Are they a force for evil in Ireland's South & West, England, Scotland, North America, Africa, Australia etc too UI?
Disbandment is not the answer.
Ireland's tricolour needs to be scrapped immediately...the peace and respect between two traditions patently is not shared by many.
Time for a new Irish flag?
Stewart
"Are they a force for evil in Ireland's South & West, England, Scotland, North America, Africa, Australia etc too UI?"
The thinking behind the organisation is evil - commemorating the killing of Catholics.
"Disbandment is not the answer."
So what is?
"Ireland's tricolour needs to be scrapped immediately...the peace and respect between two traditions patently is not shared by many.
Time for a new Irish flag?"
The ones who mainly oppose the Irish flag are the OO's friends - the loyalists.
Time for a new flag? No.
Time for the OO to remove itself from the political stage? Hell yes.
Loyalists go on a rampage so the Tricolour must go, that makes sense.
I merely make the point that the concept of the Irish Tricolour has patently failed.
We all know that there will not be a "united" ireland under the existing flag.
UI,
I think you are very wrong about the thinking behind the organisation...it is incumbant upon the leaders within it to bring it back to what it stands for, or at least what it's "rules" for want of a better expression, says it stands for.
From where I'm standing, it looks as if the tenets upon which it was founded no longer apply. They bring shame on the Protestant tradition, as opposed to promoting all that is good in the reformed faith.
It needs to look closely at how other Loyal Orders have been able to compromise and find solutions in difficult circumstances.
It needs to do what it says on the tin.
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James II, King of England, Scotland and Ireland (1633 - 1701)
Portrait of James II, artist unknown © James was born in 1633, third son to Charles I and Henrietta Maria. During the Civil War he fled to safety in France before he became king after the death of his brother Charles II, restored to the throne after Cromwell's Commonwealth collapsed. He married twice and had many children: Anne Hyde bore him four of each sex before she died in 1671 and Mary of Modena bore him another two sons and five daughters.
Despite being a valiant soldier, James does not compare well with his brother Charles whose good nature won him sympathy. James did not share this disposition and he maintained a stubborn adherence to the Roman Catholic faith. Although his accession was auspicious - he was greeted with enthusiasm and stepped into a strong executive office, inheriting a faithful Tory-dominated Parliament - his determination to impress Catholicism on his subjects was ill considered and corrupted a sensible approach to politics. His zealous piety was to prove his nemesis.
He openly opposed the Test Act of 1673, which barred all Catholics and Dissenters from holding positions of power, and abandoned his post as Lord High Admiral and left the country. In 1678 he was the focus of a popish plot and in 1679 the Whig government attempted to exclude James from the succession but Charles dissolved parliament.
Within days of James' accession, Protestants were rallying around Charles' son, James, Duke of Monmouth, whom they believed should be king. The rebellion was easily quashed and Monmouth beheaded. Continuing his religious campaign, James had Catholics promoted to high-status positions while he appointed the 'Bloody Assizes' to execute, torture or enslave Protestant rebels. The Declaration of Indulgence (1687) granted tolerance of Catholics and non-conformists. In response, both Tories and Whigs turned against the king.
When, in 1688, Mary of Modena gave birth to a male heir, James Francis Edward (the Old Pretender), Parliament was provoked; this event scuppered their plans for James' Protestant daughter Mary to take the throne. Thus Protestant MPs allied themselves with Mary and her husband William of Orange and, sensing the threat, James fled from London as William landed at Torbay. Captured and released (with William's consent), James raised an Irish army against his usurpers but was defeated at the Boyne in 1690. He died an exile in Saint-Germain.The L
The Loyal Orange Institution was founded after the Battle of the Diamond on September 21, 1795. The "skirmish" was between the Roman Catholic Defenders and the Protestants of the area. When it ended the Protestants formed a circle, joined hands and declared their brotherhood in loyalty to the Crown, the country and the Reformed religion.
The first shots at the Diamond were fired by the Defenders on Monday September 21, 1795. The "armies" faced each other across the valley, the Protestants on Cranagill Hill and the Roman Catholics on Faughart Hill. The Protestants routed their enemies without suffering any casualties. The Defenders who were killed have been estimated at figures between 16 and 50. An eye witness put the number at 30. It had been the intention of the Roman Catholics to drive the Protestants out of the country.
willaim,
Is there a point to all this spam?
just to show that they are nt a force of evil. Your one pointed veiws are very upsetting. i just showed why the oo was formed and a little history for you as it was nt about killing catholics it was a war between family.the oo marchs one by one are being rerouted and i can see there frustration. i condemn all voilence against the people of northern ireland. as we have suffered enough.
Disbandment isn't really an option. What is more important is the OO being ready to enter into meaningful dialogue with Nationalist residents. Such dialogue could help prevent scenes like yesterday's but Orangism continues to resist.
William, "i just showed why the oo was formed and a little history"
That's all well and good. But do they stand for the very same things today?
Frustration over re-routing is one thing, tearing the city apart is another thing entirely. Shame on all those involved.
Stewart
Time for a new Irish(Rep) flag?
We're quite happy with it thanks. If someone doesn't respect it then that's their problem.
