a common mixture, however.
Peace,
mark
The voodoo guy, I think that is actually supposed to be a Beefeater.
welcome to Bush's Amerika, aka the Fourth Reich.
Did you vote for Bush in '04?
Then suck it up. This is what you voted for. He's got a mandate, remember?
I wouldn't even dream of trying to divine (pun intended) what events like this portend w/r/t any possible plans to invade Iran.
But as a lifelong resident of the South, the spawn of a long line of ministers (my mother's side) and a long line of soldiers (my father's), I can tell you that the South has a huge idolatry problem. It conflates God with the United States in general and the United States military in ways that make a mockery of both the First Amendment and the Second Commandment. This happens all over the country and has become especially common since 9/11, but it is an ongoing problem in the South. It is no coincidence that most of the most obnoxious televangelists (Swaggart, Bakker, Robertson, Falwell) are Southerners.
And I use the word "problem" intentionally. In addition to the problems this approach can create with respect to intelligent foreign and domestic policy, this kind of conflation makes it difficult, if not impossible, to obey Jesus' command to rende
(dang HaloScan) ... render unto God that which is God's and render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.
Thank you for posting this.
What troubles me most about this manipulative exhibition is that it encourages the men to view the value of their lives not in rational, but in irrational terms.
Spirituality is strangled in religion, and the religion seems to dictate that life is a gossamer something you can just throw away, whether it belongs to you or someone else.
The fact that something like this is couched in a father-son gathering indicates that the government is desperate for new soldiers and is almost as desperate to avoid a draft. But they have embarked on a course of imperial colonialism, and I think a draft is inevitable. I heard that in the 18th century, British military units would kidnap young boys and men off the streets, from orphanages and workhouses, wherever. It wasn't a draft, but it was the closest thing to it.
Here in America, where we're so much more sophisticated (read manipulative), the military believes as most conservatives & neocons do, that if you package it just so, people will
buy it.
The most powerful people in this country have made and are still trying to make bloody-fingered fools of us all.
I think your question, and your answer, to what would Jesus do in that situation is very apt. I can only imagine what the Prince of Peace makes off all this warmongering done in His name.
Something else that worries me, is that I have noticed a group called the young marines (ages 9-15) all dressed up military garb has been showing up recently at various public military holiday activities. Are we in the first phase of a new military nationalism.
Jesus is not a nationalist.
Jesus is not an American.
Even if one as a Christian does believe in the necessatiy of the military and war, it can only be as a sad, last resort, not a glorified joyful occurrence.
This is sick on so many levels. Conservative American Christians would do well to learn the historical lesson that Christianity is strongest and most alive when it is not part of the state, but is a witness and critic of the state, calling it to a more just, humane and honest way of being.
Wrapping yourself up in the state only pollutes the church.
This fits perfectly with the "14 Characteristics of Fascism" which should be read by all Americans that value freedom while Google still finds it.
Visit my URL to sign up for free daily cellphone updates this and other clear warning signs as we slide down this slippery slope
In the beginning when God created the heavens and 'Merica,
2 'Merica was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, ‘Let there be Dubya’; and there was Dubya.
4 And God saw that the Dubya was an oilman; and God separated the Dubya from reality.
5 God called the Dubya "Preznit", and reality he called Freedom. And there was even Liberty and there was Free Speech, the first day. But on the second day, Dubya determined that was all to change, unless...
somebody spoke up and said "isn't saying 'God bless 'Merica' not taking the whole world into consideration? I mean, it would be like saying 'God bless my pancreas,' and forgetting about the liver, heart, kidneys, adrenals et al?" To which Dubya responded, "can't help ya there, I slept through 'natomy. But let me tell you about the brain, colon and appendix - they're an axis of evil!"
This is further fueling the sick feelings in my gut that have been simmering for months. These are echoes of the Weimer Republic in Germany before the war. The mixing of religious fundamentalism and fervent nationalism. No wonder i don't sleep at night.
Thank you so much for sharing this, i think. It is sickening enough for those of us who have been questioning these things for a long time, but for someone like you, who hasn't yet become the skeptic we are, it has to be very painful. I think you are brave for bringing this to the public. BTW i linked here from BuzzFlash. Lots of eye opening links there. Again, thanks.
derek:
I suggest you check out the copy of the program for this "Men's Night Out". This is clearly not a case of a church being rented out when it's not used for worship. This event was obviously sponsored by the church, with the full approval and participation of the pastor.
Never forget that the Nazis were not at all hesitant to use the language of Christianity to support their perverse ideology. Judging from what I've seen here and elsewhere, this country is well on its way down that same road.
I should follow up with appropriate (and profuse) thanks to locomon and liminal for getting this information out. IMHO, the promotion of war, recruitment of soldiers, and the otherwise alienation of "non-zealots" - be it in the name of God, Jesus Christ, Allah, Shiva or Bruce Almighty (assume a representation of a benevolent deity), is truly an obvious transgression of not taking (a) Lord's name in vain. Christ had no bodyguards (body of Christ guards?), and more notably, no weapons (and he never "smote" anyone, either)... this type of militia recruitment could not be any farther from the messages of the Enlightened, and should be exposed for its blatant hipocrasy.
-EM
This is bizarre. It reminded me of the Veterans' Day observances we do here in Emporia (the Home of Veterans' Day, BTW), except there's no recruiting going on, and the memorial services are held in a municipal auditorium, not in churches. The church should not be in the business of glorifying war; Jesus isn't called Prince of Peace for nothing.
