I went to one where the couple diminished their 2nd cup of wine (as we do for Pesach). They did so in recognition that their joy is incomplete until they have the legal rights and civil status of a married couple. It was an interesting ritual reinterpretation!
A double ring ceremony??? I would have walked out immediately!
Nauseous.
sounds just lovely!!! dear god have we all gone mad?
are the pictures already on onlysimchas?
At least, they didn't call it Kiddushin v Nissuin. However, let's remember-this was an attempt to provide some meaningless ceremony with zero halachic value to what Chazal understood as "Maaseh Eretz Mitzayim."
Steve's comments illustrate the real problem that the YU roshei yeshiva have with women's prayer groups and other such innovations.
Those ceremonies are all designed to provide "meaning". Good talmidim of the Rav (as well as faux talmidim) don't believe in "meaning"; like Y. Leibowitz, they only believe in Halacha.
Therefore, any act designed to connect oneself to holiness, God, or the Jewish community is ipso factso heresy.
"any act designed to connect oneself to holiness, God, or the Jewish community is ipso factso heresy."
Not quite. Lets rephrase that so it actually reflects the intent of commenters rather than the bias of Reb Yudel:
"any act designed to resemble one which connects oneself to holiness, God, or the Jewish community, but in fact is a celebration of something which Torah considers abominable is ipso factso heresy"
There. Thats better isnt it?
Irony: 'Asher Barah Adam Betzalmo' transelates as 'He who created mankind in HIS image'.
Dude-Thank you for your comment. I accept that amendment of my post, as opposed to R Yudel's.
R Yudel-check out the Sifra on "Maaseh Eretz Mitzrayim"-Mitzrayim was considered a morally decadent country because "a man would marry a man, two men would marry a woman and a woman would marry a woman." That statement and other sources prohibit such ceremonies as sanctioning what the Torah views as abominable behavior.Dude's and my comments stated the obvious-an act that purports to be a ceremony of something holy ( Kadosh or separate and unique),but which in fact celebrates an abombinable type of behavior is a meaningless and ip so facto form of behavior.
Whoops-In my last post, please note that I should have added the words "anti-halachic" after "of" and before "behavior".
Wow, Miriam, you are related to everyone! How was the singing? I've been following rehearsal progress for weeks!
The singing was beautiful...
Miriam,
It's too bad such a considerate, thoughtful, and contemplative post has yielded such ugliness in the comments section. I hope your cousin and her kalla never encounter such a lack of even the smallest attempt at compassion in their new life together.
Whether or not Judaism can sustain this unconventional challenge, if that's what you want to call it, I wish the happy couple Mazal Tov.
"It's too bad such a considerate, thoughtful, and contemplative post has yielded such ugliness in the comments section."
Yes, too bad. Boo hoo.
Steve / Dude etc; Ayn poskin min ha-aggada. What is the halachic issur???
Yevamos 76a; Even HaEzer 20:2.
Zev: "Yes, too bad. Boo hoo."
Gemara Yevamot 79a: "Jews have three qualities: generosity, humility, and compassion."
Uh huh, to be applied with discretion, not upon the practitioners of every disgusting new "lifestyle."
IMO and WADR and FWIW, as Steve says.
I don't see an exception there in the Gemara. You treat other people with compassion or you don't treat with them at all.
And please, actually do some reading on the biopsychology of sexual orientation?
And maybe find a real gay/lesbian person out there to actually talk to, instead of assuming everything convenient to your self-righteousness.
I'll also note that the Torah has nothing to say on female homosexuality at all. Even the rabbanim classify lesbian acts as a form of pritzut, not a form of gilui arayot.
That was for the folks who somehow claimed the described wedding was about a "biblical abomination".
I feel like someone should make a checklist for the proper *Jewish encounter with the strange*:
1. Al tadun et chavercha. (Take a breath and don't Judge)
2. Ad shetagia limkomo. (Talk to the stranger, attempt to understand where s/he's coming from)
3. Ubacharta bachayim. (Evaluate as it pertains to your own religious needs/growth. Make certain your know your sources.)
4. Mekabel kol adam besefer panim yafot. (If you sense a dissonance between your perception of Torah ideals and what you are encountering, continue to communicate with kindness. Express your concerns. However
5. Al tomar Kiblu da'ati. (If this does not get where you want, you may not resort to hatred, force, or ridicule.)
6. En dan yechidi ela Echad. (Be satisfied in God's powers of present/future judgement. Appreciate God's creative capacity. Do not expect to enforce your own subjective rulings within God's universe.)
