'While Senator Kennedy was the one who apparently inserted this Philip Morris protection clause into the legislation,' (Doctor Siegel)
The Senator has been inserting himself into where he has no business for a long time so this comes as no shock.
He should be sent to the dogtrack for retirement before he could reck any other havoc upon this once decent country.
IMHO.
With the addition of 'Cloves' to the cigarette, it won't smell like tobacco.
"Are you cooking Ham?"
" No, I'm having a cigarette"
When I first started smoking I used to smoke Clove Cigarettes at the house, my parents could never figure it out [my bedroom was above the kitchen - perfect scape-goat]
OT, The Blog Article I posted two threads below and many here posted responses has a follow-up article on a different thread by the same Author 'Orac' Posted today
http://scienceblogs.com/
denialis...supercranks.php
I don't believe I have ever smoked a cigarette that was laces with cloves. Could someone tell me the difference please? Is there a more pleasant odor with it? If so, why not just add strawberries and all the whiny anti's won't have the smell to complain about?
Dr. Siegel, we have been trying to tell you that this has nothing to do about health, but rather all about money and the ability to dictate what we do. Those organizations don't give one rats you know what about your health or mine. All they want is the cash! Are you now a believer?
Diane hit the nail on the head. Teddy and the rest of his crowd want to appear to be doing something. In reality they want you all to keep smoking and keep the dollars rolling in. It appears Teddy is PM's new lap dog.
For ADULT smokers,i think it's pretty ludicrous to moan about flavoured cigarettes.Has there been scientific research conducted on clove cigarettes to prove them any more harmful ? Menthol cigarettes are reputedly said to damage the cilia more so than non menthol.To be honest i find it quite interesting to see Dr Siegel arguing the ifs and buts and seemingly attempting to manipulate a situation to continue his aggressive stance .Realistically, the two finger salute should be given to those who seek to deny adult smokers a choice.Is anyone really surprised by Kennedy's actions ?I find it remarkable that he remains a Senator at all.Birthright is more customarily condoned in a monarchy.With the threat of a $10 cigar tax hike for each cigar,it most certainly has FA to do with health.Dr Siegel ,King Canute endeavoured to command the incoming tide to stop,he had far more of a chance to succeed than your attempts to bring a tiny amount of reason to these brain dead phallus heads.
From Chappaquiddick to Philip Morris. Quite a career! The saga of Teddy is not so strange: two very famous brothers and him - one black sheep with a lust for power!
He's no model for healthy living either, in fact, he's a joke. Anyone know his address? I'll send him some slimming tablets.
Pardon me but I appear to have renamed myself "Bald" Tolstoy. Old Bald Tolstoy, what a splendid fellow! Well never mind I can be an advert for hair restorer...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/
20070...6fFz3SwegvVJRIF
Lawmakers decry FDA plans to close labs
"...Even when products are flagged by the FDA, importers have learned to game the system, investigators said. For example, the FDA relies on results obtained from private labs before clearing and releasing suspect imports, including Chinese farmed seafood. But those labs produce results driven by financial rather than scientific concerns, investigators told the subcommittee.
Investigative counsel Kevin Barstow said he was told by an unnamed FDA deputy lab director that "none of the test results he's seen are completely accurate."
"The words he used were 'not good' and 'spooky,'" Barstow told the subcommittee..."
Since I'm on a word thing today. "Spooky" is good too.
Blad,you been pulling your hair out again ?
Blad, I don't know Teddy's address but I'm sure if you just addressed it to the Kennedy Compound in Hyannisport, MA it would be delivered. I lived on Cape Cod for 11 years, everyone knows about that location........hehehehehe 
On another note, I just heard a rumor that the PA statewide ban didn't pass muster and is off the table until the next session. Amazing how Bill paints himself as all powerful in getting bans passed and his own home state defeats him. Now THAT is what I call KARMA! 
Michael;
It sounds like a pretty hypocritical stance, to pull the race card at this juncture. Public Health has been nothing but selective in their views of what constitutes racist impositions. They have research which defines groups for activism described not only by race but with percentages of each who smoke including what they smoke.They have the economic figures which also define who will be most affected by the promoted hatred and punishments to force what can only be described as a fine Aryan lifestyle, on the rest of the world.
