Tell me what you really think.
I've thought about that kind of thing a lot myself, since I changed careers from the entertainment industry to teaching mid-life. Because I am a role-model, there are many things I wouldn't have thought twice about doing before (ie. something as simple as wearing a really low-cut blouse when doing errands) that I won't do now, because I know kids are looking at me wherever I go. This is a tough one. Of course this woman is a poor role model. But, from a legal standpoint--she can't really be fired. Scary.
Perhaps my comment is redundant simply because (gee, what a surprise!) I agree with you on this one. It reminds me of the married teacher who was caught in the midst of a huge sex scandal in her community (they were swingers who had an orgy nightclub in their basement and made videos of events). She said what she does in her own home has nothing to do with how she teaches, but I do think it has a lot to do with how she's perceived and how much respect she's going to get from students. I realize that people have differing ideas of lifestyle propriety, etc., but there comes a time when you realize you are a ROLE MODEL. I've heard athletes often say, "I didn't ask to be a role model: I just want to do my job!" This doesn't fly for me when you are in the public eye at all and in any "role model" capacity. You know what you are stepping into when you take up that position: If you can't handle the responsibility of being seen and emulated by impressionable people, then you shouldn't do the job.
(I'm not an old fogy, so I don't think it has anything to do with that. I'm under 30 by a few years yet, and I still think you are "just a person who wants positive role models for our children." Heck, they don't get true role model status from their favorite actors, musicians, or random rich people who are in the public eye for no reason, so I think the people they see regularly in person SHOULD be REAL role models. Lack of role models in the national/international public eye should lend to the fact that parents, teachers, and other adults in their lives need to step up.)
You hit the bullseye. If someone wants a job shaping the lives of young people, they ought to be held to a standard appropriate to that trust.
But you would agree that there is a difference between the behavior of an adult and children? Adults can drink, children cannot. An employed adult who is having a baby is different than that of a student who is going to live with mom.
I think you can't deptrive a single mother-to-be of the right to support her child. That would be cruel, in my opinion.
As for being a role model, our beloved choir teacher used hang out at bars on the weekend. I saw him drunk once. It didn't make me hang out in bars. He still was a wonderful influence in my life.
I don't know I guess it depends on the situation. 30+ woman having been in the same relationship say oh seven years and gets pregnant, not a big deal. A 22 year old that gets pregnant by some random person not the best person to be teaching high school. I also, think that the older the person is the easier it is for them to shield their personal lives from the students.
Hey again. Coming back to say that I continued thinking about your question as I made French Toast. I want you to know I think it's a valid question.
My choir director was an oldish man. We lived in a small town in Minnesota, where there was a lot of drinking. He was wonderful.....but a character.
And I guess my point was that it would take a lot of color out of life if we policed our teachers for what they do outside of the classroom, as long as what they are doing is legal. Where do you draw the line? Is it a good role model to have a teacher that has been divorced? Some would say no, I'm sure. What if we found out a teacher had an abortion? It just seems like you are getting into murky waters when you hire people on moral questions.
On the other hand, I might feel uncomfortable if my girls had a teacher that was pregnant without a father. But probably not. Some of the best, most wonderful families I know have parents that have chosen not to be married and they are truly role models in many other ways. You gotta look at the whole picture.
But very interesting question.
WOW, but this is a hard question. My instinct is to say that it doesn't matter, so long as her behavior and conduct in the classroom is acceptable. There should be a clear distinction between professional and personal lives. Does it matter, or rather, SHOULD it matter, that she's an unwed mother? Does that affect her ability to do her job?
On the other hand, I think that your points are valid, and it's not so easy for me to just brush your question off. I'm going to think about it for a bit (and forward your link to my colleague, who teaches a kick-ass ethics class) and get back to you...
love!
Chili
YOU? ".....I am a judgmental hardnosed hateful old fogie...."
Give me a small break! You are right about this as you are most everything else. It is a shame if a good teacher gets herself into that kind of situation - but she should be made to leave teaching immediately.
Let me get this straight, are you saying you work at a school where the kids actually recognize the fact that she is pregnant AND unmarried?
I ask because one of my teammates is pregnant (and happily married), and the kids are constantly asking her if there is a father, or if she is married, or (and I love this one) if I am the father.
So many of them come from one-parent families that that's just normal to them. And that's a little bit sad.
I am 58, have taught for over 30 years, and I have never seen so many pregnant girls in one year as we have in our school right now. The saddest is the 14 year old freshman. It burns me when the girls have their babies, then visit the school, with three-week-old babies, and get all the oohs and ahs, and attention. Middle schoolers are going to parties, going to rooms, all lights off, and then sex with whomever comes into the room. Of course, lots of alcohol and drugs. We are just a small rural high school- what is going on in this world? I try not to be an old fuddy duddy but I shocked myself and my kids one day. We were talking about what we were seeing all around, how it has been a negative factor in our school, and I told them that a person could live a great life without using drugs, alcohol, sleeping around- that my husband and I had been married 35 years and it was a good thing. One of the 9th grade boys spoke up and said, so when did you start having sex-Yeah, I would have never expected something like that years ago- but I just looked at him and said, It's not really your business, but it was on my wedding night. Their mouths dropped- these kids have so many steps, halfs, shackups in their lives, they couldn't even imagine a life with one person.
The argument of to be a role model or not seems to fall along liberal, conservative lines at my school. Me, I am old school- we should be shining lights, in our communities, of rectitude, common sense, and high expectations of ourselves and others.
I'm sorry, but I cannot agree. As raehan says, removing this woman from her position would put her in a position of possibly not being able to support her child.
Speaking as one of your former students, I know there were teachers in our district - heck, in our building - who were doing wildly inappropriate things. I daresay that none of us were affected because of it.
Now the second it affected what happened in the classroom, that's a different story, but I'm sure that (as an example) while many of us were aware something hinky was going on 'twixt a married male junior-high teacher and a married female elementary teacher, it didn't really change how we operated in class.
But back to the first point - is forcing someone out of livelihood and polite society the way to go here? If the person can handle everything, it looks like a great object lesson in personal responsibility - she got pregnant, she didn't abort (and let's kindly not open THAT particular can of worms right now, as I know we disagree on that subject as well), she raised the baby and did it without going on the dole.
