I don't understand why you hate the EU so much - you think the EU has been bad for Ireland? How has the EU been bad for Irish Democracy? When has the EU sought to interfere with Irish affairs?
You talk about the EU like it is a modern day Nazi government - re. your image on this post.
I think most people voted no to this because the government didn't ever spell out what was involved. Not because of some idea that the EU will destroy irish democracy.
Alot of people still voted yes in spite of what they heard from the no side - I think the EU will push for another vote with an ammended treaty - the governmaent will address the concerns of the confused and it will go through.
The EU has been nothing short of a miracle for Ireland - we've trusted them this far and its worked out - we can also exit at any time. I think we can afford to give it the benefit of the doubt.
John,
Look back at their behaviour in recent days and you'll see why I hate the EU so much.
"How has the EU been bad for Irish Democracy?"
How about the fact they won't listen to Irish democracy?
I feel you are also being quite condescending when you talk about the government addressing "the concerns of the confused". There is no confusion from my end John, as everything I said about these guys on this site over the past few years has been proven correct in the last few days. They have shown complete contempt towards the will of the Irish people.
As for being a modern day Nazi government, well their attitudes towards democracy aren't a million miles apart are they? Although, maybe a Zimbabwean comparison would be more appropriate. If one compares Mugabe's attitude to the election result he didn't want, and compares it to the EU's reaction to the result they didn't want, I don't see much of a difference do you? The EU simply uses more sophisticated means of bullying than Mugabe and his gangs. They get less bad press that way.
You're not in favour of Lisbon yet you don't want a 2 speed Europe either? You want to hold back countries (mostly the 6 founding members) that want to push ahead because of a peripheral country on the Western fringe of 3 million voters?
What *do* you want instead of Lisbon?
We need them a lot more than they need us, I hope you'll agree. What's your economics knowledge like? Refer to Ireland of the 50s and 60s to see what happens to a small, closed economy instead of a small, open one.
Georgie, the Irish result is not about holding back other countries; it is about holding back governments with their ill-conceived plans that have no democratic mandate. How can you profess to know the will of the six founding members, when none of them have been allowed a public plebiscite? In fact, two of those founder members delivered the same verdict as Ireland when they were asked about the Lisbon Treaty's previous incarnation. It is for precisely this reason that they were not asked again.
It is for the same reason that, in my view, Ireland will not be asked again either. A repeat referendum is too risky a strategy for the "colleagues" - one which could backfire spectacularly. The EU will instead come up with a revised strategy; one that will be well-insulated from the ballot box. I can foresee the Croatian Accession Treaty being used to shoehorn some of the provisions of Lisbon into Irish law.
As an outsider, I can't see the justification for the statement that Ireland needs the EU more than the EU needs Ireland. Has Ireland not become a net contributor to the EU's budget? If not now, then it must be imminent given the EU's expansion Eastwards, and the necessary diversion of the largesse that follows.
The way I see it, Ireland's current economic success is largely due to a flexible labour force and a low level of taxation that stimulates growth and attracts inward investment (from many American, rather than European companies). These economic instincts run contrary to those of the EU's political class.
The people of Europe have not been frustrated by Ireland's petulant display of direct democracy. Many of us are cheering from the sidelines, even if I am an evil Brit.
Ireland's 'No' is not the problem here. The EU's refusal to take it on board is.
Like you UI, I would prefer the status-quo and to leave it at that. But the elites are obsessed with creating a Federal European Superstate and they will do their best to ride a coach and horses through democracy in order to get it. It is appalling that our government and those of France and Holland thought so little of the democratic rights of their citizens that they decided to ignore the referendum rejections of the EU Constitutions and came back with a Treaty Bertie and most EU leaders admit is 95% the same as the EU Constitution. That the French govt did this brings back echoes of 1940, when the French parliament voted to hand all its powers to the unelected bureaucrats of the Vichy Regime. Let's hope history doesn't repeat itself.
UI,
Your opposition to Lisbon has been consistent and is fair comment but the EU=Nazi flag (along with another commentator's reference to Vichy France) is a bit silly.
They're like something that would be said by the more extreme right-wing elements on ATW and do you know favours.
They do you "no" favours as well!
Georgie,
"You're not in favour of Lisbon yet you don't want a 2 speed Europe either? You want to hold back countries (mostly the 6 founding members) that want to push ahead because of a peripheral country on the Western fringe of 3 million voters?"
Peripheral country? What is with this inferiority complex that so many Yes supporters seem to have? You realise that the Lisbon Treaty requires unanimous support don't you? I want the EU to live up to their promises. As David says, the problem here is the EU's refusal to take on board our opinions.
Reg,
The choice of image was mainly born out of frustration at the EU's attitude towards Ireland, but I take your point on board and will refrain from using it in future.
I thought Georgie was banned.
Does anybody on the YES side (or anybody at all for that matter) have any problem with the following:
Step 1.
Re-publish the Treaty in such a way that humans can comprehend it.
Step 2.
Have a referendum throughout the enitre EU on the same day.
Step 3.
Respect the outcome of said referendum.
Any problems with that? If so, what?
"How has the EU been bad for Irish Democracy?
How about the fact they won't listen to Irish democracy?"
I'm assuming you're refering to the Nice treaty here primarily... I don't buy this - It was Bertie and FF who pushed through the second vote - they could have just as easily told the EU to feck off.
I think alot of your grivences really rest with the Irish Government - the EU doesn't force any government to do anything - they just say, if you want to be get these benefits of EU membership, you have to comply with A, B and C.
