Miriam,
Thanks for the thoughts. A few of my own:
There is a difference between a synagogue and a private setting. It is the difference between an established congregation and an ad hoc practice. Halacha already is more lenient in the latter; a mechitza, for example, is not strictly required on an ad hoc basis (otherwise it would be hard to daven at a shiva, for example).
Instituting a practice in a congregational setting grants it a different level of permanence than doing the same privately and occasionally, or in unusual circumstances such as Simchat Torah.
Sociologically, it's far from clear to me that women's megillah readings, Talmud study or prayer groups have become part of a consensus. Some parts of the Orthodox community have embraced them enthusiastically, while others go nowhere near them. Would you invite Haredi relatives to a women's megillah reading or Talmud study group? If you did, would they attend?
The further we push such innov
(continued)
The further we push such innovations, the more of a wedge we drive between the modern and haredi communities. This may be inevitable, but that doesn't mean we need to accelerate it. Our society is fragile as it is. I'm not sure it would be a bad thing for change to take generations. The extent of change we've seen in the past generation has already been stunning.
Finally, I can't promise any updates about Yedidya, since I'm not a member and don't live in the vicinity. But I do intend to continue tracking this issue.
One more point: None of the recently "consensus" innovations you mention have affected the structure of the regular synagogue service. That may have eased their acceptance.
Yedidya is a feminist institution-more than halachik. I know of couplew where the woman will go there-but the man won't.
Tough to consider R Sperber a Posek. He is a wonderful historian and authority on the development of minhagim. FWIW, his article on Womens' Tefillah Groups ("WTG") in the Edah Journal smacked of Conservatism at its worst in its asssumption that kevod habriyos prevails or should prevail over Kvod haTzibur. IMO, there is zero difference between such simplistic and reductionist logic and permitting one to drive to shul or sitting in mixed pews because of the importance of Tefillah BTzibur.
Brizel:
Al regel Achat
Doesn't kavod habriyot override every Drabbnan?
1. The fact that there is one posek who will very reluctantly be mattir it in theory (but not in practice) does not make it halachic. Generally, one will rely on a daas yachid ONLY in shaas hadechak gadol. Not to pursue and promote political agendas.
2. Why is it necessary to promote this at all? You propose a method to 'alter the consensus', but why ought it be done? Is it necessarily true that true service of G-d and observance of Mitzvot will be enhanced by this action? Or perhaps it will have the opposite effect in validating the value of ideals and cultural mores which are (according to most Orthodox) antithetical to Torah values.
3. Even if it would be done in 10-20 shuls worldwide, this would not make a consensus, it would simply create a new movement ala' Conservative. Most likely, these folks would end up merging with UTJ types pretty soon and create a UTJ-LWMO movement...
Mykroft-I don't think that Kavod Habriyos has such wide an effect. IIRC, its power to override ("doche") is fairly limited. IIRC, isn't there a sugya right at the end of the first perek of Brachos that delineates how far and limited Kavod HaBriyos is ? I side with Dude's analysis on this issue as welll as with the statements of both RYBS and RHS which R D Sperber did not even analyze in his article.
One shavuot night-morning the Rabbi of my schul made the topic of his shiurim kavod habriot-and that was the theme with example after example where a drabonan falls by the wayside for kavod habriot. The Rabbi by the way is NOT MO. A Lakewood musmach and very much Agudah.
By the way my personal opinion-womens aliyot are not allowed-look what Jews have been doing no womens aliyot-end of story. We do not reopen in a tabula rasa issues-it has been decided as practice not to have womens aliyot or womens services at least in schul. End of story.
In my schul there is a musmach who about 25 years ago had a pulpit position. He told me the following story that some women in his schul wanted to have a "womens service". He went to the Rav-RYBS-his Rebbe. The Rav told him you can't have a women's minyan in schul. He indicated that the Rav left some wiggle room for outside of schul. Since his sheila was inside of schul-it was the end of it and didn't allow it in his schul. But apparently the Rav told him about women's services outside of schul.
BTW-my own comment Beis Yaakovs have girls prayer services in school.
Any BY worth its salt has a "chazzanit". She neither says Barchu, leads a Chazaras HaShatz nor reads the Torah. She merely reminds the audience of the end of each perek in Psukei Dzimrah.That is a far cry from the WTGs discussed in the writings of those who advocate them.
Yes I understand the chazzanit doesn't say a davar shebkedusha. But both WTG's and BY have a similar problem-in both the women by not attending a mens minyan are giving up a davar shebekedusha. The women may not have the same kiyyum as a man-but they certainly have some sort of kiyyum in being part of kahal with a davar shebekudasha.
BTW some of the biggest problems in my mind for WTG's is what is the big spiritual b enefit of WTG's that is worth giving up the davar shebekedusha.
Similar problem BY and WTG's. Of course the motivation is in general different-WTG's to great extent are following a feminist credo-BY are attempting to follow classical yehadus.
"and the first women to study Talmud changed a consensus, "
I wish people would be clearer when they talk about talmud study. The barriers are to (men) teaching women - not to talmud study for women, or talmud study groups for women.
the BY girls a) usually DONT have a chazzanit IME, they just daven together
b)don't usually have the option of a male minyan to join in with, since they daven in school, usually there are not ten men on the premises
however, the neglect of women's tefila b'tzibur is worrisome (davening with a men's tzibur). women may not have an obligation to form a minyan, but for the consensus understanding of tefila b'tzibur as a preference, not requirement, of t'fila, it's hard to distinguish between the 11th man and the first woman, once the minyan is already running. I think the women are equally obligated (or not strictly obligated) once the community has a minyan. This is insufficiently stressed, presumbably due to practical concerns, but it's where people should direct their activism IMO.
Still the BY chazzanit is not leading anything with a davar shebekedusha. Essentially except for motivation the BY and WTG's have the same problem. What is the great spiritual benefit which enable both to miss a davar shebekedusha. They would get some sort of kiyyum if they davened in a regular minyan-behind the mechitza. Obviously not mchyuyav like a man-but some sort of kiyyum. Both BY and WTG's are missing it.
In my sociological opinion the motivations are different-BY for chinuch purpose is giving up a kiyyum. WTG's in general are giving up a kiyyum for feminist reasons.
IMO these groups should only be considered when and if women are committing to 3x davening (maariv is r'shus for women but so are aliyos!) and reading mon/thurs as well as shabbos, etc.
Yes I know that we give men aliyos and let them be shat"z for yahrtzeit etc even if they don't show up daily.
but do we set up minyonim not expecting them to operate for all t'fillos?
I find it telling that there isn't much of a call for WTG 3x/day etc.
I think the idea that women are "Excluded" starts to pale when women rwith babies in diapers think of tefillah as a 3x daily requirement. This is why there is no push for these innovations on the right - and also why the more to the right you go, the less seriously any of this is taken.
i agree with you mykroft. my question isnt why By girls aren't in a minyan, b/c they are at school, but why charedi women aren't davening with a minyan during the week more often. I suppose the answer is simple practicality. But I believe that it should be more encouraged and this is where activists should direct their efforts.
And I guess anything done for a feminist reason is simply not done in Orthodoxy - or nothing done to fulfill women's spiritual desires, as opposed to men's desires to be in complete control of Jewish life. Bitter? Yes. Kehillat Yedidyah and other shuls like it represent the only way in which women like me would ever be attracted to Orthodoxy. Perhaps, Myrkoft, Steve Brizel, and Dude, you should try talking to some women who want to remain within the Orthodox community, or who want to enter into it - and moves such as those possible for Yedidayh will enable them to do so.
Anonymous: I like your 11:13 post.
I have no female children-but I assumed that certainly the larger girl schools would have 10 males on premises-but if not -why no attempt to teach women to go to Tfilah Btzibbur on time. Absent young children-why do many sleep in-come late Musaph for kiddushes etc. From a chinuch point for boys it is devastating-they act as if they feel lucky they don't have to go to minyan-rather than attempting to grab every single davar shebekudusha that is possible,
rebecca would you go to shul 3x/day for the rest of your ife?