WF
I did everything my beloved favorite teacher did. When her boyfriend got her pregnant, I let mine do me, too.
I hate it now that I let her example turn me into a whore, too. How could I have been so dumb? Oh yeah, I was fourteen. That's how. And I thought she was really cool, and we all imitated her clothes and her earrings and her expressions and everything. We thought she was everything we wanted to be.
Now I know she wasn't. She was just a person with low standards.
Hey Linda, I been there too. Soph science teacher Ms. Espinosa, she was so cool and stylish, we wanted to be just like her. She lived shackup with her BF, he had no job or nothing but he was hot, his pic was all over her room. She went preggers and told us that she took responsibility and we thought, COOL, and four kids in her class did the same. I told mom and she said not to listen to Espinosa about anything but science but there she was all preggers in front of us and we couldn't look at nothing but that stomach. Funny too that she taught biology! I guess she didjn't pay attention to her own biology, huh. Kind of made us wonder if anything she told us was true, even the science.
greetings! If I read blogs, I'd read yours. Much to say on this topic, as 32 years in education will tend to do that.
Michele sent me, postage and all.
I believe that our young people deserve to have good role models in school. So many of them these days have nothing to look up to at home, and if we employ those same people in our schools, our kids will have nobody at all who represents anything wholesome. Illegitimate birth rates are higher every year, and maybe one reason for that is the lack of reputable role models in our schools. We can't regulate parents who bedhop but I think we should be able to ask that a paid role model watch their step. If someone doesn't have any personal integrity, I don't want that person influencing my children in any way. I certainly don't want to pay them for it.
Here from Stacy's Myspace where this topic is going nuts, just wanted to say, from a guy's point of view, seeing a hot chick like our history teacher let her bf pound her and knock her up told us guys that if we just kept at it, we'd get some too. Most of the time it worked. In high school, we were really stupid, and I remembering believing it, that if hot teacher was giving it away, then our gf should too. Now I'm 22 and got a kid in first grade. I hate my life.
Even though I owe you for BlogHer, I disagree, for the most part. Jane- the thing is, it would be a lovely world if all the grown ups behaved themselves and set good and healthy examples for attentive youth- and that's still something to strive for- but it's not happening. All the research shows that today's youth is not looking to adults as mentors in any case (how sad its that? It all changed with technology in the 80s- your students now know far more than you do about the technology that provides over 75% of their knowledge base) and I'm not convinced, your outrage aside, that this woman is a walking billboard for "throw your legs up for your boyfriend, don't use protection and who cares about marriage anyway?" I agree with Wes and Raehan- she definitely doesn't lose her status as a teacher because she is an unmarried pregnant woman- and I'm not sure she loses her credibility as a teacher. She could end up being a really good teacher.
As a final note- I was a single mother of two most all of the years I was a child and family therapist. I did not advocate that as the optimal situation for families and in fact, I frequently said that my situation had caused additional stresses and strains for my children. But I think most all of the people I saw still respected my professional skills, my knowledge of what does and what doesn't work in relationships and my devotion to my children.
So- that's what I think, dear friend.
Mamacita,
For the Christian we follow the Scriptures which tell us "Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment" (James 3:1, NASB).
For me, that pretty much sums it up... nothing prudish or old fashioned; except some post-moderns would say the Scriptures are out dated, and primarily laws from dead men.
For me and my friends, a pregnant married teacher represented the beginning of a family, and a pregnant single teacher represented everything that can go wrong when you give it away for free. Still does.
And ma'am up there, we're talking about teachers not careers where you don't stand as an example to young people. Older people can understand more.
Stable, ethical adults monitor their own behavior because they know that impressionable kids are watching their every move. Adults who don't have what it takes should not be in a position of authority over young people.
Wow. Well...how shall I answer this, I'm not that old. But I'm not that young either (in the ways of the world). If I were a student in the classroom, I would be worried about the message she was sending. If I were a fellow teacher, I would be concerned with the message as well. However, as we live in a town with one of the highest pregnancy rates in Indiana (give us something to do, please...); I don't think it would make much of a difference in this community. Now, in a community with straight-edged good kids who look up to their teachers and don't just ignore their lives-that might be a problem.
In case any of you read this, I was getting ready to start my senior year of High School when I found out I was pregnant. Nothing influenced my decisions. It was all my responsibility and my fault that I put myself in that situation. I, however, acted like an adult and accepted that and got married just two days after the beginning of my senior year. But before all of that, I had to make a decision. I was a role model in the Junior church, on praise band, and I was also a role model in the Marching Band, in the color guard. I was given the choice to stay in guard, but I felt that the example I was setting wouldn't be a very good one. So, I made the decision to step out of guard to be responsible (you can't be a good example for freshman when you're pregnant and a senior) and I was told by someone I consider to be a role model to me that it was a good decision, and she was proud of me for quitting-because she knew it was because of the role model standard I had to uphold.
It's not good to do the things I did but I took responsibility, and told kids to wait. Because, I told them, that they have a future to think about. And I didn't want them to put theirs on hold like I was doing mine. I told them I wanted them to go on and surpass all their dreams before they made the choice to have unsafe sex.
As for church, I just felt that not only leaving the praise band, but also leaving the church would be appropriate. I didn't want those girls looking at me and thinking it was alright to go against all the morals that they uphold.
Plus, it's hard to decide where to fit in-you're married, a teenager, still in high school, and yet, pregnant. Where do you fit in during sunday school?
Back to Mamacita's question. It does send a negative message that a single teacher would be unmarried and knocked-up. If I were a teacher, I probably would make sure to take more responsibility to ensure that something such as that wouldn't happen, I would always have the children in the back of my mind.
I don't think it's appropriate at all.
I would have to argue that this woman has chosen to remove herself from what might have been a stable livelihood had she been able to keep her hormones under control, and that getting yourself knocked up is hardly a characteristic of "polite society."
Well, I am that teacher. I have been teaching in my district for 14 years now. I had been there 3 when I got pregnant. I was 37 years old. Now the truth is I was not intending to get pregnant with my longterm boyfriend, but for medical reasons I had to get off the pill and condoms break. I was not being irresponsible when I got pregnant - and of course I knew that every act of intercourse is a risk. I was not being irresponsible when I decided to not have an abortion. I was not being irresponsbile when I decided to keep my job and support my son.
