Great post!
One thing you forgot in the multi cultures in Ireland is English-Irish – they are lots of English people moving to Ireland an embracing the Irish culture without a problem.
I think its time the unionists wised up and realized the dark days are over, for one they are confused about their own Culture but I am sure they sniff a United Ireland on its way and are not panicking.
I have many protestant friends and I love to throw the question “what’s your nationality or culture background?” and here is the option I pass them:
Are you an Orange man? In other words from Dutch Heritage.
Are you an Ulster man? In other words a Gael? Once a friend of Ireland? or just from the Scottish Settlers?
Are you Northern Irish man? Isn’t this just being Irish but in the North?
Are you British? Not even a yes for this, surprisingly
Usually I get the confused look for a couple of minutes then a brief answer “I’m all of them” – the easy way out of explaining ones culture!
The problem with people in England is that many don’t know exactly what all the politics is about in the North of Ireland as the news doesn’t really tell them much. I am sure that if the majority of them knew what Unionists/Loyalist meant in the North they would be horrified to be even associated with our little troubled land.
Britishness is an outdated concept anyway - an artificial constellation of 4 nationalities, one of whom opted out 80 years ago. How many Scotsmen describe themselves as British? BU.
Mat sadly betrays the ignornace of someone who knows a little but not enough to actually be informed. Look at his reference to a 'protestant ascendancy' -what the hell is he talking about?
UI sadly also betrays his own ignornace with his use of this term. Shocking historical illiteracy from someone actually from Ireland.
UI -
"As I said in the comments section of Mat's site, it's almost as if unionists have to prove their Britishness to themselves."
To be blunt, what the hell do you know about it anyway, Mr "I've been to Northern Ireland two or three times"? You've admitted you don't actually have much presonal contact with unionists.
"It seems clear that to the British people from Britain, unionists are an alien breed and are regarded as foreign."
Absolute garbage. I lived in England for the best part of three years. No-one and I mean not one single person, regarded me as either a foreigner or an alien.
Cormac -
"I have many protestant friends and I love to throw the question “what’s your nationality or culture background?” and here is the option I pass them:"
I'm sure they love being friends with a smartarse who wants to catch them out and invalidate their sense of identity.
Like the vast majority of unionists, I've have absolutely no confusion over my identity. In my case, I'm Northern Irish and British. Just like the aforementioned Mat is English and British.
Just because Britishness is able to accomodate diversity, doesn't mean anyone is 'confused'.
Which bring to me to what UI says...
"in Ireland, Britishness has remained an exclusive identity rather than an inclusive one. Many unionists for example have renounced their Irishness."
Strange then that this Britishness has been able to accomodate unionists who are Irish, Northern Irish etc eh?
Compare this to YOUR Irishness, which cannot even live with recognising my Northern Irishness.
The only Poll that counts, as United Irelander well knows, is a border referendum. I see Omagh District Council may be pressing the two Governments to have one soon, following a motion passed yesterday..hopefully this happens sooner rather than later.
Unionists don't have to justify our identity or nationality to MattGB, or anyone else for that matter.
It's very simple:
Unionists value the Union because they are British. No further elaboration is necessary, nor should it be.
I also think it would be a tremendous idea for an annual pageant through the streets of Belfast each 7th December, encompassing ALL those who cherish Northern Ireland, who celebrate it's breakaway from the "Free State" and who rejoice in our Union with Great Britain..."Northern Ireland Day".
Such an event each year would provide a focus for the entire unionist family and bring the important things that unite us into vogue. There has been too much unionist division and in fighting, which has meant that the unionist eye has been taken off the ball.
It's time for an event whereby EVERY unionist from Northern Ireland can show their pride in our State and our relationship with our fellow countrymen on the mainland.
UI, my apologies:
www.infactah.com/2006/02/i-am-me.html
"It's time for an event whereby EVERY unionist from Northern Ireland can show their pride in our State"
Love Ulster, perhaps? 
I ran several posts on how the sense of self-identity as "British" declines as one moves from England, through Wales and Scotland.
Citizens of the latter 2 counties would, I believe, regard themselves as primarily Welsh or Scottish rather than British. Only the English living in England might regard the 2 as interchangeable.
It would be interesting to have a poll of how many English in England see Northern Ireland Unionists as British. Speaking personally, I have seen very little of Unionism to be proud of in the blogosphere, to date.
At one point I would have thought that a shame, now I wonder if it doesnt actually have the image that it deserves.
"It would be interesting to have a poll of how many English in England see Northern Ireland Unionists as British."
Why exactly would you find it interesting?
Their opinion is irrelevant.
Until the majority of NORTHERN IRELAND, not Cornwall, Dublin or wherever vote for an all-Ireland state, then we remain legally British.
"Speaking personally, I have seen very little of Unionism to be proud of in the blogosphere, to date."
Again, so what?
If winning the "blogosphere beauty" contest means compromising my nationality and principles, then I'll stay British and despised (apparently) by the rest of Ireland and the UK, thanks all the same.
--Until the majority of NORTHERN IRELAND, not Cornwall, Dublin or wherever vote for an all-Ireland state, then we remain legally British. --
Gee, I don't know about that. It takes two to tango, and if the British do not want this portion of another country to be part of theirs, that is basically the end of the discussion.
Phantom -
"Gee, I don't know about that. It takes two to tango, and if the British do not want this portion of another country to be part of theirs, that is basically the end of the discussion."
This isn't a "portion of another country" relative to Great Britain.
And say the UK government did have the right to expel Northern Ireland from the UK (a right which if it ever existed it has eschewed since 1949), it certainly doesn't have the moral right to hand Northern Ireland over to the Republic of Ireland.
Paul:
That you disregard the majority opinion in the country to which you have such allegiance is of course telling.
Your attitude towards international attitudes to NI Unionism is sadly symptomatic of how unsuccessfully the Unionist case has been made and correspondingly how successful Nationalism has been.
All part and parcel of rejecting a Nobel Peace Prize winner in favour of a party in which jailbirds bigots and wife beaters hold sway.
Mike
"Mat sadly betrays the ignornace of someone who knows a little but not enough to actually be informed. Look at his reference to a 'protestant ascendancy' -what the hell is he talking about?"
Perhaps he's referring to the fact that Catholics in Ireland didn't have a vote until O'Connell came along?
"UI sadly also betrays his own ignornace with his use of this term. Shocking historical illiteracy from someone actually from Ireland."
LOL. How many Catholics were in Grattan's parliament? No Protestant Ascendancy? You're havin' a laugh!
UI -
"To be blunt, what the hell do you know about it anyway, Mr "I've been to Northern Ireland two or three times"?"
Um, well I live in Ireland and my country is pretty much defined on this very issue. 
"You've admitted you don't actually have much presonal contact with unionists."
Yeah, not many Dubs do. So what? Can I only form an opinion based on people I have personal contact with? This is the insular attitude of unionism I was referring to!
