"We bleed that the nation may live. I die that the nation may live. Damn your concessions England, we want our country."
A 'concession' was offered in 1921 by Westminster and accepted by those of a similar mind-set to the group that will be marching on Easter Sunday next : you apparently support and agree with the seven signatories AND the group which will be marching next Sunday .
Can one have two masters ?
"Can one have two masters ?"
Sharon, I would suggest that your master is history.
I don't have any masters. While I personally disagree with the decision to sign the Treaty in 1921, it happened and Ireland has evolved from that point.
It's a shame other so-called republicans remain stuck in that period though.
As much as I think FF cannot claim to be republicans and that their politics is as far removed from the radicalism of 1916 as it is possible to be, I still think republicans of all shades should embrace this event on Sunday and get involved.
Sharon, that concession was not on offer in 1916 remember. I would argue as would many that 1916 ultimately lead to the 1921 Treaty.
Unfortunately, for many in Ireland,1916 represents unfinished business.
However, all of us should remember them with pride.
Lets not get into name calling about who is a republican and who is not.
All shades of opinion on this island are, in some way, influenced by 1922.
The Rising is one event we can agree on.
Hi all !
"Sharon, I would suggest that your master is history."
I am not 'enslaved' by the subject , 'UI' , if that is what you mean . No more than you are . Like yourself , I have an interest in that subject . Would you accept that , because of your interest in the matter , you are 'enslaved' by Irish history ?
"I don't have any masters. While I personally disagree with the decision to sign the Treaty in 1921, it happened and Ireland has evolved from that point."
Would you agree that the effects of signing that Treaty are still , unfortunately , being felt today ? What is so great about 'evolving' when the pain evolves with you ?
"It's a shame other so-called republicans remain stuck in that period though."
Fianna Fail are the 'so-called' republicans , 'UI' , not RSF . We commemorate the Easter Rising each year , not just when it is 'sexy' to do so .
You have attempted to 'explain' away your contradictory position re what was fought for in 1916 and those 'commemorating' same next Sunday .
Hi Brian !
"Sharon, that concession was not on offer in 1916 remember."
My point was that it was not what was being fought for .
" I would argue as would many that 1916 ultimately lead to the 1921 Treaty."
Again - it was not what the men and women shouldered arms for . "Damn your concessions... " , remember ?
Hi Observer !
" The Rising is one event we can agree on."
That it was a worthwhile and necessary occurrence , yes. It is those that have accepted the 'concession' yet praise the men and women of 1916 (who did not want any concessions) that I do not agree with .
Sharon .
Sharon
"Would you accept that , because of your interest in the matter , you are 'enslaved' by Irish history ?"
It's one thing taking an interest in history, but it's quite another to apply principles held in those days to the modern era. Don't you agree?
"Would you agree that the effects of signing that Treaty are still , unfortunately , being felt today ?"
No, the only effect of signing the Treaty still felt is Partition but that can be resolved in due course through democracy.
"What is so great about 'evolving' when the pain evolves with you ?"
Because you learn to find better ways of treating that pain.
"Fianna Fail are the 'so-called' republicans , 'UI' , not RSF . We commemorate the Easter Rising each year , not just when it is 'sexy' to do so ."
RSF did not condemn the attacks on the marchers who paraded in Dublin in February. Republicanism involves all traditions in Ireland, not just those of the green variety. They are about as Republican as Stalin's USSR was.
"You have attempted to 'explain' away your contradictory position re what was fought for in 1916 and those 'commemorating' same next Sunday ."
There is no contradiction. That is what I explained to you.
Sharon,
How can we not accept the concession? We are where we are, what the men and women of 1916 fought far can still come about.
I agree with Observer that all shades should celebrate this together and not look for division.
I must pop over to 1169 soon, lest I be castigated again for ignoring your blog! 
Sharon
I am one of those who regards 1916 as unfinished business.
I am, however, delighted that so many who do not see it that way are showing an interest in the event.
Raising the issue will, hopefully, generate a debate amongst people who have little, or no, understanding of why we are where we are at the moment.
Surely increased awareness is beneficial to the continuing struggle to achieve the Republic aspired to by the men of 1916.
RSF . We commemorate the Easter Rising each year , not just when it is 'sexy' to do so .
Indeed they do, one man, his dog and a trumpet and then they return to the safety of their barstools.
The Republic proclaimed until the same time next year.
I remember cleaning up the Republican plot in my local graveyard for Easter, painting flag pole etc and the RSF rep had ducked and dived bewteen headstones in order to lay the wreathe while I was off having a smoke.
Oh, to be a true Republican like those in RSF.
Imagine all that time spent in the pub, ahhhh!!!
"It's one thing taking an interest in history, but it's quite another to apply principles held in those days to the modern era. Don't you agree? "
Surely the principle of national freedom is constant regardless of the era ?
"No, the only effect of signing the Treaty still felt is Partition but that can be resolved in due course through democracy."
So - 'Yes' , then : that effect ('pain') HAS evolved with us , as I stated .
"Because you learn to find better ways of treating that pain."
Not if you give-up looking for a real cure , as this State has done : the 'establishment' here are content to apply 'sticky-plasters' every so often and then shove the issue to the back of their minds .
"RSF did not condemn the attacks on the marchers who paraded in Dublin in February. Republicanism involves all traditions in Ireland, not just those of the green variety. They are about as Republican as Stalin's USSR was."
RSF are on record for deploring the riots that followed : by the way 'UI' - not one of the loyalist marchers was actually physically attacked - you attempt to insinuate otherwise . Your Stalinist jibe is beneath contempt - I thought , mistakingly , that you might have a better understanding than that .
"There is no contradiction. That is what I explained to you."
You commend those that fought for the Republic and those that borrowed British guns to fight against the Republic . No contradiction ?
"How can we not accept the concession? We are where we are, what the men and women of 1916 fought far can still come about."
Not via Leinster House : what advance on the issue of the jurisdictional claim has been made in the last 84 years ?
"I agree with Observer that all shades should celebrate this together and not look for division."
A 'division' introduced by Westminster and administered by the 'establishment' here .
"I must pop over to 1169 soon, lest I be castigated again for ignoring your blog! "
What a shame you have to be reminded to do so ..... 
"I am one of those who regards 1916 as unfinished business.
I am, however, delighted that so many who do not see it that way are showing an interest in the event.
Raising the issue will, hopefully, generate a debate amongst people who have little, or no, understanding of why we are where we are at the moment.
Surely increased awareness is beneficial to the continuing struggle to achieve the Republic aspired to by the men of 1916."
And hopefully our discussion of the subject will assist to increase that awareness .
"Indeed they do, one man, his dog and a trumpet and then they return to the safety of their barstools."
That 'one man and his dog' organised 31 separate Easter Commemorations in four different countries last year : superman and lassie , perhaps !
"The Republic proclaimed until the same time next year."
RSF do not only proclaim it on the internet , Chris . Or in that bar you speak of so well (and
Sharon
"Surely the principle of national freedom is constant regardless of the era ?"
Those in the North are entitled to regard themselves as part of the Irish nation so in what way are they denied 'national freedom'? The principle of violence is certainly not constant but RSF have difficulty understanding that one, eh?
"No, the only effect of signing the Treaty still felt is Partition but that can be resolved in due course through democracy."
"So - 'Yes' , then : that effect ('pain') HAS evolved with us , as I stated ."
I note you ignored what I stated in order to shift on to a different point.
"Not if you give-up looking for a real cure , as this State has done :"
It hasn't.
"the 'establishment' here are content to apply 'sticky-plasters' every so often and then shove the issue to the back of their minds ."
Hardly. RSF are intent on feeding their supporters useless placebos. How many RSF members abstain from the Dáil? Oh that's right - they can't win any elections to abstain!
"RSF are on record for deploring the riots that followed :"
We're not all as gullible as you seem to think, Sharon.
"by the way 'UI' - not one of the loyalist marchers was actually physically attacked - you attempt to insinuate otherwise ."
Not at all. I merely acknowledge that the violence was an aggresive act against the marchers.
"Your Stalinist jibe is beneath contempt - I thought , mistakingly , that you might have a better understanding than that ."
What, you think I'm being harsh on the Stalinist USSR by comparing it to RSF? Hmm...
"You commend those that fought for the Republic and those that borrowed British guns to fight against the Republic . No contradiction ?"
Hello Mr Straw man!
The difference between yourself and I Sharon is that a republic to me involves government "of the people, by the people, for the people" whereas to you it involves government for those who fit in with the rhetoric and which remains rooted in events from almost a century ago.
Not via Leinster House : what advance on the issue of the jurisdictional claim has been made in the last 84 years ?
I believe if the GFA is properly implemented it can and will lead to a UI. What, specifically, is your own solution Sharon?
Apologises in getting back here : 'skint-kneeism' to blame !
"The Republic proclaimed until the same time next year."
Or , in your case , Chris - until 'closing time' : then , on return from your second home , you can be an internet republican , without mentioning the British presence ie 'have-a-go' at those who oppose the British presence , pointing out to them how they are doing it 'wrong' . Your type are more of a hindrance , Chris , and have been throughout history .
"I remember cleaning up the Republican plot in my local graveyard for Easter, painting flag pole etc and the RSF rep had ducked and dived bewteen headstones in order to lay the wreathe while I was off having a smoke."
What a childish comment . Unbelievable ! Completely ignoring those that put the people in that Plot in the first place . But of course .
"Oh, to be a true Republican like those in RSF."
No , Chris - stay in the pub . The struggle has managed until now without you .
"Imagine all that time spent in the pub, ahhhh!!!"
The pub again . Too much alcohol DOES destroy brain cells , then .
"Those in the North are entitled to regard themselves as part of the Irish nation so in what way are they denied 'national freedom'? The principle of violence is certainly not constant but RSF have difficulty understanding that one, eh? "
"Entitled" to do so under British jurisdiction . You see nothing wrong with that , no ? 'Violence' is not an issue now , nor has it ever been , for Westminster . The violence of the oppressed is different to that of the oppressor , eh?
"No, the only effect of signing the Treaty still felt is Partition but that can be resolved in due course through democracy."
Was that Treaty 'implemented' here in a 'democratic' fashion ?
"Not if you give-up looking for a real cure , as this State has done :"
It hasn't.
Needle in a haystack - 84 years looking (up every tree in North Dublin too , I'll wager!) and still no solution from those in Leinster House . You place your faith in them if you want , 'UI' , but -' fool me once , shame on you : fool me twice , shame on me' .
" Hardly. RSF are intent on feeding their supporters useless placebos. How many RSF members abstain from the Dáil? Oh that's right - they can't win any elections to abstain!"
Those people you are honouring never ran for Office , with the exception of James Connolly (not elected) . You sound remarkably like one of those who emptied the contents of their p**s-pots over the heads of the men and women of 1916 . But never mind : those people 'came round' in the end !
" We're not all as gullible as you seem to think, Sharon. "
Well - not ALL of us !
" Not at all. I merely acknowledge that the violence was an aggresive act against the marchers."
By whom ? RSF ?
" What, you think I'm being harsh on the Stalinist USSR by comparing it to RSF? Hmm..."
No - I think you are being harsh on the level o
" What, you think I'm being harsh on the Stalinist USSR by comparing it to RSF? Hmm..."
No - I think you are being harsh on the level of comment you are sometimes capable of .
"You commend those that fought for the Republic and those that borrowed British guns to fight against the Republic . No contradiction ?"
"Hello Mr Straw man! "
NOW you recognise the contradiction !
"The difference between yourself and I Sharon is that a republic to me involves government "of the people, by the people, for the people" whereas to you it involves government for those who fit in with the rhetoric and which remains rooted in events from almost a century ago."
The people in our six north-eastern counties cannot vote in the same 'governmental' elections as the rest of us : is that what you consider 'government for the people' ? Or is it more like 'government for a section of the people'
" I believe if the GFA is properly implemented it can and will lead to a UI. What, specifically, is your own solution Sharon?"
Not the GFA : that document does not allow for , call or seek a British political and military dis-engagement .
For a start : after a British withdrawal , the unionists should be allowed a proper parliament in Ulster as to do so would hopefully go some way to allay their fears of being 'swamped' in a 'catholic state' .
This issue has gone on for over eight centuries , with two constants throughout : the British military and political presence and opposition to same . I think all of us reading this can agree on that , even if we dis-agree on the 'cure' .
Sharon .
Sharon
"Entitled" to do so under British jurisdiction . You see nothing wrong with that , no ?"
But you talked about 'national freedom'. The jurisdiction of the state can not impact on national freedom. Presumably RSF agrees on that judging by their view of the Republic procaimed in 1916.
"'Violence' is not an issue now , nor has it ever been , for Westminster ."
But we were talking about the party you support. Why is violence important to RSF, Sharon?
"No, the only effect of signing the Treaty still felt is Partition but that can be resolved in due course through democracy."
"Was that Treaty 'implemented' here in a 'democratic' fashion ?"
Um, what? Why did you change the subject? One would be forgiven for thinking you are struggling (no pun intended).
"Needle in a haystack - 84 years looking (up every tree in North Dublin too , I'll wager!) and still no solution from those in Leinster House . You place your faith in them if you want , 'UI' , but -' fool me once , shame on you : fool me twice , shame on me' ."
The government are representatives of the people. That is who I'm placing my faith in.
"Those people you are honouring never ran for Office , with the exception of James Connolly (not elected) ."
LOL. Dear me. Yes Sharon but those people didn't have an Irish parliament that they could get elected to unlike RSF
"You sound remarkably like one of those who emptied the contents of their p**s-pots over the heads of the men and women of 1916 . But never mind : those people 'came round' in the end !"
LOL. Senseless comment. You seem rooted in events that preceded your own birth!
"By whom ? RSF ?"
Analyse the comments from RSF figures prior to the march and draw your own conclusions.
"NOW you recognise the contradiction !"
No, I recognise you once again avoid the issue.
"The people in our six north-eastern counties cannot vote in the same 'governmental' elections as the rest of us : is that what you consider 'government for the people' ?"
The people of Ireland voted that the constitutional future of NI would be decided by those who live there. Your failure to accept this democratic reality is worth noting.
Sharon
Personalising isn't a good thing, Sharon.
When you refer to the struggle managing without people, which struggle are you referring to?
The one that received support from many shades of Republicanism, during the military phase, or the one which naturally followed the ceasefire?
Do you make a distinction?
Would you accept that many courageous Republicans were involved in electoral interventions during the military conflict?
Would you accept that the objective is the prize, not the means?
Do you regard Republicans who risked life and freedom when war was considered the only option and who now engage in political struggle as a viable alternative, as people whom the struggle has managed without?
" But you talked about 'national freedom'. The jurisdiction of the state can not impact on national freedom. Presumably RSF agrees on that judging by their view of the Republic procaimed in 1916. "
This nation consists of 32 counties , not 26 - where did the 1916 Proclamation mention that it was penned in reference to 26 counties only ? In short - "National freedom" must apply to the whole isle , not only part of it .