My guesses about the costumes:
The VooDoo guy is probably a American soldier circa 1812. I am not familiar with the fringe, but the top hat would suggest that's right. Marines also wore top hats in that period. Total guess: the red fringe probably identifies him as a member of an artillery unit.
As to Indiana Jones: his leggings and placement between Civil War guy and GI Joe would indicate he's a WWI doughboy. The hat is a mystery, but my guess is that it is an elisted man's field cap from the American Expeditionary Force. Second possibility: he's a Rough Rider from the Spanish American War.
The guy on the cross is obviously supposed to be a New England Minuteman on the lookout for Redcoats.
Obviously this disproves the existance of Christ.
If the Xian ''god'' we are brainwashed into fearing really existed, It would have wiped this abomination from the face of the earth faster than hitting Soddom with an earthquake.
This is like the Crusades in every aspect, except we now slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocents per year instead of spreading it out over decades.
Jesus, if you exist, go fuck yourself. No self-respecting ''god'' would allow Its followers to commit this sort of abomination. You are a fraud perpetrated by KKKarl rove.
dog is daed.
i congratulate you for having the courage to speak out when you see something that makes you uncomfortable. I'm very, very concerned about the confusion between faith and politics, and, although I'm not a Christian I'm pretty sure this isn't remotely what Jesus had in mind.
Stay vigilant, and speak out against this madness when you feel it's safe and productive.
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks you so much for the pictures and the posting. This is so creepy.
Do you notice that Jesus is depicted on the cross--the victim that the "Christian" soldiers are avenging. From the little we know of Jesus, whether literal son of God or radical philosopher, he was a pretty strong guy whose message not only didn't require military might, it abjured it.
If this is legit.... Have you forwarded this to any mainstream media outlets?
This is the best example of Symbolic Interaction I've ever read about outside of a theory textbook (moral convictions aside, looking at this event from an academic perspective).
Wow!
What scares me, having been raised in a Southern-Pentacostal-type household, is that I know that this is not an isolated event. The personnel putting on this show..... It's probably their regular job, day in & day out!
I've been looking at this all day (I linked in from The Apostropher this morning).
I see this and I think of two things:
1) People! Acting so surprised that the people that DON'T think like us, behave in this manner. Religion and church is way older than liberalism. That said...it's a terrible thing, what the majority of Christians believe in...because not all of them are psychos. But they are followers by definition, thus ripe for the plucking.
2) How many German youth had these types of reactions to pre-Nazi Germany? Do you think if they had known what was going to happen they'd have spoken up sooner, reacted more strongly?
Are we in the first phase of a new military nationalism.
Where have you been? No, we're at about phase 5 right now.
This is disturbing on so many levels, I'm not quite sure where to start. How about this link?
Very, very, very disturbing. Actually it's maybe more pathetic than anything.
To wit: I am from Louisiana and I'm pretty sure the "voodoo guy" was a poor attempt at a version of the uniform worn by the Acadian (Creole) soldiers who fought on both sides of the Civil War. But it is a really, really, bad attempt at one.
What is our miilitary coming to? When did people like this and General "My God-GOOD! Your God- BAD!" Boykin start predominating in the military, all branches. What the fuck happened to "Duty. Honor. Country." ? When did it become "Crusader. Torturer. Salesman."?
This just raises the obvious point: If we as a Republic are to stand, we cannot allow the military to be taken over by idiots who think God will save them from losing a leg in battle if they pray enough, or will reward them for shooting a 9-year-old with a helicopter-mounted cannon because said child doesn't worship the right way.
I say this to all of us on this thread: If you are a man betwtee
My grandma was a lifelong repub, and during the holidays I was going through some boxes and came across her 'Campaign Prayer book' circa late 1920's. It was a mixture of well-known prayers, as well as 'patriotic' anthems -- Star Spangled Banner, et al.
I had no idea until I looked through it just how intertwined gov't and religion had been.
I agree with the clergyman[Mark?] who said this is an abuse of church facilities, and if it were my church -- I'd scream long and loud about it.
Thanks for this post. We need more people spreading the truth about this abomination. When I saw those rifles in a place of worship, I thought I was seeing the abomination of desolation right before my eyes! The end is here, Jesus is on His way now!
You guys are really sad. With all the talking up your doing it's like they ate children right then and there. Get a grip, it's a church, and it's being used by people. Woah!
OMGZ, you are Iraqi-American and you were stuck in the middle of that for however long? I would have been worrying for my life.
This probably isn't new. It probably happened during other wars. America has always been a very militant/religious nation. I can't say if it's getting worse cause I wasn't there before, but I don't like what is happening. It goes against the grain of everything I understand the constitution to be about.
Blessed be, Liminal.
Love,
Hanna
Ten commandments? You shall not kill?
Hmm. I visited a catholic church and in
the mass the priest justified the killing.
You never get any answer from the
church officials. But obviously they like
their sheeps be in a miserable state.
People who laugh and have fun don't
go to church or sacrifice themselves in
the military.