But consider this: In this day and age who could know how I got pregnant? Who could know I was "throwing up my legs for my boyfriend"? Perhaps it was artificial insemination from a sperm bank. Perhaps I love kids and wanted to be a mom, but not get married because I hadn't found the right person yet. Perhaps I am a lesbian, in a relationship or not. I did not talk about my relationship with my students and I did not go around town hanging on him (in fact he lieved in another state) or dating men randomly. My students know that now I have a fiance. Well some do, some are shocked to find out- hahaha. I mention him, but not as much as I mention my son.
I think you don't give kids enough credit. I think they are smart enough to know the difference between a teenager with no job and a grown woman with a career, especially when it comes to child rearing capabilities. I don't think you can judge me, or others, by your preconceived notion. I'm not being defensive here, just pointing out that I have personal experience.I have lived through it and I think I am a repected teacher. I have had former studetns come to me and tell me I have made a difference in their lives. I had one of my best and brightest come to me with these words (when she was in college). "Because of you I want to be a teacher. Before I had you I probably read one book all the way through. You made me love reading. Before I had you I thought of the teacher as the old woman in the front of the class that says turn your books to page 34. You made me see that you could be a smart, funny, attractive and sexy woman and still be a good teacher."
I find it laughable to think that a student would go out and get pregnant because I did. What about all the other years when they saw no unmarried pregnant teachers and we still had girls get pregnant?
I am a good role model. I never go to the bars in town, I dress professionally for work, even when most teachers are wearing jeans and knit tops (or clothes so outdated no middle school kid will take them seriously), I am devoted to my child and involved in many activities. I attend church - the same church that gave me a baby shower. I work hard and I am there for my students. I don't keep peanut butter in my room, but they know to come to me for school supplies when they run out. I will help where I can- they know this. I bought shoes for a girl after our first cold snap.
I agree with you on most things, but not this. I think just the fact of being pregnant is not enough to condemn someone. Now, if she was drunk, fornicating on the sidewalk in front of a bar on main street (it could happen in our town)and people actually saw her get pregnant that way and she continued to drink and smoke during the pregancy then you have something to be upset about.
Most people will have sex in their lives- in or out of marriage, whether you agree with it morally or not. I don't think knowing that someone is pregnant encourages or discourages it- in this time in our society. I would be far more worried about the drinking irresponsibly, or smoking, or a number of other things.I worry more that young girls thik it okay to stay in a relationship where they are abused, or they think they can't be a doctor because ... well whatever, I think you get my point.
Faith is my new heroine!
Anonymous, though I disagree with Mamacita on this point, I suspect she would have little tolerance for those who don't sign a name to their views.
WF
Honestly, I think teachers are people and will make the same decisions and mistakes as everyone else; it's the parents that need to be setting the examples and giving their kids the foundations that will allow them to make their own decisions.
There are some things teachers have incredible influence over, but to be held up to a higher standard...I'm not so sure. We already expect so much of schools that we shouldn't, and I think raising the bar for teachers simply because they ARE teachers is unfair.
Kids might snicker behind her back, they'll likely be grossed out by the proof that their teacher is DOING THAT, but I doubt they'll see it as an example of something spiffy to do.
As long as they're not doing a student (and we even react to that differently than we did 25 years ago; now they go to jail, when I was in HS and the German teacher knocked up a student, he married her and that was the end of it) and they don't discuss their personal lives with the kids, I think it's their own business.
I know that my business teacher is pregnant and I know that she's not married. There's really not much advice she can ever give me that I'll be able to take seriously, other than "Don't be like me."
I consider myself a good role model but am not perfect, nor am I these children's parents. They are the ones who should be molding and shaping their kids' morals and values--not me. I'm a person doing a job(more of a vocation really); I am trying to educate the students, but definitely not take over the responsibility for all their choices in life. That is above and beyond what teachers should be expected (or required) to do. Raehan is right on, as far as I'm concerned. (gee--that expression dated me, didn't it?)
I don't see this as a question of what we think the teacher should do, it's a question of whether or not the teacher is being a good role model and the answer is that she is certainly not...nor would a male teacher be if he knocked up his girlfriend, yet he would suffer little to no scrutiny for it.
Should these teachers be more responsible? ABSOLUTELY! I would say it is the majority, not the minority, of students who are unable to discern between the cuteness of a newborn and the realities of parenthood.
Nonetheless, it is the parent's job to provide direction, guidance and morals. As teachers we should back this up as proof of the positive outcome of responsible living, but it is not our job to instill these morals.
When I was a kid, my teachers were the only people in my life who weren't sleeping around and constantly knocked up with "some guy's" baby. I've got five half-brothers and I don't think our mom even knows who their fathers are. I do know she never married any of them.
I vowed to model my life after my teachers and not my mother. She was a mess. I wanted to be educated, like my teachers, and live the kind of life educated people lived.
Times have surely changed!
My daughter's fourth grade teacher has lived with two men since school started this year. She's now pregnant, and my heart breaks every time my child asks me what's going to happen to Ms. Arnold's baby since it doesn't have a daddy. Yes, all the fourth graders know all about their teacher's circumstances and choices.
I only hope this woman's baby doesn't have the same kind of childhood my brothers and I had. I have a feeling, however, that it will.
Please, teachers, behave and control yourselves. Children are watching you, even when you don't want to acknowledge that fact. YOu might be the only stable influence a child has. It was so with me.
I usually agree completely with you hun, but this time we have a difference of opinion.
As a sort of the middle-road kind of person, I agree with everyone on this issue, to one degree or another.
Yes, teachers should hold themselves to a higher standard of living than most folks do, but most forks should hold themselves to a higher standard than most folks do. The decline of morality and proper behavior is a problem for the community to battle, not just a select, highly visible, few. We all need to work to make the world, and ourselves, better, not hoist that responsibility off on someone else. That lack of adult accountability, on the part of all adults as a whole, is what is causing the problems of today's youth.
