Seems like a normal function to me, we have been having the exact same type of functions for years in the South West. Sometimes it is at a church, or where ever space is available.
As far as invading Iran, Syria, or anywhere else. Time will tell, but the world is not going to let "the bomb" be available to Islamic terrorisst or countries that help them.
Sorry, but I don't understand your concern.
Papa Ray
West Texas
USA
papa ray: i think the fact that thatere are loads of folks like you who don't think it's wrong is what is wrong.
to the author of the blog: you know, at least when the germans did this you could get a decent beer...
You say, "Holy ####, it is fascist picture story time." Yep, I believe you are an islamo-fascist telling a story with pictures. You sure got that right. That is all you got right.
Amen Papa Ray. This is nothing but an Islamo-fascist ranting against Christianity and our great Christian Nation, which incidentally, is the light of Liberty for the rest of the world. Amazing that they speak against it, don't you think?
We are the last bastion of true Liberty, yet they tear it down in the name of democracy. Democracy is our demise. We are a Constitutional Republic, a Christian Constitutional Republic, like it or not. A republic is rule by law while a democracy is nothing more than mob rule which always leads to tyranny, which we are ovserving right now. Personally, I hope that Christian churches worldwide pick up the "standard" and take down the enemy. Let the games begin, heh heh heh.
"So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of t
"So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him." --Isaiah 59:19
Mario - we are a Constitutional Republic. We are not a Christian Constitutional Republic. You may come after me - and the author of the original post, and anyone else - with slurs of Islamo-fascism, and even with a gun. But you'll still be wrong. And you'll still be a reactionary crypto-fascist thug.
You don't hang ANYTHING over the crucifix. It is the focus, not an inconvenient bit of wall ornament.
The U. S. form of govornment is not particularly relevant to this - there are no laws apparently being broken, this does not appear to be an official govornment function.
This is a matter of aesthetics, more than anything. And it is very, very ugly.
I find this use of the church rather disgusting. IMO it is desecrating the God they claim to worship.
I am not even religuous and it bothers me. God is supposed to be bigger than any one single nation, how dare they utilize Him!
Seems to me that calling this a Men's Night Out, gearing it towards fathers and sons, and getting everyone worked up into a religiously violent fervor all so the sons will be compelled to join the military, either by their own emotional reaction or pressure from their fathers, is not only deceptive (what the f*ck else is new though?), but also should be an insult to everyone with any ounce of respect for churches and what transpires inside.
p.s. to the ignorant jarheads calling people fascists: fascism is a CONSERVATIVE movement, not liberal. The Islamic terrorists have much more in common with your worldview than they do with liberals. Both of you hate democracy because it could lead to a society where your extreme set of morals are not codified into law. You're all fascists cut from the same cloth.
Simmer down. It was a "Men's Night Out" with a theme of Military Appreciation. Nobody who went into this thing was unaware of this fact. Even the author was aware. So anytime someone has a function to honor the military, it's a sinister recruiting tool? Give me a break.
Thanks for an enlightening article. While it's encouraging to see a good Christian man who is as appalled as I am at the invasion of our churches, it's very depressing to see people calling you an "Islamo-fascist" for daring to speak out against our government.
It's never easy being right. Keep the faith and God bless you.
to the ignorant jarheads calling people fascists: fascism is a LIBERAL movement, not conservative. The Islamic terrorists have much more in common with your worldview than they do with conservatives. Both of you hate democracy because it could lead to a society where your extreme set of morals are not codified into law. You're all fascists cut from the same cloth.
http://
www.democraticunderground...ess=104x3128024
Please!
Fascism encyclopedia entry
Fascism (in Italian, fascismo), capitalized, refers to the right-wing authoritarian political movement which ruled Italy from 1922 to 1943 under the leadership of Benito Mussolini. The word fascism (uncapitalized) has come to mean any political stance or system of government resembling Mussolini's, as further discussed below.
A nation that:
* exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual,
* uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition,
* engages in severe economic and social regimentation.
* engages in corporatism,[1] (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?
tocId=219369)
* implements or is a totalitarian regime.
(emphasis added)
Liberalism is 100% opposed to every single aspect of this.
I think conservatives toda
The last of my comment was cut off:
I think conservatives today like to throw the word "fascists" around as an insult to liberals not knowing that extreme conservatives are fascists. Go find a history book before it's too late!
Mario I hope your writing from a computer in Iraq. You sound like a true believer, so if your not in Iraq get off your a*s and support your beliefs. This administration needs your help badly. If your going to talk the talk walk the walk, otherwise climb into your bomb shelter and hide. This makes me sick, another reason not to go to church, they are supporters of death and destruction. Would God really aprove of this? I think NOT.
The large picture of Jesus with the soldiers in front of it was truly disturbing. How those fathers and sons could have sat through that presentation without serious reservations, is incredible. Bringing military recruiters into the churches is a testament to how little Bush respects these people. He obviously thinks they are pliable, ignorant fools. I wonder. Did the military make any converts that day?
I commented on old post rather then this one by mistake- I'm sorry about that. I'll add that the biggest problem, and the reason that locomono was offended, was because this nonsense took place in a CHURCH SANCTUARY, where apparently the US MILITARY had replaced The FATHER, SON, and HOLY GHOST as the objects of worship. A church is more then a building, it's a sacred space. An event that would merely be stupid elsewhere is blasphemous in a church.
It's funny how people think that if you smear enough Jesus on anything it makes it OK. There is a reason we have separation of church and state in this nation - because nations that don't are ass-backwards retards.
Rock on with your bad self, Christian America. There's a Waco waiting for each and every one of you, and your magical sky god won't be there to save you. I only hope you don't take the rest of us down also.
Good point about the sanctuary methotaku.
-lim.
The thing that escapes most of you people is that the event was held in this church because those who ran the church set it up. The preachers, the congregation, they all had something to do with the event coordination. The military didn't come in and say "Give up your church for the day. It is our bidding!" The church used the Captain's experiences to sell God. Sometimes He needs his own recruiters, people to show the benifits of believing in Him. I spent a good deal of time in the middle of the Sunni triangle, being mortared, RGGed, and shot at by small arms, and my belief in Him, and what we were doing there, got me through it.
Keep some perspective on these stories. Read the pamphlet this guy picked up, and go to the church's website. Get some perspective on truth before you start picket lines.
...
creeepy...
GDL,
As s1rkull noted, as a matter of history and by definition fascism is a right-wing ideology. I know this probably runs against everything you've heard about how liberals are in bed with "the terrorists", but you really need to know that that idea (hyper-nationalism along with demonizing one's political opponents as traitors), in and of itself, is a characteristic of fascism.
Please, for our sake as well as for yours, do some reading about this using materials outside the right-wing echo chamber. Things are not the way you seem to think they are, and this country can't afford this sort of hateful divisiveness.
Locomono's analogy to the money-changers in the Temple is exactly right. Sure, the military is vital to preserving freedom of religion... just like the animals being sold in the Temple grounds for sacrifice were vital for religious observance. That doesn't mean you sell them IN THE TEMPLE. Mixing Christ on a Crucifix with soldiers shaking M-16s IN THE CHURCH just ain't right. The church is God's space. You can carry him onto the battlefield if you want, but don't carry the battlefield into His house.
I'd be interested to know: in the invitational at the end, when they normally ask you to come forward to consider baptism -- on the program it's marked as "Song of Decision" -- did they invite you to join Christ, or the Coast Guard? That's how you know if they're using Christ for the military or (as one guy absurdly claimed) the military to promote Christ.
I actually thought Mario was a parody until he quoted an obscure chapter and verse. Islamofascist? The guy
Well, it's 1-2-3
What are we fighting for?
Yeow! Thanks for the revelation. (Both the pictures and the clueless folks who've chosen to criticize them.)
Jesus... preached peace did he not?
I don't think he would approve of a place of worship to be used in this manner.
Jesus was a liberal ...
something Christ said about abominations in the holy place comes to mind here...
Pigs like mario and papafascist really piss me off-Hey, you idiots, the guy told you he was Orthodox on the front page! There are no islamofascists here, only bubbafascists.
one more thing, bubbafascists mario and ray, or whatever-just because we disagree with you doesn't make us terrorists-it makes us americans who disagree with you! here's a suggestion: READ the constitution, FOOLS, and stop wiping your asses with it.
