You ignorant twit, torture does nothing but harm the country. Have you ever heard of the word counterproductive?
Counterproductive...you mean as in doesn't work? Right?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/
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And we didn't "torture" we interrogated. And it worked, it saved lives, prevented attacks. So you let me know how preventing terrorist attacks is counterproductive...pretty please?
What harm is it that you speak of? Are you going to use the tired "they will just do this to our soldiers" BS line are you? I only WISH that was the case. They cut our heads off, and not to gain intel...just for shits and giggles. So if that is the side you want to be on, knock yourself out.
You put your faith in forced confessions all you want, I'll put mine in the Constitution.
Nice choice of words...let me know how preventing terrorist attacks is counterproductive...
No terrorist attack was prevented. In fact, there is not a single sliver of evidence anywhere in the history of this planet where torture has worked for anything other than forced confessions.
Ever been on the front lines? Of course not, that's why you say "they will just do it to our soldiers" is "BS." But other that that, torture helps recruit terrorists, ruins intelligence agencies credibility, damages alliances with other countries, stripes America of our moral authority, and worst of all, MAKES PROSECUTION OF REAL TERRORISTS IMPOSSIBLE! Jackass.
Like I said, counterproductive.
"No terrorist attack was prevented."
Did you not click on the link. Many attacks were prevented.
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They are not forced confessions, they are done by trained individuals. And why the hell do you want the United States Constitution to apply to combatants in a war? Combatants that even the Geneva Conventions do NOT apply to.
So you think the fact that President Obama banned EITs that any soldier potentially captured by al Qaeda will be treated with respect and will remain healthy?
"MAKES PROSECUTION OF REAL TERRORISTS IMPOSSIBLE!"
That is why it is the likes of people like you, that this war will take so much longer to win. We are fighting a WAR, and you want to screw around in the court room.
Courts did not defeat terrorism under the Clinton Administration...as a matter of fact that is when the plotting of 9/11 occurred. And you want to go back to that?
PS-Are you capable of posting once without calling names, I mean that is not very civil and could constitute torture.
I'm a grunt, we call people names as a term of endearment, sweetheart.
Now, you have to be the easiest chickenhawk I've battled yet, but since all formidable opponents put restraining orders on me...you're all I've got for now.
Where to start? Oh yeah! That link you claim as evidence(from flicker no less, LOL) is bullshit and you know it. Why so you think it took over 180 waterboarding sessions to get that info? Because the dude has a bad imagination, but a little torture will take care of that! The FBI found no proof those claims were true. For obvious reasons.
And excuse me, Tory, but you think our Constitution does not apply to "combatants in a war"? Where the hell is your discipline and honor? Oh, wait...those words confuse you.
It's people like me making the war longer? Really? You ever read Sun Tzu? That dude figured it out back in 500 BC. The dude has been confirmed by many war scholars from his time on. If you have read the Art of War...these are the words you ignored...
(II.19,20)
Treat the captives well, and care for them.
This is called "winning a battle and becoming stronger."
All the soldiers taken must be cared for with magnanimity and sincerity so that they may be used by us.
Geneva Convention? Pssst! I can up you one better...
"The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention [Against Torture]. It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today. The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called "universal jurisdiction." Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution."
-Ronald Reagan
Where are you at? Still Googling for a time in history where torture worked for something more than forced confessions? Good luck with that...
So, so tiresome you are.
Well if you are a grunt then you obviously know that there are many things above your pay grade. More knowledgeable people in different roles that I am guessing know more about the law and interrogation than you.
“Oh yeah! That link you claim as evidence(from flicker no less, LOL) is bullshit and you know it.”
That is a screen shot I took in order to make a post on the matter. You obviously do not do your research regarding the matter of interrogations. I encourage you to go back to the post I did and you can read the 5 page PDF Government document. Way to stay on top of things.
http://ci-report.blogspot.com/20...et-over-
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As for Sun Tzu, yes read it. We have given the detainees, prayer, beds, meals, medical care, all better than they were receiving. And we did “use” the ones necessary to get information to provide safety to the American public. There is a fundamental difference with how you can treat your typical enemy in war and how you can treat a group of radical Muslims that will kill you no matter how well you treat them.
