Why are you wasting your time even replying to SIW? He clearly has no understanding in these matters. He doesn't even realize how much he doesn't understand.
This is just another example of how, as many others have pointed out, Chabad get away with so much because of Judaism's behaviourist focus - because they do lots of Torah and mitzvot, people are very very reluctant to criticise them. It's interesting to speculate what would happen if we were living in a pre-modern era and people weren't so spooked by the consequences of modernity (assimilation, non-Orthodoxy). You'd probably find greater willingness to condemn. Compare the treatment the Sabbateans got.
SIW's been a Chabad apologist for a long time. His opinion carries very little weight or merit.
Miriam,
They only used שליט"א (may he live many long and good days)? What a bunch of wusses! REAL Meshichisten would have printed שיל"ו (may he live forever)...
CR: Just to emphasize (bec I saw this misconception on Canonist too), my point is less about the 'Yechi' and more about the fact they post a picture of an empty chair which is labelled as a picture of the rebbe.....
Hear, hear, Miriam! I couldn't agree with you more. I've been deeply troubled for some time by the Messianist strain developing unchecked in Chabad. Aside from theological considerations, it seems just plain weird.
(The sight of that little boy in photo made me sad -- how soon the brainwashing starts.)
Miriam,
Fair enough, it's wierd. It's offensive to many. It flies in the face of what has been considered "normative" belief for centures. Personally, I am alarmed that nobody in positions of authority within Lubavitch have taken strong positions against this sort of behavior.
However, I agree with Steve that it's no more than that. How is this different from Breslover's giving aliyot to Rebbe Nachman and responding "Amen" to silence? AFA a "second coming" goes, they base it on (admittedly obscure) passages in the Bavli and Rishonim that seem to allow Moshiach coming back from a prior generation. Clearly most say that the statements in question are not authoritative. Even if we assume they are, why not say they apply to Dovid HaMelech even more than to someone in our days? Nevertheless, the idea of the "second coming", as bizarre as it seems, is in our tradition. The break with X-tians (and Muslims for that matter) comes over whether or not the Torah has been superceded by a "New Covenant". All other questions are secondary.
But beliefs about the Messiah are very sensitive in Judaism and in Jewish history and for 2,000 years, belief in a second coming has been the clear dividing line between one religion (ours) and another
What trash!
The Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah while he was still alive (according to the story). What was the dividing line then?
Then, as now, Jesus was rejected because his teachings severely deviated from Jewish tradition. That has been exacerbated over time, especially by the Christian principle, instroduced by Paul, that the Mitzvot were abrogated.
The notion that, if Chabad is allowed to claim that a dead person is Moshiach, then all barriers between Christians and Jews break down, is so ridiculous that it is laughable.
I wonder why you would give credence to it.
Educate yourself a little.
>I am alarmed that nobody in positions of authority within Lubavitch have taken strong positions against this sort of behavior.
I am more alarmed that they condone it. I believe it is part of their education system. When a kindergarten teacher admonishes a child that misbehaves by saying "what would the rebbe say if he saw you" as opposed to G-d is watching, that is troubling. Or when there are young teenagers handing out moshiach pamphlets to non-jews in subways, that is the sign of there education system run amuck
There's an old joke about chabad that I heard a while ago - "the closest religion to judaism is lubavitch". I am not sure that is true any more.
When a kindergarten teacher admonishes a child that misbehaves by saying "what would the rebbe say if he saw you" as opposed to G-d is watching, that is troubling.Not sure I agree. According to this reasoning a teacher should, likewise, never say "your parents would not appreciate hearing X" but rather "G-d is watching". Since Chassidim the world over, not just Lubavitchers, view the Rebbe as their "father" this is quite a normal thing to do.
young teenagers handing out moshiach pamphlets to non-jews in subways, that is the sign of there education system run amuck.We do agree on this point.
Correction above; I should say "...Chassidim the world over, not just Lubavitchers, view THEIR respective Rebbeim as their "father"...
Just trying to avoid a confusing statement. 
