You show disrespect for the british servicemen who died in that conflict .
the differance here is that the islanders want to be british and have settled there since 1833 . argie's have never lived there. so you want to take away something that they only lay claim to. no other reason it's people have said what they want so no argument there.
I suppose you think we should hand Gibraltar over to Spain too. 'Sod what the people who actually live there think, just make sure it's not run by them Brits' is your philosophy when it comes to disputed territory is it?
"...and is praised in history books,"
Bullshit.
Be honest UI; do you or do you not just hate the British?
william
"You show disrespect for the british servicemen who died in that conflict ."
I don't. I actually feel sorry for them that they had to be part of Thatcher's war games.
It's a shame the British took the islands in the first place. (That rings a bell)
Elliot
"I suppose you think we should hand Gibraltar over to Spain too."
I think the Spanish ought to have Joint Authority but that's just my opinion.
"'Sod what the people who actually live there think, just make sure it's not run by them Brits' is your philosophy when it comes to disputed territory is it?"
Not at all. I believe that was British policy actually? The Irish majority wanted out of the UK but the British said 'sod the majority' and decided to divide the island instead. Who cares though. We're only Irish eh?
"Be honest UI; do you or do you not just hate the British?"
I'm quite fond of the British like most Irish people. I just think that Britain's history is quite horrendous and that it has caused misery throughout the globe - like most people around the world think.
Funny how many territorial disputes the British have been involved in when you think about it. The north of Ireland, the Malvinas, Gibraltar, Israel-Palestine etc.
I guess that's the legacy left by bloodshed.
"It's a shame the British took the islands in the first place"
Did nt it involve taking them from spain and france as there was no argintine nation when it was colonised but no Argentians lived there so it was claimed like most uninhabitated islands and the people who colinised it their decentants now have the say on their future.
"I think the Spanish ought to have Joint Authority but that's just my opinion."
UI,
On what basis have you formulated that quite remarkable "opininion"?
"On what basis have you formulated that quite remarkable "opininion"?"
It's hardly "remarkable". He's obviously not the only person to think that.
UI, you display the worst kind of colonialist/imperialist attitude here.
You talk of a day when "peaceful solution will emerge for the disputed Malvinas" - compltely ignoring the fact that the people of the Falklands are solidly British and the democractic solution is to leave them alone as they are - under British sovereignty.
You talk of Joint Auhority for Gibraltar when well over 95% of the people of Gibraltar want to reamin British and have voted against joint sovereignty.
You say...
"It's a shame the British took the islands in the first place."
...what exactly gave the Spanish or their Argentinian descendents the right to take the islands? Come to think of it what gave them the right to take Argentina?
UI doesn't seem to care much about imperialism when it's done by an Argentine military dictatorship responsible for the "disappearance" of an estimated 30,000 of its own citizens. Nor does he seem bothered by the fact that losing the war was a victory for Argentina - the junta was discredited and democracy was restored. Contemporary Argentina is by no means perfect but last time I checked nobody was being thrown to the sharks from an army helicopter for disrespecting Generals Galtieri, Videla & Co..
"It's hardly "remarkable". He's obviously not the only person to think that."
Maca,
I believe it is remarkable. The overwhelming majority of Gibraltarians want nothing to do with Joint Authority. They are the people who count.
UI,
Would it have been better when Argentina invaded the Falklands for all of us to wring our hands and say,
"Oh well, we're surrendering 1,800 of our fellow Britons to a government, which has no concept of human rights, no compunction for murdering its own citizens but hey, that's what we get for our bloody colonial history"
Thatcher did what any other western democracy, worth the description would have done,
Gibralter the vast majority of people are British,Falklands the vast majority of people are British.
That's the only thing which matters, not history or worn-out debates about the legacy of colonialism.
However the British came by the Falklands and Gibraltar, the fact is the overwhelming majority of the people who live there want them to remain British. And I say this as an Irishman so you can't accuse me of being jingoistic.
Interesting the strong reaction UI's comments have generated. Friends of mine in Britain generally don't give a shit about Gibraltar (and especially not the Falklands). I assumed that attitute was widespread now.