"Absolute garbage. I lived in England for the best part of three years. No-one and I mean not one single person, regarded me as either a foreigner or an alien"
I've talked with English people face to face on the issue (and I know how you love personal contact) and each one I've spoken to has either shown complete apathy towards the North or else wants Ireland reunited.
The polls back up my view.
Unionism is finding itself backed into a corner and it is lashing out rather than facing up to the challenges it faces.
"That you disregard the majority opinion in the country to which you have such allegiance is of course telling."
Once again Jo, and I will keep pushing this until it sinks in,
what my government, fellow citizens, the Irish, Brian Feeney, daily Ireland, Irish America,Mary McAleese, United Irelander and the rst of the UK/Irish blogosphere think of me does not change my Britishness one iota. If you say otherwise, please supply the evidence to back up your assertion.
The only people who can change my legal nationality are my fellow citizens in Northern Ireland in the form of a Border Poll. Again if you know otherwise, stump up the proof.
"Your attitude towards international attitudes to NI Unionism is sadly symptomatic of how unsuccessfully the Unionist case has been made and correspondingly how successful Nationalism has been."
Ah, international attitudes towards NI Unionism. The intellectuals in the Paris and Berlin cafes talk of little else than our little 800 years old squabble. In case you had't heard Jo, the news is that... we are no longer the news. The vast majority of the British( and I suspect the Irish) public also couldn't care less about us, unless there's bombs going off in their high streets or mad Willy is leading a bunch of loyalist nutters down O'Connell street
"All part and parcel of rejecting a Nobel Peace Prize winner in favour of a party in which jailbirds bigots and wife beaters hold sway."
Paisley doesn't speak for me. I cringe every time he comes gullering on about Romanish plots and the like.
But once again, the fact that he's our present Ranter in Chief rather than Trimble has weakened Unionism only from the point of view that it alienated (in NI itself)a large part of the Unionist electorate,who no longer vote. I doubt very much that "international opinion" has affected their decision one way or the other.
Jo,
"Love Ulster, perhaps?"
No, no, no...much grander than that! And, Monaghan, Cavan & Donegal would have nothing to do with it.
UI,
"I've talked with English people face to face on the issue"
You should talk to some Unionists/Loyalists face to face...it's they who really count on the issue.
Paul,
As a song I know goes..."....No one likes us, we don't care, we are British, always British and we will be everywhere"
UI
"Perhaps he's referring to the fact that Catholics in Ireland didn't have a vote until O'Connell came along?"
So why refer to the Protestant Ascendancy in the present tense?
"LOL. How many Catholics were in Grattan's parliament? No Protestant Ascendancy? You're havin' a laugh!"
I didn't say there was no Protstant Ascendancy in the 18th century. That is the correct use of the term. You've used it to refer to the 21st century.
"Um, well I live in Ireland and my country is pretty much defined on this very issue."
So by living in a state without a unionist community you think you know about the unionist community in Northern Ireland...righto...
"Yeah, not many Dubs do. So what? Can I only form an opinion based on people I have personal contact with?"
If you're going to pontificate about how unionists are confused about their identity and all the usual nonsense, then yes it might be a good idea to get to know some real life unionists.
"This is the insular attitude of unionism I was referring to!"
So let me get this straight. You sit there in Dublin and presume to know how unionists think without having much contact with any real life unionists. I suggest that if you want to comment with any degree of authority you'd need to broaden your horizons and engage with unionists on a personal level. You reject this. And it's ME who being insular? Bizarre...
"
"Absolute garbage. I lived in England for the best part of three years. No-one and I mean not one single person, regarded me as either a foreigner or an alien"
I've talked with English people face to face on the issue (and I know how you love personal contact) and each one I've spoken to has either shown complete apathy towards the North or else wants Ireland reunited."
Which has precisely the square root of feck all to do with what I said about being 'foreign' or 'alien'.
"Unionism is finding itself backed into a corner and it is lashing out rather than facing up to the challenges it faces."
I'm happy and confident in my Unionism and my British and Northern Irish identity, thanks.
If you want a united Ireland as you claim you do, you're going to have to start trying to persuade, accomodate and understand people like me.
You're doing the opposite - abusing unionism and unionists, gloating over what you see as any difficulties for unionism, trying to undemine or simply refusing to recognise British and Northern Irish identities in Ireland.
With attitudes like yours around, a united Ireland is a remote prospect.
Which suits me fine.
Though with attitudes like yours around, there's less change of reconciliation and respect between traditions, which doesn't suit me at all.
"Unionism is finding itself backed into a corner"
On the contrary, I believe it is slowly dawning on nationalists/republicans what exactly the principle of consent means, and, more importantly, it's ramifications (ie. No prospect of a United Ireland whatsoever, unless Unionists are convinced of it's merits).
The challenge to all of us is how do we move on from that reality peacefully and respectfully?
AFJ
"As a song I know goes..."....No one likes us, we don't care""
I think it's more a case of...
"Hardly anyone really cares one way or the other about us and we don't really care what the rest think!"
...but that's not really as catchy as the original is it?!
(btw Are you a blueman or a Latin scholar ?!)
Mike
"I didn't say there was no Protstant Ascendancy in the 18th century. That is the correct use of the term. You've used it to refer to the 21st century."
Actually you accused me of "shocking historical illiteracy" whatever that meant! My use of it in the 21st century referred to Paisley. I thought that was obvious seeing as he's a Reverend.
"So by living in a state without a unionist community you think you know about the unionist community in Northern Ireland...righto..."
Exactly. Good oul Bob McCartney felt he had a right to give his opinion on the Irish Republic's attitude towards protestants. I have no problem with someone who does not live here giving an opinion. We're not that narrow-minded down here.
"You sit there in Dublin and presume to know how unionists think without having much contact with any real life unionists."
LOL. Where would you like me to sit, Mike? I'm a Dub!
"I suggest that if you want to comment with any degree of authority you'd need to broaden your horizons and engage with unionists on a personal level."
How would I do that? Want me to move up the North do you?
"Which has precisely the square root of feck all to do with what I said about being 'foreign' or 'alien'."
If people who are supposed to be your compatriots don't give a damn about you, I'd say that's pretty relevant!
"If you want a united Ireland as you claim you do, you're going to have to start trying to persuade, accomodate and understand people like me"
Indeed.
"You're doing the opposite - abusing unionism and unionists, gloating over what you see as any difficulties for unionism, trying to undemine or simply refusing to recognise British and Northern Irish identities in Ireland."
First of all, I have not abused unionism. That's an absurd suggestion. The abuse has come FROM unionists towards my President and State. Second of all, I have not gloated. Where did I gloat? Finally, I'm not trying to undermine any identity. You are reacting far too sensitively.
"With attitudes like yours around, a united Ireland is a remote prospect"
Hardly.
