Replace the word Israel with the word Hezbollah and your latest rant will have an air of truth. If not, your rant remains another example of your declining mental aptitude.
Click http://tinyurl.com/otkoc for proof:
"THIS is the picture that damns Hezbollah. It is one of several, smuggled from behind Lebanon's battle lines, showing that Hezbollah is waging war amid suburbia.
The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.
Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon.
The photographs, from the Christian area of Wadi Chahrour in the east of Beirut, were taken by a visiting journalist and smuggled out by a friend.
[...]"
"dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon."
Ok that make's everything ok they can kill as many innocent s as they like now get real they dont want to risk ground forces so they drop bombs (thanks to u.s)and wipe out whoever they want .For once i agree with u.i and say when is a nation going to grow ball and not be afaid of being labelled anti semitic.
Wow, fantastic argument anselm.
So let me get this straight - an anti-aircraft gun pictured in a residential area (which the Israelis are bombing) somehow 'damns Hezbollah'?
Huh?
How dare those people try to protect themselves from Israeli attacks! They should simply stand about and let themselves be blown to kingdom come, isn't that right anselm?
You sure you're not liberal yourself anselm because you seem to be smoking something very strong. 
In the real world, a picture of a dead child courtesy of Israel who have ignored the concerns of the rest of the world damns the Israelis. Maybe there wouldn't be anti-aircraft guns about if, y'know, Israel stopped blowing the shit out of these very areas?
Now go back to what you were doing anselm which presumably was carrying your gun about your house, Charlton Heston-style, in fear of a dangerous liberal that might be lurking in your closet, ready at any moment to leap out at you with facts and evidence that destroy your ignorant, one dimensional views.
UI,
Here's more reality: http://tinyurl.com/fo5mb
"Senior IDF officers told reporters a short time ago that there is a contradiction in the timing of the bombing of the village of Kana and reports of the explosion that killed more than 50 civilians and set off world-wide condemnation of Israel. Air Force Commander Amir Eshel left open the possibility that Hizbullah terrorists blew up the building or that an unknown cause set off explosives which were stored in the structure.
He explained that recorded information shows that Israeli Air Force planes bombed the building between midnight and 1 a.m. and that the next attack at 7:30 a.m. was up to 500 yards away. He said reports of the killing of civilians came around 8 a.m. "It is not clear what happened" between 1 a.m. and 8 a.m., he said.
Brigadier General Ido Nehushtan pointed out that Hizbullah terrorists have fired more than 150 rockets from the village of Kana since the beginning of the war."
Could it be possible that, 'again,' Islamists would kill their own in order to win a war of propaganda? Um, yep. Because it is in the Qu'ran and it has been standard practice by Islamists to kill anyone, inlcuding their own to further their broad based facists goals.
Sorry to inform you of the following UI; I don't own, carry or desire to own a gun.
Long live Israel!
Re the first photo/story:
If true, that would absolutely be damning in my book to Hezbollah. The intention is clearly not just to blend into a civilian area, but, if, if that is really a Christian area, it is not one that would be supporting Hezbollah in the first place. So, sorry, UI, iT would NOT have been an area that the Israelis would have been boming.
This would be a Hezbollah attempt to attract fire to a broader area, while blending in.
UI's a fine fellow, but here he sees an absolute evil and a desire to kill civilians in Israel's actions which no fair observer ever could.
I don't ask anyone to give Israel a free pass or to believe everything that they say, but anyone who wants a reality check, especially any European who is not privy to any view that contradicts the "Israel is deliberately killing civilians" line should make period looks at Little Green Footballs, or
the Jerusalem Post or Ha'aretz
And here is a Lebanese blog
It is absolutely imperative to diversify one's news sources in this atmosphere, accessing as many original sources as possible. If you're only relying on BBC, RTE and/or CNN, you are being manipulated.