In fairness, Spain is ridiculously hypocritical about Gibraltar given the position of Ceuta and Melilla.
The responses have been interesting Reg, especially since I wager most British people would struggle to find the Malvinas/Falkland Islands on a map.
Obviously the wishes of the inhabitants are paramount and I believe a peaceful solution to territorial disputes must occur in this day and age, but I just think it's dreadful what modern-day countries have to endure just because 'Britannia' required 'glory' all over the world in the past.
Reg -
"Interesting the strong reaction UI's comments have generated. Friends of mine in Britain generally don't give a shit about Gibraltar (and especially not the Falklands). I assumed that attitute was widespread now."
There was a fairly strong reaction among many in GB in both the media and the public to plans liad my a Foreign Office Minister (a Mr Peter Hain I believe) in 2002 to ride roughshod over the wishes of the people of Ginraltar and put the Rock under joint sovereignty with Spain.
Spain at that time took the colonialist stance that the people of Gibraltar shouldn't be given self-determination as this wasn't included in the Treaty of Utrecht - seemingly UI agrees that self-determination shouldn't come into it.
UI -
You say - "I feel bad for the Argentians over this issue. The Malvinas/Falkland Islands are yet another example of the terrible legacy that the British Empire has left to the world. They have brought misery, pain and suffering upon many nations, not just Ireland."
Do you feel sorry for the people of the Falkland Islands over this? A small people who simply want to be left to get on with their lives, left to be British, a small people who were invaded less than 25 years ago by a hositle power intent on annexing them, a hostile power led by a brutal miliaty dictator?
The Falklands War was a war of aggression and conquest aimed at subjugating a few thousand British citizens, led by a murderous military dictator intent to distracing his own citizens from the failings of his regime.
UI
"I just think it's dreadful what modern-day countries have to endure..."
Have to endure! You've got to be kidding!! Ooh, poor Argentina, has to hope with a handful of islands under British sovereignty hundres of miles off its coast inhabited by 3000 people! My hear bleeds for them!
And poor wee Spain too! Having to share a tiny border with a little British possession with 30,000 people in it, a mirror image of their own possessions at Ceuta and Melilla! How difficult for the Spaniard on the street that must be!
As for what you say here...
"...just because 'Britannia' required 'glory' all over the world in the past"
...it's not like Spain has an imperialist past is it? No wait, what's that you say, it was once the world's leading imperial power? What, that's how Aregentina was actually created, through Spanish imperialism? And that's why the Spanish control enclaves in North Africa? Who'd've thunk it!
Deary me, UI, it's almost like you're just being anti-British and trying to dress it up...
Mike,
I'm amazed you can't sympathise with the victims of British colonialism.
History is written by the victors though, right?
Regarding sovereignty of the islands, it's not quite as clear as some people here make out. Just to add to the debate...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Sov...alkland_Islands
The thing that always annoyed me about the Falklands is the fact that the islanders weren't even granted full British citizenship until AFTER the war. I always saw it as a war to protect the great British Empire rather than protecting fellow British citizens. Before the war these 'fellow Britons' were restricted in their right to stay in or even enter the UK yet suddenly they were worth fighting a war over.
I'm just bemused UI can write "I feel bad for the Argentians over this issue" without mentioning the 30,000 victims of a military junta whose reign of terror was brought to an end by their defeat in the Falklands War. What about their "misery, pain and suffering"? The day Galtieri and his friends lost was a good day for Argentinian democracy and human rights but a bad day for Argentinian flag-waving lunacy.
UI -
"I'm amazed you can't sympathise with the victims of British colonialism.
"
Niether modern Spain nor Agrentina are "the victims of British colonialism".
"Niether modern Spain nor Agrentina are "the victims of British colonialism"
Course they are. Look at the reaction of the Argentinians Mike.
They're hurting.
Unless as you say there's some sort of 'victimhood' for Argentina in having a samll group of islands 300 miles off its shore, inhabited by 3000 (British) people, under British soveriegnty. Poor dears.