All of the members are free to leave at anytime.
I have difficultly understanding why some folks really have it in for the EU - yes, it has huge problems, too many to go into here... but it has done some great things for Ireland and for Europe. And at the end of the day, its intentions are worthwhile. Its a work in progress and so makes lots of mistakes. The No vote should serve as a wake up call in this respect.
I can see how you thought my comment on the 'confused masses' was condesending - this wasn't my intention - what I meant to put across was that most people didn't really have a clue how the treaty was going to effect them - so voted no as a 'just in case' measure - not that I blame them... Both the government and EU are at fault for this.
I would like to know what your prefered outcome here is? Should we leave the EU? Should we try to keep everything as it is? As far as I can see, neither is really an option for Ireland.
JG - I'm in the pro-EU camp, and I certainly wouldn't have a problem with your suggestion. Especially your Step 1.!
I think the EU wrongly assumed Ireland would vote it in because of our past track record - maybe that's way they never bothered to actually write out a document that made any sense. This is a major failing of the EU.
However, after Ireland's result, they will probably never make the same mistake again.
I have no doubt at all, that if there was an EU wide vote on lisbon tomorrow, it would be a complete, Non, Nein, Nay, NO! for the same reasons it was rejected in Ireland.
whats the odds in paddy power for a re-run of the lisbon treaty referendum??
United Irelander,
As an observer from Britain, I would just like to ask how you would vote if the EU went for the nuclear option in a second referendum in Ireland. That is, if the question said:
"On the basis of the Lisbon Treaty, do you wish to remain a member of the European Union?"
How would you vote?
John
I wasn't mainly talking about Nice when I spoke about the EU not listening to our democracy, but rather how they have behaved following the Lisbon Treaty rejection and their efforts to get around the result.
"I would like to know what your prefered outcome here is? Should we leave the EU? Should we try to keep everything as it is? As far as I can see, neither is really an option for Ireland."
My preferred outcome is for the Lisbon Treaty to be declared dead and for the EU to go back to the drawing board.
UK Observer
"As an observer from Britain, I would just like to ask how you would vote if the EU went for the nuclear option in a second referendum in Ireland. That is, if the question said:
"On the basis of the Lisbon Treaty, do you wish to remain a member of the European Union?"
How would you vote?"
If the EU was to go down that road and effectively put a gun to Irish voter's heads, then I personally would have to vote No. I would not want to be part of a union that would toy with democracy in such a manner.
"I would not want to be part of a union that would toy with democracy in such a manner."
Quite. The EU is an autocracy which has little to do with democracy.
"On the basis of the Lisbon Treaty, do you wish to remain a member of the European Union?"
How would you vote?
I wish they would say that because we'd be out of the EU by a huge majority.
Those who wish to make a pro-EU case have to do better than delusional tripe such as Georgie in post no3 wherein he strangely assumes that it wouldn't have occured to Irish business to export goods if joining the EU in 1973 didn't make them aware that other countries existed.
This is interesting, I tried to get it in your most recent comments but cannot so I hope you will return to read this Regards, JB:German court considers impact of Ireland's vote
ANALYSIS: German judges are asked if the Lisbon Treaty is compatible with democracy, writes Derek Scally.
IRELAND'S REJECTION of the Lisbon Treaty has left German ratification hanging in the balance at the constitutional court in Karlsruhe.
Last month, Bavarian MP Peter Gauweiler lodged a constitutional challenge to the German ratification bill at the end of Berlin's parliamentary ratification process.
Three years ago, he lodged a similar challenge to the constitutional treaty and, when the French and Dutch voted No, the court decided there was nothing left to rule on.
In October 2006, four months after the Dutch vote, the presiding judge wrote that, with negotiations under way for what would eventually become the Lisbon Treaty, the court "presently saw no priority for a decision".
Legal opinion in Germany is divided over how the constitutional court will react to the Irish vote.
One camp predicts that, in contrast to 2005, the judges in Karlsruhe will be anxious to have their say on the Lisbon Treaty as their contribution to the post-referendum debate.
Experienced court watchers suggest that it is unlikely Mr Gauweiler will succeed, although a ruling against his application could include a request for extra measures in the ratification bill to ensure the preservation of democracy and to secure the role of the Bundestag in Berlin.
That would be a simple matter to fix and would not disturb the treaty itself.
Mr Gauweiler's camp suggest that the judges will take a similar view now as in 2005, meaning a verdict on whether German ratification of the treaty can proceed is unlikely anytime soon.
"The judges are no longer under political pressure from Berlin but can decide at leisure if my claims are justified," said Dr Gauweiler.
His application of several hundred pages argues the Lisbon Treaty is "incompatible" with German democratic principles.
A spokesman for chancellor Angela Merkel in Berlin declined to discuss the timeframe for a ruling on the challenge, citing the state separation of powers.
Dr Gauweiler and his co-complainant, Prof Dietrich Murswiek, are optimistic of a ruling in their favour - or at least a stringent legal interpretation of the unanimity principle of Lisbon Treaty ratification - preventing the German president from signing the bill into law.
"As judges and not politicians, they only have to deal with the legal points of our complaint and not the given political circumstances," said Prof Murswiek, professor of law at the Albert Ludwigs University of Freiburg.
Thanks for that Jocelyn. Most interesting. I wasn't aware of that.
I assume Dave the Dubliner realises that the EU is a common market and there's no import tariffs, if we didn't join our goods would be more expensive in EU countries and US multinationals wouldn't have set up here.
Choice graphics, dirty pool though I must say...
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