You are a public health offical. Why are you devoting your efforts to debunking other tobacco control officals? Have the tobacco companies got to you, Dr. Siegel? The tobacco companies lie. Blah blah blah blah.
I just figured I would get Jill's, Bill's, and Steve's posts out of the way.
The tobacco companies may well lie but quite clearly the crap eminating from the anti-smoking brigade is equally duplicitous.The difference is of course the tobacco companies no longer get the chance to say anything courtesy of the MSA , whilst anti tobacco has gone so far off the deep end it's paying a visit to the Titanic.Wouldn't it be great if they stayed there.We may return to a far saner and far less acidic forum for discussion or is it a case that anti smokers will always want more.
"Why are you devoting your efforts to debunking other tobacco control officals?"
You said it clearly: debunk.
"You are a public health offical." Dr. Siegel is also a scientist. As he said in an earlier article, there is no sense in devoting time and effort into scientific research if nobody needs it.
http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot....onger-
need.html
March 16, 2006
CanWest News Service
$12 million worth of research compromised.
"More than a dozen scientists and doctors, several of them recipients of sizable federal grants, have been faking research, destroying data, plagiarizing or conducting research on people without necessary ethics approvals, the country's lead research agencies report."
Officials from the Canadian Institutes of HEALTH Research state that CIHR awarded over $12 million to projects in which researchers have been found to be violating research ethics or integrity rules since 2003.
One MEDICAL researcher, who was awarded $1,347,445 for various projects, fabricated and falsified data and was permanently barred from receiving federal monies.
The compromised research took place at Dalhousie University, McGill University, McMaster University, Sunnybrook & Women's Health Sciences Centre in Toronto, the University of Alberta, UBC, University of Montreal and University of Sherbrooke.
And it's JUST THE BEGINNING, ladies and gentlemen, because ordinary citizens like myself continue to press the government, our research institutes and leading men & women in all fields to defend & protect the integrity of SCIENCE itself - by rooting out and de-funding people in the Health Research, Health Propmotion and Public Health fields who are letting AGENDAS drive the science.
The mighty are falling, and everyone in tobacco control had best declare themselves right fast. Are you on the side of scientific integrity, with Michael Siegel, or are you on the side being swept into the dustbin of irrelevance.
Ask not for whom the auditor's bell rings - it rings FOR YOU!
Robin Gaison
Edmonton, AB
Nice work everyone. Because of your work Dr. Siegel, more bans are being implemented. Keep their feet to the fire!
Gov. Jon Huntsman signed into law Thursday a bill that bans smoking in private clubs and taverns beginning Jan. 1, 2009. Smoking in fraternal organizations, country clubs and restaurants that are private is banned beginning Jan 1, 2007.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=177254
The tobacco companies may well lie
What? What would make you say that?
Throat cancer for smoking ad star
PA
17mar06
A FORMER British model who fronted a multimillion-pound cigarette advertising campaign revealed yesterday he was suffering from throat cancer.
John Moore – the face of Alpine cigarettes in the 1960s – blames years of smoking for his illness.
His voicebox and windpipe having been removed, he breathes and eats through a small hole in his neck.
I recognize that sometimes organizations can make mistakes, especially in interpreting scientific studies and I acknowledge that I myself have from time to time made statements that needed to be clarified.
Yes. And isn't it the mistake you made with Campaign for Smoke Free Kids that got you removed from their group?
"Nice work everyone. Because of your work Dr. Siegel, more bans are being implemented. Keep their feet to the fire!"
hey, thanks for the light! SMOKE IF YOU GOT 'EM!
erik, you noticed that the last sentence in the article was from one bar owner who didn't like being told what to do with his business? "Bob Brown, Owner, Cheers To You Bar: "We're absolutely going to fight it. We're all adults here.""
as for "John Moore – the face of Alpine cigarettes in the 1960s", i don't wish him ill will, but i hope to heaven he doesn't win a lawsuit.
and as for SFK [drumroll please] - um, no erik; i believe it was clarifing his statements that they did not like.
as for "John Moore – the face of Alpine cigarettes in the 1960s", i don't wish him ill will, but i hope to heaven he doesn't win a lawsuit.
Don't worry, the product he used to plug apparently will kill him off before he could collect anything.
"And isn't it the mistake you made with Campaign for Smoke Free Kids that got you removed from their group?"
Erik - what in the world are you talking about?
"John Moore – the face of Alpine cigarettes in the 1960s – blames years of smoking for his illness."
I wonder if John Moore is leaving out what Joe Eszterhas usually leaves out of his "Smoking gave me throat cancer" speeches: That he was one of the biggest drunks around.
When he HAS mentioned his drinking I don't recall him mentioning the role alcohol plays in throat cancer risk.