I'm with Raehan that firing a woman because she is pregnant is really stupid, bigoted, and just asking for a lawsuit whether she is married or not. The best possible way to ensure a welfare society flourishes is to add people to the dole who would rather be doing something to better their lives. If this teacher is kind, polite, professional in the classroom, and teaches the kids, that's all she needs to be/do.
I am a children's entertainer, and I feel I have to live by a higher code of ethics than Joe Average. I have to be better than average, because I've seen what average means these days, not because I owe it to the kids who look up to me. Joe Average is an uncaring, foul-mouthed, white trash piece of worthless human flotsam. I present my public face as calm, polite, friendly, and fun, not because of any sort of high moral ground I keep, but because that's how I like to be seen for the most part, and because it's good for business.
On the other hand, I graduated at 16, got married at 17, had my first child at 18, kicked out my husband right after the baby was born (he was abusive), finalized the divorce 4 months later, and despite doing it all 'the right way' AND being a role model to all young women in abusive relationships, I still had to deal with closed-minded bigots looking down on me as if I were some sort of worthless, unmarried, teenage, welfare scuzz.
Now, I am the female head of household for a blended family. My mate brought his own child into our relationship, and now we are four. Are we legally married? No, and we never will get that piece of paper from the government. Do we live as a family, is our union recognized by our hearts and our deity, and do we raise our children right, and teach them honor, values, and respect? Absolutely. I don't brag about not being legally married, but I certainly don't hide the fact from anyone that I am one of many who doesn't think the tax breaks are worth letting 'Uncle Sam' stick his nose in my personal life either. If I got pregnant by my life partner, I still wouldn't get that stupid piece of paper.
As long as I'm a good children's entertainer and don't curse or behave badly around the children, it matters not if I spend two days a year mostly-drunk in a hotel selling a powdered vitamin-enriched candy that people lovingly call "crack", or that I am not legally bound to my life partner. I'm still a great entertainer, and that's what matters most to the parents, and the kids.
I feel the same way for this woman you speak of. As long as she is doing her job properly, her personal life is her own. As an adult, unless she brags at work about what she does on her own time, and all of her activities are legal, there's no reason for anyone else to have anything to say about it either.
I am uncomfortable with all of the aspects of public education. I refuse to let my children be influenced by all of the lewd and inappropriate things they would learn from their fellow students the same as I protect them from the hootchie-cootchi dancing preteens on the Disney channel. Being able to have some control over the thousands of 'bad' messages they would inexorably get in an institutional setting is just one of the many reasons I homeschool. I prefer my kids to associate with people who are comfortable with who they are instead of the undeveloped, one-sided pseudo-people you commonly find in public schools (both adults and kids).
I really think the world would be a better place if people paid attention to their own behaviors instead of looking to judge others based on their own morals and religions. There sure would be less death, that's for sure (Jihad, abortion clinic bombings, the Haulocaust, 9-11, 'God Hates Fags', witch burnings, etc.). I'm sure you get the point.
I still love ya though. :D
When did promiscuity become an accepted value? Just because people are "doing it" doesn't mean it's a good thing.
I teach my daughters to respect their bodies and to respect others and to obey the law and that self-control is a good thing, and that sex is for adults who prove they're ready for it by committing legally. And then they go to school and standing before them is a pregnant-out-of-wedlock young woman who tells them that sex is part of life and is to be enjoyed by anyone and everyone no matter what, and she loves the life she chose and recommends it to them all.
My girls come home and ask me who is right, their teacher or their mother? Their teacher is young and pretty and stylish, and their mother is 40!
Can decent families compete with a trendy tattooed pierced stylish young teacher who obviously loves sex and sees nothing wrong in bringing a child into the world with only one parent?
Don't get me wrong. I don't object to the tattooes and the piercings. It's just that someone like this has such influence over young people and I don't even think she realizes how much. My girls sigh whenever this woman's name is mention. They're also starting to talk about how sweet and precious little babies are. I'm frightened for them. I don't want my girls to end up like this woman, pregnant and single.
It's very interesting that the topic of fathers hasn't come to the forefront. It took two to make that baby. Though the fathers engaged in the exact same act, the mothers are the ones who bear the "evidence" of the act, and seem to be the only ones under scrutiny here. How many men are teaching who have had unprotected sex out of wedlock? I'm guessing more than a few. Here's the bottom line for me: both the father and the mother did a fairly stupid thing. But to lose my livelihood for being stupid in a way that doesn't hurt others is unfair. To lose my livelihood when the man involved does not is unfair. I refuse to go back to the 1950s.
This topic came up over on another blog I read, but -W-'s readers don't seem to have this much variety.
Questions about fathers are irrelevant to the issue here. There are no visible signs when a men gets a woman pregnant, so there will be no questions unless he brings it up. (Just for the record, a male teacher discussing his sex life is wildly innappropriate.)
I don't believe that the teacher's pregnancy should be an issue for anyone, though I am personally appalled at the thought of a woman who sets out to become a single mother.
In one of the small Kansas towns I lived in as a child, I had a Sunday school teacher whom I adored. He was the chief of police, a clean-cut, upright man, to my way of thinking. I grew up in a household where smoking was taboo. The day I saw my Sunday school teacher sitting the police cruiser smoking a cigarette was the day my respect for him plummeted. If he had hidden his cigarette smoking behind closed doors, I never would have known and I would have continued to look up to him.
But how do you look up to a teacher who flaunts her out-of-wedlock pregnancy?
All I know is that every teaching contract I have signed in three states has that famous "moral turpitude" clause. It's in there for a reason, and if someone signs that contract and chooses to ignore any of those clauses, he/she should accept the consequences.
Of course, the monkey is on the school boards' backs. When I began teaching 28 years ago, a pregnant, unmarried teacher would have abruptly left due to a "family emergency," all on her own. Nowadays everyone is so afraid of offending someone, nobody will say anything, and she will be left to stand before these kids, desensitizing them and chiseling away at the crack in the one last stronghold of America, the family. Mom is too uncool to understand how things really are out there, after all.
Until someone speaks out and gets the silent majority to tap on the shoulders of every school board member and voice its outrage, our teachers can pretty much do anything.
By the way, not only is turpitude defined as "vile, depraved, and wicked," it is also "shameful, base, and ugly." No matter the degree, it is wrong.