The very idea of covering up the cross with a flag is blasphemous, and i am deeply offended by it. i'm also deeply offended that that the bubbafascists are not offended.
DAWG you took the words right outta my mouth...
The author/witness obvoisly: attends church, seemed to have served or has family ties to the military and clearly was disturbed by this as he described it in detail.
He was THERE.
If you have not seen the Frontline doc. 'Company of Soldiers' I recommend it. Those are our citizens over there and they are emotional, real... not just numbers fighting for... God knows what.
The thing that escapes most of you people is that the event was held in this church because those who ran the church set it up.
I'm sorry; how is this relevant other than to bring the church's tax-exempt status into question? The church I went to when I was growing up would never have hosted a political event like this. And the armed forces shouldn't be putting the church in legal jeopardy by entangling their state affairs with those of the church.
IANAL so I can't say for sure that this is illegal. It looks unethical as hell. If the church is offering the building up as an auditorium then maybe I could see it being OK. But this looks like an actual church service where people are worshipping the United States of America. That would make it more like the forced atheism in the former Soviet Union. They eliminated religion simply because there was no room for it in their worldview. They didn't have the balls, or maybe it just didn't occur to them
I don't see a problem using the church for functions other than strict worship. As the author said, churches are often cheap to rent out for events, and sadly most need the money.
The disturbing thing to me is the blending of a soldier raising a gun with pictures of jesus on the cross. Those who don't see the sickening juxtaposition here need to re-examine their faith and/or general sense of human decency. It's fine, and even admirable, for soldiers to have faith. But for a throng of people to ostensibly worship a man with a gun while jesus suffers silently in the background as wallpaper is enough to make me uncomfortable to say the least.
(truncated, cont.) to form a religion based on worship of the state, or even the state and also Jesus.
(The Nazis did try it though- they attempted to form a religion designed to replace Christianity that was based on Teutonic imagery and worship of the state.)
Although "Guys night out" doesn't sound like a church service. Was this a military event or a church event?
So when the soldier held his rifle in the air with Jesus in the background, was he trying to say he's proud to be party to the people who nailed him to the cross and killed him?
I'm starting to wonder what country I'm in, what decade, and if this crap is really happening. Twizzle, twazzle, twozzle, twome ........
Though I'm not very religious now, I was raised Catholic. And it's the raised-Catholic part of me that saw the picture of the big huge American flag covering up the *crucifix*--and got sick.
You *don't* cover up the crucifix. With ANYTHING.
It is often said that the church-state divide first came about to protect the churches, not the state. This is proof positive. Any church that would sanction this is sealing its own doom.
Maybe it's because I've been living in Bavaria for a few months, but stuff like this scares the hell out of me.
The thing that escapes most of you people is that the event was held in this church because those who ran the church set it up. The preachers, the congregation, they all had something to do with the event coordination. The military didn't come in and say "Give up your church for the day. It is our bidding!" The church used the Captain's experiences to sell God. Sometimes He needs his own recruiters, people to show the benifits of believing in Him. I spent a good deal of time in the middle of the Sunni triangle, being mortared, RGGed, and shot at by small arms, and my belief in Him, and what we were doing there, got me through it.
Keep some perspective on these stories. Read the pamphlet this guy picked up, and go to the church's website. Get some perspective on truth before you start picket lines.
j.p. | Email | 18.02.05 - 8:26 pm | #
I don't think the fact the church staff helped and agreed to set this up is escaping any of us, this only makes it more disturbing.
Perhaps a little off the main topic, but perhaps not. One of my pet peeves.
I don't believe that Fascism is a Conservative or Right-Wing Ideology. By most definitions, Conservative or Right Wing implies a devolution of power from a central power to the people and establishing rights based on a higher power (think the founding of the United States here). Fascism, Socialism, and Communism would all be left-wing as they base their power on the centralized ownership or control of property and establishing the government as the source of rights.
IMHO.
Glen
Where's FOX News on this story. This is probably 1 of 1000 churches doing the same type thing. I wonder if the name Bush was mentioned at this gathering. Its cool to support the troops but damn.
The elephant in the room that an increasing number of americans don't want to talk about is that deep inside they know that GWB does not have the best interests of the american people at heart! His foreign policy is not about defending the sovereignty and constitution of the USA, it's about making money for his crony fake-capitalist buddies. The american people were just barely afraid enough of 'changing horses' in midstream that GWB was able to get re-elected by 30% of the population, but nobody has dared polling our citizens on whether they trust this guy enough to send their own kids to die for his causes. Well, an ever decreasing number of people do believe in them, and that's why military enlistment is dropping into the toilet. Now they've got no choice but to invade our churches and try to convince you that real christians should die to preserve the neocon 'ideals'. These guys are in big, big trouble, and next they'll have to try to push the churches into the school
...push the churches into the schools to try to expand the Christian Guilt Trip Enlistment Plan. Four more years of destroying the military and the american morale. Christians, pray that we still have any competent soldiers left when the REAL threat comes. GWB should be ashamed.
To all you Military guys...of course you don't see anything wrong with this. You've already swallowed the BLUE pill and turned off your ABILITY to question authority. You CANNOT be in the military and simultaneously question authority. Doesn't work and you know it. So, it's normal for military guys to think this "Mens Night Out" is okay. Don't feel bad.
To everyone else, if you don't think the U.S. Government has roots in fascism, why don't you take a look at where "Fascism" gets it's roots: Fasces
Now take a look at those same symbols on both sides of the American Flag on the walls of congress.
Sure, you can argue about it's Roman Republic roots, but the bundle of rods still represent the components of the state, unified. The axe represents the power of the state over peoples lives. Especially after WWII, they di
...didn't take those symbols down. So you gotta ask yourself, if those were Swastika's on the walls of Congress, would we have left them up? The swastika has roots going way back in India's history long before Hitler decided to hijack it. So what gives?
Heres the point that everyone needs to take on board -it was put very eloquently above and I think it's so relvant that it needs to be said again
"you really need to know that that [the mixing of religious and militaristic imagery,] hyper-nationalism and demonizing one's political opponents as traitors [are the] characteristics of fascism."
There is no doubt - from Nazi Germany and Mussolini's Italy to Communist Russia and Baathist Iraq this was always true. Please god - not in America too!
Being a practicing Christian, this really makes me sick. For all the reasons mentioned above, and also because I've been taught my whole life that this sort of mixing of church and state isn't jsut illegal, it's immoral. "Render unto Caeser what is Caeser's, and unto God what is God's" is the operative quote from the Bible. It's one thing to honor men and women who sacrifice for our country. It's another to let the government recruit soldiers on church porperty. Our country was founded by inspired men, it's being run into the ground by an insipid rich brat.
One moderate Republican has now come to the painful realization that his party has been hijacked by fascists. I wonder what took so long and when the rest of the moderate Republicans – if there are any of them left – will come to this realization.
Put me down with the people who are horrified -- but I think J.P.'s point that the church invited this takeover does have some salience that D. B. Cooper missed. The original post by Liminal takes this event as evidence about the nature of the Bush administration. If anyone can show that the administration has a policy of setting up these events, I will rise to a whole new level of outrage (although I still won't think it has much to do with the prospects of an invasion of Iraq). But I, like the person who took the pictures, take this more as an indication of where some American Christians are at, and a very saddening one. I go to church with veterans with a range of political views, I honor them all, but... (I won't bother to repeat all the cogent remarks above).
I'm a bit puzzled by part of Papa Ray's initial remark: is he really saying that in West Texas, an event with a "song of decision" is no more likely to be in a church than anywhere else? If so, I
...really have to travel more.
"Patriotism is the first resort of the scoundrel."
A "Church" is a very broad category that encompass a wide cross-section of beliefs, some very conservative and some very liberal. This just happens to be a Christian Church. I don't have a problem if members of the congregation (who pay for the building) use the Church and do something that is legal like honoring and remembering people's military sacrifices and what role their faith played.
And I don't see any problem when both the Church and military recruiters choose to participate in an event together.