Simple question - yes, no
Rebecca:
I know some people who go to Yedidya-frankly my post understated my cynicism about WTG and Yedidya as Orthodox. For better or worse, Halacha does not equal modern Liberalism or Modern Conservatism. Halacha runs to its own value system. Its constitution is not the same as the US constitution. I hope that more people wouild accept halacha-but halacha has its own categories which it follows.
mykroft, You're right
the by girls generally don't feel they are "missing" t'fila b'tzibur, b/c for some reason people take for granted that orthodox women don't go to shul during the week, or that they are not obligated.
It's hard for an orthodox woman to pull off going to shul during the week unless she is 80 years old and a big mitzva yiddene
We can speculate about reasons for this (Including that men might stay home so that their wives can go, when there is an opinion that women are potur from formal tfila and men are certainly mchuyav in more of the tfila). But I think that if there's a place for feminist activism, it's in the phenomenon of women not making more of an attempt to daven btzibur (halachic tzibur).
Again, I think that many orthodox women would find it a tircha to daven b'tzibur, but sometimes there's a minyan down the block, and why not encourage it more.
Same btw goes for the talk about talmud study. I don't have a problem with that one way or another, but I think the current model arises from the assumption that men will, if possible, devote many hours to learning, and women will probably lack that time for crucial years. That sociological model may be outdated - and I'm not arguing about that - but what I really question isn't why there isn't talmud study for women, I question why there aren't more serious nach yomi groups, halacha groups, etc for women. I think just about everyone has half hour/day. Why no eyn yaakov program.
It seems like a lot of the focus is on things that seem revolutionary - but there is much within reach that isn't being agitated for. It's ironic because many of the women agitating about the lack of talmud classes for women lack the skills for talmud. But they could gain those skills if they spent a few years on other pursuits for which they could easily organize study classes.
It's hard to respond to the comments on this thread, since many of them are far from grounded in the facts.
To start with, R' Sperber's article was not about women's tefillah groups, it was about aliyot for women in a minyan. Anyone who had bothered to actually read my discussion of the issues would know that. So naturally he didn't relate to R' Schachter's psak on WTGs. It's not relevant.
The derogatory comments about the motives of those seeking to expand opportunities for women are substantially loshon hara. I know many such women, and know of many others who were driven from the Orthodox community by their sense of exclusion and frustration. You may reject the legitimacy of those feelings, but they are real, and they are often not driven by ideological feminism. (Some of them are, and I do reject the validity of such motives.)
We don't follow a da'as yachid? An individual or congregation needs only to follow their own Rav. If he's alone on an issue
(continued)
We don't follow a da'as yachid? An individual or congregation needs only to follow their own Rav. If he's alone on an issue, so be it.
R' Sperber doesn't call himself a posek. Again, if you'd read my posts, you'd know that already.
Why blather about these issues ignorantly when you could easily have followed Miriam's links and know what you're talking about?
"they are often not driven by ideological feminism"
Then it is driven by ignorance. A person who understads the nature of Judaism recognizes that they are not being 'excluded' from service of G-d simply by not having an Aliya! The proper approach would be to educate these women, rather then accomodate their ignorance with spurious halacha.
"Then it is driven by ignorance. A person who understands the nature of Judaism recognizes that they are not being 'excluded' from service of G-d simply by not having an Aliya!"
The same is true for men. Would you object if certain men were barred from having aliyot? Presumably, your position would be determined solely by whether the halacha requires the exclusion, not whether the men who want aliyot are "driven by ignorance".
Similarly for women. If halacha requires their exclusion from aliyot, so be it. The proper response is to educate them. If not, however, what is wrong with permitting it?
Do you object to women making kiddush at the Shabbos table? The halacha there is unequivocal: It's allowed. But if they don't make kiddush, they're not being excluded from the service of G-d. Just from one mitzvah. So should we tell them no?
"A person who understands the nature of Judaism" recognizes that the only basis for permitting or forbidding a practice
(continued)
"A person who understands the nature of Judaism" recognizes that the only basis for permitting or forbidding a practice is halachic analysis. Rather than calling the analysis of learned rabbis "spurious" or impugning the motives of the questioners, you need to present a halachic counterargument.
I stand by my earlier posts and by the comments of Mykroft as well. IMO, there is zero diference is between a WTG and aliyot for womnen. They are both based upon a reaction to the feminist critique of halacha which RYBS rejected years ago. Moreover, the fact that a kehillah follows its rav does not detract from the fact that its rav must have a mesorah for his psak. I think that it is fair to state that RYBS stated that while men and women have spiritual equality, that does not mean that they must have the same functions.
FWIW, In KGH , many women who would never go to a WTG gather together on Simchas Torah for a siyum on Tanach. It is a far more meaningful use of their time as opposed to the spectator sport that we call watching hakafos.
Many women have study groups in Tanacha, have siyumin on Tanach for a Yarhtzeit or sponsor shiurim for women. I can't believe that such programs are not available in other communities.
When you read R Sperber's article and the footnotes, you will see much praise for the Frimmers' article which attempted to quarrel with RHS's views. There is zero discussion of either RYBS or RHS's views. IMO, it is intellectual dishonesty to merely quote one side of a discussion, as opposed to discussing the arguments raised in a logical fashion. I stand by my critique of his article.
FWIW, we have two teenaged daughters. We belong to 2 shuls. One is a smallish sized yeshiva-styled shul that is very quiet . The other shul is a YI. They attend the smaller shul with enthusiasm and get there either for Barchu for Shacharis or at least for Krias HaTorah. When we have a simcha at the YI, they stay home out of their own choice because the noise level in the women's section is intolerably noisy.
Steve,
IMO, there is zero difference between a WTG and aliyot for women.
Several of the objections to WTG do not apply to aliyot for women, since, if they are permissible, they constitute a direct participation in the public Torah reading betzibbur. Whether the remaining objections are sufficiently strong is a decision for people greater than me.
They are both based upon a reaction to the feminist critique of halacha which RYBS rejected years ago.
For most of the women I know who are interested in such things, they are based on their genuine feelings of dissatisfaction and resentment at their inability to participate fully in communal life. Whether or not that resentment is legitimate is another question, but it is real, and it is not (in most cases) ideological.
I'm all for serious shiurim for women. But why shouldn't (kal v'chomer!) the men attend a shiur on Simchat Torah rather than waste hours on hakafos? Why is that critique legitimate only regard
(continued)
I'm all for serious shiurim for women. But why shouldn't (kal v'chomer!) the men attend a shiur on Simchat Torah rather than waste hours on hakafos? Why is that critique legitimate only regarding the women?
R' Sperber mentions the Frimers' article only briefly and perfunctorily. He discusses neither the arguments for nor against WTGs, from what I see.
IMO, it is intellectual dishonesty to merely quote one side of a discussion, as opposed to discussing the arguments raised in a logical fashion.
Agreed. But R' Henkin paskened in favor of WTGs several years ago. He, at least, would have no reason to reopen the issue.
Zman Biur- WTGs and similar phenomena stem from the feminist critique in one or many fashions. I think that on Simchas Torah we demonstrate that Talmud Torah is an ongoing process via Krias HaTorah. Other than a DY shiur,a shiur for men would seem superfluous. The Hakafos that I go to end at a reasonable time.IOW,we eat dinner and lunch at a reasonable time. Yeshivos tend to let hakafos go for very long hours. As far as communal life is concerned, women teach, run much of the chesed initiatives , serve on many shul boards and on the OU board.
IMO, the resentment that you describeds is based upon the feminist critique which RYBS viewed as illegitimate, a sheer libel and ideologically based.
Zman Biur-The fact that R Sperber cited the Frimmers' article with approval in a footnote without even discussing the contrary views of RYBS and RHS is IMO intellectually dishonest. Although R Henkin "paskened in favor of WTGS several years ago", do you think that his view is in the same weight as either RYBS or RHS?
This discussion illustrates what R J Yuter hinted at in his post re R A Yuter's discussion at the Edah conference. When MO seek legitimatcy, they trot out RYBS or even RHS(on certain issues such as Zionism and the eruv in Mahattan). OTOH, when they bemoan the "move to the right", they ignore RYBS's well documented stances on WTGs and other issues, his relationships with other Gdolim and bash RHS , while relying on Poskim of lesser stature or on psakim that raise many questions as to the conclusions raised therein.
The fact that R Sperber cited the Frimmers' article with approval in a footnote without even discussing the contrary views of RYBS and RHS is IMO intellectually dishonest.