I should write that down. Any thoughtful comments on it?
That smiley after "However" was actually a colon followed by a closing-parenthesis.
: )
Like that.
Alan,
Your entire thesis is very shallow. There are also statements such as:
1. Uviarta Hara MiKirbecha
2. Misanecha Hashem Esneh
Etc...
It is extremely shallow to propose that one must accept all BEHAVIORS. An act which celebrates that which Torah considers abhorent (Maaseh Eretz Mitzrayim) is itself abhorent. That does not mean that the individuals do not deserve basic human respect, but it also does not mean that extremists like you have the right to browbeat an entire religion into submission to every whim and fancy of the deviant crowd.
Sorry, but when I hear of people publicly celebrating lewd behavior (which is actually classified as z'nus regarding kehunah - see Yevamos 76a & Shabbos 65a-b) with public rejoicing and by making brachos l'vatalah, I will call a spade a spade, notwithstanding your prissy comments.
It takes some nerve to quote Chazal in support of practices that openly violate Chazal.
As for your comment that "the Torah has nothing to say on female homosexuality at all," it's wrong, as you will discover if you will trouble yourself to check the mareh makom in Shulchan Aruch I supplied.
I stand by my comments as well as those of Zev and Dude.
It is always convenient to couch small minded and provincial behavior behind religion. I wonder if some of these people are the same who spit upon agunot.
You are no better than anyone else and it is nothing more than a fallacy to cloak yourself in false robes of religiosity and holiness.
You call it deviant when two people who love each other commit themselves to each other in a public setting.
I call that bigotry, ugly, hypocrisy and and an embarrassment to Jews everywhere.
Torquemada and his ilk would be proud of this kind of behavior.
I celebrate it and encourage it.
cont...
I expect and demand better from people. What really irks me is that this attitude suggests that a heterosexual couple in which the spouses abuse each other is preferable to a loving relationship.
That is twisted logic and perverse.
Whatever.
I did not state that anyone needs to accept the *legitimacy* of actions they disagree with. What I did was propose that when encountering the strange, the proper path is to take time to consider all factors and arrive at an opinion based on careful, nuanced analysis, not visceral hatred. Opinions based on careful, nuanced analysis don't mock other human beings or categorically deny their concerns.
Re the Torah's opinion of lesbianism, the Gemara in Yevamot clearly describes lesbian activity as "pritzut ba'alma" and not as "arayot". The Rambam clearly also points out that there is no intercourse and therefore no "znut" involved. Even though the Mechaber (R. Yosef Karo) disagrees, both give the punishment for the activity as "malkot mardut" -- which are used for violating a *rabbinic prohibition*, not a *Torah one*.
As for the equation found in Sifra of "ma'aseh eretz mitzrayim" with same-sex weddings, this midrash is not brought down in the Gemara at all, and is contradicted by the Talmud Bavli in Hullin 92 which states that non-Jewish marriages between men never took place.
It's clear this is both a complicated, nuanced issue, and a sensitive topic for many people (specifically those Jews who grow up with a nonstandard sexual orientation and not only have to deal with Judaism regulating it out of existance, but have to deal with the violence of individuals like yourself who refuse to see a tselem elokim in Others and treat them as animals). As Jews and as people, the women in Miriam's story deserve more than your disdain.
And since when is menschlishkeit "Extremism"? (rhetorical question)
I urge you to go out into God's wide olam and actually learn about and talk to othe beriyot who are different from you so you can truly understand internalize the reality that they exist and have their own deep concerns. You don't even have to agree with people you disagree with, just try to understand the people themselves as real. (Perhaps Rav Rapoport's book would help with that, in the realm of homosexuals.) By hiding your head from the real world you can accomplish nothing but stock up on loathing.
I think my points are done here. In your current state I haven't found anyone to talk to, just rants and catch-phrases and antipathy. I hope you work beyond that.
To Miriam: You've got an interesting blog here. I just got here from a link, maybe I'll start reading it more often.
Zev,
That is exactly the kind of insightful and intelligent remark I would expect.
Hi Jack, thanks for stopping by. I'm still done with my part of this conversation, but it was nice to see finally that I wasn't the only one trying to defend the brides.
Alan: Thanks. Please do!
