Yourish.com comments: No flames, please.
Nasty business about the Vatican but with more than 50 thousand people dead, is this really that big of a deal.
The American Jewish World Service is taking donations for relief:
http://ajws.org/index.cfm?section_id=15
JDS
Really, Meryl.
Who has time for basic fact-checking when there are so many altar boys in need of brutal buggering?
Yes, Jay, it is a big deal. It's not a case of fact-checking. It's a case of utterly reversing the truth, which is also known as passing along lies.
Say. Isn't lying one of the cardinal sins?
It IS a big deal in that the anti-semitic propaganda war has VERY powerful allies.
If they aren't held up to world critcism, they just get bolder; the 'Big Lie' is alive and well.
This is where I say something tasteless about the Pope and an artichoke.
First you have this prick in the UN who said we are stingy!!! and should raise our taxes accordingly.....then you have the dolts in the Vatican.
"Crime?"
"Stampeding cattle".
"That doesn't sound very sinister".
"Through the Vatican?"
"Kinky..."
Lying is unacceptable. So is obsessing about your silly little problem in the face of such a tragedy, to paraphrase Humphrey Bogart clumsily.
Still, if you are so ticked off, write an email pointing out the inaccuracy. I did. Here's the address:
ornet@ossrom.va
JDS
"So is obsessing about your silly little problem in the face of such a tragedy"
Blatant lying about Israel isn't a silly little problem, given who the actors are in this farce. In any case, the ones being petty are the Sri Lankans and the Vatican hatchetmen. Thousands of people are dying, someone offers to help, and all they want to do is play poilitics.
Say, didn't Iran refuse help from Israel too, last year?
Why the surprise? The Vatican can't even interpret the Bible correctly. They haven't got anything right in 8 centuries, why start now?
Robert
You know what, Jay? I can concentrate on more than one thing at a time, with differing levels of concentration. So I can feel horrible about the tens of thousands of deaths in Asia, post links for my readers to head for news and charities, and still be outraged that the Vatican is slandering Israel yet again--baselessly. And that Sri Lanka would rather see its people suffer than allow Israeli soldiers on its soil.
That's not obsessing. That's being a thinking human being.
Hmm Where would a country like Israel find a team that size ready to go in under say a week.. (duh the millitary). Of course AMERICAN millitary planes and supplies are welcome as I bet will Australian (they're '-ist' not stupid)
It is the hat, it you had to wear a hat like that you'd be making screwy comments too.
It's far from a little thing. In fact, the more I think about it, the larger it looms. Could be that the editors of that rag are so anti-Israel that they inadvertently got the story wrong out of blind bias. In any event, I wont hold my breath for a front-page retraction.
To play politics with any human tragedy is despicable. But to do so with one on this scale is setting a new low for journalism. The BBC is also getting on the bandwagon. On the World Service a few hours ago they were petulantly whining at the commander of a US warship currently poised to provide aid to the tsunami victims, doubting his ability to help.
Words fail me.
Sri Lanka has had no problem in accepting Israeli made Kfir jets for use in its war against the Tamil rebels.
Honest Reporting has more on the scope of the massive Israeli aid effort and the remarkable silence of the media on the subject.
Meryl,
That's exactly my point. It seems that whenever I read your blog, there is one concentration: me, myself and I.
We can concentrate on more than one thing at once, in fact, we should. That's the reason I wrote to that stupid Catholic newspaper. Even if I think that it's quite a petty thing, I can spare a bit of energy to do that AND give some money for relief, while keeping it clear in my mind that the suffering and devastation and death of more than 60 thousand people (latest figures) is the real issue. But your post doesn't indicate that at all.
I'd have reacted less hotly if I had seen one expression of exactly that--proportion--in your post. An expression of horror at the loss of life, and an expression that helping these devastated people is the most important thing. After that, an expression of disappointment that the official newspaper of the Catholic Church reverts right back to form by lying about Israel sucks. Which it does.
Regarding Sri Lanka, they did allow a non-military group in. Sri Lanka is a political mess, and if you did some research, you'd see that the most devastated part of the country is an area that is dominated by the Tamil Tigers--the real inventors of suicide bombing. (Not the Palestinians.) The Sri Lanka government decided that an overtly military Israeli presence would be a bad thing. Under the circumstances, I am not going to second-guess them.
But I should thank you for bringing this issue, minor though it is, to my attention. Because it is legitimate.
