I would suggest that smokers of menthol cigarettes be polled as to whether they want the menthol out of their cigarettes. Isn't that the way we do things in a free society?
Are Peppermint Patties a Gateway Drug?
All Minty flavored ingestibles should be banned - it's the only solution to 100% compliance.
There, that was easy.....
Gilster
It occurs to me that the AMA probably can't face a menthol denormalization campaign, and frankly neither can I.
Raising the mob, as TC will, and all the other opportunists baying for the banning of those highly addictive mint humbugs, is more than any sane mind can cope with.
Doctor, I suggest you lie down for a bit in a darkened room.
Its only mint.
The Coercion Society
http://www.chicagotribune.com/
ne...0,5947896.story
.
Re: Peppermint Patties a Gateway Drug?
I wonder what is the harsh taste they are masking?
If peppermint is removed from the product, would deaths from obesity decrease?
Where's the outcry for FDA regulation on this?
Which reminds me. To Dr. Siegel, Bill Godshall, and other people like them:
Do you ever feel embarrassed when you sit around the table with your fellow whatever-you-call-yourselves and discuss tobacco control?
What I mean is, none of you work for a tobacco company yet you kick around ideas like you're tobacco company executives:
How many cigarettes should be in a pack. What flavors should be offered. How to display tobacco products on store shelves. In what magazines should advertising be in. What color should cigarette packs be.
You discuss pricing, you survey smokers to see how satisfied they are with your products...I mean their products.
Knowing these companies produce a real product that doesn't need subsidizing to be profitable, unlike your "tobacco company," that has to be embarrassing.
Honestly, grown men and women sitting around discussing whether menthol should be in a product THEY DON'T EVEN USE is truly embarrassing. And to throw race into it is utterly pathetic.
"The AMA continues to ally itself with the tobacco industry, and in this case, to actively try to block efforts to protect the public's health by improving the FDA legislation " Dr Siegel i asked you to substantiate your comments regarding the addition of menthol in yesterdays post.You haven't,yet you once again imply that by removing menthol it will improve the FDA's legislation.Can you advise why and provide evidence to support your beliefs regarding menthol as masking the harsh taste of tobacco AND makes quitting that much harder.It seems to me that you are seizing upon this minor point in order to make the issue substantially larger than what it is.Surely there are more pressing issues that you could comment upon.
James Austin's post is right on. It was like he was reading my mind. There are a couple more questions I could ask though. Don't we vote and elect Politicians to write and enact laws? Just what business is it of the AMA's, ASH or any other tobacco control activist as to what is in a bill or exempt from a bill? I don't even remember seeing Phillip Morris on a ballot either. I think it is high time that anyone not receiving a paycheck from Capital Hill or from the taxpayers to sit down, shut up and let our Politicians hammer this out.
diane
I know what you mean, I'd like a video of that meeting when they sat around a table and discussed the best way to turn normal, happy human beings into outcasts until in a state of uncomprehending misery, they were forced to comply with TC's wishes.
Its like ordinary human happiness and freedom of thought is some kind of contagious disease that they are afraid to catch.
Latest article from Joe Jackson
http://www.thefreesociety.org/Is...-out-down-
under
"In recent years tobacco products have been developed in a variety of flavors including chocolate, vanilla, mint and fruit. Surveys have shown that children are more likely to choose flavored tobacco products. Because these products appear to be specifically marketed toward children, today the AMA spoke out in support of state legislation that would prohibit the sale or distribution of flavored tobacco products."
This has to be the biggest load of bull feces ever. WHEN was the last time that tobacco companies were legally allowed to market directly to "children"? Understand, to the general public a "child/ren" is anyone UNDER the age of 18. At 18, children are considered legal adults capable and able to marry, vote, go to war to possibly die, sign legal contracts, buy a home, rent an apartment, etc. Most states have had laws for over 3 decades (that's 30 years for you anal type who choose to pretend to not understand the word decade) that cigarettes can NOT be sold to anyone UNDER the age of 18.
Given that, kindly explain to me how flavorings are marketing to children since ONLY legal adults can purchase them?
You all need to get a freaking grip on reality already. This is beyond pathetic.
James Austin: spot on! Makes them really look ridiculous, doesn't it!