(Less) confused - Perhaps the comparison to christianity is a bit extreme, but it certainly has similarities as does the Shabatai Tzvi incident. The common thread between the two however were that someone proclaimed himself the messiah (yes I know the Rebbe didn't explicitly, but he certainly was aware and tolerated it) with dire consequences.
I think we are just beginning to see the consequences of chabad. I am afraid of what chabad will evolve into over the years. They have no leader to guide them so anything goes.
Shabtai Tzvi - Makes brocho "matir issurim" while holding a piece of hazir.
The Rebbe - Makes sure everyone in the room says a proper brocho acharono after a farbrengen.
Yeah, the similarities are striking, are they not?
> The Rebbe - Makes sure everyone in the room says a proper brocho acharono after a farbrengen.
I am not comparing the Rebbe to Shabatai Tzvi. We agree that the Rebbe was a tzaddik as opposed to ST. However the movements are quite similar. SHabatai Tzvi started out as a "tzaddik" and then he and his followers went off the derech. In this instance, the Rebbe Z"L stayed on the right path. It his chassidim who have veered off the beaten path.
BTW - I presume it is a typo when you write the Rebbe "makes" sure. I am sure you mean the Rebbe "made" sure
>Not sure I agree. According to this reasoning a teacher should, likewise, never say "your parents would not appreciate hearing X" but rather "G-d is watching".
I don't mean to say that a parent or the rebbe should not be used in giving mussar. However, I think in the Lubavitch system the Rebbe has replaced G-d
I don't mean to say that a parent or the rebbe should not be used in giving mussar. However, I think in the Lubavitch system the Rebbe has replaced G-dIf that is the point you are trying to make your examples simply don't support it. Indeed, one who states that the "Rebbe has replaced G-d" is, simply, a "min". The RaMBaM is pretty unequivocal about the matter. R' Levi Bistritzky Z"L of Tzfat excommunicated someone in his community for making just that assertion (and he was nearly murdered by the individual in question). Aside from this one individual I am aware of nobody who has made the "Atzmus Ein Sof" statement.
Simply put, that is not a normative view and it is slanderous to suggest it is.
BTW - I presume it is a typo when you write the Rebbe "makes" sure. I am sure you mean the Rebbe "made" sureRead my full quote again rather than wrenching statements out of context. I say "S. T. makes....The Rebbe makes...". I think my meanings are self-evident.
The common thread between the two however were that someone proclaimed himself the messiah (yes I know the Rebbe didn't explicitly, but he certainly was aware and tolerated it) with dire consequences.
Here are three events in Jewish history.
Event #1: Jesus proclaimed himself the Messiah (I am not convinced that the details of Jesus in the NT story have any connection to reality, but, for argument's sake), led to dire consequences for the Jews.
Event #2 Shabbetai Tzvi proclaimed himself the Messiah, led to dire consequences fo the Jews.
Event #3 ? proclaims himself the Messiah, led to redemption of the Jewish people, building of the BEit Hamikdash, world peace, complete revelation of G-d's presence in the world, world being filled with the knowledge of G-d as the water fills the ocean bed.
So, my question to you is this: How is the Rebbe "proclaiming" himself to be Moshiach more similar to the #1 and #2 events than to the #3 event?
CR - I respectfully disagree. I grew up as a kid in crown heights and the mehuso V'atzmuso stuff was spewed by people. I can't really say if it was/is a majority or minority, I didn't take a poll. I also recall the Rebbe being viewed on equal par with Moshe Rabeinu.
I have heard from people (yeah I know heresay) that have dealt with the chabad educational system that the mechanchim/mechanchos make statements that would imply equality between the Rebbe and G-d.
BTW - you never responded to me if your statement "the Rebbe 'makes' sure" was a typo or that is your belief.
