Yourish.com comments: No flames, please.
So this is why I couldn't find the draft version--it's complete. Bravo!
Isn't there something in scripture about . . . lying?
Is it really lying if the unconverted are doomed to an eternity in hell? It's not lying, it's doing us a favor.
/sarcasm
Yes, it's lying - it is making false statements in order to deceive. It doesn't matter what your motive is. There is no "that shalt not bear false witness unless it is for a good cause" in the Bible.
"Messianic" Jewish congregations are listed in my Yellow Pages under "Temples and Synagogues - Messianic Judaism," right next to "Reform," "Conservative" and "Orthodox." Yeah, I would say "deceiving" too.
Then if you look at the descriptions - let's take the one congregation that has been near my parents' house for years, as long as I can remember - there's a Star of David and some bullets with details, some of which include:
-Learn Davidic Dancing
-Bar/Bat Mitzvah
-Learn Hebrew
-Shabbat School
-Judaica Gift Shop
Then there's the Beit Theila temple, which includes:
-weekly Torah studies
-Hebrew Folk Dancing
-Judaica Market Place
Notice how the congregations play up the Judaica with markets and folk dancing just so they can appear more "Jewish" (and what exactly is Davidic dancing?)
My mother converted to Xtianity right before I was born. I was raised as a Xtian. When I was working for California Baptist College, I was fired for being Jewish. Since that very day, I began learning more of my heritage, my family and its history and I will never deny my Jewish Heritage nor my religion, Judiasm. I try to be as Orthodox as possible but at times its very difficult, but I always do my best. Now I live in Tempe AZ and trying to find the right Shul to join. For the remaining period of my life I am Jewish. Born of a Jewish mother who became a Xtian and when we buried her per her wishes her grave is marked with a Cross instead of a Star of David. When I am buried it will be with a Star of David.
Meryl
Off and on I have been writing a satire about these paskudniks. Maybe I better get back to it. A bit further on I I'll try and get a copy to you, if I may. It is based in a bagel shop in Toronto, and Israel but applies everywhere.
On my last trip to Israel, a family friend kindly arranged a seat up front by the bulkhead where one may stretch out a bit Lo and behold there was a J for J in the next seat who decided to practice on me. More gist for the mill. And I thought sitting between two barfing kids was bad.
Harry
What if Christ really is the Messiah?
Robert
Meryl, I had no idea that was going on with WR. Sorry he was being such a putz. It hurts to lose a friend because they can't tell when they are doing or saying something unforgiveable. FWIW you know I'm on your side.
Robert, if he is, just think how mad he must be at those jerks who feel that the way to get jewish converts is to deceive them in his name.
From "To His Coy Mistress" by Andrew Marvell (1621-1678)
"Had we but world enough and time,
This coyness, lady, were no crime.
We would sit down and think which way
To walk and pass our long love's day.
... I would
Love you ten years before the Flood,
And you should, if you please, refuse
Till the conversion of the Jews."
According to the theology Marvell knew and lived, the "conversion of the Jews" is supposed to take place shortly before the final battle of Armageddon and bring the Second Coming in its wake. In other words, in Christian belief (or at least the belief that these churches are operating under), the conversion of the Jews is an essential stepping stone to the perfection of the world under Jesus. So the more quickly this is accomplished, the better for everyone. And if it will save the world, not to mention all those poor, benighted souls destined for hellfire, what are a few little white lies more or less?
Then there's "replacement theology," according to which the Christian Church replaced the Jews as God's chosen people. There are a lot of misconceptions regarding what it means to be chosen. According to everything I've learned, it simply means that the Jews have a job to do. It doesn't mean preferential treatment, as the briefest glance at our history will show. It is a burden we accepted at Sinai: to accept the Torah and live by it in the world. But as we human beings know, the concept of being chosen for anything -- even a difficult and unpleasant task -- often leads to envy on the part of others. (Ask any child.) We have suffered from that envy for the past two thousand years, and are still suffering from it. Replacement theology is a direct result of that envy.
Finally, here's the belief that rankles me the most: the idea that anyone -- Jewish or not -- who doesn't subscribe to evangelical Christianity will go to hell forever after death. To my mind this is dreadful hutzpah for two reasons: it blasphemes, making the infinite Creator out to be no better than the most petty, narrow-minded, even abusive human being, and it presumes to make decisions regarding other people's minds and souls in God's name. The God I worship is not so cruel as to mete out eternal suffering solely on the basis of the religion in which an individual is born or chooses later on in life.
rant on
Think about that -- eternal suffering! What do we think of human beings who make others suffer in order to control them? We think they are cruel, abusive, disgusting monsters. We banish them from our communities and put them in prison. And to say that God is like that?? How does anyone dare?!
rant off
Uhm, Jesus was a Jew. He had a Jewish mother. Does it mean he isn't Christian?
Though I must ask, why does Reform, and even more extremely, Reconstructionists are considered Jews even though their belief system is not based on, and many times, conflicts with the very book they consider holy (like Reform Rabbis blessing same-sex unions), while messianic Jews... err.. evangelical Christians aren't? If religious belief and affliation is supposed to be taken into account to judge someone's "Jewishness" - what is that standard, and who sets it?
But, bah, what do I care. I'm not Jewish.
Rahel: "Replacement theology is a direct result of that envy."
