Tell me what you really think.
You may believe you won't make friends with this post, but you might be surprised. I am awed by your way with words, and how honestly and simply you can state your feelings. And yet, how much impact they have. It says all the things I want to say. .in a much more heartfelt way.
"Step right up, Ladies and Gentlemen....see the woman put her money where her mouth is!"
AMEN!
And I love that polar bear cub!
ITA with all of this (of course). It's removing the sense of guilt from choices that causes people to think of a new human life as a problem to dispose of vs. a person that needs to be cared for - either by them or someone else.
When people don't experience consequences or guilt from their choices as they grow because their parents or teachers don't want them to "feel bad"....well, then you get the sad type of behavior that seems to be prevalent today. I've told my son to stay away from those girls...and why.
I'm with you, but I'd add that men have to be responsible for their choices and omissions, too. If you don't want to be a father, either don't have sex or don't trust that the woman will handle the birth control. You don't like wearing condoms because they don't feel good? Tough. If you don't want to do your part and the woman decides to keep the baby, then you get to pay child support for 18 years.
Mamacita, you probably wont agree with me, but if a girl is raped, she should have the choice to keep it or not.
Would you like to be reminded of the day you got raped everytime you look at your child?
My problem with taking away a woman's right to choose abortion is that women will still choose abortion. And then what do you have? Coat hangers and back alleys, dead mothers as well as dead fetuses. That's what.
I've never been pregnant, and I've had sex many times, with several different men. I've been careful. I'm not sure that if there had been an accident, even back when I was in college, that I would choose abortion for myself. But, I still want to know that legalized, medically safe abortion is an option for me. And for all women.
I'd also say there's not a consensus that a fetus - especially one not viable outside the womb - is a human being. Some people don't see this as "murder".
I'll start out by saying I completely disagree with your stance on abortion.
it's been proven that those purity bonds that kids take fail. Then you've got pregnant kids who put their babies in the trash can without letting any one know they were pregnant in the first place.
I had a child that resulted from a rape. It took a lot of thinking on my part on whether or not I wanted to have this child - whether I could tell the difference between the innocent child and the jerk who raped me.
I didn't have an abortion nor did I give the child up for adoption - she's asleep in her bedroom as I type this. It was my choice to have her. Taking away or using guilt to get women to have unwanted children is plain wrong. Making that choice is a very difficult choice - adding the forced ultrasound only makes it worse.
There are people who think that women use abortion as birth control - they don't. There are people out there who think IUDs are horrible because they don't allow embryos to attach to the uterine wall. And now, there are people who are saying that birth control pills do the same thing. I don't agree with any of those ideas at all, obviously.
We definitely won't agree on this topic but I don't think you'll lose too many friends over it. If they are open-minded enough they'll realize that having different opinions makes each individuals. Having herds of sheep all baa'ing the same tune gets old.
I understand that you feel strongly about this. And I ask you this: What about someone who has been raped? I really did not get what you feel about that situation, my dear....?
Would you concede that others have a right to feel differently than you?
There are so very many reasons someone might not feel that they want a child...many many many reasons. Is there room for their, (in my belief) valid feelings?
And as far as the Polar Bear is concerned...We do not really know why she rejected her offspring. We can only project a lot of feelings onto that situation which comes from our own human pain, but, truly, we do not know what this Polar Bear mother knew or felt, etc....
As to People: There are many things as that lead you down one road or another and in some cases, as in rape...there are things forced upon us, as well as illnesses that happen too...Accidents happen. Rape happens. What are these people supposed to do.
All the forces that move people are so complex...well, I just don't think it is as simple as 'be responsible, and if you don't want children don't screw around'. (My interpretive words of what you said....) Bottom Line for me: We are all human and one can only judge what is right for each of us, by themselves. There needs to be a broader understanding of the dilemma's of human frailty, in my view.
A very interesting post, dear Mamcita.