Come to think of it I recall another reformed drunk who gives anti-tobacco speeches (to school children). He doesn't bother mentioning the alcohol risk either, just his smoking.
Erik - what in the world are you talking about?
I thought I would give you a chance to explain it to us first.
Isn't the below attack against you concerning your making associations with people and tobacco groups related to your attacks now we see against other health groups?
In a misstep of his own, however, Siegel's commentary accused Robert Levy and Rosalind Marimont -- writing on behalf of the Cato Institute, questioning the validity of the Center for Disease Control's claim that 400,000 people a year die from cigarettes -- of accepting tobacco industry funding and thereby tainting their article.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/
new...RTICLE_ID=15225
Levy challenged Siegel to provide that supporting documentation and asked for a retraction. Siegel responded by admitting his commentary may have been misleading and pledged to ask ANR to post the retraction on its website. He also apologized to Marimont after she challenged his accusations.
Isn't the fallout you had with ANR after you wrote the apparently erroneous article the reason behind your attacks on them now?
Do you think you now have a better methodology of implementing smoking bans than the other health groups?
erik, do you realize you just proved my point? probably not, but thanks anyways.
now here's the thing, mike owns his own behaviour and does what he can to stand true to his personal principles. you dislike that.
we say that yes, we accept the risk, thank you for letting us know where we stand, now excuse us while we go have a smoke. you dislike that.
and when we don't come to you and the other anti's with fear and remorse in our hearts, you decide to tell us stories about people with horrible diseases and in that, imply that We Will Suffer the Same FATE (andohbythewayyoudeserveitfornotfallinginstepwitht
herestofus).
you remind me of the religious types who revel in using god as a weapon. and i can't tell you how much that pisses me off!
[my apologies to those spiritual in their faiths]
we say that yes, we accept the risk, thank you for letting us know where we stand, now excuse us while we go have a smoke. you dislike that.
Nah, I fully support people being able to smoke or drink as much as they want.
see, now you're catching on, erik! all that extra 'sin' tax revenue; all the ways that drinking and smoking may be providing jobs for people so they don't have to go on public assistance (saving you that extra tax revenue); all the millions being pocketed by the government from smokers' and/or drinkers' social security payments that won't live long enough to collect on it so that it will be there for you as you get oooooooooooooooolder (don't hold your smoke free breathe on that one); and as a bonus, if a couple of us hang in there long enough, the drug manufacturers can use our rapidly decaying bodies to test new nicotine based cures for a variety of diseases that they'll be able to soak the public for all its worth, thru the medicare prescription plan.
you're welcome, erik.
now, why don't you go sit in a nice smoke-free restaurant somewhere. i'm sure a car will come barreling into it any minute.
link to another fake research story (same one?)
http://www.canada.com/national/n...75-
86cdef0b4228
now, why don't you go sit in a nice smoke-free restaurant somewhere. i'm sure a car will come barreling into it any minute.
Thanks, as long as the car doesn't sit there and idle.
Si and benpal,
Relax. I wasn't being serious. I was just mocking the paranoid rants that Jill, Steve, Bill, and Erik always post.
I am your side over here. I am smoker myself and can't stand people like Banzhaf or Glantz.
Erik and the rest of his ilk have some weird idea about how they're going to have a healthy death.
Well, that's #2 on their belief list. The first is that if they don't smoke they won't die. Go figure.
Harley -
i got it!well, okay, that first line was SO true to form that it took me a minute, but i got it.
lol
Hi Harley i clicked (eventually) and held off ,but not enough for you not to have noticed, apologies.
"Nah, I fully support people being able to smoke or drink as much as they want."
No, you don't. If you did, you would not be cheerleading for the implementation of wide reaching smoking bans.
After all, we can ventilate automobile exhaust from an indoor auto racetrack or arena, but tobacco smoke is impossible to ventilate.
Ran accross this interesting study on The Agitator today (linked from The Agitator)Titled:
Against the New Paternalism: Internalities and the Economics of Self-Control
Here is the link to the paper,
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa563.pdf
One of the things that stood out in it for me was this;
'In short, the old paternalism said, “We
know what’s best for you, and we’ll make you
do it.” The new paternalism says, “You know
what’s best for you, and we’ll make you do it.”'
Remind anyone of any groups we know of?
Dr. Siegel,
Do you honestly believe that this $200 dollars of your money and the "TRUTH" is more tempting to these organizations, than all of the grant money they receive from The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation to make these false claims? Please, tell me you are not that gullible...
Perhaps iopener2000 could provide some documentation to verify his/her allegation that ASH and SmokeFreeOhio receive grant money from RWJF.
I wasn't aware that RWJF has funded either of those organizations.
http://www.rwjf.org/files/
public...R04_Tobacco.pdf
•American Cancer Society Inc.,
Ohio Division, Inc.
