Interesting find who is sponsering it. I did hear that the Greens had a bill that include all the things you mentioned but I didn't here of the all-Ireland voting bit.
http://www.irishelection.com/wor...ordpress/?
p=153
Just read the bill the ammendment is
Every Citizen who has the right to vote at an election for members
of Da´ il E´ ireann regardless of their residency shall have the right to
vote at an election for President.
So I don't think that gives the vote to the people in the North as they can't vote in Dail elections. But someone from the South who lives abroad. Could come home and vote so they are given a vote.
simon,
Doesn't this bit contradict the bit you highlighted? Quote:
"Section1 amends Article 12 of the Constitution to allow for the
following: the opportunity for those not resident in the State of
Ireland but citizens of the State of Ireland to vote in Presidential
Elections, ...
Not resident in the State but citizens of it would surely have to take into account northerners with Irish citizenship? Otherwise there would be a big legal mess.
Well the only thing that matters is what is put into the constition what you quote is just the explanation.
However on consideration considering that British people can vote in the Dail Elections and Northern Irish people if they are residant in the South. Does that extend the right to them ?
http://www.oasis.gov.ie/
moving_c...ht_to_vote.html
I am confused. I am guessing this is the Green Parties bill
Simon,
I've just checked the Oasis site here and according to them:
Rules
Who is eligible to vote in elections and referenda?
- Irish citizens can vote in every election and referendum
- British citizens may vote at Dáil, European and local elections
- Other EU citizens may vote at European and local elections
- Non-EU citizens can vote at local elections only
So according to the quote you gave:
Every Citizen who has the right to vote at an election for members
of Da´ il E´ ireann regardless of their residency shall have the right to
vote at an election for President
That covers British citizens and I think it's also a clever and cute way of ensuring that those from the US for example with Irish citizenship can't vote!
The yanks could vote if they are irish citizens as could the Queen
Simon,
I don't think the Yanks could since I'm pretty sure they can't vote in Dáil elections and according to the bit you cited, that is a requirement.
The Queen might be a diferent story though.
Maybe someone with a good understanding of the legal stipulations can explain it.
As far as I know, people from the North would be allowed to vote which is the main thing.
Having looked at it in further detail there does seem to be an inherent contradiction between the amendment itself and the Explanatory Memorandum which sets out the Provisions of the Bill. This is the planned amendment:
"Every Citizen who has the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Eireann regardless of their residency shall have the right to vote at an election for President"
So every citizen who can vote in Dáil elections (which includes Irish and British citizens) "regardless of their residency" (no matter where they live) can vote in Presidential elections. That seems very sweeping but according to the Explanatory Memorandum:
"Section 1 amends Article 12 of the Constitution to allow for the following: the opportunity for those not resident in the State of Ireland but citizens of the State of Ireland to vote in Presidential Elections...
Again it makes reference to those who don't reside in the 26 counties to vote in Presidential elections but it only refers to "citizens of the State of Ireland" and makes no mention of British citizens.
Very confusing.
I think those in the North with Irish citizenship would definitely be entitled to vote in Presidential elections but I'm wondering now if it extends to those with British citizenship...
SF recently called again for Irish passport offices to be opened in the North. If the UK govt really wanted to show its impartiality we could ask northern Post Offices to administer Irish passport applications and joint applications. They need all the work they can get.
Forgive me for being pedantic for a moment but...
This use of 'the State of Ireland' is new to me and to be honest appears to be yet another way the Irish government is using to avoid referring to its state by its description, the Republic of Ireland.
Reads very strangely but must have been deliberate.
Are you sure it's a Government bill, UI?
Major scoop, if it is.
UI,
Unfortunately my understanding is that only those who has the right to vote in general elections may vote for the President. The right to vote in general elections is limited to Irish & British citizens resident in the state. This means that citizens resident outside the state, i.e. the north-east of Ireland do not have the right to vote in general elections, and will not have the right to vote for the President under this bill. It just means that if you or I are outside the state at the time of a Presidential election, we will be able to vote. An Irish citizen resident in Belfast does not have the right to vote in a general election, and under this bill will not have the right to vote in a Presidential election.
I'm afraid it's not what we're looking for, unfortunately.
I am not sure about that pope. If someone is out of the state on holiday they would not be resident in that country. It is widly opened to interriptation.
Be interesting to see how it is qualified.
I can see the headlines in the Independent.