Wasn't Hitler a pagan? I believe in the replacement theology - yet I don't go around painting swastikas on Jewish tombstones, lynching Jewish students, or instigating pogroms against Jews. In fact, I have received a lot of flak in Malaysia by virtue I'm voice out my disapproval and hatred for anti-Semitism.
"The God I worship is not so cruel as to mete out eternal suffering solely on the basis of the religion in which an individual is born or chooses later on in life."
So God cannot judge a person by the life they lead? Besides, from your comment, its easy to see you have clear misconception of Christian theology. But then seeing the way you write, I don't think I could do anything to change that.
Rajan, I think there's a difference between doctrinal differences or debates on social matters (i.e., whether same-sex unions can be considered valid in Jewish law) and theological differences (i.e., whether Jesus is the Messiah or a deity, rather than a human being). While there may be room for debate in the former (though some people may disagree on that), there is absolutely none in the latter. According to Judaism Jesus is not God, nor was he the Messiah, and in Judaism one may not ascribe divinity or pray to anyone but God.
Not all my Jewish friends keep kosher or keep Shabbat, but they are staunch Jews nevertheless and know the difference between God and Jesus. One is the Divine Creator, while the other was a human being. One may be worshipped, while the other may not.
Rajan, Judaism distinguishes between belief and action. Even an idol-worshipper (one of the worst things a person can be, according to Judaism) is a good person in God's eyes if he/she does good and refrains from evil. Judaism acknowledges that people of any belief system, even idolatry, are capable of making that choice and are rewarded or punished accordingly.
Nor did I say that all Christians follow replacement theology. If you do, that's your choice. But as you yourself acknowledge, there is a distinction between your beliefs and your actions.
Yes, we believe that God judges people according to the lives they lead. But we don't believe that choosing a belief system automatically makes a person good or bad. Actions do that.
Also, Rajan, Hitler was not the only one who tried to wipe us out. He was just among the more recent ones to make the attempt.
May I point out that I am writing about Evangelical Christians who call themselves Jews?
I have no desire to get into a theological debate. This post is about the deception these Christians use to try to convert Jews, and the deceptions they use on the general public to make them believe they are Jews.
They are not Jews. That's what this post is all about.
1) I love Andrew Marvell, regardless
2) "Messianic Jews" are intellectually dishonest and deliberately deceptive; that's my issue with them. Christians who try to convert Jews are honest even if I resent it; J4J's who try to tell me I don't know real Judaism piss me off.
3) The daughter of the local "rabbi" got ensconsced with the local religion editor and was writing numerous articles about her beloved Jewish people; when I brought to the paper's attention her position with an evangelical group [which she had not brought to their attention] and the question of "full disclosure" was brought up she disappeared from the journalistic scene. Alert your local papers! Watch the skies!
It's a lot of fun for this Orthodox Jew to watch Rahel twistin' an' turnin' to try and justify the non-covenantal streams of Judaism. Some choice parts:
Judaism distinguishes between belief and action. Even an idol-worshipper (one of the worst things a person can be, according to Judaism) is a good person in God's eyes if he/she does good and refrains from evil. Judaism acknowledges that people of any belief system, even idolatry, are capable of making that choice and are rewarded or punished accordingly.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Well, no. Especially not regarding idolatry - otherwise Christianity itself would be OK. Our beef with Christianity is that the Jesus story is a set-piece lifted right out of the pagan playbook - God appears incarnate as hero, then is elevated to the ether - the same problem that we have with Buddhism.
Remember?
Rahel - is the worship of idols an "act" or a "belief"? In reality, the Judaism of the Torah is unique among world religions for the tight integration of belief and action - the mitzvot provide a verrrrry detailed instructions on the acceptable way to walk the talk, aren't there?
Similarly, you write:
I think there's a difference between doctrinal differences or debates on social matters (i.e., whether same-sex unions can be considered valid in Jewish law) and theological differences (i.e., whether Jesus is the Messiah or a deity, rather than a human being).
- - - - - - - - - - -
... and again, the source texts of Judaism are unique for NOT making that distinction. As Rabbi Soleveitchek put it in our own generation: in the Torah's view, my fellow's material needs are my spiritual needs.
There is a very detailed plan for the ideal society. The Torah says "be thou holy, for I am holy" - and goes on to describe a unique plan for sanctifying the bedroom, the boardroom, and every other sphere of human endeavor.
The distinction between secular and sacred realms is entirely foreign to Judaism.
I'm glad you all are worked up over the fraud of Messianic Judaism. Perhaps you can answer a more basic question:
If it's OK to revise the Torah's moral laws, to opt out/rewrite/cherry-pick covenantal obligations, to combine elements of Buddhism and other pagan faiths in your Judaism - or to not believe in G-d at all, as do some 40 percent of Reform Jews - then what's wrong with Christianity?
If it's OK to fold, spindle, and mutilate the covenant at the heart of Judaism and non-Orthodox streams do, then Christianity is merely the oldest - and most successful - Reform movement in Judaism. And at this point in time, the Christians of America hew more closely to Torah morality and behavior than most non-Orthodox Jews.
What's not to like?
Ben-David: If you want to discuss theology, start your own blog. I do not want this comment thread to turn into a religious argument.
I thought I made that clear the last time I said that this post is not about theology.
It is about deception.
And I gotta say, the "My Jewishness is better than your Jewishness" really doesn't fly with this Conservative Jew. Neither do your insults about non-Orthodox Jews.