This sort of activity is a church facility is undeerstandible to me. The demographic of the population that would tend to attend this is desirable unlike many of those that commented here. Did you know that the FBI was fishing for Latter Day Saint recruits? The people that are desired as employees from the LDS have a certain ethic that lends itself well to the dicipline of upholding the standards of te FBI. So it is no big surprise that the military would use the church facility to gather together a group of men to introduce them to the idea of serving in the ranks of the military. To the idea that "this is very significant", I agree. When those airplanes struck on 9/11 a war was declare, not so much upon you and I but more so upon our way of life. I feel that this sort of "recruiting drive" is not only welcome but needed. The things that make us a target to terrorist is the values that we as a nation share. Freedom is a value that is worth fighting for. For those tha
are bothered by this activty you have the freedom to not attend. that freedom is not afforded to those living under the rule of the nations that harbor those terrorists. You also have the freedom to abandon your own values. Plane still service locations like Somalia, Syria, North Korea, indonesia, etc Go buy a ticket
Those of you who are surprised by this must have never lived in the South. When I lived in Texas I saw military rallys in church, book burnings, bibles distributed in schools... In fact, I went to a public school and we had a monthly assembly with a christian rock band.
I complained to the superintendant (I was 13 at the time) and our house got egged. I had a brick thrown at my head from a pickup truck.
I respect the right for anyone to practice their religion and I respect the right for people to practice blind patriotism. Mix them, however, and I start to have problems.
I guess the sick feeling I had the day after the election hads basis after all...
Maybe its because im from the UK and am also in no way religious, but Im just bemused.
Thanks for posting this - I can't really add anything to what's already been said, but I sincerely appreciate your putting up this guy's story & pictures. What an amazingly horrifying story. Shame on whoever thought this sort of exploitation and guilt-riddled sales pitch would be a good idea.
Liminal, thanks for sharing this. Linked from "American Street. I agree with Oracle that this thing has been going on for some time, and I don't see it going away any time soon. Jesus and the peacemakers have always been in the minority and always will be. I am delighted and hopeful that more and more of our service members, who are the most in harm's way, are speaking up and out. Unfortunately I think the argument will only become more convincing when many more of them have died, even though one death is already too many.
Blessed are the peacemakers, and may we open at least one heart today.
f
I linked from American Street also. Scary, but, sadly, not unexpected. Rational people looking at our attack on and occupation of Iraq find it unjustified (unless you believe that a grab for oil is justified). Our goverment is setting up the country for a massive resource war in the Middle East, disguising it in the cloak of a culture/religion clash. We are to become Christian Soldiers marching to overcome the heathen Muslims and show them the one true savior. Oh, and we will spread freedom and democracy while we do it. Jesus wept!
Fogueira,
I was brought up in the military, father fought in WWII. It took a long time for me to see beyond "Duty, Honor, Country." to a point of view that included the possibility of goodwill throughout the world based on respect and cooperation, and a clear choice whether I would be on the side of those who believed that Jesus and the peacemakers would always be in the minority or moving over to that minority with hope and determination that the day will come when this is no longer true. If you believe in the "always" you have already joined the enemy thinkers and the transformation that needs to happen will lose your good energy. The future is us, and what we make of it. Thanks to everybody for understanding this.
The mix is certainly odd, no matter if it passes for normal in some placess.
Get this: I honor Jesus. I support our troops. But I will not worship our troops, nor will I trust people who do.
I will not be lukewarm in my defiance of such imbecility. This comes from the same folks who refuse to believe evolution occurs. And in places like this, it looks like it doesn't. Apes rule there. Toss them bananas and save your hosannahs.
I agree with all of the comments regarding the frightening similarities with the Third Reich and the fascism of the current administration. No one has yet brought up the fact that churches enjoy tax exempt status which they jeopardize when they cross the line into politics. There are several churches in various parts of the country currently under investigation for purportedly advocating voting one way or another in the recent sham election. Wonder if the IRS would be interested in this?
liminal, Thanks for posting this. These right wing "christians" (so-called) claim that Jesus will send you to hell if you smoke, drink, or chew or go with girls that do--mere vices. What they need is a "Men's Night Out" with me--the Libertarian Billy Graham--to teach them about the what Jesus is going to do to them for their crimes!
At my revival meeting, I will thunder from the pulpit about how at the Final Judgement they will be taught a real lesson in what it means to take responsibility for the damage they've done to the victims of their crimes.
At my tent meeting, before my alter call, in true right wing evangelical style, I will throw in some quotes from Thomas Jefferson about the bill of rights, the founding fathers, and how they LOATHED professional government armies:
"a [federal] bill of rights [must] secure freedom in religion, freedom of the press, [and] freedom from a permanent military..." (Thomas Jefferson, March 13, 1789)
"[a federal Bill of Rights
2 more quotes from Jefferson:
"[a federal Bill of Rights must] provide clearly...for freedom of religion, freedom of the press, [and] protection against standing armies.." (Thomas Jefferson, December 20, 1787)
"It seems generally understood that [a federal Bill of Rights] should go to Juries, Habeas corpus, [and] Standing Armies..." (Thomas Jefferson, July 31, 1788
-
liminal, please don't take this too wrong but as a Christian, Republican war supporter.....who did you vote for?
Just wonderin'....ain't it a bit late for alarmed Bush voters to feel uneasy or have regrets?
Bush voters were being told the truth all along....why are they just now waking up?
Uneasy Bush voters have full culpability for what they have done to America.
damn this is all zajebao! it is like when the cetniks started paradeing around the bones of poor old King Lazar, it is like the nazis and their rallies.
it is sick.
it's one thing to recruit, there's plenty of public space to recruit, and let them go for it if they want to, but not in church, this here is blasphemy.
btw I am a Catholic, and I have immense respect for the Chrisitian communities in the Middle East.