As for the convention:
“torture means any act by which SEVERE pain or suffering”
That is from their definition not even the evil Bush Administration. I have been water boarded. It isn’t fun but I sure as hell would not call it severe pain. If you consider water going up your nose for a few seconds, a number of times for 5-10 minutes “severe pain and suffering” then you may be weaker than you think you are.
You consider it torture, I do not. You want to cite international law, one that our enemy did not sign on to and therefore does not apply…I instead will stick with the USC and its preamble “provide for the common defense.”
Has there been an attack on US soil since September 11th 2001?
LOL! I bet if you let me water board you I'll have you calling it torture in less than 30 seconds.
But I agree, it is not the worst we did to them. Stress positions are way more brutal. Once you contort a joint or muscle in an un-natural position for hours on end, and then release it, it causes SEVERE pain for weeks or even months on end. If it doesn't kill you that is. Eventually your kidneys just shut down.
Talk about tiresome. Were we attracted after the '93 WTC bombing? Oh yeah, we were, just not under Clinton because he kept us safe. But then your buddy "W" got in and dropped the ball...conservative philosophies made us less safe...
And guess what, when the US signs a treaty with a foreign country it is law. Period. Says so in article 6 of the Constitution. There are no exceptions and if you tried to use the "but they did not sign it" excuse in court you would be laughed at.
And by the way...those above my pay grade made it explicitly clear in training that if we mistreated prisoners we would spend the rest of our lives in Leavenworth.
"And guess what, when the US signs a treaty with a foreign country it is law."
Yes in regards to other States that have signed on to said treaty. I was not aware that al Qaeda signed on to any treaties.
As for 9/11. It was plotted during the time of Clinton. Training and entry in the US under Clinton. That train was coming down the tracks well before Bush took office. But nice try.
Nice try? Were you born on planet moron? We were safe till Bush got in office and dismantled Clinton's terrorism task force! And whudya know...9 months later we get popped.
And yes, we are still bound by the torture treaty signed by Ronald Reagan even if the country, or, "tactic" we are fighting is not a signatory there of. LOL. You got no game mdretardican. No game at all...
I have grown tired of your ill informed arguments. You keep it up with name calling, it really helps win debates (also makes you look real mature).
You can go away and post your ignorance on your own blog, and anyone here can feel free to go over there and play. It is not worth my time.
My my... Poor ole Elmo... So stupid as to call MD a "chickenhawk." Something tells me MD has more years in uniform than the "grunt" Elmo.
What a shame Elmo is so locked in his willful ignorance that the best he can do is come up with his snarky, junior high B.S.
Hey Elmo... you say waterboarding didn't get any useful information that saved lives? So why then won't Obama release the memos which Cheney claims prove they did?
You would think that if these memos prove Cheney is a liar Obie would have released them by now. It's not like Obama hasn't already released batches of similar memos now is it?
Get a life and grow a brain Elmo. You're such a moron and are too stupid to know it.
Hi Mikey!
First, there is no proof torture works. Ever. In the history of the world. A point that was proven once again when we caught Abu Zubaydah during a gun battle in Pakistan in 2002. The FBI sent in Ali Soufan and Steve Gaudin because they were the best in the world at getting al Qaeda agents to crack. Within an hour of Abu Zubaydah's arrival at the secret prison, he was revealing parts of the 9/11 plot and had identified the mastermind, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Not by water boarding him, but by using techniques you wingnuts mock as "being nice to the terrorists." Zubaydah's heath was in bad shape so they had the best doctors and surgeons sent in to fix him up because he was such a valuable source of information. But that all stopped the day Cheney sent in a CIA team and a contractor(James E. Mitchell) to start water boarding him. He clamed up tighter than Ft. Knox after that. He gave a little more less usable info, but he was overflowing with good Intel before the water boarding started.
So you see, like we've already known for thousands of years, torture does not work because it is COUNTER PRODUCTIVE. What good is it to take one step forward if it will cause one to take two more steps back? So you keep claiming that [that] one step forward proves torture works while ignoring the two steps it put our country back. Since your Hollywood education has made you so much smarter than centuries of scholarly work on the subject.
What Mike said!
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