On in the same vein: "American Medical Association Leadership Ignores Overwhelming Sentiment of Members"
Funny, nobody talks about the sentiment of those really concerned: smokers. It's like two car thieves fighting over a stolen car.
Despite all the arguments from smokers on this blog, Dr. Siegel doesn't even take into consideration the party with is the target of these campaigns.
OT
Following GreatScots link from a previous thread
List: 10 things that are surprisingly good for you
Chocolate
"It contains chemicals called polyphenols that reduce the presence of free radicals, which cause cell and DNA damage."
Just reading about the polyphenol anti-oxidants in tobacco leaves.
Here's one
"Quercetin is found to be the most active of the flavonoids in studies, and many medicinal plants owe much of their activity to their high quercetin content. Quercetin has demonstrated significant anti-inflammatory activity because of direct inhibition of several initial processes of inflammation. For example, it inhibits both the manufacture and release of histamine and other allergic/inflammatory mediators. In addition, it exerts potent antioxidant activity and vitamin C-sparing action.
Quercetin also shows anti-tumour properties.
Quercetin may have positive effects in combating or helping to prevent cancer, , heart disease, cataracts, allergies/inflammations, and respiratory diseases such as bronchitis and asthma"
Only wikipedia, but who knows.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercetin
The properties of tobacco plant chemicals just aren't matching up to the theory.
"In recent years tobacco products have been developed in a variety of flavors including chocolate, vanilla, mint and fruit. Surveys have shown that children are more likely to choose flavored tobacco products. Because these products appear to be specifically marketed toward children, today the AMA spoke out in support of state legislation that would prohibit the sale or distribution of flavored tobacco products.".
Now menthol has "just been recently developed"?
Really? Sheesh, and here I thought it had been around since at least the 60's, when I started smoking, BTW, I tried menthol as a teenager, couldn't stand the dam things, but I know it sure as hell ISN'T a "recent development".
I used to smoke one (1) cigarette per year (sometimes it was a menthol cigarette) at the age between 10 and 16. That was more than 50 years ago. At that time, it was possible to buy single cigarettes and it was a custom for some children to smoke a cigarette at the end of the school year. There was no age limit for buying cigarettes, but none of my friends and colleagues smoked regularly before the age of 18. There was absolutely no smoking in school yards, although (or maybe because!) smoking was not illegal, not even for children.
When I really started smoking, I smoked Gauloises and no more menthol cigarettes.
Menthol cigarettes were conceived in the 1920s and 1930s. The brand Kool was marketed in 1933.
I have smoked menthol for over 25 years, not because of the taste but because most people that bum smokes won't take one even when it's free. It would appear that beggars can be choosy........
I went looking on the net for flavored cigarettes. {With all this Ban-talk I am as curious as a 12 year old.}
I can't find any - only Herbal flavored cigarettes.
So now I'm smoking a cigarette while eating a Hershey Kiss, boy these chocolate cigarettes are GREAT!
I think I have a pack of Lifesavers around, (Tropical Fruit Assortment).
This is going to be FUN! /s
I need a Beer...Hey, Beer Flavored Cigarettes...WaaHoo!!!
Dr Siegel will you please explain your comments regarding menthol,as per my earlier comment and others.You have stated these as if they are fact.Can you prove them or acknowledge your use of them is based on TC rhetoric and has little basis in hard fact ?
OT, but what the hell.
Meet Jack:
http://tinyurl.com/6yembs
I can't see this story appearing on the ASH website....
Maybe this statement from PM explains the Doc's fear of letting this bill pass: "Philip Morris spokesman Bill Phelps said the bill would give the FDA authority to remove ingredients that are determined harmful to health." Or "Supporters say the bill would give the FDA authority to reduce harmful ingredients in cigarettes, require new health warnings and bar misleading labels such as "light" and "mild.""
In a rational, logical world, to me that seems like a step in the right direction if your goal is truly to "protect people." Its purpose is to determine what ingredients are harmful, reduce advertisements and educate.
However, if your goal is to punish people and BAN a product, then I can see why one would have to oppose this bill. BANNING cigarettes has become the anti's goal, therefore they must oppose this as it isn't giving them what they want.
What are the anti's gonna do once the last harmful ingredient is removed and they are left with billions of smokers smoking FDA approved cigarettes?