"Queen gets to vote for Irish Presidant"
It could get very tricky. I mean if british citizens get to vote. Then it could result in the Island of Britian electing the Irish presidant due to their superiour numbers.
I would say it will change before it is past if it pastes.
I think it is a Green Party Bill Tom
No Simon,
You have to be registered to vote in a constituency in the Republic of Ireland to vote in a GE. You need an address here to be registered, this is what I mean by resident. If the Queen bought a house in Dublin say, and registered to vote there, then yes she would be entitled to vote in Dublin. This is talking about allowing Irish citizens, registered to vote already, the ability to vote when absent from the State. A British citizen wouldn't qualify for this absentee ballot, unless they also hold Irish citizenship. Also someone from Belfast who is not registered in a constituency in the Republic cannot vote in a GE, no matter what their passport says. However under this bill I could move to Belfast and vote from there for the President, because I am on the register of electors in Kildare South. Right now I would have to travel back to Kildare to cast my vote.
You can't vote without being registered, and you can't get registered without an address.
Pope
"The right to vote in general elections is limited to Irish & British citizens resident in the state. This means that citizens resident outside the state, i.e. the north-east of Ireland do not have the right to vote in general elections, and will not have the right to vote for the President under this bill."
That's the status quo but isn't that what tehy are altering under the amendment? Isn't that the whole point? Here's the key bit:
"Every Citizen who has the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Eireann regardless of their residency shall have the right to vote at an election for President"
To me, the wording "regardless of their residency" leaves it open to be challenged by those from the North and even if it's not their intention to allow this, as we have seen in the past, for example in the 'X case', the constitution can be interpreted in many ways.
If they wanted something along the lines of what you suggest then they should have left out the "regardless of their residency" bit and simply said:
"Every Citizen who has the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Eireann normally resident in the State shall have the right to vote at an election for President
"This is talking about allowing Irish citizens, registered to vote already, the ability to vote when absent from the State"
If that is the intention of this Bill then they are leaving themsleves open for a huge mess in relation to citizens from the North.
It would mean if I move to Timbuktu I could still vote for the President yet an Irish citizen from Belfast could not. I am certain that the wording of this Bill will lead to problems.
Mike,
The wording here is very strange alright. I am inclined to agree with you that it is deliberate.
That covers British citizens and I think it's also a clever and cute way of ensuring that those from the US for example with Irish citizenship can't vote!
How would that disqualify them? So let me get this straight... British people who aren't even citizens would get to vote for the president... but people who ARE citizens would not. That... makes no sense at all.
If the idea is to give those of us who are citizens but are not resident in the Republic the means to elect the president, then that means me as much as some guy sitting in County Down who can't vote for TDs anymore than I can. Otherwise, be clear about it: this is for people in Northern Ireland only; the Diaspora need not apply. "Not Irish enough." 
UI,
You're emphasis is wrong, you should be looking at this part...
Every Citizen who has the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Eireann normally resident in the State shall have the right to vote at an election for President
The bolded part excludes anyone but Irish and British citizens registered to vote in the Republic of Ireland, this excludes Irish citizens in the north-east who aren't registered in a constituency in the Republic.
I'm sorry truly, but this is not what we are looking for.
Apart from anything else this isn't even a government bill, and is being pushed by the greens, I would vote against this bill as it stands, because it denies the right of northerners to vote in a presidential election, unless they have an address in the Republic.
If this is going to be done, it ought to be universal. I can see not letting people outside the country vote for TDs... who would they be voting for? They have no constituency. But the presidency is the one office that belongs to all the nation. It's not tied to geography except the state of Ireland itself... which is precisely what citizenship is tied to. Any Irish citizen, anywhere -- anyone legally entitled to carry the passport -- ought to be able to register at the local embassy or consulate to vote for the president. Anything less is an insult and just one more instance of Irish gerrymandering... you and you, but not you and you... There's been far too much of that. Do it right, or don't do it at all.
Can this UI guy not READ?
Given his wilful misunderstanding of my posts, his mistaking this for a BILL, his inability to read what this actually SAYS, rather than what he would LIKE it to say, it would appear NOT. Now, for goodness sake, DON'T call him stupid or anything...
Jo,
What is that in aid of? As I was frequently told in the boy scouts, act your age not your shoe size...
I'll ignore Jo's insults above as she's obviously starved of attention. Try playing the ball and not the man, Jo. I know you have difficulty with that...
