I have been repeatedly chastised for "associating" myself with groups like FORCES and even for merely linking to their web sites.
But here's the rest, rest of the story.
As one of the last holdouts on the planet, Forces asserts that secondhand smoke poses no health risk at all.
They are using your site as one of primary sources for your articles to try to slow down the enactment of smoking bans throughout the country and world. Luckily it isn't working.
Republicans and democrats are enacting smoking bans at a faster rate now than even with 2 additional states protecting worker health this way in the last two months.
However, with your fallout with ANR and new close association with Forces, many rightfully wonder if your positions on secondhand smoke have changed.
With that said, I believe you have been consistent in re-affirming the fact that second hand smoke poses many significant health risks and your support of indoor smoking bans.
erik,
forces isn't a 'force' in and of itself as in it's supported by individuals. not grants, not MSA money, not Big T, and only minimally by the government because of it's non-profit status.
it's not one of the "last hold outs", and it DOES represent a portion of the population who either choose to use tobacco and/or - and please hear this - are concerned about the ever increasing encroachment of the socio-political health industry into our private lives.
and if you and steve, and billy g. and whomever else you include in your cadre could begin to understand that as well, you all might gain some respect in your arguments.
Annette wrote:
"forces isn't a 'force' in and of itself as in it's supported by individuals. not grants, not MSA money, not Big T, and only minimally by the government because of it's non-profit status."
How do you know that FORCES and/or the individuals who support it haven't received money or other assistance from cigarette companies?
well, for one thing bill,
you haven't provided any 'proof' of that although your side has been perpetually asked to.
and nothing i've found in that site or thru it trails back to big T. in fact, it's nice to have someone who is pro-tobacco choice being just as disgusted about big t as i tend to be.
you can go to the rjreynolds site if you want. i sure as hell don't.
what gets me is that no one seems to have learned the REAL lesson around big t - industries that wide spread with such big players will NEVER have the public good 'at heart'.
and i assure you bill, that SO includes our government as well. yet all this legislation being passed 'for OUR good' compromises us as individuals ever further, even if it is too difficult to look at.
so no, i truly do not believe forces gets any Big T money behind it.
unless of course, you have proof bill. i'll concede that point if you have it.
Bill said "How do you know that FORCES and/or the individuals who support it haven't received money or other assistance from cigarette companies?"
One could easily ask "How do we know that Smoke Free PA and/or individuals who support it haven't received money or other assistance from the smokeless tobacco industry?"
But I'm not going to play his style of game by making innuendoes that you "might" or "could be", or say "nobody has proved Bill Godshall hasn't taken money from the SLT industry."
To use such an argument is to acknowledge you have no better counter argument, and it is transparent the focus is on winning a public relation (propaganda war), by attempting to discredit the speaker/writer in a guilt by association, instead of addressing the issues put forth.
Dr. Siegel has given Bill and the others the opertunity, and even monetary encouragement to "spit" or get off the pot. Perhaps Bill could use some ex-lax, because he seems a bit constipated on this point.
"But you can imagine that I was even more shocked and dismayed when they provided the reason for their refusal: "it would be a mistake to state anything that would give him credence. ... I realize that your views on the matter are heart-felt and sincere, and that mere removal of your name from the paper, without more, will not be entirely satisfactory to you. But at this point ANR must put its *****political credibility ahead of what you consider to be your scientific credibility*****."
And there is the answer to most of the questions right there-Political Credibility (oxymoron if I ever read one) ahead of Scientific Credibility.
And also explains the overall attitude of general folks towards Science Studies-neither are worth their weight in salt as produced today.
Smokers and non-smokers are well reasoned people.Anti-smokers on the other hand are nearly always bigots,zealots or Bill God-shall-do-as-he's-told.
Hello Bill. How are you? Are you taking your medicine? I see that your memory is still occasionally failing. You ask:
"How do you know that FORCES and/or the individuals who support it haven't received money or other assistance from cigarette companies?"
But some time ago you said:
"The burden of proof is on those who make the accusation."
Hello?!?
tR1cKy wrote:
"But some time ago you said:
"The burden of proof is on those who make the accusation.""