" But we were talking about the party you support. Why is violence important to RSF, Sharon? "
"Important" ? Violence is not 'important' to RSF , 'UI' : is there a difference between the violence offered by those who would take and the violence offered by those who would defend ? You think not ... ?
"No, the only effect of signing the Treaty still felt is Partition but that can be resolved in due course through democracy."
"Was that Treaty 'implemented' here in a 'democratic' fashion ?"
Um, what? Why did you change the subject? "
"Change the subject" ? Um , was that subject not the Treaty ?
" One would be forgiven for thinking you are struggling (no pun intended). "
One would indeed : and one should be , too , if that was what they were thinking !
" The government are representatives of the people. That is who I'm placing my faith in."
You still have 'faith' in them , after all the corruption ? The hospital trollies . Schools with no roofs . The 'insider' wheeling and dealing ? Jobs for the boys and girls ? And that is without touching on the Six County issue : as I said - 'fool me once .... ' .
"Those people you are honouring never ran for Office , with the exception of James Connolly (not elected) ."
" LOL. Dear me. Yes Sharon but those people didn't have an Irish parliament that they could get elected to unlike RSF"
An 'Irish parliament' ? Or a State one ? Do you not recognise the difference ? LOL !
" LOL. Senseless comment. You seem rooted in events that preceded your own birth! "
Yes . That is why I am running a daily column on our blog on the events of 1916 . Because I am rooted in events which preceded my own birth !
" Analyse the comments from RSF figures prior to the march and draw your own conclusions."
I have done . No comments suggested or called for that parade to be stopped , or to be met with violence . No member of RSF has been charged with taking part in the riot that followed . Draw your own conclusions !
"No, I recognise you once again avoid the issue."
The issue was one of how it is possible to support those that took part in the 1916 Rising AND those that are following in the footsteps of those who , a few years after the Rising , imprisoned and executed the men and women of 1916 ? Contradiction ... ?
" The people of Ireland voted that the constitutional future of NI would be decided by those who live there. Your failure to accept this democratic reality is worth noting."
"The people of Ire
" The people of Ireland voted that the constitutional future of NI would be decided by those who live there. Your failure to accept this democratic reality is worth noting."
"The people of Ireland " voted for that , did they ? Your failure to accept that that actually never happened is worth noting .
Sharon .
" Personalising isn't a good thing, Sharon."
Tell Chris that as well .
" When you refer to the struggle managing without people, which struggle are you referring to? "
When and where did I so refer ?
" The one that received support from many shades of Republicanism, during the military phase, or the one which naturally followed the ceasefire? "
Is it not the same struggle , then , as you see it ?
" Do you make a distinction? "
You apparently do , yet Mr. Adams and Company assure everyone that it is the SAME struggle , do they not ?
" Would you accept that many courageous Republicans were involved in electoral interventions during the military conflict?"
Yes , of course . But not for a seat in Leinster House or Stormont . True or false ?
" Would you accept that the objective is the prize, not the means?"
One is wedded to the other as far as republicans should be concerned . Would you 'cheat' to obtain a 'prize' , Observer ?
" Do you regard Republicans who risked life and freedom when war was considered the only option and who now engage in political struggle as a viable alternative, as people whom the struggle has managed without?"
When they are now so eager to implement British policy on this isle , when once they f
" Do you regard Republicans who risked life and freedom when war was considered the only option and who now engage in political struggle as a viable alternative, as people whom the struggle has managed without?"
When they are now so eager to implement British policy on this isle , when once they fought to remove it , they put themselves outside that struggle .
Sharon .
"This nation consists of 32 counties , not 26 - where did the 1916 Proclamation mention that it was penned in reference to 26 counties only ? In short - "National freedom" must apply to the whole isle , not only part of it ."
You still misunderstand the point - The jurisdiction of the state can not impact on national freedom. You do realise there is a difference between a nation and a state?
"Violence is not 'important' to RSF , 'UI' :"
Course it is. They are inextricably linked to CIRA.
"Change the subject" ? Um , was that subject not the Treaty ?"
The subject was Partition being solved through democracy. You went off on a tangent.
"You still have 'faith' in them , after all the corruption ? The hospital trollies . Schools with no roofs . The 'insider' wheeling and dealing ? Jobs for the boys and girls ? And that is without touching on the Six County issue : as I said - 'fool me once .... ' ."
I don't tar everyone with the same brush unlike others. Do tell us what you think the solution is. Overthrow the establishment?
"An 'Irish parliament' ? Or a State one ? Do you not recognise the difference ? LOL !"
Um, the Irish parliament is the parliament of the state!
"Yes . That is why I am running a daily column on our blog on the events of 1916 . Because I am rooted in events which preceded my own birth !"
You support a party that applies 1916 thinking to the year 2006. I happen to want to celebrate the 90th anniversary of the state with a 1916 theme and yet you think I am the one rooted in 1916? LOL!
"No member of RSF has been charged with taking part in the riot that followed . Draw your own conclusions !"
Yes they can be subtle when they need to be.
"The issue was one of how it is possible to support those that took part in the 1916 Rising AND those that are following in the footsteps of those who , a few years after the Rising , imprisoned and executed the men and women of 1916 ? Contradiction ... ?"
Here you show your simplistic and, dare I say it, uneducated view of history. Fianna Fáil is responsible for the commemorations this year. Fianna Fáil were anti-treaty! There is no contradiction from my end. If you want a contradiction, how about so-called republicans like RSF who remain committed to an armed struggle that involved the murder of those recognised on the Irish tricolour through the colour orange. Republicans indeed! So much for "cherishing all the children of the nation equally"!
"The people of Ireland " voted for that , did they ? Your failure to accept that that actually never happened is worth noting ."
The Good Friday Agreement DID happen Sharon. Perhaps your party was focusing too much on the "dead generations" that it missed this important event of 8 years ago.
'UI' - I hope you do not object to my posting the following : if so , then remove it . I do not think much of the newspaper source (ie 'Daily Ireland') as it has published material in the past which has proved to be false . However , some of your readers may think differently re same .
Daily Ireland
Ahern sidesteps heroes of Easter to praise modern armed forces
10/04/2006
It is important for people to come out onto the streets of Dublin to join in the march celebrating the 90th Anniversary of the 1916 Easter Rising, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern said yesterday.
In a statement sure to anger republicans, Mr Ahern says the event is primarily to honour the Irish Army, and shied away from directly praising the men and women of 1916.
His contention follows the decision by the coalition government to mark the occasion with a military parade.
Mr Ahern said people should commemorate what the Irish Army has done for the country.
There is more to this article (which can be found on line - I have no link to same) but the piece above caught my attention , as Mr. Ahern seems to be 'backtracking' somewhat on his previous statements re this subject .
Thanks ,
Sharon .
Sharon
"When and where did I so refer ?"
Here
"No , Chris - stay in the pub . The struggle has managed until now without you ."
I consider the military phase and post military phase part of the same campaign.
The objective and the means are not linked Sharon.
Would I cheat to obtain a United Ireland? People have killed to obtain it. Of course I would cheat.
What do you think those opposed to Republicanism are doing?
The bringing to bear the might of the British Army and all the ancillary forces (including unionist sectarian death squads) the judiciary, the press, in fact the entire structure of two states, against the Republican Movement should be met by Republicans standing up and taking it on the chin. No chance! I don't want to be part of a glorious failure.
I want a United Ireland and I'll do whatever it takes to bring it about.
It's about the objective, not the journey.
People have sacrificed too much to allow this to slip from our grasp.
I agree with you, no-one should personalise on these sites.
I have no idea what you have sacrificed to bring you to this point and I won't insult you by asking.
I merely reflect my own views and that of others, many of whom have served very lengthy periods of their lives in prison and some of whom carry lifelong injuries.
They still think they are part of the struggle for a UI. They will be disappointed to hear that they are not.
Hopefully others will have a more successful strategy to hand.
I wonder what it might be.
"No , Chris - stay in the pub . The struggle has managed until now without you ."
And what did I say that in reply to ? Or did I just say the above 'out of the blue' , as you appear to want to insinuate ? Why have you still failed to 'pull-up' anyone else , by name , in relation to 'personalising' their comments re republicanism and alcohol ?
"I consider the military phase and post military phase part of the same campaign.
The objective and the means are not linked Sharon."
They have to be linked if any proper consistency is to be maintained : if not , that particular organisation runs the risk of ending up like Fianna Fail !
"Would I cheat to obtain a United Ireland? People have killed to obtain it. Of course I would cheat."
You would cheat to obtain your goal ? Dismiss a principle as a 'tactic' ? Accept a so-called 'compromise' and 'dress' same up as a 'stepping-stone' , a 'half-way' house ? Plead with Westminster to (re)establish a Six County 'parliament' whilst at the same time declaring that your objective is the removal of the British writ ? I have more respect for myself than to do so .
" What do you think those opposed to Republicanism are doing?
The bringing to bear the might of the British Army and all the ancillary forces (including unionist sectarian death squads) the judiciary, the press, in fact the entire structure of two states, against the Republican Movement should be met by Republicans standing up and taking it on the chin. No chance! I don't want to be part of a glorious failure."
Is'nt that what some anti-republicans still describe the 1916 Rising as - a 'glorious failure' ? Has'nt republicanism ALWAYS had those forces waged against them ? Do you now think that the 'prize' is only worth it if it can be obtained 'trouble-free' ? "
" I want a United Ireland and I'll do whatever it takes to bring it about."
Including violence ? Would you use force to obtain your stated objective even if others constantly told you it was 'outdated' and you yourself felt uncomfortable doing so ?
" People have sacrificed too much to allow this to slip from our grasp."
Agreed . By the way : had the 1981 hunger-strikers 'cheated' ie 'accepted' (with a wink and a nod) the British description of them as "criminals" they would not have died on hunger-strike . Why did'nt they 'cheat' ?
" I agree with you, no-one should personalise on these sites."
Agreed . However , if provoked , I can do so as 'good' as the next poster .
" I have no idea what you have sacrificed to bring you to this point and I won't insult you by asking."
Amongst other things , I have a desire to do what I can in an attempt to ensure that future generations do not have to face the options that a partitioned country 'offers' . I have no hidden agenda and , like others , will not benefit financially from my involvement . Nor do I believe I should .
" I merely reflect my own views a
" I merely reflect my own views and that of others, many of whom have served very lengthy periods of their lives in prison and some of whom carry lifelong injuries."
And I can understand where you are coming from in that regard . But I cannot agree with those who seek to implement British policy on this isle in the name of those who served prison time and/or suffered injuries in this struggle .
" They still think they are part of the struggle for a UI. They will be disappointed to hear that they are not."
The Officials considered themselves part of that struggle . Fianna Fail still consider themselves as such . I would rather they be disappointed than consider that they might be correct !
" Hopefully others will have a more successful strategy to hand.
I wonder what it might be."
I imagine it will start with a British military and political withdrawal , or a declaration of same .
Sharon .
Sharon,
'skint-kneeism' to blame !
Am I missing something??
Hi Julius !
''skint-kneeism' to blame !
Am I missing something?? '
It's way off-topic , but what the hell : I have to get it out of my system !
You missed a domestic catastrophe - one of the kids (a boy , of course...) fell and cut his knee : nothing serious , but to listen to the yelps of 'pain' out of him you would be convinced that he had severed his leg ! He knew I had a doctors appointment arranged for that morning and insisted that , if I truly loved and cared for him , I would bring him along with me . What was supposed to be a simple trip to collect a prescription turned into a four-hour bloody nightmare !
By the time we got home the other kids were coming in from school , which meant that the computer was of-limits to me for about a further two hours . Then 'BeBo' intervened on my computer-time as one of the older children 'needed' to check his site or comment page or whatever they have on that site .
We women are supposed to be the 'weak sex' : Hah ! You men get a headcold and you think you are dying . Try cooking , washing , babysitting and helping with two different homework assignments while suffering from a bad dose of the flu . You wimps !
Rant over .
Sharon .
(Sorry for taking it out on you , JG . Next time - don't ask !)
Observer writes:
All shades of opinion on this island are, in some way, influenced by 1922. The Rising is one event we can agree on.
In doing so, he reveals the obnoxious chauvinist nature of Irish ultra-nationalism.
All shades of opinion on the island do NOT agree on the so-called "Rising". But, for Observer, that doesn't matter. He is content to ignore and dismiss the views of unionists: they don't matter.
" You still misunderstand the point - The jurisdiction of the state can not impact on national freedom. You do realise there is a difference between a nation and a state? "
How can national freedom be obtained when another country claims jurisdiction over part of the national territory ?
" Course it is. They are inextricably linked to CIRA."
And Mr. Blair is inextricably linked to the British Army which , in turn , is linked to loyalist paramilitaries . Which of those 1916 leaders you honour was not linked to a military organisation ?
" The subject was Partition being solved through democracy. You went off on a tangent. "
Was it imposed by democratic means ? Supported by democratic means ? Maintained by democratic means? Why not concentrate your ire in that direction ?
" I don't tar everyone with the same brush unlike others. Do tell us what you think the solution is. Overthrow the establishment?"
Do you favour it that much that you would be upset to see the back of it ?
" Um, the Irish parliament is the parliament of the state! "
Um , the state parliament is the parliament of the state . An Irish parliament should have jurisdiction over Ireland , should it not ?
" You support a party that applies 1916 thinking to the year 2006. I happen to want to celebrate the 90th anniversary of the state with a 1916 theme and yet you think I am the one rooted in 1916? LOL! "
I support a political organisation that recognises a parallel between then (and beyond then) and now . You recognise that connection every 90 years , then attempt to condemn others for recognising it more often . Nothing to 'LOL!' about .
"Yes they can be subtle when they need to be."
If you have proof concerning RSF's 'involvement' in those riots then offer that proof up on your blog . Vague assertions and insinuations are no substitute for proof - back up your earlier statement re this issue , if you can .
" Here you show your simplistic and, dare I say it, uneducated view of history. Fianna Fáil is responsible for the commemorations this year. Fianna Fáil were anti-treaty! There is no contradiction from my end. If you want a contradiction, how about so-called republicans like RSF who remain committed to an armed struggle that involved the murder of those recognised on the Irish tricolour through the colour orange. Republicans indeed! So much for "cherishing all the children of the nation equally"! "
What ? Uneducated ? A few posts ago you stated that 'my master was history' - now I am historically 'uneducated' . Only when it suits you , it seems ! Fianna Fail AND the PD's are resposible for next Sundays mish-mash , 'UI' , not just Fianna Fail . And a proper contradiction is , as I stated , your support for the men and women of 1916 and your equal support for those that fought against them .' LOL!' indeed . Your heart may be in the right place , but your head is , dare I say it - politically 'uneducated' .