If it is indeed menthol that is one of those 'harmful' ingredients, then the FDA will choose to ban it, right? Perhaps the end result of a "healthy" smoke won't taste as good, but if that is all there is available I will smoke them. I enjoy smoking.
I don't see any numbers relating to how many doctors the AMA is "going against." Those eight mentioned? Is that the "overwhelming sentiment" you are referring to? Your headline is very "misleading" Doc.
Those groups just recently decided to oppose the bill. Why? Do you mean to tell me that they didn't know it was being considered years ago? So who told them, I wonder. Who whispered in their ears and possibly stuck $$$ in their pockets to oppose it? To "get onboard against this?" I have to wonder...
I can't speak for all cigarette manufacturers, but in the case of American Spirits menthol cigarettes the so-called flavorings are NOT added to the tobacco. From the American Spirits website:
"Our Menthol Light Filters use the same premium, additive-free natural tobacco and filter containing granules infused with natural menthol as our full-flavor Menthols except that we use a very porous tipping paper to give the smoke a lighter, mellower taste."
http://www.nascigs.com/PackGreen...81/
Default.aspx
Those menthol granules are in the filter, and by lightly rolling the filter between your fingers, it will generate a greater menthol taste.
"My only regret is that I quit the AMA years ago. I would have loved to send in my AMA resignation in response to this gaffe."
I'm way ahead of you there son, I never joined to begin with.
diane wrote:
"James Austin's post is right on. It was like he was reading my mind."
I was. And yes, I will sleep with you.
LOL
looks like menthol is the 'new' culprit. we've heard it all before, just change the words.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25707639/
brandz
You're right Colin, Jack's story will NEVER appear on any ASH website....or any public health website/newsletter/whatever either.
This will likely be of no interest to anyone except possibly Rose (if her) but Quercetin is a good thing to know about. Since I can't take aspirin or other NSAIDS, I find it's been useful. Aside from general inflammation, respectable studies show it's good for lungs and arteries and, among other things, prevents platelet aggregation and cholesterol oxidation:
http://www.lef.org/abstracts/
cod...n_abstracts.htm
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articl...etin-
000322.htm
http://www.supplementfacts.com/
B...onoidBookS3.htm
http://crisp.cit.nih.gov/crisp/C...957&
p_keywords=
Speaking of platelets, Doc--
remember that study that showed the nicotine in cigarettes actually countered the dreaded platelet aggregation; the more nicotine in a cigarette, the better. Keep that in mind as you and your buds contemplate lowering nicotine content.
:
:
remember that study that showed the nicotine in cigarettes actually countered the dreaded platelet aggregation; the more nicotine in a cigarette, the better. Keep that in mind as you and your buds contemplate lowering nicotine content.
Do you know what that means Walt? It means when the number of heart attacks skyrocket Smoking can't be blamed!!! We can then point the finger at TOBACCO CONTROL ADVOCATES for CAUSING the heart attacks.
You gotta love the irony......hehehehe
Walt
I am very interested, the more I find out, the more I am convinced that tobacco acts as a tonic in most people and a medicine for some.
Still no recognizable "drug" though, everything is converted into essential vitamins etc. and most of them available in tablet form in much higher doses.
( If you want formaldehyde you have to eat an apple )
Heres another
"Caffeic acid, C9H8O4 is a naturally occurring phenolic compound, (formerly called a carbolic acid), which is found in many fruits, vegetables, and herbs, including coffee, although varying in amounts depending on the plant.
Caffeic acid has been shown to act as a carcinogenic inhibitor. It is also known as an antioxidant in vitro and also in vivo."
Incidentally, I have been tying myself in knots trying to observe how I smoke, I appear to draw in smoke to the back of my throat, then exhale quickly, and inhale the cold smoke on the next breath.
I wonder,does everyone else do it that way?
I can see that it would be visually misleading for a non smoker.
""In recent years tobacco products have been developed in a variety of flavors including chocolate, vanilla, mint and fruit. "
Does anyone remember buying cigarettes with any of these flavorings?
Chocolate cigarettes? Just the thought of them would make me shudder, and I certainly wouldn't be rushing to the store to buy the other flavours either. What I remember of menthol, when I was younger, was trying one and it made me sick to my stomach. Menthol is an acquired taste in smoking, one more predominant among smokers who switched to them, than anyone starting to smoke.