By the way, yer man Mat is clearly not 'apathetic' and hardly typical of the average English person either - since his front page features his own redesigned union jack framed so as to exclude NI.
"How would I do that? Want me to move up the North do you?"
Therein lies the rub.
Life is easy in an ivory tower, free from division.
UI
"Actually you accused me of "shocking historical illiteracy" whatever that meant!"
It meant you had transferred an hisorical term to a context where it had absolutely no relevent whatsoever.
"My use of it in the 21st century referred to Paisley. I thought that was obvious seeing as he's a Reverend."
So, because Paisley is a minister (Free Presbyerian), this means the leads an Anglo-Irish Anglican landowning class based on stately homes and large estates throughout Ireland, and which controls an upper class Protestant Irish parliament? Bizarre.
"Exactly. Good oul Bob McCartney felt he had a right to give his opinion on the Irish Republic's attitude towards protestants."
And as you pointed out, he didn't do it with a great degree of accuracy.
"LOL. Where would you like me to sit, Mike? I'm a Dub!"
I'd like you to stop assuming you know what people like me think.
"How would I do that? Want me to move up the North do you?"
You could listen to people like me. Because at the end of the day we know better than you do. Just as you know better than I do about Dublin and Dubliners.
"If people who are supposed to be your compatriots don't give a damn about you, I'd say that's pretty relevant!"
If people don't care whether NI is part of the UK or not, it doesn't mean they see me as foreign. I wouldn't be overly vexed if the Shetland Islands went Danish, but I don't see Shetland Islanders as foreign.
"Indeed."
Wel it might be a good idea from your point of view to make a start.
"First of all, I have not abused unionism. That's an absurd suggestion."
Need I rmind you of various comments like 'maintstream unionism being based on the mentality of kicking someone unconscious'?
"Second of all, I have not gloated. Where did I gloat?"
It's implicit in a lot of what you say.
"Finally, I'm not trying to undermine any identity. You are reacting far too sensitively."
Right so you didn't try to claim that Northern Irishness is 'a lie' then...
"Hardly."
Well, it's remote anyway. Even more remote, let's say.
AFJ
"Therein lies the rub.
"Life is easy in an ivory tower, free from division."
Life is easy when you live in the greatest city on earth.
Mike
"It meant you had transferred an hisorical term to a context where it had absolutely no relevent whatsoever."
It had plenty of relevance.
"So, because Paisley is a minister (Free Presbyerian), this means the leads an Anglo-Irish Anglican landowning class based on stately homes and large estates throughout Ireland, and which controls an upper class Protestant Irish parliament? Bizarre."
This sentence doesn't make sense to me.
Mike (again)
"And as you pointed out, he didn't do it with a great degree of accuracy."
But he was entitled to his views.
"I'd like you to stop assuming you know what people like me think."
'People like me'. Tuttut. So narrow-minded!
"You could listen to people like me."
Earlier you insinuated only personal contact mattered. Which is it?
"Because at the end of the day we know better than you do. Just as you know better than I do about Dublin and Dubliners."
Who is 'we'? I'm an Irishman. I'm entitled to give my views on Irish matters.
"If people don't care whether NI is part of the UK or not, it doesn't mean they see me as foreign. I wouldn't be overly vexed if the Shetland Islands went Danish, but I don't see Shetland Islanders as foreign."
I would say if people actually want to be rid of a place that's supposed to be technically part of their country, that's fairly relevant.
"Wel it might be a good idea from your point of view to make a start."
LOL. It might be a good idea from your point of view to take views which don't match yours on board.
"Need I rmind you of various comments like 'maintstream unionism being based on the mentality of kicking someone unconscious'?"
Yes, remind me of that with a link and quote my views accurately.
"It's implicit in a lot of what you say."
Nah, you just react too defensively.
"Right so you didn't try to claim that Northern Irishness is 'a lie' then..."
Not in this post. If we want to nit-pick about things, let's remind ourselves of your condescending comments a while backtowards the 'poor nationalists' who want an inclusive football team.
"Well, it's remote anyway. Even more remote, let's say."
Not at all. Irishness is thriving and evolving.
UI,
Do your credability a world of good...take a holiday in Northern Ireland this year and make it your business to meet and interact with unionists/loyalists. I'm serious.
@ Mike. If'n you want to clarify what my views are, wouldn't it make sense to ask me?
Accusing me of "ignornace" (once is a typo, UI's quoted one of mine, twice is a differenct form of ignorance my friend) without actually checking anything out is a little counter productive to your own argument, seeing as I know to what I refer and am in no way ill-informed. I may be mis-informed, but that's different; feel free to correct me.
I'll put up a follow up post when I get the chance, but when I talk about a Protestant Ascendancy, I'm using it as a shorthand aside in reference to people like Paisley ranting about papist plots, to people such as those I've seen/heard interviewed on unionist estates who refer to 'teagues' in derogatory terms and to Orangement insisting on their 'right' to march and bang their drums through estates that don't want them, as a reminder of the events of the past. If you would prefer I used a different term for this catch-all, feel free to nominate one.
You are, of course, correct on one point, I am by no means representative; most people simply don't care at all, I care enough to think and write about it. I make no claim to speak for anyone other than myself, but I do know others with similar views, and UI points to a poll which seems to back that up.
@ UI: couldn't you have corrected that painful typo? I can spell (sort of) but never (ever) spellcheck, I rely on my own ability to proofread. Oh, thanks for the links, etc, I'll definately do a follow up, to clarify, I admin the site, but it's a group blog, Paul posts nearly as often as I, and tends to write longer, more considered posts.
I can't say whether your speculation is correct, and I've no doubt that some elements of Unionism have moved on, but others most certainly have not; as always, perception based on media presentation can be completely skewed, but given the number of votes Paisley gets?
@ Paul/AVF, you assert your loyalty to the United Kingdom, that's fine. I, repsectfully, disagree with you, and assert my identification with Great Britain. The westminster Parliament is, of course, able to amend any previous Act, including the 1800 Act of Union. I stated that it's not yet the time to abandon things, and I would never inject a sudden change (I've quoted Burke many a time) on people.
But it is time to look seriously at the future of the province, next ten/twenty/fifty years. I've no interest in maintaining the UK, especially given a significant proportion of those within NI also have similar views. I also don't propose dumping it all on the Republic.
I suspect dual sovereignty and autonomy may be the best model; it has worked elsewhere on smaller scales.
Anyway, this is a long enough comment as is; I'll follow up; hi all :-D
AFJ,
Anywhere you recommend?
Hi Mat,
I didn't realise you had made any spelling mistakes. I'm like yourself, I rely on myself to check spellings!
I personally think unionism needs to get rid of its negativity if it is to prosper. I'm not sure if it can actually do that though since, as you pointed out, Paisley is leader of the main unionist party and is perhaps the most negative man in Irish history.