" Here you show your simplistic and, dare I say it, uneducated view of history. Fianna Fáil is responsible for the commemorations this year. Fianna Fáil were anti-treaty! There is no contradiction from my end. If you want a contradiction, how about so-called republicans like RSF who remain committed to an armed struggle that involved the murder of those recognised on the Irish tricolour through the colour orange. Republicans indeed! So much for "cherishing all the children of the nation equally"! "
What ? Uneducated ? A few posts ago you stated that 'my master was history' - now I am historically 'uneducated' . Only when it suits you , it seems ! Fianna Fail AND the PD's are resposible for next Sundays mish-mash , 'UI' , not just Fianna Fail . And a proper contradiction is , as I stated , your support for the men and women of 1916 and your equal support for those that fought against them .' LOL!' indeed . Your heart may be in the right place , but your head is , dare I say it - politically 'uneducated' .
" The Good Friday Agreement DID happen Sharon. Perhaps your party was focusing too much on the "dead generations" that it missed this important event of 8 years ago."
Where did I state that it DID'NT happen ? My query is regarding your claim that 'the people of the republic' voted for it ! You obviously realise now that that is not , in fact , the case , and are attempting to 'tangent' away from that specific point . Um , not working !
Sharon .
"How can national freedom be obtained when another country claims jurisdiction over part of the national territory ?"
The British state might control part of the national territory but that doesn't impact on the nation itself which is currently protected by Bunreacht na hEireann.
" Course it is. They are inextricably linked to CIRA."
"And Mr. Blair is inextricably linked to the British Army which , in turn , is linked to loyalist paramilitaries ."
Nice shift of topic. At least you accept that RSF are inextricably linked to a paramilitary organisation.
"Which of those 1916 leaders you honour was not linked to a military organisation ?"
Again you apply the era of 1916 to this day and age. Sad.
"Was it imposed by democratic means ? Supported by democratic means ? Maintained by democratic means? Why not concentrate your ire in that direction ?"
Why do you so often answer a point with a question of your own? Why perpetuate a discussion that you are struggling at? I've noted you do that quite often on other blogs.
"I don't tar everyone with the same brush unlike others. Do tell us what you think the solution is. Overthrow the establishment?"
"Do you favour it that much that you would be upset to see the back of it ?"
This is what I'm talking about. Here is a legitimate question of mine ignored by Sharon who puts across her own question to weasel out of it. She is really struggling!
"Um , the state parliament is the parliament of the state . An Irish parliament should have jurisdiction over Ireland , should it not ?"
Another question in answer to a point! An Irish parliament should make up Irish representatives. The Dáil is thus an Irish parliament!
"I support a political organisation that recognises a parallel between then (and beyond then) and now ."
Explain this "parallel". Has nothing changed in 90 years?
"You recognise that connection every 90 years , then attempt to condemn others for recognising it more often . Nothing to 'LOL!' about ."
Wrong. I condemn those whose whole world is stuck, rooted if you will, in that era.
"What ? Uneducated ? A few posts ago you stated that 'my master was history' - now I am historically 'uneducated' . Only when it suits you , it seems !"
I said your master was history meaning you were enslaved by ghosts of the past.
"Fianna Fail AND the PD's are resposible for next Sundays mish-mash , 'UI' , not just Fianna Fail ."
You will find it was announced at the FF Ard Fheis.
"And a proper contradiction is , as I stated , your support for the men and women of 1916 and your equal support for those that fought against them .' LOL!' indeed ."
LOL at your lies, eh? Where did I show support for those who fought against them? That's a straw man.
"Your heart may be in the right place , but your head is , dare I say it - politically 'uneducated' ."
My head and heart are in the right place I assure you. I
My head and heart are in the right place I assure you. I think you have let your heart rule your head for too long, mate.
"Where did I state that it DID'NT happen ? My query is regarding your claim that 'the people of the republic' voted for it ! You obviously realise now that that is not , in fact , the case , and are attempting to 'tangent' away from that specific point . Um , not working !"
Not at all. If your query was the people of the Republic voting for it then you should check the figures from the time. 1,442,583 (94%) voted Yes. 85,748 (6%) voted No.
Uncomfortable facts, eh?
" The British state might control part of the national territory but that doesn't impact on the nation itself which is currently protected by Bunreacht na hEireann."
So one country can control part of another country without it impacting on the occupied nation itself ? LOL!
" Nice shift of topic. At least you accept that RSF are inextricably linked to a paramilitary organisation."
Same topic - political groupings and armed support . Should I be surprised that you have not , in this thread , raised those links except in relation to Irish groups ?
" Again you apply the era of 1916 to this day and age. Sad. "
Answer - all of the 1916 leaders were linked to an armed wing . There : I have said it for you !
" Why do you so often answer a point with a question of your own? Why perpetuate a discussion that you are struggling at? I've noted you do that quite often on other blogs. "
The question was if , in your opinion , the Treaty was imposed by democratic means ?
" This is what I'm talking about. Here is a legitimate question of mine ignored by Sharon who puts across her own question to weasel out of it. She is really struggling!"
In the same week that you honour the men and women of 1916 you insinuate support for the lineal followers of those that fought against those men and women : then you deny that there is any contradiction in doing so !
" Another question in answer to a point! An Irish parliament should make up Irish representatives. The Dáil is thus an Irish parliament! "
Are all parts of our national territory represented in this 'Dail' you speak of ? If not , why not ?
" Explain this "parallel". Has nothing changed in 90 years?"
In relation to the jurisdictional claim from Westminster - no , unfortunately . No change there - it is still in force .
" Wrong. I condemn those whose whole world is stuck, rooted if you will, in that era."
Not as much 'rooted' in it as willing to push it to the fore more often than others are . Some of us do not require a 90 th Anniversary of a subject before we write about it every day for a week .
" I said your master was history meaning you were enslaved by ghosts of the past."
And what ? It's wrong to learn from those 'ghosts of the past' ?
" You will find it was announced at the FF Ard Fheis."
The question was NOT where it was announced , 'UI' - hard luck with that attempted diversion ! It is ORGANISED by the state administration , is it not ? Fianna Fail AND the PD's , that is .
" LOL at your lies, eh? Where did I show support for those who fought against them? That's a straw man."
Do you deny that there is a lineal linkage between those who have organised this Sunday's events , which you support , and those that borrowed British guns to use against the men and women of 1916 ?
"Your heart may be in the right place , but your head is , dare I say it - politically 'uneducated' ."
" My head and heart are in the rig
" My head and heart are in the right place I assure you. I think you have let your heart rule your head for too long, mate."
Not so : it's just that I have refused to allow either organ accept the political bulls**t that is rampant more so than ever now , due to the state-organised Easter commemoration . You have not been as fortunate .
" Not at all. If your query was the people of the Republic voting for it then you should check the figures from the time. 1,442,583 (94%) voted Yes. 85,748 (6%) voted No."
My query was in relation to your original claim that "the people of the republic" voted for it , and your claim now that "94 per cent voted yes" : how is that possible when , in this state , only 56.3 per cent turned out to vote ? 'Um' your way out of that .
" Uncomfortable facts, eh?"
I find that Irish history is full of 'uncomfortable facts' for those that attempt to deny it .
Sharon .
Sharon
"So one country can control part of another country without it impacting on the occupied nation itself ? LOL!"
LOL indeed. RSF trace their lineage to the establishment of an Irish Republic in 1916 - when the entire island was "occupied". You seem quite confused.
"Nice shift of topic. At least you accept that RSF are inextricably linked to a paramilitary organisation."
"Same topic - political groupings and armed support ."
Sharon, why do you feel it is acceptable for a political party to be linked to an illegal paramilitary organisation?
"Answer - all of the 1916 leaders were linked to an armed wing ."
Yes in 1916! In 1916 a world war was going on!
"In the same week that you honour the men and women of 1916 you insinuate support for the lineal followers of those that fought against those men and women : then you deny that there is any contradiction in doing so !"
Stop ignoring the question - what you think the solution is? Overthrow the establishment? Yes or no?
"Are all parts of our national territory represented in this 'Dail' you speak of ? If not , why not ?"
Why not? Familiar with that Treaty signed in 1921?
"In relation to the jurisdictional claim from Westminster - no , unfortunately . No change there - it is still in force ."
So because the jurisdictional claim from Westminister is still there as in 1916, we should thus apply the methods that were used back in 1916?
"Some of us do not require a 90 th Anniversary of a subject before we write about it every day for a week ."
Indeed! A shame to be so stuck in that period!
" I said your master was history meaning you were enslaved by ghosts of the past."
"And what ? It's wrong to learn from those 'ghosts of the past' ?"
But you haven't learned from them. You want to apply the methods they used in a different era in this era.
"You will find it was announced at the FF Ard Fheis."
"The question was NOT where it was announced , 'UI' - hard luck with that attempted diversion ! It is ORGANISED by the state administration , is it not ? Fianna Fail AND the PD's , that is ."
It's not a diversion at all. The PDs did not come up with this idea, FF did.
"LOL at your lies, eh? Where did I show support for those who fought against them? That's a straw man."
"Do you deny that there is a lineal linkage between those who have organised this Sunday's events , which you support , and those that borrowed British guns to use against the men and women of 1916 ?"
Seeing as the party that is organising these events is derived from anti-treaty roots, quite obviously there is no lineal linkage.
"Not so : it's just that I have refused to allow either organ accept the political bulls**t that is rampant more so than ever now , due to the state-organised Easter commemoration . You have not been as fortunate ."
You presumably pay your taxes to one state, north or south, which you claim t
You presumably pay your taxes to one state, north or south, which you claim to oppose. Thus it would seem your head does accept facts that your heart finds unfortunate.
"Not at all. If your query was the people of the Republic voting for it then you should check the figures from the time. 1,442,583 (94%) voted Yes. 85,748 (6%) voted No."
"My query was in relation to your original claim that "the people of the republic" voted for it , and your claim now that "94 per cent voted yes" : how is that possible when , in this state , only 56.3 per cent turned out to vote ? 'Um' your way out of that ."
My way out of what? My figures were in relation to that 56.3 per cent who turned out to vote! LOL! What is your way out of that?
Sorry for taking it out on you , JG . Next time - don't ask
LOL. No problem Sharon, let it all out!
" LOL indeed. RSF trace their lineage to the establishment of an Irish Republic in 1916 - when the entire island was "occupied". You seem quite confused. "
You are of the opinion , as you stated , that one country can control part of another country without it impacting on the occupied country - and YOU call me 'confused' ! LOL !
"Nice shift of topic. At least you accept that RSF are inextricably linked to a paramilitary organisation."
"Inextricably linked " as in RSF would support a military organisation regardless of what that organisation done ? Where have RSF stated this ?
" Sharon, why do you feel it is acceptable for a political party to be linked to an illegal paramilitary organisation? "
Would it be perhaps because those opposed to that political organisation have supporters that are armed ? For instance - on March 17 last , the RHD (ie UDA) stated its intention "to attack RSF members" .
" Yes in 1916! In 1916 a world war was going on! "
The 1916 leaders were linked to an armed wing which had declared its intention to achieve independence from British rule : that armed wing was not established to fight in a 'world war' , as your post indicates .
" Stop ignoring the question - what you think the solution is? Overthrow the establishment? Yes or no? "
Most definitely YES ! Are you really that big a supporter of this corrupt and gombeen establishment that you object to that ?
" Why not? Familiar with that Treaty signed in 1921?"
" So because the jurisdictional claim from Westminister is still there as in 1916, we should thus apply the methods that were used back in 1916?"
Much the same words were spoken in 1803 in connection with 1798 . And in 1916 in connection with 1803 . How does it feel to be so firmly in the 'nay-sayers' camp ? Tell me - should we specifically EXCLUDE those methods due only to the fact that they are 90 years 'old' ? The British , for instance , used violence then and continue to do so today . 'Old-fashioned' or what !
" Indeed! A shame to be so stuck in that period! "
Or so interested in it ? I mean , of course , compared to those that alight on the subject once a year , referring to it in a couple of posts over a week . Then ignore it until the same time the following year . Opportunists , perhaps ?
" But you haven't learned from them. You want to apply the methods they used in a different era in this era. "
Of course we learn from those 'ghosts of the past' . Especially when the problem being looked at is much the same .
" It's not a diversion at all. The PDs did not come up with this idea, FF did."
It could not have been implemented as a 'government proposal' , which it has been , if the PD's did not back it . That , by the way , is the result of Fianna Fail being part of a coalition administration . Which , incidentally , they are !
" Seeing as the party that is organising these events is derived from anti-treaty roots, quite
" Seeing as the party that is organising these events is derived from anti-treaty roots, quite obviously there is no lineal linkage. "
As stated - it is the state administration that "is organising these events" , not a political party . Unless you are of the opinion that a political party can instruct the state army to turn out , 2,500 strong , to take part in its parade ? Could a "political party" do that ? A state administration could . And has .
" You presumably pay your taxes to one state, north or south, which you claim to oppose. Thus it would seem your head does accept facts that your heart finds unfortunate. "
My taxes are stopped at source . When I have the opportunity , I withhold them : bin tax , for instance . My heart and head are aligned on that one , because it is a tax I can do something about .
" My way out of what? My figures were in relation to that 56.3 per cent who turned out to vote! LOL! What is your way out of that? "
NOT SO ! Your stated figures were in relation to what you referred to as " the people of the republic.... 94 per cent [of whom] voted Yes " . That is what you stated in this thread , 'UI' . It is obvious that you now recognise the folly of doing so , but same had to be pointed out to you . Own up - you put your hand out and got it slapped !
At this point , a reminder of what started this thread may be necessary for some readers : here it is in a nutshell -
"In the same week that you honour the men and women of 1916 you insinuate support for the lineal followers of those that fought against those men and women : then you deny that there is any contradiction in doing so !"
Sharon .
I have gone to great lengths to conduct a reasonable debate with you Sharon but you are simply not interested. I will now go to great lengths to illustrate my point:
Me: "LOL indeed. RSF trace their lineage to the establishment of an Irish Republic in 1916 - when the entire island was "occupied". You seem quite confused. "
Sharon: "You are of the opinion , as you stated , that one country can control part of another country without it impacting on the occupied country - and YOU call me 'confused' ! LOL !"
The shift of topic is noted.
Me:"Nice shift of topic. At least you accept that RSF are inextricably linked to a paramilitary organisation."
Sharon: "Inextricably linked " as in RSF would support a military organisation regardless of what that organisation done ? Where have RSF stated this ?"
The fact that you have gone off on a tangent is noted.
Me: "Sharon, why do you feel it is acceptable for a political party to be linked to an illegal paramilitary organisation?"
Sharon: "Would it be perhaps because those opposed to that political organisation have supporters that are armed ? For instance - on March 17 last , the RHD (ie UDA) stated its intention "to attack RSF members" .
Answering a question with a question. Poor form.
Me: " Yes in 1916! In 1916 a world war was going on! "
Sharon: "The 1916 leaders were linked to an armed wing which had declared its intention to achieve independence from British rule : that armed wing was not established to fight in a 'world war' , as your post indicates ."
Sharon creates this straw man to ignore my point that she applies 1916 thinking to the year 2006.
Me: "Stop ignoring the question - what you think the solution is? Overthrow the establishment? Yes or no? "
Sharon: "Most definitely YES ! Are you really that big a supporter of this corrupt and gombeen establishment that you object to that ?"