...the Rebbe being viewed on equal par with Moshe Rabeinu.So because the Rebbe was associated with MR (I heard the same statements) therefore the heresay of the Rebbe being associated with G-d must be true. Now who is making the "Mehuso v'Atzmuso argument between MR and G-d, eh?
you never responded to me if your statement "the Rebbe 'makes' sure" was a typo or that is your belief.I did respond but you evidently did not get the answer you hoped to get. You are now trying to play gotcha and I ain't bitin'.
I also recall the Rebbe being viewed on equal par with Moshe Rabeinu.
ER,
Do you believe that there will ever be a Tzadik who will be "on equal par (sic) with Moshe Rabbeinu."
>ER,
Do you believe that there will ever be a Tzadik who will be "on equal par (sic) with Moshe Rabbeinu."
If I recall correctly the Rambam says moshiach will be greater. However, the rebbe is not moshiach as the same rambam says that he will be living. THe Rebbe Z"l was buried and will not rise until techias hameisim. TO claim differently is to make a mockery of him.
>Now who is making the "Mehuso v'Atzmuso argument between MR and G-d, eh?
You are misreading what I wrote. Please re-read.
> I did respond but you evidently did not get the answer you hoped to get. You are now trying to play gotcha and I ain't bitin'.
I think it was a timing issue. I am not trying to get you. I just want to know what camp you are in. But by being elusive you provided the answer.
Confused -You are confusing me. In your Event #3 are you proclaimimg that the rebbe is moshiach or are you equating #1,#2 & #3?
Now who is making the "Mehuso v'Atzmuso argument between MR and G-d, eh?Just pointing out that the two arguments are not the same. And spare me the "mehuso V'atzmuso stuff was spewed by people" malarkey. As Alexander Hamilton would say "Der Oylem iz a goylem". VD"L
You are misreading what I wrote. Please re-read.
AFAIK, nobody in any position of Rabbinic authority ever made such a statement. Anyone who did, as the R' Bistritzky history shows, would have been publicly called a min and run out of town. If you know of an example to the contraryplease give us names and places.
I am not trying to get you. I just want to know what camp you are in. But by being elusive you provided the answer.Here's a secret. Actually, I was baiting YOU by using present tense both times (for consistency purposes). Predictably, you bit. Tells me that you have a bit of an agenda and are not arguing rationally. JMO
CR - As your statements indicate you are Chabad. You know as well as I do that many (if not most) people in Chabad have this belief. You just deny it to save face. Like most Chabad proclaimants you attack personally instead of trying to argue the point. I think what I have written is clear, but you obviuosly don't get it. i don't like personal attacks and I don't want to stoop down to that level, so I will no longer respond. You may respond for the "others" to see, but i am outta here.
You know as well as I do that many (if not most) people in Chabad have this belief. You just deny it to save face.Nope, sorry. I requested that you give some anecdotal evidence to counter my assertion. The best you could do was some "I heard from someone who heard that..." heresay. I know the meme you cite is popular in some circles. However, until I hear a direct quote, I will consider it just an urban legend.
but i am outta here.Wishing a "teischem l'sholom I remain...
>>>"But beliefs about the Messiah are very sensitive in Judaism and in Jewish history and for 2,000 years, belief in a second coming has been the clear dividing line between one religion (ours) and another"
What trash!
The Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah while he was still alive …
Comment was truncated.
The evidence you cite points to Saducee rejection of J, no more, no less.
As for Shabbatai Tsvi, there are many parallels between Chabad messianism and Shabbatism, especially in the movements' followers' reaction to the deaths of their respective leaders.
Confused, if some does all the things in #3, he doesn't have to declare himself Mashiach. In any event, the Rebbe did none of those things.
The website itself says, under the video, that as the Rebbe instructed, they didn't film until after Maariv.
Running a video camera on Yom Tov is a halakha, from Hashem, not from the Rebbe. To say the Rebbe has instructed that is to replace Hashem with him.
Running a video camera on Yom Tov is a halakha, from Hashem, not from the Rebbe.I see. Someone better tell these guys that they are violating a Commandment of Rebbe Nochum (pictures taken by a security cam running on yom tov)..s'cuse me, Hashem.