I don't recall accusing FORCES of receiving money and/or other assistance from any cigarette company, but I strongly suspect that has occurred, as cigarette companies have learned from their past experiences of creating and funding the NSA and other smokers rights front groups.
"How do you know that FORCES and/or the individuals who support it haven't received money or other assistance from cigarette companies?"
Bill, when will you stop your silly and stubborn accusations. You and your likes had a chance to bring forward the proof and to win a price, you missed it. And even if they did get money, what's your problem? So far, anti-tobacco has received far more money from smokers, and they don't feel ashamed although they should.
"but I strongly suspect that has occurred, as cigarette companies have learned from their past experiences of creating and funding the NSA and other smokers rights front groups"
bill, if you suspect than say 'suspect'.
if you have proof, then show us the proof.
when challenged, the pro-tobacco choice side brings it's information to the table, which you then simply dismiss rather than debate.
and for the record, i am not a tobacco mole, stooge, whore or spy, nor am i a 'victim of addiction'.
nor do i intend to be a victim of the anti-tobacco movement.
"As one of the last holdouts on the planet, Forces asserts that secondhand smoke poses no health risk at all."
So what? Aren't you doing exactly the same thing to the contrary, yet we have the same data sources (I suspect you didn't read any on the Forces sites). As Bill put it, and you agreed, it's a matter of perception, appreciation and interpretation. There are no hard facts, there are "suggestions" and "possibilities" at the most. Go have a look at the BMJ Rapid Responses to get an idea that Forces is not alone.
Neither you nor Bill have conceded that the Helena "miracle" might be just that: a miracle, nicely cooked up to fill an agenda.
As long as you support the wildest, most ridiculous claims made by ASH, you better stop accusing Forces of any wrong-doing.
Annette wrote:
"when challenged, the pro-tobacco choice side brings it's information to the table"
Oh really. I haven't seen any income statements posted on FORCES website or anywhere else. In fact, I haven't seen any contact information for its board members, staff or others who write all the false claims on FORCES website.
I speculated yesterday on the need of a certain individual to take ex-lax. At this point, I don't believe this will help. The symptoms seem much more severe. It seems he is unable to navigate a home page to a link entitled "Contact Us", as evident by his recent comments. After further consideration, I believe this inability to see or recognize such simple links can be wholly attributed to a medical condition called Rectal Cranium Inversion. Now I have not accused him of having his head buried up his ass, but I strongly suspect this to be the case.
"In fact, I haven't seen any contact information for its board members, staff or others who write all the false claims on FORCES website."
Bill, maybe you can point us to the corresponding links at ASH.ORG.
"Discussion Board:
Please note, however, that this information is available only to member-supporters of Action on Smoking and Health (ASH)... Simply use this link to send your credit card information via a secured system"
Payed indoctrination ...
@Bill:
Why don't you remove that big piece of wood from your eyes?????? Or is it something different?!
http://www.forces.org/contact/co...act/
contact.htm
Actually Wiel you posted an incorrect link.
Bill said "In fact, I haven't seen any contact information for its board members, staff or others who write all the false claims on FORCES website."
Now post him the link to the writers of the false claims!
Oh .... err, there aren't any!
Wiel,
It took me a grand total of about 20 seconds to locate the list of board of directors, and contact information for the major contributors to your web site.
I challenge anyone that doubts the degree of deception, (or incompetence) being practiced by Mr. Godshall to see for themselves the ease of locating this information.
It's curious how he harbors such a deep conviction for his suspicions yet claims to have never seen a list of your board of directors.
...but I strongly suspect that has occurred, as cigarette companies have learned from their past experiences of creating and funding the NSA and other smokers rights front groups.
Bill, I think people are asking you what evidence you have that "smoker rights" groups are funded by cigarette companies?
Ooooopps. Take that back:
Who funds you?(Forest)
Most of our money is donated by tobacco companies.
A smaller sum comes from Friends of FOREST (ordinary smokers and the occasional wealthy benefactor).
Sorry Bill. I guess you were right.
Also see (National Smoker Alliance)
Abstract
This Philip Morris internal presentation, A Smoker's Alliance, is a formative document for PM's "smokers rights" front group, the National Smokers Alliance (NSA), which PM created to help the corporation fight the spread of public health laws mandating clean indoor air.
http://tobaccodocuments.org/land...man/
137980.html
http://www.no-smoke.org/document...ment.php?
id=257
Real grassroots there.