People ought to go back and read our great Constitution. The only prohibition is the USA government cannot establish a national religion. Recruiting at a private event is not the establishment of a national religion.
and in case any of you facist calling dipshits forgot:
recruiting for terrorism = illegal
recruiting for the US mililtary = legal
If the purpose was for the church to bring in someone to witness to the congregation, I have no problem with that. But the individual was not the only thing brought in. Resources (times, manpower, material and money) from the US military was spent on this presentation. The "donations" from the Ky National Guard, US Marine Corps Reserve, Army Recruiting, Air Force Recruiting, and Navy Recruiting were not out of hte goodness oftheir hearts. There was/is a motive....to recruit. If not, why were there recruiting materials? This was the church allowing the military to use it's facility for recruiting to a receptive audience. How many fathers brought their sons to this to try to convince them to join? It is a little disconcerting that the church is allowing itself to be used to persuade young men to joinsince when did Christ say it is your duty to join the military? Jesus didn't enlist in the Roman Army. What would Jesus do? Yeah right.
P.S. AS a side note, this is the church my 86-year-old grandmother grew up in and she is upset as well. She had no idea that this was what "Men's Night Out" was for.
What ever happened to separation of church and state? If these "houses of worship" MY ASS!! were taxed like other businesses they wouldn't have so much to propagandize with.
you could really improove these images by adjusting their levels in photoshop..
and to all the dipshits here who cant figure out whats wrong with this picture.. its because you are being used and will probably never realize it.. you have faith in bush, aligned with your faith in god, and through that he can use your love for god for his purpose, not gods.
did the church do anything during the holocaust? no, hitler was a good christian.. they forgot that people in power will ultimately be corrupted, it is the nature of man.
think about it, would jesus kill 200,000+ civilians? ever? didnt he say to love your enemy and pray for them? instead you idiots want to massacre them, because you have been used.. your faith and love in god has been used to have that same faith in a leader, when in reality it is up to all americans to question the government to keep it from being corrupt..
good pics, thanks for the info.
"Our Christian nation"?
Who knew you had so many readers in Spain?
.
As an officer I was taught that unless in combat or imminent danger of combat one does not take military weapons into the nave or sanctuary areas of a church and that doing so profanes the church. Even when my daughter married in a military chapel and wanted a sword arch upon departing the church I left my sword, and the swords of the rest of the officer, in the anteroom. Just recently I attended the wedding of a young officer and again, the swords were all left in the anteroom.
Further, having attended too many military funerals, while the coffins were draped in the US flag the cross or crucifix was ALWAYS resting atop the flag. They were never covered by the flag. God comes before country, not the other way around.
I'm a military brat. I know something of military culture. Regardless of one's faith, this mixing of militarism and faith inside a church--we call our Presbyterian church a "sanctuary"--is in really bad taste, and it is offensive to many Christians. Displaying automatic weapons in a church? Hanging a flag over a crucifix? It may not be illegal, but it is horrifying on so many levels. The worst part about it is that those like me who express this view (which is entirely consistent with the message of Jesus) are called crypto-fascists allied with Muslim terrorists.
This is truly how the Third Reich began. If another terrorist attack occurs, or if our economy is disrupted, the same thing that happened in Germany in the 1930s will occur here, and it will occur because of events like this and the failure of good people to speak up.
You're fooling yourself if you think conservatism and fascism are not part of a continuum. Has the conservative Bush regime increased personal or societal freedom in the US? I don't think so. Personally I'd rather experience the freedom of national health insurance than the freedom of abject poverty.
Why do we as Americans think God is on our side? We went into Somolia, as that speaker will remember, to help people, but went into Iraq for oil or a base in the Middle East. I think this event was held to get young men to think they should carry on family traditions and join the military as God wants. If you love your son, have him join after Bush is out. Please have him (or her) wait 3 years. Half of Americans now think the Iraq war was a mistake. Yes, it was good for the Iraqis to be liberated, but bad for us to increase terrorism in the world. Bad for our economy to let Bush take us on this misguided adventure. Only the military-industrial complex Ike warned us about benefits. If we want to fight terrorism, let's protect our ports. Oops, sorry, there's no money left. And, yes, I'm a proud Army veteran of 12 years.
"would jesus kill 200,000+ civilians?"
Well, you have two choices:
1) Leave in a dictator continues to kill his own country men and neighbors at a rate of many hundreds of thousands year after year. Leave in a dictator who has declared war on the US. Leave in a dictator who supports terrorism and terrorists group in the Middle East and abroad. Leave in a dictator who has used and is seeking more WMDs, and when the US or UN tries to check on it he kicks them out.
2) Take out Saddam. A much smaller number of innocent civilians die. Give freedom to the people of Iraq. Disrupt terrorist networks and cut off a large state sponsor of terrorism. Send a message to the world that state sponsors of terrorism will not be tolerated.
While many would like to appease and wish away problems like Jimmy Carter, I think Jesus would pick#2.
Iraq wasn't about Saddam or WMDs--it was about oil. Saddam was all bluff when it came to WMDs, as we all eventually learned. He did not decalre war on the U.S.--that is a falsehood. He did not have anything to do with 9/11. He did financially support some terrorists who conducted isolated actions against Israel, but this was quite limited. For that matter, we supported terrorists in Honduras and Guatemala, and continue to do so in many countries around the world. In the name of "freedom," of course.
If we're so concerned about civilian deaths, then why haven't we occupied the Sudan? If we're so concerned about dictators, why haven't we invaded North Korea? If we're so concerned about the proliferation of WMDs, then why is the U.S. the largest supplier of military hardware in the world?
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis, 1935
If you haven't read It Can't Happen Here by Mr. Lewis, you might want to...
"Take out Saddam. A much smaller number of innocent civilians die."
That's provably false, more civilians die per day in Iraq now than when Saddam was in charge. You can check the numbers, but I'm sure you won't.
Beyond that, I'd *love* to see you find a single passage in the Bible to suggest that Jesus would be in favor of going to war with Iraq. I'm assuming you'll dismiss the fact I posted as liberal agit-prop, and that's fine, but look in the Bible. Don't assume what Jesus would do based on a decision you've already made, figure out what Jesus would do based on evidence. There is simply nothing in the Bible to support your position regarding Jesus, and I defy you to prove me wrong.
Iraq wasn't about Saddam or WMDs--it was about oil.
Hey retard. It would have been a hell of lot cheaper to pay more for Iraqi oil than go to war with Saddam. Why didn't we just take over Iraqi oil fields in the first Gulf War? Why didn't we just claim ownership of all the Iraqi oil fields? Because it wasn't all about oil.
US must act in its best interest if it is to continue to be the most powerful (and arguably one of the only) forces for peace, prosperity and human rights. A stable oil supply is essential to maintaining the world economy. So having a sane regime in Iraq and freeing Iraqi people is to the US and world's advantage. They are one of the many benefits to the US and to the world by taking out Saddam.
Looks, deciding to go to war is a big-ass balancing test. You look at your options - waiting longer, doing nothing, taking him out, etc. USA and others allies waited for years and finally chose to take him out, which tur
Better this than the draft. The Christian Fundies voted him in, the Christian fundies can fight his wars.
I read through this and as a Christian it's disgusting. They set this up for a father/son outing and instead are using this for a military recruting. As other's have said the church is supposed to be a sacred place of worship. Just read Mark 11: 15-18. If they showed up at my church I would shoo them away and tell them if people wanted to join the military they'd call them up. They shouldn't have held this in a church but in a gymnasium at a school or something. Truly disgusting.
Also I wanted to add something else. Here's a good quote:
"The key, however, is make sure that we're on God's side, not claim that God is on our side."~Abraham Lincoln
Also if you haven't for those with an open-mind visit http://www.informationclearinghouse.info It's a website that has tons of great information about everything that has been going on. They even have some video's. I recommend them all if you haven't seen any of them but especially "Hijacking Castrophe," "The Carlyle Group," and "The Bush Family Fortunes." Also not long after the Iraq occupation happened someone asked Bush how we'd pay for it. You know what he said? The OIL. That's what this is about. If you know your basic Bush Family 101 you'd know this.
I am interested to know what the duty status of the Captain and other members of the military were. Were they local to the area and on there own time? Were they on leave, TDY or permissive TDY?
As a retired member of the military, political scientist and attorney, I am very disturbed by this story. When I served, religion was not shoved down anyone's throat; and conversely, churches served as places of peace, not recruiting centers. Everyone, please watch "All Quiet On the Western Front," this is eerily familiar.
... one of the only) forces for peace, prosperity and human rights...
your peace = preemptive war
your prosperity = tax cuts for the rich
your human rights = torture
We'll pray for you. When other Christians start realizing how you've used them and their children for your "peace", and your "prosperity", and your "human rights", you will need all the help you can get.