Hint, hint.
Wow.
Most. Bigoted. Post. EVER.
Will hopefully have time to explain why later.
This was very, very interesting to read and it has helped me understand something that happened at my church a few years ago. We have a synagogue next door and we've always gotten along well with each other. A group of "Jews for Jesus" started coming to our services, and we welcomed them. After a little while their leader asked if they could park their van (with their name very prominently on it) in our parking lot during the week. We gave them permission and immediately started getting complaints both from the synagogue and from our many Jewish neighbors in the neighborhood. We rescinded the permission for the van immediately, but it really wasn't until now that I understood why it was so upsetting to them. Thanks for the education on this issue, Meryl.
I thought I made that clear the last time I said that this post is not about theology. It is about deception.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
But there must be a bright line between what is Judaism and what isn't for this charge of deception to stick.
Christians DO in fact have their own very sincere connection to our tradition. No lie in that - we all love to crow about how the Law of Moses changed the world, don't we?
As a Conservative Jew, I'm sure you sympathize at least at some level with my assertion that there must be an unchanging core of belief and obligation at Judaism's heart.
So:
How do these synagogues differ from Reform congregations in which half - or more - of the congregants are unconverted non-Jewish spouses?
Is a Jewish-born "Bu-Jew" practicing deception? Or just being laudably "open" to the good in other spiritual traditions? Why is one a "deception" while the other is "progressive"? Would it be different if the Chinese had slaughtered us, instead of the Europeans?
How are Messianic rabbinical credentials disinguishable from the way in which the various sects of Judaism set up their own rabbinates?
As far back as the 70s a survey of Reform clergy showed that 40 percent of them agreed with the statement "one can be a good Jew without believing in G-d".
How is this any less "at odds with Judaism" than belief in Jesus?
Can't have it both ways: if you support pluralism within Judaism, then Judaism becomes such an amorphous and malleable construct that you can't really charge anyone else with deception.
Where is the line drawn?
And if it can't be drawn... what does THAT mean?
Ben-David,
Two thousand years ago, a segment of the Jewish community came to believe that a Jew from the Galil was God incarnate. When that premise was utterly rejected by the rest of the Jewish community, those Jews started calling themselves by a new name: Christians. They aren't a sect of Judaism that questions some or all of the literal interpretations of the Torah. They're a new religion that claims to have received a "new covenant" that supercedes the "old covenant." A clean break. The fact that modern missionaries are attempting to fudge that break in order to convert Jews to Christianity doesn't erase it.
And please note that Reform Jews don't try to "convert" Orthodox Jews to Reform by claiming that Reform is the "true Torah Judaism."
And if Meryl will forgive me a brief digression of a theological nature,
God appears incarnate as hero, then is elevated to the ether - the same problem that we have with Buddhism.
That's just not an accurate description of what most Buddhists believe. Buddhism is basically an anti-theistic faith. Here's a link.
I suspect, Ben-David, that you're not getting your information on either Christianity or Buddhism (or Reform, Reconstructionist or Conservative Judaism, either, for that matter) from entirely accurate sources.
Ben-David, you don't listen very well, do you?
Meryl, this post should be required reading for every phonebook publisher and every newspaper religion section editor.
If it's yellow, and made from ground mustard seed, I can call it "ketchup" all day long, but that doesn't make it ketchup. And if I put a label on it that says "ketchup" and I try to sell it, I'm guilty of misrepresentation. What is so complicated about that?
I think the line drawn is quite clear, Ben-David. Reform Jews do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. Ergo, they are not Christians, your dislike of their answers to thirty-year-old polling questions notwithstanding.
Can we stop with the interdenominational arguing now?
Reform Jews don't try to "convert" Orthodox Jews to Reform by claiming that Reform is the "true Torah Judaism."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
...but they obviously feel that their movement is, somehow, "true Judaism".
Yet most Reform Jews believe that the Jewish covenant is no longer obligatory. Some even believe that it has quite literally been "superceded" or "fulfilled" by modern socialism, liberalism, etc. - and that these new belief systems take precedence over received Judaism when the two conflict.
This exactly parallels Christianity's innovations. In fact, many of my encounters with (angry, self-righteous) Reform Jews could be lifted entire from the literature of the Maccabees, the Hellenistic period, and early Christianity - including the increasingly frequent debates about the "barbaric" practice of circumcision and other things that were previously uncontested aspects of even the most dilute "ethnic" Jewishness.
Without a solid, binding body of content, it is not possible to say what is and is not Judaism.
Considering the large swathes of the Reform rabbinate and laity that have crafted a deity-optional Ethical Culture Society version of Judaism, it's hard to assert that Christianity is somehow at more of a variance with received Judaism than the modern "progressive" movements.
In the Reform synagogues I have attended, the service and the sermon/discussion ranged widely and included many non-Jewish points of moral and spiritual reference - some of them drawn from very recent political movements.
I didn't see any barrier to a non-Jewish spouse introducing sincerely felt aspects of their (usually Christian) upbringing. Would a Reform service in which one member read Buddhist koans then exclude a member who recited the Lord's Prayer? In fact I think the members would pride themselves on such openness.
But it's not possible to then turn around and condemn the Messianics.
My guess is that the antipathy to the Messianics stems from class and political divides as much as historical antipathy - with only the tiniest pinch of theological distinction.