As for FORCES and Tobacco manufactures:
For example, a 1997 fax from Gian Turci of FORCES Canada to the CTMC [Canadian Tobacco Manufacturers Council] thanks the group for its hospitality. The memo states, "I am sure that this will mark the beginning of a good and mutually beneficial cooperation between FORCES, other smokers' rights groups, and the industry. However, I will keep our communications confidential for obvious reasons."
erik,
that NSA crap i knew about so that feels like beating an old rug.
but the second part about the fax between gian turci and CTMC, that i did not know about. could you please link us to where/how you got that?
thanks
Annette and Erik,
The relationship between Gian Turci and the CTMC never materialized into one that brought any money in to FORCES. So Bill's accusation remains undocumented, and I think it's about time that it be retracted. There is simply no evidence that FORCES is a front group for Big Tobacco, nor any evidence that it takes tobacco money, and in contrast, there is a lot of evidence that it does not take such money. In response to my challenge (http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2006/02/
challenge-issued-to-document-that.html), in which I offered $100 to any anti-smoking organization that could document FORCES receiving tobacco funding, I received not a single response (http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2006/03/
challenge-to-provide-documentation.html). So I think it is time to discontinue these undocumented, inappropriate, and irresponsible accusations against FORCES.
but the second part about the fax between gian turci and CTMC, that i did not know about.
Here's the document in PDF form:
http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/c...pdf&
ref=results
Make your own conclusions.
Bill Said:
I don't recall accusing FORCES of receiving money and/or other assistance from any cigarette company,
Thus, there is nothing to "retract."
However, the above fax speaks for itself concerning Forces. Forest openly admits their financing from tobacco companies and NSA has long been disrobed.
you know what mike?
as soon as i saw that fax info, i completely forgot about your challenge and no one stepping up to it.
all i saw was fury that forces might be funded by Big T and i was running in the mind to where i would go next for support.
this is the biggest thing pushing me ever-harder to hate the anti-smoking movement - the constant emotional terrorizing.
i have a difficult enough time not giving into bigotry towards any type of religion because of the malevolence of some of its practioners. this type of behaviour makes me even more determined not to trust anyone who says they're looking out for anyone's good, never mind my own.
Annette,
See http://www.no-smoke.org/getthefa...?
dp=d21|d23|p59
This is ANRF's file on Forces. Erik failed to mention that Bates collected information from Philip Morris confirm FORCES does not accept industry money.
http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/c...pdf&
ref=results
If you will also notice, Erik cut and pasted the exact same text contained on the page "For example, a 1997..." so it's obvious he knew there was documented evidence FORCES did not accept industry funding.
You will also notice he did not provide a link to this page, but only the fax. So why did he attempt to mislead the readers in such a way?
You will also notice he did not provide a link to this page, but only the fax.
Yes, you should make your conclusions based on the document itself recovered, not from the spin from one source or another. The document speaks for itself:
"I am sure that this will mark the beginning of a good and mutually beneficial cooperation between FORCES, other smokers' rights groups, and the industry. However, I will keep our communications confidential for obvious reasons."
thank you walt, and good question.
i'm finding it very difficult to maintain respect for my opponents when said opponents do nothing to earn it, and most things to discourage it.
I believe Gian Turci responded a few weeks ago on this blog about that fax. If I remember rightly he went to a meeting of smoking activists that had a catered lunch that was evidently paid for by PM or BAT or somesuch.
He had a sandwich.
And Erik wants to hold that up as being the equivalent of the tens of millions of dollars folks like Glantz and Repace get for sticking to their party line?
Erik's still sniffing burning tires methinks.