The UN and it's agencies have provided some of the most horrific lifestyle situations ever seen and prolonged them indefinitely with self importance sustained through the suffrage of others. They maintain the killing fields through the arrogance of black mail with development funds to force nations to adhere to industry demands to surrender their natural resources and offer up their people to human experimentation. Forcing others to live by the terms of unified and corrupted new world justice systems, which heavily favor not only the large industries but those who live beyond the reach of any form of justice by birthright alone.
Public health should be more honest and live by the same arrogance they demonstrate in the impositions applied to the little people and admit what it stands for is above all else a resurgence of the eugenics movement and the same small minded ideals which empowered Hitler.
If you want to express moral outrage look within and admit what TC and public health promotes is no different than best babies contests and the Aryan brotherhoods vision of racial purity by the denormalization of others.
Sustainable development is exactly what it sounds like; permanent imposition a cog at a time, moving toward the enslavement of the non privileged class who don't measure up to the the ideals or the bigotry of a group flattering themselves with the name public health.
'Birthright is more customarily condoned in a monarchy'
But Si, they ARE American Royalty!! They can act in any manor and it is perfectly acceptable.
Of interest:
http://libertyed.org/noforce/
200...13_archive.html
~snap~
'These organizations have literally competed with each other, "cooking" false numbers, making some "facts" up completely, and deliberately misinterpreting data, to out-exaggerate other groups. What we're left with is a complete farce, with no public idea what the truth really is.'
~snip~
'Someday, when it's far too late to make any difference, we will all face the rude shock of realizing just how completely we've been bamboozled... what a thorough job of brainwashing we all suffered. When all the smokers are gone, when more of our individual rights have been obliterated, and "public health" hasn't improved, perhaps the remaining suckers will get a clue that anti-smoking was a disastrous but profitable fraud.'
.
Speaking generally I agree there's tons of self-serving horseplay going on that all parties are party to.
But while it's true that menthol cigarettes are most favored by blacks and that could be a reason it's a "flavor" (though I really have a hard time with equating menthol to, say, cherry, as being a flavor) that's given a pass for money reasons, I must protest the line of thought that somehow tobacco companies... what? created?... menthol cigarettes in response TO a cultural taste. Unless you can provide me the historical documents (secret BT memos?) that say so, it seems to me that for whatever (biological? genetic? cultural?) reason, blacks gravitated to the menthol taste that just HAPPENED TO BE in the tobacco product line. For whatever reason it was the taste blacks in general preferred. Granted, once that was established it might be that there's a degree of others just following what their peers did but that doesn't account for HOW it came to be.
I think it's more racially insensitive to assert "[these are] flavorings to addict African-Americans" when it's just what they like -- what they picked as their favorite from the available choices -- and you want to deny THEM a taste they prefer over regular flavored cigarettes -- the cigarettes WHITES apparently prefer (and won't be much imposed upon by the mere loss of cherry flavored).
So when you question the contradiction -- "but it is not acceptable to do the same thing to our white youths" -- there isn't any. The majority of whites are still left with their preferable cigarette: non-menthol and non-flavored. Might as well call that WHITE flavoring. Yet that stays and menthol goes? Who's singling out race for abuse now?
When it's down to arguing about clove and menthol (toxic menthol? carcinogenic clove?) ya gotta know we're down the rabbit hole. They're simply trying to make cigarettes less enjoyable and, as JTF intimates, even less enjoyable for blacks towards whom a kind of white liberal paternalism is apparently still in vogue.
Now you want to talk serious public health racism, let's talk about the bans on DDT in Africa which have killed multi-millions (including millions of The Children) and the bans on importation of GM food which has probably done the same.
As for clove, I had an elegant-- or at least pretentious-- aunt, who used to smoke gold-tipped Nat Sherman clove. And unless there's something the family never told me, she was a white, non-Indian. Dead now but not of any "smoking-related" disease, So the clove didn't do it.
:
"..anything that Philip Morris wants can’t be good."
That's interesting. If PM wants something, all it has to do is ask for the exact opposite, and 'health' will do its bidding.