Pope,
I see your point but here is the official wording:
Every Citizen who has the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Eireann regardless of their residency shall have the right to vote at an election for President"
Don't you think it's feasible that those four little words "regardless of their residency" could open up the potential for those from the North?
According to the Explanatory Memorandum:
"Section 1 amends Article 12 of the Constitution to allow for the following: the opportunity for those not resident in the State of Ireland but citizens of the State of Ireland to vote in Presidential Elections"
Again that could be interpreted to mean those from the North.
UI,
The explanatory memorandum certainly leaves the door open, however the proposed constitutional ammendment slams it shut, and in the end that's all that matters.
The words "regardless of residency" in relation to those in the north-east are rendered completely useless by the phrase "who has the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Eireann".
The subject here is "Every citizen who has the right to vote...", "regardless of residency" is just a qualifier to that, so that those who "have the right to vote..." but are not resident are not excluded. It's unfortunatley not open to any other interpretation, "who has the right to vote" is non negotiable.
I would suggest that if we want to see Irish citizens resident in the north-east (and elsewhere primate) have the right to vote for the president of the nation, we should reject this ammendment if it ever comes to a referrendum. I doubt it will though, it won't make it through the oireachtas, not with the greens backing it. It's mainly designed to allow smaller parties to get presidential candidates nominated, which the big 3 aren't going to support.
Pope,
You make a strong case but I think the wording is more vague than you give it credit for and you know yourself that the Supreme Court can interpret these things in a variety of ways.
It's so vague that if it was put to me in that format I would probably vote for it on the grounds that it could be interpreted to takee those from NI into account.
"The subject here is "Every citizen who has the right to vote...", "regardless of residency" is just a qualifier to that, so that those who "have the right to vote..." but are not resident are not excluded. It's unfortunatley not open to any other interpretation, "who has the right to vote" is non negotiable."
I'm not so sure. Legally, British and Irish citizens have the right to vote in Dáil elections. The wording makes no mention beyond that. Who's to say that the Supreme Court won't interpret it in this way:
Every citizen who can vote in Dáil elections (includes Irish and British citizens)
..."regardless of their residency" - no matter where they live
They can all vote in Presidential elections.
You make good points though and that's why I'm so surprised at the wording.
Talk about clutching at straws!
UI has completely misunderstood this (probably inconsequential) bill.
(a) It's unlikely to become law, and;
(b) even if it did, it would not give a vote to NI residents.
Talk about getting the wrong end of stick!
I think UI's embarrassed himself big time here.
The words "regardless of residency" in relation to those in the north-east are rendered completely useless by the phrase "who has the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Eireann".
But doesn't every citizen posess this right, if not actually the means necessary to express it at a given moment? Residency is a legal requirement, but the right to vote in elections per se is a requisite of citizenship.
In other words, if I'm mistaken, then just what is this new proposal offering? The right to vote in Irish presidential elections provided one is a citizen resident in the Republic? Wow... earth-shaking stuff, that. :/ At best, this interpretation suggests to me that a Jackeen in Manchester for a soccer game need not scamper home to vote in the presidential election he forgot about... he can vote in England. "Serious convenience," as a cheque-cashing company says hereabouts.
Is that it??
the current wording of the constitution is
"Every citizen who has the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Éireann shall have the right to vote at an election for President"
So If popes interpetation is right then what is it really for?
Good question, simon.
willow,
Why would I be embarrassed? The constitution can be interpreted in many different ways (and has been in the past, see here.
Even if it's not as clear-cut as I had hoped there is definite scope, in my view anyway, for including those Irish citizens from the North.
I think you're just a bit worried. 
Why would I be embarrassed?
Because you have proclaimed:
"UI Exclusive - Presidential voting rights to extend to NI!
My goodness they kept this one quiet but thankfully United Irelander has its finger on the pulse!
All based on a misunderstanding.
willow,
You have not attempted to explain why you think I have "misunderstood" the bill. I have explained my thoughts on the Bill.
Far from being embarrassed, I'm quite chuffed that I have broken this story that no other blog has picked up on.
As I said above, even if it's not as clear-cut as I had hoped there is definite scope, in my view, for including those Irish citizens from the North. We'll see how it plays out.
For the sad, it seems to be a Green private members stunt (time waste?) at the earliest stages. Dan Boyle (Dónal Ó Baoil) puts his name at the bottom for the hard of reading.