So, are you going to write to them, instead of just kvetching about it on your blog?
JDS
Jay,
The Israelis are ready because their teams of doctors and other rescue workers are all from the army.
The big problem is that a lot of Catholics are going to read and believe and as I commented on another blog, the "blood libel" is perpetuated!
The media hasn't even been reporting the aid that is being given to these countries from Israel. How many Arab/Islamic countries have pedged aid? Indonesia, and India are the two most populous Islamic countries, yet their fellow Muslims basically seem to be AWOL in terms of pledging any aid. That is what should be the story. But the Vatican has to stir things up with this kind of blood libel. This I am sure will be the story on the desperate streets of these poor countries, even though Israel has been supplying more aid than Islamic or for that matter some European countries as well.
No, that isn't your point, Jay, or you wouldn't be bitching at me the way you are. As far as I can tell, your point is that I don't write what YOU want to read.
I had no idea that a blog that I write myself isn't supposed to, well, express my own thoughts. Thank you for telling me what I'm supposed to write. All this time I thought I was allowed to choose the topics and express my emotions as I see fit.
Tellya what, Jay. Why don't you let me write my own blog, and if you want the topics covered differently, get your own and write what you want to see.
In case you hadn't noticed, this blog's "beat" is Israel, Jewish issues, and anti-Semitism, with a lot of me thrown in. That's why I write it, and that's why most people read it. If you don't like it, there's the door.
Wow. I can't believe it. Folks, I fell for a troll.
Don't answer Jay anymore. That's probably not his real name, and he's probably not even Jewish.
By the way Jay, Israel's channel 2 news has just been reporting on the work being done by Zahalrescue personel, from helicopters that are only the means of transport given the devastation. No good sending civilian doctors who would just get stuck at the airport and are unqualified in setting up mobile hospitals in rough terrain let alone abseiling from the helicopters to rummage in the debris for people.
As for "But I should thank you for bringing this issue, minor though it is, to my attention."
how magnanimous of you!
LOL, Meryl.
I was Jewish enough to spend a couple of years on a settlement in the West Bank.
Don't beat yourself up about falling for a "troll," because you didn't. I'm a real person who raised a real issue that you just found impossible to deal with on its own merits, so you shut it off and respond with baseless charges ("troll").
Don't worry, Meryl, I won't be coming around any more. You are dull and not very bright.
From where I'm sitting, Jay, she dealt with your criticism BEFORE she called you a troll. You might want to re-read that when you come back to check this comments section, which of course you will.
And you're the one who characterized the attitude of the Vatican toward Israel as Meryl's "silly little problem." It's a little bigger than that. Who's the one with proportion problems?
Jay, in addition to being not very bright, you are also and at the same time dull.
So, has anybody heard from the Vatican about the requested correction?
I posted this at LGF and thought readers here might like the info as well:
Dear Friends,
Following the earthquake and tsunami that have destroyed hundreds of seaside towns in Asia leaving thousands dead, relatives of those touring Thailand are eager to hear about their loved ones (Southeast Asia is a key destination for thousands of Israeli backpackers who go there to relax after completing reserve duty in the Israeli Army). Chabad of Thailand headed by Rabbi Yosef C. Kantor, has responded to the crisis by dispatching Rabbi Nehemya Wilhelm to the scene of the tragedy in Phuket and turning the three Chabad Centers in Thailand into crisis centers where survivors can come and place phone calls home, or try to find their friends as of yet unaccounted for.
As Chabad of Thailand is the only Jewish service agency in the country dealing with this catastrophe, Chabad's offices and staff in Bangkok, Chiang Mai and Ko Samui have put everything else aside, working 24/7 to assist those in need and comfort.
Chabad volunteers are standing by at the local hospitals to visit the injured and provide them with food and any other help needed. The Chabad Rabbi's and their wives are also counseling the survivors who are in a state of emotional trauma.
With the help of an Israeli telecommunications company there are free international phone calls being offered to those who wish to call home and inform their loved ones of their whereabouts. The free Internet service available at the Chabad centers is functioning as usual.
As the initial efforts of search and rescue wind down the grim work of identifying bodies and counseling bereaved families will keep the Chabad staff fully occupied in the immediate future.
To help us in our humanitarian mission in the aftermath of the Tsunami, please help today by donating your tax deductible contribution to:
American Friends of Chabad of Thailand
96 Thanon Rambuttri,
Bangkok Thailand 10200
OR donate online at: http://www.jewishthailand.com
And yet, a search for any other comments by Jay Silverman yields nothing. I have over 5,000 comments, and this is the first time "Jay" has decided to weigh in. Nope, he's not a troll.