For whatever reason it was the taste blacks in general preferred.
Is taste distasteful now? Some people prefer smoking pipes (with mostly flavored tobacco) for the taste. I used to smoke pipe BECAUSE of taste and odor, I still like the odor.
Aren't incense sticks used to enhance/change odor as well? And some contain clove, would you believe it?
Oh, by the way, why do people add ketchup, tabasco, Worcester sauce to their fried meat. Why would somebody add vinegar (an acid) or mayonnaise to a salad? Why do we need to enhance flavor by adding salt?
Ah, if living organisms were designed without those built-in sensors for odor or taste, wouldn't life be healthier? Did evolution make a mistake somewhere on the way?
OT New York congestion charges but a couple of great quotes from Bloomberg.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world...ica/
6903759.stm
Excerpts
"He said it was a disgrace. He added that it was a major setback mostly for the people who breathe the air in New York city, especially the children."
"The mayor said it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do something with someone else's money."
GreatScot
Dr Siegel,do you possess any data on menthol smokers,ie a racial/gender breakdown to confirm what is tantamount to racial provocation since this appears to be the crux of your arguement.Perhaps you could also support your arguement on clove cigarettes as well.The whole arguement about flavored cigarettes really falls down to a simple fact ,isn't it all for the children ?What you are really having to concede is that attempts to stop children from smoking is the real problem,in that TC is failing in its agenda,so anything to plug the gap to make it appear that something is being done suffices.Crap economics wouldn't you say ? Now why should a legal product,produced by a legal company,allow that company to sell whatever the market can sustain.If you can provide financial confirmation that these products are losing substantial amounts of dollars,then you arguement that they are advertising purely for children,though they cannot legally purchase a pack until they have dreamt of smoking a fag,dreamt of having some nookie,but been allowed to have their arses shot off should they join the army,such is the inequalities of the bible bashers who seem to control everything to do with age restrictions.Should you be able to provide that info Dr Siegel,i may believe you have a reasoned arguement for the sale of flavored cigarettes to be stopped.I look forward to the next logical arguement you will proffer.
benpal asks---'Oh, by the way, why do people add ketchup, tabasco, Worcester sauce to their fried meat. Why would somebody add vinegar (an acid) or mayonnaise to a salad? Why do we need to enhance flavor by adding salt?'
Because we like it. But that simple reason will no longer suffice. At all costs we MUST be protected from our own desires!!
GreatScot posts about the PipSqeak that Roared---how many children do you suppose he polluted in driving around, creating his vast wealth, and smoking before he 'awakened'? Yuk!!!
.
What's this big deal about flavor anyway? Why, for crying out loud, can't tobacco manufacturers add pepper to their cigarettes if they want to?
And what's the stuff in Indonesia got to do with it anyway? Does the FDA have regulatory powers in Indonesia?
OT - Today is the 38th Anniversary of Ted Kennedy's plunge off a bridge on Chappaquiddick.
http://www.ytedk.com/
NEEDED 22 MILLION ADDITIONAL SMOKERS.
http://www.heritage.org/Research...Care/
wm1548.cfm
~snip~
'Due to this price elasticity, policymakers will somehow need to recruit new smokers if they insist on using the tobacco tax revenue to support SCHIP at proposed funding levels over the long term. In just five years, Congress will need over 9 million new smokers. Reauthorizing the program for 2013 to 2017 would require almost 22.4 million new smokers by the end of that period.'
And the band plays on.....
.
Glister;
" What's this big deal about flavor anyway? Why, for crying out loud, can't tobacco manufacturers add pepper to their cigarettes if they want to?"
The whole premise behind the no safe cigarette on which most of the scientific hysteria rests, is also based in another well used phrase "We just don't know" When referring to what makes a cigarette so toxic and what could be done to lower that risk.
Human experimentation without informed consent is an international crime dating back to the Nuremberg trials. If "we just don't know" there is no informed consent, so any alterations could be seen as experimentation and playing with the lives of others which could have deadly effects. The experts can't say what will cause harm so they can not direct what is added or taken away without human experimentation as the tobacco companies have been allowed to do for decades without complaint.