MatGB
"Paul/AVF, you assert your loyalty to the United Kingdom, that's fine"
That's not really what i was asserting, it was more my British national identity which is a different matter.
I'm not loyal to my country whatever it may do( eg I was against sending in our troops to Iraq), BUT I am saying it is my country as much as it is yours.
"Ah, international attitudes towards NI Unionism. The intellectuals in the Paris and Berlin cafes talk of little else than our little 800 years old squabble"
Your contempt for the world beyond the "Great Wee Place" shows how utterly isolated Unionism has become.
I appreciate that you dont like R.I.P any more than I but his ascendancy and the collapse of Trimble marked the end of a Unionism that the rest of the world could understand.
Settle back of decades of declining numbers, declining influence and indeed the outvoting by your fellow citizens. And all because Unionists never did a damn thing to make Catholics think the Union wasn't a bad thing...is it too late? Perhaps it is. But at least you seem a reasonable chap if you concede that Im not an unreasonable gal
Jo
"Your contempt for the world beyond the "Great Wee Place" shows how utterly isolated Unionism has become."
I'm realistic.
I have lived outside NI for nearly 15 years both in England and further afield, trust me, politically we no longer register on the scale. Nobody that matters cares whether Paisley is "our" leader or not.
The only section of international opinion that still has any kind of interest in NI,Irish America( and even there it's on the wane) we'll never be able to satisfy anyway. And I ain't going to sacrifice my nationality and principles just for the sake of putting a smile on Father McManus's face
With regards your second point:
My own opinion is that in the not too distant future the political unionism may well be outvoted at the ballot box by SF & SDLP. That may or may not give it the almighty shake up that's needed for the UUP at least to modernise, I have my doubts. But that's not to say that at a border poll we would necessarily also get a vote for a UI. Over 37% didn't vote at the last election, that'll be people pissed off with Unionism, dissident Republicans and those who simply can't be arsed.
But the important thing is that the majority of the abstainers didn't vote for either nationalist party because in my opinion they're pretty happy with the status quo whatever their thoughts on the DUP or UUP.
These are the people who're important, they may not consider themselves as British as I do, but I don't really mind as long as they vote for continuing the Union!
"Anywhere you recommend?"
UI,
Lots of fantastic places:
North Antrim Coast
Fermanagh's Lakes
Mourne Mountains
Belfast
Strangford Lough/Ards Peninsula
Loads more...
Lots of choice.
UI -
"It had plenty of relevance."
Hardly. I see few if any features of the Protestant (Anglican actually, the use of 'Protestant' has always grated with me...) Ascendancy around today.
"This sentence doesn't make sense to me."
It should have said 'he' instead of 'the':
----------------
So, because Paisley is a minister (Free Presbyerian), this means he leads an Anglo-Irish Anglican landowning class based on stately homes and large estates throughout Ireland, and which controls an upper class Protestant Irish parliament? Bizarre.
----------------
"'People like me'. Tuttut. So narrow-minded! "
Erm, what's narrow-minded about referring to members of the unionist community in Northern Ireland as "people like me"?
"Earlier you insinuated only personal contact mattered. Which is it?"
If you've had little contact with real life unionists then you should listen to what unionists say when they disagree with your pontifications about them.
"Who is 'we'? I'm an Irishman. I'm entitled to give my views on Irish matters."
And I'm entitled to point out you have little to base them on and that I know better than you do.
"I would say if people actually want to be rid of a place that's supposed to be technically part of their country, that's fairly relevant."
There was me thinking we were talking about apathy, not 'wanting to be rid'.
LOL. It might be a good idea from your point of view to take views which don't match yours on board.
"Yes, remind me of that with a link and quote my views accurately."
"Not in this post."
Your views in other posts are actually relevent, amazingly enough...
"If we want to nit-pick about things, let's remind ourselves of your condescending comments a while backtowards the 'poor nationalists' who want an inclusive football team."
Actually I ridiuled your getting all offended on their behalf, and I'll happily poke fun at anyone who gets all precious about a UK under-23 football team taking part in the London Olympics for a couple of weeeks in 2012. But on a more serious note that attitude that you took does betray a serious inherent nationalist bias which manifests itself in automatically thinking "All-Ireland good, UK bad" and instinctively wanting participation of NI in a UK context to be banned.
"Not at all. Irishness is thriving and evolving."
I don't think it's going to lead to a united Ireland. And if nationalists want to, they needs to come to terms with an Britishness and Northern Irishness, as well as types of Irishness that do not see the Tricolour as the flag of that Irishness or associate it with the RoI state.
"And all because Unionists never did a damn thing to make Catholics think the Union wasn't a bad thing...is it too late?"
Jo,
I believe when push comes to shove, many Catholics (whatever religion has to do with it???)don't think the union is a bad thing.
Whilst I know many fellow unionists disagree with me, I am all for a Border Poll asap.
I believe it would be most revealing, and would help to bring some longer term stability in Northern Ireland.
I believe that many nationalists/republicans are living a lie fed to them by their leaders...that a United Ireland is within touching distance. Quite simply, it's not.
Once that lie is put to bed, and whilst respecting the wholly legitimate aspiration of approximately 40% of people here to want a change in the constitutional status, we can maybe start to move forward dealing with things that affect all of our lives....hospitals, jobs, social deprivation etc.
MatGB
"I'll put up a follow up post when I get the chance, but when I talk about a Protestant Ascendancy, I'm using it as a shorthand aside in reference to people like Paisley ranting about papist plots, to people such as those I've seen/heard interviewed on unionist estates who refer to 'teagues' in derogatory terms and to Orangement insisting on their 'right' to march and bang their drums through estates that don't want them, as a reminder of the events of the past. If you would prefer I used a different term for this catch-all, feel free to nominate one."
The Protestant Ascendancy was a class that had its heyday in eighteenth-century Ireland. It was an ethnically Anglo-Irish, religiously Anglican, socially aristocratic or gentry, landowning class with large estates across Ireland. It controlled the Irish Parliament in which only Protestants could sit and which only 'men of property' could elect.
How on earth is the term relevent to what you describe?
There's Paisley, whose religious views are on the lunatic fringe and whose political party may be the largest unionist party but which has little access to power and in a NI Assembly would be entitled to four ministerial seats in a cabinet of ten. I'd call him Ian Paisley. I'd call his party the DUP. I'd call his little sect the Free Presbyterian Chruch of Ulster. I'd call his poltical/religious tendancy (which these days is very much on the wane) Paisleyism.
There's members of the loyalist underclass on urban loyalist estates expressing sectarian sentiments. Hard to see how these people could be much further removed from ascendancy or the Asecendancy.
Then there's the Orange Order - or those members of the Orange Order involved in contentious parades. I'd call them Orangemen.
So you want a catch-all term for religious Paisleyism, underclass loyalist sectarianism, and contentious Orange parades?
I'm not sure there is one.
'Protestant Ascendancy' sure as hell doesn't fit the bill.