But the Frimers' article itself discusses both sides (though preferring one of them). Citing an article does not imply taking sides on the issues it discusses.
I am not qualified to compare R' Henkin and R' Schachter.
Regarding R' Soloveitchik, are you suggesting that R' Henkin's mesorah from his grandfather is not sufficient for him to rely on in differing with RYBS? Can there be only one or two valid posekim in a generation, with whom no one lesser may disagree?
You are suggesting that only the greatest posek is entitled to pasken on such issues; rabbis of lesser stature must defer to him. I'm skeptical whether halacha has ever worked like that.
BTW: Regarding "RYBS's well documented stances" - does the fact that the Rav never wrote teshuvos affect in any way the halachic potency (for lack of a better word) of his "well documented stances"?
In any case, I'm not "trotting anyone out" or seeking anyone's legitimacy. I'm trying to understand the truth. My ambivalence on this issue is real.
Zman Biur-I have read R Sperber's article and footnotes on a number of occasions. There is zero discussion therein of any opposing view. As far as your comments re RYHH and RHS,if you are saying that RYHH is a Posek with equal stature with RHS, then you should state so, at least out of intellectual honesty to readers and posters.I also disagree with your claim that "the Rav never wrote teshuvos." RYBS stated in writing his opposition to mixed pews and ecumenical dialogue. RYBS gave two shiurim, one to the RCA on Korach and another to RIETS Rabbinic alumni in 1972 and 1974 in which he expressed the statements that I quoted. These shiurim have been available from R M Nordlicht and 613.0rg for many years. Do you consider "Confrontation" a Teshuvah or do you acept R E Korn's revisionist spin on it? Anyone who considers RYBS their rebbe in any way accepts his oral and written mesorah, as opposed to just a book in written form. While RSEHenkin was a great Posek, we need more proof than
you have cited that RYHH is his Talmid Muvhak or that RYEH ever approved of WTGS. FWIW, RYSEH's views on R and marriages and divorce were all but completelty rejected in a famous Psak from RMF on this issue.
For more evidence of RYBS's actions as a Posek, albeit without a formal sefer of ShuT, see the newly released " Communications, Community and Covenant" which discusses mixed pewes, ecumenical dialogue with the RCC and many other issues in which RYBS took a very firm stand against the prevailing R and C notions in the 50s and 60s. IMO, these letters set forth RYBS's views on these issues even more clearly than any Sefer of ShuT.
"Rather than calling the analysis of learned rabbis "spurious" or impugning the motives of the questioners, you need to present a halachic counterargument."
I have.
Miriams idea to promote an action which Rav Henkinn himself has paskened cannot be done is 'spurious halacha'. To make it clear - there is NOT ONE posek who has claimed that women can get aliyos in practice. At most there is one who says that it could hypotehtically be done, but should not be. Thats it.
While a Kehilla may follow its Rav, other Kehillos have no right to pick and choose a lenient psak which is an extreme Daas Yachid in order to promote something which has no benefit to Yirat Shamayim and Avodat Hashem. One may use a Daas Yachid in shaas Hadechak and emergencies, not in order to promote agendas.
Judaism as a religion has one mandate. Avodas Hashem. A woman who believes that her Avodas Hashem is lacking because she cannot get aliyos has been sadly miseducated.
She is either driven
Cont...
She is either driven by A. Feminist ideology, B. Ignorance of how to truly serve G-d, or C. A sense that this will help her 'feel better' about Judaism.
None of the above are legitimate reasons to alter the universal practice of the entire nation based on a Daas Yachid. In fact, if the motivation is feminism or a deep rooted psychological need to be validated - it would certainly be against Torah. A shul is not the place to alter our practice to accomodate political activism or personal need. A shul is a place to worship G-d, not serve ourselves.
We dont need to fool ourselves here. Lets deal with reality.
Steve,
if you are saying that RYHH is a Posek with equal stature with RHS, then you should state so,
I'm not. I'm simply not qualified to judge.
I also disagree with your claim that "the Rav never wrote teshuvos."
Would "almost never" be better? And Confrontation is, shall we say, not entirely a conventional teshuva. Regardless, this is in part why so many of his talmidim are busy squabbling about what his "real" position was on so many issues.
Anyone who considers RYBS their rebbe in any way accepts his oral and written mesorah,
In part, I was trying to argue that there's no indication that R' YHenkin considers RYBS his rebbe; that he has a legitimate mesorah of his own independent of RYBS; and therefore he need not necessarily accept RYBS's halachic positions - however much greater in Torah RYBS may have been. I don't see why that should be so controversial.
In at least one place, R'YHenkin expresses bewilderment that RYBS is
(continued)
In at least one place, R'YHenkin expresses
bewilderment that RYBS is reportedly to have invoked tznius as the halachic basis for kevod tzibbur; he notes the lack of support for this position in the posekim. So he is apparently aware of RYBS's position.
Or do you simply assume that anyone considered MO must be a disciple of RYBS?
Dude,
I accept most of your points.
Clearly, congregations which have adopted such practices have done so with little or no support from posekim. I agree that that's highly problematic and probably unwise, with unclear long term results. I'm not convinced that it's assur, though.
Ultimately, whether or not such congregations are viewed as Orthodox may depend on whether other posekim start to come out clearly and forcefully against the practice.
Zman Biur-let's deal with each of your statements :
1) In your statement and response, you have all but made a formal equation between RHS and RYHH in the sense that RYHH's psak is entitled to be considered on this issue.
2) I stand my understanding of Confrontation. Read it , the new book and then ask RHS,R Carmy or R D Berger whether they considered it as psak or just an essay.Only those who claim that RYBS meant the opposite of what is clearly stated in writing or in a tape "squabble" as to RYBS's views. R Korn's views and R Y Greenberg's latest book are evidence of this trend.
3)What and where is the Mesorah for RYHH"s views on WTGs?
4)RYBS gave all of the Torah world and MO in particular a much needed intellectual rationale after WW2. Without RYBS, MO would have become part of the Conservative movement.Anyone who considers themselves as MO was perforce influenced by RYBS. I find it amazing that MO swathes itself in RYBS's kulas and yet ignores his many chumras .
(cont'd)
5) If you listen to the shiurim that I mentioned, you will hear that RYBS distinctly and forcefully rejected the feminist critique as sheer libel. There was zero discussion of tznius on either tape.
I think that Dude sums up my view and that of Mykroft on this issue
Rebecca- the overwhelming majority of Orthodox women have zero interest in WTGs and other issues which I call "power issues" that revolve around feminsim, gender and the rejection of spiritual equality and role differentiation. Most Orthodox women are very concerned in Tefilah on an individual basis ala Channah,and are also very active in "people issues" such as chesed, kids at risk and with special needs, singles , abuse, and shidduchim. One finds the agenda that you have articulated among the LW MO who have intellectually waved the white flag to feminists .
Rebbeca-why does Orthodoxy atttract intellectually minded persons such as Wendy Shalit amd others? Why do so many female graduates of high schools and colleges take time off from their ultimate destinations and careers to study Torah in Israel? While some of these schools have Talmud for women, the overwhelming majority don't and won't. You may think that all of these schools are pre-marital finishing schools, but they are all crowded to the roof and compete strongly for students.
Full Disclosure: I spent my Shabbosos on the UWS and in particular at Lincoln Square Syngagogue ("LSS") when LSS was in its glory under R S Riskin. LSS seems almost like a Satmar Shietbel in comparison with Kehillat Yedidyah. IIRC, even R Riskin disaproved of the practices described here an on its website as beyond the pale of MO and halacha.
R' YH Henkin did NOT "pasken in favor of WTGs." He rebutted the arguments of RHS and the other RIETS Roshei Yeshiva but withheld any approbation; see Shut Bnei Banim vol. 2 p. 43.
I think it is fair to say that a rebuttal of RHS's arguments without a psak in approval of WTGs cannot be construed as a psak in favor of WTGs.
Brizel: I basically agree with your analysis-but I believe that a difference between RYBS and RHS would be in dialogue with non Jews. Your basic point is correct-but I feel a complete understanding of RYBS would include that he originally spoke the text of Lonely Man of Faith in a Catholic Seminary in Brighton_Boston-Mass. I may be incorrect- but I have trouble seeing RHS speaking there-I could see RFS speaking there.