One thing about this whole Mess-O-Rama in Iraq is that it is endangering a Christian community which has existed since the earliest days of the Christian faith.
I am pissed off with all the Christians who will not talk about this issue.
I am pissed off that I am almost the only one that even thinks about it in my near vicinity!
I hit the fundametalists, the Christian Talibans around me with this because they need their noses rubbed in this govno.
The pictures that were posted indicate that the US is probably in a proto fascist situation. This development springs from the decline of US imperialism vis a vis its rivals (EU, Japan, China) and is an effort by the US ruling class (Republicans and Democrats) to desperately cling on to its imperialist privilege of plunder and loot from the rest of the world which is currently facilitated by the dollar standard (as world/oil currency) that is enforced by brutal military power. In this, seizing the oil resources (lifeblood of modern industrial civilisation) of the planet is the key since only in that way can US imperialism, which is unable to compete with its rivals technologically and economically, can survive and maintain its death grip on the rest of the world.
Therefore, there are two wars: (1) External - against the poor people of the third world in which US imperialism, if need be, will exterminate millions of human beings, who have become superfluous to the capital accumulati
to the capital accumulation process and whose land and resources it wants. The latest example is Iraq where c lose to 1.5 million lives have been terminated from 1991 onwards with utter destruction of the country whose land and water have been poisioned for thousands of years by the use of depleted uranium munitions by the Anglo-American invaders amongst other horrific war crimes. (2) Internal - against the working people living within the US borders. In this, the ruling class and its propaganda organs will increasingly use lies, deceit, religious demogoguery, and draconian and repressive state legislation and other mind/social control techniques in order to frighten, hoodwink and terrorize the masses and enlist them in its project of world domination. Without such internal support, their project will fail. This demands a militarisation of major aspects of the internal society
The natural logic of the capital accumulation process (capitalism) is the homeland security state. Benit
Benito Mussolini, defined fascism as 'estato corporativo', the corporatist state in which corporate power and state power has merged. This merger process is far advaned within the US.
The pictures reveal the external forms of apperance of the internal drive towards fascism (which will be different from its 1930s predecesors - in someways more dangerous) - a process which ultimately is driven by faultlines in the eonomic structure of capitalism.
Although as a christian I find this disturbing, I don't necessarily see this as a sign of impending fascism. Yes, we're seeing militarism and ultra-patriotism at incredible levels, but we saw the same thing during WW II, when Japanese-Americans were interred for no specific crimes, and orchestras refused to play Strauss or Beethoven. Luckily there are enough rational people in this country that I think we will pull out of the downward spiral of fascism before it's too late.
For the record, I support the troops but don't support the war, and didn't vote for W.
Someone said upthread: Did you know that the FBI was fishing for Latter Day Saint recruits? The people that are desired as employees from the LDS have a certain ethic that lends itself well to the dicipline of upholding the standards of te FBI. So it is no big surprise that the military would use the church facility to gather together a group of men to introduce them to the idea of serving in the ranks of the military.
While the FBI might like us LDS folks because we have never touched alcohol or drugs and we happen to know foreign languages, our church _does not_ allow for any sort of government recruiting in the churches for anything -- political parties, the military, various government services, etc. I think it is odd and interesting that a church which produces people like Orrin Hatch can also produce people like Harry Reid. It sickens me to no end to see this sort of mixing of church and state and unless that church pays taxes it's also very illegal. I hope cooler heads
...prevail, but I am beginning to suspect otherwise. Thanks for this post, it reminds me of what exactly I am fighting for in the first place.
Porter Memorial has also been quite high-profile on the Iraq missionary scene. I've a few words on the topic on my site.
Hello everybody...if you're still there. I've been having a bit of a rough time lately...sorry for not coming back sooner.
Wow. The response has trebled. I was just glancing at the comments I had not read and there seems to be some interesting comments. Still, I look forward to responding to some of them. Right now I have to return to some pressing matters.
Please notice I put up a low-bandwidth version of the post. It's right here. I hope that helps those of you with dial-up or just annoyed by the image sizes. Of course, I realize it's not the *original* post, but it might help if you want to spread the word around to certain people.
And just to clear up one reader's confusion about me being "locomono"...I'm not. I'm not Republican, but my family is indeed Christian. But we're Assyrian Orthodox Christians from IRAQ. Yep, I'm an Iraqi. I'm also A
Yep, I'm an Iraqi. I'm also American. So, life's a bit complicated. If you want to know more about me, I urge you to read this blog, the agora, and check out iraq blog count for other iraqi voices. Anyway, I didn't like either of the main candidates, but I voted for Kerry because I hoped we could vote Bush out of office. That obviously didn't happen.
Sorry, I gotta go now. Please take care.
Bye,
Liminal
Looks like Jeffie Boy has been busy spreadin the gospel. He even made it to Congress!
Yea....Political freedom and free speech are terrible, aren't they? Especially when Liberals don't agree with it....
You silly twit. There is nothing wrong with honoring the Military at a "Mens night out".
My father was at Pearl Harbor and My husband in Vietnam during Tet. Both think this is the creepiest damn sh** they have ever seen. The ones who fall for this are the same ones who were indetured servants on their lord's plantation. They don't read; they don't think.