Definition in the OED:
--------------
Protestant ascendancy, the Anglo-Irish ruling class in pre-Republican Ireland, which became Protestant at the Reformation, as opp. the native Irish who remained Roman Catholic;
---------------
Actually they haven't manaed to get it quite right - they've confused the Old English and the New English elites; but the first bit is the relevant part.
And in Wkikpidia, usually a less reliable resource...
-----------------
The Protestant Ascendancy refers to the political, economic and social domination of Ireland by the class of Anglican landowners, Church of Ireland clergy and professionals during the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. The original Catholic landowners and aristocrats were dispossessed and disenfranchized in stages after various Irish revolts, as well as the more recent Presbyterian immigrants (see Plantations of Ireland and Penal Laws.
The class of the Protestant landlords and professionals were themselves gradually displaced during the 19th and early 20th centuries through impoverishment, bankruptcy, the disestablishment of the Church of Ireland, the admission of Catholics to the professions, to the universities and to Parliament, and the Land Acts that allowed their tenants to take ownership of the land.
Finally, after the independence of most of Ireland in 1922, they became a small, isolated minority in their own land. During the Anglo-Irish War, many of the Loyalist landlords had their country homes burned down by the IRA in retaliation for the government forces' destruction of property.
-----------------------
UI
"Yes, remind me of that with a link and quote my views accurately"
Ballsed up the link so...
-----------
In February, O'Neill paid a visit to Lemass down in Dublin. Opposition to O'Neill's reforms was so strong however that in 1967 George Forrest, the MP for Mid Ulster who supported the Prime Minister, was pulled off the platform at the Twelfth of July celebrations in Coagh, Tyrone, and kicked unconscious by fellow members of the Orange Order.
Charming bunch that Orange Order don't you think? This sort of mentality is what mainstream unionism appears to be derived from. This is what mainstream unionism is built upon.
---------------
Downright naked bigotry on your part.
By the way pity Cormac isn't about, as I'd like the chance to ask him about all this...
"I have many protestant friends and I love to throw the question “what’s your nationality or culture background?” and here is the option I pass them:
Are you an Orange man? In other words from Dutch Heritage.
Are you an Ulster man? In other words a Gael? Once a friend of Ireland? or just from the Scottish Settlers?
Are you Northern Irish man? Isn’t this just being Irish but in the North?
Are you British? Not even a yes for this, surprisingly
Usually I get the confused look for a couple of minutes then a brief answer “I’m all of them” – the easy way out of explaining ones culture!"
Utter drivel but sadly reflective of a certain type of nationalist superiority complex that revels in saying "unionists are confused about there identity".
Cormac, of you're out there, say hello...
" United Ireland is within touching distance. Quite simply, it's not."
I disagree and so I think would most of the NI population.
It is the perceived proximity of a UI which is why Unionists have voted for the more hardline option (despite there being no IRA violence) and SF are going to monopolise Nationalist representation within 10 years. One side fears a UI and the other clamours for it (in a romantic way, without accepting that there might be a negative economic consequence)
Mike
"Hardly. I see few if any features of the Protestant (Anglican actually, the use of 'Protestant' has always grated with me...) Ascendancy around today."
Then you're not looking hard enough.
"So, because Paisley is a minister (Free Presbyerian), this means he leads an Anglo-Irish Anglican landowning class based on stately homes and large estates throughout Ireland, and which controls an upper class Protestant Irish parliament? Bizarre."
No, not at all.
"Erm, what's narrow-minded about referring to members of the unionist community in Northern Ireland as "people like me"?"
Well if you don't know that then I really despair.
"If you've had little contact with real life unionists then you should listen to what unionists say when they disagree with your pontifications about them."
LOL. So until I meet more unionists face to face, I must agree with everything they say? No thanks.
"And I'm entitled to point out you have little to base them on and that I know better than you do."
You are seriously deluded.
"There was me thinking we were talking about apathy, not 'wanting to be rid'."
I said that the English people I had met wanted rid of the North or were completely apathetic about the place.
"Actually I ridiuled your getting all offended on their behalf, and I'll happily poke fun at anyone who gets all precious about a UK under-23 football team taking part in the London Olympics for a couple of weeeks in 2012."
Funny how when you do something it's 'poking fun' but when I do it it's 'naked bigotry'. Talk about double standards!
"I don't think it's going to lead to a united Ireland."
I think it will.
"And if nationalists want to, they needs to come to terms with an Britishness and Northern Irishness, as well as types of Irishness that do not see the Tricolour as the flag of that Irishness or associate it with the RoI state."
Well, this is arguable.
"Downright naked bigotry on your part."
Bullshit. Downright lying on your part. You alleged above that I had said:
"'maintstream unionism being based on the mentality of kicking someone unconscious'"
Yet when I ask you to provide the link, what I have actually said is:
"Charming bunch that Orange Order don't you think? This sort of mentality is what mainstream unionism appears to be derived from. This is what mainstream unionism is built upon."
Make up lies about me again to label me a bigot and I'll ban your arse from this site so fast it will make your head spin. And no, I ain't kidding. I'm disgusted at you.
UI,
Hissy fit all you like, but your comments would be perceived by many unionists as deeply bigoted, and very unhelpful.
I would accept that perhaps you did not intend them as such.
Mike did not make any "lies" up about you, and you owe him an apology for insinuating he did.
I do not know Mike, but he stikes me as an intelligent, honest, respectfull and robost contributor.
Perhaps a misunderstanding on both parts? I don't know.
But, if you wish to start banning unionist contributors of Mike's candour, I would suggest that you re-brand it as a "nationalist only" propaganda site.
Grow up and show some rationality.
UI,
I have to say also, even the very inference in this thread title is insulting.
Who the hell are you to tell anybody else what they are in terms of their identity?
I am Northern Irish, British & Irish. Why? Because I am. Deal with it.
You admit yourself, you have barely spoken to a unionist/loyalist face to face.
Kinda puts you at a disadvantage I would suggest.
UI -
"Then you're not looking hard enough."
Really? Tell me then, what indicates that the Protestant Ascendancy is still around today?
"No, not at all."
What's "not at all"? You really think Paisley leads some sort of established church landowning elite that controls the country?
"Well if you don't know that then I really despair."
Care to explain then?
"LOL. So until I meet more unionists face to face, I must agree with everything they say? No thanks."
No, but if you're going to talk about unionists, you should accept that they know better about their own identity than your assumptions.
"You are seriously deluded."
See, that's what I mean. You can't even accept that I know better than you do about how unionists feel on the subject of identity.
"Funny how when you do something it's 'poking fun' but when I do it it's 'naked bigotry'. Talk about double standards!"
There's a difference between the two things...most people would be able to see that...
"And if nationalists want to, they needs to come to terms with an Britishness and Northern Irishness, as well as types of Irishness that do not see the Tricolour as the flag of that Irishness or associate it with the RoI state."