Abortion is not the only embraced evil where reducing the number of children is concerned. I am one of the enduring minority who are opposed to contraception. Most Americans prefer to increase their standard of living rather than the number of living. Hence, wealth and children have become inversely proportional. Low birthrates in America, Europe, and Japan are presently becoming a demographic catastrophe.
Furthermore, does anyone actually believe that rape victims who were not aborted as babies in their mother's womb would now prefer to be dead?
Is there no end to the conceit of a people who would never have brought forth a Bach, Beethoven, Vermeer, Wagner, Schubert, Franklin, Durer, and Gilbreth (just to name a few who were from or had more than a few)?
LeChaim! A toast to life, to children, to innocence, to transcendence, to morals, to nobility, to passion, to faith, to fruitfulness, to beauty, to the natural gifts of God to multiply His blessings, and to having been given the privilege of growing up!
kill the rapists?
no no
I love reading your blog m - you take words right out of my head sometimes. Sure express them better than i can!
I meant to type: the children of rape victims who were not aborted as babies in their mothers' wombs (such as one of my dearest friends, who leads a deeply meaningful and productive life, including being the mother of six beloved kiddos.)
Certain grammar nazis make hotheaded commenters peevish and vexed.
The only thing wrong in this post is your statement that you won't make any friends by stating your position.
I am so tired of men who view women as vaginas with legs, of abortion providers who see women's as renewable resources and gifts that keep on giving, and of young women who don't respect themselves.
Ooops, should be "women's bodies," not "women's."
AMEN! I so appreciate what you said. You took the words right out of my mouth. I totally agree. And as far as rape victims are concerned---though they did not choose to be raped, the baby did not choose to be conceived either. Babies do not deserve to die. If you don't want it, put it up for adoption. There are tons of parents who cannot have children. I know many who would love to invite a child into their homes.
You know I love you, you're one of my dearest friends, but I cannot and will never agree with you on this one; I'd fight to the death for you to have the right to your opinion, but I'd do the same to make sure this particular opinion never becomes the law of the land.
I had a lengthy thing ready to go, but Michele said it all far better than I could. So go read what she did. (I was getting angry.)
WF
I think a woman's right to choose is of the ultimate importance; not all pregnancies are a result of "sloppiness". I think it's much more responsible not to bring an unwanted baby into the world than to bring it in and then abandon it.
BTW, I know women who use abortion as contraception. They think contraception is unnecessary, unpleasant, and/or inconvenient. Poor planning = expensive, destructive solution.
I have to disagree with whomever said women DON'T use abortion as contraception--that's incorrect as SOME women DO. I happen to be acquainted with at least one or two...after the third abortion, you'd think she'd take birth control pills.
This is a touchy subject--everyone's got an opinion, and that's as it should be.
If my life were in danger, selfishly I would most likely have an abortion to save it.
In college, I sat in a cold waiting room with a girlfriend of mine, waiting for her turn to abort. I was traumatized from just sitting in the cold little room, so I can only imagine what it was like for some of the girls.
And that reaction varied as well..so many girls came through the little room toward the exit crying, leaning heavily on the person who'd come with them to drive them home. Some came out doubled over from cramps, with the fear and sorrow in their eyes for all to see.
A couple of girls came bouncing out, smiling, with perfect hair, reassuring the other girls still waiting that OH, it was nothing, just a little pinch from the needle of the anaesthetic, then they let you rest, it's fine! No worries! Absolutely A-OK!
One girl said it was her fourth time there...she was twenty-one. Her 'husband' didn't want kids.
So don't tell me SHE wasn't using abortion over contraception.
The "choice" should be about whether or not to have responsible sex, not necessarily whether or not to abort a child. Be more careful in the beginning, and there'll be less worry at the end.
Is all I'm saying.
Only not nearly as well as you, Mamamcita. :D xoxox
It occurs to me that one of the things that happened to us as we "grew up" and stopped screaming, 'me, me, me, it's all about my body and my self!" is that we had children. Within days of being pregnant I was madly, truly, deeply in love with that small life- following day-by-day what was growing, changing, developing. Oh! today, there are fingers! today, there is a nose!