If it makes 2nd stage it'll be a miracle.
Did he write this on the bog?
UI
If it means what you think that it does are you really sure you want us voting, you might not like who we vote for. If anyone would be daft enough to give me such a vote I would use it but in my interest not theirs. Be careful what you wish for 
UI
You have not attempted to explain why you think I have "misunderstood" the bill. I have explained my thoughts on the Bill.
I have. You think the bill is going to give votes to NI residents, but it's not. It won't get through parliament and, even if it did, it wouldn't do what you claim it would.
Far from being embarrassed, I'm quite chuffed that I have broken this story that no other blog has picked up on.
It's a non-story.
As I said above, even if it's not as clear-cut as I had hoped there is definite scope, in my view, for including those Irish citizens from the North. We'll see how it plays out.
It won't "play out". It's a non-story.
willow
"I have. You think the bill is going to give votes to NI residents, but it's not. It won't get through parliament and, even if it did, it wouldn't do what you claim it would."
Like I said, you haven't given a reason for why you think it won't give NI residents a vote, you simply say "it's not". That's not an argument I'm afraid but I suspect you know that.
Aileen,
I'm sure you'd use your vote quite sensibly.
Yawn,
At least we're seeing some movement on the issue of Presidential reform. It would be good to see reform of the Seanad too and the chance for Northern MPs to speak down here.
Simon,
" the current wording of the constitution is
"Every citizen who has the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Éireann shall have the right to vote at an election for President"
So If popes interpetation is right then what is it really for?"
It is to allow a regestered voter who is absent from the state at the time of the election to vote, simple as that.
The main thrust of this Bill is to allow smaller parties to nominate a candidate for the presidency, therefore it is doomed.
UI, if in the unlikely event this made it to a referendum, I would urge anyone to vote "no" because it is extremely unlikely to be interpreted the way you would want it to be, and would stretch interpretation of the english language to beyond breaking point.
Again, this is not what we are looking for, we need those in the north-east to have an ironclad right to vote. This is not it, and believe me it won't be interpreted that way. I want this as much as you, trust me on this one, this bill will be buried long before you or I even get a chance to make a final decision on it.
My advice is to forget you ever saw this.
Well I have emailed Green Party TD Dan Boyle (and asked him for an interview to boot ) to see if he can clear up this matter and to confirm if it was ever really intended for northern nationalists.
I'll publish his response if and when I get it.
United Irelander,
I really can't be bothered commenting on this particuar thread, but there is one thing I find very, very frustrating about your blog.
"Alot" is not one word, it is two... "A lot of people", "A lot of issues".
Jamie,
Quite right. Sorry about that. I'll do my best to avoid that in future.
Thanks a lot.
absent from the state
I still don't concede. For some one to be considered not residant in the state they have to live out side of the state for more then 189 days. "regardless of residancy" suggest to me that they can non-residants i.e be out of the state for 189 days that is a pretty big absence
Simon,
Example:
I'm registered to vote in Kildare. I move to Australia, right now I can't vote in a presidential election unless I come home to Kildare to cast my vote. Under the proposed constitutional change I would be able to cast my vote from Australia.
If I have kids in Australia, they are entitled to an Irish passport, but not entitled to vote unless they register to vote in a constituency in teh Republic, for which they would need an address.
It's nothing to do with how long you are out or in the state, it's to do with being registered to vote in the state.
Under the proposed constitutional change I would be able to cast my vote from Australia.
I see what you are saying. But I think that you can't actually be registered to vote unless you have been residant in the state for 189 of the previous 365 days. I could be wrong on that though.
Also the legislation says nothing about being registered to vote it mentions residancy as the inportant point.
Simon,
No the important point is "Every Citizen who has the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Eireann..."
The only people who have the right to vote for TD's are those registered in the state.
it is a wonderful concept to allow people of all ireland to vote for president. just look at the last italian election and who was allowed to stand and who was allowed to vote. portuguese worldwide are allowed to vote in their embassys. are we just not catching up with everyone else. slan
portuguese worldwide are allowed to vote in their embassys. are we just not catching up with everyone else.
Yeah, it's a frustratingly odd position to take, for a nation that gets so teary-eyed and beery-eyed over its vast diaspora. We were nice to have when everyone found it hand to have cousins to flop with while looking for work, but come the good times, apparently we don't count for much. :/
UI, are you sure this is an Irish Govt-backed bill and not just a Green bill?
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