Even the FDA walks on a slippery slope in assessing safe products when they don't have all the facts. Political science is a poor foundation for factual information which could become litigious at some point in the future.
Saying "everyone else is doing it" doesn't make it right or lawful.
The Real Lesson Of Chappaquiddick
http://news.bostonherald.com/col...931&
format=text
.
One could summarize, as we have just mapped the human genome and biological science is on the threshold of discovering what "we just don't know"
Perhaps many who fear what might be found have a reason to create the current hysteria. Treating addictions and personal medical conditions as diseases and dealing with environmental concerns through health agencies could be better understood in the operations of those agencies, as biological or real science as opposed to propaganda. The latter is preferred because if we really understood how much the public has been mislead in absolutely trusting the use of oil and chemicals in our environment as opposed to the so called deadly effects of cigarettes and other such things as the DDT fiasco we could start to see a lot of embarrassment on the horizon. When we see first hand the true usefulness of methods such as epidemiology and how they stack up against real biological science.
The foundation for a lot of what the public has been lead to believe could face a tremendous upheaval and loss of confidence, both in science and in governments who claim to have our best interests at heart without financial bias.
I just cannot believe that Kennedy has remained a senator.Is it that all of Massachusetts declines to believe the evidence ? I'm sorry but where you have a person like this in a responsible position i hope you get precisely what is coming to you.He should have no say in anything.
Si - you say that you hope "we" get precisely what is coming to us, as if MOST of us had a choice, Kennedy is a publicly elected official from ONE state, not mine, and NOT most of the other posters on this blog, thats ONE state out of fifty, and yet he is doing damage to all fifty, neat how that works eh?
I tend to note you lump all americans in the same boat occasionally, which is tantamount to saying any member of the EU is responsible for the policies of another member nation's fiasco. How does that work? Is Germany responsible for the UK's smoking bans? Your points about the man himself are valid, blaming the rest of us for his position or actions is wrong.
I read it as Si blaming the rest of Mass. (eg. Dr Siegel)
That's my take anyway.FWIW
.
To bad Mass voters were not more in tune with their New Hampshire neighbors who have an interesting State motto
"Live free or die"
I really enjoy seeing people allowed to ride a motor bike sans helmet, as a matter of "informed consent" or "personal choice" which are irrefutably the same thing despite what you may have heard.
HEY - I live in Massachusetts - I vote against him every time - give me a break-LOL.....
I can show you exactly where he partied that murderous night - the wrong way he took to get back to Edgartown [Yeah right - It's either a hard left to the boat or hard right to the desolate Dyke Bridge area at the intersection]and the whole sordid tale - Road Trip?
On Clove Cigs, they taste like Cloves, if you have some whole cloves around - try one - it tastes like that.
I didn't like them 20 or so years ago - too harsh for me. But it does smell like you are cooking a Ham
Kevin---New Hampshire used to be "Live Free or Die" until this:
http://www.boston.com/news/local...nd_restaurants/
More like live free---Smokers be Damned. ;(
.
Sunz;
The Governor who brought forward this legislation has an interesting namesake perhaps good ammunition for his opponents.
" Lynching is a form of violence, usually execution, conceived of by its perpetrators as extra judicial punishment for offenders or as a terrorist method of enforcing social domination. It is characterized by a summary procedure ignoring, bypassing, or even contrary to, the strict forms of law, notably judicial execution. Victims of lynching have generally been members of groups marginalized or vilified by society."
I found an interesting link attached to the Lynch description. The similarity to an all too familiar mindset and where it could lead. A mindset which accompanies the provoked hysteria of hatred undeniably promoted in the TC movement.
http://withoutsanctuary.org/main.html
Terrorist justice beyond the rule of law without trial, or any concern for empathy or common decency.
The relentless drive to Socialism continues...
Firms move on kids' food ads
Industry hopes to avert regulation
New York Times News Service
Published July 18, 2007
Lead in:
Trix are no longer for kids -- at least not on children's television shows. But Cocoa Puffs are another matter.