...but that the wicked should turn from their ways and live...
hey not once,
The USA isn't stupid enough to wait until it's attached to protect ourselves. There is no other "USA" country in the world looking out for us, so we have to look out for ourselves.
As far as taxes, the more money you make the more taxes you pay. So a "rich" person in New York City will pay over 65% of their income in federal, state, and local taxes. The poor in America aren't hungry, they're obese and have cable TV, VCR's and cars. Also, USA citizens by far give away the most money in the world to charities.
We torture? Name one country that has a better human rights record than the USA and who will punish their own soldiers as swiftly as we do? We punished some horny soldiers in Abu Graib for putting underwear on someones head and stripping them naked. Is that torture? The US provides captured soldiers excellent healthcare, nutrition and comfortable sleeping quarters.
The world would be run by Communists or Nazis if it wasn't for the
...Democrats, who overcame resistance from the Nazi-friendly domestic American right and steered us into WWII, led us to victory therein, and erected the national security apparatus which served us pretty well in the ensuing cold war.
bryan, I'm sorry, but your last comment just confirmed the fact that you are totally removed from reality. Congrats! You can now proudly claim to be a righty wingnut!
p1: of course, we have to look out for ourselves. but it's a sign of immaturity when you're looking out more for yourself than others. right now, america is acting like a spoiled teenage brat. also, america criticizes and hinders other countries looking out for themselves. are they wrong for looking out for themselves?
p2: the 'poor' in america, although much better than the 'poor' in say subsaharan afrika, are still very hungry, and need help. the fact taht you can carelessly say this, and also about the US donating more money than anywhere else, fits the tenants of a wingnut. if you consider the facts (which a wingnut won't do, ever, as illustrated by luntz), the US donations per capita rank comes nowwhere close to its GNP per capita rank. the important part is 'per capita', please note.
p3: there are many
p3: there are many countries with better human rights records than the US. I frankly laughed out loud at your statement, sorry to say. human rights organizations continuously provide statistics, and although the US is still pretty decent in its human rights advocacy, it doesn't come anywhere close to 1st place. no torture? then why the hundreds of investigations that are finally being made? plus, if we can go to war for intelligence (not by the CIA, but by the WH) as faulty as the one for Iraq on WMDs, than the 'intelligence' from more credible various institutions than our WH right now all point to a 'slam dunk' that the US participated in torture.
as for your start of p4: I assume the cut off part at the end was 'US'. In a way, I agree with you, without the US having fought off Naziism and Soviet Communism, we would live in a vastly different world today. Yes, but that does not make the US infallible. More disturbingly, that's exactly the kind of thought that will corrupt
More disturbingly, that's exactly the kind of thought that will corrupt (alas, it already has) the US and bring its tragic downfall. Consider the following if you have trouble understanding: Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Macedonians, Greeks, Romans, Imperial China, Napoleon's France, British Empire, Nazi Germany, Czarist Russia, Japanese Empire, USSR... just to name them off the top of my head. All thought they were the most righteous, the most advanced, the nation/kingdon/empire chosen by God(s). Please, let us not add US to the list in the future by being so shamelessly self important
Whatever happened to THOU SHALT NOT KILL and TURN THE OTHER CHEEK, o Christians?
Leviticus 26:1 (King James Version)
Leviticus 26
1Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Ok, first off, this isn't illegal. Possibly immoral, maybe unethical, but not illegal.
Distasteful as all hell, yeah, it certainly is that.
Second, an OFFICIAL Navy recruitment spot this ain't, not like the booths they set up at NASCAR last year or at job fairs. Some local recruiter is giving out pamplets, sure enough, but I freaking guarantee you this wans't set up by CNRC.
Recruiters will go anywhere, they've go a quota and they'll go to any lengths to fill it.
Yeah, they went way too far in mixing church and military for my taste. But that's what this one boils down to, a matter of taste.
Dear Reality Check,
If you'd called me retard to my face, I'd given you a fat lip for your trouble. You're nothing but a bully and a coward with a keyboard and a hidden email address.
And do us all a favor: let us know when a "sane" regime in Iraq is elected, the Iraqi people are truly free to pursue their own interests, and when a stable oil supply is found, or at least one we don't have to install at the point of a gun.
(BTW, we kicked Saddam out of Kuwait because they threatened our "stable oil supply." And it was Shrub's daddy who decided not to occupy Iraq for the same reasons over 1500 U.S. troops have died, tens of thousands of our troops have sustained serious injuries, and hundreds of thousands of innocent have lost their lives, including children, the vast majority from U.S. guns. Think about that, you cruel jerk, the next time you stomp the gas pedal in your SUV.)
Hey retrogrouch.
You're a retard. My email address isn't hidden. I'm betting your lips are the only thing on your body that aren't already fat.
Yeah, this doesn't directly affect me, since I'm already in the Armed Forces, but this does alarm me.
Our enemies, whoever they are, tend to be religous extremists, and now it seems to me that our own men are too.
Now, my own opinions on the matter aren't very important, becasue if I get sent over, I'll damn well do whatever I have to do to accomplish my missions. The fact that my some of my brothers in arms see this as some sort of Holy Crusade to rid the world of the infidels (sounds exactly like what the terrorists are saying, doesn't it?) frightens me. If I'm in combat, I want the Marine next to me doing his duty, not saying "hey, check this out" and shooting the nearest Islamic kid he sees.
Well, of course, it isn't illegal per se...but when I first saw it, I was extremely offended. So, it made me think, "this SHOULD be illegal." And it SHOULD be illegal exactly because it doesn't help defeat militant Islamism. It only inflames it. We can hide this, sure...but that won't help either. So, I argue we've got to confront this cancer and do some reflecting about why this is wrong and what we may possibly do to make fundamental Christianity less of a rallying point for the mindless wargames those in the Pentagon play.
Another thing is the shock-value of these images are not decreasing.
What do we do about this?
liminal
I heard an "Amen" at tje emd pf tje Pledge of Allegience for the first time this December and had a similar reaction. But I have worse news to report. Pentecost Sunday is the second holiest day of the Christain Church year (yes, it even outranks Christmas) commemorating tje descent of the Holy Spirit on the early Church, the Holy Spirit who is a divine person and without whose presence and grace no one can believe in Christ, in other words, if the Holy Spirit had not descended on Pentecost Sunday Christ's death and resurrection would have been in vain. This spring in the Lutheran Church in the next town north of here they cancelled the Pentecost Sunday service to do a speical Memorial Day service a day early. The Baptist and Methodist clergymen were also involved in this so the other two churches in town didn't have a Pentecost service either. I believe it is right to honor American war dead on Memorial Day, but Pentecost Sunday is for the worship of God, especially God the Ho
I always get chills (not the good kind) and feel very uneasy when patriotic songs are sung in church. Thankfully, that's not very often. I thought we were supposed to worship God, not country? Scary, scary, scary...
Mario,
You do know that Bush and his regime are pushing an increasingly Nazi-like envelope onto the American public, right? Are you a CHristo-fascist?
Iran will probably continue to do what it has done for years, it will continue to pay off the American government with cheap oil and cash. This is what they've been doing for years. This is from my Iranian ethnographer friend who has connections to the Iranian government.
Well i would have to say that if your church lset the boyscouts or any other type of outside groupe use the church why is it not fair that the armed forces cant have a bit there? Do you think the speaker way lieing about his faith in god?
And how do we know that the man whos nameplate you took a pic of was really trying to recrute people. there are allways tables with card and books for who wantes to pick it up. and also what where the last 4 mens night ought things about? where theay the samething?
The comments trying to tie American conservatism to fascism are truly unfair and terribly uninformed.
American conservativism has its roots in political thought from Great Britain - from Burke to Disraeli to Churchill, strong beilevers in republican democracy all. It is a cogent system of beliefs that seeks to empower individuals through limits on government and through the force of free minds and free markets.
By contrast, fascism is a statist philosophy -- given to us by Continental thinkers in opposition to British thought, no less -- and it has more in common with communism and other totalitarian, statist systems.
Fascism has no connection to either American liberal political thought or to American conservative political thought.
The two simply aren't connected.