Michael J. McFadden
Author of "Dissecting Antismokers' Brains"
http://www.AntiBrains.com
i looked around in that link (dropping off the tail end of the http address) erik provided.
read a little bit about concerns big T had with a couple of the chemicals used in its growth; one of the many things i've been looking for information on. here's what i find interesting - the dept of agriculture was involved.
yes i know that doesn't seem significant, and i haven't yet researched this, but i wonder whether the chemicals used in tobacco farming, not processing, was something that was getting buried because of the implication for the agricultural industry? i wonder how that potentially connects with the 'delay' and subsequent refusal of big T coming clean regarding the dangers of tobacco.
and in the little bit i read, i found it very interesting that though they were clearly acting in their own interest as an industry, they also seemed very concerned about being nailed. they were pro-actively trying to do something to keep extra toxins OUT of the tobacco.
yes, to protect their own collective behinds, but still, it came across without the arrogance that the medical and pharmaceutical industries have. and it makes me wonder if the MSA deal was a way to make it enticing for big t to take the rap for themselves and for other industries that could have been hurt by them (big t) disclosing too much.
last thing - erik, i did notice something was odd about the pdf link you provided, but was still convinced to some degree. i am no longer.
now i simply accept that any non-profit is likely to schmooze with anything with deep pockets.
i vehemently oppose that because of my pro-tobacco-choice stand; but can you guess how much i loathe it coming from your side of the aisle? you, who seem to be preparing the soil for the seeds of some master race?
and it makes me wonder if the MSA deal was a way to make it enticing for big t to take the rap for themselves and for other industries that could have been hurt by them (big t) disclosing too much.
The MSA was a settlement. That means neither party got exactly what they wanted but that it also improved their positions.
Without the MSA, we would have never know about the thousands of interesting documents.
Project SCUM:
http://www.projectscum.org/image.../images/
pdf.gif
Directory of documents:
http://www.tobacco.org/
Documents...tdocuments.html
(have fun here)
Nor would we have know about the NSA documents or the interesting fax on FORCES and tobacco.
However, Dr. Siegel has argued that the states settled far short with Tobacco and should have demanded much more and that the smoking rates would have declined at a faster rate w/o the MSA.
I don't know if he is right or not as it is hindsight. At this point, it doesn't matter.
Plus, people should be able to smoke if they wish to, there are certainly many other self distructive habits out there which are totally legal.
Drinking a fifth in a night is certainly going to injure a person more than a cigarette or two.
you, who seem to be preparing the soil for the seeds of some master race?
Nah. Well...maybe. Ok...yes, yes!
A small education in tobacco farming>
Not a lot of chemicals from this end-except what mother nature provides.
Tobacco farming is highly labor intensive-here is how it is grown in WI. Yes, I do know what I am talking about-I and my ex and sons raised it as the winter walking around money crop (cash crop for the rural uninformed). The seeds are soaked in warm water overnite in a sock. The seed bed is steam cleaned-yes, a steamer comes and purifies the soil where you hand plant the seeds. It is covered with cheesecloth. It is regularly watered. It is hand picked for the tobacco field. It is planted by hand with a two person planter, the seedlings are pulled from the bed, the people ride on a planter (pretty much same type as used for tree seedling planters) pulled by a tractor. As seedlings grow the rows are hand hoed for weeds. (Field being previously plowed over and over for soil fineness and weed control-pesticides rarely if ever used because of the delicateness of the tobacco seedling) Bugs, tobacco worms hand picked for control. Tobacco plants are hand topped (the flowers of plant picked off for bigger leaf growth). Hand harvested-cut at base of plant and layed down. Pilers come along and pile cut plants into piles. Spearers come along and spear onto tobacco lathes (for hanging/curing in tobacco sheds-tall, long sheds with side doors for tractors and side shed cantilever boards for airing/curing). Speared tobacco loaded onto flat beds and hauled into tobacco sheds. Speared tobacco handed up to those up in the rafters and hung on poles from the roof to just above the floor.
Curing occurs throughout the fall season into winter (here in WI) and then case weather occurs (Dec or into Jan)-when the temps are cold (30+) and the humidity is high. (I still walk outside and know when case weather occurs). Speared/cured (dried by the weather alone) tobacco plants are taken down groups at a time and into the stripping shed. A small shed, usually with wood burner for heat and water on that burner to keep humidity in the leaves as you strip the leaves off the stalk and put into piles wrapped in brown paper-for tobacco buyer-long hours, labor intensive, payed the winter bills, fun money, a new fridge, etc..
Most of this kind of local farming activity is gone or going now due to the MSA and buyout of tobacco farming here in WI. WI tobacco was for cigar wrapping and some chew, due to our climate.