Oops that would be
Little Green Footballs as in "the indispensible LGF"
"I continue to ask myself how many more innocent people have to die before the Americans, the British and other leading players in the international community denounce these heinous crimes against humanity?" - UI
I'd say that the cracks are starting to show on the British side, anyway. Jack Straw, the former British Foreign Secretary (and a Jew), condemned Israel's attack on Lebanon, pointing out that attacking the country and its citizens was not the same thing as attacking Hezbollah - a statement of the obvious. He was particularly angry that Israel had refused a UN proposed three-day ceasefire to allow injured children and elderly people could be removed to safety. The fact that Israel is deliberately murdering civilians and refusing to allow injured civilians to be treated for their injuries (both of which are war crimes under the Geneva Convention) is obviously of growing concern to those who don't make excuses for terrorism, be it from a government or a group.
Hezbollah operates from civilian areas deliberately using Lebanese civilians as a human shield. What do you expect Israel suppose to do? There is a matter of intent - Israelis are targeting terrorists and terrorists deliberately target Israeli civilians. Blame Hezbollah for the casualties on Lebanese side. Jan Egeland, the U.N. humanitarian chief, said ""Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children."
http://www.news.com.au/
heraldsun...007220,00.html#
I find it odd, UI, that you support the US in Iraq, where even more innocent civilians are being killed on a daily basis and yet are against what Israel is doing in Lebanon. It seems to me that Israel is very much like the US in this situation, and thriving on American support. With the minor exception that with what Hezbollah does directly effects the citizens of Israel, whereas nothing Saddam did directly affected Americans (except for the pesky oil issue of course.)
Oh do shut up, gimp. When you pull Hezbollah armed terrorists out under from the bodies that this thread refers to, then run in with your crap and try and make a case that justifies murder of innocent civilians. Until then, it's just a pile of bodies of civilians with not a terrorist among them.
Err, sorry, William, we posted at the same time. My post (above) was not directed at you.
UI well done as usual.
Here's the question I have, and it is a very simple one.
The Israeli's keep telling us about Hezbollah firing from within civilian positions. That excuse has been used by many's the oppressor, but let's say for one minute tat it is true.
Logical Question then is: How many Hezbollah members died in this particular horrific attack? Simple question! Anyone got an answer
Dubliner, you are suggesting the same as I am.
Why do people keep accepting this excuse of 'terrorists' nesting among civilians, when it is only civilian corpses that are being dug up?
--Why do people keep accepting this excuse of 'terrorists' nesting among civilians, when it is only civilian corpses that are being dug up?--
Lets be honest here. You don't have the slightest idea in the world if that is true.
The Israelis have the right to take out Hezbollah hardware anywhere it exists. And Anselm yesterday showed a photo of an AAA position in a hostile area ( Christian, where the Hezbos would not have even been welcome, but where they presumably muscled their way in ). None of the men staffing this were in uniform. Proper target? Yes.
Maura---Why do people keep accepting this excuse of 'terrorists' nesting among civilians, when it is only civilian corpses that are being dug up?--
Phanton-----Lets be honest here. You don't have the slightest idea in the world if that is true.
Phantom nor do you have the slightest idea that it is true that Hezbollah are nestled among civilians.
Phantom again I ask then: 'How many Hezbollah members died in this particular horrific attack? Simple question!
Let's apply some common sense to this. IF there were any Hezbollah casaulties, don't you think the Iaraelis would be the FIRST out the door with the figures, to justify this 'action?'
So the question stands, where are the Hezbollah casaulties?
Maura,
You make a great point that apologists don't want to touch with a fifty foot bargepole.
With regard to this point:
"And Anselm yesterday showed a photo of an AAA position in a hostile area ( Christian, where the Hezbos would not have even been welcome, but where they presumably muscled their way in )"
Note the presumption that Hezbollah muscled their way into a Christian area when the facts highlight that Israel's actions in Lebanon have led to an overwhelming increase in support for Hezbollah.
87% now support Hezbollah in its confrontation with Israel.
This isn't surprising. In Ireland, at the start of the War of Independence, most local people initially opposed the activities of the IRA. However, as they experienced and witnessed firsthand the backlash from the British forces, people rallied around the IRA.
The same thing is occurring in Lebanon.
It would be impossible for the Israelis to tell, unless it was a high profile target. If it was, say five midlevel Hezbo guys, how would they know? Though they would have been most deserving targets.
Please don't get cute with "simple questions".
If Hezbollah is not active in civilian areas and is not firing from them, then could you please advise where this hailstorm emanates from? One of the mountains of Cyprus peut etre? They have to be coming from somewhere.