Would you prefer to go back to the full green with the gold harp? I hardly think that will be a soothing balm for the troubles. By changing the tricolour you admit there is a complete breakdown within all communities, the orange and the green. That there is no hope of resolve and future peace. Well I for one, do not want to give up that hope just yet, so I salute our flag and to hell with those who do not.
maca,
On this thread we have UI calling for the total disbandment of one of the cultures represented on the flag.
That being the case, it is meaningless.
As I said, the reality is that in the event of the island being "united", it will not be under a Tricolor....only someone very naive would think otherwise.
Unity would involve a "new" Ireland, of which a "new" flag and anthem would form an integral part.
"Unity would involve a "new" Ireland, of which a "new" flag and anthem would form an integral part."
Agreed, but the new flag cant be made now cause one side would just ruin it and make it undesirable to the other side, the new flag will come about when the decision is made to create a United Ireland.
The Orange Order is the equivalent to the Ku Klux Klan, a social organization based on tribal/racial/religous hatred.
It is a real eye-opener to see the vicious shenanigans of the past week taking place, after all the effort by so many to implement a "peace process".
There may come a day when the right decision is to ban all parades and marches by all parties for whatever reason.
This would be harsh, but equal-handed treatment. Perhaps the Paisleyite mobs, the Sunnis of Ulster, would have to think of something else to do, other than marching and proclaiming their superiority to the community that they are supposedly at peace with.
These murderous hijinks simply cannot be understood by others in Europe, America or Australia.
The Paisleyites have to grow up.
And there should be serious discussion of banning the Orange Order as hate organization, which indeed it is and has always been.
well if it is nt understood why do you commet on it?
Phantom,
Paisley is many things, but he is not a member of the OO.
Do you honestly believe that ALL members of the OO are hate filled bigots?
Regarding the right to parade, I support the idea that parades should only take place where they are welcome, or, where agreement has been reached with the local community.
This "We'll walk the Queen's Highway whenever and wherever we want" ballix does smack of supremacist keek.
BTW, would you consider the blatantly sectarian AOH to be a KKK esque organisation also?
Stack,
Why not change it now...we have people calling for the "disbandment" of one of the traditions represented on it?
I don't know much about the AOH in Ireland. I know that they exist here, but really only as a social organization. Do not think of them as a KKK type organization at all, as they are pretty mellow, and certainly not triumphalist, as far as I can see.
As far as they ( or anyone else ) being for any one group, incl any one religious group, that's ok with me. They, and the Knights of Columbus, and Masons and whatever, can meet with who they like and keep their secret handshakes and all of that.
I can't say that --all-- members of the Orange Order are bigots, but then I would think that all of the members of the KKK back in the 1800s were not hate filled bigots. In small towns, it was the thing to do, where people met.
But I see the Orange Order and the KKK as quite similar organizations--relics of a racist, triumphalist past that have no place in a modern society.
Speaking of the KKK, we have a " distinguished " Democrat Senator representing West Virginia, Robert Byrd who was a member in good standing of the KKK at one time. Now he gives great moral speeches to Bush and plays the statesman in the Sentate. Its quite funny.
Stewart McAfee
"On this thread we have UI calling for the total disbandment of one of the cultures represented on the flag."
The Orange in the Irish flag symbolises the Protestant community, not the Orange Order.
To say I'm calling for the disbandment of Protestantism is way off the mark!
but you want to take away the orange order. which has 70.000 members and if i recall there was nt rioting in every community in northern ireland
UI,
Why do you think "Protestantism" is represented by the colour orange on your flag?
Time to think of a new one.
but you want to take away the orange order. which has 70.000 members
its 50000 and falling
With respect, utter bollocks.
Here's a thought. I'm NOT in the OO, indeed I have critised them on many occasions.
My father - in his lat '70's IS in the OO. He is a church going harmless soul, who spent his life working amongst people from all religions, and I take huge offence at your generalisation.
The force for evil are those goons who insist that terrorists in Government represent progress. I guess that captures the Irish President, the Irish PM, and most of the Irish political class. Do I therefore label Ireland as a force for evil? You tell me.
Senior orangemen openly coordinating the attacks on police with masked paramilitaries.
Orangemen attacking police lines with ceremonial swords
orangemen attacking police lines with bricks and bottles.
orangemen removing their sashes before attacking the police
orangemen refuse to condemn the gunmen,bombers and rioters.
The evil goons who were filmed on saturday were the orange order
David Vance
Do not doubt that your father and others in the OO are peaceful folk.
But this organization's entire reason for being is to engage in triumphalist, provacative behavior, mocking the rest of the community. It's a force for evil.
It is an absolute root cause of the terrorism and troubles of Northern Ireland. It is the moral equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan and has always been so.
Do not know if Tra G is correct, in that the membership in the Orange Order is falling, but it would make sense that it be so. If you were a decent person who wanted to devote oneself to family and career, why in the name of God would you want to be a member of such an organization?
acually membership is on the increase in the oo it is around 70,000. It is no where the moral equivalent of the kkk, as the hung blacks and said they where monkeys and sub human, where as the oo just say you cant go to catholic church or marry a chatholic because of the roman doctine which says you must bring up your child as catholic no matter what the other parent is. the grand master actually condemned the voilence annd was saddened by the disturbances but he still blamed the police the same tactic s/f used to justify riots
David McNarry said on tv last night that orange order membership was around 50,000.
A few of them are even under 60 years of age.
i got figure,s from their web site but maybe no one know's exact figure but even so 50 ,000 a good number
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