My sons got the buyout money-which is at it should be-and they also got the experience that was taught from growth to death of something (we also raised livestock, organic gardening, major crops, etc..)Community social experience-all the little farms worked together at all levels of the tobacco raising. Hard workin Hard Playin Folks all. I may not have agreed with all of the experience, but I would fight anyone who thought it should have been/should be Controlled by the likes of the social engineers of today.
I thank you for "listening"
capri
erik,
for someone who's trying to win an argument, you're losing your audience.
As far as the comments being made about FORCES go, the accusations are on very weak ground, because there is simply no documentation that FORCES receives tobacco money. I will still hold up my offer - $100 to any tobacco control organization or individual who can provide documentation that FORCES is funded by Big Tobacco.
Short of that, I find it irresponsible for tobacco control groups or advocates to suggest that FORCES is anything other than a group that is promoting its own interests, as much as they may disagree with them.
In fact, ANR's file on FORCES makes it clear that FORCES did NOT in fact receive tobacco funding and ANR itself admits they have NO SUCH EVIDENCE.
So it's time to put up or shut up. If you have the evidence, put it forward now. If you don't, then it's time to stop making these unfounded accusations.
Mike wrote:
"There is simply no evidence that FORCES is a front group for Big Tobacco, nor any evidence that it takes tobacco money, and in contrast, there is a lot of evidence that it does not take such money."
Unless Mike has reviewed all of FORCES financial documents, he has no idea whether or not FORCES has received any industry funding.
Simply because ANR (which Mike has accused of making fraudulant claims)
posted an internal PM memo (indicating that PM wasn't aware of FORCES receiving cigarette industry funding) is not evidence that FORCES hasn't received industry funding. That's like citing McCaully Caulkin's claim (that Michael Jackson didn't molest him) as evidence that Michael Jackson didn't molest anyone else.
I do recall Martha Perske and Wanda Hamilton posting notes on speakeasy.com (after PM shut down its front group called the National Smokers Alliance) that the ownership of that NSA created website was in the process of being changed over to Martha and/or Wanda.
And since many of the FORCES folks have been post on that website for many years (as has Mike Siegel recently), it is only logical to assume that FORCES folks are not being forthright about their past and perhaps ongoing affiliations with the cigarette industry.
"And since many of the FORCES folks have been posting on that website for many years (as has Mike Siegel recently), it is only logical to assume that FORCES folks are not being forthright about their past and perhaps ongoing affiliations with the cigarette industry."
Is that the best evidence that can be provided that FORCES is a Big Tobacco front group? That some of its members post on the speakeasy website? That's really weak.
I often post on the speakeasy website myself. Does that mean that I am not being forthright about my affiliations with the cigarette industry?
I think we ought to have a little more solid "evidence" than this if we're going to make public accusations like this. Otherwise, the anti-smoking movement becomes no better than the tobacco industry, who we are always criticizing for making undocumented claims.
I guess 2 can play at that game.
"And since many of the FORCES folks have been post on that website [..] it is only logical to assume that FORCES folks are not being forthright about their past and perhaps ongoing affiliations with the cigarette industry."
Absurdidty at its highest. Throw away the shovel, Bill, your digging yourself in ...
benpal please don't tell Bill to throw away the shovel,let him dig a hole,a v-e-r-y big hole ! Then suggest he answers the questions already asked of him, the ones he chooses to ignore because he doesn't like the answers.
Bill writes, "Unless Mike has reviewed all of FORCES financial documents, he has no idea whether or not FORCES has received any industry funding."
You're right, Bill. Actually, I surmise that FORCES gets tons of industry money. They've grown so big from the massive amounts of big tobacco support that we're constantly deluged with FORCES propaganda commercials during prime time television, daily press releases in the mainstream media, ads in newpapers, billboards and posters everywhere, pro-smoking messages on busses and in subway cars. FORCES buys tables and booths at every trade show to help combat your anti-smoking efforts. There were a thousand FORCES operatives bought and paid for by the industry at the 1994 OSHA public hearings to thwart your efforts which is why OSHA never adopted their proposed rule regulating ETS. FORCES industry paid operatives have infiltrated ASHRAE, the EPA, NCI, OSHA, ALA, ACS, and more. FORCES even has some bought and paid for operatives who have infiltrated ASH, TCRC, RWJF, ANR... but, shhhhh, you're not supposed to know about those. Yep, FORCES is everywhere, Bill.