"87% now support Hezbollah in its confrontation with Israel." - UI
Jack Straw also pointed that out: that Israel's action would destabilise Lebanon and lead to an increase in the level terrorist activity in the region (and not a reduction of it), blowing Israel's claim of its actions reducing the level of the threat out of the water. My own view is that increasing the level of the threat is Israel's actual motive here (for reasons stated before). Either way, Israel cannot claim that it will be safer after its terrorist campaign, when the evidence all points to the opposite. So we have terrorist murder of civilians with no moral or legal justification of it at all - terrorism in its purest form.
You will notice how the apologists contradict their parroted words with almost every second sentence: in one sentence they parrot the official line that Israel is not deliberately targeting civilians, and in the next sentence they parrot another official line that Israel has no alternative other than to target civilians because Hezbollah hides among them. Either Israel is not targeting civilians or it is: you can't have it both ways (and still claim to have any logical faculties). The apologists, being the kind of vacuous numbskulls who parrot, can't even perceive the blatant contradiction between claiming Israel isn't targeting civilians and claiming that it is targeting civilians (but only doing so because it has to).
Morons of high repute.
Phantom: 'It would be impossible for the Israelis to tell, unless it was a high profile target. If it was, say five midlevel Hezbo guys, how would they know? Though they would have been most deserving targets.
Please don't get cute with "simple questions".
If Hezbollah is not active in civilian areas and is not firing from them, then could you please advise where this hailstorm emanates from? One of the mountains of Cyprus peut etre? They have to be coming from somewhere'
Of course they are coming from somewhere, but that does not mean they are coming from where Israel says. Again I ask, and it really is a simple question that everyone seems to be avoiding. If Hezbollah are nestled in civilian areas- civilians are dying in these said areas, where are the Hezbollah casaulties. I mean this is not a difficult concept!
By stating emphatically, as the press appears to be doing, that Hezbollah are indeed nestled within civilian populations civilians are dying, Hezbollah are not- what is the logical conclusion if we are to accept that explanation?
Hezbollah are nestled within civilian populations , attacking Israel BUT when Israel strikes Hezbollah either vacate area AS the strikes are occuring OR Hezbollah are in fact dying but their corpses mysteriously disintegrate??
For the love of God.
-- their corpses mysteriously disintegrate?? --
My friend, and I hate having this clinical a discussion on something so awful, if there is a corpse of any adult male, you do not know if he was a civilian, nor do I.
I absolutely don't accept the premise that Hezbollah fighters have not been killed. And Israel is not exactly in position to go there and do an ID check.
I don't know. None of us do.
Phantom:'My friend, and I hate having this clinical a discussion on something so awful, if there is a corpse of any adult male, you do not know if he was a civilian, nor do I.
I absolutely don't accept the premise that Hezbollah fighters have not been killed. And Israel is not exactly in position to go there and do an ID check.
I don't know. None of us do.'
Yea discussing corpses is a distasteful thing isn't it, especially when it is the corpses of children. But this is the reality- surgical air strikes, collateral damge, etc all means there are corpses, and usually mean women and children.
The problem for me Phantom is the ease at which people such as yourself accept the word of governments such as Israel and the United States. Look to the WMDs- for example, we have Rumsfeld saying 'we know where they are' - to me this would suggest they knew where the weapons were. So where are they?
If I say to you, 'hey Phantom, I know where your shoes are,' I have you under constant surveillance so that you can't move the shoes thenI go to your house, and search and search but do not come up with your shoes- then I am a liar!
I prefer to take the word of oppressive governments with a grain of salt, a healthy cynicism if you will.
Innocent people are and have been slaughtered by Israel, and no amount of excuses can change that.
I apologise if my simplistic manner of looking at things is not to your tatse, I just find it to be an honest approach.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com...milking-
it.html
I can't even find the words......
"My friend, and I hate having this clinical a discussion on something so awful, if there is a corpse of any adult male, you do not know if he was a civilian, nor do I." - The Phantom
Be honest here: are you in some secret Internet competition to see which drooling retard can post the dumbest thing ever on a message board? If you are, I'll wager that you're way out there in the lead.