"Bullshit. Downright lying on your part. You alleged above that I had said:
"'maintstream unionism being based on the mentality of kicking someone unconscious'"
Yet when I ask you to provide the link, what I have actually said is:
"Charming bunch that Orange Order don't you think? This sort of mentality is what mainstream unionism appears to be derived from. This is what mainstream unionism is built upon."
"
What you said, without any slective editing to remove half of the offending section, was:
---------------------
Opposition to O'Neill's reforms was so strong however that in 1967 George Forrest, the MP for Mid Ulster who supported the Prime Minister, was pulled off the platform at the Twelfth of July celebrations in Coagh, Tyrone, and kicked unconscious by fellow members of the Orange Order.
Charming bunch that Orange Order don't you think? This sort of mentality is what mainstream unionism appears to be derived from. This is what mainstream unionism is built upon.
--------------------
So what 'sort of mentality' were you referring to if not what happened to Forrest? You weren't trying to link the 'mentality' of 'mainstream unionism' to that incident. What exactly then were you saying 'mainstream unionism' is built upon?
Myself and Stewart took you up on this when you made the original post - you didn't try to deny it then.
And if you try to wriggle out of it by claiming you were only referring to the Orange Order and not the Forrest attack, don't bother. That would be blatant nonsense. You link the entire Orange Order to that attack in any case.
"Make up lies about me again to label me a bigot and I'll ban your arse from this site so fast it will m
"Make up lies about me again to label me a bigot and I'll ban your arse from this site so fast it will make your head spin. And no, I ain't kidding. I'm disgusted at you."
I did not make up any lies. If my interpretation of the comments was wrong, tell me what you did mean - though I can't see what other interpretation can be placed on them. And, significantly to me, you didn't 'correct' either myself or Stewart when we took you upon this orignally - when you had ample opportunity to do so.
Ban me if you want, it's your site. It'll be because you don't like being picked up on your periodic doling out of 'tar them all with the same brush' abuse of unionism.
AFJ
"Hissy fit all you like, but your comments would be perceived by many unionists as deeply bigoted, and very unhelpful."
"Grow up and show some rationality."
AFJ, your bad attitude has been tolerated by me for long enough. Consider yourself banned for a few days. A break from the site might give you time to reflect upon some of your comments towards myself.
For someone who claims not to know Mike, you've no problem interjecting and speaking on his behalf.
I suggest you look here in relation to the commenting policy on United Irelander and reflect upon your comments and attitude towards myself.
People are welcome to challenge me all they like but attempts to put words in my mouth in order to label me a bigot wont be tolerated, nor will any person who wishes to 'play the man and not the ball'.
Mike
"Really? Tell me then, what indicates that the Protestant Ascendancy is still around today?"
Ian Paisley.
"What's "not at all"? You really think Paisley leads some sort of established church landowning elite that controls the country?"
Um, no. How many times must I repeat it?
"Care to explain then?"
You can't look beyond a unionist viewpoint.
"No, but if you're going to talk about unionists, you should accept that they know better about their own identity than your assumptions."
I don't accept that is the case. They are likely to let emotive issues cloud their judgement.
"See, that's what I mean. You can't even accept that I know better than you do about how unionists feel on the subject of identity."
I don't accept your patronising views.
"There's a difference between the two things...most people would be able to see that..."
My comment was no more bigoted than yours was. If you label my comment bigoted you must do the same for your own one.
"So what 'sort of mentality' were you referring to if not what happened to Forrest? You weren't trying to link the 'mentality' of 'mainstream unionism' to that incident. What exactly then were you saying 'mainstream unionism' is built upon?"
I was not referring to someone being beaten up, I was referring to rejectionist unionism. I suspect you know that.
"Myself and Stewart took you up on this when you made the original post - you didn't try to deny it then."
I distinctly remember denying it when you raised it in the past.
"And if you try to wriggle out of it by claiming you were only referring to the Orange Order and not the Forrest attack, don't bother. That would be blatant nonsense. You link the entire Orange Order to that attack in any case."
Wriggle out of what? You are the one lying.
"I did not make up any lies."
Yes you did. You attributed comments to me that were inaccurate and insulting.
"If my interpretation of the comments was wrong, tell me what you did mean - though I can't see what other interpretation can be placed on them. And, significantly to me, you didn't 'correct' either myself or Stewart when we took you upon this orignally - when you had ample opportunity to do so."
More lies here.
"Ban me if you want, it's your site. It'll be because you don't like being picked up on your periodic doling out of 'tar them all with the same brush' abuse of unionism"
I'll ban those who repeatedly shy away from the issues to attack me personally. Yes this is my site and I deserve to be respected as much as anybody else.
UI -
"Ian Paisley."
Paisley does not lead any sort of ruling class, never mind an Anglo-Irish Anglican landowning ruling class. Neither does Paisley control a parliament for Protestant men of property, nor control a large estate making a profit from tenant farmers.
"Um, no. How many times must I repeat it?"
So what exactly does this 'Protestant Ascendancy' consist of?
"You can't look beyond a unionist viewpoint."
How exactly does saying that I have much in common with other members of the same community mean I "can't look beyond a unionist viewpoint"??
"I don't accept that is the case. They are likely to let emotive issues cloud their judgement."
Utter rubbish. Actual real life unionists know far more about their own identity and whether they're 'confused' than someone making his own assumptions.
"I don't accept your patronising views."
You ponficiate about the identity of people you have very little experience of, and YOU'RE the one being patronised because you're told they know more than you do about it? Strange...
"My comment was no more bigoted than yours was. If you label my comment bigoted you must do the same for your own one."
Anytime you want to ridicule someone for getting all offended on someone else's behalf about something innocuous, you'll not find me saying you're being bigoted. THAT is the parallel.
"I was not referring to someone being beaten up, I was referring to rejectionist unionism. I suspect you know that."
No I do not know that. You referred to a physical assault on a Unionist MP by some who disagreed with his politics then said this was the mentality mainstream unionism is built on.
"I distinctly remember denying it when you raised it in the past."
Here's what was said:
---------------------
"Yor referred to Orangemen attacking a Unionist MP in 1967 for supporting the Unionist Prime MInister. (How is that you criticising "people that were looked to for leadership in unionist circles" by the way??). You then claimed "This sort of mentality is what mainstream unionism appears to be derived from. This is what mainstream unionism is built upon."
Yeah. What of it? Ian Paisley is the leader of unionism right now. Clearly mainstream unionism is represented by a bigot.
"You explicitly link the political ideology, the 'mentality' of every single 'mainstream' unionist to that attack - attempting to demonise all present-day 'mainstream' unionists."
I linked how bigotry of the past is still very much alive here in the present and I make no apology for stating that truth!
-------------------
I don't see any clear denial there.
"Yes you did. You attributed comments to me that were inaccurate and insulting."