Yeah. What-EVER.
Richard, I searched the news in vain for a correction from the Vatican. Of course, I don't read Italian. Perhaps one of my readers can go to the magazine's website and see if they can find one. Chris? You out there?
Okay, Mr Pope Man was a priest in the killing grounds of the Holocaust in WWll, heck even after the war, his faithful peasants felt they had to kill more. And yet the NR type Conservatives want us to feel all warm and friendly to their Bishop of Rome!
I guess my question was framed incorrectly.
Has anybody actually sent a message to the Vatican explaining the situation and requesting a correction?
If so, what was the response? I don't mean solely in the paper.
Re: The Vatican and the 'Osservatore Romano"
One need look no further than the book "The Popes Against the Jews" to understand everything.
'L'Osservatore Romano' was instrumental in converting religious based jew hatred to the psuedo scientific biological anti-semtism that was eventually exploited by the Nazis.
The French Catholic Church was the spearhead of this Vatican Policy. When French ArchBoyDiddler Echeverria visited Arafat during Arafat's murderous campaign against Israeli women and Children, and they raised their arms in victory together, it all made perfect historical sense.
Damn them to hell.
As that great humanitarian (/sarcasm) Joe Stalin once said "How many divisions does the Pope have"? The Vatican's silence during the Holocaust has disqualifed them for all eternity to say anything against Israel (in my opinion).
I find it harder and harder to take seriously anything that comes out of the Vatican. Their prissy comments about earthly matters have slipped into my mental killfile, along with pronouncements on corruption from the U.N.
I am a devout Catholic, and so know the difference between the stupid non-authorative comments regarding world affairs that so often come from the Euro-weenies at the Vatican, and the teachings of the Church which I do follow. Many of you, apparently, do not, and instead are using this stupidity to bash the Pope and Catholicism. This bashing is very brutish and stupid, and ignores the very real support Israel has among Catholics, in particular among folks like me who are observant. Nice kick in the face... No, I suppose this is not the place to get into any kind of intellectual debate and defense of the Church, but at least now I know that our support for Israel does not keep us from being the butt of tasteless remarks.
I agree with everything Jean said. I am truly shocked at the Catholic bashing going on here. I think Jean hits it on the head with the "Euro weenie" types that DO NOT speak for devout Catholics like myself and Jean. The paper was wrong, the author was wrong. Please don't paint us all with the same brush. You may become what you hate.
They have a good point. I think we can stop with the remarks about young boys, please.
For what it's worth, Jean, my two closest friends when I was growing up were Catholic. I went to an awful lot of masses during family events like weddings and baptisms.
Meryl,
Thank you very much.
Meryl, I guess it is worth the same thing as me saying I had best friends who were black growing up. Thats great, but if I allowed racist comments on my blog then who I grew up with wouldn't mean much would it? Just something to think about.
I actually did not see one post here trashing catholics, generically.
I don't know if Jean and Rightwingsparkle were referring to my post or not.
If they were, there's a bit of a misunderstanding going on. Trashing L'Oservatore Romano, Echevarria, and the organized catholic church for actions (and inactions) and statements that both today and in the past caused a lot of heart ache is not the same as bashing people of catholic faith.
And if you think it is, well, good luck to you. You won't catch me around these parts again.
So Meryl had a couple of good catholic friends growing up. WTF has that got to do with anything? I guess she finds it more important to bend over backwards to try and say the right thing (tho it sounds like 'some of my best friends are jewish') to a couple of thin skinned whiners who are off base with their remarks, instead of telling them they should be writing the vatican and telling them, as good catholics and human beings, to start correcting a few historical crimes the church has committed, or at least stop committing more of them.
Jean said:
"I am a devout Catholic, and so know the difference between the stupid non-authorative comments regarding world affairs that so often come from the Euro-weenies at the Vatican, and the teachings of the Church which I do follow."
Here's a flash Jean. It's probably more important how the organized church actually moves in the world than what it's doctrine says. Actions speak louder than (written) words, no?
As for the many masses Meryl attended, I wonder if she happened to hear any of the gospel readings where the jews are castigated for various actions and demonstrations of perfidy? How'd those make you feel? It ain't all sweetness and light, you know.