There is a little concept of justice called "innocent until proven guilty." In practice, that means that civilised people don't support the random murder of civilians on the basis that one of them might be a terrorist, a child molester, a rapist or even a dumb Yank. Not a bad concept, is it?
maura
We approach this entire subject with different preconceptions that must be recogized.
I'll leave out the unintentional comedy of "The Dubliner". This is serious.
Big picture, I see what has happened in recent weeks as Israel launching a necessary and long overdue defense of its people and its territory after a series of grave provocations. You see Israel acting violently out of all proportion to relatively minor provocations.
I see the deaths of civilians as an unintentional and awful side effect of war and of an enemy in Hezbollah that has very carefully tried to blur the line between civilian and military, a strategy that makes civilian deaths ineveitable. You see, I think the intentional targeting of civilians or a wild and reckless attack plan that maximizes civilian casualties.
I see an Israel that I support emotionally and intellectually, a tiny and beleaguered Jewish state that desperately wants to live in peace, but which has never been allowed to. You see an oppressive government that is the root cause of the Middle East's problems.
I detest the idea of civilians being killed in a war. But they will continue to be killed in Lebanon so long as Hezbollah intersperses their rockets and other weapons in Lebanese towns and cities.
Did Rumsfeld say "we know where they are" or did he say "We know that he has them and we will find them", which I think is the case. Don't get me started on that one by the way--a subject for another day.
We do know that Hezbollah has had very large numbers of rockets because they have continued to fly southward over the border. Israel is using its best intelligence to hit the sources of those weapons, while minimizing, to the best of their ability, the number of civilian deaths. And they simply must continue to do this.
A return to the state of a month ago is as unacceptable as would be an endless war, and its endless casualties.
I support a ceasefire but only if there is an immediate and verifiable removal of Hezbollah from the border areas. There should be a demilitarized zone. And there should be rapid aid given to Lebanon so that that country can begin to live normally again.
Simply put, I agree with Maura on this one. There is no justification for the slaughter of the innocents.
Comment moderation? Why?
"How dare those people try to protect themselves from Israeli attacks! They should simply stand about and let themselves be blown to kingdom come, isn't that right anselm." - UI
One should also make the rather obvious point that if Hezbollah and Israel are legitimately deemed to be "at war" with each other, then both sides are bound by the conventions and laws of war, and Hezbollah is no longer deemed to be a "terrorist" group under international war. Ergo, if Israel wishes to excuse its terrorist campaign against Lebanonese civilians by calling it war, then it cannot claim that the other side to the "war" is a terrorist group and not a legitimate army. Thems the breaks!
Just as the Nazis decreed that a dozen French citizens should be killed for every German solider killed by the French resistance, the Jews have adopted the Nazi tactic of killing X-number of Lebanese citizens for every Jew killed by Hezbollah. The Nazis, of course, adopted the tactic as a form of aggressive deterrence - what might be seen by some as a form of "self-defence." At any rate, the Israelis have adopted the same tactic and seemingly incorporated it into their national security policy. The Nazis, at least, deployed in on an ad hoc basis. The problem with that tactic is that it is also deemed to be a war crime. So, if Israel wishes to claim that it is at war and not simply inflicting state terrorism on its neighbours (and the international community wishes to accept that claim as valid), then its leaders must be put on trial for war crimes when the "war" is over (just as the Nazis were put on trial for the same tactic). Failure to do so will render the Hague/Geneva conventions worthless.
Likewise, if Israel can attempt to justify the murder of civilians in Lebanon on the basis that murdering civilians is warranted if at least one Hezbollah member is killed for every fifty civilians murdered, then Hezbollah can apply the same standard and justify firing rockets into civilian areas of Israel on the basis that at least one Israeli solider will be killed for every fifty Israeli civilians killed in the attacks. Since both are "at war," and both are thereby deemed to be legitimate armies, both atrocities are morally and legally equal. The slight drawback for Israel is that it can no longer squeal "terrorism" and expect sympathy when it is guilty of the same action. But, at least, if a war is sanctioned, then both Hezbollah and Israel can be tried for the war crimes they've both guilty of.