The comments I attribute accord with the actual quote I provided.
"More lies here"
See above.
"I'll ban those who repeatedly shy away from the issues to attack me personally."
I haven't shied away fr
I haven't shied away from any issue. And neother am I going to let you dole out unwarranted blanket abuse, whether it be on unionists, NI football fans or whoever.
"Yes this is my site and I deserve to be respected as much as anybody else."
You should also show some respect.
"For someone who claims not to know Mike, you've no problem interjecting and speaking on his behalf."
AFJ does not know me. To the best of my knowledge we've never met. I'm hardly surprised he and I agree on many issues since we're part of two groups you like to denigrate (unionists and NI fans), and hold broadly similar unionist views in terms of rejecting Paisleyism. I think you've done yourself and your site a great disservice by banning him.
"I have to say also, even the very inference in this thread title is insulting.
Who the hell are you to tell anybody else what they are in terms of their identity?
I am Northern Irish, British & Irish. Why? Because I am. Deal with it.
You admit yourself, you have barely spoken to a unionist/loyalist face to face.
Kinda puts you at a disadvantage I would suggest."
I agree with what AFJ says here.
Though I woud've liked to ask him, why the identification with Irishness? What is this Irishness?
But I can't...
Mike
"Paisley does not lead any sort of ruling class, never mind an Anglo-Irish Anglican landowning ruling class. Neither does Paisley control a parliament for Protestant men of property, nor control a large estate making a profit from tenant farmers."
So? I still consider the words I used valid and I stand by them.
"So what exactly does this 'Protestant Ascendancy' consist of?"
Dominance.
"How exactly does saying that I have much in common with other members of the same community mean I "can't look beyond a unionist viewpoint"??
You initially said, "I'd like you to stop assuming you know what people like me think."
You speak for all unionists, do you?
"Utter rubbish. Actual real life unionists know far more about their own identity and whether they're 'confused' than someone making his own assumptions."
Unionism and nationalism go hand in hand. A nationalist can know plenty about unionism and vice versa.
"You ponficiate about the identity of people you have very little experience of, and YOU'RE the one being patronised because you're told they know more than you do about it? Strange..."
You feel patronised when someone gives their opinions, do you? If so, seek help.
"No I do not know that. You referred to a physical assault on a Unionist MP by some who disagreed with his politics then said this was the mentality mainstream unionism is built on."
You seized on that particular incident, not me. Your agenda is obvious.
"I don't see any clear denial there."
You don't?!
"The comments I attribute accord with the actual quote I provided."
They don't.
"I haven't shied away from any issue. And neother am I going to let you dole out unwarranted blanket abuse, whether it be on unionists, NI football fans or whoever."
I don't engage in personal abuse towards anyone unlie others so your moral rants are unnecessary.
"You should also show some respect."
I do. You do not.
"AFJ does not know me. To the best of my knowledge we've never met."
I don't believe that for a second but no matter.
"I think you've done yourself and your site a great disservice by banning him."
He done himself a great disservice through his attitude.
UI -
"So? I still consider the words I used valid and I stand by them."
The phrase 'Protestant Ascendancy' refer to a specific social class in a specific position of power at a specific time. It does not apply to twenty first century Northern Ireland.
"Dominance."
Neither Paisely nor the DUP has dominance in Northern Ireland.
You may think Paisley aims for Protestant dominance, he probably would if he could get away with it - this does not equal a 'Protestant Ascendancy'.
"
"How exactly does saying that I have much in common with other members of the same community mean I "can't look beyond a unionist viewpoint"??
You initially said, "I'd like you to stop assuming you know what people like me think."
You speak for all unionists, do you?"
No. But I know a fair bit about their worldview.
"Unionism and nationalism go hand in hand. A nationalist can know plenty about unionism and vice versa."
Sadly that isn't true either way round.
"You feel patronised when someone gives their opinions, do you? If so, seek help."
When someone dictates an identity to someone else and assumes they know better without having any experience, then they are being patronised.
"You seized on that particular incident, not me. Your agenda is obvious."
My agenda is to stop the unwarranted abuse. You wre the one who palced that incident side by side with 'the mentality mainsteam unionism is built on'.
"You don't?!"
No.
"I don't engage in personal abuse towards anyone unlie others so your moral rants are unnecessary."
You abuse is more blanket than personal, that is true.
"
"AFJ does not know me. To the best of my knowledge we've never met."
I don't believe that for a second but no matter."
Call me a liar all you want, but the fact remains I do not know AFJ and neither of us have knowingly met the other.
"He done himself a great disservice through his attitude"
All he's done is chided you for your attitude.
It seems to me you don't like him taking issue with your views as he does regularly, or highlighting your bias.
Mike
"The phrase 'Protestant Ascendancy' refer to a specific social class in a specific position of power at a specific time. It does not apply to twenty first century Northern Ireland."
(sigh) It was an analogy. Get over it.
"Neither Paisely nor the DUP has dominance in Northern Ireland."
You might want to check recent election results, specifically the performance of the UUP.
"You speak for all unionists, do you?"
"No. But I know a fair bit about their worldview."
There you go again. 'Their worldview', what makes you a spokesperson for unionists?
"Sadly that isn't true either way round."
Says you. I say otherwise.
"When someone dictates an identity to someone else and assumes they know better without having any experience, then they are being patronised."
No one dictated anything to you about your identity. If you can't handle a site that challenges viewpoints on nationalism and unionism then I suggest you find a site somewhere else where you don't feel patronised by different views.
"My agenda is to stop the unwarranted abuse."
No, it is to sidetrack the main issues.
"No."
Then your observation was poor.
"Call me a liar all you want, but the fact remains I do not know AFJ and neither of us have knowingly met the other."
Three letters - OWC. I'll say no more.
"All he's done is chided you for your attitude.
"It seems to me you don't like him taking issue with your views as he does regularly, or highlighting your bias."
Nonsense. Here are some of his remarks towards me in recent days:
"Do your credability a world of good...take a holiday in Northern Ireland this year and make it your business to meet and interact with unionists/loyalists. I'm serious.
How this was relevant to the thread, I do not know.
Me: "How would I do that? Want me to move up the North do you?"
AFJ: "Therein lies the rub.
"Life is easy in an ivory tower, free from division."
More insults and shit stirring.
"I think it's more than the DUP are bigoted. This ridiculous thread would give evidence to that."
Very poor indeed.
This was on the Fun Irelander Feature thread. Apparently humour is not acceptable either.
And the straw that broke the camel's back:
"Hissy fit all you like, but your comments would be perceived by many unionists as deeply bigoted, and very unhelpful."
"Grow up and show some rationality."
I wonder how many site owners would put up with this? Also, if you are so against blanket abuse, one wonders why you didn't speak out against these comments...
Anyone who disrespects anyone on this site will be dealt with. Most are respectful by nature thankfully.