DUBLIN, OH
$230,252—(6 months). ID 50374
http://www.smokefreeohio.org/oh/
...anizations.aspx
American Cancer Society
American College of Surgeons
American College of Surgeons, Ohio Chapter
American Heart Association Ohio Valley Affiliate
American Lung Association of Ohio
Ohio Division, Inc.
Ohio Division, Inc.
DUBLIN, OH
$150,000—Educational campaign to increase
tobacco taxes, protect tobacco prevention funds
and reduce tobacco use among minority
populations (1 year). ID 52393
This following is not a face contributor to SMOKEFREEOHIO...but bears to RWJF grants.
Whitman-Walker Clinic Inc.
WASHINGTON, DC
$50,000—Increasing the involvement of gay,
lesbian, bisexual and transgender communities
in clean air campaigns in Cleveland, Ohio, and
St. Paul, Minnesota (1 year). ID 52399•
Ergo-by RWJF supporting American CancersEverything - And those agencies support SMOKEFREEOHIO...Yes they are connected.
Just as I am connected to FORCES, Big Tobacco, My govenment, The MSA, by supporting one and all with my smoking as THE SMOKER.
well done, capri! beat me to it!
I have to run off to work--but would love to check into ASH aspect too. Maybe tomorrow.
Happy St Paddy's day...from a Celt Womyn to all. By the way, Celts never give up!
Perhaps iopener2000 could provide some documentation to verify his/her allegation that ASH and SmokeFreeOhio receive grant money from RWJF.
I wasn't aware that RWJF has funded either of those organizations.
Bill Godshall
No problem Bill. ;o)
SmokeFreeOhio is a small branch coming from Tobacco Free Ohio:
http://www.tobaccofreeohio.org/
Which is yet another branch funded by the Robert Wood Johnson oundation (Pharmaceutical Industry) created in 1997;
QUOTE;
Funded primarily through a grant from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation
http://www.tobaccofreeohio.org/about.cfm
Grantee
American Medical Association (Chicago, IL)
Amount: $ 453,154
Dates: September 1995 to March 1996
ID#: 028086
APPENDICES
Appendix 1
(Current as of the time of the grant; provided by the grantee organization; not verified by RWJF.)
The Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids Member Organizations
1. Action on Smoking and Health (ASH)
http://www.rwjf.org/reports/grr/...grr/
028086s.htm
Per iopener2000 claim and capri's posting, RWJF would not be so stupid as to violate the federal internal revenue code by allowing any of their grant funds to be used for legislative or political advocacy (including ballot initiatives).
Besides, according to the 2004 RWJF grant portfolio posted by capri
http://www.rwjf.org/files/ public...R04_Tobacco.pdf , the $230K grant to the Ohio Division of the American Cancer Society expired in June 2004 (as did all other RWJF Smokeless States Grants), and the
$150K grant to ACS (which expired at the end of 2004) was for an educational campaign about tobacco taxes, protecting prevention fund and reducing tobacco use by minorities. No mention of smokefree ballot initiative.
So despite unsubstantiated allegations by anonymous folks, there has been no evidence presented indicating that RWJF is (or ever was) funding ASH or SmokeFreeOhio.
Thank you Capri. :o)
bill, in honest organize crime, they call it 'money-laundering'.
So despite unsubstantiated allegations by anonymous folks, there has been no evidence presented indicating that RWJF is (or ever was) funding ASH or SmokeFreeOhio.
Bill Godshall
You need to re read Bill... there is more than enough evidence to connect ALL OF OUR SO CALLED "PUBLIC HEALTH ORGANIZATIONS" TO FUNDING FROM THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY FOR THEIR ANTI TOBACCO "SCAM."
http://www.rwjf.org/portfolios/r...st.jsp?
iaid=143
"Per iopener2000 claim and capri's posting, RWJF would not be so stupid as to violate the federal internal revenue code by allowing any of their grant funds to be used for legislative or political advocacy (including ballot initiatives)."
Lets say I have a dollar, and want to spend two dollars: one on research and one on advocacy. Instead of having to make a choice about what to spend my dollar on, I ask you to give me a dollar. You give me a dollar, but make me promise to spend that dollar on research, and not advocacy.
I now spend two dollars, the dollar you gave me on research, thus enabling me to spend the dollar I already had on advocacy.
Therein lies the kicker. Of course, on paper, these funds I am sure went to their supposed purposes. Yet the grants, of course, enabled the opportunity to spend monies from other fund sources for political advocacy.
Whats worse is that their research in itself is a form of advocacy. Think about it - would ASH or Smoke Free Ohio want to spend precious research funds on a project where they did not already know the outcome beforehand? Guys like Repace can be counted on to deliver the goods exactly as ordered.
The additional RWJF and Tobacco Free Ohio weblinks posted by iopener2000 do NOT indicate that SmokeFreeOhio was a recipient of RWJF funds.