Well, Ms. Jane, didn't you open Pandora's box? Coming back to read the comments has been interesting. That part that is alarming to me, and I suspect at some level to you (because you are such a strong champion of intelligent thinking and fairplay and the underdog) is that this conversation has now taken on elements of what happens when people become afraid of something they can't control.
Now we are at: "Can decent families compete with a trendy tattooed pierced stylish young teacher who obviously loves sex and sees nothing wrong in bringing a child into the world with only one parent?" That's fear talking and in the process, the thinking slips into assumptions that might very well be wrong. That comment is just one of many here that make the leap from "unmarried, pregnant teacher living with her boyfriend- can she be a good role model?" to "OMG! Our children are being taught by sluts and whores who are looking for recruits!" That's fear speaking. If, in fact, there are sluts and whores running the classrooms, well, do something about it.
To answer the question: Yes. I would certainly hope that you can compete with bad and amoral behavior. As entertaining and distracting as the more primal aspects of life are to young people, especially with media support on every front, you had better hope you can compete with out of control sex, violence and immoral dangerous behavior. Give yourself more credit. Give your children more credit, for pete's sake. My children grew up in a divorced family. The last thing they want is to enter into a marriage that won't work. The LAST thing. My mother smoked (herself to death). The last thing any of her children would do is smoke.
Children are smarter and hopefully more influenced by your good example. They go through developmental stages where they have serious lapses in judgment but you are there to pull them back. Ultimately, most children choose the values of good parents, especially if they understand the thinking and philosophies that support those values. They are also very capable, if guided in the direction, of understanding that adults sometimes make choices that are mistakes or irresponsible or-Heaven forbid- represent a different but not necessarily "BAD" value system. Those choices don't cancel them out as teachers, resources for learning or as role models. Alarmism is not a helpful or thoughtful response.
That being said, I now have an image of this woman as being the most sensational and pathetic thing since Anna Nicole. Can we see a picture?
I think you are being overly judgmental. If this woman's choices really are making her miserable, students who truly look up to her will see that, and choose not to do likewise. Similarly, I really do believe that ADULTS can make whatever sexual choices they want, just like they can decide where to live and how much to drink, even if you don't want your kid to mimic them. It's not like she's teaching math and saying "so that's how you do long division. And also, it's ok to have sex with just anybody. The consequences are no big deal!"
I think you are simultaneously reading students as without personal judgment (I respect Ms Smith, she had sex without being married, that must be ok for me too) but with a lot of social judgment (obviously Ms Smith made one bad decision, she can't be trusted to know about history). That doesn't give them a lot of credit for understanding things or having compassion.
I would agree that this teacher is not the best role model. Probably not the worst, either.
But she should not lose her job over it. She is an adult. As such, she has to live with the consequences of her decision. If that means she has a tougher job controlling her class, then that's what it means. If her peers and students are more judgmental, she has to deal with it. If she becomes the object of scorn, ridicule, and mockery, she has to deal with that, too.
We all have to endure the consequences of our choices, whether good or bad. It shouldn't be any different for her. But punishing her professionally for her private choices would cross the line in my view.
Teachers should be good role models, yes, but that's not what they're hired for. They're hired to teach. And unless her pregnancy turns her into a bad teacher she should keep teaching.
I think that everyone is rushing to judge this woman. Reproductive rights are concrete, unshakable. Every human, in or out of wedlock, has the choice to create a life and if they so choose to bring it into the world regardless of everyone else's opinion.
Someone mentioned that a male teacher speaking about his sex life is widly inappropriate, is it not also widly inappropriate for female teachers to do the same? Why are these women being allowed to discuss the circumstances of their pregnancy? That's the real issue here. What's good for the goose is good for the gander as the saying goes. If male teachers shouldn't be talking about who they have slept with or gotten pregnant, neither should these women.
Furthermore, why are teachers discussing their marital status at school with their class. Familial (and therefore marital) status is a federally protected class of people. These teachers should not be allowed or forced to talk about their current marital status.
I understand that students are inquiring people, but the teachers need to draw the line somewhere. Some things are unacceptable for all teachers to discuss (male AND female) and have no place in further educating the pupils.
Parents, stand up and take control of your children's lives! You have the ability to teach your children, to be the role model that you so desire for your children, if you'll only TAKE THE TIME TO DO IT! Most of these comments have fallen along Nanny-state lines... I can't be that role model, so let's mandate it so that the people I disagree with are put out of a job by the government. If you truly are a good parent, your children will follow your example, since you should be the largest presence in your children's lives.
Why is it that this teacher, a woman whom by all other descriptions is a fine upstanding young woman, is suddenly having her credentials called into question simply because she has chosen to go forth with this pregnancy? How do you know that this pregnancy was not planned? Maybe she wanted a baby, just not a husband? Maybe her time was running out?
I cannot help but believe those who see her unfit to be a teacher in her current predicament would also say the exact same thing had she had an abortion.
Chris in Indiana up there has nailed it, I'd say. But so many of our kids these days don't have anything at home we'd want them to imitate, we hope they run the oppositite direction from anything they see there in fact.
I think too that theres a big difference between a 22 year old living with current boyfriend and getting knocked up, and an older woman in long-term stable relationship deciding to have a baby. Not to discriminate against young teachers, but facts are facts.
It's true too that the men are just as guilty but since they don't change physically, there's really nothing anybody can do to prove it was them unless they take a paternity test and even then they can still go out in society and not look guilty.
I still think that in a perfect world, everybody would behave themselves, but that's not going to happen in a society where everybody uses the law to protect their own personal and sometimes bad choices.
Amy, if she had an abortion, who would know about it?
Pregnant, she's telling her students that premarital sex is okay.
Premarital sex is ok in our society. There is no law forbidding it. Instilling morals in children is the job of the parents, not the teacher. If you are that upset with your children's teachers, home school or send them to private school (almost every private school has scholarship programs). Although teachers should set a good example, parents need to be the ones teaching morals, because your morals aren't necessarily the morals of your students teacher.
We live in a society where people can do what they want (within reason), it's what makes this country great, that people can have a completely different view from your's and not be punished for it. If you disagree with premarital sex, explain to your children why and continually reinforce the point. She can have a child if she wants, it's her right as a human being.