It's also important to note that fascism is a distinctly atheistic and even sinister pagan political philosophy. Hitler and his minions were quite hostile toward Christianity, and hearkened back to occult
I found nothing wrong with this until I read the program. As someone stated a few comments down from the top, this was not a government sponsered event. It was a CHURCH sponsered event, to honor those Christians who chose to support our nation by joining the Armed Forces. If a church desides to cover up its own cross, that's their perogative.
As I said, it was something I read in the program that bothered me.
Men,
It is a privilege for Porter Memorial Baptist Church to be hosting this event. This is the fifth year that our Men's Ministry has put this on and we are excited about how we have seen God provide for us to make this night possible.
This is a night to honor the men and women who serve our God blessed nation, and for those who have served in previous conflicts and wars. Porter Memorial Baptist Church wishes to say "Thank you!!!" for making our nation free to worship God.
We hope you enjoyed the BBQ meal and will enjoy some of our most talented men
LOL
Ooops. I didn't realize there was a limit. That's pretty funny.
Let's try again.
I found nothing wrong with this until I read the program. As someone stated a few comments down from the top, this was not a government sponsered event. It was a CHURCH sponsered event, to honor those Christians who choose to support our nation by joining the Armed Forces. If a church desides to cover up its own cross, that's their perogative.
As I said, it was something I read in the program that bothered me.
Men,
It is a privilege for Porter Memorial Baptist Church to be hosting this event. This is the fifth year that our Men's Ministry has put this on and we are excited about how we have seen God provide for us to make this night possible.
This is a night to honor the men and women who serve our God blessed nation, and for those who have served in previous conflicts and wars. Porter Memorial Baptist Church wishes to say 'Thank you!!!' for making our nation free to worship God.
We hope you enjoyed the BBQ meal and will enjoy some of our most talented men singing praises to God this evening. Most of all, we hope you are challenged and inspired by the testimony that Capt. Jeff Struecker gives tonight as he shares his experiences in battle and his faith in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.
Our mission statement is 'To worship God, globally lead people to faith in Christ, and grow together to be like Him.'
Most of all, on behalf of our pastoral staff and men, we w
Terrible grammer aside, the thing which I found most offensive about this statement was the church's mission statement: "To worship God, globally lead people to faith in Christ, and grow together to be like Him."
One of the things that makes this nation great, is that we are free to worship in whatever means we choose. Whether it be Jesus Christ, God Himself, Allah, Buddah, Ra, or your own narcissistic self. To believe that your "Mission" is to force everyone to worship in the way you choose is about as Anti-American as you can get, and makes you no different from the Muslim extremists who hijacked four jumbo jets and flew them into various targets. Wait. It does make you different. You are not as dedicated to your cause.
In the same vein, the person who wrote this little tale is just as guilty as those he portrays. There are many devout Christians who believe that God has blessed our nation, and they choose to serve God and our country by fighting in our wars.
If a Church chooses to honor them for their faith in the God they worship, and their willingness - not to suffer death - but to risk being severly maimed, or crippled for the cause that they believe in, then they should not be belittled.
That is not what America is about.
America is about being free to think, believe, and say whatever you choose. It is not as if the entire United States Army is in Iraq fighting so that "our" God will triumph over "their" God. If that is the belief some of those soldiers have, and that is the cause they fight for, then it is their right as Americans. To deny them that right is just as fascist as saying that everyone should worship YOUR God.
i'm not a christian , but i was brought up as one ( i decided for myself that it doesn't cut the mustard, neither does any other religion for that matter) , but to see a friggin military parade , in a church is just messed up... the priest or minister of that church is obviously not a man of god in the true sense of the word...
as for renting out the place for activities....
in europe ( you know , the place with the big cathedrals from the middle ages ) all churches have a seperate community center for "activities" , the church itself is only for religious ceremonies, politics and entertainment stay out the door (maybe that's why christianity in europe is fading fast... because it's boring... but at least it's not corrupt)
btw... the community centers , linked to a church , even in those places , i'm sure there would be not room for military propaganda...
very funny how people always link mosks to political / military propaganda... and how they conflict with the d
very funny how people always link mosks to political / military propaganda... and how they conflict with the democratic principle of "seperation of religion and state" only to see the same sort of propaganda growing in christian amerika...
God is not with the USA... God is with all men that truly believes in God and actually lives according to his belief...
none of the 10 commandments say :
You shall go to war, and force democracy and belief in you God onto others....
neither is such text in the Koran , or in the Talmoet, or in any other religion....
the only religion that proclaims such things.... is "the religion of believing in people who thing they're right"
Exactly my point, gonzo. Don't know if you bothered to read my post or not.
To you others, apparently this is a church of which a large number of its congregation are in the Military, have friends and family in the military, etc. Locomono was a stranger in a strange land. I felt the same thing the first time I spent the night at a friend's house and they took me to a Pentacostal Church. They were speaking in gobbledygook. . . . er, I mean "tongues" and fondling each other . . . er, I mean "laying on hands."
Anyway, I dropped a quarter in their collections plate, and filled out their "guest list" . . . er, I mean "postal harassment list" just to be polite, and they wouldn't leave me alone until I sent them a friendly letter explaining I was an athiest and I hoped they all burned in hell for their satanic rituals.
Apparently they did not understand the irony. But they left me alone, which was the point after all.
I am not an atheist. I have my beliefs.
I just do not believe in organized religion. I don't need someone to tell me what God is. I can figure that out for myself.
I can also see the appeal of belonging to a congregation and a group of people who feel united by their beliefs. Which is why I don't judge these people. They are not forcing you to attend. Locomono could have gotten up and left anytime he chose.
It is when a group tries to force everyone to their beliefs that I believe they should be stopped. Whether they be Christian, Muslim, or Scientologists. (Especially the Scientologists.) Just kidding. (No I'm not.) Yeah, really I am.
I'm not going to bother reading through all 93 comments above, but I'll just give out my opinon on the content of your blog entry.
To address the function taking place inside a church or a place of worship; this is common in all aspects of society, ranging from boy scouts to political events and beyond. There is nothing wrong with the event taking inside the church persay, but I'll get to where I take issue in a little bit. Some churches also allow these type of events on or within their premesis not just out of Christian Charity, but perhaps also to gain more publicity for their church, whether that mean an inflamed status within the community, more parishnors, donations, what have you. You'd be suprised at the politics going on within the Church Vestry. I'm sure a number of you have either served on the Vestry Boards or even as Senior or Junior Wardens, so you know exactly what I'm talking about.
I also find no issue with Captain Struecker and his party using Religion as
I also find no issue with Captain Struecker and his party using Religion as a major theme within their exposition. Please keep in mind this man has been through one of the worst military disasters the service men have ever seen. The Black Hawk Down affair was not authorized as far up the chain of command it needed to go, the operation was poorly planned, and what's worse is these men were nearly abandoned to their deaths; I've heard several describe it being worse than Vietnam. They were trapped within a hell hole which most civilians can't even comprehend in their worst nightmares, so it shouldn't be thought of as wrong for them to rely on Christian beliefs, or any religious beliefs for that matter, to help them survive. It seems to me like he had every right to discuss his relationship with Christ and the Lord in connection with the events which he experienced. Perhaps what he was getting at was the fact that if you trust in the Lord, he will take care of you, regardless whether
your in the military or not. Now, I'm not completely certain about his or his party's true motivation in giving his speech was, but neither can anyone except themselves.
The issue I do take up, after reading your post, was in connection with the blatant use of Christian and religious artifacts in conjunction with his speech, which I would deem to be a bit over the top, judging by the content of your entry. What most likely happened here was poor planning on his and his party's parts in judging the receptivity of such over the top use of religous symbols. Perhaps they thought it was appropriate given he was preaching about his relationship with the Lord with it's connections to his military experience, but failed to realize that it would aggravate audiences who have not encountered similiar experiences. I don't know; only the Lord and him know.
By the way, the picture with the various uniforms and with the confederate soldiers - all those have been parts of the military dress at some time during the history of our country. There is nothing wrong with the confederate uniform, because the Confederate Army was really an American military force and is a part of our heritage and culture, especially to members of the service who are familiar with Military history.
And the pro-slavery Confederate Army had WHAT to do with Jesus? Come on. A church is not the place for guns and military recruitment. Period.