FWIW, my wife is catholic, and I've attended a few masses myself, and not enjoyed them when they got around to the jew parts, depsite the 'doctrine' that when the jews are denigrated, it's really the whole congregation, and even all of humanity, that the term 'jew' is meant to stand for. That's a relatively recent doctrinal approach, and I have the feeling that that subtlety is lost on all but the most enlightened catholic churchgoers.
Too much negative history to be wiped out by a couple of decades of superficial 'reconciliation' that is not accompanied by action, but rather by continued aiding and abetting of the enemies of the jews (some of whom, the muslims, also happen to be enemies of all christians).
Sometimes I wonder why I even bother. Thank you so much for acknowledging my efforts to defuse the situation, Rightwingsparkle.
Here's the thing: The accusations of child molestation are Catholic-bashing. The historical actions of the Catholic Church and Jews are not.
My mentioning the fact that my two best friends growing up--and well into my thirties--were Catholics--was meant to point out that I am not anti-Catholic. Jean obviously got what I meant, but you, Rightwingsparkle, are just as obviously looking for a scrap. I'm not interested.
Concerning my childhood friend, both her family and mine gave us no end of grief for our friendships, because she also happens to be Polish. She and I just ignored the bigotry of our parents and stayed friends. By the time she got married, our families had forgotten all about the early years, when they told us that Jews and Poles can't be friends.
Maine's Michael, you are really close to being told to STFU. Jean and RWS are no more to blame for the Vatican's actions than you and I are for any actions that Ariel Sharon may take.
I will NOT have flamewars in my comments thread, and you're doing your best to keep the fires burning. Stop it.
Meryl, I will respect your wishes and not feed the fires. I would simply like to invite one and all to attend a Catholic Mass---you are welcome, and you will see for yourselves that what Maine's Michael describes is not the truth.
God bless Israel for offering to help those who would slap her in the face. Jesus has taught us the value of such patience. Shalom.
hmmm... yet another assault on the truth in gool ole anti Semitic Europe. What else is new...
Meryl said:
"Maine's Michael, you are really close to being told to STFU. Jean and RWS are no more to blame for the Vatican's actions than you and I are for any actions that Ariel Sharon may take."
Well, that statement reveals much on just one line.
Disagreement is interpreted as 'flamewar', the solution to which is STFU. As well, comprehension of the written word is somewhat challenged as well, as I'm quite sure my response suggested that I felt quite strongly that criticizing the organized church is not the same as criticizing individual catholics.
I did learn something useful here, however, and that's the phrase 'I don't know why I bother'.
That's how I feel right know.
See ya.
One last thing, Meryl. I would suggest readers take up jean's suggestion to attend a catholic mass, say in a polish or irish part of town, and make it the easter mass. See how nice and cuddly that little passion play makes you feel.
And Meryl, defending the honour of catholic clergy? WTF for?
I'll just share something with you. In the little hamlets around where I live, a couple of priests were removed recently from puclic contact because of, well, if not boy diddling, let's call it 'man-boy' love - several victims, the events occuring decades ago.
The reaction of the locals was interesting. A sizeable fraction, and not just the elderly, just didn't see what all the fuss was about, that that was just 'the way things always were', and that these were fine priests who were being sacrificed on some PC altar. There was even a supportive editorial in the local paper.
So this type of thing was pervasive and systematic, is what I can see just here on this local level.
So, again, WTF are you defending the honour of catholic priests for? That's what lawyers are for.
Maine's Michael,
I would second your suggestion that Meryl attend an Easter Mass: the liturgy is quite beautiful. Any Sunday would be fine, though, and she would see that what you claim is laughably bigoted---if religious bigotry is ever laughable.
Regarding the sex scandals within the Church: certainly Catholics are horrified, as would any decent person. Throw the bastards out, I say, as well as any bishop who enabled them to continue by covering up their crimes. Will justice be served as I would wish it? Probably not in this world. Sadly, though, this is not a problem confined to Catholic lergy: there are similar rates of abuse in other denominations, as well as in the public schools (where the rate is actually higher). For example, I know and have known many wonderful priests over the years, but the only abuser of children I ever knew on a more personal level was an Evangelical minister who molested the daughter of my closest friend (the daughter is now an atheist---no surprise there). To pretend that this is a specifically Catholic, and not a human, problem is to display a willful bigotry. But I suspect bigotry is something you perhaps cling to, cultivate, and protect within yourself: it's easier than thinking, after all, and good will is not easy either.