Trying to convince critics they do not need government regulation, 11 big food companies, including McDonald's Corp., Campbell Soup Co. and PepsiCo Inc., have all agreed to stop advertising products that do not meet certain nutritional standards to children under 12.
Excerpt:
"This is great public relations for the companies but it doesn't go nearly far enough," said Susan Linn, co-founder of the Boston-based group Campaign for a Commercial-Free Childhood."
URL: http://tinyurl.com/2ntulh
"Childhood?" Isn't the goal of Socialism to create a permanent condition of childhood? Children are to be conditioned to never leave, or want to leave, their dependence on their parents, the kindergarten teacher, and later "government." Big Nanny Knows Best!
"I tend to note you lump all americans in the same boat occasionally", Well anon,sometimes it rains,sometimes it pours-occasionally.Sounds like i'm addressing Jerry,but apologies if i've guessed wrong.Thank you Sunz,for your input.Yes,i am thick,but i do appreciate the US is subdivided into states.As to the EU example,Sovereignty of a member country can fall foul to the policy of the ruling body.For example maximum permissible tar/nicotine in cigarettes was set umpteen tears ago,but an extension was granted to Greece since they have always historically smoked higher tar cigarettes.They are now forced to put up with the weak and pathetic examples the rest of us have to put up with.Anyway,Sunz was spot on,since Kennedy is the Senator for Massachusetts ,i was first and foremost referring to MA.But the evidence is so overwhelming as to Kennedy's actions/inaction on that fateful day,is it accepted that it should now be forgotten about ?and that no one in the US believes Justice should occur at any time ,for example war criminals being tried 60,70 years later,or even the recent Ku Klux Klan trials taking place.Don't you find it strange anon? It may be strange but i do have friends in the US and regularly discuss events.And yes,in the state of Massachusetts.Also ,you will see the reference to the Boston Globe article,above, the reporter asks the same question-he/she i cannot remember is an American,does that make it all the more better ? Quite simply i am anti authoritarian-nationality,sexual tendency,race,is all irrelevant,i don't give a damn,anon you have a hang up which keeps suggesting i'm anti american,get with it.
BTW,one thing i will own up to,is being a European WHO LOVES SMOKING.
I just cannot believe that Kennedy has remained a senator.
Well, he’s not been caught with his pants, literally, down, or with a cigarette in his mouth (or a drink since then). So since he learned to hide all his dirty little habits and secrets that makes him better than anyone else who publically smokes, drinks and has healthy sex. So that might explain it. Also, note he just so happens to be the Senator from Dr. Siegel’s home state.
To bad Mass voters were not more in tune with their New Hampshire neighbors who have an interesting State motto
"Live free or die"
Since New Hampshire passed a state wide smoking ban, they need to ditch that state motto and find a new one. OR add “as long as you don’t smoke or do anything else someone finds offensive” to the end of that.
Lynda;
Having spent a good deal of time in New England over the years I tend to believe the ban was not produced by any support claimed as popular demand.
The one place a ban could be overturned with rigorous public enthusiasm is in the New England States, where they do love their freedom.
You would have to exclude the city of Boston proper of course, the Mecca of political science snobbery for over 200 years in spite of the perceptions produced by the tea party.
A relatively inexpensive summer promotional campaign of the local papers in the Hamptons for instance could turn this crap around overnight.
The people who visit in the summer have a lot more influence throughout the States than even the Liberal brat pack in Collyforneya.
Rod,
thankfully I am of an age that means I will not be around in 30 years to witness the fruits of our socialists labour.
I do feel for our progeny though, what a world we are creating, reducing living to existence.
To quote John the Savage:-
"But I don’t want comfort. I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness. I want sin."
GreatScot
GreatScot - Rod,
thankfully I am of an age that means I will not be around in 30 years to witness the fruits of our socialists labour.
.......
GreatScot,
Me, too.
We know that it isn't about smoking, second hand smoke, trans fats, salt, sugar, fast food and all those other evils that supposedly harm society.
We have no problem with agencies that advise us, however wrongly, of the dangers of various habits.
We do know, however, that when advice becomes coercion by the police power of the state, then there can be no freedom.
The "safety first" rule eventually leads to a form of slavery.