And that's not enough to make a charge of deception stick.
Sorry, I responded before I saw Meryl's curtain-dropper comment.
It was at times difficult to tell in your post if you were referring to genetic privileges or country club membership.
Yeah yeah, your "deception" objection is a bunch of baloney. You've got ethnic condescension running like a leaky sewer through the whole post. Shame on you.
Plenty of Jews I know claim to be Jews but don't observe whatsoever, should they forsake the title as well?
Frankly any sort of evangelizing is in order to save a person from your kind of attitude.
I'm sorry to say this but your apparent distaste for other belief systems as an option for the "unstable" in your community brands you as a bigot.
Stay single and spare another human being.
I have no problem whatsoever with other religions. My problem begins when they want to change mine.
And gee, Jim, great debating tactics: Take offense at the topic, then insult the person who brought it up.
Hey, I'm convinced.
Jim is a anti-semitic jerk who is unaware of the fact!
The problem with a lot of people is that cannot come up with a SIMPLE definition of what "Jewish" is. They make one up and use that as a standard for judgement.
What was that about "Judge not lest ye be judged."
Harry
For the record: I was in no way trying to justify other streams of Judaism. I have no need to do that; they are no threat to me or to my practice, and I think it's a great pity that after so many years the non-Orthodox streams of Judaism still seem to be, for many Orthodox Jews, their version of the boogeyman or the monster under the bed, or the standard by which they judge their own level of observance. I don't subscribe to any of that at all. Period.
My original point was merely this: there is a very big difference between different streams within a particular faith or doctrinal differences within that faith and what is, after all these centuries, another religion entirely.
If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck walks like a duck....
Jews (of ANY stripe) do not proselytize, and they do not believe that the Mashiach has arrived yet.
Fail this most basic litmus test, and you are no Jew, bogus trappings of Hebrew dancing, shofar-blowing, and Shabbat dinners notwithstanding.
Sadly, Li'l Mamzer, that's not entirely true. It's possible that we're in the process of a new messianic schism right now.
Wait a second. You can be an atheist and an ethnic Jew, but you can't be a Christian and an ethnic Jew?
How about Muslim? Or Bhuddist? Will those work? Or is it just for groups that want ethnic Jews to think like them?
Once again, point utterly missed. This isn't about ethnicity. This is about changing your religion. This isn't about atheism. This is about people lying about being Jewish when they are, in reality, Christians who are trying to convert Jews.
You are changing the subject.
As to doctrine, what happened to: "Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you. That is the core, all the rest is commentary." A rabbi once said somethng like that to convert a pagan who asked to be taught Torah while standing on one foot, didn't he?
Somebody who believes Jesus was the Messiah, and believes in his divinity, is a Christian, not a Jew, as Meryl pointed out. You can't be a Jew and believe in the divinity of Jesus. End of story. To assert that you can is, as Meryl said, deception. It's like a Christian priest telling somebody "Yes, you can believe in Jupiter and all the other Olympian gods and still be a Christian, no worries."
Jim should try using arguements next time rather than sneering condescension.
My one comment here is directed at this point:
But isn't this America, and don't we have laws against false advertising, bait-and-switch tactics, and deceiving the public? Shouldn't those laws apply to religions as well as to corporations?
Under the first amendment, it is absolutely not the government's responsibility or power to decide who is properly a member of which religion. That way lies madness.
I agree these people are beneath contempt, but believers have to sort out for themselves who can call themselves members of which religion.
I said I'd get back to you, so here I am.
Let's start at the start: Christianity started out as a subset of Judaism. If you accept the tradition of the New Testament, just about every Christian up until Cornelius was a *gasp* "Messianic Jew." The Romans recognized Christianity as a sect of Judaism so that originally, Christians were exempt from the pagan religion requirements of Roman law, just like the Jews were.
So that was then, this is now, and we all recognize them as separate religions. That doesn't change the fact that Christianity has a legitimate Jewish heritage which only the worst of bigots would try to keep them from celebrating.
Meryl contends that the "Messianic Jews" are intentionally using Jewish customs to lie to and deceive Jews into converting to Christianity... Shrill paranoia at best, blatant bigotry at worst. My own experience with the Messianic Jews: they are ALWAYS open about being another denomination of Christinianity. The only Jew who would join their group thinking they have nothing to do with a belief in Jesus of Nazareth is a painfully dumb one.
Meryl also contends that a large portion of their congregations aren't "Jewish," which I guess means aren't ethnically Jewish. Sounds an awful lot like the Jewish Reform Synagogue in Salt Lake City, which comes complete with a lesbian Rabbi (last time I visited). Most of those "Jews" looked about as I do. I suppose Meryl would contend that these "reform" Jews are at least Jewish in religion, but hells; if a lesbian can call herself a Jewish Rabbi, why on earth can't an evangelical just call himself Jewish? (Hmm, I wonder which one bears a closer resemblance to ancient Judaism... The world may never know. :P)
Oh, and let's not forget: the term "messianic Jew" doesn't just refer to Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah; it refers to any Jew who believes the Messiah of the Torah has come, historically and present day. Several people on this thread insisted that once a person believes a Messiah has come, s/he isn't Jewish. Interesting. So I guess that means you're all going to stop being Jewish once the Messiah finally shows up, eh? I guess it also means the followers of all of the following people weren't/aren't Jewish: Menachem Mendel Schneerson, Jacob Frank, Sabbatai Zevi, Moses of Crete, Bar Khokhba, and Menahem ben Judah--just to name a few. Oh, and I eagerly await Meryl's fisking of the Jewishness of these groups.