I had to add to my original comment--What I meant by "scary" was not so much that this teacher probably could not legally be fired, but at the quandry itself. Because I think that firing someone who is pregnant and leaving her without a career, without a means to support her child, is a horrible example to our children also.
The bottom line is this: Our society as a whole no longer views premarital sex as wrong, period. Unless we want to take action to change THAT attitude, how can we punish those who are simply living by society's norms by taking away their livelihoods, etc. Jamie Lynne Spears comes to mind as well, and the attitude of "they're going to do it anyway" when it comes to our teens. But if they get pregnant while we're having that attitude? Well, God forbid. And birth control does not always work. I speak from personal, responsible, and unwed experience. Fortunately, I was not yet a teacher at the time, so I did not have the weight of "role model" resting on my shoulders.
I do wonder what some parents think of the fact that I am divorced, but for the over half who also are, and for the over half of my kids who come from divorced families, I am someone who truly understands their struggles.
It is so very difficult to find the line between compassion and upholding morals.
Vicki's last comment was funny and right on target. We really know nothing about the overall character of this woman other than the fact that she is pregnant, and somehow we've drawn a picture of her with her legs spread wide open and her students flocking to do the same. Holy hysteria.
It would be nice to know more about her, really, don't you think? Or maybe we should just tar and feather her.
My goodness. Where's the Christian message in that?
Holy moly, who is raising these kids that flock out to get pregnant just because their teacher is pregnant. Your kids? Never in a million years would the morality of a teacher affected my choices that drastically when i was a teenager. Something is wrong at home if children are so easily swayed from their parents values. Communicate with your children, people.
Anyway, I agree with the Music Man. That teacher is trouble with a capitol T. Better start a boys band.
More music in the schools and all will be fine. : )
You're all assuming that most students have something stable to go home to. Unfortunately that is no longer the norm.
Most students go home to a mother who has chosen to never grow up herself and a father who might be one of several mechanics down at the station and who is know to them only as THAT BASTARD. Their homes are full of booze and drugs and older siblings who still live in the house with their own out-of-wedlock babies.
Mom and Dad and dinner together around a family table have never existed for most kids these days. All they've ever known is Mom and her latest boyfriend, Uncle Daddy, who always comes first in more ways than once and, if they're lucky (or not) Dad, and his latest girlfriend Twinkle, who dances down at the Vogue. Twinkle is pregnant, but it's not Dad's. That's because she exercises her right to do her own thing. OH and older sis with her two each with a different father and older brother who has proven his studliness by making babies with four of his former girlfriends.
School is the one place where kids have any kind of continuty and a role model who is paid to be one, not to do her own thing with Twinkle and her pals in among and around the pole or to be one of brother's conquests.
Shouldnt our kids teachers be smarter than that? having the right to do it is one thing, but having the brains to not do it is what our kids need standing in front of them in school.
Wow... that's quite the depressing picture to paint (and quite a bit of fear-mongering). Although that might be the case for some, that is by no means the life the majority of American children are facing. Most of today's children do have stable lives with mothers and fathers (though they may be divorced) who care about them and who don't go and fornicate with everything that moves. Reasonable parents (and they are the majority NOT the minority) really do want their children to have a strong moral fiber and to succeed in life.
Like I said before, it's Nanny-State thinking. The government should take care of it all. It should tell us when and how we should have children, how we are to raise those children, and imposing their version of what is right on us. Remember people, America is made up of INDIVIDUAL rights. America is a nation made up of INDIVIDIUALS not one group or the other. That's why rights are accorded to the individual, not the group. (I realize that there are most defintely exceptions to that rule)
This woman has every single right to have a child out of wedlock and really, it isn't anyone's damn business what that reason is. If you don't think someone like that is a good role model for your kids, be sure to inform them about the bad decisions you believe that she is making and why they shouldn't make the same one's themselves. You should not undermine the teachers authority however, just like you wouldn't want your spouse/child's-other-parent to tell your children how evil and awful you are and that you shouldn't listen to anything mom/dad says. It is still your responsibility to bring YOUR children up with YOUR morals, not your children's teacher. As I said before, she shouldn't even be discussing (or forced to discuss) how her pregnancy came about or if she is or isn't currently married. (And guess what parents, you can't legally ask. Sorry!)
For all any of us know, this woman is a great person and wonderful teacher. Just because she (or any woman) is choosing to have a child out of wedlock does not make her satan. Which is why I say time and again, she should be a good role model, but being a good role model doesn't mean that she is going to have your exact set of morals. That's why it's YOUR job to teach YOUR morals to YOUR children.
Two years ago, one of our male teachers impregnated his girlfriend. When he shared his story, it quickly became obvious that she knew he wanted to end the relationship and had manipulated the situation in order to get pregnant (I'm changing pills, but we're safe...).
He wasn't happy about being tied to her, but he was ecstatic about becoming a baby daddy. He told EVERYONE (7th grade students included), and they thought he was THE MAN.
How did the administration handle it? They threw him a baby shower...IN THE SCHOOL LIBRARY. After the babies were born (twins, no less), he frequently had them brought in during the school day to visit, and no one seemed to have a problem with that.
Yes, this is a slippery slope, but there must be a line somewhere. I think the infamous "moral turpitude" clause exists for situations when that line is crossed. Regardless of what we do in our personal lives, we are required to be professionals when we are in our classrooms. THAT'S the line, and talking about our sex lives or our therapists or how many tequila shots we did over spring break is not professional. Period.
Why does the situation with my co-worker bother me so much? He was also my son's teacher.
When I said "I am that teacher" I was speaking metaphorically. I hope everyone understands that.
Chris in Indiana your comments are intelligent and well written. McSwain you are a voice of reason.
Mamacita, are you going to come back and tell us if we have helped?
How do you feel about teachers who have other morals or ideals that are not your own? What if the teacher is a lesbian,(I'm not, if that makes any difference to the argument) and the parents vehemently disagree with that? What if their religion says it is wrong and immoral? Should that teacher also lose her job? Or should those parents also teach their values in their home? Now, I do not think the lesbian teacher, or any teacher, should discuss her sex life with her students. They would probably see her out with her partner or know from other means. When I was pregnant my students really would have had to guess my situation. I did not talk about it and when asked I always told them that was not an appropriate conversation for us to have. I think maybe 2 kids even said anything about it one way or another when I was pregnant. Over the years I have had kids ask other things that were not appropriate and I always say the same thing. We don't talk about it.