Finally an actual answer, although her answer states that she wants to overthrow the state which the Irish people support! Here's some more of her confused thoughts:
Sharon: "Much the same words were spoken in 1803 in connection with 1798 . And in 1916 in connection with 1803 . How does it feel to be so firmly in the 'nay-sayers' camp ? Tell me - should we specifically EXCLUDE those methods due only to the fact that they are 90 years 'old' ? The British , for instance , used violence then and continue to do so today . 'Old-fashioned' or what !
Sharon overlooks the fact that we actually have an Irish state today unlike in those days and that the Irish people are quite satisfied with it!
Sharon: "Or so interested in it ? I mean , of course , compared to those that alight on the subject once a year , referring to it in a couple of posts over a week . Then ignore it unt
Sharon: "Or so interested in it ? I mean , of course , compared to those that alight on the subject once a year , referring to it in a couple of posts over a week . Then ignore it until the same time the following year . Opportunists , perhaps ?
1916 is not the sole property of extreme republicans. Its legacy can be felt throughout Ireland.
Me: "But you haven't learned from them(Easter rebels). You want to apply the methods they used in a different era in this era. "
Sharon: "Of course we learn from those 'ghosts of the past' . Especially when the problem being looked at is much the same ."
The fact that you think there are problems today 'much the same' as with 1916 shows you have not learned anything.
Me: " It's not a diversion at all. The PDs did not come up with this idea, FF did."
Sharon: "It could not have been implemented as a 'government proposal' , which it has been , if the PD's did not back it . That , by the way , is the result of Fianna Fail being part of a coalition administration . Which , incidentally , they are !"
You are still confused. Fianna Fáil announced it at their Ard Fheis knowing it would be a popular gesture. There is no way the PDs could have realistically said no to it. FF came up with the idea as a way to counter the threat of Sinn Fein.
Me: "Seeing as the party that is organising these events is derived from anti-treaty roots, quite obviously there is no lineal linkage."
Sharon: "As stated - it is the state administration that "is organising these events" , not a political party . Unless you are of the opinion that a political party can instruct the state army to turn out , 2,500 strong , to take part in its parade ? Could a "political party" do that ? A state administration could . And has ."
This is another diversionary tactic. The state administration is made up of Fianna Fáil and the PDs, the former being the party who decided to come up with a 90th anniversary celebration. Sharon seems to have accepted that there is no "lineal linkage" between FF and the Provisional govt of the Free State - a laughable claim.
Me: "You presumably pay your taxes to one state, north or south, which you claim to oppose. Thus it would seem your head does accept facts that your heart finds unfortunate."
Sharon: "My taxes are stopped at source . When I have the opportunity , I withhold them : bin tax , for instance . My heart and head are aligned on that one , because it is a tax I can do something about ."
Sharon still pays taxes though otherwise she would be in jail so my point still stands. Here's the best part:
Me: "My way out of what? My figures were in relation to that 56.3 per cent who turned out to vote! LOL! What is your way out of that? "
Sharon: "NOT SO ! Your stated figures were in relation to
"NOT SO ! Your stated figures were in relation to what you referred to as " the people of the republic.... 94 per cent [of whom] voted Yes " . That is what you stated in this thread , 'UI' . It is obvious that you now recognise the folly of doing so , but same had to be pointed out to you . Own up - you put your hand out and got it slapped !
I. will. say. this. very. slowly. OK? I stated that the people of the Republic voted yes to the GFA - which is fact. I then stated that 94% of the people voted yes - which is fact. You have tried to avoid the issue by insinuating that my figures left out those who did not vote - but it is irrelevant who did not vote! We can only judge on voter turnout!
Sharon: "At this point , a reminder of what started this thread may be necessary for some readers : here it is in a nutshell -
"In the same week that you honour the men and women of 1916 you insinuate support for the lineal followers of those that fought against those men and women : then you deny that there is any contradiction in doing so !"
And again I would remind readers that this is a straw man since nowhere did I state that I support those who fought against those men. Which she acknowledges above by saying that I "insinuate support" - LOL! Try dealing in what I actually say instead of inventing things to attack me over.
I think the above information highlights very well the silly mindset of an RSF supporter. While I would take issue with SF supporters over some matters, at least they don't live in a fantasy land. I'm sure readers will understand now why I will not waste any more of my time debating with someone who has no interest in a real debate. You are of course entitled to respond though yourself Sharon.
All the best and I hope you enjoy Sunday.
I stated : "You are of the opinion , as you stated , that one country can control part of another country without it impacting on the occupied country - and YOU call me 'confused' ! LOL !"
You replied : "The shift of topic is noted."
I think it is your opinion that has shifted , 'UI' , but you apparently see it as a sign of weakness to admit as much . Lucky for you I can read between the lines !
Me:"Nice shift of topic. At least you accept that RSF are inextricably linked to a paramilitary organisation."
I stated : "Inextricably linked " as in RSF would support a military organisation regardless of what that organisation done ? Where have RSF stated this ?"
You replied : " The fact that you have gone off on a tangent is noted. "
As , indeed , is your 'answer' !
I asked : "Would it be perhaps because those opposed to that political organisation have supporters that are armed ? For instance - on March 17 last , the RHD (ie UDA) stated its intention "to attack RSF members" .
You replied : "Answering a question with a question. Poor form. "
Again - as is your 'answer' .
I stated : "The 1916 leaders were linked to an armed wing which had declared its intention to achieve independence from British rule : that armed wing was not established to fight in a 'world war' , as your post indicates ."
You replied : "Sharon creates this straw man to ignore my point that she applies 1916 thinking to the year 2006."
Were the IRB , Citizens Army etc prepared to take part in the 'world war' , then ?
I stated : "Most definitely YES ! Are you really that big a supporter of this corrupt and gombeen establishment that you object to that ?"
You replied : "Finally an actual answer, although her answer states that she wants to overthrow the state which the Irish people support! Here's some more of her confused thoughts:"
Yes . That could never have happened in 1916 . As we know .
I stated : "Much the same words were spoken in 1803 in connection with 1798 . And in 1916 in connection with 1803 . How does it feel to be so firmly in the 'nay-sayers' camp ? Tell me - should we specifically EXCLUDE those methods due only to the fact that they are 90 years 'old' ? The British , for instance , used violence then and continue to do so today . 'Old-fashioned' or what ! "
You replied : "Sharon overlooks the fact that we actually have an Irish state today unlike in those days and that the Irish people are quite satisfied with it! "
22 per cent in a recent poll agreed that the first priority of politicians in this state should be to deliver a united Ireland : another 55 per cent stated that they would like to see a united Ireland (SBP/Red C , April 2) . Damn dissenters ! And in most of my replies I made a point of referring to this State - how is that "overlooking the fact " that it exists ?
I wrote : "Or so interested in it ? I mean , of course , compared to those that a
I wrote : "Or so interested in it ? I mean , of course , compared to those that alight on the subject once a year , referring to it in a couple of posts over a week . Then ignore it until the same time the following year . Opportunists , perhaps ? "
You replied : " 1916 is not the sole property of extreme republicans. Its legacy can be felt throughout Ireland."
1916 is not the property of any particular group . Therefore you should feel free to discuss it more often !
I stated : "Of course we learn from those 'ghosts of the past' . Especially when the problem being looked at is much the same ."
You replied : "The fact that you think there are problems today 'much the same' as with 1916 shows you have not learned anything."
British military and political presence ? Jurisdictional claim from Westminster ? Were those afflictions with us in 1916 or not ?
I stated : "It could not have been implemented as a 'government proposal' , which it has been , if the PD's did not back it . That , by the way , is the result of Fianna Fail being part of a coalition administration . Which , incidentally , they are !"
You replied : " You are still confused. Fianna Fáil announced it at their Ard Fheis knowing it would be a popular gesture. There is no way the PDs could have realistically said no to it. FF came up with the idea as a way to counter the threat of Sinn Fein. "
State organised ? Or do you still maintain that one political party can order the state army to join in its parade ?
Me: "Seeing as the party that is organising these events is derived from anti-treaty roots, quite obviously there is no lineal linkage."
I wrote : "As stated - it is the state administration that "is organising these events" , not a political party . Unless you are of the opinion that a political party can instruct the state army to turn out , 2,500 strong , to take part in its parade ? Could a "political party" do that ? A state administration could . And has ."
You replied : " This is another diversionary tactic. The state administration is made up of Fianna Fáil and the PDs, the former being the party who decided to come up with a 90th anniversary celebration. Sharon seems to have accepted that there is no "lineal linkage" between FF and the Provisional govt of the Free State - a laughable claim."
From reading between the lines I recognise your belated acceptance that my position re 'Fianna Fail organised/state organised' is correct . What a struggle to get that out of you !
I wrote : "My taxes are stopped at source . When I have the opportunity , I withhold them : bin tax , for instance . My heart and head are aligned on that one , because it is a tax I can do something about ."
You replied : "Sharon still pays taxes though otherwise she would be in jail so my point still stands. "
The taxes I pay are stopped at source , not voluntarily 'handed over' by me , as you imply . As stated - when
The taxes I pay are stopped at source , not voluntarily 'handed over' by me , as you imply . As stated - when I can do something about it (ie bin tax) , I do . Your attempt to paint a picture of me standing outside Leinster House with a bag of tax-money is childish .
I stated : "NOT SO ! Your stated figures were in relation to what you referred to as " the people of the republic.... 94 per cent [of whom] voted Yes " . That is what you stated in this thread , 'UI' . It is obvious that you now recognise the folly of doing so , but same had to be pointed out to you . Own up - you put your hand out and got it slapped ! "
You replied : " I. will. say. this. very. slowly. OK? I stated that the people of the Republic voted yes to the GFA - which is fact. I then stated that 94% of the people voted yes - which is fact. You have tried to avoid the issue by insinuating that my figures left out those who did not vote - but it is irrelevant who did not vote! We can only judge on voter turnout! "
You have done it again ! "...94 per cent ...(of) the people of the republic voted yes to the GFA ." ! From a turn-out of 56.3 per cent .... ? You obviously failed to pay your taxes on those maths books !
Sharon: "At this point , a reminder of what started this thread may be necessary for some readers : here it is in a nutshell -
"In the same week that you honour the men and women of 1916 you insinuate support for the lineal followers of those that fought against those men and women : then you deny that there is any contradiction in doing so !"
You wrote : "And again I would remind readers that this is a straw man since nowhere did I state that I support those who fought against those men. Which she acknowledges above by saying that I "insinuate support" - LOL! Try dealing in what I actually say instead of inventing things to attack me over.
I think the above information highlights very well the silly mindset of an RSF supporter. While I would take issue with SF supporters over some matters, at least they don't live in a fantasy land. I'm sure readers will understand now why I will not waste any more of my time debating with someone who has no interest in a real debate. You are of course entitled to respond though yourself Sharon. "
Thank you for the opportunity . The "fantasy land" I live in has the footprints of many who have been dismissed as having 'silly mindsets' : I am well used to such words of derision by now and am no longer surprised or startled by them . However - you know my position and I know yours , and we have , once again , both had that knowledge confirmed . As Oscar Wilde put it - " Learned conversation is either the affectation of the ignorant or the profession of the mentally unemployed " : as you would place me in one of those brackets , so I would place you in the other !
I wish I could say it was nice conversing with you () - will check back here next Easter ....
Finally (?) - You
Finally (?) - You wrote : " All the best and I hope you enjoy Sunday."
No . But I am looking forward to Monday !
Sharon .
Sorry to interupt this extremely lenthy and laborious argument.
Sharon,
1. Are RSF having their own celebration on Monday?
2. There was a woman who I think was from RSF on Questions and Answers on Monday - was that you?
Hi Julius !
'Sorry for taking it out on you , JG . Next time - don't ask
LOL. No problem Sharon, let it all out! '
I am over it for now , JG .
I am not usually on a short enough fuse to warrant my posting about my troubles here : we all have our issues but (usually!) manage to refrain from 'talking' about them whilst in the middle of a discussion on a different topic . I hope not to do it again !
Sharon .
Hi (again!) Julius !
'Sorry to interupt this extremely lenthy and laborious argument.'
Actually , 'UI' gave up (and in!) ages ago !
'Sharon,
1. Are RSF having their own celebration on Monday? '
Yes , JG - we are assembling at the Garden of Remembrance at 2PM on Easter Monday and will then parade to the GPO . That information is on our blog ....oh that's right : you don't visit anymore ....
'2. There was a woman who I think was from RSF on Questions and Answers on Monday - was that you? '
Not me , JG . I find that that programme (indeed , like 'UI') leaves me with more questions than answers !
Sharon .
(PS - do drop by , won't you .. !)
"Actually , 'UI' gave up (and in!) ages ago !"
Now now Sharon the only thing I gave up on was my belief that you actually have something worthwhile to contribute.
As for me giving in, RSF need only look at the Ireland around them to see that they aren't very good at getting others to give in.
Still, enjoy Sunday (and Monday!).
Yeah there was a girl in the audience that was singing a very similar song to yourself so I thought it might have been you!
do drop by , won't you ..
Of course!
Hi, Sharon
Apologies, I have been away from a computer for a few days.
Just a couple of points, rather than go through your piece in detail (life is too short).
Irish people wasted centuries taking on the Brits on their terms. They got the shit kicked out of them.
Admirable, but nul point.
The IRA decided to cheat, in the Tan War, by not wearing uniforms, sneaking up on the Brits, mining roads, etc. Not cricket, but bloody effective.
In our recent conflict, the IRA again forced the Brits to the negotiating table. Cheated again. Didn't let the Brits beat them.
Part of that strategy was to prove that they (Republicans) were worth the support (and consequent suffering) of the nationalist people.
resistance to the criminalisation policy was part of that.
Cheating doesn't mean lying down, as I suspect you know. It means playing by your own rules, not the enemy's.
You said,
"But I cannot agree with those who seek to implement British policy on this isle in the name of those who served prison time and/or suffered injuries in this struggle ."
They are the people who suffered, served time and sustained injury.
Adherence to a tactic under the guise of principle, or (ludicrously)
in the interests of consistency, at risk of losing the struggle is immoral and unworthy of thosr who have given their lives.
Consistency equals predictability equals defeat.
This struggle is too important to risk on the altar of stupidity.
I remember the Sticks. I imagine all Republicans thought about analogies when the political phase began. There are none. The Sticks were never in a position to bring about reunification. The Republican Movement is.
You asked if I would be prepared to use violence to achieve my stated objective. Deary me, Sharon, such language. Armed struggle is an integral part of the revolutionary arsenal, when appropriate.
Not as a first, or only resort.
When appropriate. When there is no alternative.
Incidentally, have you asked the Brits to leave?
What did they say?
If, as I suspect, they said no, what are you going to do now?
" Now now Sharon the only thing I gave up on was my belief that you actually have something worthwhile to contribute."
And , apparently , your belief that Mr. Ahern has anything 'worthwhile to contribute' to the 1916 Rising (if your post today is a yardstick) . What a pity he and his have to p**s on you so many times before you cop-on . Still - no doubt you will soon forget and then revert to praising him and his for their splendid job in 'running the country' !