But here's my real problem with Meryl's post: She is calling ALL Messianic Jews who claim Christ as the Messiah liars and deceivers who are hellbent on tricking Jews into their religion. That's right, a couple hundred thousand people and their kids; not one honest Christian among them who just wants to celebrate his or her legitimate Jewish heritage and has no interest in tricking Meryl's honest-to-God Jews into the movement. If you don't believe me, read the post again; it's sadly lacking in qualifiers.
In fact, her whole rant sounded like an evangelical screeching about Mormons not being Christians. Just change "Jews" to "Christians" and "Christians" to "Mormons" and you have an evangelical anti-Mormon tract. Meryl should consider writing for evangelical countercult ministries with that level of bigotry.
So, when is a rabbi not a rabbi? Well, I would say when he's a lesbian. Maybe Meryl should worry more about those "Jews."
*Should be "most of those "Jews" looked about as Jewish as I do."
Plenty to respond to.
I'll put your comments in a post.
Well, Meryl can put up a post, 'cause it's her blog. But in the meantime, I'll start (and, um, "trollslayer"? ya got two too many syllables in your name):
1. The fact that the Romans recognized Christianity as a subset of Judaism is really impressive, especially since they were the bastards who set out to destroy Israel and its holy places. Yes, I'd call them a real good source to cite on what is and is not "Judaism." (BTW, that was sarcasm)
2. "Christianity has a legitimate Jewish heritage which only the worst of bigots would try to keep them from celebrating." By all means, let them celebrate it. Although distorting and misinterpreting your "heritage," let alone trying to massacre it for a millenium or two isn't what I'd call celebrating it. But, hey, it's a free country.
3. Plenty of Jews throughout the ages have had illusions that the Messiah has come. Here's what they didn't do. They didn't claim that the Messiah negated the Covenant between God and the Jewish people. And they didn't claim that the Messiah was God. That's why, yes, they were still Jews. If you're having trouble following this, I can't help you. (BTW, Menachem Mendel Schneerson and Jacob Frank were "groups?" Who knew?)
4. No, only the ones who lie. And your experience is obviously limited. They lie about it habitually. But congratulations on being such an erudite Jewish scholar that you can easily see through the charade. Unlike you, Meryl isn't trying to blame the victims.
5. Oh. Another attack on Reform Jews. Perhaps you've missed the previous few dozen posts while you were composing your opus. Anyway, I think I'm about out of space. And interest.
I know I probably shouldn't jump into this, but I'll just give it a shot anyway. And I'll try to tie this in with the topic of deception…
Trollslayer, I think your argument has some flaws. Yes, it's true that Christianity has its roots in Judaism. It's true (I think) that Emperor Claudius' ban on Christians from Rome was described as one being against "those Jews who follow the one called 'Chrestos'," or something to that effect. On at least one occasion, if I'm not mistaken, Paul referred to Christians as "Jews" (i.e., those Jews who accepted Christ as the Messiah), while Acts uses "Christians" to describe the non-Jewish Christ-worshippers. But…then came two thousand years of development.
Christian rite took on a form of its own after Paul, a new corpus was composed that pertained to those whom we can call Christian, followed by the development of the church, or "ecclesia" - all these things made Christianity unique, and indeed, separate from Judaism, not least of all its issue of accepting Jesus as the Messiah. Consider Christian development throughout the centuries - the Council of Nicaea, the Church Fathers (Jerome, Augustine, etc.), the east/west schism, the Protestant Reformation, the Catholic Counter-Reformation, the later Protestant movements in Britain and North America, Vatican II - all these occurrences are alien to Judaism, and thus, cannot be considered "Jewish" developments. In fact, early Christian writers themselves distinguished clearly between Jews and Christians, as did medieval law, unfortunately often with terrible consequences for the Jews.
You mention Bar-Kochba and the others and whether or not their followers were, in essence, "true" Jews. But you must ask yourself what if Bar-Kochba's movement had lasted after his death and taken on a form of its own? Likely we would be speaking of "Bar-Kochbans," while Jews who would not have accepted Bar-Kochba, or any other candidate, would simply be called Jews. Regarding the acceptance of a new Messiah for the Jews, I’ll let Meryl handle that question ;-) Regarding the lesbian rabbi question (“if a lesbian can call herself a Jewish Rabbi, why on earth can't an evangelical just call himself Jewish?”), however serious the issue of lesbian rabbis, it still does not distinguish reform Judaism in as fundamental a way as Jews accepting the divinity of Jesus, i.e. what Christians do. So I’m not sure that the Jews-for-Jesus and the lesbian rabbi comparison is apt. I could concede your point only if the question of homosexual rabbis spawns a whole new sect of “Judaism” with its own sacred literature, rites, etc., making it into an entirely new religion, but either way, you and I would probably not be alive to see it.
That being said, if a Jew is someone who follows Judaism (forget the ethnic question for the moment), with its own rites, ceremonies, beliefs, etc., while Christians are those who accept Jesus as the Messiah, with its own rites, beliefs, etc., cultivated over two millennia, then to somehow mold the two together and say one-is-really-the-other-but-not-really would be a basic abuse of the English language. Meryl and others have the right to be upset over this.