@ Dave Childers
i don't find an issue either , having anyone (even Captains that have gone through rough times), say there stuff in a church or whatever... the issue is that this is a full on military parade, with weapons ( or at least replica's , i can't tell from a picture ) in a church
if any pastor, or minister allows this in his church ,then he's not good at his job.
we're talking Christian churches here...
wasn't it Jezus , who cast out the shopkeepers from the steps of the Temple in Jerusalem?
wasn't it Jesus who said , turn the other cheek?
Didn't he preach , total pacifism?
didn't he die in great agony , on the Cross , to proove that point?
because we're talking christian church here, we have to discuss this in light of christian rules....
that means rules made based on the life of Jezus ( i'm sayin based on , because the new testament is a bunch of interpretations , it's not written by Jezus himself )
either way , all the interpretations , . of the above statements (temple, cheek , pacifism , dead on the cross ) , so i'm pretty sure there's no room for interpretation there if you're a true christian...
that means no stinking military parades in a church
not even if it is to make money for the church
hey , nobody said religion was easy , in the old days you got eaten by a lion for doing so.. did those christians loose or denounce their faith or just .. bend the rules a bit for convenience??
Which is exactly the reason I do not believe in organized religion. At the point when the "religion" becomes organized beneath one person or group who set "rules" by which we must worship if we are to belong to that faith, it is less about the religion, and more about the organization.
However, this particular church, organized beneath the Baptist Pastor who leads his congregation in their beliefs, finds no particular harm in allowing, even sponsering these events.
So for us to judge them because they are not "adhering to the Christian Faith" is only our interpretation of what the "Christian Faith" entails.
Love thy family, love thy neighbor, respect your elders, protect the weak and helpless. Which is the most important? What do you do when one conflicts with another? What if it is your neighbor persecuting your family? Or your family persecuting your neighbor? Who do you protect then?
Who are we to say these people are wrong for the way they choose
Who are we to say these people are wrong for the way they choose to display their faith? If you object to it, go and display YOUR faith in the manner YOU choose, and allow them to judge you.
american patriot.... religion has nothing to do with politics.. or military propaganda...
it doesn't even matter what kind of faith we discuss...
i just used the christian examples, to show an example why it was wrong in this case.
in another example , you could take the mosks , if the head honcho there started allowing fanaticals to advertise training camps in some desert country.. then the news papers would be full of it ,.... outrage, and what not...
but in fact... it's the same thing they're doing as in the church discussed here.
church = religion
military = politics with a twist
military & religion , don't mix
you say "who are we to say these people are wrong for the way they choose to display their faith"
i'm not saying they're wrong in the way they choose to display their faith...
because they aren't , they are displaying corruption of faith...
as for me going there, to have them judge me... well , i'm not going to the US , because i don't have a desire to subject myself to a nation ruled by folks who think they are right, by default... just because they can afford to do so , purely based on economics , not based on merit.
You are all missing the biggest, most obvious point:
Look at the title of the gathering: "Mens Night Out" In-other-words, "Mothers Not Welcome".
Now, isn't it odd, that if this gathering is really supposed to be about "Honoring the US Military", then why aren't the Mothers that produce the little children that grow up to become the soldiers invited? Why aren't the Mothers that are supposed to sacrifice their children for their country allowed to Honor their dead sons?
The reason is obvious: It is a recruiting event. Pure and simple. They are using all classic appeals: Personal accounts(Captain Sturecker), Patriotism (Modern Soldier - Huge American Flag - different military branch flags), Guilt (Historical background - "Those that sacrificed their lives before YOU."), Religious (Church, Multi-Media display of Jesus on Cross), Military Atomosphere (camoflauge netting - men in uniforms), Paternal Appeal (Fathers are there so Sons can make their
fathers proud if the Join up).
It's a psy-op that has the objective of recruiting young soldiers, and gaining political support for the war from the fathers.
The reason they don't want Mothers at the gathering is because they would see right through all the patriotical, historical fervor for what it really is: to convince their Sons to volunteer for War. They would see their son's chests swell with pride and decide to become a part of something bigger than themselves. Mothers would slap their son in the ass, grab them by the ears, and leave immediately.
If you can't see that, you are blind. When parents send their children off to war, Fathers become proud, Mothers weep in sadness.
If you want to "Honor the US Military", then go down the local VA Hospital and volunteer some time. Get to know the Vet's both young (thanks to Bush) and Old.
All of these arguments of whether or not using Religion as a tool to recruit soldiers is completely missing the point.
It's ALWAYS been used to one extent or another for this purpose. The RED states are mostly religious, and mostly support the War. That's why Religion was invented in the first place, to gather the masses into a fundamental belief system so Leaders could easily rally them for War. War and Religion go togther like peas and carrots.
Do I think it's wrong? Fuck yeah. You'd have to be an idiot, or historically ignorant, to join any modern Army. I'll fight a war when another Nation's Army is at my front door - not when a bunch of Airport Security people fail to do their jobs.
word!
I agree with you completely, Fred. Except for the bit about Mothers. Women can be as warmongering as men. Admitedly, the percentage of those who support war is decidedly in favor of men, rather than women.
Mothers can be just as proud of their sons who go off to war as fathers, and fathers shed just as many tears when their children die.
I never argued that this was not an attempt by A RELIGION to recruit members of their congregation to the war effort. I am, however, pointing out that this is NOT a government sponsered event. I noticed that in many of the comments, people appeared to be opperating under the false assumption that this event was sponsered by the military to recruit likely citizens to their ranks, and that the U.S. Military was using a church to do so.
When, infact, it is a CHURCH sponsered event, and the CHURCH is using the Military to strengthen their own congregation. It is the belief of this particualar church that our soldiers are in the Middle East fighting some Holy Crusade, to spread their Word across the face of the globe, and make the world Christian.
A fact which makes them, in my book, no different than the fanatical Muslims who strap bombs to their chest and run into cafes which U.S. soldiers frequent. Or even U.S. citizens. The only difference between those who believe it is their duty to spread Christianity across the globe, and those who call everyone who does not adhere to their own belief "infidel" is that they are less dedicated.
I do not judge Muslims for their faith, any more than I do these people, who want to recruit people who follow their beliefs to fight a war which they believe is righteous and just. Indeed, it is only when two sides believe their cause is "right" that wars develope.
Where I do judge Christians is when they believe it is their mission to force every being living on this planet to conform with their interpretation of what the "true" faith is meant to be.
Just as I judge Muslims who believe it is their mission to kill or convert every "infidel" living on this planet
How can you have infidelity to a belief to which you never adhered?
Western civilization, not just America, began this conflict. Not by trying to force our religion upon them, but by trying to "free" the "oppressed Middle-Eastern women." Foreign activists for womens rights, outraged at the treatment women reicieve in certain Muslim societies, trying to force our belief of how people should treat one another on a society that did not want change.
Their excuse? "They don't know any better."
That they had some small success in showing women that they had just as much "right" as men, outraged those in power - the men - and made them see us as their enemy.
Where I take issue with my own government is their aim to "make the World Democratic." Democracy is no better or worse than Communisim or Fascism. It is only in how it is applied. If they truly wanted to "Make the World Democratic" they would leave people to their own devices, and allow them to decide ho
how they wished to govern themselves.
The British were honest in their goals, two hundred and fifty years ago, and said, "Make the World British."
I agree that this war should never have been fought. It is unwinable. We are not fighting a country, we are fighting a belief. Our government should have sponsered events like these. They should have recruited and sent over two-hundred thousand Jehovah's Witnesses. Then we would be fighting on their terms.
Now, instead of going to war with our enemies, we are at war with a country. That that country happens to be rich in fossil fuels has nothing to do with it, I'm sure. Just as I'm sure that oil companies only buy out the patents of inventions that would make automobiles run at two-hundred miles to the gallon, then sit on them, because they are trying to develope them further.
I do not blame the oil companies. I blame the inventors, who would create something that would better the world, and then sell them for their own gain rather than work to bring their vision to reality.
Do I believe America is "right" because we can "afford to be"? Far from it. Do I believe the rest of the world is "wrong" for putting the steering-wheel on the opposite side than the originator intended? No. But I do believe that says alot about the world's envy of the American way of life.
You take what we produce through our own ingenuity, because it makes your life easier.
And then you lament us when we try to give you something you do not want.
Well, you give back electricity, the telephone, the automobile, the airplane, the radio, satelites, paved roads, skyscrapers, hurricane and earthquake proof housing, assembly line production, film, the television, and the computer which you are using to read this even now, and, I promise, America will leave you alone to read your books by candlelight in houses that fall down at the first strong wind, unless they take fifty years to build them out of stone, block by handcut block.