So, there is no kidding oneself about what's going on in there once you've been through it. The challenge is to raise our daughters to a maturity that allows them to find meaning and value even when they don't yet have experience. I also felt that one of the most importance messages I needed to convey to my son was this same respect for life and the consequences of his actions.
When you get clear in your head about something, Jane and put it down in words your writing is at it's finest. And I love that you drove Babette to be more concerned with content than grammar- she, too, writes with a passion. Thank you for this post and discussion.
I, too, know women who have used abortion as contraception. A woman I went to high school with had had three abortions by the time she was in her mid-20s, and she still wasn't using birth control. She wasn't stupid or uneducated - we attended a private prep school together and her father was a general in the US Army.
One of my friends in college, who later earned a Ph.D. at a well-respected school, had also had multiple abortions by the time she was in her late twenties.
I never understood their attitude toward birth control, and I understood their attitude toward abortion even less. I lost touch with both of these women many years ago. I wonder how they feel now about the way they lived when they were younger.
Wow, I agree, but you articulated it far better than I ever could have.
But I'm curious, because I was just talking to Kelly about this today. You're all for requiring women to see the ultrasound, but what about overturning Roe v. Wade? Myself, I don't think I want to go that far. I do think abortion is morally wrong (in many cases), but so is telling lies, and that's not illegal. Not all morality should be legislated, maybe.
Mamacita you are so right. Everything you said made sense and you said it much better than I ever could. However, I think that the man and women should both see that ultrasound! Men and women need to take responsibility.
To say that you views changed because you grew up then makes the rest of us who believe in the right to choose not grown up. I could sit here and go on an on about "I don't wanna grow up, I'm a Toys R Us kid..." but I'm not. I am a grown woman who believes something different.
To those of you who know women who use abortion as contraception - you've proved me wrong I suppose. Sweeping generalizations ... so I'll add to my statement - the MAJORITY of women do not use abortion as birth control. There. Better?
This is a heated subject for most - it's one that's very close to my own heart as I was very close to having one myself. I didn't keep my daughter because I thought of her as a living being. My reasons for keeping her at the time were purely selfish - I wanted to love someone the way I had never been loved by my own parents. I disconnected the action from the child once she was born. Before she came into this world I would have nightmares that she would look like the guy who raped me. Thankfully, she looks nothing like him.
Carrying a child that was created out of love is much much different. My pregnancies with my other two children were much much different than that of my daughter's. Instead of crying at night apologizing for being a bad parent before I was really a parent I was sharing the experience with my husband and it was, for the most part, a joyous thing.
Asking a woman who has been raped to carry a pregnancy to term is a lot to handle. There are constant reminders of what has happened over and over again during the pregnancy. It's very very painful to have to tell complete strangers that you've been raped and know nothing about the person who is the biological father to your child. Luckily, I guess, for me, I knew my rapist and so I had some (but not much) information to go on.
It's all boils down to what you consider to be the beginning of life. I have my own view on that which have been tainted with my own very personal experiences.
It is definitely a "to each their own" sort of situation. I try my best not to shove my beliefs down your throat - but to voice them so that maybe, just maybe, you can step outside of your own shoes and into mine for just a moment.
This comment wasn't meant just for Jane either - I am talking to the commenters as a whole.
And now I will enjoy my glass of wine before bed. Ahh 
Well said!
Wow. This is really good. A real discussion, people disagreeing, but no one flaming or screaming. Real human discussion, through a keyboard.
Personally, while I morally am 99% opposed to abortion, I refuse to see Roe v. Wade overturned. I cannot put myself in someone else's shoes. Obviously, some women here use abortions as birth control (for many years in many countries, especially behind the Iron Curtain, it was the only form of birth control available), but most do not. Obviously, most of the women aka_monty saw in that waiting room probably either avoided sex or assiduously practiced birth control after that trauma.