Alan,
It is my pleasure.
Jack,
I just couldn't be bothered to respond to every word of your silly rant.
Besides, there's such a gulf between us - what you think is so wonderful and beautiful I look upon as an abomination. So what's the point?
Alan,
The point here is that you are basically browbeating those of us who are making a very simple and obvious point. The Torah and Judaism would frown on this behavior and consider it abominable and disgusting. This is an undeniable fact.
Your childish attacks that we somehow need to 'get out more' are idiotic. I am personally acquainted with two gay men who I get along quite well with. There is a difference between struggling with ones challenges and co-opting religious symbolism to celebrate something that is UNDENIABLY (regardless of your sophistry) frowned upon by Torah.
PS - If you read the Rambam more carefully he specifically calls Lesbianism Maaseh Eretz Mitzrayim. It isnt only the Medrash.
Alan, you wrote:
...both give the punishment for the activity as "malkot mardut" -- which are used for violating a *rabbinic prohibition*...
Malkot Mardut. And this is somehow supposed to support your assertion that we need to be more empathetic, understanding and tolerant of this type of deviant behavior?
Jack,
I just couldn't be bothered to respond to every word of your silly rant.
Besides, there's such a gulf between us - what you think is so wonderful and beautiful I look upon as an abomination. So what's the point?
Zev,
My little cub, you couldn't be bothered is code for not knowing how. It is easy to call it a silly rant, just as it is easy for me to call you an intolerant bigot.
The difference is that I actually considered a dialogue because an open mind is something that is valuable and important. You choose the path of least resistance.
I can take that in a number of ways.
1) You are conceding because you haven't the ability to defend your position.
2) You are so arrogant it doesn't occur to you that you could be wrong.
3) A combination of the two.
In the end it doesn't matter because modernity is passing you by and all you do by standing on the sidelines is further marginalize yourself.
Brother, I sleep comfortably at night because I know that there is more than one truth and I am not the only one who has a lock on it.
hmm, all very interesting and not totally comfortable.
Notwithstanding this, I picked something else up from this blog. I saw that two people (politics etc aside) that had given thought to what they were doing and wanted to give meaning to their ceremony. How many (heterosexual) couples give any thought to what happens under the chuppah? I have been to many weddings where it feels like it is the 'religious guff' that needs to be gotten out of the way before the 'real party' starts. I think we can all learn from that.
Thanks for reminding me why I'm not frum. I think.
Jack,
It's choice #2, only without the arrogant part. All the rest is just more of the rant, and really, code or not, I can't be bothered.
Zev,
I don't buy it. If you couldn't be bothered you wouldn't even respond to any of my comments.
And I don't buy that you are totally secure in your position either. If this wasn't a threat to you it would be easy to discuss.
You may imagine whatever you please; I don't mind.
Zev,
No imagination is what got you into your current mess. 
Paul and Alan Scott-The fact that the Sifra is not quoted by the Talmud in Chulin 92a does not render it inapplicable. I am sure that you are aware that the Sifra is a Medrash Halacha, as opposed to a "just" a Medrash Aggadah, in the sense that we learn Halachos, etc therefrom as opposed to a purely Aggadic text.
See also Rashi Chulin 92b s.v. sein kosvin ksuvah lzacrim- "af al pi schadin lmishcav zachor umayachadin lahem zachor ltashmishin,ain nohagin klaos rosh bmitzvah zu kol kach syictivu lahem ksuvah".IOW, even Egyptian society did not provide for a formalized marriage contract for same gender relationships.
Jack--Perhaps its because you have no point and are simply a blowhard.
Have you considered that?
B"H
Alan Scott, if you're still tuned in, thank you for the checklist. May I reproduce it on my blog? If so, how would you like me to credit it? (Feel free to answer here or anywhere on my blog -- see "Homepage" link.) Thanks again.
Kol kavod
Sure Dude,
That is exactly the case. Of course you haven't offered anything here other than a pointless insult but if calling me a blowhard makes your provincial self feel better than be my guest.
The reality is that the interpretations you follow are just that, interpretations and subject to the same problems and failings as anything else.
There are many who believe that you have taken the deviant and narrow position. So much for being a light unto all nations.
See you Shloimy.
I was there. It was beautiful. Two real people, deeply committed to each other, to Judaism, to community, family and friends. One of those moments when we see, however briefly, the reflection of God's image in human beings and in the world.
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