But certainly, the Rav's guidelines are clear in most instances.
"Many women have study groups in Tanacha, have siyumin on Tanach for a Yarhtzeit or sponsor shiurim for women. I can't believe that such programs are not available in other communities."
In most communities I've been in, the shiurim tend to be on a relatively low level, accomodating women of diverse background. I am not suggesting that no such groups exist. I'm just pointing out that there is no parallel push for women's daily, independent learning as for daf yomi.
The siyumim on tanach for yahrtzeit are usually farmed out to many, many women. Do you know of any community where a group of women make a siyum on all nach at some regular point - every year or two or three - having gone through all of it? Know a lot of wives who've done the eyn yaakov equivalent of siyum hashas as often as their husbands have made siyum?
I know isolated women in the US who do such things. I don't think there are many women in ANY community in the US, who are learning seriously b'ki
b'kius or b'iyun, outside of formal programs.
"if you are saying that RYHH is a Posek with equal stature with RHS, then you should state so,"
I'm not involved in the rest of this discussion, but I do. What i've seen from RYHH is idiosyncratic, but RHS is quite idiosyncratic in his own way and I have a lot of difficulty with his reasoning style that is completely unrelated to ideological issues. RHS is a big baki, but I find RHenkin's reasoning clearer.
I do not understand why RHS is the de facto posek you would turn to on such issues. Looking only at YU, I'd say that I'd rely on R Bleich as a posek over RHS also. However, R Bleich is undoubtedly further right and not a "MO posek."
I don't know what significance any disagreement between RYEH and RMF has. RYEH was RMF's peer, in fact older than him, and certainly entitled to disagree with him.
Brizel: "Only those who claim that RYBS meant the opposite of what is clearly stated in writing or in a tape "squabble" as to RYBS's views. R Korn's views and R Y Greenberg's latest book are evidence of this trend."
In fairness you tend to go after those who distort RYBS from the left-you tend to give a free pass to those who distort him on the right. See R. L. Kaplan on this issue. If you call R Y Greenberg Rabbi-you can call Kaplan a Rabbi he has smicha.
." I find it amazing that MO swathes itself in RYBS's kulas and yet ignores his many chumras" .
Steve Brizel your statement has a lot of truth to it but the following statement is also true: I find it amazing that many claim to be followers of RYBS-but reject his hashkafa.
BTW I believe the Rav said a similar thing bchayav about many of his talmidim.
Anonymous: “women may not have an obligation to form a minyan, but for the consensus understanding of tefila b'tzibur as a preference, not requirement, of t'fila, it's hard to distinguish between the 11th man and the first woman, once the minyan is already running. I think the women are equally obligated (or not strictly obligated) once the community has a minyan.”
The problem with your argument is that you’re trying to have it both ways. Either there is a mitzvah, and hence a kiyyum when it is performed, or else there is no mitzvah and no kiyyum. The reason why women cannot be counted in a minyan is because it is not obligatory for us to daven with a minyan. In other words, it is not a mitzvah. Therefore, although it is a very nice thing to do, doing it does not constitute kiyyum. The difference between the 11th man and the first woman in your scenario, Anonymous, becomes very clear if one man needs to leave.
Anonymous: "Yes I know that we give men aliyos and let them be shat"z for yahrtzeit etc even if they don't show up daily. but do we set up minyonim not expecting them to operate for all t'fillos? I find it telling that there isn't much of a call for WTG 3x/day etc. I think the idea that women are "Excluded" starts to pale when women with babies in diapers think of tefillah as a 3x daily requirement.”
Actually, yes. In very small communities there may be difficulty in getting a minyan for every single t’fillah, because everyone has practical demands on his time that may not always permit him to be in shul. That is certainly not a reason to not have a minyan when it is possible!
On a different level, although everything we do must be governed by halacha, we are not required to only do things which are mandated by halacha. If we can enhance our appreciation and fulfillment of mitzvot (otherwise known as hidur mitzvah), so much the better. That is why we sing so
That is why we sing some t’fillot rather than whispering them all under our breaths. That’s why we dance with the Torah between hakafot, and why we decorate our sukkot. So if women can benefit in a personal spiritual way by doing something that is not forbidden by halacha, the fact that it is not prescribed by halacha either just doesn’t convince me that it’s wrong. And on the flipside, the fact that it is not a requirement allows it to enrich a certain portion of women’s religious lives without interfering with raising children, which is the reason for women’s exemption from mitzvot asei she’hazman grama. An exemption and a prohibition, however, are not the same things.
Anonymous: It is not clear that RHS is YU's greatest talmid chacham-one can easily make the case for either R. M. Twersky or R. M. Rosensweig. Both are I guess around 15-20 years younger than RHS. But of course, I don't have the ability to rate them.
Certainly RH ZT"L could disagree with RMF ZT"L. They did respectfully eg Manhattan Eruv. RM assur-R.H differing.
One can overplay the authority of RMF ZT"L. He was universally beloved and respected. Other gdolim did not want to publicly disagree with him even when they did.
EG RMF is known for his heter of a woman being able to remarry without a get after a Conservative wedding.
I believe RYBS, RAK, RH, and RAv Yacov Kaminetsky disagreed with RMF on this issue-not permitting remarriage without a get-but I don't believe you find public challenges and kol korehs etc to RMF.
mykroft: "The women may not have the same kiyyum as a man-but they certainly have some sort of kiyyum in being part of kahal with a davar shebekudasha.
BTW some of the biggest problems in my mind for WTG's is what is the big spiritual benefit of WTG's that is worth giving up the davar shebekedusha."
And, “WTG's in general are giving up a kiyyum for feminist reasons.”
Mykroft, see my response above to the first part of this. As for your bewilderment about the spiritual benefit of a WTG: I have been involved in WTGs as a gabbait for many years (although at this point in my life I am actually more comfortable in a minyan). I once watched an old woman, who had been committed to Torah and mitzvot all her life, have her first aliyah ever. She was in tears, completely blown away by her physical proximity to a real sefer Torah, the chance to follow along with the kri’ah straight from the klaf while holding the eitzim with her own hands, and the z’chut to say a bracha
over the entire process. She wasn’t there out of a political feminist agenda, that’s for sure. If I remember correctly, she was there for her granddaughter’s bat mitzvah. She had the privilege to watch this educated young woman interact with a Torah in an intensely personal way, a way in which I fear far too many Jewish males take completely for granted. If you make the automatic assumption that any move towards greater communal ritual involvement on the part of a woman must have an ulterior motive other than spiritual enrichment or Avodat Hashem, then you might examine your own associations with the same practices. What do you get out of having an aliyah? Does it bring you closer to Hashem?
Steve Brizel: "I think that on Simchas Torah we demonstrate that Talmud Torah is an ongoing process via Krias HaTorah. Other than a DY shiur,a shiur for men would seem superfluous."
So according to you, men's obligation of limud Torah ends with Torah she'be'al peh? They don't need to bother learning Torah she'bichtav because they have kri'ah instead? Doesn't that strike you as somewhat of a distortion?
Mycroft: “…why no attempt to teach women to go to Tfilah Btzibbur on time. Absent young children-why do many sleep in-come late Musaph for kiddushes etc. From a chinuch point for boys it is devastating-they act as if they feel lucky they don't have to go to minyan-rather than attempting to grab every single davar shebekudusha that is possible.”
Wa-ait a minute. From a chinuch point for boys it is devastating??? While girls are taught all the way through (both explicitly and implicitly) that “the show will go on” without them, that they’re not obligated to be there, that in fact any initiative on their part towards commitment to communal t’fillah will be frowned upon at best, are you seriously trying to say that the most striking negative chinuch impact of all of this is on boys??!!!
Way to go Alisha! Thanks for making the halakhic/spiritual arguments....
Thanks, Rebecca. Just as a P.S. to my last post...if you're really that concerned that female apathy is a bad influence on male motivation, which do you think is more likely to make girls, as they are growing up, eager to come to shul -- peering into the Torah from which their mother is laining and being called up to the bimah to lead ein k'elokeinu, aleinu and adon olam (even if it's only periodically, when a WTG is held)...or being told that sure, they can show up if they want, but it won't make a difference anyway?