Perhaps depicting smokers habits and reactions while developing countermeasures in advance, being dictated by a group of never smokers, is missing the mark yet again. If menthol was the only flavor on the market, a lot less young people would start, not more. In my case at least Menthol as a first cigarette might have been a factor which would have turned me away from smoking.
But hey, human experimentation is perfectly fine, as long as it doesn't affect the non smoking and controlled, servants of the state.
Who sells fruit flavored cigarettes? That is one flavor I have never heard of. Perhaps any statement no matter how incredible, is considered knowledge among this group, anything that sells will be repeated until it is irrefutable evedence as an argument
If only a few of them started to actually look at what is being presented and see if it actually exists, before buying in flavorings would be a non issue.
The flavorings focus, seems to have been developed with blinders on, in order to focus a racist attack against Blacks and nothing more. TC acting to suit it's own pleasure and that of its bigoted membership.
You really have to wonder how these arguments would play out if a lobby decided you could eliminate beer drinking [even to a small proportion] if you eliminated lager beer and only allowed ale to be sold?
I can't drink scotch, however I like to drink Whiskey could you force me to stop drinking by only allowing Scotch? Or would I adapt?
The entire argument has no clothes, unless you are simply trying to make a certain demographic who are more likely to use a certain flavor uncomfortable.
Stating smoking is an addiction more severe than most of the most addictive drugs known, defeats any credibility in a statement smoking could be reduced by simply changing the flavor. Or by extension you could stop children from smoking by adjusting the flavor of a product they had never experienced.
If a person is already a smoker all you do is make them uncomfortable not with their smoking, but with those in charge of dictating what we will be allowed.
As a measure of validity we have to always measure a law with the balance; does the law serve the comfort of the people or the comfort of the state?
The FDA deal in all renditions proposed, suits an industrialized state and the most predominant favored Industries, although you could never claim it serves the comfort of the people, who should all be considered as equals and none should have rights which take away from the freedom of others.
Incidentally, I have been tying myself in knots trying to observe how I smoke, I appear to draw in smoke to the back of my throat, then exhale quickly, and inhale the cold smoke on the next breath.
I wonder,does everyone else do it that way? - Rose
That's a very interesting question. My own method is draw the tobacco smoke into my mouth without inhaling, and then open my mouth slightly as I slowly inhale. What this does is to mix the hot tobacco smoke with cool air as it's being inhaled, dropping its temperature sharply.
Hot smoke hurts. A lot. And I've consequently long had the idea that what's probably most dangerous about tobacco smoke is not so much its constituent chemicals, but its temperature. If, for example, pipe smoking is less dangerous than cigarette smoking (as used to be the consensus view 50 years ago), it may simply be because the temperature of the smoke on arrival in the mouth is a great deal less with pipes. The temperature of smoke from water pipes in shisha bars is even lower still.
If I were to do some research into smoking, this is where I'd start. I'd wire up smokers with thermocouples in their throats, and measure the temperature of inhaled tobacco smoke. There might be a very wide range of 'preferred' temperatures. I'd look particularly closely at long-lived smokers who had outlived most of their peers. I'd expect to see the long-lived smokers inhaling low temperature smoke. I might be proved wrong, of course. But that's the point of doing honest research - something that is no longer being done in agenda-driven tobacco 'research'.
I appear to draw in smoke to the back of my throat, then exhale quickly, and inhale the cold smoke on the next breath. - Rose
Actually, I don't understand your method of smoking at all, Rose. I don't understand where the "back of my throat" is. My tonsils? And when you "exhale quickly", is that through your mouth or nose? Either way, it sounds like a way of expelling smoke. And how come the smoke is "cold" when you inhale it? Do you inhale through your mouth? Has it got mixed with cool air, or has it just been sitting around so long that it has fallen to body temperature?
idlex,
I've seen studies associating drinking hot beverages with esophageal cancer, so I don't think it would be a stretch to wonder what you're thinking with tobacco smoke temps.
idlex
Someone has to do it.
Personally speaking I'd really like to find out.
It seems that we have collectively left this interesting study in the most unsuitable hands possible.