I see several frightening things happening, one of which was touched on briefly in the comments, that are resulting in the failure to use birth control. The most obvious one, one that has gotten some press, is the number of children not being educated about birth control, except abstinence. Kids will have sex, and, since they are kids, their hormones are insane, their brains are not fully developed, they have little concept of consequences, and not all of this is lack of parental training, but simply biology at its most basic. Somehow, children are expected to abstain from behavior over which they have less control than adults, that adults engage in regularly.
Personal experience: my parents were very religious, if I hadn't received sex education (real thing back when they taught it) in school, I would have been quite clueless, and they certainly would not have provided information about pregnancy prevention, much less birth control. (The attitude that girls should not be vaccinated against HPV because it would inhibit the consequences of sex outside of marriage is condemning girls and boys to lifelong suffering and even death.) My sister ended up pregnant in high school. And I might well have too, if I had been a little less weird. My other sister ended up pregnant while single. Both had their children and raised them, but their lives might have been very different had birth control and sex education been available and emphasized to them, or the boys in their lives had been responsible and used condoms.
My cousin was raped at a party in high school. She had the baby and brought her up. The rape affected her horribly. She had been popular, not A-list bitchy popular, but sweet and friendly and helpful. She was never the same.
My children will use birth control. We've been talking to them about this since they were small. Not the gritty details so much (they're still young), as the consequences of having a child at a young age.
The other contributing factor is one that's often swept under the rug due to the power, influence and money of the people involved. Drugs are usually involved, and young men in college (a scary, new, period of freedom) have contests to see which girls they can get to have sex with them without condoms. Young women, often still kids (teenagers), who are attempting to seem older and worldly will engage in this behavior. Later, they may blame the drugs, although they certainly had the choice not to use them, but the behavior has consequences. And the boys don't care. Not their problem, in fact, they often lie about themselves so the girls cannot find them later.
We should have full sex education for all children (because their parents won't do it), and birth control easily available and free. And the right to an abortion when all those things fail, because they will. And all states should have laws where unwanted babies can be left at safe locations with no retaliation against the mother.
Birth control has been around since people connected sex with child birth. It's not always a matter of desiring a better lifestyle for the parent, but desiring a better lifestyle for the children. I am able to give my two children much more individual attention than I would if I had six (and we're very fertile). The planet is overpopulated, we've over-fishing and over-farming, and this cannot be sustained. If we are responsible about our impact on the world and on others, our reproduction is something about which we must be responsible.
And worry about demographics is often a thin cover for racism.
We need to be responsible for our reproduction, and we need to make all the members of our society responsible. I firmly back any law that does not increase welfare payments to women who have additional children while receiving welfare. It works. It also works to have social workers who teach these women sex education and birth control, and systems which provide it for free. Free birth control is much cheaper then a child.
"so I'll add to my statement - the MAJORITY of women do not use abortion as birth control. There. Better?"
How do you know? Just saying this because you think it's so - or would like it to be so - doesn't make it so.
Cite a reputable study supporting your claim, preferably one that takes into account the fact that the women's reasons for needing an abortion can only be reported by the women themselves, and it's in their interest to make themselves sound more responsible than they might actually be.
I didn't think it was possible to articulate it better than Michele, but Persephone has done so. Brava.
WF
Uh oh, my dearest sister...this is where you and I have to bite our pillows. But that's ok; I love a well-articulated, emotion-free (mostly!) debate. You know how I feel about this topic--and you know how passionately I would present my argument. Let's discuss it at our next dinner party! But you're still my favorite sister
Di
Delurking to add I am very glad that we (women, especially) live in a country that allows us the freedom of choice - not to mention, blog about it - but, I also believe that, given the opportunity, there are those who refuse to acknowledge or take responsibility for their actions.
Sadly, there will be those who abuse the privilege.
Besides abortion.
I've made bad choices in my life and, looking back on it now, I can truly say that I believe if I had better understood the consequences, perhaps those decisions would have been different.
With that said, the best I can hope for is that my children understand that - barring honest mistakes - they are very lucky to be able to live in a time (and place) where there's very little excuse necessary for not making a well-informed choice, at least.
Raising kids is not easy - no matter how open your dialog - life has a way of throwing a curve ball into my train of thought.
Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to think on it, some more!
Editing my comment to add - although I haven't had an abortion - given the right to choose is something that shouldn't be taken away, or taken lightly.
Poetry, kiddo, pure poetry.
Another thought--even though most folks are finished with this topic...
I believe it's ludicrous to shame a young woman into carrying a child (regardless of what she does with it after it's born) because of reckless behavior (or birth control that didn't work).
And, the more "grown up" I get, the more adamantly I feel about the right to choose. Some women who decide to have the child are doing it out of selfish reasons--OR are shamed into it by do-gooders or religious fanatics. That's not very "grown up"!!
thirty years ago my opinions were the exact opposite as they are now. I changed
Your views then and your views now are nearly exactly the same as mine, then and now.
As for sonograms, when I was six weeks pregnant (15 yrs ago) they did a sonogram and I could see a tiny hand. People should know exactly what they are doing.
Mama,
Good post. I agree with everything except the part about Barney...wait wrong post, oh yeah I agree with this one completely. If you don't want a kid don't have sex. Lots of fun stuff to do otherwise right? Cool blog I will have to check in some more. I noticed you like Brak, and right you should cause he is the freakin' man. Keep up the good work!
Lots of good points here, but I think it's worth noting that the primary problem with required counseling, waiting periods, and sonograms isn't that they'll show people what they're doing...Great on showing people what they're doing; though I expect that this is not an easy decision for most and most know what's going on.
The primary issue is that all of these measures (along with other requirements) drastically increase the cost of an abortion; a procedure which already is usually not covered by health insurance. A waiting period means additional days in a hotel for someone who has to travel a long distance to get the procedure (true in many states where there's only one clinic in the whole state). A sonogram is not an inexpensive procedure.
If the point is to ban abortions or effectively ban them for low-income and many middle-class women, then such measures make sense (let's remember that women with access to substantial amounts of cash will always be able to get whatever medical procedure they want).
But if the point is to make an informed choice, it's worth keeping that in mind for what it's worth. Increasing the cost drastically effectively removes most women's right to choose. And while I wouldn't make the choice personally and would encourage anyone I know to make a different choice, I think this is the sort of thing best kept between a woman, her doctor, and her G-d.
I apologize for the length.
Based on my own life experience, I am of two minds on this issue.
I would go a step farther than requiring a pregnant woman to have a sonogram. I would also require a woman considering abortion to visit a NICU. I had twins born at 28 weeks, and while they were in NICU, they were positioned near a baby born the week before, and a month more premature.
I had four other children, they were never really real to me until they were born. Seeing those babies, both my own and the other, fully formed and fighting for survival, brought it all home to me in a way that no picture, no sonogram, no model, ever could. My husband used to support the right to abortion. We had a long talk about fetal development, and I showed him pictures and read to him about what goes on at various stages. It didn't turn him into a hardcore pro-lifer, but he is much less supportive of abortion than he was.
That said, I agree that outlawing abortion will not stop it. Abortion should be safe, legal and available for those who are going to do it anyway. All of my children were born during an abusive marriage where contraception was not an option, it wasn't allowed. I very seriously considered abortion during more than one of those pregnancies. Couldn't do it, but it made me much more compassionate to those who do.
Last story, I promise My sister had surgery for female problems and learned that in addition to the problems she had surgery for, she also had a malformed uterus. She was told that she might never conceive a child naturally, which was (mostly) ok, as she really didn't want kids, at least not for a long time yet. A few months later, and the first time she ever had unprotected sex (she'd always been super-careful, even after the diagnosis), she learned she was pregnant. She also considered abortion, and I couldn't condemn her for it. She didn't go through with it. When he was born two months early, she was sure it was all her fault for having thought about not having him. She's thrilled to have him, now.
So, what it all boils down to is, I agree with you in theory. I absolutely believe abortion is wrong. That said, I can also understand why someone would consider it, and I can't fault someone making that choice out of desperation. Someone using it as an alternative to birth control, OTOH, should be sterilized.
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