What if the teacher is married to someone of another race? I have had parents in the past that would have been absolutely livid over that.(Of course this father admitted to being a member of the KKK and felt that if the kids saw a newscast about the Million Man March that he should be allowed to bring in the grand dragon to speak as well. I swear this is true.)
What if the teacher is an atheist in the heart of the bible belt? Moral turpitude?
It can't be any one thing. I agree that teachers need to be good role models. But by definition that is an opinion statement. And perspective, as well as presentation is everything. As a teacher you should know that.
Where kids are concerned I worry more about the teachers that are in the profession, but seem to not like kids. The teachers who are mean and judgemental to children worry me. Or how about the stupid people of which you sometimes write? I have worked with some of those. I would like to get them out of the classroom before a competent, intelligent pregnant woman. Should we go back to the days where schoolmarms had to be unmarried, or even pregnant married women had to quit, lest we even think about a teacher having sex?
It's bullshit, Jane. I'm sorry.
If we can't raise our own kids and teach them about right and wrong, WE are the problem.
I live in a state where we've sent five governors to jail in the last 50 years. There is a boy in our neighborhood that steals things from his friends. The guy that works at the Dairy Queen around the corner has a pot habit (the kids don't know what the smell is yet, but I do).
If we shelter our children from what really happens in this world, how are they going to cope with it when they become adults?
As parents, we need to use this as a lesson. We need to put the situation in age-appropriate terms that they understand, and state our position. They are children, not idiots.
As a single parent (who was married at the time of my son's birth, but who on the street knows that?), I am gravely offended by your suppositions.
You need the reality slap, I'm sorry.
Mamacita, you seem to have come to the conclusion that you are wrong about all this (or that's how I read your latest post about this), but I'm going to come out and argue firmly that you should be bothered by this. Teaching is a role model position, and teachers need to act accordingly. We have far too many "role models" out there that do not do so.
I'm sick of people in a role model position saying "I didn't ask for this," or "I can live my own life." Yadda, yadda, yadda. You signed up for it, you need to deal with it- be you an actor, teacher, pro athlete, or whatever, it comes with the territory. Deal with it.
Yes, role models need to be able to be human. But they also need to be role models. Forgetting that is never a good thing, so we should all be upset about it when it happens, not just a select few. Doing so is not being judgmental, hardnosed, or hateful. It's looking at a role model position as you should.
I read my wife's comments after I published mine, and I'm finding it eerie how similar we sound. Weird, eh?
Christine, if you come back and read this, I would agree that parents need to do a good job of raising their children for the real world. Children should be raised to know better no matter how bad their other role models are. But that doesn't mean someone in a role model position gets a blank check to do as they please.
Why do you all want to make that teacher out to be a whore? Oh my god! A grown woman having sex out of wedlock! What will be next? Working outside the home?!?
Come on folks. These sound like the same arguments that people used when I was in school for why gays and lesbians (some of my best and most loved teachers) weren't fit to teach.
Lynnette said it well. The kids who don't have a steady home to go home to do look up to their educators.
Which is why they SHOULD set a higher standard for the individuals in their classrooms.
I have wrestled with this thought when faced with it at one of my schools. I guess in today's society, with all the lawsuits, employers are afraid to take a stand. I agree that teachers should be held to a higher standard just like policemen and judges. My husband, who is a judge, could be removed from his job if there is an appearance of impropriety. After seeing some of the sports role models in the news lately, I think that as teachers, we should step up to the plate and be role models not because we have to but because we want to.
A few questions: assuming that it is wrong to have a single pregnant woman in the classroom, what are you suggesting they do about this person?
Should she be fired? Put on paid leave? Unpaid leave?
And if she keeps the child, she would still be an unwed mother so I assume that isn't exactly role model material either. So, would she continue to be unfit for the classroom? And for how long after the birth?
Oh, yeah, there's a great idea. Like there aren't enough utterly moronic rules that teachers have to follow, you'll now have to give them more of a morality clause then they already have.
Yes, you are a judgemental old whatever and more. I'm sure the teacher's an idiot, but who cares?
Whether some people like it or not, everyone doesn't subscribe to the "new morality." With the old morality, kids had two parents, STD's were rare, AIDS didn't exist, parents disciplined their children, and people behaved themselves, at least in public.
A teacher is more than a fact-spouting machine. A teacher is a role model and an example of a learned person. A teacher's life shows children what they, too, might aspire to be, and what parent hopes their child aspires to be promiscuous, unwed, pregnant, and telling children by example that this is some kind of "okay" lifestyle?
It isn't okay, and it's not judgemental to say so.
A lot of people are jumping on the "Sex is fine; you don't have to be married or even interested in the other person; everyone has the right to have sex with whomever they want, whenever they want, and to hell with the consequences because in today's society, consequences for our actions don't exist. Everything and anything goes."
I'm with you, Jane, and I'm guessing a lot more people would speak up if they weren't afraid of getting skewered by the very vocal minority who advocate sex without consequences or boundaries and to hell with setting good examples for our children. Let's instead stand before them and demonstrate that people can have sex, get pregnant, and keep their jobs even though their lifestyle isn't what most parents would want their children to see on a daily basis, even those parents who themselves live like that.
In other words, do whatever you want with whomever you want and don't fear the reaper, because his hands are tied by lawsuits and people DEMANDING their cake and DEMANDING to eat it, too, like you and a couple of others have said.
It's not a witch hunt, people, it's a desire to have good examples of ethics, self-control, and educated choices in our children's classrooms.
Screech about personal rights all you want. When you work with impressionable children, you should be held to a higher standard. Period.
Too many of them learn about bedhopping and free love at home.
My guess is that people who can't or don't want to control themselves but who still want the professional careers are going to do all they can to make sure they don't have to meet any kind of behavior standards that might cramp their style, if such people can be said to have style.
I will choose one short comment as an illustration of many:
"My guess is that people who can't or don't want to control themselves but who still want the professional careers are going to do all they can to make sure they don't have to meet any kind of behavior standards that might cramp their style, if such people can be said to have style."