". Either there is a mitzvah, and hence a kiyyum when it is performed, or else there is no mitzvah and no kiyyum."
There may be an obligation to form a minyan, but most understand davening in a minyan as preference, not obligation. There's no chiyuv for the individual man either. The following is an assertion, but it's incorrect AFAIK:
"The reason why women cannot be counted in a minyan is because it is not obligatory for us to daven with a minyan."
It is not obligatory for men to daven with a minyan either. For ex, vaskikin, which is also only a ma'ala of t'fila, is doche t'fila b'tzibur, which is therefore understood as a lesser preference than even vasikin.
"The difference between the 11th man and the first woman in your scenario, Anonymous, becomes very clear if one man needs to leave."
Indeed, this is a likely reason for the contemporary setup, with men thinking themselves obligated and women thinking themselves potur, when for both as individuals it is likely a preference.
"Actually, yes. In very small communities there may be difficulty in getting a minyan for every single t’fillah, because everyone has practical demands on his time that may not always permit him to be in shul. That is certainly not a reason to not have a minyan when it is possible!"
What is the parallel? The question wasn't why in small communities, women show up for shabbos. The question was why womens groups in major metropolitan areas don't seem to be thinking about WTGs as 3x/day affairs.
It seems as though the enthusiasm for such groups goes hand in hand with not thinking of tefilla b'tzibur as a 3x daily/obligation. Once that enters the picture, the demands on women suddenly seem much greater than the demands on equivalent men. If women in major metropolitan areas are the equal of men in small towns, coming together long distances to form a minyan, then maybe there is good sociological reason for the traditional setup.
"If we can enhance our appreciation and fulfillment of mitzvot (otherwise known as hidur mitzvah), so much the better."
The objective hidur mitzva though is davening with a minyan.
Those who feel it is acceptable for men to daven privately if they feel they'll have better kavana (assuming they have minimal kavana nec. to say the tefillos, can read at the speed of the tzibur etc but stay home for extra kavana) prob. shouldn't object if women opt for WTGs for better kavana either.
"An exemption and a prohibition, however, are not the same things."
actually, I don't think many people have said WTG are prohibited. The question is whether they are adviseable.
"or being told that sure, they can show up if they want, but it won't make a difference anyway?"
But they aren't told that at all. They are told that they have all the benefits of t'fila b'tzibur that a man has.
Your argument is that the positive benefits of opting out of t'fila in a halachic tzibur, listening to a halachic krias hatorah, etc - i.e. having a chance to lead the show - outweigh the concern with the benefits of t'fila b'tzibur, and I don't discount that argument - I just think you should be clear that it involves giving up hidur mitzva, as halachically defined.
"From a chinuch point for boys it is devastating???"
The man was saying that he doesn't have girls, but he sees its effect on boys.
"As for your bewilderment about the spiritual benefit of a WTG: I have been involved in WTGs as a gabbait for many years (although at this point in my life I am actually more comfortable in a minyan)."
Can you tell us what changed - why are more comfortable with a minyan than w/ WTG now?
R' YH Henkin did NOT "pasken in favor of WTGs."
I stand corrected. My apologies to R' Henkin.
bkochba, I don't have the time to respond point-by-point to you, because I didn't really have the time to write everything I did already. The answer to what changed, though, is that when I'm attending a WTG I'm usually leading some part of it, and often I'm "operations manager" of the entire kri'at hatorah segment. I just got tired. See, the problem many WTGs have is the same as the reason why they are so awe-inspiring for many women -- it's because there are still relatively few women who have all the skills and confidence necessary to independently lead any aspect of communal t'fillah. Imagine leading a "beginners" minyan where the same small group of men are called upon time after time after time to lain, daven for the amud, check that the Torah is rolled to the right place, say all the mi'she'beirach prayers, show the ropes to anyone unfamiliar with what to do when they have an aliyah, announce the page numbers, give effort to
"creating" a kol t'fillah, etc, etc
...all while there is another huge minyan upstairs or across the street where most of the tzibur is accustomed to doing any number of those things once in a while. There are some very committed people -- both men and women -- who stay committed to such a job regardless of the effect on their own kavana and sanity...and some who are holy enough that their t'fillah experience is usually enriched by these tasks. I'm simply not one of them. But I can say that right now I personally prefer to daven alone or with a minyan without detracting from all the reasons why many women prefer WTGs. (I might also, at times, very much appreciate a WTG where I am not one of the leaders.)
P.S. I also don't like that when I am in such a role, people see me as more learned than I know myself to be. I want to clarify, however, that I do not in any way regret having celebrated my bat mitzvah in a WTG -- including laining a double parsha and haftara -- nor my many subsequent years of involvement and leadership.
Sorry, Miriam, for taking your comment thread so off-topic from your post. It wasn't intentional when I started... :-/
Alisha,
You have made a number of critical errors.
First of all, there is a difference between a Minyan and a Tzibbur. A woman is always part of the Tzibbur and thus when she prays with the Tzibbur she is participating in Tefillah Betzibbur. A Tzibbur occurs once there are 10 men. Every subsequent participant (man or woman) is then equally part of the tzibbur.
A woman who is advised to skip tefillah betzibbur to participate in a role-playing, play-acting excercise of what is at its root Tefillas Yachid is being misled.
You also said:
"I once watched an old woman, who had been committed to Torah and mitzvot all her life, have her first aliyah ever. She was in tears, completely blown away by her physical proximity to a real sefer Torah, the chance to follow along with the kri’ah straight from the klaf while holding the eitzim with her own hands, and the z’chut to say a bracha over the entire process."
First of all, this was not her first 'Aliyah', it was not an
cont...
First of all, this was not her first 'Aliyah', it was not an Aliyah at all since in a WTG there is no tzibbur and thus one cannot do a formal Kerias HaTorah. What she got was a 'play-acting' Aliyah. Further, if she made a Bracha, it was a Bracha Levatala (of course she could have made her general Birchas Hatorah then which could avoid the Shem Levatalah, but that just goes to show that it was play-acting).
The fact is that the only women who feel the need for this type of activity are on the Left end of Orthodoxy and are by and large influenced by cultural values foreign to Torah. That, according to most Poskim is enough to make it Assur (see Rav Moshe on this issue).
The bottom line is that Judaism is a religion in which we worship G-d by following His will. It is not one in which we dig for shaky kulahs to alter unanimous Judaic practice in order to make ourselves feel good.
Alisha-What do you get out of a WTG that you don't get out of answering Amen and hearing Krias HaTorah in a shul?
Mykroft-We have discussed who is a talmid muvhak of RYBS previously. I see no proof that RYBS viewed a PhD as a requirement. Even his suggestions for the Smicha program in RIETS conspicuously did not mention such a sin qua non. IMO, I see RHS and RAL as the two main Talmidim Muvhakimn along with others such as R Genack, Reichman. Here's an example of RW revisionism-R Meiselman's article in Tradition . RHS's sefarim are based upon the Mesorah that he received, which did not include the philosophical training, which is why I agree that RHS would probably not speak in a RCC seminary. While others may dissagree, I do not consider his sefarim as revisionist or attempts to make RYBS "kosher" for the yeshiva world. That was attempted by R M Shurkin and R M Meieselman.
As far as the quality of womens' shiurim, AFAIk, my wife, who detests fluff and loves a rigorous text-based and yet inspiring shiur, has rarely been dissappointed with the quality of shiurim that she attends. The annual siyumim of TSBP is a high quality event with each woman saying a Dvar Torah on the sefer that she is completing.
Anonymous-your summary of the nuances and differences between RMF and RYH is correct. The only issue in which RMF was ever publicly attacked on that I recall was his psak on artifical insemination which the SR attacked him vehemently for.
At Yedidya, i've seen the instruction/disclaimer sheet for their women's torah readings, and it mentioned a number of opinions on what berakhot a woman getting an ‘alíya in such a circumstace should say. One of the opinions claimed that, while women's halakhic obligation to pray is less than men's, and therefore they can't join with men to create a minyán, 10 women can join together to form a minyán of women! Now, i'd never heard such a claim before. Any idea how it could work? (and no, "hell no it could never work, hhas veshalom" isn't what i'm looking for :-P)
I guess i could just ask someone there this shabbos, but i'll probably be at the Yemenite shul instead.