//end sarcasm//
Bill, also wrote, "I do recall Martha Perske and Wanda Hamilton posting notes on speakeasy.com (after PM shut down its front group called the National Smokers Alliance) that the ownership of that NSA created website was in the process of being changed over to Martha and/or Wanda.
Ahhh, nothing gets past your eagle eyes. Martha and Wanda were able to convince NSA to give them the rights to take over speakeasyforum.com after they shuttered the doors. Since it was handed over without charge, you might be able to say they were started by big tobacco, but Martha and Wanda immediately started paying for the registration, hosting, and tech support out of their own pockets. I have since taken over as Martha and Wanda have given up the reigns and it is now financed entirely by myself as long as my wife lets me. Perhaps you can tell me, have I yet made it on to ANR's "Enemies List" as a shill for big tobacco or perhaps one of their covert front group operatives? Please let poor lil me know when I've broken into the big time, eh? Thanks much.
"And since many of the FORCES folks have been post on that website for many years (as has Mike Siegel recently), it is only logical to assume that FORCES folks are not being forthright about their past and perhaps ongoing affiliations with the cigarette industry."
You have some mighty inspiring gift of assumption, Bill. After seeing your innate gift lead you that far astray from the truth, I'm inspired to believe half of what I see and none of what I hear. Are you trying to say that Mike Siegel is not being forthright about his past and perhaps ongoing affiliations with the cigarette industry due to the fact that he posts on speakeasyforum.com.
Oh, well. Thanks for some free advertising for the website, Bill. I owe you. (Does that mean you're now one of my shills?)
"Unless Mike has reviewed all of FORCES financial documents, he has no idea whether or not FORCES has received any industry funding."
Can I review all of SmokeFree Pennsylvania's financial documents, Bill?
Sorry. I didn't mean to hijack this comments section and I don't want to tarnish this blog.
My comment was disgusting, childish, rude, and unfair. So is Bill. My statement was a merger of two tactics Bill likes to use. First to use gross-out imagery (public urination, sex with a blow up doll, etc.) and to accuse people and groups of actions without any proof.
I am assuming Bill doesn't like when it happens to him.
______________________________________
People always accuse FORCES of taking tobacco money. I know they don't. Have I seen their records? No. Do I know about the inner workings of FORCES? No. If they had all this tobacco money that Bill and other accuse them of having, shouldn't they at least be able to hire a decent web designer? The FORCES website is only slightly less ugly than ASH's. If they were being paid by BT they would at least be able to put up a good image.
Wouldn't they have professional writers who smoke writing for FORCES? Wouldn't they be able to hire a doctor who is doesn't believe that SHS is deadly to write for FORCES? Wouldn't they be able to pay for newspaper ads? Wouldn't they be able to put out at least one television ad? Hell, wouldn't they be able to get a page on Wikipedia?
"Rahman was being prosecuted for converting to Christianity 16 years ago while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He was arrested last month after police discovered him with a Bible"
- and -
"Officials said the case was dropped Sunday partially because of concerns that Abdul Rahman is mentally unfit to face trial" - usatoday.com
so michael, feel like you can identify?
in the name of 'religion', and 'for the good of the children'.
and by the time we realize how we much we've compromised ourselves, we'll have to work twice as hard to get our rights back.
As my name suggests (excuse me for my poor english) I am from Italy where a smoking ban (without question the harshest in Europe) has been in effect since January 10 1995.
Obviously promoted by our then "health minister" Girolamo Sirchia, with well known connections to Big Pharma (and who, by the way, is currently under investigation for pocketing money from the pharmceutical industry).
Well, I have written enough, I am just asking when intelligence and common sense will return and all of those shady characters (especially Bill, who never anwers a question) will be thrown to where they belong, to hell.
I highly respect Dr. Siegel, Although his views are quite different from mine, Because he is an intelligent and above all HONEST scientist!
Marco, Italy
Commenting by HaloScan