This wasn't a security camera (at 770).
But CR, aren't you disturbed by Jews expressing the belief that the Rebbe, who died many years ago, is still alive and should live forever? And by the fact that some Chabadnikim view him as equal to God? I don't see how you can get around that. To me, the latter phenomenon brings the messianist part of Lubavitch perilously close to the Sabbatean movement, parts of which did eventually come to view Shabtai Tzvi not merely as the Messiah, but as God. (See Robert Seltzer, Jewish People, Jewish Thought, p. 471)
Reb Nachum,
Of course not, it was after they said "Ata honantanu" so there were no Y"T restrictions. Now, perhaps someone could have said "Boruch haMavdil..." beforehand and switched on the camera. Halachikally that would have been permissible. But the Rebbe's wish in the past was not to do so but wait until after davenning. Many ways to skin this cat without flying off the handle prematurely.
Rebecca.
In a word, yes, it does bother me. THat is a long way from saying such behavior is beyond the pale. AFAIAC, it is not.
One thing that the S.T-Rebbe comparison leaves out is that S.T. was mechalel mitzvos during his lifetime - including Shmad (he converted to Islam under pain of death). THat invalidated his leadership. The S.T (and Jesus) comparison is a strawman tha keeps getting rebuilt.
Confused, if some does all the things in #3, he doesn't have to declare himself Mashiach. In any event, the Rebbe did none of those things.
My point is simply this: The Rebbe has not yet proven himself to be Moshiach. Nor, has he disproven himself. So, at this juncture, it is no more valid to relate the Rebbe to Jesus, or ST, Lhavddil, as it is to relate the Rebbe to case number three, which is the real Moshiach.
And by the fact that some Chabadnikim view him as equal to God?
Look, Rebecca, there is a longstanding arguement between Chasidim and Misnagdim about asking a Rebbe to intervene for you with G-d. That fight has been fought, and, as in the case of most arguments between CHasidim and Misnagdim, the Chassidim remained Frum Jews, Shomrei Torah Umitzvos, and the Misnagdim Maskilim. So, let's leave all of that out of the discussion. The approach of asking the Rebbe for help with a problem is "settled law."
Then, there is Berger's fantasy that Chabad secretly believes that the Rebbe is G-d incarnate. In the sense that you, or Berger, conceive of it, that idea is non-existent, with the exception of a handful (double digits) of people that have been excommunicated from Lubavitch.
So, why don't we stop bringing up the whole "Rebbe as G-d" argument? Let's have the real argument, and not be distracted by arguing with people that don't exist.
The key questions:
1) Are there compelling reasons to believe that the Rebbe is MOshiach?
2) Is it against the Halacha to believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach?
3) Is there anything against the Halacha in believing that the apparent death of the Rebbe was a Nisayon, which did not actually happen, and is only a trick of Satan to deceive?
Those are all beliefs that people do hold. Let's discuss those, and not beliefs of non-existent people.
(becoming less) confused,
I'll bite.
1) There are reasons although I am not sure how compelling they are. Certainly, once we say that Moshiach can come from the grave then we have vastly expanded the panel of candidates. Why not Dovid HaMelech himself?
2) No posek I but I suspect not although the velt will certainly view the holder of such a view as a bit eccentric (at best).
3) The Gemara is pretty clear where it says "Yaacov didn't die" we still behave as though he did. Not only that, given that it concludes by sayin he is "alive" because he has living descendents, it's pretty clear that his being "alive" is not literary. If this Gemara is the basis for the belief that the Rebbe is still living it seems pretty thin gruel.
Nevertheless, if Moshiach can come from those who have passed away then why insist the Rebbe is alive? We all know that 92 year-old men who suffer strokes and heart attacks don't last long. Period! Meanwhile, if his histalkus is not an "ikuv" then the whole "Rebbe is alive" viewpoint is an unnecessary suspension of reality.
