Stroppyblog
"Up to 10,000" is completely honest, as it does actually mean "less than 10,000", indeed "anything between 0 and 10,000".
Like when Ryanair advertise flights "from 1p", you know that "from" means "much more than".
yep, vague but the implication in picking 10,000 is that they mean closer to that than 2000!
Brilliant article and analysis stroppy, must be the 2nd? time we agree on something.
Feel free to use aa pix if you like:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bolshie/
Hi Paddy
Given it was a small demo odd I didnt see you.
I'll check out the pics later and add one. I didnt get a chance to take any pics.
We must stop agreeing Paddy, I have my reputation to think of 
good post
but sadly it will be wasted on about 95% of the Left
there is still so much denial as to the paltry state of the British Left, denial born out of small groupings where three men and a dog is thought as a success
whole chunks of the Left can't be troubled to reflect on why the Left is so small and getting smaller by the day, and why the BNP has been relatively successful
part of that reason I suspect is that much of the Left is living in the past (glorious internationals, transitional programmes, 1917, the barricades, crude Leninism, etc)
that failure was most evident in the inability of the Left to build anything tangible (longlasting and sizeable) out of the millions who participated in the antiwar movement
as you say the Left is fucked 
I didn't see the glee this time to be honest, I thought people were simply disagreeing over tactics and worried - although I've certainly witnessed it on other occasions and I'm sure there are plenty of people with axe's to grind.
Anyway, my thought on this is - what was the point of it? I can't for the life of me work out what good this demo was meant to have done.
Some people are criticising the size of the demo - but if it had been 50,000 it would still be the left talking to itself wouldn't it? The size only influences the prestige the organisers recieve it, doesn't effect the BNP's support in the slightest.
But demos are our comfort zone I guess. Even pointless ones.
It seems to me that when the BNP stand in elections, or mobilise politically, there are two tasks.
Persuade those sympathetic to the BNP that those sympathies are misplaced; and mobilise enough progressive people to out vote, or out mobilise the far right*. This demo served neither purpose.
I'm not opposed to demos per se, but the reason the demo was so small was because very few people saw the purpose of it. I'm rather worried it's a complete distraction from the tasks in hand frankly, and brings anti-fascist work into disrepute making it harder to mobilise in the right place and at the right time. Which is the opposite of glee on my part.
* We can add in points about disrupting fascist organisations and building a long term viable alternative if you like - although that's on a more strategic than responsive level I think.
jim
I had mixed feelings about going on the demo &to be honest it was a pointless exercise.
I agree with you on tactics.
We rely to much on demos and we need to look at other tactics and why a demo rather than a default position.
Perhaps it wasnt glee but I have seen plenty of point scoring on both sides .It seems both sides (and others on the left as well)are all too happy to point out losses or failures.
I sometimes think we lose right of why we are socialists.
I just felt the argument was more than just tactics and more replaying of the split.
I agree with Jim's points are how best to counter the BNP, the problem is that is unlikely to happen
you only have to glance at the thread at Liam's to see that disunity is one of the modern British Left's "strengths", its full of political potshots and counter point scoring
the rather silly attacks on Searchlight do nothing to enhance the Left's reputation and merely seem to be the settling of old scores, pettiness again
Searchlight is one of the best things to come out of the Left and yet is constantly attacked by people who should know better, such attacks do nothing but ultimately spread disunity and division
again, the English Left is fucked
sb - sure, I'm not having a pop at anyone who went, although it may have come across that way. I just think there is an element of (some) people being reluctant to criticise because they're "doing something" - well how are we going to improve without critically looking at what we are doing collectively as the left?
I'd say that criticism only becomes invalid when it's either a proxy war for something else (like the respect/swp split) or/and doesn't have a positive alternative proposal.
Having said that I'm always impressed by those leftists who have the courage to admit they don't know the answer to a particular question.
mb - I agree with you on the attacks on searchlight, that's just stupid. I'm sure, like all of us, they've done things that are wrong or bad but why write people off, particularly when they're organising activities in the areas where it counts.
Jim
Didnt think you were having a pop.
"well how are we going to improve without critically looking at what we are doing collectively as the left?"
We really need to do this but Im not hopeful at the moment. The left is very insular and seems to keep replaying old battles internally . There seems to be too much 'history' and not of a good sort .
If the left is the collective memory of the class thank God everyone else has amnesia! There are some battles that really don't need to be fought a hundred times over, and things don't have to be done exactly the way that Lenin did them.
Anyway, perhaps it only looks bad re: the far left organisations - there are some other rather hopeful things going on and lots of lefties who don't happen to be in the orbit of "the groups".
Yes, the Left needs to be honest, not engage in sectarian squabbles, think more cleverly about how they organise demos etc., etc.
But let's put it in context. The far Left is very small and weak but despite all this they (i.e. the SWP and others) take it on themselves to organise (and pay for) this anti-fascist activity. And for that they should be praised
I'd be far more critical of those who carp about bad organisation and don't turn up or help organise - Labour MPs, trade union leaders, etc - against what they would say is a joint enemy
Talking of glee, I think there is plenty of that in some quarters in the blogosphere re the Tower Hamlets councillors joining New Labour.
But stroppy you must be pleased that you have some new left wingers in the labour party - no?
spp - I don't think people are obliged to help organise something that's a waste of time, and it says nothing about their worth as an anti-fascist by not turning up to a demo when a demo is not what is required.
That doesn't mean demonising those who organise the event but it's difficult to get excited about when there are leftwingers organising practical activity where the fascists are organising which seems much more relevant - and those organising the demo seem to want to draw people away from that kind of meaningful activity
That's all ok but it reminds me of the comments made against the Greenham Common demonstators long ago by types like Militant.
Some of their criticisms were right and some very wrong but the rebuttal to them was spot on - if you don't like what they are doing, go and organise outside another nuclear weapons base, there are a few to chose from.
Likewise with the BNP.
spp - I think that's a reasonable point. The world does not revolve around these people.
A note of caution though - one of the arguments coming out of this is "you should join us in what we're doing to make it better - and anyone who doesn't is not serious about anti-fascism and is a sectarian."
What you can't do is argue both at the same time and be consistent. Either - "try your own thing comrade and good luck to you" or "join us and make our event(s) better" but not both when the events are taking place simultaneously in different places.
this and the thread at Liam's indicates why the English Left is fucked
because despite a real threat from the Far Right and their growth, is that a real concern for a lot of people on the Left?
no, they are more interested in settling old sectarian scores
you'd think that people here haven't had the benefit of reading Trotsky on the KPD? and how the lesson that petty politics in the face of the threat from the Right is a recipe for disaster?
Fighting the BNP is easy.
One needs non-fanatical people who live, work, sign-on with potential BNP voters to reason against fascism.
Unfortunately they are rare.
Outsiders preaching are causing more harm than good.
If the left really care, then they must make friends with the predjudiced and uneducated, just like the BNP has.
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