No, Maine's Michael, this is why you're about to be told to STFU. This is not "disagreement". This is known as flaming:
"I guess she finds it more important to bend over backwards to try and say the right thing (tho it sounds like 'some of my best friends are jewish') to a couple of thin skinned whiners who are off base with their remarks."
If you can't discuss things without flinging the insults, then no, you aren't welcome here.
And there is no discussion of religion, anywhere, that won't degenerate into an insult-fest. I should have realized that.
This discussion is ended. I will close comments if I have to.
Let us keep out eyes on the real story; the tsunami and the thousands of poor souls who have perished. The Vatican has made historic and positive strides with respect to its relationship with Israel in the past decade. We should reserve final judgment until we know all the facts about the Vatican story.
Well, I thought this thread was about the official catholic mouthpiece, L'Osservatore Romano', faslely accusing Israel of being, well, meanspirited and petty, kind of 'merchant of venice' like.
I attempted to point out that with that particular organ of the church, it was par for the course, with ample historical precedent.
Some took it personally, for some reason, and Meryl didn't like the gratuitous priest bashing, and thought the whole megila somehow besmirched all catholics. I don't see it, but what do I know, I don't have a blog. Fair enough.
The tsunami is the big story, and this is a side-story. We all knew this going in. The side story has a subtext of historical official catholic attitudes and actions towards jews.
I didn't make it up. I just report. You decide.
So, anyway, has anybody contacted the Vatican and asked for a correction?
What was the response?
Jean, you said:
"To pretend that this is a specifically Catholic, and not a human, problem is to display a willful bigotry. "
That's a straw man argument, jean. No one suggested that it isn't a human problem, as opposed to a catholic one.
AIDS is a human problem too, but happens to occur more commonly in drug users and homosexuals here in N America. Same thing.
I think what people found horrible about the child abuse among the clergy was that a) they were clergy, b) the magnitude of the problem was huge/widespread and c0 there were attempts to sweep it under the rug or quietly buy theri way out on the part of the organized church in the past, rather than addressing the strcutural issues that let this practice flourish. In other words, it was systematic, and apparently tolerated at the highest levels of the organized church.
But, and this is important, Jean, it does NOT make YOU a bad person.
And pointing it out does not make ME a bad person either.
No, Michael, pointing out that sex abuse by clergy and its cover-up by bishops is reprehensible does not make you a bad person. Bringing it up to bash Catholics when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand; claiming that our good host is guilty of "defending the honour of catholic priests" ; as well as other comments does make you appear to be bigoted. I don't have a lot of patience with bigotry, as it doesn't typically co-exist with intelligence: it's a handy weapon, though, and as I wrote earlier, it's easier than thinking.
Jean,
Listen Jean, I'll spell it out for you, one last time, because I think you're a good hearted person, while somewhat challenged from the reading comprehension point of view.
No one here bashed 'catholics' as in you, or my wife, or the man in the street. I (and others) were talking about the 'organized church'. That means the hierarchy. The decision makers and movers and shakers within the Church, NOT the flock, my little lamb.
And it was IN context the remarks by the catholic church in the l'osservatore romano.
Yeah there was a tangent about child abuse. Big deal. It still wasn't directed at you.
Happy new year. I'm done.
Michael,
You don't want to let go, do you? Not a good trait, but necessary for a bigot to stay a bigot.
No one bashed Catholics here? For your edification, here's a selection of what is offensive to Catholics that has appeared here, having nothing to do with the story at hand:
"Who has time for basic fact-checking when there are so many altar boys in need of brutal buggering?"
""Crime?"
"Stampeding cattle".
"That doesn't sound very sinister".
"Through the Vatican?"
"Kinky..."
"The Vatican can't even interpret the Bible correctly. They haven't got anything right in 8 centuries, why start now?"
"It is the hat, it you had to wear a hat like that you'd be making screwy comments too."
"Okay, Mr Pope Man was a priest in the killing grounds of the Holocaust in WWll, heck even after the war, his faithful peasants felt they had to kill more."
" 'L'Osservatore Romano' was instrumental in converting religious based jew hatred to the psuedo scientific biological anti-semtism that was eventually exploited by the Nazis."
That'll do. I imagine, then, that with your view of history, Lutherans are even worse than Catholics---better hate them, too! Make up some tasteless comments about their organization, and feel real righteously angry forever! Shzeesh...bigots are so boring and dull and predictable.
And on that note, these comments are now closed.
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