(it's pretty clear that his being "alive" is not literary. If this Gemara is the basis for the belief that the Rebbe is still living it seems pretty thin gruel)
....thank you . additionally , those who take everything literally , the Rambam called them petaeem . (I think , trouble is , now they are getting dangerous too !).
I am wholeheartedly chabad and therefore feel the need to comment. Yes the behavior of these people is Very creepy. But please keep in mind that they represent a small minority in Chabad. While there more people who may or may not believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach and/or still alive, they keep their opinions private and do not parade around shul pretending the Rebbe never passed away.
"they keep their opinions private and do not parade around shul pretending the Rebbe never passed away."
keeping their opinion in private , is not good enough ! one day it will surface , from them , their children or their teacher .
it's a situation that requires a thorough root canal treatment , not sweeping under the carpet .
why cant we just declare a cherem on chabad if they dont stop? i refusal to accept their wine, meat, conversions, brissin, etc. that should wake the rest of chabad to action. and if it doesn't then they are no longer torah jews who care about halacha. they declared an it group cherem on satmer for similar reasons (basicaly their rebbeim didn't speak out against bad behavior) it really is the same thing.
(becoming less) confused says :
"My point is simply this: The Rebbe has not yet proven himself to be Moshiach. Nor, has he disproven himself."
he, he , just like me ! not proven nor disproven . at least i do not spread holiness in the guise of single dollar bills .
nor do i orchestrate in shul chants of yechi .
keeping their opinion in private , is not good enough ! one day it will surface , from them , their children or their teacher .
it's a situation that requires a thorough root canal treatment , not sweeping under the carpet .
Still waiting for an answer to the question: What is wrong with it?!?
So far, the only thing that anyone has said is that the Velt will consider the person a little eccentric. Definitely not grounds for a root canal!
why cant we just declare a cherem on chabad if they dont stop? i refusal to accept their wine, meat, conversions, brissin, etc. that should wake the rest of chabad to action. and if it doesn't then they are no longer torah jews who care about halacha
You can't declare a Cherem against Chabad because there is nothing Halachically objectionable with what Chabad does or believes.
I'd like to expand on a couple of things. First, though that web site claims to be a Chabad site, nothing stops anyone from going out and buying a chabad.something site nowadays. It's certainly a minor one among many, and you're reference is the first I've ever seen it.
Second, obviously no one (except for 1) commentor here has spent any time in 770 in the past 5 years. The group performing this and filming this is a massive group of about 20-30. That's with a normal 770 population of 500.
And, to make sure everyone is 100% clear on this, this is the only place in the world any group of Chabadniks are getting away with this shtuss. So, out of a movement of, oh I don't know, 10,000 - 50,000, you're sweating it over less than 50 people who happen to have a web site.
You're looking that the fringe nut cases and judging the group majority. You're not being fair, objective, or looking with a good eye.
Why hasn't Chabad thrown the lunatics out?
"Why hasn't Chabad thrown the lunatics out?"
they don't throw them out , because there is little difference between the lunatics & the "sane" ones .
the first being overt about their creeds & the others being covert .
either for reasons of parnosseh or because they simply find nothing essentially wrong with them.
They will tell you that the tzfasis are noisy , ill manered , they eat chumus and are merely sefardis , they will never say that they are koifers ! Because they see nothing wrong .
Who will dare saying that the Rebbe is long dead , that he is not coming back as moschiach in a day or 2 ?
Plus they are all busy selling insurance ! (in the guise of mezuzos).
My point is simply this: The Rebbe has not yet proven himself to be Moshiach. Nor, has he disproven himself. So, at this juncture, it is no more valid to relate the Rebbe to Jesus, or ST, Lhavddil, as it is to relate the Rebbe to case number three, which is the real Moshiach.
(becoming less) confused | 11.03.05 - 7:14 pm | #
The fact that you say the Rebbe "has not yet" and "has he disproven himself" shows to me that you believe the Rebbe is still alive - you're using present-tense verbs to refer to him. What proof do you have that he is still alive? Wasn't he buried in his tomb? I don't see how a dead man could be the Messiah.