Coming face to face with their deluded opinions every day, I am painfully aware that all public health research since the 50's has been firmly based on the conviction that there is something deeply wrong with us!
Meanwhile the real benefits have been observed and will be shortly coming in tablet form, to a chemist near you.
idlex
That does sound weird doesn't it?
I don't draw it into my lungs at the first intake of breath, more like the top of my throat, its a very short, shallow breath.Having breathed out I then breathe in more deeply.
Just tried it your way, perhaps I do both?
You do realise that I am now going to spend the rest of the week trying to catch myself smoking unawares.
Rose,
I just had to check how I smoke since you asked.
I pull, inhale, savor, exhale. Sometimes I pull, inhale, pull, inhale then savor and exhale....hehehe
FWIW Rose i follow idlex in his method of smoking,ie into mouth and then inhale with additional air being taken in through my mouth.I also smoke my pipe that way .Pipe smoke can be very hot however if the tobacco is overly dry or strangely overly moist.The temperature of handrolling tobacco is also likewise affected.Premade cigarettes are dry and pretty dead anyway.With the EEC restriction on tar and nicotine,cigarettes are now force fed additional air to increase burn rate and weaken the smoke inhaled.Downside is air stokes up the burning temperature.Even max strength cigarettes now taste horrendous,tar actually smooths out the smoke.12MG Max cigs tasted far better than 10MG Max i found.Rip the filter off and you will find they taste a little smoother.Re-wrap the cigarette in a rolling paper to block the air intake through the paper and it's better still.Morons in TC have yet to realise we smokers can compensate for their ridiculous decisions.Cigarettes should have been left at delivering anything up to 30mg tar and left the decision to the smoker.The special fire safe cigarettes will cause ill health in smokers,but we all know TC only use care as an excuse,reality is they don't give an effing damn.
Rose,if you still smoke Am Spirit (?) have you tried Pueblo ? I find it far smoother and it still delivers around 50mg tar 4mg nic by weight for one of my cigarettes,quit using the 100mm plain roller though lol.
""In recent years tobacco products have been developed in a variety of flavors including chocolate, vanilla, mint and fruit. "
When Anonymous asks about cigarettes of that type of flavor, I think tobacco -products- is the key word here. Pipe tobacco has had these flavors for a while. And doesn't nicotine gum come in a wide variety of flavors?
I know people who roll their own cigarettes can choose between flavors, but I don't know what those are.
Usually the anti-tobacco groups are specific about who is selling what, but here they don't have any examples. I'm convinced that the flavorings flap is a trojan horse so people will complain it doesn't really do anything, and to be consistent we need to really do something.
So in other words they can be inconsistent and just bait someone who is looking for consistency...to give them the excuse to do even more.
Si,
I certainly do and I am still glad of that tip, and as your first tip was good I'll certainly try the second, if my tobacconist stocks it.
I am clearly smoking incorrectly, apart from the incident with the lemon balm, the smoke is considerably cooler than the coffee that goes with it, and I make sure my tobacco is dry.
We need acess to a central lab to resolve this, however as smoking has been banned in all workplaces, we can't.
You do realise that I am now going to spend the rest of the week trying to catch myself smoking unawares. - Rose
Yes, I do realise! Just last week I wrote a longish piece about how I hand roll my cigarettes. It was an immensely detailed description, all forefingers and thumbs pirouetting around balletically.
Only trouble was, it was a description of how I imagined I rolled cigarettes, not how actually rolled them. When, after completing my masterly description of the process, I actually watched my fingers they did it all bewilderingly differently. And it was very hard to catch myself rolling them. Several times, I'd say to myself, "Now, watch closely!" only to find the completed article had already appeared between my fingers, alight. In two weeks of trying, I've only been able to watch the entire process once.
It's a bit like those occasions when you're lying in bed asleep, but you also know that you're asleep. It happened to me a few nights back. I enjoyed the experience for a while, but persuaded myself to sink into deeper sleep - because I knew that in the morning I'd have to resume my onerous duties as skipper of intergalactic warp drive cruiser Xanthe VII en route to Alpha Centauri and parts adjacent.
idlex
Actually, I'm convinced that if fruit could be made with tobacco flavor, the kids would eat more of it.
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