It’s not going to happen, of course, because the Jewish voters in America would never tolerate the spectacle of Jews being put on trial for war crimes, like Nazis, for the war crimes that they are transparently guilty of – if “war” is sanctioned. Until then, it’s state terrorism which America will call “war” in-order to avoid the correct label (and its support for state terrorism); but will no longer call war when it is over and its time for those war crime tri
"Comment moderation? Why?"
Read the latest post.
'It’s not going to happen, of course, because the Jewish voters in America would never tolerate the spectacle of Jews being put on trial for war crimes, like Nazis, for the war crimes that they are transparently guilty of – if “war” is sanctioned. Until then, it’s state terrorism which America will call “war” in-order to avoid the correct label (and its support for state terrorism); but will no longer call war when it is over and its time for those war crime tri'
Well said Dubliner. and this brings me back to asking where Phantom gets his news. US Propoganda!
As with everything, there is always a bigger picture -US electoral ambitions being part of that picture.
You must have missed my other missives.
I watch BBC News every day. I watch RTE many days over the internet. I read the Guardian. I look at French papers. I probably look at more original European news sources than you do.
So please spare me the victim of US propaganda line. The Phantom knows.
When the Palestinians elect a Government the West disapproves of it cuts off all aid to them; humiliating them and starving them. But it's ok for the IDF to murder children in their sleep.
The EU needs to wake up and scrap their trade agreements with Israel, despite that country's lunacy and cruelty money still talks and a trade ban would hurt big time...
Here is more reality to feed the terrorist trolls that percolate Hezbollah propaganda on this site..
http://tinyurl.com/nvswr
"Is Hizbullah behind the tragic incident in the village of Qana that claimed the lives of some 60 people? While the Israeli army continues to investigate the circumstances leading to the building's collapse, some in Lebanon do not hesitate to point the finger at the Shiite organization and claim it is to blame for the death of dozens.
The Lebanese website LIBANOSCOPIE, associated with Christian elements in the country and which openly supports the anti-Syrian movement called the "March 14 Forces," reported that Hizbullah has masterminded a plan that would result in the killing of innocents in the Qana village, in a bid to foil Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora's "Seven Points Plan", which calls for deployment of the Lebanese army in southern Lebanon and the disarming of Hizbullah.
'Disabled children placed inside building'
"We have it from a credible source that Hizbullah, alarmed by Siniora's plan, has concocted an incident that would help thwart the negotiations. Knowing full well that Israel will not hesitate to bombard civilian targets, Hizbullah gunmen placed a rocket launcher on the roof in Qana and brought disabled children inside, in a bid to provoke a response by the Israeli Air Force. In this way, they were planning to take advantage of the death of innocents and curtail the negotiation initiative," the site stated.
The site's editors also claimed that not only did Hizbullah stage the event, but that it also chose Qana for a specific reason: "They used Qana because the village had already turned into a symbol for massacring innocent civilians, and so they set up 'Qana 2'." Notably, the incident has indeed been dubbed "The second Qana massacre" by the Arab media."
Could it be possible that a terrorists organization, supported by Syria and Iran, would ever think of slaughtering its own citizens? If you are a modern European liberal, the answer is always no way.
JG whined:
"When the Palestinians elect a Government the West disapproves of it cuts off all aid to them; humiliating them and starving them. But it's ok for the IDF to murder children in their sleep."
Sniff. Don't you think its time the Palestinian welfare bums got off their hater asses and helped build a nation, preferably in Jordan where they belong?
Double sniff. The religion of submission strikes again. Once again, the target is Thailand.
http://tinyurl.com/m72qk
BANGKOK, Thailand - Assailants carried out at least 40 bomb and arson attacks Tuesday night in Thailand's three Muslim-dominated southernmost provinces, police said. At least three people were reported hurt.
The attacks are the latest in a series believed to have been carried out by Muslim separatists, regional deputy police chief Maj. Woraphong Siewpricha said. Thai media said government installations were the targets.
--When the Palestinians elect a Government the West disapproves of it cuts off all aid to them--
So when the Palestinians elected a mob of suicide bombers, we should have said "mazel tov", just blow yourself up someplace else if you would, sir?
jews are the holy seed. what's wrong with that?
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