"See, the problem many WTGs have is the same as the reason why they are so awe-inspiring for many women -- it's because there are still relatively few women who have all the skills and confidence necessary to independently lead any aspect of communal t'fillah Imagine leading a "beginners" minyan where the same small group of men are called upon time after time"
Easy to do - there's seemingly a new men's minyan forming in Brooklyn every week. I think you are making a category error. Most of the things you list don't require extensive preparation or practice for those raised traditionally. "daven for the amud, check that the Torah is rolled to the right place, say all the mi'she'beirach prayers, show the ropes to anyone unfamiliar with what to do when they have an aliyah, announce the page numbers," - none of these would be difficult tasks for men familiar with shul, and shouldn't be for women familiar with shul either. For leining, you do need one bal koreh/baalat k
You do need a shat"z or two. Many men wouldn't want to sign up for those - and not all of them have good voices - but then again, we're talking about a group that insists that it WANTS to lein etc.
I take seriously that many women on the borders between conservative and othordox would prefer orthodoxy if they perceived it as more open to women, but I think that the perception that if only women had public functions they'd be more involved is largely stemming from the leftwing, where men are not particularly involved either. What you're saying is that a group of men would also find this difficult going - and that sure isn't true in charedi or RW MO society. Nor would the women, at least the musically inclined women, find anything short of leining partiularly onerous (except perhaps for the showing up). I'm not sure where you live - but if we are talking about any metropolitan area, this should be a matter of finding two or three women capable of leining and davening for
the amud, and not involve such major effort.
What I'm trying to say is that those who do have the confidence and the skills appear not to be interested, and that strikes me as important. Maybe it's just an artifact of other things that go along with more traditional/committed life - perhaps even negative correlates that desensitize women to what they are missing. It might be irrelevant, because what matters is what would speak to women who do want these groups, provided they are strictly speaking halachically permissible. But it's very striking. And I do think that at least some of this is that people who are viewing the whole thing as an "experience" rather than a a way of life tend to look at the most public "dos" as the place to start, when they are probably not. You are very certain that having an aliya is a lifechanging experience and for all I know it is - but I still find it striking that I can not think of a charedi woman who would have to be taught how to make th
the brachot for an aliya - at least not a woman of my age (30s)- and THAT training, gotten without all the fuss, strikes me as much more life-altering than the training in public leining etc.
Alisha: As bkochba wrote -I wrote about the devastating impact of women not going to schul on BOYS-for a very personal reason. I don't have any daughters, so I was commenting on personal experience that a boy could look at a woman not going to schul even though she could as stating it is something that if you don't have to you don't do. I believe it is a positive role model for women to go to schul for boys and I assume girls too. I simply don't have experience with girls.
Brizel: I wish I had expressed your question to Elisha-very well put.
Obviously RYBS did not look at a Phd as a requirement-but note with interest both of his sons-in-law had Phd's , his children do, I believe all of his siblings have/had advanced degrees beyond college.
I agree with you that RMM tried to do RW revisionism on the Rav.
RHS is much trickier-I can see your point.
cont Re RHS-it is possible that RHS being an expert in certain parts of RYBS's Mesorah and frankly not in other parts might lead him to a slightly RW revisionism. Clearly of all the people who Kaplan shows are revisionists to the Rav-RHS is the least. There is certainly a tendency for him to quote more RW than others. If I had to be chutzpah to rate the Rav at a certain point in my opinion. Rabbi Y. Greenberg would be 180 degrees off one way. Rabbi MM 70 degrees off the other way and RHS maybe 5 degrees off the same way as RMM. So even my opinion it is very mild distortions compared to the others-reason may be your reasons.
Dude -- Point taken about the difference between a minyan and a tzibur (although I'd still refer back to what I said to Anonymous about how the first woman is defined when the 10th man leaves the room). As for the rest of what you've said, though, you'll have to find something more convincing than insults to make your point. And there is no such thing as unanimous Jewish practice, unless you’re one of those who thinks that anyone less “frum” than yourself shouldn’t be classified as a Jew…in which case you’ve a lot to learn about true frumkeit.
mycroft -- I agree. I think a woman can be a positive role model for both boys and girls by going to shul regularly. I'm sorry I misunderstood what you said before.
bkochba -- I think you're misinterpreting a lot of what I said. I didn't say that there aren't enough educated women with the necessary skills and comfort to lead t'fillah who are also interested in participating in WTGs. I said that there aren't many, and that I, as one of those women, finds that it interferes with my own kavana to constantly be distracted by those responsibilities. I speak for myself, not for others.
You’re also making the (rather rash & disturbing) assumption, along with Dude, that only people who grew up in a very committed Orthodox environment are worth considering. Your response to everything I say is that it wouldn’t be so for someone “raised traditionally.” You admit that you see how a WTG might be attractive or important to someone “on the borders between conservative and orthodox,” and you claim to take that seriously, but then you turn right around and discount their perspective because it is left-wing. I tell you, that is hardly the way to attract pe
hardly the way to attract people to Orthodoxy. Again, I’m not saying that halacha should be modified for the sake of outreach. That would defeat the purpose of outreach, and negate the concept of halacha. What I’m saying is that if you approach a situation with the goal of being flexible and accommodating within the bounds of halacha, you’re going to reach a lot more people than otherwise.
Just a suggestion -- I think a number of you reading and commenting on this post might benefit from this one, and the comments that follow...but only if you read them with an open mind.
Alisha-why do you think that Ms. Shalit rejected MO for the Charedi approach? I side with both Mykroft and Dude as to their views of WTGs. Obviously, some blogs are presided over by men and women with negative views of the Orthodox world. That does not negate the positive accomplishments of a movement that was written off as dead only 50 years ago.
Zman Biur-back to your question re learning for men and women. RYBS clearly advocated that women should learn Talmud. That was the case in Maimonides and when RYBS taught the first shiur for women at SCW. The new book of letters from RYBS confirms this fact. That does not detract from the fact that men and women may have radically different levels of learning. IOW, men are obligated to learn the ins and outs of the irrelevant and relevant and that women should learn the ins and outs of those dinim that are relevant to their role as women before they can proceed to the irrelevant. The Beis HaLevi IIRC discusses this dichotomy.
Mykfroft-on the issue of RW revisionism that has been charged to RHS,IMO, R D JJS erred in a major way. RHS contrasted the views of RMS and RYBS re college study with R Boruch Ber.IOW,RMS and RYBS did not consider themselves bound by his views. Somehow, RJJS raised the issue of revisonism out of one footnote. Since RHS notes that RYBS changed his views on Zionism post Holocaust , there is simply zero way that his views of RYBS could even be considered acceptable by the Charedi world.
Mykrfoft-one last point- I would certainly agree with your views of RM Twersky and RMR. Yet, R M Willig cannot be discarded lightly as a Posek . RMW drafted a pre nuptial agreement that RZN Goldberg and ROY approved of and which all of the RIETS RY believe should be used by all couples.
"there is no such thing as unanimous Jewish practice"
For all of recorded history, women never got Aliyot and women never had prayer groups in which standard Tefillah betzibur was mimicked. Ever. Anywhere.
Thus, unanimous.
"unless you’re one of those who thinks that anyone less “frum” than yourself shouldn’t be classified as a Jew…in which case you’ve a lot to learn about true frumkeit."
Straw man and irrelevent to the point.
The fact is that from a halachic standpoint a WTG is play-acting. It is Tefillas Yachid dressed up as Tefillah betzibur complete with a fake Kerias HaTorah, Aliyot and all. This is not meant as an insult, but a blunt fact. The only question is why people are engaging in play-act Judaism when there is so much else to be achieved. The answer is self-evident to all but those who wish to deny reality.
Alisa-I am not quite sure of your query re TSBP and TSBicSav ( TSBS). While Rambam includes Chumash and Mishnah within the basic obligation of Talmud Torah, Rabbeinu Tam states that we even learn TBSS via our learning of TSBP. Although Rabbeinnu Tam's opinion is popular, especially in the Charedi world where Chumash as a cheftza of Talmud Torah seemingly loses importance as soon a son opens his first Gemara, the Rambam's statement seemingly applies to most men who are hardly on the level of Rabbeinu Tam.Men seem to forget that Snayim Mikra vEchad Targum is a halacha, as opposed to a minhag.