UI -
"(sigh) It was an analogy. Get over it."
A very poor analogy, given that there's little that is analogous between the Protestant Ascendancy and the DUP.
"
"Neither Paisely nor the DUP has dominance in Northern Ireland."
You might want to check recent election results, specifically the performance of the UUP."
The DUP having a majority of the unionist vote, or a plurality of the overall vote, doesn't mean the DUP has 'dominance' in NI. It like SF has a veto over political progress - other than that, it has power in a few areas to have the bins collected and a few parks maintained.
"There you go again. 'Their worldview', what makes you a spokesperson for unionists?"
Nothing. I am a unionist and know a little about my fellow unionists.
"No one dictated anything to you about your identity."
Apart from you sayin my identity was a lie.
"If you can't handle a site that challenges viewpoints on nationalism and unionism then I suggest you find a site somewhere else where you don't feel patronised by different views."
Challenging viewpoints I am happy with. Doling out abuse and trooting things out that fly in the face of fact, I don't like.
"No, it is to sidetrack the main issues. "
Yep, I've really shied away from the big issues, haven't I...
"Three letters - OWC. I'll say no more."
So you think that beause both myself and AFJ have signed up to a website that has something like 800 members, we must know each other and that he and I are both lying? Bizarre view.
Indeed I'd challenge you to find even instances of me communicating with him on that basis or any other basis on OWC.
"
"All he's done is chided you for your attitude.
"It seems to me you don't like him taking issue with your views as he does regularly, or highlighting your bias."
Nonsense. Here are some of his remarks towards me in recent days:
"Do your credability a world of good...take a holiday in Northern Ireland this year and make it your business to meet and interact with unionists/loyalists. I'm serious.
How this was relevant to the thread, I do not know.
Me: "How would I do that? Want me to move up the North do you?"
AFJ: "Therein lies the rub.
"Life is easy in an ivory tower, free from division."
More insults and shit stirring.
"I think it's more than the DUP are bigoted. This ridiculous thread would give evidence to that."
Very poor indeed.
This was on the Fun Irelander Feature thread. Apparently humour is not acceptable either.
And the straw that broke the camel's back:
"Hissy fit all you like, but your comments would be perceived by many unionists as deeply bigoted, and very unhelpful."
"Grow up and show some rationality."
I wonder how many site owners would put up with this? Also, if you are so against blanket abuse, one wonders why you didn't speak out against these comments..."
I didn't speak out against them because they
I didn't speak out against them because they're not blanket abuse and I agree with most of them.
Upbrading you for your attitude is very mild criticism in fact, and advising you to holiday in Northern Ireland is nothing less than perfectly acceptable.
Mike
"A very poor analogy, given that there's little that is analogous between the Protestant Ascendancy and the DUP."
It was a super analogy! Yeah!
"The DUP having a majority of the unionist vote, or a plurality of the overall vote, doesn't mean the DUP has 'dominance' in NI."
Course they're dominant. The UUP were practically annihilated last time.
"Nothing. I am a unionist and know a little about my fellow unionists."
If you know a little, stop speaking like you know everything.
"Apart from you sayin my identity was a lie."
This old chestnut again...
"Challenging viewpoints I am happy with. Doling out abuse and trooting things out that fly in the face of fact, I don't like."
Glad to hear it.
"Yep, I've really shied away from the big issues, haven't I..."
Yes. Your pedantry is disappointing.
"So you think that beause both myself and AFJ have signed up to a website that has something like 800 members, we must know each other and that he and I are both lying? Bizarre view."
LOL. Whatever Mike. I'm not buying what you're trying to sell.
"I didn't speak out against them because they're not blanket abuse and I agree with most of them."
So you're selective about speaking out against abuse. OK...
"Upbrading you for your attitude is very mild criticism in fact, and advising you to holiday in Northern Ireland is nothing less than perfectly acceptable."
They were ad hominem attacks. Some were veiled, some were not but all were unacceptable. Anyway, I'm not going to go on and on about it any more.
I remember Ali G interviewed Sammy Wilson on his show a few years back, and he asked him something to this effect:
" so you is Irish then?"
Wilson replied "I'm British" and Ali retorted with " Are you on 'oliday here then?"
CLASSIC
Oh dear, I thought this was going to be an interesting discussion. One red card, one yellow?
.
UI -
"It was a super analogy! Yeah!"
Except that there was no analogy in terms of social class, political power, religious outlook, holding of property, or geographical range. Hmm...
"Course they're dominant. The UUP were practically annihilated last time."
Once again, all that makes them is the largest party and the majority unionist party. They do not 'dominate' NI. They in fact have very little power - at the minute like SF all they have is a veto power on Strand One.
"If you know a little, stop speaking like you know everything."
I was using understatement...a quintessentially British trait, some might say...
"LOL. Whatever Mike. I'm not buying what you're trying to sell."
I'll repeat again. I don't know AFJ. If you think you can find any evidence at all to the contrary among my or his posts on OWC, be my guest...
"So you're selective about speaking out against abuse. OK..."
No, I didn't think it was abuse.
A few words to all those who like to claim that people in GB 'don't see people from NI as British'.
Have you been watching the coverage of Martin O'Neill and the England job in recent days?
A senior FA figure said that there should be a British manager (note he said British not English) - this was widely taken as meaning former Northern Ireland captain Martin O'Neill.
The presenter of Football Focus said "and when you mention a British manager, you automatically think of Martin O'Neill".
The Mail on Sunday quoted him in the sports opinion column and featured a cartoon of O'Neill taking off a NI tracksuit to reveal an England shirt.
The News of the World sports opinion column also said it was clear O'Neill was the British manager but criticised the FA spokesman for pandering to the anti-foreigner brigade for saying that British or English made no difference in a manager to him. He pointed out that no-one congratulated Sven on his part in a great night for British football when NI beat England.
Now I don't know whether Martin O'Neill sees himself as British. But clearly all of the above instinctively made the identification of a Northern Irish person as British.
Slightly off topic, but I think Martin O'Neill would make an excellent England manager, but is he not on long-term sabbatical because of his wife's illness?
Mike,
My latest post seems to contradict you.
As for AFJ,
Ban lifted.
"My latest post seems to contradict you. "
It doesn't at all. People referring to a UK team as 'Great Britain' as a means of shorthand has aobsolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether they regard people from NI as British.
Indeed one could argue that they naturally just see NI as part of the British state they refer to as 'GB'...
I'm sorry if someone has already said this (I'm in work and don't have time to read through the entiere conversation to date) but I think sometimes that we have no business trying to persuade Unionists to want a UI, which is completely against their beliefs. I think we should spend more time making sure they understand that it wouldn't be a threat to them in any way. We should be persuading people that don't care either way, basically to blunt the point, protestants. I've no interest in trying to convert a unionist, but then not every protestant is a unionist, which I know from personal contact and experience...
Commenting by HaloScan