Unless there's some sort of 'victimhood' for Spain in sharing a tiny 1.2km border with little 6.5 square km Gibraltar. And if there is, they better hand over Ceuta and Melilla.
Well excuse me if I don't shed a tear on their behalf...
"Course they are. Look at the reaction of the Argentinians Mike.
They're hurting."
Tough. They need to get over themselves and get over the issue. And realise it's up to the people of the Falklands.
Argrentina of course owes its existence to Spanish colonialism.
Just as soon as all white Argetinians hand over control of Argentina to its ingigenous Amerindian people, they might have some moral ground to stand on.
For a South American's perspective on the Falklands War, try Nelson Ascher, a Brazilian journalist who used to write for the blog Europundits:
"When the Argentinian military dictatorship invaded the Falklands in 1982, all my country's and, by the way, all the Latin American left backed the torturing murderers. Why? Well, because deep in their souls they were angry losers, descendents of the once great Iberian Catholic civilization, lusting for some kind of revenge against the new winners, the English-speaking Protestant world. Though they tried to depict it as some kind of class or anti-imperialistic struggle, their arguments were nothing but bull.
"At that time I told my leftist friends that Galtieri and his mob had made a dreadful mistake, because they made war on a country that doesn't usually lose wars. I also told them that what Argentina did was a good thing because it meant the military regime there would soon be over, as soon as the British Navy reached the South Atlantic. These friends didn't believe me: they thought that an army like the Argentinian, composed of untrained conscripts and officered by people who only knew how to shoot at unarmed political prisoners, had some kind of chance against the Brits. They were mistaken, as good old Adolf and, before him, the Kaiser, and before both, "l'empereur", that is, Napoleon, had been."
And:
"During the 1982 Falklands war a friend, after having spent some weeks in England, told me proudly that she had walked around London wearing a pro-Argentinean T-shirt. She didn't seem to understand that having done that unmolested was proof not of her courage but rather of England's traditional tolerance with dissenting opinion. Nevertheless she didn't accept my suggestion that her next step should be to go to Buenos Aires wearing a pro-British T-shirt.
"There had not been in living memory a war where the opportunism of one of the sides, the one that started it, was more explicitly patent, obviously transparent. Even so, that was not at all the way the Argentinean people saw it, and not only because they were blinded by old-fashioned nationalism. The censorship to which dictators subject the people became many times more rigorous there as the hostilities began. For the duration of the campaign, the Argentineans had no access to any source of information except their own government."
On another today blog, UI waxes lyrical of re-defining Irishness.
When one peels away the layers of traditional, mono dimentional Irishness, one is left with a deep rooted hatred of things British and of Britishness.
That is displayed on this blog.
Hello from Florida.
I've spent a week in the fine city of Buenos Aires in 2004, and recommnend it highly.
I was mildly surprised to see posters even then along the lines of " Las Malvinas son Argentinas " (sic)
As much as I like that country and its people, it is hard to see their case for recovering what had never been their national territory.
I won't talk about Gibraltar here. The Falklands to me are pretty much an open and shut case. I don't think that the Argentines have a claim.
And though I respect for the Argentine military men who were thrown into this unnecessary war by their govt, I do not understand why there is even an Argentine cemetary there. When it has been used, and will continue to be used, as a pretext for Argentine interest in the place.
Any memorials there would only be a pretext for an immense media campaign in Argentina re the islands.
The Argentine dead should have been buried in Argentina. Perhaps even now they should be moved to Argentina. It would allow for much easier access for the families, and remove a sticking point.
Argentina needs to start worrying about things other than some sparsely settled islands that are hundreds of miles off its coast.
Like developing a working economy, or properly feeding its people. I saw a lot more poverty in Buenos Aires than I would have liked, and much of the reason for that poverty is sideshows and adventures like that of the " Malvinas ".
Phantom
"I don't think that the Argentines have a claim."
Check the wikipedia link above for another view
Maca
Will do but will probably take until Friday. I have a 56k connection on the road here and I don't have the patience!
