"There's a lot of testing of characters' moral boundaries in this film, as the Joker prods them into discarding their ethics for their own benefit, to largely similar results as in the comic...with the exception of Dent, of course."

Actually, I didn't think the results were that similar to the comic (though the prodding certainly was). To me, that's what made the movie so interesting- it's one of the "deeper" things people will inevitably deny is there.

Gordon (and Batman, really) have actually commited themselves to a fairly unethical lie at the end of the film, following a series of smaller lies the characters were forced to make by the Joker throughout the film. This is the whole ideological debate, I think. Is it okay for the good guys to lie and decieve people, if it helps save the day and they eventually own up to the lie anyway? Is it still okay if they DON'T eventually own up to it? Is it okay to do the wrong thing in order to do the right thing?

You could make a good argument for either side, and the movie doesn't give you a clear answer. As much as TDK was influenced by The Killing Joke and Long Halloween and everything else, I think one of the biggest influences might be Gordon's inner monologue about Pearl Harbour in DKR.
Rohan Williams | 07.22.08 - 3:18 am | #

I loved the element of Joker's multiple choice history from TKJ coming through when he explains how he got his scars. Just made his lack of a past even more eerie.
joshnunn | Email | Homepage | 07.22.08 - 3:50 am | #

Ah, but did Harvey die, or was he just unconscious after the fall, and going to be spirited off secretly to Arkham by Gordon? His fate isn't written in stone.
Ostrakos | Email | 07.22.08 - 4:23 am | #

Brilliant movie--absolutely brilliant. In my opinion, this movie raised the bar on comic-based movies--already raised by the Spider-Man and X-men films, then shot through the roof by Iron Man--even higher.
Rich Handley | Email | Homepage | 07.22.08 - 4:54 am | #

I'm with Mr. Handley there. As much as I liked Ledger's performance, I wish people wouldn't let it distract them from the other elements - the quality of the screenplay stood out for me.

The new magic formula for superhero movies: take an experienced, mature independent filmmaker, some serious actors, give them millions of dollars, and get out of their way.
Old Bull Lee | 07.22.08 - 5:50 am | #

This story was so good that you could have keep the major storyline and presented it without the cape and clown makeup. It would ahve actually worked as a normal cop movie.

The scariest thing for me was watching the Joker skip/trot out of the hospital in broad daylight. Seeing that grotesque makeup in broad daylight against the whiteness of the nurse uniform was very very jarring. The walk, coupled with the befuddlement at the pause in the explosion was ultimate in joker-ism for me.

The entire hospital scene was the Joker defined for me. Put a gun to his head and he doesn't care. He'll put a gun to his own head, he has nothing to lose.
Dwayne "the canoe guy" | Email | Homepage | 07.22.08 - 5:56 am | #

i wish the movie had had a little more--heck any--joy in it. there's no sense of Adventure to the Batman's actions, only misery and heartbreak.

that said, its a brilliantly realized film, and if Nolan does do a Part 3, where i'm betting Batman finally retires (or reaches some other sort of concluding-type ending) then it will all seem like one giant, perfectly executed piece.

oh, and the next movie will have Catwoman. betcha.
rob! | Email | Homepage | 07.22.08 - 6:46 am | #

I really liked Bruce Wayne's appearance in Batman Begins. I liked that he didn't seem like Batman, that is after all the point of the character. Kevin Conroy explained (paraphrased) that when he voice acted Bruce and Batman he treated them as different characters, since Bruce was really the mask. Though I agree that they didn't emphasize that as much in this film, which was good, cause that wasn't needed.

I really doubt Two Face is dead. Batman didn't die from that fall, nor was he severely injured. Besides, he doesn't kill. Though I still believe Ra's Al Ghul is alive in the Nolan-verse too.. So, I might not be the best judge of that.
Rocco | Email | Homepage | 07.22.08 - 7:58 am | #

They probably touched his lashes up a smidge but yeah Nestor Carbonell's eyes really do look like that. YUM.
joe c | Email | 07.22.08 - 8:32 am | #

Well, here's my review of it:

http:// wiccabuffy.livejournal.co...204.html#cutid1

All in all, I truly think this is the best comic book movie ever made. EVER. I cried, I was so happy at how they got Harvey/Two-Face RIGHT. (Compared to Tommy Lee Jones? Eww....) And you're right -- we re-watched "Batman" and he could have saved him, but instead he died.

The end scene between Gordon & Batman (and can I say how much Gordon was MADE OF AWESOME in this film?) was great. I cried. Again.

I've seen it twice now and everyone tells me the IMAX version is even better, so I'm going to try and see that somehow, too.

I loved how the Joker kept switching the story of how he got his scars (YES, like the comics, his origin keeps changing!), how Rachel was SO MUCH BETTER than stupid Katie Holmes, how Bruce was more haunted, as you said...

Words really can't express how awesome this movie was to me. But I tried in my little review, so take a look.
Jo | Email | 07.22.08 - 8:35 am | #

Well, in Burton's Batman and Batman Returns, Bruce kills a number of thugs along the way setting them on fire and dropping them down clock towers and such, so saving Joker would have been confusing as all hell in Batman 1. It's always peculiar to me that it's the only Bat-murder most people seem to notice though.