The 1997 RWJF grant to Tobacco Free Ohio was part of the AMA administered Smokeless States program (which ended more than a year ago, and which I considered a huge waste of money because it did very little to reduce smoking).
As one of the smokefree activists who first encouraged RWJF to fund tobacco control programs back in 1992 - 1994, I've been very disappointed with the cost effectiveness of their programs.
In sum, they spent lots of money, accomplished very little, displaced many of the preexisting smokefree advocacy organizations (e.g. STAT, DOC, GASPs) and statewide coalitions, and took credit for the achievements of many self funded activists and activist organizations.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!
What do they "indicate" Bill?
All joking aside let's take a look at Bill's post;
He says;
The additional RWJF and Tobacco Free Ohio weblinks posted by iopener2000 do NOT indicate that SmokeFreeOhio was a recipient of RWJF funds.
Yet,
quote;
SmokeFreeOhio is a campaign by the American Cancer Society in collaboration with the American Heart Association, American Lung Association, the Ohio Health Commissioners Association, the Ohio Hospital Association, the Ohio State Medical Association, the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, and other supporting organizations to create smoke-free public places and workplaces in the state of Ohio.
http://smokefreeohio.org/oh/abou...ut/
default.aspx
And all of these organizations are listed here along with the amount of grant money they receive from RWJF;
http://www.rwjf.org/portfolios/r...e&
sortorder=asc
One thing Bill does have correct; RWJF HAS SPENT (but they are currently spending, also; just look at the dates… ) A LOT OF MONEY ON THIS, AND THEY ARE MAKING EVEN MORE BECAUSE OF IT…
If any of the FORCES fanatics discovered evidence that any of RWJF funds have been spent on lobbying or political activity (which is prohibited by federal law), I'm certain that they would have already notified the IRS and urged it to revoke RWJF's legal status as a non profit foundation.
A real eye opener that goes beyond 2000 ... 
Bill, please refer to ed psycho post dated 03.17.06 - 2:17 pm, look over the grants distributed at the site I posted, and hopefully you will get the gist of it anyway; Thank you.
Thank you, benpal...
Mr Godshall explains that THEY took credit for others hard work....and the jobs/money/prestige that went with it??? High morality just doesn't pay in the long run...especially if you aren't getting just due/pay/recognition of just who/what you are and stand for!!! Just a thank you as they escorted you to the door? I know how that feels Mr Godshall...you do it to The Smoker every day.
"As one of the smokefree activists who first encouraged RWJF to fund tobacco control programs back in 1992 - 1994, I've been very disappointed with the cost effectiveness of their programs.
In sum, they spent lots of money, accomplished very little, displaced many of the preexisting smokefree advocacy organizations (e.g. STAT, DOC, GASPs) and statewide coalitions, ***and took credit for the achievements of many self funded activists and activist organizations.***
Bill Godshall | Homepage | 03.17.06 - 6:05 pm | # "
iopener wrote:
"RWJF HAS SPENT (but they are currently spending, also; just look at the dates… ) A LOT OF MONEY ON THIS, AND THEY ARE MAKING EVEN MORE BECAUSE OF IT…"
RWJF is no longer funding tobacco control programs, but some grants are still in effect.
Also, Johnson and Johnson (parent company of RWJF) got out of the Nicotine Replacement Therapy business years ago when they sold their products to another drug company.
"RWJF is no longer funding tobacco control programs, but some grants are still in effect."
Phillip Morris is no longer claiming nicotine is not addictive, but anti tobacco is still holding a knife to their throat.
"Also, Johnson and Johnson (parent company of RWJF) got out of the Nicotine Replacement Therapy business years ago when they sold their products to another drug company"
a) so, um, billy, why isn't RWJF funding tc anymore?
b) drug company? which one? RWJF own any interest in it per chance?
c) what do you think of the research (neither done nor funded by Big T) that suggests smokers show resistance to the effects of parkinson's, alzheimers, and mesothelioma?
d) what drug companies do you own stock in?
RWJF is no longer funding tobacco control programs, but some grants are still in effect.
Bill Godshall
I thought they hadn't funded any, Bill?
quote;
What We Fund
The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation provides grants for projects in the United States and U.S. territories that advance our mission to improve the health and health care of all Americans.
Tobacco Use & Exposure
http://www.rwjf.org/applications.../
whatwefund.jsp
http://www.rwjf.org/applications...nd.jsp?
iaid=143
http://www.rwjf.org/portfolios/i...ea.jsp?
iaid=143
As long as the tobacco industry is a "profit" threat, there will continue to be grants available from RWJF for anti tobacco programs as well as bias studies... Nicotine replacement therapy isn't the only thing they were/are cashing in on either. I believe you know that, also...
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