But then, I guess it's not what you've done for me, it's, "What have you done for me lately?"
dude, your arguements are as vague as can be..
world wrong because steering wheel is on opposite side than the originator??
apart from UK and (ex) colonies .. most of the world has it on the left side,, but the original location , as you mention it .. stems from hors carriages.. where the "operator" sat right , so he could whip and use the brake with his right hand ... so who's wrong now? horse and carriage is waaay older than your Fort F150 is
as for not fighting a country .. your right there... but are fighting a culture... built around a firm belief in islam ... and that's because the US never gave that culture and corresponding religion never , ever any respect... it's all economics from US standpoint... culture has never been a valued commodity in the US Congress or White House ( at least not different cultures )
besides, don't friggin switch subjects. we're talking messed upness of having military parades in a house of worship and how this pastor isn't worth
worth anything as a member of the clergy. it's not about what anyone has done for anyone lately.
it's about corruption of a religion , abused by people with even more corrupt moral values ...
oh yeah , and about lemmings to blind to see the clif they are about to jump from
Really? I thought this was about a larger issue. I thought this was about people. I thought this was about opinion, and judgement.
Which "religion" is it that is corrupt? It is not about "Christianity" and "Islam." How can it be? To Catholics this event we are discussing may be absolutely wrong. To Southern Baptists, it's just a way of life. Just as there are factions within Islam that believe flying 747s with four hundred civilian passangers into buildings holding tens of thousands of people going about their daily lives is justified, and factions that are horrified by their actions.
Furthermore, your indignation is not about religion, it is about American Law. Separation of Church and State. A law that was originated to keep a government from forcing its people to worship the God they chose.
I do not know what country you are from, and what your laws might be. But here in America we are free to follow whatever belief we might choose. Which means that even within a religion that can be vaguely lumped under "Christianity" there are tens of thousands of churches, each following a separate interpretation of what exactly "Christianity" entails.
I wouldn't have it any other way. Wait. I take that back. If I could, I would do away with places of worship altogether. Let each individual follow their own interpretation of what their religion entails. There is one unifying factor with ALL religions. Their founder preached a separation from the established church. They tried to teach their followers that "God," whatever you might name him, is within each of us, and that no one should tell us how we must worship.
Buddah came the closest to succeeding. He preached that each of us must look within ourselves for the devine.
Even his philosophy has been corrupted with ritual and organization until it is not about finding our path, but about finding The Path. If each of us are individuals, how can we all use the same methods to enlightenment? We must find those within ourselves, each in our own way.
You are upset because the pastor of this church allowed the cross to be covered by an American flag? You are upset because the Christian military men who put on this display used symbols of their faith in their presentation?
Is that not putting more emphasis on the symbol than the belief? "Thou shalt not worship false idols." God is not in a cross, no more than a Government is in a flag. They are only symbols man has given his belief to unify people beneath them.
When I see people burning American flags, I do not get upset because they are "desecrating" our flag. A flag is a dyed piece of cloth. I am upset because they are acting out against a government that has strayed from the ideals from which it was founded.
Rather than trying to institute change they react in a way that is sure to get a reaction. A negative reaction. A reaction that will CLOSE peoples ears, perhaps even people who want the same things as they.
If you want to convince someone to your belief, the best way to do it is not to tear other people's beliefs down, but to display your own in such a way that makes them better than those you are fighting.
THAT is why I do not agree with this war. THAT is why I do not judge these people. Only their belief that it is their "mission" to spread their form of worship across the world. Their belief that only they are "good" and everyone who uses a different SYMBOL for the same belief is "evil." At heart, all religions are the same. Live a good life, and respect your fellow man. If everyone followed those two beliefs, and those alone, there would be no more war, no more bloodshed. It does not matter if you wear a crucifix, a star of David, or kneel in the same direction.
I do not have a problem with anyone fighting against the American way of life. It is the American way of life to allow people to live as THEY choose. When we try to force them to live in a way we choose, we are destroying the very thing that makes this country great.
The problem I have with Islam is that they use their religion as an excuse, rather than stating what it is they are TRULY fighting for, and that is change in their country where women have equal rights as men. For the justifiable reason that they believe that it will lead to their country being filled with strip clubs and pornography, and other forms of corruption.
It is not the WOMEN who made such places possible. It is men, and our own weakness. If men quit going to watch women take off their clothes, then the women would keep them on. If a man believes he has a right to beat a woman for not doing as he says, for the sole reason that he is a MAN, then he is no man. A man is able to tak
Are we arguing? I was not aware. I thought we were trying to find some understanding between two people with different believes.
Perhaps my arguments seem vague to you because you seize upon any discrepancy rather than looking for truths that you can agree with. The steering wheel was meant to be "vague." I was using it to symbolize a much greater belief. Which should have been apparant if you had read the rest of what I wrote. The fact is that automobiles built by companies that are not American all began by building them with the steering wheel on the other side. If many countries use American manufactured automobiles, that is their choice, and other automobile manufacturers adapted to suit their needs. Just as Ford builds cars with steering wheels on the right Great Brittain. Many countries don't have laws on the matter, simply because they import BOTH sorts.
What side of the car a steeringwheel is on is not important. It is the view the greater world has of Ameri
America that I was trying to express.
Everyone turns to America when they are in trouble, or when they want something. If we do not rush to their aid, they call us heartless and cruel. They are forced to find their own solution, and then when we DO come, they say they don't want us there. If we come uninvited, to offer aid that was not asked for, they tell us to butt out. If one country asks for aid against another, which side do you choose? Whatever we do, someone is going to hate us.
They want to tear America down, but tell me this. What would they put in its place? Show me a country that adheres to a better philosophy, that has the resources, industry, and ingenuity, but not our ambition, and let them come to the world's rescue whenever a nation calls. Frankly, I'm tired of spending my hard earned tax dollars on countries that can't even help themselves.
The world laments us for spending more on the war in Iraq than on Tsunami Relief. Well who else spent as much or more? Who would bother to send aid at all if we were not here?
I just wish people would look at everything Americans have done to aid the world, and weigh that against what they percieve to be "injustice" before judging the American people as a whole.
It is our philosophy and belief that people are allowed to think and act freely, as long as their actions do not infringe upon another's right to do the same, that made it possible for us to work together toward a greater purpose, and not squabble over who has the prettiest necklace. These people are acting well within their rights. As are you to believe they are wrong in their beliefs and how they choose to display them.
It is NOT our right to ridicule, or infringe upon their rights. If you believe them to be in the wrong, show them Right, and allow them to choose for themselves which is right for them.
One of my posts was cut short.
"It is not the WOMEN who made such places possible. It is men, and our own weakness. If men quit going to watch women take off their clothes, then the women would keep them on. If a man believes he has a right to beat a woman for not doing as he says, for the sole reason that he is a MAN, then he is no man. A man is able to take responsibility for his actions, to exert SELF discipline before all others, and to lead by example."
Earlier, I also said, " If you want to convince someone to your belief, the best way to do it is not to tear other people's beliefs down, but to display your own in such a way that makes them better than those you are fighting."
If you cannot do that, than you have to ask yourself who is "right" after all.
p.s. (and I'm not just talking about this debate. That is a simple lesson of life. We can ALL be wrong. It's only by discussion our various views in a civilized light, without allowing emotion to cloud our judgement, that we can discover what is Truth, and what is something we want to believe.)
I don't get it. Why don't we look up the term "sef-righteous." Bang your drum. Raise the roof. Do whatever you feel is neccesary to make your point. Just as long as you always remember how fortunate you are that you can. Would the individual that started this thread have been equally as "disgusted" if it was held at the local sinagogue? I'm thinking that they probably would not have gone in the first place. If this discussion board is being read by anyone who has ever served the U.S.A, please know that you did not serve in vain. The majority of Americans have great appreciation for your service.
I don't get it. Are you saying that I don't support our troups? On the contrary. What I don't support are churches, governments, or organizations who think it is their duty to force their way of life on other people. You can create such an organization and allow people to join it, you can hold it up for the world to see, and hopefully emulate, but the moment "Democracy" is about "Making the World Democratic" it is Democracy no longer.