" As for me giving in, RSF need only look at the Ireland around them to see that they aren't very good at getting others to give in."
That worries me , coming as it does from the multi-cheeked 'UI' , an apparent expert on 'giving in' . And as long as the jurisdictional claim from Westminster remains in place , I cannot see republicans 'giving in' , no matter how much you wish we would .
" Still, enjoy Sunday (and Monday!)."
Sunday's commemoration will be a hypocritical political travesty , but Monday's commemoration will rescue the situation somewhat .
" Yeah there was a girl in the audience that was singing a very similar song to yourself so I thought it might have been you!
do drop by , won't you ..
Of course! "
" Of course" ? Simply not good enough - please sign the 'Guestbook' as 'proof of purchase' !
" Hi, Sharon
Apologies, I have been away from a computer for a few days.
Just a couple of points, rather than go through your piece in detail (life is too short)."
Hi Observer ! A couple of answers/comments on your points :
" Irish people wasted centuries taking on the Brits on their terms."
"Wasted" ? Nothing at all was achieved then ?
" They got the shit kicked out of them."
And kicked it sufficiently out of the enemy to obtain what has been obtained .
"Admirable, but nul point."
Wait until 'end of game' before you award points , Observer .
"The IRA decided to cheat, in the Tan War, by not wearing uniforms, sneaking up on the Brits, mining roads, etc. Not cricket, but bloody effective."
Ah right ! An "effective....waste....." of time , then !
"In our recent conflict, the IRA again forced the Brits to the negotiating table. Cheated again. Didn't let the Brits beat them."
The PIRA beat theselves at the behest of their political advisers . They should now disband and concentrate their individual efforts on vodka delivery trucks .
"Part of that strategy was to prove that they (Republicans) were worth the support (and consequent suffering) of the nationalist people.
resistance to the criminalisation policy was part of that.
Cheating doesn't mean lying down, as I suspect you know. It means playing by your own rules, not the enemy's."
So why did'nt any of the 22 Irish hunger-strikers "cheat" ? You know - 'wink and nod' , 'play be their own rules' etc ?
I stated : "But I cannot agree with those who seek to implement British policy on this isle in the name o
I stated : "But I cannot agree with those who seek to implement British policy on this isle in the name of those who served prison time and/or suffered injuries in this struggle ."
You replied : "They are the people who suffered, served time and sustained injury."
Did they do so for a seat in Leinster House and/or Stormont ? Do you consider that a 'victory' ?
"Adherence to a tactic under the guise of principle, or (ludicrously)
in the interests of consistency, at risk of losing the struggle is immoral and unworthy of thosr who have given their lives."
Are all those who refuse (and have refused) to 'cheat' therefore "immoral and unworthy" , Observer ?
"Consistency equals predictability equals defeat."
Like the British , you mean ? Consistent action undertaken by them in every country in their 'empire' . And it did lead to their 'defeat' , which is not yet complete .
" This struggle is too important to risk on the altar of stupidity."
"Stupidity" is doing what others before you done , after having witnessed said 'solution' fail ie to enter constitutional politics (with no 'Plan B' ) to become the new 'rebel pets' of those who oppose your political position . Actually , 'stupidity' is putting it mildly !
" I remember the Sticks. I imagine all Republicans thought about analogies when the political phase began. There are none. The Sticks were never in a position to bring about reunification. The Republican Movement is."
Yes , but Adams and Co. are not : they have become the new De Rossa's , morally and financially comfortable within the system they once opposed . PSF have been 'house-trained' .
" You asked if I would be prepared to use violence to achieve my stated objective. Deary me, Sharon, such language. Armed struggle is an integral part of the revolutionary arsenal, when appropriate.
Not as a first, or only resort.
When appropriate. When there is no alternative. "
Agreed - we are not , as a rule, a 'bloodthirsty' or imperialist people . We do not 'go out' looking for a fight . You and I apparently differ in that I believe having part of your national territory under a foreign jurisdictional claim is still worth fighting against , and do not agree that we should confine ourselves to how we carry-on that fight by taking 'advice' from that foreign power and from those who support that foreign power .
" Incidentally, have you asked the Brits to leave?"
Yes . Repeatedly .
"What did they say?"
As they said before - that they will never leave . Much the same as they said regarding their other colonies .
" If, as I suspect, they said no, what are you going to do now? "
Keep on asking and insisting . But we definitely won't join them in their 'half-way' house .
Sharon .
From 'Balrog' -
'Republicans' of all shades Cokes, Irpsies and Stickies all lay claim to the mantle of 1916 and 1981, such is the enormity of the gallantry of these freedom fighters.In light of this I appeal to all republicans to attend their local commemorations, and least of all not to forget to wear an Easter Lilly, the single symbol of the undying precept of Irish Republicanism. Honour Ireland's Dead Wear an Easter Lilly!!! '
Well said , Chris .
Will they go for a drink afterwards , do you think ?
Sharon .
Hi, Sharon
"Keep on asking and insisting . But we definitely won't join them in their 'half-way' house ."
They must be shaking in their boots.
You keep asking.
Republicans (or whatever you and Bertie and McDowell call us these days) will keep focused on achieving a United Ireland and fighting whichever way appears most effective at a given time.
Sharon
"What a pity he and his have to p**s on you so many times before you cop-on . Still - no doubt you will soon forget and then revert to praising him and his for their splendid job in 'running the country' !"
Sharon, do you work on a farm or something because you're an expert at building straw men. When have I praised Ahern on how he has run the country? I have been calling on a change of government!
"As for me giving in, RSF need only look at the Ireland around them to see that they aren't very good at getting others to give in."
"That worries me , coming as it does from the multi-cheeked 'UI' , an apparent expert on 'giving in' . And as long as the jurisdictional claim from Westminster remains in place , I cannot see republicans 'giving in' , no matter how much you wish we would"
You pay your taxes to the establishment you claim to oppose so much. Yeah you don't give in. LOL. The Irish people have given their thoughts on your party. No TDs whatsoever. That's about right.
I hope you have a good time at Monday's commemoration though with the other seven people there.
Hi Observer !
" They must be shaking in their boots."
As opposed to having their boots licked , you mean?
" Republicans (or whatever you and Bertie and McDowell call us these days) will keep focused on achieving a United Ireland and fighting whichever way appears most effective at a given time."
By implementing British policy in the Six Counties ? By assisting to administer that part of our country for a foreign power ? They must indeed be 'shaking in their boots' !
Incidentally : no comment on my question regarding the 22 hunger-strikers and 'cheating' ?
Hi 'UI' !
" Sharon, do you work on a farm or something because you're an expert at building straw men. When have I praised Ahern on how he has run the country? I have been calling on a change of government! "
You have praised him for holding this Sundays event , have you not ? And why settle for 'a change of government' ONLY ? Has that not proved in the past to make no difference (especially regarding the Six County issue) ? It is the system itself that is corrupt , not only those that 'run' that system .
(And I could ask you re 'farm work' , too : no shortage of bulls**t !)
" You pay your taxes to the establishment you claim to oppose so much. Yeah you don't give in. LOL. The Irish people have given their thoughts on your party. No TDs whatsoever. That's about right."
For the third (fourth?) time - those of my taxes that are not stopped at source I can , and do , do something about in not paying them voluntarily . Re your 'elected representatives' jibe - as previously stated : how many of those that took part in , for instance , the 1916 Rising , were 'elected representatives' ? Where was their 'democratic mandate' ?
" I hope you have a good time at Monday's commemoration though with the other seven people there."
'Seven' as in only seven people signed the 1916 Proclamation , you mean : yes , they were obviously a small , unrepresented 'band of fanatics' !
By the way - last year , RSF held 31 separate Easter Commemorations in 4 different countries on the same weekend . Not bad for an organisation which can only muster 'seven people' . LOL !
Sharon .
Hi Sharon!
"You have praised him for holding this Sundays event , have you not ?"
Indeed, but you said I praised him for running the country.
"And why settle for 'a change of government' ONLY ?"
Because I'm a democrat.
"Has that not proved in the past to make no difference (especially regarding the Six County issue) ? It is the system itself that is corrupt , not only those that 'run' that system ."
The system is not corrupt.
"(And I could ask you re 'farm work' , too : no shortage of bulls**t !)"
Don't be so hard on yourself.
"For the third (fourth?) time - those of my taxes that are not stopped at source I can , and do , do something about in not paying them voluntarily ."
If you didn't pay your taxes you'd be in jail and they don't have net access there as far as I know.
"Re your 'elected representatives' jibe - as previously stated : how many of those that took part in , for instance , the 1916 Rising , were 'elected representatives' ? Where was their 'democratic mandate' ?"
As previously pointed out to you, they had not got an Irish state that they could elected to. RSF have, but no one likes their policies and their paramilitary links.
"'Seven' as in only seven people signed the 1916 Proclamation , you mean : yes , they were obviously a small , unrepresented 'band of fanatics' !"
Eh? You'll find those who took part in the Rising will probably outweigh those who turn up at RSF's event. LOL.
"By the way - last year , RSF held 31 separate Easter Commemorations in 4 different countries on the same weekend . Not bad for an organisation which can only muster 'seven people' . LOL !"
Indeed, too bad most people don't give a damn about them.
Hi 'UI' !
" Indeed, but you said I praised him for running the country."
But you seem to be of the opinion that Mr. Ahern is holding the event on Sunday on behalf of the country , no ?
" Because I'm a democrat."
So those seeking to change this whole rotten system of 'government' are not 'democrats' , then , in your opinion ? Only those seeking to change those in charge of the system can be called 'democrats' ?
" The system is not corrupt."
LOL! There is obviously not enough proof out there to convince you otherwise - you are a firmly ensconced 'company man' , 'UI' , regardless of which outfit runs the 'company' . A 'safe pair of hands' , if you will , a 'yes man' . And a lost cause , I fear .
" Don't be so hard on yourself."
No , actually , it is quite easy to keep you in check . Your comments are so ludicrous ("The system is not corrupt" !) that I need only verbally 'nudge' them to ensure they collapse in on themselves . It passes the time for me between discussion elsewhere !
" If you didn't pay your taxes you'd be in jail and they don't have net access there as far as I know."
Again -most of my taxes are stopped at source , leaving me no choice in the matter . We in this house have been threatened with legal action by SDCC for not paying the bin tax - we replied , threatening legal action ourselves against them for demanding payment for a 'service' we do not use . That was two years ago and they have not contacted us since . Its called 'standing up for what you believe to be right' , 'UI' . But don't you try it - it is far easier to write a blog about those that do it (ie 1916 , for instance) than to actually do it yourself .
" As previously pointed out to you, they had not got an Irish state that they could elected to. RSF have, but no one likes their policies and their paramilitary links."
The 1916 leaders had local councils which they DID NOT run for election to - "...Or, in the case of a local council, which does not claim sovereignty, Republicans contest the election and take their seat if elected. Sinn Féin councillors sat on local bodies before 1916. In 1920, with a Republican majority, local councils broke with England and affiliated to the All-Ireland Dáil then functioning....[from http://www.rsf.ie/election.htm] . How little they thought of democracy , yet you admire them for it . Way to go , you rebel !
" Eh? You'll find those who took part in the Rising will probably outweigh those who turn up at RSF's event. LOL."
In my previous post I commented on the 31 RSF Easter Commemorations last year : to even organise that many functions would require more than 'seven people' ! By the way : why do you not organise an Easter Commemoration yourself , instead of relying on the State (or others) to do it for you ? You know , 'put your money where your mouth is'-sort of thing ? Purchase a laptop computer and you could even blog about the no
" Eh? You'll find those who took part in the Rising will probably outweigh those who turn up at RSF's event. LOL."
In my previous post I commented on the 31 RSF Easter Commemorations last year : to even organise that many functions would require more than 'seven people' ! By the way : why do you not organise an Easter Commemoration yourself , instead of relying on the State (or others) to do it for you ? You know , 'put your money where your mouth is'-sort of thing ? Purchase a laptop computer and you could even blog about the non-event as you stand there . Alone . LOL!
" Indeed, too bad most people don't give a damn about them. "
Some people in each of those four countries obviously gave enough of "a damn about it" to organise/attend those Commemorations . They , at least , are not only 'keyboard republicans' .
Sharon .
Sharon
"But you seem to be..."
Stop building straw men.
"So those seeking to change this whole rotten system of 'government' are not 'democrats' , then , in your opinion ?"
Those seeking to overthrow a system that the Irish people are happy with are not democrats, no.
"LOL! There is obviously not enough proof out there to convince you otherwise - you are a firmly ensconced 'company man' , 'UI' , regardless of which outfit runs the 'company' . A 'safe pair of hands' , if you will , a 'yes man' . And a lost cause , I fear ."
Being called a lost cause by a RSF supporter is like being told I have a big bum by Jennifer Lopez. In other words, no big deal. If you have proof, show it and let the people decide.
"No , actually , it is quite easy to keep you in check . Your comments are so ludicrous ("The system is not corrupt" !) that I need only verbally 'nudge' them to ensure they collapse in on themselves . It passes the time for me between discussion elsewhere !"
Sure Sharon. Whatever you say.
"Again -most of my taxes are stopped at source , leaving me no choice in the matter ."
That's what you tell yourself, yes!
"The 1916 leaders had local councils which they DID NOT run for election to - "...Or, in the case of a local council, which does not claim sovereignty, Republicans contest the election and take their seat if elected. Sinn Féin councillors sat on local bodies before 1916. In 1920, with a Republican majority, local councils broke with England and affiliated to the All-Ireland Dáil then functioning....[from http://www.rsf.ie/election.htm] . How little they thought of democracy , yet you admire them for it . Way to go , you rebel !"
Leaving aside your personal jibe, the fact remains that there was no independent Irish state at the time of the 1916 rebels yet there is today - it's the one you pay your taxes to.
"By the way : why do you not organise an Easter Commemoration yourself , instead of relying on the State (or others) to do it for you ? You know , 'put your money where your mouth is'-sort of thing ?"
But my taxes go towards the state, silly. (As do yours)
"Purchase a laptop computer and you could even blog about the non-event as you stand there . Alone . LOL!"
So says the RSF supporter. LOL!
"Some people in each of those four countries obviously gave enough of "a damn about it" to organise/attend those Commemorations . They , at least , are not only 'keyboard republicans'"
Countries? What countries? LOL!
Sharon, I think you're an inspiration to Irish republicanism. Some fought for Ireland, some died for Ireland, but Sharon you refuse to pay your bin taxes!
You go girl!
" The system is not corrupt."
Do you not read your own 'Links' column , 'UI' ?
http://www.publicinquiry.eu/183/
Sharon .
Sharon,
I don't blame the system for that. I think the actual corrupt Ministers should take responsibility.
I don't believe on letting them off lightly by blaming the system!
Hi Sharon
"And kicked it sufficiently out of the enemy to obtain what has been obtained ."
What was obtained in 1798, 1803 or 1865?
"Are all those who refuse (and have refused) to 'cheat' therefore "immoral and unworthy" , Observer ?"