Could you explain this statement of ??? ????? ???, which I found on the web site www.haGeula.com (http://www.hageula.com/?RowID=5&CTopic=3&
STopic=4&
PHPSESSID=fe17b307d12b9ad705fb592d099a652f):
?????? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???, ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??' (??????? ?????: "????? ??????? ??' ??? ?????? ????" ]), ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??????? ??' ??? ??? ?"? ?? ???? ????, ?? ??? ????? ?????.
This is my rough translation:
"It is understood that faithful Hasidim do not go astray after these vain words, because the true viewpoint, that the Rebbe is annihilated (batel) and unified (me-uhad) with His essence, may He be blessed (as is the familiar usage: “His substance (mahuto) and essence (atzumto), may He be blessed, as it is clothed in a body”), cannot be exchanged for the false viewpoint that His essence, may He be blessed, is a body, God forbid, or the form of a body, for this is the complete reverse [of the true belief-RL]."
How is it Judaism to say that God's substance and essence are clothed in a body? Explain this to me, please.
Oops, the Hebrew didn't transfer, for some reason. The rabbi's name is Rav Yeshav'am Segel. If you go to the web site you can get the original Hebrew.
They only used ????"? (may he live many long and good days)? What a bunch of wusses! REAL Meshichisten would have printed ???"? (may he live forever)...
CR | 11.03.05 - 11:15 am | #
By the way, the discourse of Rav Segel's that I quoted above does refer to the Rebbe in that way, "may he live forever."
The fact that you say the Rebbe "has not yet" and "has he disproven himself" shows to me that you believe the Rebbe is still alive - you're using present-tense verbs to refer to him. What proof do you have that he is still alive? Wasn't he buried in his tomb? I don't see how a dead man could be the Messiah.
No, I am not saying that he is alive. I am saying that the Rebbe's candidacy is still awaiting the verdict of history, since his death does not disqualify him.
Mishichist - you say that death does not disqualify him from being the Messiah. On what do you base this opinion? The Rambam very clearly says that the Messiah must be a living man.
On the same web site that I cited previously I found another odd discourse by the same rabbi:
http://www.hageula.com/?
RowID=22...5fb592d099a652f
"The Rebbe lives and exists
"After we learned that the Rebbe – Prince of the generation – is the King Messiah, it is understood of course that the Rebbe lives and exists with eternal life, “without any immediate interruption,” and that in him there is not even a “hidden change”. Also in this notion we – Chabad Hasidim – do not hesitate at all, for we are faithful to his holy words in regard to the importance – for the matter of redemption – that the life of the King Messiah will be forever, in a condition of soul and body, as we cite that also the decree of “you shall return to dust” it is possible to fulfill – by means of “and my soul will be like dust to all.” (This is) the labor of (self-) annihilation (“dust”), which is equivalent to “death” in spiritual labor."
Again, my rough translation of the first paragraph. To check the Hebrew, go to the page cited above. What kind of "eternal life" is it that the Rebbe enjoys currently - after his death & burial?
Rebbecca - Gemora Sanhedrin, page 98b, bottom of the page, discussing who could be moshiach -
"Rav said, if he (Moshiach) is from the living, (then he is) like Rabbaynu HaKodesh [referring to Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi], if he is from the dead, (then he is) like Daniel, the delightful one."
If you want to top that, read Rashi's commentary. (Careful, you may need to consult your Rav afterwards.)
read carefully indeed: rashi's second interpretation is that we are looking for someone amongst the dead who shares the qualities of moshiach. First interpretation: rashi is careful to write "hoyoh moshiach" (in the past tense) which has no understanding; and the likely interpretation is: that if he "would be' ie. would come in the times of the people who have passed on, it would be Daniel.
in addition: the only one who has Halachik authority on these matters (who codified these matters) was the Rambam. When he was uncontested he remains the Halocho. He clearly denies ascribing the title moshiach unless we have verifiable signs ("cheskas moshiach or vaday moshiach) when those are lacking they lack any halachik standing. when determining with certainty that an individual is Moshiach when he does not have the credentials is against this Halocho.
