The voice of him that crieth in the Bloggerness!
I suppose the concern might be more on the degree of devotion rather than on simply the matter. IOW, Protestants can be alarmed because in some cases it can look like a religion of the Saints, and not a faith devoted to God.
These things are very complicated, and it is easy to justify this or that with nifty theological explanations on both sides. But it has been my feeling that there are excesses, particularly in Central America, where the Virgin's popularity is out of proportion to her place in the life of the Church. Of course, even that is a subjective judgment. I've read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and it strikes me as being a much more balanced accounting.
Anyway, that has been my impression, that there is often a culturally based exaggeration of Marian devotion in Latino circles.
BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, I am a Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox) sympathizer, but attend an Anglican church (High Church though, so liturgically almost identical to pre-Vatican II Tridentine mass worship, sans the Latin) for family reasons.
This is trivial, but it's also true. We have two cats, and I let the older one in the house the other day, not realizing that a) she was carrying a small mouse, and b) the mouse was still alive.
Once in the house, she put her "gift" down, and the mouse quickly ran into a crevice between the dishwasher and the cabinet on which the kitchen sink rests. No way for me or either cat to reach the rodent back there.
My wife hadn't seen any of this, and I was reluctant to tell her that we now had a mouse in the house.
That night, I prayed to Saint Anthony, in the old Catholic rhyme, "dear Saint Anthony, please come around, something is lost and it must be found."
Next morning, I was first up, as usual, and noticed that the younger of our two cats was in our room. He usually sleeps elsewhere, but he was intently watching the baseboard. Turns out that he'd cornered the mouse. He and I were able to dispatch and remove the little critter very quietly. The alternative would have been fear and screaming from the womenfolk (mouse?! not just in the house but in our bedroom?!), so I was very grateful indeed, and said a prayer of thanks.
Funnily enough my most concrete example is actually of St. Anthony helping find my car keys. I never ever remember to ask him for anything but a few years ago was getting ready to leave for the office and couldn't find the car keys. Luckily we had a spare key and in an off-handed way I said, "Hey, St. Anthony, find those keys will ya?" (oh the lack of reverance ...).
Then I forgot all about it ... until I got to work, picked up my purse in a very odd and awkward fashion and there, tucked neatly in to a pocket I'd never noticed before, in "presentation style" were my keys. Amazing...
Hi Joel,
I see you over on the Challies site from time to time. Please remember this example as you ask this particular question:
In the Mormon church they ask people to pray that God will give them a "burning in the belly" if the Book of Mormon is true. Many people pray and experience this "burning" and conclude that God is verifying their request. I.E. Because their prayer came true it must be from God.
This experience brings this verse to mind for me: 2 Corinthians 11:14 "And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light."
I think it would be dangerous to rely on experiences or seeming answered prayers if, like the Book of Mormon, it does not line up with or contradicts scripture in any way.
That's a good point, Davey, and the Mormon example is an excellent one, but I'm thinking more along the lines of objective answers to prayer. As I said, Satan might give you a sense of false certainty, or a "feeling" of receiving an answer to a question, but do you think that Satan answers prayers for someone's deliverance from him? No matter how attractive he might appear, I don't think Satan heals sickness or leads people to Christ. These are the kind of experiences I'm thinking of.
Why wouldn't Satan do that? Simon the Magician in Acts certainly seemed to profit, so why not. I think Davey's warning is a good one, and ought to be in play even in the circumstances you describe. There is a reason Scripture warns that it is no profit at all to gain the whole world at the loss of one's soul. Satan doesn't mind us making some short term gains if it brings us to eternal loss.
I would like to add that I don't believe this to be the case with the Saints intercession, but it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand either.
I find the question you ask Protestants a bit odd, no insult intended. Prayer seems to be seen by many who consider themselves Christians, as changing God's mind-as in God was going to do this, or not do it. We prayed and He changed His mind.
That's not it.
You wrote "Think about this: If it is wrong to ask our brethren and sistern in heaven to pray for us, then it stands to reason that God will not grant those requests."
I think this misses the point.
If somebody praying improperly means God won't do something, then they would have some control over God.
Excuse me if I have misunderstood you, but there are people who wouldn't say it this way--but it is the logical conclusion of how they view prayer.
It's as if God says, "Wait-I can't do it that way-Fred prayed incorrectly!"
SO God will do His will in His way, and in His time.
If we don't pray--He will do it.
If we pray "incorrectly"-He will do it.
If we pray "correctly"-He will do it.
What prayer really changes is us. It humbles us and teaches us. It is an act of obedience.
Besides even if our prayers worked as your question states it-Let's say a Catholic prayed to a Saint & it came to pass. Maybe it wasn't his/her prayer. Maybe a Protestant prayed too.
Pilgrim, I'm not enough of a scholar to have all the references at hand, but I do remember that James said "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." In the context, he makes it plain that human prayers do change things. Exactly how that works in view of God's sovereignty is beyond me – I'll leave that to the theologians – but the Bible is pretty clear that our prayers have an objective effect.
And who is more righteous than a saved soul already in heaven?
Hi Joel,
I guess I was just addressing the idea that Satan can appear in a situation that might, on surface, appear good. Like the ideas of white/black magic. To the Christian - there is no such thing...as all witchcraft is an abomination to God.
But - no - I certainly don't think he would lead someone to Christ.
And I agree with your last point. We should pray because God tells us to. Our obedience doesn't contradict God's sovereignty. I.E. in OT Israel was in battle, and God told Moses to hold the staff. Seemingly two things at work: God's sovereignty over the outcome and Moses' obedience. If that makes sense...
God can and does use prayer to accomplish His will, but He does not depend on our prayers to accomplish His will.
Prayer changes us, not God.
It changes things when it please God according to His will and His pleasure.
Hopefully that helps answer your question.
Just the other day, I was helping my wife (who is Protestant) find her NASB. We'd been looking for it for maybe a week or so. She was about to start a bible study she's been working and I decided to try to help her find her bible really quickly before she started (she'd been using my NAB for the past week.) Quick prayer to St. Anthony, then the first place I looked, there it was (under the couch..)
So if it was Satan answering my prayer, it doesn't bode well for the NASB 
If it was St. Anthony (and God), he likes the NASB.
If it was only God, no St. Anthony, He wanted ME to read the NASB.
On the Protestant side, my wife's mother is in the category of "God's mercy on misguided but devout petitioners"
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