In the current circumstances, anyone who wishes to jeopardise the greatest opportunity we have had to end partition because of a lack of consistency is, in my opinion, immoral and unworthy.
Citing rhetoric without a clear understanding of where it leads you, without a plan, other than apparently, pleading with the Brits to leave is a betrayal of the Irish Nation and in particular those who have died in this struggle.
Your silly point about cheating implies that every Volunteer who recognised a court was wrong to do so.
Is that your view?
If we had been consistent, 1916 would have been fought with pikes.
SF would not have stood in the election of 1918. British lackeys.eh?
Your point about the Hunger Strikers is puerile. It is also in incredibly poor taste.
I know some who were on the Hunger Strike and the previous one. Not read about it, or know someone who was on it, actually were on hunger strike.
They don't agree with your views.
Hunger Strike was a correct tactic at that time.
Some of the prisoners did cheat a little later, remember? They dressed as screws and Brits, took over a block and escaped.
Strategy - achieve a United Ireland.
Tactic - as appropriate at any given time as long as it furthers the Strategy.
Hi 'UI' !
" Stop building straw men."
From replies from you on this thread - "....most people......will probably.....That's about right.....94% of the people voted yes ....." 'Straw' is right !
"Those seeking to overthrow a system that the Irish people are happy with are not democrats, no. "
What a good 'pet rebel' you are , 'UI' ! So people are "are happy" with this Fianna Fail/Progressive Democrat coalition administration , are they ? LOL !
" Being called a lost cause by a RSF supporter is like being told I have a big bum by Jennifer Lopez. In other words, no big deal. If you have proof, show it and let the people decide."
Follow the 'Link' (from your own site , by the way!) which I posted above .[Incidentally - Jennie , for one , HAS a big bum!]
"Sure Sharon. Whatever you say."
No , seriously - she HAS a big bum !
" That's what you tell yourself, yes!"
Said in relation to my taxes being stopped at source : apparently , 'UI' believes PAYE workers can pay their tax whenever they want , if they want. Any jobs going in your place , then ?
"But my taxes go towards the state, silly. (As do yours)"
I suspect you forgo rebates , too . They probably need it more than you do , anyway . They would have at least three homes to 'keep' (Thank You , Mr. Flynn !) .
" So says the RSF supporter. LOL!"
The shame of being 'slagged' by one who supports the SDLP . And Fianna Fail . And [sometimes] Provisional Sinn Fein . That's if there is nothing better on offer , mind . Regardless of which (other) party offers it !
"Countries? What countries? LOL!"
The four countries in which RSF held Easter Commemorations in last year , of course , silly ! (Ireland , Scotland , England and America)
" Sharon, I think you're an inspiration to Irish republicanism. Some fought for Ireland, some died for Ireland, but Sharon you refuse to pay your bin taxes!"
'UI' , you are a true beacon of light to constitutional nationalists everywhere - you 'prove' you can be a 'republican' once a year for a week or so , at Easter time , and design a new blog 'logo' as your contribution to the struggle . A plinth shall be built to you in O' Connell Street , upon which a statue of a figure which faces in all directions at once will be placed : said figure will change colour once a year , due to the mixing of bird droppings and bulls**t . And it will be no more than you deserve !
" You go girl!"
Not half as much as you do , it seems !
Sharon .
Let's wade through the straw here...
"What a good 'pet rebel' you are , 'UI' ! So people are "are happy" with this Fianna Fail/Progressive Democrat coalition administration , are they ? LOL !"
Whoops here's some more straw men!
"Said in relation to my taxes being stopped at source : apparently , 'UI' believes PAYE workers can pay their tax whenever they want , if they want. Any jobs going in your place , then ?"
More straw men eh?
"But my taxes go towards the state, silly. (As do yours)"
"I suspect you forgo rebates , too . They probably need it more than you do , anyway . They would have at least three homes to 'keep' (Thank You , Mr. Flynn !) ."
MORE straw men...
"The shame of being 'slagged' by one who supports the SDLP . And Fianna Fail . And [sometimes] Provisional Sinn Fein . That's if there is nothing better on offer , mind . Regardless of which (other) party offers it !"
How do you know what party I support? MORE straw men!
"The four countries in which RSF held Easter Commemorations in last year , of course , silly ! (Ireland , Scotland , England and America)"
Exactly! Two countries of the UK!
"'UI' , you are a true beacon of light to constitutional nationalists everywhere - you 'prove' you can be a 'republican' once a year for a week or so , at Easter time , and design a new blog 'logo' as your contribution to the struggle . A plinth shall be built to you in O' Connell Street , upon which a statue of a figure which faces in all directions at once will be placed : said figure will change colour once a year , due to the mixing of bird droppings and bulls**t . And it will be no more than you deserve !
Excellent stuff "Sharon"!
Hi 'UI' !
" I don't blame the system for that. I think the actual corrupt Ministers should take responsibility."
They obviously do not agree with you ! I am of the opinion that if you were walking on the footpath and a person on a pushbike collided with you , you would blame the pushbike !
" I don't believe on letting them off lightly by blaming the system!"
They ARE the 'system' , 'UI' - part and parcel .
I stated -"What a good 'pet rebel' you are , 'UI' ! So people are "are happy" with this Fianna Fail/Progressive Democrat coalition administration , are they ? LOL !"
You replied - "Whoops here's some more straw men!"
Leinster House is full of 'straw' people , who depend on the 'UI''s of this State to keep them in the comfort they demand . As I said : you are a 'safe pair of hands' .
I stated - "Said in relation to my taxes being stopped at source : apparently , 'UI' believes PAYE workers can pay their tax whenever they want , if they want. Any jobs going in your place , then ?"
You replied - " More straw men eh?"
Nothing else to offer by way of 'fleshing-out' your political position ?*
I stated - "I suspect you forgo rebates , too . They probably need it more than you do , anyway . They would have at least three homes to 'keep' (Thank You , Mr. Flynn !) ."
You replied - "MORE straw men..."
*... no , apparently not !
I stated -"The shame of being 'slagged' by one who supports the SDLP . And Fianna Fail . And [sometimes] Provisional Sinn Fein . That's if there is nothing better on offer , mind . Regardless of which (other) party offers it !"
You replied - " How do you know what party I support? MORE straw men! "
Simple ! You have voiced support for all the above on your blog .At one time or another . Depending on which way the wind is blowing , of course !
I stated -"The four countries in which RSF held Easter Commemorations in last year , of course , silly ! (Ireland , Scotland , England and America)"
You replied - " Exactly! Two countries of the UK!"
Do you not recognise those four entities as separate countries , then ? What a daft reply from you , 'UI' !
I stated - " 'UI' , you are a true beacon of light to constitutional nationalists everywhere - you 'prove' you can be a 'republican' once a year for a week or so , at Easter time , and design a new blog 'logo' as your contribution to the struggle . A plinth shall be built to you in O' Connell Street , upon which a statue of a figure which faces in all directions at once will be placed : said figure will change colour once a year , due to the mixing of bird droppings and bulls**t . And it will be no more than you deserve ! "
You replied - " Excellent stuff "Sharon"! "
Well , it beats your 'bin-tax republican' jibe !
Hi Observer !
I stated - "And kicked it sufficiently out of the enemy to obtain what has been obtained ."
You replied - " What was obtai
Hi Observer !
I stated - "And kicked it sufficiently out of the enemy to obtain what has been obtained ."
You replied - " What was obtained in 1798, 1803 or 1865?"
A reference point was obtained and established for future generations to refer to . Is'nt that what is happening now re the 1916 Commemorations ?
I stated - "Are all those who refuse (and have refused) to 'cheat' therefore "immoral and unworthy" , Observer ?"
You replied - " In the current circumstances, anyone who wishes to jeopardise the greatest opportunity we have had to end partition because of a lack of consistency is, in my opinion, immoral and unworthy.
Citing rhetoric without a clear understanding of where it leads you, without a plan, other than apparently, pleading with the Brits to leave is a betrayal of the Irish Nation and in particular those who have died in this struggle."
The 'GFA' was not designed to "end partition'' , Observer - rather it is 'conflict management' , not 'conflict resolution' . Those who "died in this struggle" did not do so to enable (former) comrades to administer British rule in the Six Counties .
You asked -" Your silly point about cheating implies that every Volunteer who recognised a court was wrong to do so.
Is that your view?"
Answer me first re the 22 hunger-strikers and 'cheating' , as I am now asking you to , for the third time : should they , in your opinion , have done so [with a wink and a nod , of course] in order to survive their ordeal ?
You wrote - " If we had been consistent, 1916 would have been fought with pikes.
SF would not have stood in the election of 1918. British lackeys.eh?"
Why ? Were the British only using pikes in 1916 ?
Irish 'republicans' pleading with Westminster to "bring back Stormont" ! LOL! "Lackeys" is an insult to 'lackeys' elsewhere .
You wrote - " Your point about the Hunger Strikers is puerile. It is also in incredibly poor taste."
And it also , obviously , put you on the spot ! The "poor taste" part applies to those willing to implement British 'rule' in the Six Counties and who use the hunger-strikers to assist them in achieving that 'goal' . Stomach turning .
You wrote - " I know some who were on the Hunger Strike and the previous one. Not read about it, or know someone who was on it, actually were on hunger strike."
One of my best friends died in 1991 as a result of political hunger-strikes he endured in the 1950's/1960's . A close friend of our family , who lived in Donegal , also died as a result of the injuries he suffered whilst on hunger-strike .
No one I know , or knew , endured a hunger-strike for the re-establishment of Stormont .
You stated - " They don't agree with your views."
Do 'they' believe that assisting to 'manage' an occupied area was worth a hunger-strike ?
You wrote - " Hunger Strike was a correct tactic at that time."
When did I say it was not ?
" Some of the prisoners d
" Some of the prisoners did cheat a little later, remember? They dressed as screws and Brits, took over a block and escaped."
It is the duty of every political prisoner to try and escape , given the opportunity . Our discussion was in regards to the hunger-strikers : should they have 'cheated' (ie 'accepted' criminal designation) in order to escape certain death ?
You wrote - " Strategy - achieve a United Ireland."
By implementing British 'rule' !
You wrote - " Tactic - as appropriate at any given time as long as it furthers the Strategy."
NOT if that 'strategy' is as divorced from republicanism as PSF is . They are constitutional nationalists , Observer - about as 'republican' as are the SDLP or the Stickies !
Sharon .
" The system is not corrupt."
-'UI' , this thread .
" Corrupt politicians are robbing us, plain and simple " -http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/Articles/view.asp?
CategoryID=-1&CategoryName=&ArticleID=100
Before you dismiss the above quote (and article) from David McWilliams , 'UI' , at least re-consider your statement (above , top) .
That there are corrupt politicians in this State is beyond doubt : I take it you would agree with me on that one ?
Those same politicians are inextricably linked to the governing political system in this State .
Therefore .... ?
Sharon .
'Sharon'
"They obviously do not agree with you ! I am of the opinion that if you were walking on the footpath and a person on a pushbike collided with you , you would blame the pushbike !"
That's a non sequitur. You're the one who blames a system rather than the people who abuse that system.
"They ARE the 'system' , 'UI' - part and parcel ."
No, they're people who have abused the system. Not all Irish politicians are bad people.
"You replied - "Whoops here's some more straw men!"
Leinster House is full of 'straw' people , who depend on the 'UI''s of this State to keep them in the comfort they demand . As I said : you are a 'safe pair of hands' ."
This is not only a straw man but an ad hominem attack. Kudos.
"I stated - "Said in relation to my taxes being stopped at source : apparently , 'UI' believes PAYE workers can pay their tax whenever they want , if they want. Any jobs going in your place , then ?"
You replied - " More straw men eh?"
Nothing else to offer by way of 'fleshing-out' your political position ?*"
Why would I comment on things I didn't say? Stop building straw men and be serious.
"You replied - " How do you know what party I support? MORE straw men! "
Simple ! You have voiced support for all the above on your blog .At one time or another . Depending on which way the wind is blowing , of course !"
So what? Again, that's a non sequitur. I could voice support for how Shamrock Rovers performed in a football game but that doesn't mean I support Shamrock Rovers. (And incidentally I don't!)
"Do you not recognise those four entities as separate countries , then ? What a daft reply from you , 'UI' !"
More jibes. Just shows you're struggling (no pun intended).
"That there are corrupt politicians in this State is beyond doubt : I take it you would agree with me on that one ?
Those same politicians are inextricably linked to the governing political system in this State .
Therefore .... ?"
Therefore they have abused the system and ought to be punished for it. The system doesn't make people corrupt though as you insinuate. People should take responsibility for their own actions. Blaming the system (as you do) is a cop-out.
By the way, I don't for a second believe you care about corrupt politicians. Your own party - Republican Sinn Féin - is linked to CIRA who engage in all manner of criminality so I take your moral outrage with a pinch of salt.
No doubt you'll respond with some more straw men...
Sorry about my late reply Sharon, some of us have Republican activities that extend beyond the internet.
Or , in your case , Chris - until 'closing time' : then , on return from your second home , you can be an internet republican , without mentioning the British presence ie 'have-a-go' at those who oppose the British presence , pointing out to them how they are doing it 'wrong' . Your type are more of a hindrance , Chris , and have been throughout history ."
What type am I Sharon?
I always see the Brits as the biggest obstacle because they are.
You seem to be suggesting that I am some kind of Alcoholic who spends all my time in the pub, the truth couldn't be further from your suggestion.
I dislike so-called Republicans who come out once a year and are never heard from again and then have the cheek to ridicule us who are constantly working be it in the community, electorally etc to try and advance the struggle.
Being a Republican Sharon involves more than setting up 31 tiny commerorations a year where three old men turn up and confess themselves loyal sons of Ireland and then spend the rest of the year bitching about how active Republicans have sold out.
What is your proposal on how to get the Brits out?
Your type are so quick to complain but you have no alternative, it is the people who fought the war and who took the war to the Brits who agree with me now about their being another way forward.
You would do well to remember that Sharon when you try and imply that you are somehow "more Republican" than I.
What a childish comment . Unbelievable ! Completely ignoring those that put the people in that Plot in the first place . But of course
Just the truth Sharon, I also don't forget those who put those proud Volunteers there.
I never will!!
I would not however consider myself a proper Republican if I didn't try and carry on their spirit and seek the Unification of our country.
Of course I could be a "hardline" Republican who believes in Ideological purity and sit on my arse all year round and complain but I am not like your typical RSF member.
I believe in actions and not just words!
No , Chris - stay in the pub . The struggle has managed until now without you
Of course it has Sharon, it would survive without me. That is the power of the struggle it doesn't depend on induividuals, any individual!
The pub again . Too much alcohol DOES destroy brain cells , then .
Don't worry Sharon I have plenty left
Some people don't seem to have any to begin with.
Hi 'UI' !
" That's a non sequitur. You're the one who blames a system rather than the people who abuse that system."
That system is maintained by those that abuse it , 'UI' - that's my point !
" No, they're people who have abused the system. Not all Irish politicians are bad people."