The men and women fighting our battles are only doing their duty. The majority of them joined the military in order to go to college, and better their own lives. It is not their duty or dedication that I question. It is the purpose of this war. Every reason we have been given by those in authority has turned out to be false. The only goal that makes sense is "Spreading Democracy." Forcing people to be Democratic is about as far from Democracy as you can get.
I don't support the troops in anything but bringing them home. We don't need to turn anymore young men into killers-something they will have to live the rest of their lives with. Some of my friends-vietnam veterans-can hardly live with themselves. Supporting the troops is bullshit patriotism, and bringing the military into church is sickening. Wake the fuck up people. George Bush and his tiny swinging dicks care less about your god than you can imagine, if he was truly a disciple of Jesus we would not be in Iraq murdering civilians. Whatever these people are, it is not christians, and whatever terrorists are, they are certainly not muslims, as neither religion condones the wanton slaughter of anyone. The ministers and whatever other name they use as representatives of god should be thrown bodily out of their churches for doing anything that resembles this kind of madness.
I leave you in disgust at your lack of wisdom and charity towards all
I would add to my comment the fact that these men and woman fighting in Iraq are fighting a war based on lies, and the fact of the matter is they are dying and being horribly injured and killing and horribly injuring others for that lie, in other words for absolutely no reason at all. The one thing that binds them together is covering the six of their fellow soldiers as is always what war is reduced to for those fighting it, and that is the only solace they can derive from this lie.
Please, turn away from this madness.
This would have made Hitler Proud. What has the Church of our Lord become? I am ashamed of these people. We have murdered innocent people in so many countries and the US. 911 was an inside job. www.reopen911.org www.karlscharz.com
To know this is going on in the USA is scary and sickening. These people have drank the lies of the devil. Bring our Troops home and stop the madness
ASasser
It's not fascism when we do it?
Fourteen characteristics common in fascist regimes of Hitler, Mussolini, Suharto, Pinochet, and Franco.
1) Powerful and continuing nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere as are patriotic symbols on clothing, public displays, and cars.
2) Disdain for the recognition of human rights
Because of the fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights and civil liberties can be ignored in certain cases because of “need”. The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, long incarcerations of prisoners without trial, etc.
3) Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived a common threat or foe: ethnic or religious minorities, liberals, communists, terrorists, etc.
4) Supremacy of the military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected.
5) Rampant sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high as is homophobia, and anti-gay legislation as national policy.
6) Controlled mass media
Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is common.
7) Obsession with national security
Fear is used as a motivational tool over the masses.
Religion and government are intertwined
Governments in fascist regimes tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies and actions.
9) Corporate power is protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship for the power elite.
10) Labor power is suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government. Labor unions are either eliminated entirely or are severely suppressed
11) Disdain for intellectuals and the arts
Fascist regimes tend to promote and tolerate hostility to higher education and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
12) Obsession with crime and punishment
Under fascist regime
12) Obsession with crime and punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13) Rampant cronyism and corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures, to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14) Fraudulent elections
Sometimes elections in fascist regimes are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and the manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also tend to use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
I guess I left George W. Bush out of that list above.
i am the soldier in the middle holding up the gun. by the way i am considering a lawsuit against you for using my likeness without express written permission
"Hmmm....lets use Jesus to support wars....hmmm....maybe the people won't realize it was Jesus who said "Blessed are the peace makers"....Lets use Old Testament quotes to encourage the Christians to sign up. Ahh..how smart!! "
Jesus did NOT say "blessed are the warmakers"
Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" ; (also "you can't serve both God and money)
This is brain washing pure and simple. Where did America get hold of this poisonous variant of the already very dodgy religion, cchristianity. Is this an example of the freedom we all supposedly hate you for?
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W kids today dont look at history like us is beyond me. I just dont get it. The basketball jersey stops here.
Anyway...have a nice day. Sarah
Yo colby, you were at a publicly advertised event inviting members of the public to attend. I'm afraid you are s.o.l. on the lawsuit dude. I AM wondering about YOUR participation in an apparent official military capacity at a church sponsered event promoting a particlular religious belief. Can you say Article 15?
I am sadly non-plussed by this event, however wrong it was. Living for 25 years in Cincinnati, I'd be surprised if this sort of thing wasn't happening regularly in suburban Cincinnati and rural Ohio even to this day. This atmosphere drove my wife and I nuts and lead us to move back West to areas where these sorts of people at least weren't wall to wall.
Speaking as someone who actually knows something about religion and politics (which the vast majority of you do not, whatever you think about this), you've got two separate issues. Theologically, it is, as someone pointed out, a serious problem to have the crucifix and other sanctuary items mixed with patriotic ones. This is not to say that the sanctuary couldn't be used, but it should be divested (stripped of all elements of worship) first.
This stems from a general lack of any concept of sacred space in American churches, and is a general problem in most of Evangelical Christianity.
Politically: I've never read such a pile of nonsense in my life. Fascism is neither left-wing nor right-wing, because it is nationalist, and nationalism is neither left nor right-wing (rightists like Franco and leftists like Morales are both nationalists).
Somebody pointed out that American conservatism and liberalism are both British, which is true, and that Fascism is from an anti-british continental tradition, which is also true. Generally, Fascist regimes either try to eliminate religion entirely or coopt it by denying or changing it's essential tenets. Such cooptation would be directly managed by the government, as was the case in Nazi Germany and currently is the case in the "three-self" church in China. This act was done by the church and not, to the best of anyone's knowledge, sponsored by any element in the government or military.
As Paul Johnson usefully points out in Modern Times, Mussolini was an Italian Marxist before he was ever a Communist, and many Marxists correctly regarded Fascism as a nationalistic Marxist heresy. This is antithetical to the Anglo-American political tradition, both conservative and liberal.
Was this theologically in highly poor taste? Yep. If I were a bishop over this pastor, would I have words for him despite the fact that I would also support the war and troops on just war grounds? Yep. Politically, is this problematic? Other than the appearance of propriety, not really. Are conservative Republicans cripto-fascists? Only the over-politicization of every aspect of life by left-wing ideologues (and those on the right who have reacted to them in kind) could cause normally reasonable people to make such ahistorically stupid claims.
Wow welcome to the forth reich.
"On ward Christian Soldiers!!!"
-Michael Chertoff, Richard Perle, Charles Krauthammer, Daniel Pipes, David Horowitz, Larry Silverstien, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Scooter Libby, Joe Lieberman, Michael Savage, Leonard Piekoff, Jack Abramoff...
As a Christian and a Soldier I take issue with this. It is one thing to hold a dinner in honor of the Veterans and servicemembers in your congregation, or to recognize them in the assembly around Veteran's Day. That is just giving them credit for their service. The military defends our right to worship freely.
It is another thing entirely to somehow equate Jesus with American. It was idolatry to post a gigantic American flag onstage, and then project a picture of Jesus on the cross! It is like you are saying the sovereignty of the U.S. is equal to the King of Kings. All nations are as the dust to God. They are like weeds that flower and wither in one day. Our nation is NOTHING before God, with all our nukes and Patriot missiles and flag waving marchers and aircraft carriers. To God alone be the glory.
With all due respect, that officer was wrong. It is against regulations to use your official position to back a religious or political platform. By showing up in uniform, and with his high rank, he is officially backing his own religion over and against anyone else's. That is clearly unconstitutional. It is also unethical. If you are a high-ranking officer, people should only know your faith by your lifestyle and maybe an inspirational quote or two on your wall. If someone directly asks you, or it is pertinent in a conversation, you can speak of it. Otherwise, you keep your mouth shut.
We servicemembers do not have freedom of speech.
I'm been a minister for over twenty-five year and I've been fighting against this dusgusting hyper-patriotic bastardization of Christianity my entire career. The church is no place for nation-centeredness. Nationalism is as much out of place in church as is racism. Neither can be justified.
Let's see if I got this right... A Christian church in the USA gives a free dinner to thousands of folks who voluntarily show up at an event which is promoted as a tribute to US Servicemen, and have a guest speaker who is a legitimate hero and Christian chaplain speak to the effect that Jesus Christ has had on him.
I suppose I would have a problem with that if I were an enemy of the USA.
As to the remarks of AnotherBeliever, the witnessing of your religious beliefs is not against military regulations, and in the case of a chaplain, it is part of the job. By the way, it is a Christian church throwing the shindig, you idiot. Who do you think they would have as a guest speaker?
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