Dark Knight was great, the action didn't work for me as well as most though and Bale didn't interest me on the same level as Downey in Iron Man, but whatever, apples and oranges. It was very very good, in a three way tie for my #1 superhero adaptation. Joker and Two-Face are, however, the greatest villain adaptations of all time, and Joker may just be my #1 movie villain period.
David Cutler | Email | 07.22.08 - 9:29 am | #

I wouldn't be surprised if the original intention was to have Harvey be dead. With the unfortunate demise of Heath Ledger, though, it's just vague enough that Two-Face could be back to take the place that Nolan originally planned for the Joker in the third film.
Rod Keith | Email | 07.22.08 - 10:42 am | #

What exactly was vague? Dent fell several stories and landed flat on his back, where he laid, with his eyes open. There was a memorial. There's no hint at all of Dent being spirited away to Arkham--this is movies, people, not comic books.
Ken Lowery | Email | Homepage | 07.22.08 - 10:47 am | #

I liked that we are introduced to the Joker and he's fully-formed. No origin story. I started to cringe when he was telling how he got the scars, then realized it was a lie later when he told a different story to Rachel.

Frankly, I see the franchise just moving on from Dent, whether he's really dead or not. They may bring him back in a minor way, but it feels like they've already said what they wanted to say with his character. Same for Joker, sadly.

The Nolans' style seems to be going for the kind of definitive/achetypical story with each villain so far, and how they affect ir reflect the main character. I'm pretty sure we'll see new antagonists next time out.

I just hope that the same creative team will be on board for a third movie. I can see the story arc and conclusion sketched out from the first two movies. I remember feeling this way after the second X-Men movie... and what a bitter, bitter experience that turned into in the end.
Mathew | Homepage | 07.22.08 - 11:25 am | #

I feel old. I can still remember the months of anticipation waiting for the 1989 Batman film to be released. Back then, you were lucky to get the barest scrap of info about the plot or the characters. (This was before the Interwebs, y'know.)
CW | 07.22.08 - 2:33 pm | #

Many highly trusted and quite intelligent friends of mine can't stop talking about how awesome this movie. I can't wait to see it, and I really,,, really hate Batmen!
poser, the | 07.22.08 - 9:17 pm | #

damn,, a typo
poser, the | 07.22.08 - 9:18 pm | #

damn, two typos,, sorry
poser, the | 07.22.08 - 9:18 pm | #

"...you were lucky to get the barest scrap of info about the plot or the characters."

Then again, that could have been because 1989 Batman has no plot and barely any characters.
Black Mage | Email | 07.23.08 - 5:29 am | #

Bruce Wayne isn't supposed to exude anything "Batman-ish" about him. He's supposed to be so opposite that no one would suspect the idiot playboy in any way. He pretends to be what Tony Starks sometimes really is.

I thought that this movie really went all out in the villain department and backward in the Batman department. Batman was stiff immobile and goofy looking here, not the Scary SUPER NINJA with Detective skills that they established in the first movie. He was so worried about armor this time where in the first one it was like he didn't plan on getting hit in the first place. He didn't do anything that a regular Cop couldn't do until the building/hostage scene. By that time they had moved into the second movie. (the first movie ended when the Joker escaped and Two face was created)
SOKO | Email | Homepage | 07.23.08 - 9:43 am | #

Ken Lowrey said:"What exactly was vague? Dent fell several stories and landed flat on his back, where he laid, with his eyes open. There was a memorial."
Ken- Dent fell about 20 feet and landed in a pile of dirt, enough to kill a man if he lands on his head, but perhaps not enough if he lands on his back. The only eye that was open was the one that had no eyelids, so that doesnt count and the other one was indeed closed. There was a very public memorial to show the citizens of Gotham that Dent was dead, but it may have been just a show because Gordon had previously faked his own death and nobody knew except for Batman. Also, the theme of 'playing things close to the chest' was repeated a few times. I wouldn't be suprised one bit if Dent wasn't dead.
Jamie D | 07.23.08 - 10:21 am | #

Not to mention Dent survived an exploding car crash turned upside down.. I think Harvey Dent is supernatural.. I mean, how else could he look so good taking a gun from a criminal in the beginning of the movie? How else could he not have gone into shock and fainted when he had half of his face burnt off? How else could he be moving around in nearly no time after such intense injuries (Come on, he wouldn't have been even that healed at that point, they would have started skin grafts before he even woke up for consent.)? A little fall from Batman (Who clearly stated threw out the movie that he wasn't going to kill.) is not going to compare to everything else he did in the movie..
Rocco | Email | Homepage | 07.23.08 - 7:06 pm | #

I finally got my thoughts together enough to post a review:
http://davinder.blogspot.com/200...ark- knight.html
Better late than never?

Great catch on Batmanuel! Hilarious. I wonder how intentional that casting was?
Davinder | Homepage | 07.26.08 - 4:52 pm | #

What the audience received was hardcore cop drama/psychological thriller/action movie with a guy dressed as Batman. That is why it worked and that is why the masses LOVE it. It's the Departed, Silence of the Lambs, and Batman rolled into one. As soon as any comic book franchise becomes too aware of it's source material and then panders to it, it becomes dog food. Spider-man 3 ???
X-men 3 ??? Superman Returns ??? After it is all said and done, if you produce and direct "remakes" of any medium or genre you pander to a very small fan base. If they make a Batman 3, I don't want to see two-face, Joker, Scarecrow, etc..... I want a compelling threat of any kind that makes for a dramatic, mature, and compelling story. Otherwise we will just get "Venom" for the sake of throwing a popular villain in for the kids.
Scanseveryonceinawhile | Email | 07.27.08 - 9:05 am | #