Whether or not Messianic Jews are “true” Jews, I won’t delve into that. But I think a group that has the trappings of Judaism, advertising Bar Mitzvah classes, Shabbat events, etc. and claims to be “Christian,” to your average Joe, or Jane, that can be a bit deceiving. I would no more expect a priest to say kaddish or a nun to blow the shofar.
Actually its not deception at all........these Jews are simply observing the fact that the early Church was all Jewish, founded by a Jew.....your understanding of the Greek Bible is abysmal to say the least!!
To be a follower of Jesus makes one as Jewish as possible.......Read in Romans by another Jew, Saul or Paul, where it declares that the Gospel is for the Jew first and so forth!!
Its not deception to give Hebrew believers a Jewish setting in which to praise the Messiah Yeshua! This was how the first century Church was before the Gentiles totally turned it away from its Jewish roots.......I am not criticizing Gentile forms of worship and the such, just that the Jews were truly the First followers of Christ.....it's all good!!!
Read the testimony of 50 Shekel the Jewish rapper who recently became a Hebrew believer in Christ....quite amazing too be sure....it was even recorded in the Jerusalem post and many New York papers...
http://www.50shekel.com/Home.cfm
And remember folks, the Gospel doesn't target Jews........it targets the whole world.......
I doubt if anyone will read this far, but Meryl, I agree, deception is wrong. Truth is truth, and if you'll allow me to paraphrase a famous Jewish Rabbi: Before you worry about the splinter in your neighbor's eye, cast the beam out of your own...
Robert
Lest I be misunderstood: The paraphrase was NOT directed at Meryl, but to all who allow their own agenda to interfere with the rights of others...
Robert
Albertadude, it is most definitely deception. It has been absolutely established for 1900+ years that belief in the divinity of Jesus (or any other person) is incompatible with Judaism. That Christianity started as a deviant Jewish sect does not make Christianity Jewish any more that Protestantism is Catholic or the United States is a member of the British Empire. The problem with the so-called "messianic Jews" (SCMJs) is that they adopt the surface trappings of Judaism on top of an Evangelical Christian core for the purpose of appearing to be Jewish. Had Christianity followed those customs (Friday night candlelighting, Torah readings, etc.) for the past two millenia, we might not be having this conversation. But the actual path followed by Christianity makes it clear that these practices are not normative to the SCMJ religion, but were specifically adopted as camoflauge. That is, they were adopted to make the groups appear to be something they are not.
And Robert, you are not quoting a "famous Jewish rabbi." You are quoting a Christian leader. The entire point of Meryl's post is that there is a difference.
In Jerusalem's Old City there is a church specifically built to resemble a synagogue in order to attract Jews to it and make them feel comfortable there. The literature at the nearby museum, owned by the same church, states this explicitly, referring to the Jews they attract as "Jewish believers." The museum is located over a significant archaeological site, but the church will only allow tour groups there if their own tour guides can give the lecture. In their experience, tour guides from outside refer to them as missionaries and expose their true intent. (Do I detect a bit of hypocrisy along with the lies? Yes, I do think so.)
They have a lovely indoor-outdoor cafe at their site. On the tables are various tracts in Hebrew that encourage people, especially young people, to accept Jesus, using supposed proof texts from the Bible.
When I was in college, a friend of mine, a devout Christian who believed that everyone should join her faith as soon as possible because if they were not they would go to hell, had a book called Questions Non-Christians Ask. It contained detailed instructions for persuading people of different faiths to accept Christianity. I remember that Judaism and Islam each had entire chapters, and if I recall correctly, the section on dealing with Jews was the largest. But what sticks out in my memory after all these years was that the summary section read in part: "Encourage Jews to 'complete' their Judaism" by accepting Jesus. To this day I wonder why the word "complete" was in quotation marks.
It seems the tactics are the same all over. Deception is deception no matter where it is practiced.
(And Meryl, I apologize for discussing theological stuff where you didn't want it. I only wanted to go into the "why" of missionizing as well as the "what" of it, since to me the "why" is just as rotten and full of deceit as the "what.")
It occurs to me that I can summarize the deception in three words: "Rabbi" Eric Carlson.
He is not Jewish in any sense of the word by Jewish law. He is not a rabbi in any sense of the word by Jewish law.
Yet he claims the title of rabbi, says he's a Jew, and is represented that way in all the media reports about his "synagogue."
There, in a nutshell, is my problem with "messianic Jews." They're liars and frauds, and the world perpetrates this fraud by allowing it and excusing it. Or ignoring it.
Or shooting the messenger, come to think of it.
The fact still remains that Christianity is nothing more than the most successful of a long line of Jewish Messianic Cults.
Meryl, maybe it's another instance of -- this time -- Jewish Double Standard Time, or the Exception Clause. Deception is wrong, lying is wrong -- except when Jews are the targets.
Plausible?
The Messiah is supposed to put much of the world under Jewish authority. So if Christians all convert to Judaism (including acknowledging that God is One Person), we will admit that that mamzer really was the Messiah after all.
Is it a deal?
BTW, can we start a Christians for Moses group?
Showing my ignorance, I went for the tried and tested way to learn the definition of 'mamzer': I googled. The best I came up with was this. Then I looked at Dictionary.com and it suggested that the word means the following:
'Mam"zer, n. [Heb. m['a]mz?r.] A person born of relations between whom marriage was forbidden by the Mosaic law; a bastard. --Deut. xxiii. 2 (Douay version).'