I agree with phamton why do they have a claim.
britain,spain or even france have more claim when it was not occuipied.
"britain,spain or even france have more claim when it was not occuipied."
I don't see how you figure that. Did you read the Wikipedia link?
Remember, Britain officially renounced its claim (Nootka Convention of 1790), Spain & Argentina never renounced their claim. When Britain came back [illegally, some would argue] in 1833 the island was occupied, they kicked out the settlers and took the islands.
i have read all the coments, and it´s good to see that people from far away countries know quite a lot about las Malvinas. As there are many topics of discussion, i have many things to say.
Firstly, the Malvinas War was a huge mistake from the dictatorship we unfortunately had at that time. It was clearly obvious that our country wasn´t well prepared to fight against a "First-World" nation. The only good thing i can see in it is that because
of that mistake the dictatorship was over. Then, why the British have to take control (illegally) of foreign territory? Situations like these ones
happen every day (not only with Britain), and i realise human beings
don´t respect among them as regards economic interests.
"Argentina of course owes its existence to Spanish colonialism." That´s true, but we got what we wanted: independence. And that existence was also with bloodshed from the natives, who became slaves for the Spanish. So, what i want to say is that wars are nonsense.
I think the cemetery must be there, just because it is a "call" to all of us to remember that episode and the inocents and inexperienced teenagers who gave their lives for the country, and say "this can´t happen again".
The Malvinas are Argentinian, not only because it is oficially known but also because of the geografical characteristics (as i studied them at school).
I hope British once for all recognise our claim.
Thanks very much for the space, althoug i found it quite late.
Hola amigos:
Dado que mi ingles no es decente escribo en espa
ñol-argentino. Este articulo aunque viejo capta en gran medida la estupidez de ambos bandos, y un poco de la óptica argentina; no me refiero a la estupidez de los gobiernos argentino y británico, me refiero a los dos pueblos, permitieron el horror; unos cegados por su honor y otros por reclamar lo propio. Argentina tiene un derecho antiguo sobre las islas desde 1830 ( antens también) y jamás dejo de reclamar (lean un poco de historia), tomar un territorio por la fuerza (y me refiero a ambos bandos) es un concepto de propiedad asociado directamente al colonialismo y a una historia antigua ya mal vista hoy en dÃa, mandar a morir a otro es un acto de cobardÃa inmenso, el problema es complejo.
Hoy en d
Ãa en mi paÃs están los que apoyan escuchar a los isleños y los que no, a ellos se les incentiva hoy en dÃa a permanecer allà y colonizar para reforzar la presencia en las islas, al mismo tiempo la presencia militar aumenta en las islas, lo sabemos lo toleramos y esperamos una solución. Hoy en dÃa es casi imposible que el gobierno argentino, sobre todo el pueblo, apoye y/o permita acción alguna sobre las islas.
Fuimos educados con la historia de reclamaciones deso
Ãdas por parte de Inglaterra. Nunca nos agradaron demasiado ya que intentaron en dos ocasiones invadirnos por el RÃo de la Plata además de ocupar Uruguay por la fuerza. Sin embargo hoy se los acepta, en general no creemos en lo que dicen los gobiernos ingleses pero si creemos en su pueblo, muchos de nosotros descendemos de ingleses. Miramos con recelo cualquier acción inglesa eso es algo que se han ganado por cuenta propia. Por nuestra parte somos buenas personas con gobiernos y gobernantes desastrosos, poco fiables, algo muy difÃcil de aceptar por nuestra parte y es por eso que en ocasiones no se lo hacemos fácil al gobierno.
Espero nos entendamos alg
ún dÃa ya que es imposible convivir solamente una verdad en las manos. La verdad no es una sola (la de un lado o la de otro) la verdad son muchas verdades, aceptarlas cuando se habla es de gente noble. No hay un solo lado, una sola postura, porque sino hay muchos muertos. Si debe haber una sola comprensión una equitativa una viable. Ese es mi deseo.
Saludos a Todos los que se tomaron el trabajo de traducir para entender
Gracias
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