Sorry, Cathy, but here is what I wish for you: that you may be judged for your mistakes with the same mercy you show in your judgement of others. And that goes for all of you others who commented here along the same lines.
It amazes me to see how many people are willing to throw stones at a person they know almost nothing about. So there is an adult woman who had sex out of wedlock, and got pregnant. And so many of you are absolutely *disgusted* with her for that.
Do you know the details? Do you know the story? Your life is so morally upright and mistake-free, you feel it is your position to judge others in this manner?
You only have to turn around and see how many *married couples* there are who are doing an absolutely horrible job with their children. What basis do you have to assume that she will do worse with her child?
Let me ask you this - she could have taken a much easier road. Avoided the scandal, and avoided anyone ever knowing she was pregnant. She could have had an abortion. Would you prefer that? Would that make her a *positive* role model?
I think having enough self-control and respect for her position as human being and role model for children to choose not to have pre-marital sex in the first place would have made her a positive role model.
Yes, people CAN wait to have sex. GASP. It's not all about personal selfish desires. And like Jane has said before, the "choice" some women like to argue about should be whether or not have have sex in the first place, not what to do about the natural consequences of it after the fact.
M, wouldn't having the gumption and ethics to put the sex on hold until such time as it's proper have been the easiest road of all?
Such an easy fix! No diseases, no pregnancies, no bad examples for children to see!
It's all a matter of self control, like people here are saying. Why do some people get so up in arms when someone suggests that adults should have some self-control and not be led around by their hormones? I would think that should be part of being a mature adult!
We don't act on every urge!
I don't think she should lose her job, and I think that any mention of a teacher's marital status in the classroom is highly inappropriate. That said, this woman has only made life more difficult for herself by making a decision that put her in the position of having a visible condition (pregnancy) that will, appropriately or not, garner attention (both negative and positive.) Pregnant women are singled out no matter where they go for positive attention from other women. Married and unmarried pregnant women can find even this kind of attention unsettling.
I think that when you have a job that makes you a public figure in any way, you have every right to do as you please, just like anyone else. What you also have is public scrutiny, which you can make work in your favor or make work against you. A person should never make a decision that they are not proud of. If you act in a way that causes you to be disappointed in yourself, we call that a learning experience. You have seen what you are capable of, and can make a decision to take action to prevent an occurrence in the future. For example, I seem to be pre-disposed to exercising poor judgment in matters of time management. I procrastinate. This has caused me to lose sleep, to curse and hurry and make myself generally miserable. It also caused professional difficulty once, and after that, I made a decision to never make that mistake professionally again. Luckily, I didn't get fired or anything. I just spent four hours at a Kinko's using my own money for a project that could easily have been done on company money and company time. And I'm not even a public figure.
When you accept a public position, you must accept that people will disagree with you vocally. Movie stars get chased by the paparazzi - it isn't right, but it is true. If Britney and Lindsey and the rest were not committing acts that do not make them proud to begin with, what would it matter if they were photographed? The paparazzi loses interest quickly if all they can get are shots of you talking on the phone to your mom or taking your cat to the vet, or eating in a restaurant with people. And even if they don't, who cares? You have the knowledge that all you were documented doing was mundane chores and activities.
If I decided to go out tonight and get drunk as a skunk at a bar and dance on a tabletop, there would not be many likely consequences, other than a hangover and a general loss of self-respect. I could assume my co-workers probably would never find out unless I told them, my mother wouldn't know because she lives in another town, my grandmother wouldn't find out ... etc. However, if I were a teacher and my students saw me stumbling home ... did I have the right to go get drunk? Yes, of course. Do I now have to deal with potentially embarrassing consequences? Yep. Would I act differently to prevent the embarrassment in the future? Certainly. Next time I felt the need to go get drunk and dance on a tabletop, I'd do it several towns away. If I were a movie star? Part of the territory. The millions of dollars they earn buy them the ability to fly to a deserted island to get their freak on, if they feel the need to engage in activities without experiencing the consequences. Think of Spider-Man. "With great power, comes great responsibility." What this means is that you CAN do whatever you want, within legal reason. You shouldn't be fired if you haven't done anything illegal. But, to make your own life easier, it's better in general not to do things you aren't willing to explain and accept criticism for. If the Pregnant Single Teacher (PST) is willing to accept the scrutiny and can stand by her decisions and accept that the parents of many of her students may take issue with her personal decisions, she's a strong woman.
Perhaps this was already asked, I didn't wade through all the comments, but . . .
I'm curious, would you feel the same way if was a lesbian with a live-in partner? How about if the father, in this case, where the teacher?
I taught high school for four years, and I think you're overestimating the teacher's influence on her students.
Or maybe seeing it where it isn't.
Sure, teens are active bs detectors where adult hypocrisy is concerned, but your colleague doesn't have to divulge that she's not committed to the father, if that's really the case, nor does she have to leave it to them to find out.
My favorite teachers all had a kind of pathos. What made them good role models (the smoker, the divorcee, the angry Vietnam Vet) was their capacity for self-reflection, for honesty.
The smoker admitted her problems to us, and tackled them, somewhat messily, but sharing her experience to allow us to grow from it. She was our Spanish teacher, and a darned good one.
The divorcee shared her experiences and dissatisfactions with us, not out of spite with her ex, but by way of explanation, always keeping it about understanding, honesty, and purpose in life. She worked out of despair into happiness, and teens need that lesson. This played a part in her teaching of literature, and helped make her an effective teacher.
My biology teacher in high school objected, emotionally, in front of the entire school, to students wearing camouflage pants as a stylistic affectation. He explained his reasons, and choked back the emotion, and then went back to his job. Seeing him as a veteran didn't detract from our ability to learn science - it did provoke us to wrestle with our papered-over past. Nice history lesson from the science teacher.
What your colleague does in class and in preparation for class are the most important parts of her teaching.
Is she honest with her students? Does she show them she is fallible? Does she model learning from mistakes, determination, individualism, and respondibility?
Or does she blame the biological-only father, shield herself from the kids, and pretend everything is OK? That would be bad teaching, I think.
Oh, and hi. Thanks for the interesting blog. I just found it today.
Commenting by HaloScan