You realise that you are insulting lots of people who haven't tried to deceive or convert?
Rahel, the Exception Clause applies to every aspect of Jewish life. It goes without saying.
I'm afraid I don't see the deception involved with ethnic Jews who believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
I also don't see the consistency of reconciling atheism with the Jewish religion (atheistic Jews do have the right of return, don't they?), while acceptance of Christianity negates one's Jewish heritage. I can understand Jews wanting to get away from proselytizing Christians, but that ruling sure must have some nuances involved.
Sure, the semantics of Jewishness may be confusing, and on the religious issue, I fully agree that christians are differentiated from Jews, but it is legit to use the term 'Jew' in an ethnic sense, and in that sense, the term 'Jews for Jesus' can be as accurate as Jews for Communism or Jews for Democracy or Jews for Civil Rights.
That's just ignoring the entire concept of the messianics. They don't go on about how ethnic Jews believe in Jesus. They insist that you can believe in "Yeshua" and remain Jewish spiritually, and also that Jews are incomplete until they accept Jesus as the Messiah.
You can ignore those points all you like, they're not going to go away.
Not believing it doesn't make it true: Flavius Josephus and other historians wrote of Jesus. Whether you believe him to be the Messiah or not, your choice, he was still a Jew and still taught in the Temple and in Synagogues.
Also, you can ignore the 53rd Chapter of Isaiah, but it isn't going away either.
BTW, I am not a messianic, nor do I try to convert people. Jesus taught that we are to present the Gospel with gentleness and respect, and yes, Meryl, truth. I still agree, deception in the name of God is wrong. Just ask Abraham about his sister. Ahem.
Robert
Robert, that wasn't deception in the name of God. It was deception in order to save life. Think why Abraham did it -- the reason is right there in the Torah.
You can't ignore the 53rd chapter of Isaiah, but you can point out that the your translation of it and our translation of it differ greatly.
I never said Jesus wasn't a Jew. However, that doesn't make him a Jew for Jesus. Or a "messianic Jew."
Rahel: Abraham's reason is immaterial, it was still sin, as the Pharoah pointed out to him. His deception was predicated upon a lack of faith, not necessity.
Meryl, my apologies, I was referring to the post that said Jesus wasn't a Rabbi. Sometimes these multi threaded threads get confusing.
Again, I agree with you, according to the letter that Paul wrote to the Corinthians, we are all free to make up our own minds and he clearly stated it's none of my business what you believe. We have to decide for ourselves, and clearly, whether you are Jewish or Christian, if you believe in YHWH, deception is sin, for whatever purpose. Agreed?
Robert
Robert, Abraham was actually telling the truth, as he explains to Pharaoh in Genesis 20:12: Sarah was indeed his half-sister on his father's side. Moreover, there are some cases where omitting some of the truth is not considered sinful. For example, in Genesis 18:13, God does not repeat Sarah's entire sentence (see previous verse) to Abraham in order to preserve domestic peace. Repeating it to Abraham in its entirety would not have accomplished anything and in fact might have caused strife between a married couple -- itself a serious sin. So God tactfully left it out.
This is not intended as any condoning of deception. It only means that Jewish tradition recognizes that there are some situations where being uncompromisingly forthright will accomplish nothing but causing pain to someone else, and in such cases tact is better than brutal honesty.
Of course (as if I needed to say it), this does not apply in any way to the case at hand.
I am constantly astonished at how people, both Jewish and Christian, put "tradition" ahead of what Scripture clearly says to justify their beliefs. Why do you think Pharoah was upset? Quite simply because Abraham's deception caused Pharoah to sin. Abraham's deception was because he feared for his life rather than trusting the Lord to protect him as He had promised to do. I have never heard anyone use this passage to make excuses for deception. And then you seem to be accusing the Almighty of deceiving Abraham. You seem to be missing the point of the entire passage. You also seem to be applying human values and thoughts to Him. His thoughts are not our thoughts, His ways are not our ways...
Robert
If Christians claim that Jesus was conceived before Mary and Joseph were married, you can't blame us for jumping to conclusions.
On the other hand, maybe you can think of Jesus as part of a typical Jewish family. He thought his mother was a virgin and she thought her son was God.
I suppose we should be pleased that one or our relatives is worshipped by billions of people, but we really wanted him to be a doctor.
Joseph: If I will not allow people to mock Judaism, neither will I allow them to mock Christianity.
Stop it. Now.
Robert,
Please stop lecturing us on what our Bible "clearly says." Great sages have wrestled over the meaning and significance of this story, and there's disagreement among them over whether, to what extent and in what way Avraham Avinu acted improperly. This episode took place in a larger context, which you are ignoring.
Here is a truth that is not being told. The Old Testament declared that the Word of G_d would go out into the world, to the gentiles.
I've never had a "Jew" engage me, joyfully announce the truth of a Creator.
Evangelization came thru one Jew, Yeshua Ha Moshiach. It is not just that a billion people came to know Christ, but upwards to two billion came to know YHVH thru Him and to know Israel, Yerushalyim, David, Yehoshuah, Moshe!
The day that the modern Jewish remnant, faithful to the Creator start spreading the Good News, will be a good day indeed. I can't wait to hear the stories told of the Bible by the Hebraic people.