Those that maintain and feed off a corrupt system are 'bad people' .
"This is not only a straw man but an ad hominem attack. Kudos."
Ad hominem as in that I , too , can 'debate' in that manner , when need be .
"Why would I comment on things I didn't say? Stop building straw men and be serious."
But you did comment on the income tax issue , 'UI' - are you now claiming that you were mis-interpreted ?
"So what? Again, that's a non sequitur. I could voice support for how Shamrock Rovers performed in a football game but that doesn't mean I support Shamrock Rovers. (And incidentally I don't!) "
It would if you constantly cheered them on for their performance , as you do regularly with the aforementioned political parties . It is a wide fence you sit on , and no mistake .
I asked : "Do you not recognise those four entities as separate countries , then ? What a daft reply from you , 'UI' !"
You replied :" More jibes. Just shows you're struggling (no pun intended)."
Are those four entities not recognised , by you , as legitimate , then ?
" Therefore they have abused the system and ought to be punished for it. The system doesn't make people corrupt though as you insinuate. People should take responsibility for their own actions. Blaming the system (as you do) is a cop-out."
As stated - they maintain the system : it could not continue to operate in such a corrupt fashion were it not for their co-operation and support ! You cannot seriously be that naive ?
" By the way, I don't for a second believe you care about corrupt politicians. Your own party - Republican Sinn Féin - is linked to CIRA who engage in all manner of criminality so I take your moral outrage with a pinch of salt."
I oppose corrupt politicians to the extent that I , for one , will not act as a 'cheerleader' for them on a blog . And name a CIRA member in prison for "criminality" ? I have to use your own favourite 'put down' word here - 'straw' !
" No doubt you'll respond with some more straw men..."
How about this - "The system is not corrupt" . 'Straw' enough for you ?
" Sorry about my late reply Sharon, some of us have Republican activities that extend beyond the internet."
It is now 12.15 am as I type this : I arrived home at 11.45pm , having been out in the area on an Easter Lily run with three other people . Yes , I know what you mean .
" What type am I Sharon? "
You 'talk the talk' , and then go on the internet to let as many people as possible know that you are capable of 'talking the talk' . When challenged , you 'blow hard' (usually
" What type am I Sharon? "
You 'talk the talk' , and then go on the internet to let as many people as possible know that you are capable of 'talking the talk' . When challenged , you 'blow hard' (usually in the pub) in defence of your 'honour' . Should those that have challenged you walk in during your bout of verbosity , you buy them a pint .
" I always see the Brits as the biggest obstacle because they are."
Why , then , do you desire to work on their behalf to 'govern' the Six Counties ?
" You seem to be suggesting that I am some kind of Alcoholic who spends all my time in the pub, the truth couldn't be further from your suggestion."
Read back on your own post and be amazed at which of us introduced alcohol into this discussion .
" I dislike so-called Republicans who come out once a year and are never heard from again and then have the cheek to ridicule us who are constantly working be it in the community, electorally etc to try and advance the struggle."
So do I : and to think those so-called republicans will be sitting , later on today [Sunday 16 April] , on a re-viewing stage , beside representatives of an anti-republican State administration on one side and a representative from the British Embassy on the other side , clapping and cheering at troops who , less than 85 years ago , fought against those who sought to establish a true Republic . It is disgusting , now that you mention it .
" Being a Republican Sharon involves more than setting up 31 tiny commerorations a year where three old men turn up and confess themselves loyal sons of Ireland and then spend the rest of the year bitching about how active Republicans have sold out."
"Three old men" ? 'UI' says its seven ! Get your act together , boys ! By the way - being a 'republican' in this , the 21st century , means offering to administer British rule in a part of this isle . Of course it does .
" What is your proposal on how to get the Brits out? "
How was it achieved in any of their other colonies ?
"Your type are so quick to complain but you have no alternative, it is the people who fought the war and who took the war to the Brits who agree with me now about their being another way forward."
That 'way forward' was always available . The SDLP took it . Dev took it , as did Collins . And MacGiolla and de Rossa . And Adams . And you .
" You would do well to remember that Sharon when you try and imply that you are somehow "more Republican" than I."
Yet it is perfectly acceptable for you to imply that you are 'more republican' than RSF people , as you did in your 'alcohol' post . You hypocrite .
" Just the truth Sharon, I also don't forget those who put those proud Volunteers there."
Like Denis D. , you mean . How many more like him are there in the top ranks of the Provisionals , do you ever wonder ?
" I would not however consider myself a proper Republican if I didn't try and carry on
" I would not however consider myself a proper Republican if I didn't try and carry on their spirit and seek the Unification of our country."
Then do not waste your time and effort with the Provisionals , Chris . That is no longer their objective : they seek to manage the conflict , not solve it .
" Of course I could be a "hardline" Republican who believes in Ideological purity and sit on my arse all year round and complain but I am not like your typical RSF member."
No . You prefer to work against republicanism , and for constitutional nationalism .
" I believe in actions and not just words! "
Unfortunately , yours are 'actions' against your stated goal . Much as the 'WP' before you did .
" Of course it has Sharon, it would survive without me. That is the power of the struggle it doesn't depend on induividuals, any individual! "
It depends on individuals working as a unit - not 'secretely' working against that unit for over twenty years .
I stated (in reply to your 'pub jibes') - "The pub again . Too much alcohol DOES destroy brain cells , then ."
You replied - " Don't worry Sharon I have plenty left. Some people don't seem to have any to begin with."
Do your remaining 'brain cells' tell you that there is something amiss when 'republicans' cheer-on the Free State army ?
Sharon .
'Sharon',
Your posts offer us a good insight as to why Republican Sinn Féin need to remain wedded to a paramilitary organisation - their members can't argue properly! You just keep building those straw men though.
Happy Easter mate.
Sharon
You 'talk the talk'
I may "talk the talk" Sharon but unlike many in RSF I also walk the walk.
and then go on the internet to let as many people as possible know that you are capable of 'talking the talk' .
No Sharon, unlike many in your rabble I don't feel the need to convince myself or anyone else that I am a Republican, I know I am.
The reason I blog is that it allows me the chance to converse with people I otherwise would not engage with.
When challenged , you 'blow hard' (usually in the pub) in defence of your 'honour'
What? Sharon take your head out of your arse and listen carefully. I have never blown hard to defend anyones honor and unlike some other so-called Republicans I never speak about politics in the pub, ever!
Should those that have challenged you walk in during your bout of verbosity , you buy them a pint
I suggest you leave the pseudo psycology to the trained experts, you are crap!
Why , then , do you desire to work on their behalf to 'govern' the Six Counties ?
I don't Sharon, I seek to work on the behalf of the people of the six counties and the Irish people generally, I suggest you think about doing it as well.
Read back on your own post and be amazed at which of us introduced alcohol into this discussion .
I know, I did, your collegues are famous for it in my part of the country.
How was it achieved in any of their other colonies ?
So you are advocating armed struggle?
Are you prepared to raise arms yourself or do other Irish sons and daughters have to die for Irelands honour in your stead?
Yet it is perfectly acceptable for you to imply that you are 'more republican' than RSF people
No Sharon, I am an active Republican. You and your party collegues are not!
Like Denis D. , you mean . How many more like him are there in the top ranks of the Provisionals , do you ever wonder ?
Denis was a tout before you lot even split so don't come that crap with me!
Throughout Irish history the Brits have always had paid spys and informers. Look at the Real or the Continuity, they are riddled with them.
Do you think there are no informers in RSF? You are deluded if you do
Then do not waste your time and effort with the Provisionals , Chris . That is no longer their objective : they seek to manage the conflict , not solve it .
Bullshit Sharon!
What would you suggest I do in order to play my part in establishing the Republic? Join the Continuity? What?
Sharon, I have never cheered on the free state army and I never will. I recognise them as the "legitimate army" of the 26 county state but there is only one Óglaigh Na hÉireann and it is not them.
I will be at the grave of two Volunteers of Óglaigh Na hÉireann in the morning paying my respects, I will not be cheering on Berties army!
Hi 'UI' - Happy Easter Sunday to you !
" Your posts offer us a good insight as to why Republican Sinn Féin need to remain wedded to a paramilitary organisation - their members can't argue properly! You just keep building those straw men though. "
You object to the militant aspect of republicanism but have just spent the last week cheering it on ! Consistent [for you!] .
And the 'straw' people are those who tell you that "there is no corruption" in this State while supporting the politicians that operate within that corrupt State .
Also , I note that you have no further comment regarding the 'four [non-existent!] countries' that we discussed : found an atlas , perhaps ?
Hi Chris - And Happy Easter Sunday to you , too !
" I may "talk the talk" Sharon but unlike many in RSF I also walk the walk."
....all the way to Leinster House and Stormont . And you will no doubt soon be taking that walk in an RUC/PSNI uniform .
" No Sharon, unlike many in your rabble I don't feel the need to convince myself or anyone else that I am a Republican, I know I am."
"Rabble" ? Oh now I remember where I last heard that phrase : I read it on 'UI''s site during the week - it was used by anti-republicans to describe Pearse and his comrades . And what you are , Chris , is a supporter of a Leinster House-registered political party : no more than that , regardless of how you attempt to 'gloss' that fact up .
" The reason I blog is that it allows me the chance to converse with people I otherwise would not engage with."
Blogging allows you to put your point of view out there : you do not 'converse with people' other than to dismiss them as 'alcoholic rabble' as you have done with me . That is not "conversing" , Chris , it is the equivalent of a child throwing a tantrum because he/she has had their position argued against .
" What? Sharon take your head out of your arse and listen carefully. I have never blown hard to defend anyones honor and unlike some other so-called Republicans I never speak about politics in the pub, ever! "
You have 'blown hard' during our discussion about the alleged high level of your political activity , attempting to ridicule my efforts at the same time . And I do not blame you for declining to speak about politics in the pub : if I shared your political viewpoint , I would keep quiet about it , too .
" I suggest you leave the pseudo psycology to the trained experts, you are crap! "
I have met your type before , Chris . The 'wannabe' hard-chaw . Your new uniform should assist you in your desire .
" I don't Sharon, I seek to work on the behalf of the people of the six counties and the Irish people generally, I suggest you think about doing it as well."
By implementing British policy ? ! Like the SDLP and the WP before you ? You may consider yourself a hard worker , but you most certainly are a slow (political) learner .
"I know, I did, your c
"I know, I did, your collegues are famous for it in my part of the country." (In relation to alcohol)
There you go again ! Attempting to dismiss those that do not politically agree with you as 'drunks' . For shame , Chris .
"So you are advocating armed struggle?"
Yes , if it can help achieve the objective and is employed in an organised manner . As the PIRA once did . And has been employed throughout the long history of conflict on this isle . Do you rule armed struggle out for good ?
"Are you prepared to raise arms yourself or do other Irish sons and daughters have to die for Irelands honour in your stead?"
The old 'Godfather of violence' routine , borrowed from the Staters and the British ! I would raise arms myself , yes , in defence of what I believe . Would you not ?
"No Sharon, I am an active Republican. You and your party collegues are not!"
"Denis was a tout before you lot even split so don't come that crap with me!"
Mr. Donaldson worked for the British for over twenty years whilst sitting at your party's leadership level and assisted in steering your organisation into its present compromised position at the behest of his pay-masters in Westminster . No amout of 'hard blow' from you or others can alter those facts , Chris .
" Throughout Irish history the Brits have always had paid spys and informers. Look at the Real or the Continuity, they are riddled with them."
Yes , true - spys and informers in every republican organisation , throughout history . I never claimed otherwise , nor would I . It is one thing to tout on a planned operation (ie Donaldson and Loughgall) but quite another thing when a tout is able to steer an organisation in the political direction that its enemy wishes it to go in without (?) others at leadership level realising what is happening .
"Do you think there are no informers in RSF? You are deluded if you do"
See above answer .
I stated - " Then do not waste your time and effort with the Provisionals , Chris . That is no longer their objective : they seek to manage the conflict , not solve it ."
You replied - " Bullshit Sharon! "
It is the truth , Chris . Your leadership desire to 'manage' the conflict for Westminster . That is not republicanism- it is constitutional nationalism .
" What would you suggest I do in order to play my part in establishing the Republic? Join the Continuity? What?"
For a start - stop working against that objective by promoting Provisionalism . The PSF Cumann in Clondalkin , Dublin (where I live) , fell apart years ago because its members recognised the political contradiction of their position . Three of their members (out of nine) joined RSF , the rest support us occasionally [paper-sales , distributing leaflets etc] but will not become RSF members because , as two of them told me , to do so would be akin to admitting that they were wrong all along . We are not 'the enemy' , Chris .
" Sharon, I have ne
" Sharon, I have never cheered on the free state army and I never will. I recognise them as the "legitimate army" of the 26 county state but there is only one Óglaigh Na hÉireann and it is not them."
Your leadership will today (Sunday 16 April) be on the re-viewing stand at Dublin's GPO as Free State troops march by . They have stated they are doing so on behalf of their organisation . In your name , Chris . How can you not object , feeling as I believe you do about this 'development' ?
"I will be at the grave of two Volunteers of Óglaigh Na hÉireann in the morning paying my respects, I will not be cheering on Berties army!"
Your leadership will be doing both , Chris . The latter in your name . Can they have their cake and eat it , too ? That is up to you and other members of that political party .
Sharon .
Hi Sharon.
Do RSF file for marches in the North?
Hi Observer !
" Do RSF file for marches in the North? "
No . Or south of the border (where it is not so much the case as having to file for 'permission' as being required to agree the route of the march with local representatives of the state) . Nor do we apply for a 'state licence' to distribute Easter Lily's - PSF and the WP do .
Sharon .
Sharon
Is that why your marches are so small
Apologies for that.
If I am interpreting your overall position correctly, you are saying that any strategy other than total victory, delivered in a single package, is unacceptable, immoral, etc.
You are also saying that you would "raise arms" in defence of what you believe.
You are also suggesting that those who "raised arms" during a 25 year conflict are not pursuing worthy goals, in the absence of armed conflict.
You further describe them as, essentially (I'm paraphrasing here) allies of the British government.
You asked, repeatedly, whether or not the Hunger Strikers should have "cheated" (latching on to a word used in an earlier stage of the discussion), suggesting they could have pretended, in order to save their lives.
You appear to miss my point, (hopefully not deliberately) that cheating in war is a tactic as old as war itself. The Hunger Strike was a tactic which was appropriate at the time. Cheating does not imply cowardice, unless you consider the guerrilla tactics of the IRA cowardly.
You said,
"No one I know , or knew , endured a hunger-strike for the re-establishment of Stormont ."
Nor me. Those who were on the Hunger Strikes of 1980 and 1981 support the current tactics and are behind the strategy. They are not being "used" by anyone but you, who obviously knows more about their motivations and beliefs than they do.
Now, should Volunteers refuse to recognise the court?
You stated that failed uprisings represent a "reference point."
You are correct. I do not wish the recent conflict to add to those reference points. Rather, I want it to be recorded in history as the campaign which ended British Rule.