"I didn't say that there aren't enough educated women with the necessary skills and comfort to lead t'fillah who are also interested in participating in WTGs. I said that there aren't many"
I got that part. You obviously had a group. Yet you are talking about misheberachs, keeping up with the page in siddur/machzor, rolling the torah, making the brachot properly as duties for which many of the women who are going to these groups find novel and hard to assimilate.
"You’re also making the (rather rash & disturbing) assumption, along with Dude, that only people who grew up in a very committed Orthodox environment are worth considering. Your response to everything I say is that it wouldn’t be so for someone “raised traditionally.”"
But this is a distortion of the point I made. I am not saying that the impact on women raised traditionally would be different, therefore let's not care how eg aliyot affect women not raised traditionally. I'm saying that occasional aliyot, o
occasional communal tefilla, don't appear to affect the men or women as much as you say - it doesn't lead, for example, to great familiarity with ritual, for the men either. I didn't say or imply that those "not raised traditionally" are not worth considering - I am asking if they are really best served with aliyot, WTGs, and the like, as a route to leading them to greater involvement, or if there are not many other things that would be more life altering than the rituals they are focused on.
I do not see that men with sporadic attendence at shul who get aliyot are any more likely than their wives who don't get aliyot to get the reading skills they need to keep up with the siddur/machzor without the page being announced. Occasional aliyot seem to be a failure in that regard. Whether they'd enhance the experience of the more observant is an open question, beause the more observant don't seem to be agitating for them. Whether they'd have a unique impact on women t
that they don't have on men who attend shul occasionally is also an open question. One possibility is that they are largely "Feel good" experiences that don't have the advertised effects. Another possibility is that they do have effect, but not nearly as great as touted, and that other experiences would have more halachic significance and have more impact, and that therefore this is not the place to begin when looking for ways to deepen women's connection to Judaism.
"but then you turn right around and discount their perspective because it is left-wing."
I didn't discount the perspective *BECAUSE* it's left wing. I observed that It IS left wing, and that agitation for women's involvement is correlated with lower observance among women and men.
This leads me to wonder if - considering that the purpose is spiritual connection to Judaism - whether aliyot, WTGs and the like are the best way to get women involved, or a better starting point are more consistent experiences. Because some of what might work to connect and involve people isn't revolutionary or empowering or dramatic, but seems to work, if spiritual connection to and investment in Judaism and shmirat mitzvot are the goal.
" Just a suggestion -- I think a number of you reading and commenting on this post might benefit from this one, and the comments that follow...but only if you read them with an open mind."
I don't know who you are directing this at, but a little less emotionalism, and a little more careful reading on your part, with an open mind, and you might find that there is less dismissal than you have been supposing.
One detail that most of you are completly missing. This post was orginally about Mixed Kriya. It's about the way daveing is done at Shira Chadasha in Jerusalem, and Darchei Noam in NYC. As I'm in NYC, i"m only really familar w/ Darchei Noam. Sorry foks.
None of this relates to WTG. They are a nonissue. They aren't minyanim. No one is trying to claim they are, in recent memory. No one says they can say all the nice stuff that the guys over in the minyan can say. It's about mixed torah reading. And, just for you folks out there that aren't familar w/ it... Men get the first 2 Aliyot, and I think the 3rd. (Kohen, Levi, Yisrael) After that.. it can go either way. Out here, they know ahead of time, so there is no talking between the mechitza. A woman reads for a woman, a man for a man. It may be different elsewhere, but this allows the mechitza issue to be dealt with. Torah's in front of the mechitza, people stay behind.
The article, (and what I've learned
The article, (and what I've learned) has said flat out that Kol Issha isn't a major concern here, as both Rabbi's agreeded on that point.
That leaves the Kavod haTzibur issue open. How do you avoid embarrasing the guys who don't know how to read Torah.
A) I don't know how to lein. I'm not musical.. I've got enough learning disabilities that to learn that would be a major problem.. but ask me how to fix your computer I'm not particullarly embarrased these days when I get Kohen aliya and don't lein for myself. There is some sociatal drift. However, that's not a factor in Halacha.
B) Form a new tzibbur based on the concepts of mixed kriya. I beleive this is the path that DN & SH took. They are, however, relying on Mendel Shapiro's article.
C) Have the mixed kriya happen in another area, with it's own reading, seperate from the main minyan. Only those that want to go, go. No Tzibbur, since it's not an estabilished thing. I could find sources,
I could find sources, but it's the psak that R. David Weiss Halivni used for KOE in NYC. I'm sure I'm not covering this completly, so be warned. There was a stipulation attached to allowing the mixed readings - they were to only occur on certain occasions, including Gomel, childbirth, bar/bat mitzvah, weddings, and maybe one other. It was also given with a suggestion that in the future, it should be asked again, for a more frequent occurance. This was the only way it was allowable for an existing Kehilla/ Tzibbur to have a mixed reading, in his mind.
As an aside, this was probably the first psak given on this topic, for an actual shul, from an actual rabbi. Yeddidyah would be the first that considers itself actually orthodox, but KOE considers itself halachik, and postdenominational. They're in the process of determining their future, with the departure of R. Halivni from his position at the shul due to his sabbatical in Israel.
Steve Brizel: "Obviously, some blogs are presided over by men and women with negative views of the Orthodox world. That does not negate the positive accomplishments of a movement that was written off as dead only 50 years ago."
I'm not sure which blogs you're referring to here -- certainly not the one I referred you to. And I would never negate the accomplishments of Orthodoxy. I don't see what place that comment even has in this conversation.
As for what you said about men and women learning Talmud, the priority order you assign for women seems the most reasonable for men, too. Shouldn't everyone learn the dinim that are applicable to themselves first?
Sorry, the Anonymous comment just above was me.
bkochba -- "I do not see that men with sporadic attendence at shul who get aliyot are any more likely than their wives who don't get aliyot to get the reading skills they need to keep up with the siddur/machzor without the page being announced...Whether they'd have a unique impact on women that they don't have on men who attend shul occasionally is also an open question."
I think I can help you with that. See, men who have a regular minyan available to them but only attend sporadically demonstrate that they are only somewhat committed to being there and participating. Women who feel more comfortable in a WTG, who attend a regular minyan sometimes but attend every single service that their WTG holds (which is necessarily much less frequent) are likely much more committed to the learning process. I personally have seen (and assisted) several women who improved their skills in Hebrew reading, davening and laining precisely because of their involvement in our WTG.
Alisha-obviously men should also learn Halacha LMaaseh. FWIW, I just saw an ad that quoted R Elyashiv as urging men to learn Halacha Lmaaseh. RHS also advised many to learn Halacha LMaaseh if you can't learn or don't have the time to do Daf Yomi.
Alisha-I read the blogs that you referred us to.They defended Tova Mirvis and disparaged Wendy Shalit. My point remains-There are many lost souls out thee who have blogs that offer a critique of one or more aspects of contemporary Orthodox life. One of the underlining characteristics of those blogs is a rebellion against a RW catcheism that poses as Torah Judaism and a marked lack of exposure to the richness of Torah, whether in Tanach, Parshanut, TSBP or Halacha. I emphathize with anyone who has rebelled against "my way or the highway" . We need more electicism in Machshavah, but not at the expense of Halacha. Imay have stated this elsewhere, but I can tell how eclectic a person's machshavah is by looking at their library.
Alisha-Here is a simple test for gauging a person's library-all ArtScroll or does it have a range from R Shach and the Satmar Rav to RYBS and Rav Kook Zicronam Livrach ? The latter is a sign of an independent thinker.
Matthew-sorry to burst your bubble, but who and where is R Mendel Shapiro or R Halivni-Weiss considered a Posek or Gadol ?
bkochba -- "Because some of what might work to connect and involve people isn't revolutionary or empowering or dramatic, but seems to work, if spiritual connection to and investment in Judaism and shmirat mitzvot are the goal."