Finally, one other issue. There are now Jewish Messianic Congregations that are fully Jewish run. The difference is they do not accept the Talmud. But then, neither do other Jews, who accept only the written Torah, Prophets and Psalms.
This is so much more complicated than a simple one size fits all.
Something very special happened as Yeshua entered upon the stage. That is undeniable.
If not for his teachings that went first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles, where would Israel be today?
These are difficult issues to comprehend and not easily blown off. What has happened since the foundation of America and favorable acceptance of Jews by American Christians was not ever found in Europe. Not without deep envy, which led to terrible actions.
And yet, any serious Christian that studies understands that Christ message was never to harm or coerce anyone, let alone the Jew. If the message, the true message was not received, then dust off one sandals and move on.
I do not like deception anymore than others. But to think that deception was not practiced by Jews for inheritance at times past, is to be ignorant.
It has been practiced by both Jew and Gentiles.
I am just happy that the precepts, the truths brought forward by Yeshua to the gentiles were given to us. It is a great blessing. And I hope likewise Meryl, we new believers of the wild branch can be a blessing to you and to Israel.
you're certainly sincere and seem to feel very threatened. This is nothing new. It's happened ever since Yeshua walked the earth. He & the Pharisees never got along either. A lot of times communications break down when a person feels threatened.
I believe I understand what you're saying about a person who sees Yeshua as Mashiach, no longer being a "Jew".
It seems you're saying that they are no longer observant of rabbinical laws and have accepted that the Messiah has come according to prophecy, that they have strayed from the Tenakh (which they haven't) therefore they are not "Jewish". You would be speaking of a religion so in that case, if judaism taught that the messiah had not come, then this belief would go against that portion of judaism, but not against the Tenakh as it is interpreted differently (obviously) by different groups, clearly.
If they were of jewish descent, they would still be entirely Jewish in their bloodline. If they no longer followed rabbinical law then they wouldn't be considered "Jewish" in a religious sense of the word, in your eyes. They read the same Torah you do, they pray the same prayers from the Torah you do, they hold the same traditions you do so what would lead you to believe that they should suddenly divorce themselves from tehir own culture & traditions? Yeshua didn't do that so of course the Jew believing in Him wouldn't do that. Yehsua fulfilled the Law and He is the example for those who follow Him. He as in every way, "Jewish". I see no need to think that those who follow Him would somehow not be allowed to continue on in their tradition and beliefs. Why would it be deemed a "lie" to love & support Israel or have traditional liturgy simply because they have accepted the Jewish Messiah?
There are sects in Judaism, would you not agree? Each believes tehy are correct, each hold the Torah as their guide. Messianic Jews are a sect of judaism as the charge was leveled against Paul in the brit chadashah. Those gentiles which attend services with them are not Jewish. They are joined with Jewish believers in unity as "one new man". This is by design. A Messianic congrefgation should not consist only of people who are "Jewish" by descent/nationality. Yehsua's claim was that He came for the entire world because God loved the world. Perhaps you can see that what matters is that they are reaching out to Jews in the community or the world as part of the command to preach teh good news, first to the Jew then the gentile. A congregation should consist of more than people of Jewish nationality. Everyone who acepts teh Jewish Messiah should learn about Him, about the way He lived His life, the scriptures He read, the land He lived in, it's customs etc or they wouldn't know Him. Remember His house is a house of prayer for ALL people, not just Jewish (nationality) people
What has changed in the Jewish (nationality) person who accepts the Jewish Yehsua as Mashiach? Do they not follow Torah? Of course they do! To do anything less would be sin! They no longer have to rely on their own works and attempts at keeping the Law as a means of salvation, grace, mercy or anything else. It's a free gift via Yeshua's completed work, lest anyone should boast in their own efforts and attempts.
Yeshua taught observance of the Torah and took it all to a higher level such as teaching that not only do you not commit the act of adultery but, merely looking at a person you aren't married to and lusting after them is considered adultery, same with murder...He taught not only do you not murder but you do not hate your brother (physical or spiritual) as it would be considered murder. The Law says to love your brother but He said love your enemies also because even the pagans love their brothers.
His commands took the Law to a higher level, dealing with the heart of man rather than outward acts. A change of heart is what Elohim wanted. For those who believed, He took the penalty of death for transgression of the Law away - He didn't take the Law away. Yeshua was a "rabbi", and also called the great Shepherd. A messianic rabbi is a shepherd or master of the flock in his care, whether you agree or not.
If you were a Jew and you believed that the Jewish Messiah had come, would your acceptance of the very thing Jews are looking for make you any less "Jewish"? No. Yeshua is everything "Jewish" He's the fulfillment of judaism - the promised Messiah! You can hardly get more Jewish than the promised Messiah.
Instead it would be a fulfillment of the prophecies. You simply don't accept the Jewish messiah, Yeshua and are upset about the command He gave to His followers to go into all the world and tell everyone about Him - the Jewish Messiah-, first to the Jew, then to the gentile.
Messianic believers that are Jewish in nationality simply want everyone to know the One they believe is Mashiach, who has fulfilled each prophecy. If you had the answer you felt people were searching for you would speak. This isn't islam...everyone has the right to refuse to believe and they retain the right to share their belief. In America, you don't have the right to say to a Jewish person that they can't believe that Yeshua is Messiah and tell others about it even if it makes you angry.
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