Reminds me of the slogan on the German army's belt buckles:
"Gott Mitt Uns"-- "God is with us"
The rightwingers really worship idols of Conformity and Authority.
To quote Woody Allen, "If Jesus were to come back and see what is being done in his name, he'd never be able to stop puking."
Oops, I meant to say the slogan on Nazi Germany's army belt buckles.
The Islamo-Fascist asks...
"What is the difference between Muslims trying to defend their homeland by recruiting from mosques and Christians trying to defend their homeland by recruiting from churches?"
This is easy to answer. We can recruit alld ay long, but we do not endorse terror, the killing of innocent non-combatants, nor do Christians wage battle from within the church. Unlike the hypocritical Islamo-Fascists, we Christians consider the church a sanctuary for all, a place of peace, God's house. Islamo-Fascists see the mosque as a place to wage war, a place to oppress women, a place to mouth lies, and a place to use to mount terror attacks.
Next question: "...whatever happened to the separation of church and state..."
Also easy to answer. No such thing exists. Separation of church and state is a fantasy in the mind of liberals. Nowhere in our founding and governing documents does it say anything about separation of church and state, nowhere. What it does say is
the state will not sponsor a religion, there will not be a state religion, and there isn't. We are the most tolerant nation in the world towards other religions, hence even allowing the fascist enemy Islam, to operate within our borders. Wake up to truth fool.
Next: This picture apparently shows banners of the various branches of American Armed Forces hanging from the pews.
NO, they are flags of each branch of the military. We Christians support our troops who are protecting us from our enemy, you!
Next:"So, that's kinda weird that it's at a church, but whatever. Churches are relatively cheap to rent out during the week." ["And this is coming from an old school Iraqi Assyrian Orthodox Christian."]
This person thinks he is a christian, but he is not. That is obvious from this statement. NO Christian would denigrate the church with a statement like this.
Next:It's kind of odd that there are three squad cars just to stop traffic and let us all in, but you know
what they say, "when enough people gather together in harmony, the fuzz come to break it up"
What a stupid thing to say. The police were there for safety. Traffid on Nicholasville Road in that area is well known to move in exeess of 75MPH and there is no light there. This person has issues. This person is a leftist fascist anarchist obviously. What a waste.
"Next:There's a humvey and black hawk helicopter sitting outside with corresponding units, half the people that are walking in with us are wearing service shirts. Whether air force, army, marines, coastguard, ambulance driver or fireman, all these guys get a check from Uncle Sam. Ok, I don't have any problems with men in uniform, unless I'm drunk outside and they're cops."
Again, obviously not a Christian speaking here. This guy is either knowingly lying or is ignorant of what a Christian is. Well, he is definitely ignorant of what a Christian is.
Next:"We tell old war stories full of gore and glory and time
we almost bought the farm, as we eat. Without any of that kind of story of my own I told him about a PI named John Landrith killing three armed kidnappers with a rusty old meat cleaver to save a seven year old. It's well received in the basement of a church while we eat our Oreo minis."
This guy is obviously lying. Real warriors do not talk of the gore of war, only those who were never there do that. This guy is a liar, plain and simple, no doubt about it. I am sure of it. This statement is to paint Christians as militant murderers who love it. This guy is so shallow it isn't funny, he isn't even a GOOD liar. Anybody who ahs been there will back me up on this. Guaranteed!
Next:"I realize something is very ********ed up, and start taking pictures."
Again, obviously not a Christian.
Next:"What you’re looking at is government mesh thrown over the steps to the balcony, and a huge flag covering up all but the tip of a huge cross in the first picture, and the huge amou
amount of people sitting below various armed forces banners in the second."
Here is what this fool anarchist doesn't understand. In America, WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT! In Nazi Germany, fascists similar to the Islamo-fascists of today, were the government, not the people.. This guy obviously knows nothing about being an American or a Christian. I doubt that he is even a citizen. If he is, he does not deserve to be. He is the enemy within and should be removed. You see, the flag is not the government's flag, like it is in a fascist society this guy is so used to, the flag is the people's flag. Period, end of argument!
Next:"Right after when the shity Rockapella group sang the national anthem a couple people shouted “Amen!” at the end. I started to get sick right then."
Again, this guy is NOT a Christian. He might think he is, but he isn't. He is certainly ignorant of history as AMerica is a Christian nation founded upon Christian principles, but this fool is too dumbed dow
dumbed down by a liberal education system, liberal media, and communist entertainment industry to know it. The truth wil lset him free from his hate for America if he chooses to learn it, but I can see that he won't. He is lost in doing the devil's work.
Next:"I know it’s ridiculously bad taste but yes, that really is Jesus on the cross in the first picture…in behind our troops."
Again, this guy is NOT a Christian. If he really thinks he is, he is lost. He should read and study the book, not a subverted translation, but the real book. Now, only a non-Christian sees Jesus on the crucifix as bad taste. You see, a Christian understands that Jesus shed His blood on Cavalry for our sins, even the sins of this hateful anti-Christian, anti-American. We see the blood as a blessing that we do not deserve, but that a loving God, the only God, the Lord, saw fit to bless us with. We are blessed and I pray that this lost sinner gain the salvation we have. It is there for everyone, and i
and it is free and clear. I pity this lost person, but I will not back down from him, for he is the enemy within, and God is clear on how we treat our enemies when they attack. We lopve them and pray for them until they attack, and then we have a responsibility.