Furthermore: there is ample room to claim that the Rambam in his Halochos excludes emphatically a person who was thought to be Moshiach in his lifetime and "loy hitzliach" to emphatically and categiorically be excluded by the Rambam to be the Moshiach as he so rules in Hilchos Melochim.
just - I don't disagree with any of that, though you didn't post Rashi's first explanation...
“If Moshiach is from those who are alive now, surely he is Rabaynu Hakadosh, who suffers sickness and is an absolute saint…If he is from those who have already died, he is Daniel, the delightful one, who was condemened to suffer in the lions’ den and was an absolute saint.”
Scary, Rashi says Moshiach suffers, and agrees he could be dead!
Don Yitzchok Abarbanel, Yeshuos Meshicho, “You should not find it difficult that HaMelech HaMoshiach will be among those who arise in the Techias HaMaysim”. (pg 104 in the Jerusalem 5753 edition)
Rambam's position clearly disagrees and does not support this. But we (normative orthodox Judaism) don't posken per the Rambam, do we?
(Yes this is a devil's advocate argument, but the point is the position is not out of bounds, just not mainstream.)
Rebecca wrote
The Rambam very clearly says that the Messiah must be a living man.
And, when the Geulah happens, the Rebbe will be alive.
I am not responding to the questions about the website "hageulah" for the following two reasons.
1) I do not agree with a lot that is written there.
2) The effort to explain what they believe, even though I don't agree with it, is a long one. I can't do it in comments. I hope to get to it on my blog at some point.
No, even according to the Rebbe, who said this PUBLICLY, the RAMBAM's laws of the messiah in Hilkhot Melakhim were not argued on by any Rishonim or Achronim and are therefore the NORMATIVE, accepted halakha.
The halakha is like the Rambam, and the Rebbe cannot be the messiah.
Akiva - could Rashi be saying that the Messiah already came, and it was Daniel? (without saying that he must still be alive, which I doubt he is claiming!) There is another discussion in the Gemara about the identity of the messiah, and one opinion suggests that perhaps he had already come - Hezekiah. (See R. Hillel in b. San. 98b).
Mishichist - are you saying that the Rebbe will be resurrected at the Geulah and then lead all of Israel?
Akiva,
Sorry for not posting the entire first explanation; but the point is that there is strong probability to interpret that Rashi rejected your interpreation EVEN in the first explanation:
When he writes "...was Moshiach..." as opposed "is going to be the Moshiach" (which would have made mroe sense) he insinuates and indicates that the idea of the Gemoroh is: that if we should conjecture that MOshiach would have come in a PAST GENERATION (when the Tzadikim were ALIVE) then a probable and good candidate wwould be Daniel...
1) Rambam 2) especially when he is uncontested 3) in aform of Halacha cannot be overriden by midrash and our reading of gemoroh (especially when the other Sage (who was not a codifier) did not write in a style and formof Halachik ruling!
]IN addition: It is interesting that the Chassam Sofer explains that nowadays to beleive "Eyn moshiach leyisroel" is apikorsus even though there is an opnion in the gemoroh that holds that way: Because klal yisroel has rejected Hillel's opinion and therefore it carries grerat weight to the extent that beleiving otherise is apikorsus!
So one cannot easily rekject the claim: that klal Yisroel rejected an idea of Moshiach arising from the dead to carry no weight!
I am posting again even though I cannot contribute anything halachically enlightening on the topic of whether or not it is possible that the Rebbe is Moshiach.
My point is only that I constantly see people dedicating so much time and effort to bring down Chabad. They hone in on the minority and discredit an entire beautiful movement. If other groups accomplished a fraction of what Chabad does, we would certainly be better off. In spite of all the ridicule and scorn, Chabad continues to forge ahead and do truly amazing work. Next time you walk in union square on succos, or on any street on erev shabbos, and see chabad reaching out and sharing mitzvos, I hope you at least have the decency to give chabad the credit it deserves.