When I asked about your prediliction with consistency of struggle, you didn't address the question.
Is the type of tactic more important than the victory of the Irish people over British rule?
Is the use of armed force more important than the intelligent use of appropriate tactics, designed to bring about the Republic?
Is armed force the object or merely a tactic?
Do those armed groups who share your thinking about those who carried on an armed struggle for 25 years, intend to commence their own armed struggle?
Do you think they will have the support base and expertise necessary to drive the British out of Ireland?
I respect anyone's right to advocate for resistance to British rule in Ireland.
I do not accept your right to denigrate the sacrifice of those who died in the service of the Republic by claiming their sacrifice was in vain and placing your own interpretation on their actions.
Your attitude toward "consistency" and your lack of understanding of Strategy, Tactics and Ruse De Guerre suggest that you, and those who share your views, would condemn those of us who lived through the last 30 years as bit players in another "reference Point".
I believe I was correct, Sharon.
Your views, and those who share them, display a lack o
A lack of flexibility and foresight, which is certain to bring failure in any campaign against an enemy as resourceful and cunning as the British.
This isn't a game.
Glorious failures are not on the agenda. We have enough "reference" points in our history.
Only victory is acceptable.
Whatever it takes.
Hi Observer !
" Is that why your marches are so small
Apologies for that."
So you have no objection to PSF 'applying' to a Westminster-established 'police force' ( RUC/PSNI) for 'permission' to march in their own country ? A 'bigger' crowd is worth that , is it ? Quantity over quality , methinks !
" If I am interpreting your overall position correctly, you are saying that any strategy other than total victory, delivered in a single package, is unacceptable, immoral, etc."
'Total victory' (ie British political and military withdrawal and the dropping of the jurisdictional claim) - Yes . 'One package' - No , not expected from them , unfortunately . A statement of intent from Westminster would save an awful lot more grief .
" You are also saying that you would "raise arms" in defence of what you believe."
And I asked you would you not do the same ?
" You are also suggesting that those who "raised arms" during a 25 year conflict are not pursuing worthy goals, in the absence of armed conflict."
Not in 'the absence of armed conflict' , no - but by following the particular (well-trodden) political path they are on .
"You further describe them as, essentially (I'm paraphrasing here) allies of the British government."
What else could those Irish men and women who seek to implement British policy in this country be regarded as ? Patriots ?
"You asked, repeatedly, whether or not the Hunger Strikers should have "cheated" (latching on to a word used in an earlier stage of the discussion), suggesting they could have pretended, in order to save their lives."
....only after you , yourself , stated that yes , you would 'cheat' . But why did'nt they 'cheat' , do you think ?
"You appear to miss my point, (hopefully not deliberately) that cheating in war is a tactic as old as war itself. The Hunger Strike was a tactic which was appropriate at the time. Cheating does not imply cowardice, unless you consider the guerrilla tactics of the IRA cowardly."
The hunger-strike is a tactic , yes - but the use of it is not 'cheating' . Why did those brave men stick it out until the end ? Principles ? Was it because they saw that to 'cheat' (ie 'accept' criminal status) whilst telling the world that they do not really mean it was unacceptable to them ?
I stated - "No one I know , or knew , endured a hunger-strike for the re-establishment of Stormont ."
You replied - " Nor me. Those who were on the Hunger Strikes of 1980 and 1981 support the current tactics and are behind the strategy. They are not being "used" by anyone but you, who obviously knows more about their motivations and beliefs than they do."
That particular 'house' is divided , Observer , as you well know . I will mention one family name as proof of my claim : Sands . One of his sisters condemns the political position of PSF
That particular 'house' is divided , Observer , as you well know . I will mention one family name as proof of my claim : Sands . One of his sisters condemns the political position of PSF every chance she gets .And there are others who want nothing to do with your use of 'tactics' ['cheating'] , which , I might add (again) the hunger strikers themselves refused to use . Your attempt to use the 1981 people as 'justification' for selling-out is truly disgusting .
" Now, should Volunteers refuse to recognise the court?"
Not so fast : you still have not answered my earlier question - should the hunger-strikers have 'cheated' in order to save themselves ? 'Yes' or 'No' , and an explaination of either answer , should help clear this particular debt of yours .
You wrote - "You stated that failed uprisings represent a "reference point."
You are correct. I do not wish the recent conflict to add to those reference points. Rather, I want it to be recorded in history as the campaign which ended British Rule."
The present PSF campaign is about managing the occupation for Westminster , not seeking their removal !
" When I asked about your prediliction with consistency of struggle, you didn't address the question."
No - read back and discover that I did , in fact , answer . Obviously not the answer you wanted !
" Is the type of tactic more important than the victory of the Irish people over British rule? "
Not in my opinion - but the ploy to 'hire' locals to implement Westminster's policy is a British 'tactic' that they have employed in all their colonies . And it is a British ploy that PSF , like others before them , have fallen for .
" Is the use of armed force more important than the intelligent use of appropriate tactics, designed to bring about the Republic? "
Whatever happened to 'the ballot box in one hand and the armalite in the other' ? Perhaps the gun-oil stains the armani suits . Also - do the British not use both methods ? Why should the oppressed voluntarily confine themselves to only the methods approved by their oppressor ?
" Is armed force the object or merely a tactic? "
A tactic : one which , to date , has served us well , would'nt you agree ?
" Do those armed groups who share your thinking about those who carried on an armed struggle for 25 years, intend to commence their own armed struggle? "
Yes . By the way - some of those who "carried on the armed struggle for 25[sic] years" are no longer with PIRA , and have not been with PIRA for a number of years . News to you ?
" Do you think they will have the support base and expertise necessary to drive the British out of Ireland?"
Not at first , no more than the PIRA had .
" I respect anyone's right to advocate for resistance to British rule in Ireland."
Only political 'resistance' you mean , I presume ?
" I respect anyone's right to advocate for resistance to British rule in Ireland."
Only political 'resistance' you mean , I presume ?
" I do not accept your right to denigrate the sacrifice of those who died in the service of the Republic by claiming their sacrifice was in vain and placing your own interpretation on their actions."
Again - did they die for a new Stormont ?
" Your attitude toward "consistency" and your lack of understanding of Strategy, Tactics and Ruse De Guerre suggest that you, and those who share your views, would condemn those of us who lived through the last 30 years as bit players in another "reference Point"."
All of us on this isle have 'lived through' over eight centuries of oppression , Observer - your partitionist use of the time-frames of "25 years" and "30 years" speak of your true frame of mind .
" I believe I was correct, Sharon."
And I believe you are as 'correct' as are the SDLP .
" Your views, and those who share them, display a lack of flexibility and foresight, which is certain to bring failure in any campaign against an enemy as resourceful and cunning as the British."
And the 'flexibility' of your leadership is being taken advantage of by Mr. Ahern and Mr. Blair : as others throughout our history have been taken advantage of by representatives of those two institutions . But this time it's 'different' , right ?
"This isn't a game."
You and yours have been placed in a 'game' , Observer , and are being 'played' like patsys by those who have done so before .
" Glorious failures are not on the agenda. We have enough "reference" points in our history."
And the 'GFA' is another one , in reference (yet again) to 'How Not To Do It' .
" Only victory is acceptable."
'Victory' through Stormont and Free Statism . That type of 'victory' prolongs the struggle , not solves it .
" Whatever it takes."
So even hunger-strikers 'cheating' is acceptable to you , is it ? Is that included in your use of the term 'whatever' ?
Sharon .
Hi Sharon
You seem to have difficulty answering some of my questions.
I have answered your point about the Hunger Strikes.
"The Hunger Strike was a tactic which was appropriate at the time. Cheating does not imply cowardice, unless you consider the guerrilla tactics of the IRA cowardly."
"Not so fast : you still have not answered my earlier question - should the hunger-strikers have 'cheated' in order to save themselves ? 'Yes' or 'No' , and an explaination of either answer , should help clear this particular debt of yours ."
I don't owe you any debt, Sharon.
Now please tell me if Volunteers should recognise courts.
"All of us on this isle have 'lived through' over eight centuries of oppression"
I didn't realise you were that old.
I've been around for a lot less than that.
"Only political 'resistance' you mean , I presume ?"
When that is the appropriate tactic.
As it is now.
"No , not expected from them , unfortunately . A statement of intent from Westminster would save an awful lot more grief ."
Wouldn't it just!
When can we expect this?
"Not in my opinion - but the ploy to 'hire' locals to implement Westminster's policy is a British 'tactic' that they have employed in all their colonies . And it is a British ploy that PSF , like others before them , have fallen for ."
Because you don't understand a tactic doesn't make it invalid.
"Yes . By the way - some of those who "carried on the armed struggle for 25[sic] years" are no longer with PIRA , and have not been with PIRA for a number of years . News to you ?"
When do you expect this armed struggle to start?
They've had almost a decade to prepare, given that the IRA campaign commenced within months of the pogroms. It must be going to be really something.
"your partitionist use of the time-frames of "25 years" and "30 years" speak of your true frame of mind ."
I must have missed the campaign in the South.
"So even hunger-strikers 'cheating' is acceptable to you , is it ?"
Your inability to understand a simple point does not bode well for the future of your organisation.
Spurious arguments don't cut any ice.
"That particular 'house' is divided , Observer , as you well know . I will mention one family name as proof of my claim : Sands . One of his sisters condemns the political position of PSF every chance she gets .And there are others who want nothing to do with your use of 'tactics' ['cheating'] , which , I might add (again) the hunger strikers themselves refused to use . Your attempt to use the 1981 people as 'justification' for selling-out is truly disgusting ."
That particular house is not divided, Sharon.
I don't know of a single Hunger Strike survivor who supports your sordid use of their name to further your agenda.
Neither do you.
Your arguments continue to be puerile and based on a "Boys Own" history of Irish Republicanism.
Your arguments are specious
Hi Observer !
" You seem to have difficulty answering some of my questions.
I have answered your point about the Hunger Strikes.
"The Hunger Strike was a tactic which was appropriate at the time. Cheating does not imply cowardice, unless you consider the guerrilla tactics of the IRA cowardly."
That is not an answer to the question I asked , which was : " Should the hunger-strikers have 'cheated' in order to have saved their own lives?"
You attempted an answer by stating " Whatever it takes" : therefore I take it you are of the opinion that those men should have 'cheated' to save their own lives , yes ?
In my previous post to you , I did , again , state - " you still have not answered my earlier question - should the hunger-strikers have 'cheated' in order to save themselves ? 'Yes' or 'No' , and an explaination of either answer , should help clear this particular debt of yours ."
No 'Yes' or 'No' reply from you , Observer , yet you expect me to continue answering your questions !
" Now please tell me if Volunteers should recognise courts."
After you answer my earlier question re the hunger-strikers and cheating .
I stated - "All of us on this isle have 'lived through' over eight centuries of oppression"
You replied - " I didn't realise you were that old.
I've been around for a lot less than that."
Have a look at the words lived through , again , and tell me you still do not know what I meant .
I asked - "Only political 'resistance' you mean , I presume ?"
You replied - " When that is the appropriate tactic. As it is now."
Was that always the 'appropriate tactic' in relation to the Six County issue ? Or is it only 'appropriate' now , despite an armed campaign having been deemed 'appropriate' before regarding that issue by those , like yourself , that once refused to be instructed by Westminster and Leinster House in how you should conduct your campaign of opposition ?
I wrote - " No , not expected from them , unfortunately . A statement of intent from Westminster would save an awful lot more grief ."
You replied - " Wouldn't it just! When can we expect this? "
Your party is 'inside the system' , Observer . You tell me !
I wrote - " Not in my opinion - but the ploy to 'hire' locals to implement Westminster's policy is a British 'tactic' that they have employed in all their colonies . And it is a British ploy that PSF , like others before them , have fallen for ."
You replied - " Because you don't understand a tactic doesn't make it invalid."
Myself and others like me that know our history "understand" this particular British 'tactic' . And , from their point of view , it's a valid tactic . That , of course , does not mean that we are obliged t
Myself and others like me that know our history "understand" this particular British 'tactic' . And , from their point of view , it's a valid tactic . That , of course , does not mean that we are obliged to play along with it .
You wrote - " When do you expect this armed struggle to start?
They've had almost a decade to prepare, given that the IRA campaign commenced within months of the pogroms. It must be going to be really something."
I believe there has already been some armed action against the British military presence , has there not ? (And no , I do not mean by surrendering weapons over to them !)
I wrote re earlier comments from you - " your partitionist use of the time-frames of "25 years" and "30 years" speak of your true frame of mind ."
You replied - " I must have missed the campaign in the South."
Has there been no campaign in this State against the British presence ? No assistance supplied by those living outside the Six County area ? What a silly statement on your part , Observer ! (Not very 'observant' , are you ? !)
I asked - "So even hunger-strikers 'cheating' is acceptable to you , is it ?"
You replied [NOT 'answered'] - " Your inability to understand a simple point does not bode well for the future of your organisation. Spurious arguments don't cut any ice."
What a blatant cop-out on your part !
You wrote - " I don't know of a single Hunger Strike survivor who supports your sordid use of their name to further your agenda. Neither do you."
Do you dismiss the Sands , Ward and O' Conaill family's so quickly ? Shame on you .
You wrote - " Your arguments continue to be puerile and based on a "Boys Own" history of Irish Republicanism.
Your arguments are specious . "
One of your leadership figures , Francie Molloy , explained your political position in a much more forthright manner than you are capable of , or are prepared to do : in a media briefing in March 1999 , that man stated - " Republicans are prepared to work an Executive . We are really prepared to administer British rule in Ireland for the foreseeable future . The very principle of partition is accepted . "
Yes - 'Up the Rebels' , Observer !
Sharon .
Sharon
Sorry for not getting back to you.
"Do you dismiss the Sands , Ward and O' Conaill family's so quickly ? Shame on you ."
This doesn't address the point I made (which I think you know).
You have simply challenged evrything I said, without showing a valid alternative.
You mention a campaign which has been ongoing! How long before the Brits are driven into the sea, at this operational rate?
"What a blatant cop-out on your part !"
You seem incapable of understanding basic English.
"Has there been no campaign in this State against the British presence ? No assistance supplied by those living outside the Six County area ? What a silly statement on your part , Observer ! (Not very 'observant' , are you ? !)"
An armed campaign?
To overthrow the state?
Surely not a "political campaign"
You have clearly latched on to a deliberate misinterpretation of the word "cheat". If this is your level of debate, you have a serious problem.
If you think that continually referring to a specious point, Paisley fashion, will provoke me into complying with your debate parameters, you are mistaken.
"Why should the oppressed voluntarily confine themselves to only the methods approved by their oppressor ?"
Why indeed! The Brits are quite good at counter insurgency operations. The marginal operational effectiveness of your friends is evidence of this.
I don't intend to continue this, Sharon. Your friends will, presumably, not recognise the court, for fear of being accused of cheating, and serve lengthy terms in jail. No doubt happy in the knowledge that they showed the Brits.
Not free, no republic, but they showed the Brits.
Beir Bua.
Commenting by HaloScan