This is incredibly fu**ed up, but so believable.
There is one word for this (besides - in a religious sense - an "abomination"):
FASCISM
most of you are sick!
Excellent article, limino. I came to this post via the blog Rigorous Intuition. No doubt this has been going on for many years, yet seems to be intensifying post 9-11. The truth is that nationalism and patriotism is used by the powers-that-be to keep people from using critical thought. There's no time to question the policies of the gov. when you're busy chanting USA! USA! or singing God Bless America. BTW, if a Christian church allows the military to hold functions, then it does support the actions of said military, and thus, supports the killings of thousands of non-combatants. How then can someone call civilians in Iraq Islamo-fascists? Check out http://baghdadburning.blogspot.com for an introduction in Iraqi life.
Thanks for posting this limino. The author was concerned that word of this might not get out since it was pulled from fark.com. I've got some good news, I'm a Canadian who followed a link from a lefty British media analisys website. Word is getting around -- fast.
Mario, If you're at all concerned about the eternal destiny of your soul, I suggest that you spend a "Men's Night Out" at a Libertarian Billy Graham tent revival meeting. There you will find out that if you wait until the Final Judgement, its going to be too late! You had better repent to the victims of your crimes now...before its TOO LATE!
You may think you can hide in a voting booth and send an illegal standing army to mass murder in the name of geo-politics, but on Judgement Day, you're going to learn a lesson in what it means to take responsibility for your crimes.
You've got two choices: 1) Go to the families of the 100,000 Iraqis that you've helped murder, ask them to forgive you, and tell them that you want to REPENT--i.e., REPAY them for their losses. Or 2) Go on your merry way continuing to support the US standing armies (declared illegal by all of US state and federal bills of rights) all the way to Judgement Day. But then it will be TOO LATE!
-
Jayzus H. Murphy! What are you still doing living in Kentucky? Run for your lives! Can't you see that you are surrounded by brain-washed zombies? This surely crosses all kinds of lines of appropriate use of church facilities.
Hell in a handbasket I tells ya...
Wow, this was a great post. I am a cadet at the Military Academy and myself a Christian, but, the one thing that has gotten me into more arguments with my friends and others is the fact that seeing my faith used as a ploy to gain subservience or used as a tool has cheapened my faith and used it for purposes that have nothing to do with Jesus. We just finished recording a DVD for a Christian media company where the Cadet Glee Club was in the Cadet Chapel singing patriotic/christian songs with lyrics like, 'Our God will overcome" and "the sword shall not rest in my hand till we have bilt Jerusalem here"...and, while I realize many of the songs were very historic and important in terms of national history, it seems amazingly innapropriate to intertwine my faith and my military service in a time where the President is proclaiming we are in a 'crusade' and half the world already views the war we are in, right or wrong, as a war or religion and culture. It's good to see there are o
Hi everybody,
I'm sorry if I've been slow to respond. The comments have overwhelmed me. I hope to get to everybody asap. I really hope you will let people know about this post. I think it's important to do some self-reflection about what we see in the images and in locomono's concerned words. Thank you for visiting. Please come back.
Liminal
I got here via connexions(http://theconnexion.net/wp), which is the blog of a progressive Methodist minister in Wales. I am also a Methodist, albeit one from Texas, and I too am disgusted by this- though not surprised. Living in Texas, one gets used to tolerating the weird-ass things Baptists do. 
I’ll keep reading your blog- you’re both Iraqi and Orthodox, so I bet you have an interesting perspective on the world. You also directed me to a new anime forum. ^___^
I was referred here from soldiers for the truth (sftt.com), the forum associated with David Hackworth -- Hackworth.com -- who writes a syndicated weekly column called "Defending America" that focuses on our troops.
I grew up in the Jewish suburbs of New Haven, CT in the 1960's. Several times the boy scout troop that met in the big local synagogue, together with the Jewish War Veterans chapter producced events similar to what you have shown here.
What's diffferent about this event held in a church, versus what I attended in a synagogue is the large scale, the production values, the actual presence of weapons of war, and the performers speaking from the alter in the front, rather than the auditorium stage, likely to be on the other side of the large room you photographed. Having peformers speaking dirctly from the pulpit definitely seems inappropriate.
Guns inside the church, for whatever the reason, are just wong. The preacher of that church, the president, and the en
tire board owe an apology to the membership.
This person is a leftist fascist anarchist obviously.
Dear Mario,
It's impoosible by definition to be both fascist and anarchist at the same time. Just wanted to clear that up for you pal!
Love,
Mike
Mario, you should also look at the definitions of fascist and leftist. Sadly, mario is an example of some of the people I met while living in Louisville, KY. IMO people like this haven't gotten past the old testement into the new. Love thy enemy as thy self.
I just have to say this was a wonderful article. I got to it from www.oldamericancentury.org
I actually read it a while ago, at least an abridged version, it's just the link was broken so I couldn't read the entire excerpt.
And Mario, you made me laugh. Have you read the true bible, and not some silly translation? And, which version have you read? I only ask this because if you're not aware, it's been centuries since it has been written. In that time, countless versions of it have been written. It's a book many have viewed as open to interpretation, or that an interpreter has made a mistake on. And, sorry, if any of this is completely false. I really am, since I'm still studying everything as much as I can.