GreatScot - Rod,
thankfully I am of an age that means I will not be around in 30 years to witness the fruits of our socialists labour.....Rod
Count me in on that as well. I refuse to live as a slave.
I can only hope and pray I'm not around in 30 years, and I'm only 54 now.
How in the world did menthol get to be about race?
There are about 45 million smokers in the US, and 10% of them are black. Estimates vary on how many of them smoke menthols, ranging from 43 to 75%.
So, blacks who choose menthols are anywhere from 4.3 to 7.5% of the entire cigarette market.
Since menthol sales make up 25% of cigarette sales, that speaks to me that the vast majority of menthol smokers are not black.
This has to be one of the stupidest commentaries I've seen yet.
(Meaning Dr. Siegel. Not you folks.)
Regards,
Cowbell, proud smoker of Virginia Slims Ultra Light Menthols
P.S. the websites documenting the stereotypical Virgina Slim smoker are hilarious. According to them, I:
Am in my early 40s
Wear far too much makeup
Have a concealed drinking problem
Have long red nails
Wear clothes too young for me, with shoulder pads
Wear heels at work, but change into sneakers to go home
Am divorced
Well, I am two of those things. But which ones? *grin*
Long article, but be patient and you'll be rewarded.
Junkfood Science
July 18, 2007
Money changes everything
Lead in:
How do pediatricians address “obesity” in children who come into their offices? Dr. Sarah Barlow, M.D., M.P.H., and colleagues at Saint Louis University School of Public Health interviewed eight pediatricians in the St. Louis, Missouri, area and asked them to describe their experiences counseling children and their families about obesity. They wrote up the results of their interviews in the latest issue of Child: Care, Health and Development.
Not surprisingly, the pediatricians reported that their efforts to follow published guidelines and counsel about healthy eating and physical activity consistently failed to result in the children losing weight.
But that isn’t the value in this paper. Instead, it’s in the troubling private admissions these pediatricians made about how they saw the fat children and their families, and the disturbing inside look at how some doctors talk to fat children their parents. This paper also gives us a valuable take home lesson when we see an impressive list of studies.
URL: http://tinyurl.com/2sh5y5
Callous Cowbell
Well I know now you are not among the 220 dead bartenders!!!
So I'd say:
1) in early 40's
2) divorced
Callous Cowbell--
I'm guessing...Am on my early 40's and Have long red nails.
*smiles*
No, wait, those are the only two characteristics that apply to *me*. I am *so* hot! LOL!
Sunz gets the cigar! (To be fair, I used to have the nails.)
I could be one of the bartenders, Sunz. Remember the Dok predicted those are ones that *will* die. Jean Dixon-style.
I smoke menthols, can you guess my ethnic origin? You'd get different results if you used Dr. Siegel's data or the numbers I posted above to determine probability.
Similar to the morons here in Philly who filed a lawsuit a few years back. They claimed the marketing of menthols to African-Americans was a violation of their civil rights.
Try and get your head around that one.
Hi, guys.
Boy, seems bigger chunks are being carved more frequently off some of these threads all the time.
Anyway, I thought it would be sad if anybody who doesn't get the Smokers Club Newsletter had missed out on this.
http://www.thespoof.com/news/
spo...adline=s1i22147
Frankly, if they never wash and pose a health hazard, why are they permitted in restaurants and bars?
Is the Pasteur theory of germ transmission another casualty of anti science reform?
Or is it like the industry asbestos and radiation claims, whereby germs can somehow only produce harm in the presence of tobacco smoke, despite centuries of evidence and decades of more recent science proving otherwise?
Bars are now said to stink of sweat and old socks, and I suspect a slow metamorphosis into health clubs is occurring by stealth.
Soon, a gradual shift to legislated root beer may culminate in a Monsanto-produced carrot or beetroot alcohol-free beer becoming the only legal choice, with those holding up the bar counter finding weights on either end for a legally enforced 12 reps per drink.
Attendence will become obligatory, and by then, of course, only the giant chains will remain, with all dangerous drugs prohibited where Big Pharma fails to legislate their consumption: i.e., all those not produced by themselves.
Abstinence or else - it's your choice.
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