Yes the moshiach issue is a big issue. I don't deny that. But just once you may find that it is possible to see and acknowledge the incredible light that chabad brings into the world. Or, at the least, acknowledge the Rebbe's greatness instead of bringing him into all this craziness.
to the 12 40 anonymous
stop deluding yourself . there is nothing beautiful in standing in the street and asking people if they are jewish
in training their kids to ask people if they are jewish . if the answer is yes , then to be nice to them .
in allocating christmas day to no torah study but rather to cutting toilet paper .
nobody needs their ridiculous fetishism , and idolatrous messianism . they are a stain on our religion .
you love G'd , you want to do tshuva , do it . you don´t need their brownie points
salvation army is more dignified and more beautiful !
a well placed chabad rabbi replying on wether budhism is avoda zara or not , replied
if it looks like , smells like and sounds like one , then it must be so
in what are they different themselves
no matter what the rambam , abrabanel or the gemara says
over the course of the last 15 centuries rabbis said many things that should not be taken literally
many expressions have nothing to do with halakha
if it looks , smells and sounds like etc....
there is no danger in a handfull of freaks doing crazy things . today as a movement , they are crazy and treif
Jath - it's funny, when they started doing outreach 50 years ago, people said the exact same thing! They'll damage their children, coming in contact with the non-frum will infect them, etc.
Now, it's fashionable, everyone is in to Kiruv Rechokim, outreach.
While the vast majority of the frum world is building up the higher and higher walls around the community to keep out the tsunami, Chabad builds lots of little boats and pulls people aboard.
Yep, that's crazy, dedicating your lives to others rather than your own personal learning.
They've been called crazy and treif for 70 years already, nothing new there. What's probably really bothersome to you is that they're also successful, otherwise you wouldn't care.
Akiva
[50 years ago, people said the exact same thing! They'll damage their children, ]
Not me , I didn't say that . Maybe you are talking about conditioning kids to stand like idiots at the doors of groceries & asking patrons if they are Jewish to reward them with candles. This is bad manners and chillul hashem in my opinion .
[Now, it's fashionable, everyone is in to Kiruv Rechokim, outreach.]
Yea , yea , yea ! true . Every one is also into Kabbala . What do we get Madona , Michael Jackson and our correligionists swindling them .Gneyvot Daas both I don't care much about one or the other . Inviting people to your table is an obligation - as far as I am concerned deoraysa .
Building unreasonable fences and not inviting , is alien and not Jewish . Middat Sdom .
[the tsunami, Chabad]
Achizat einayim .
Additionally, it is silly , misdirected and and irreverant towards the Torah to sell mezuzos as an insurance policy .
[They've been called crazy and treif for 70 years already, nothing new there.]
in fact , the Gra figured that much earlier !
[What's probably really bothersome to you is that they're also successful, otherwise you wouldn't care.]
No different than Yirmiyahu's question :
Madua derekh reshaim tzaleikha ?
I care because I care about our religion falling between the chairs .
Somebody mentioned above the effect of the balei Tshuva on orthodoxy. Machmir , machmir . Chumros precede halakha with some .
So between the holy rebbe's fools and the sect of machmirs , we are losing the whole kitty. (I am not touching yet the non orth , but that's another topic ).
Some of the arguments given , are from pilpul land and as such in my opinion are inconsequential digression from the real issue .
Where are the middle of the roaders ?
What does the Alter Rebbe do with the Tanya ? he calls it sefer shel beinonim & he defines the beinoni as an utmost unachievable tzaddik .
I attended few times lessons defining the Tanya's tzaddik.
It was really funny as looking at the presenting -more than 1- rabbis didn't qualify in my opinion as compliant with their own suggested rules.
Then comes the profoundest expressions of "intellect" about the person's mind being created along with his nails from his father's contribution to the creation of a baby . All this picked from the Talmud -nidda mashbiin oto- and presented as facts in our very days . Some intellect give me a break !
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