Again, this guy is NOT a Christian. He might think he is, but he isn't. He is certainly ignorant of history as AMerica is a Christian nation founded upon Christian principles, but this fool is too dumbed down by a liberal education system, lib
... dumbed down by a liberal education system, liberal media, and communist entertainment industry to know it. The truth wil lset him free from his hate for America if he chooses to learn it, but I can see that he won't. He is lost in doing the devil's work.
I just have to say that liberalness tends to promote free thinking and open-mindedness. And those tend to lead to one being rather educated. See, if you are told what to believe and believe it without researching it, or any kind of blind belief...well, actually, that's just stupid. I respect those Christians, and anyone who believes in any religion, as long as they do the research. What I can't stand is the people who believe blindly. You should also provide more backup, especially for your accusations.
I'd like to add that liminal probably isn't anti-Christian, or the claim of being a Christian wouldn't stand. If you don't know, the definition of anti-christian is "opposed to the Christian religion."
An
And on a personal note, I'd just like to say that you don't have to be anti-American to find that all offensive. If you think about it, it's actually very American to question why certain things were in that church that shouldn't be.
Real warriors do not talk of the gore of war
"Erich Maria Remarque (1898-1970) was himself in combat during World War I, and was wounded five times, the last time very severly."
Now, I quoted the "About the Author" in the back of All Quiet on the Western Front. If you've ever read it, you've read the horrible atrocities of war, and you've read them as they have been written by someone who was in it.
Of course, my faith that Mario will read all of this is very low. But, it stands, for those of you who wish to read it.
There's probably more I could have responded to, but it's really late.
Lastly, thank you very much, liminal, for putting this post in a more reliable spot.
By the way, here's a couple o
By the way, here's some quotes for the road:
"Freedom of speech and freedom of action are meaningless without freedom to think. And there is no freedom of thought without doubt"
--Bergen Evans
"The USA was founded in the name of democracy, equality and individual freedom, but is failing to deliver the fundamental promise of protecting rights for all"
--Amnesty International, 19 Jan 2001
"Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right."
--Mahatma Gandhi
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
--Benjamin Franklin
"Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons. "
--Bertrand Russell
And I'm sorry, but I couldn't help myself.
Anyone who DOESN'T see a problem with this is insane--ESPECIALLY if they are Christian. They don't see the long term cost to mingling state patriotism with religious doctrine. For that to be the case, they have to ignore years of world history. Hitler made a hybrid state religion that was mixed with Christianity, Paganism, and Secular Ideals like nationalism. Thanks for posting this. YOU are a real journalist---giving us a true slice of life.
The repetitive posts of "Mario" are also insane. He doesn't realize he is an idolater.
Thanks to Adam especially for his comment.
"Anyone who DOESN'T see a problem with this is insane--ESPECIALLY if they are Christian"
Then tell the Church that sponsored it that. The Military had nothing to do with it. an IRR Captain Chaplain is acting as a private citizen invited to speak. There is no mention anywhere of the presence of military recruiters or any direct Military involvment in this program.
The insanity is the idiots who rush to blame the Government for the actions of a private church.
Items loaned or surplus donated for display can be done for anyone who asks by the National Guard which By the Way is a State Entity not Federal unless specifically activated under title 10 of the US Code...
Thanks for a good laugh you chicken littles crack me up.
Jim-
Apparently you didn't bother to look at the pictures that are included, which show a recruiting table for the military.
Hi. Thanks, lim; posting this stuff is SO crucial if our country is to have a fighting chance to remain a genuine democracy.
Jim--- beware your complacency. You might be right about the pastor doing this as a private citizen, but history shows repeatedly that the APPEARANCE of collusion between organized religion and the military might of the State frequently reflects an EXISTING fanaticism that tolerates little opposition to its designs. Such a combination almost always rules with an iron fist, to the great detriment of real freedom.
I came here from Alternet.
Oh, and I forgot to add... Everyone should read (or reread) Margaret Atwood's "A Handmaid's Tale" right about now... This regime seems bent on crafting a country much like the "republic of Gilead" her book's about...
This is probably the worst post I have read in some time. You have taken a meeting held by a church men's group honoring our military and turned it into a Neo Nazi meeting. What crap!! You have twisted a simple meeting into something else so that it fits you warped view of this administration and it's policies.
Sigh. I didn't cry when W was re-elected, although I was dumbstruck. But this, this actually choked me up.
What happened to our Information Age?
Last weekend I went to the movies and I couldn't beleive my eyes- there was a trailer for a "Crusade" movie. Who is our Goebbels? Becasue we've already had our Riechstag Fire.
I fear the future...
What ever happened to separation of Church and State? This is obscene, bringing guns into the church, bringing military into the church for military functions. How low will our leaders go?
Get them out, tell them your mind!!
The government dosns't care about our kids.
Salaam wa Leikum
Mud
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I just wanted to take a moment to take issue with the phrase "protecting our way of life". Anyone who says that without irony obviously isn't unemployed, poor, and hungry (as I am). There's lots of things about "our way of life" that need to be rethought, imporved, changed or done away with.
...and I liked the comment about the "communist entertainment industry", a worse example of gross capitalism there never was.
as for mixing the church with things, just try and get a free meal without a sermon at a soup kitchen... I suppose I could always take the poor man's option and join the army...
peace, all
Hey anon, there are actually many places that will give you a "free meal" without a sermon but then, I do live in minnesota and we are far less religiously zealot as many other places are.