You're right. There are many other ways and means of sparking people's neshamot. I'm hardly recommending WTGs as a primary means of outreach. I'm also not suggesting that their primary constituency is or should be previously non-observant Jews. What you need to consider is that there are many women, both those brought up in halachic environments and not, who are already very committed to and invested in Judaism and shmirat mitzvot, but who nevertheless run into an emotional and intellectual barrier when they enter an Orthodox shul. To many women (and I'm not saying I'm one of them although I understand the feeling), it is an affront to be told to sit behind a wall and watch and listen, but not to make a sound. In my experience, these are most
In my experience, these are most frequently not women whose first introduction to Orthodoxy is through a WTG. Rather, WTGs were founded to give women who are already committed to halacha an outlet of communal ritual expression without compromising halacha to do it.
Matthew is right. This post was not about WTG, it was about women having aliyot in a regular minyan. I won't comment on that practice because I have not learned the issues involved. I'll point out, though, that I've talked so much about WTG here because the two practices were associated and even equated early in this thread, which strikes me as very ironic because as I understood it, WTGs were initially formed as a much more halachically acceptable solution than mixed kri'ah!
Steve -- I think you missed the reason I referred you to that other blog (only one by the way, and especially the comments to that post). I wasn't saying you should pick apart each person's hashkafa based on the textual sources they use or the poskim they rely upon. I was pointing more to the analysis of what aspects of a person's behavior cause them to exemplify "Orthodoxy Done Right." I wanted to mention, within the context of this thread, that some people tend to forget that Judaism is composed of both laws and people. While the people without the laws have lost the essence of Judaism, focusing on the laws without noting their impact on people does quite the same, IMO. (see next...)
To quote my own comment to the ODR post, "bottom line, it's about projecting, through your behavior, that mitzvot ben adam l'chavero (commandments to be performed by one human to/for another) are every bit as important as mitzvot ben adam l'makom (commandments to be performed by a human to/for G-d). In other words, it's about respecting all of G-d's creations as much as you respect Judaism itself."
And so we come full circle to what several people mentioned in the beginning of this conversation: k'vod habriot.
And now, I am signing off. I am not reading any more of this thread, and I am not writing any more. I've said enough. Kol tuv.
ALisha-BTW, I read the comments and added a few of my own re my thoughts on that issue.How does opposing WTGs fit into any transgression of a Mitzvah Bein Adam LChavero?
"What you need to consider is that there are many women, both those brought up in halachic environments and not, who are already very committed to and invested in Judaism and shmirat mitzvot, but who nevertheless run into an emotional and intellectual barrier when they enter an Orthodox shul."
This is exactly what I was considering. These are all women who would not find it a strain to make birkat hatora, a mishaberach, daven aloud for the amud. They've presumably been doing this all their life, but just are turned off by the traditional shul structure. Yet you can't find enough women to do these things, and are doing them yourself.
Your idealized picture is of committed orthodox women who are unhappy in traditional male dominated shul. In actuality, the group is composed largely of beginners and/or very marginally committed women. Women who have trouble with the basics of weekly tefila are not davening at home either.
OK, so I lied. I came back, even though I shouldn't have. Sigh...
Steve -- I'm not talking about any specific transgression. I'm talking about holding a general attitude of respect and compassion...as opposed to not. (And I'm not directing this specifically at you, but at the overall atmosphere of the comments on this post.) All I'm saying is that one can believe that WTGs are not appropriate, and therefore not attend them nor encourage others to attend them, nor support shuls that permit them, without deriding the motivation of those who participate and feel that they benefit from them. It's one thing to criticize a controversial practice on a purely halachic basis (which I have seen here) and entirely another matter to impugn the intentions and general religious commitment of those who practice it (which I have also seen here). That's the only reason I brought it up.
Is the obviously marginal committment of the nonbeginners who attend your group due to their just having progressively turned off by male-dominated shuls? I am skeptical. The tasks you describe, with the exception of leyning, can all be done even by someone who rarely attends shul, provided they read Hebrew text even semiregularly. But at any rate, even if it were so, the experience doesn't seem to have led to greater involvement, because I note that the other women apparently didn't gradually gain the skills necessary to relieve you of your duties, so that you wouldn't have to run the show alone.
"which strikes me as very ironic because as I understood it, WTGs were initially formed as a much more halachically acceptable solution than mixed kri'ah!"
The issue of aliyot became garbled, b/c you brought up aliyot in WTGs.
I don't why you think WTGs are an alternative to mixed kri'ah - they are a preferable alternative to mixed tefila.
The aliyot at WTGs for women have some obvious problems - for ex, the women are making birkas hatorah presumably after ahava raba, not before, right? And for what purpose - there is no kriah b'tzibur anyway. They are also the creation of an entirely new ritual - a non kri'ah b'tzibur ritual - that mimics what goes on in kriah b'tzibur.
The aliyot in a regular shul with mechitza at least have basis in principle; the issues are elsewhere (change in ritual, kovod hatzibbur etc). I could see preferring the new aliyot, which are halachically valid as kriah (whatever the other issues) over the aliyot at WTGs, which are mimickry t
that have no halachic function other than to introduce potential bracha l'vatala.
bkochba -- Your assumptions are just plain wrong. Not everything is as black and white as you seem to think it is. The women I'm talking about, who are completely committed to Judaism and shmirat mitzvot, have mostly been so for many years, or even decades. Some of them have been so their entire lives. That does NOT mean that they would not find it a strain to make birkat hatorah, a mishebeirach, or daven for the amud. It does not even mean that they read Hebrew well enough to be able to find the page in the siddur themselves. A lot of them did not grow up observant or did but did not get a fancy Jewish day school education like I did and like I'm guessing you did as well. They may have become observant at any point in their adult lives, but did not necessarily have the opportunity to make up for all the education that they didn't already have. (see next...)
So they do what they can and try to place themselves in situations which are most comfortable, most welcoming, most spiritually inspiring to them, and most appreciative of their commitment despite their inadequacies. To many, WTGs just happen to be such an environment. (And my mother just happens to be one of those women.)
And you're right. Women who have trouble with the basics of weekly t'fillah may not be davening at home, unless it's in English. They may also not be davening much in a regular minyan even when they go, if they feel intimidated or distracted or rushed, etc. But if they're so devotedly coming to WTGs, do you think, just maybe, that they're davening there?
So those are beginners, as I said.
"But if they're so devotedly coming to WTGs, do you think, just maybe, that they're davening there?"
Yes, absolutely. But I would focus on activities that would gain them the skills they would have gotten in day school and that would get them to be able to daven at home too. If you aren't doing that, you aren't succeeding. You're investing your energies in a major political battle that apparently has minimal payoff. Years and years of WTGs and observance and still difficulty davening is not a good result.
"most comfortable, most welcoming, most spiritually inspiring to them, and most appreciative of their commitment despite their inadequacies."
comfortable and welcoming, yes. Spiritualy inspiring? Maybe but where's the payoff? Many if not most baalot tshuva learn how to daven, but they aren't learning how in WTG. What you are doing ain't working.
I missed this comment:
"I think I can help you with that. See, men who have a regular minyan available to them but only attend sporadically demonstrate that they are only somewhat committed to being there and participating."
You've gone full circle now. I brought up men and said that equally committed men commit to 3x/day davening. You said that's not so - in a small town, the equivalent men would have difficulty arranging a minyan. As I said in response, committed men would not have difficulty with this, and even beginning men who are seriously committed show up daily. My vote is to ask what it takes to have the women davening daily, and so on. If the majority of the women who attend WTG were doing that, they'd be able to help you out.
Sure there are adult baalei tshuva who never entirely pick up the language skills! But these should not be the majority. And in environments where there are no WTGs and aliyot, there is better success with tefila, so something is wrong
so something is wrong with the picture you're portraying. WTGs are not having this inspiring payoff leading to greater commitment to practice, education and etc outside of WTGs. If you are serious about getting women to be comfortable with tefila, but you aren't getting the majority of the women to the point they can daven daily in Hebrew, the argument about the great spiritual payoffs of WTGs is in trouble.
The issue of motivation is relevant in this context as it is a part of the halachic question. Rabbi Moshe Feinstein specifically states as much, and the famous story of RYBS and his response to the woman who wanted to wear a Tallis reveals the same.
Motivation and consequences of ones actions on the community are both legitimate questions in matters such as these which affect public religious practice.
(A classic example of attitude in halacha is Yuhara and Mechzi KeYuhara).
Alisha-thanks for the comments. Nevertheless, I side with Dude re the role of motivation on this issue.
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