On the original theme, this is truly scary. I have never seen such a thing as this but to know it is not only going on but being so well recieved is just bad. The far religious right will drive a complete wedge in this country and succeed in it's destruction in a way the Moslem terrorists could only hope for.
Sad. Sad. Sad. I honestly cannot say anything else.
Dumbstruck. Not just at the event, but at the zombies who have posted here that this is an expression of freedom.
I remember right after 9/11 that the President said that we would not let the terrorists win. We very clearly have. We have played right into their hands. We, as a nation, are reacting like a wounded animal.
I had fostered this naive belief that we were rational beings, but I guess if the threat seems big enough, we'll just revert right back.
This effect is multiplied many times over by the immense marketing opportunities available. What this reminds me of most of all is an Amway function.
Don't forget--if you see it on TV, someone paid big bucks for it to be there. If you see it repeated on TV, it's either generating money or expected to generate money over time.
Wow. That very closely mirrors my experience at my parents' church last July 4th. It was perhaps the most idolatrous and self-worshiping display of civil religion I've ever seen in my entire life. At least they didn't sing Neil Diamond's "Coming to America" at this particular church!
Peace Liminal(?)
I am requesting permission to use the Jesus on the flag picture for our website :
http://www.theseventhcross.org/
It would make the perfect banner and we would give you credit under whatever name you want it.
Peace again
granny
THIS IS ALL FABRICATED GARBAGE. This guy who supposedly was there is no Chirstian judging from his languange and doesn't know what he is talking about.
You're missing the point. The purpose of having a military themed event was not to worship the military in any way. It was simply a way to draw men to the church so that the Gospel could be presented to them. Which is exactly what Strueker did.
Also, the voodoo looking guy is from the War of 1812. Indiana Jones is from the Spanish American War. Yes those are actually what the uniforms looked like.
Lastly, never in the constitution is the separation of church and state ever mentioned. The first amendment merely prohibits the governemt from establishing a state church i.e. The Church of England. It does not limit what churches can do in regard politics, so, in no way can this event be deemed illegal and/or unconstitutional.
As a born-again evangelical Christian of 34 years, I find this church gathering repugnant. While the author may or may not be a Christian, what he says about Jesus clearing the temple is accurate. The fact that the flag covered the cross is also very relevant as in the Old Testament, I believe it was King David who drew considerable ire from the Lord God for putting his flag in the Holy Place. Please wake up fellow Christians. Fascism is NOT God's will!
While I can understand some of the concerns and the problems that people have with this patriotic service at this church, I would like to make some comments in defence of fundamental Christians. Most of us are not facists looking to use the military to rid the world of religious infidels, etc. We do not support killing people in the name of Jesus. However, I can say that in general I love my country and am very patriotic. At our church (a baptist church in the south) we try to have a patriotic emphasis on Memorial Day, the 4th of July, and Veterans Day and honor the men and women who have served our country in the armed forces. Would we ever have recruitment literature or recruiters on hand for such a service, absolutely not! But I don't think that there is a problem with Christians being patriotic and honoring our veterans. In the Bible we are instructed to be good citizens and obey those in authority over us as long as it does not conflict with what God has commanded us to do or be. I think someone mentioned the song, Onward Christian Soldiers, as a Minister of Music, I would like to comment on that. Our warfare is not physical but of a spiritual nature. The Bible says that we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against supernatural forces - yes, Satan and his demonic forces. (I know, some of you are rolling your eyes already). When we talk about warfare, even in this song, we are not talking about physical war with guns and tanks and missiles, etc, we are talking about the spiritual warfare that we are engaged in. This is the battle that we ask Jesus to lead us in because he as already fought the battle and won. When He died on the cross and was resurrected from the dead, he soundly defeated Satan. You may ask then why do we have to keep on fighting the battle? Because as humans we are still subject to Satan's attacks - trials and temptations. However, when we trust in the power that Jesus gives, we can overcome day by day. I know, you want to send the men in white suits to find me and give me a nice padded room to live in. But I think that if you could talk to a lot of people who call themselves conservative Christians you will find that we are not extremist. That we are decent people who love our country and don't mind showing it once and awhile. Could the church in this example maybe have been more upfront in what they were doing instead of possibly disguising it as a father and son event? Probably. The churches I have been involved with when we have a men's night out or men's banquet we usually try to do something more along the lines of hunting/fishing/outdoors theme. Anyway, I'm not mad or upset or deeply hurt by any of the comments. I just thought I'd throw in my perspective. Thanks.
I don't think anyone that thinks this is true would be dumb enough to comment about it here. That would be begging to be held w/o charges for an indefinate period of time. The fact that I'm writing this proves that I'm not as smart as I'd like to think I am...
If this story is true, and not that I would be surprised if it were, it confirms that these tendencies towards violence and aggression are no different than any radicalist Muslim conviction.
The majority of people on this planet want peace. So it's up to us as individuals in a society to promote it and to push for it.
Hate mongering is so easy it's sinful.
Oh build a bridge and get over it.
your story is very disconcerting. Though I think we're in different camps ideologically I support your feelings. This might be an ideal time for you to re-evaluate your position as a Republican, and consider giving more serious thought to the Libertarian Party. We all know the Democratic party is the party of the past. The Republicans have broken every small government promise they claim to stand for. Maybe you should look into the Libertarian Party.
I needed the laugh thanks so much
maybe in time you will be able to tell who is a marine and who is army
Blogs :o)
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