I agree with MJ (previous thread) and Gutsy on Orlando. Unless Orlando goes against what seems to be unfolding then they exchanged Carter for Turkuglu which seems like a large drop off - let alone the loss of Lee. Frankly it only makes sense from a PR stand point (see we brought in Vince Carter how can you let you be mad at us for letting Turkuglu walk). That said if we're all wrong and Turkuglu stays its a good trade for next year (I think?)
Minnesota drafted 3 PGs in the first round - that has to be a record. I too expect a trade at some point as its looking like Rubio will never play for them.
I like San Antonio's draft as they got Dejuan Blair - who I saw own Hasheem Thabeet. If anyone can explain why the Cavs passed on Dejuan Blair - who could help today - for a Spanish League JV player please let me know. I don't.
I also want to know how someone can be 6'10 and 190 pounds (Austin Daye - Pistons #1 pick). I don't know how a person can do anything at that size.
Even if Hedo stays, I don't see how Orlando can put out a starting lineup of Jameer Nelson (1), Vince Carter (2), Hedo Turkoglu (3), Rashard Lewis (4), and Dwight Howard (5) and expect that to work. This isn't baseball, where the deepest lineup tends to win. In basketball, you need players to accept their roles. How are the Magic better served (except at the ticket window) in having Hedo Turkoglu suddenly become their 4th offensive option and having VC's and Rashard's egos fighting it out for the touches that don't go to Dwigh Howard? This is a recipe headed for disaster and reminds me of the Drexler-Pippen-Barkley fiasco of 1999 in Houston.
As for the Nets, yes, on paper, they're in a good spot. However, since money spends the same in every place, I simply can't envision people picking New Jersey over New York. I understand that NJ's talent will trump NY's but, at the end of the day, it's about the money. You can't market yourself as a superstar playing in the IZod center in East Rutherford, New Jersey. You just can't.
Minnesota's draft was like Matt Millen picking WR after WR for all those years. Even if Rubio was drafted as trade leverage, what are you going to do with Sebastian Telfair, Ty Lawson and Jonny Flynn on the same team? Two of those three picks didn't need to be made. That makes no sense to me at all.
San Antonio, as usual, finds a gem at the bottom of the draft. Considering they depleted their front line depth to get RJ from the Bucks, this was a nice addition.
My thoughts on the Knicks are below...it needs its own post...
Oh my fucking god. OH MY FUCKING GOD do I hate Donnie Walsh and Mike D'Antoni.
Look, picking 8th in this draft is a curse in and of itself. It's not like the guys that went 2-7 are necessarily franchise-changers but they certainly would've fit into the Knicks system better than Jordan Hill. When you're 6'10" and the knock on you is that you need to improve your finishing around the basket and that you're most similar to Ronny Turiaf, what am I supposed to think?
This guy has absolutely no discernable NBA skill whatsoever, other than the fact that he is tall and has that nebulous "athletic" tag to him. Tons of NBA players are "athletic" and that is often a code word for "can't shoot, can't dribble, can't pass, but can jump really high and can get lucky enough to score a big night once a week against lazier opponents." In short, Jordan Hill has bust written all over him.
Worse yet, the Knicks traded Quentin Richardson -- by no means a good player, but at least he can shoot from the outside -- for Darko Milicic. What on earth does that accomplish? The Knicks traded their starting small forward and their best on-the-ball defender for an apathetic big man who is considered the second-worst draft bust in NBA history after Michael Olowokandi? WHAT'S GOING ON HERE?
Isiah was hated by nearly everyone in the NBA and, fairly or unfairly, he had to be let go because the team had quit on him and the off-court issues were getting to be too much. But Isiah did more good on draft day than any other Knicks GM has done since 1985. As Stuart Scott said last night, the Knicks haven't drafted a player that has made the All-Star team since they drafted Mark Jackson in the '87 draft. That's 22 years and counting. Last night did nothing to change the Knicks draft-night futility streak.
Darko and Jordan Hill on one night. The Knicks suck and will continue to do so for at least another three years. Donnie Walsh and Mike D'Antoni both suck at their jobs more than I ever thought possible.
Just for the record, the T-wolves already traded Ty Lawson to Denver for a future 1st round pick.
anyway, I think players will choose the Nets over the Knicks for the simple reason that they know they will win (while still getting paid top dollar). i suppose we shall see next summer.
As for the Knicks... I actually thought Jordan Hill was a decent pick at PF given the slim pickings in this year's draft. As for Darko, I have absolutely no idea why they did that. Maybe it's because Darko is mobile so they can run with him?
I hate to be didactic about this but one thing I've come to truly believe is that fans and athletes don't think the same way and don't share the same priorities. To fans, winning is the most important thing. We view everything through the prism of wins and losses, championships and parades. The reason is because we don't get paid to play so all we're left with is the good feeling we get when our favorite team wins.
Athletes enjoy winning too. Rightly or wrongly, winning validates them in the eyes of the media and fans at large. But winning isn't their only motivation (or sometimes, even their motivation at all). It's not as black-and-white a situation as an athlete picking New Jersey over New York because, all financial things being equal, the potential to win will trump everything else.
There's a reason why the Nets have never attracted a single free agent in their entire history and that reason is visibility. Even when the Nets went to consecutive NBA Finals in 2002 and 2003, they were still overshadowed in their own region by the lowly, self-destructive Knicks.
That isn't to say that SOMEONE won't take the Nets' money next summer. Money, after all, is a big reason why players move to new cities. But -- let's get the elephant out of the room -- LeBron James or Dwayne Wade won't be taking New Jersey's money. As much as these guys are driven to win -- and those two are as motivated as anyone in recent NBA history -- they are both incredibly intelligent, self-aware business men who know that playing in New Jersey would do nothing for their careers. They'd be better off staying in Cleveland and Miami, respectively, than moving to a backwater suburb like East Rutherford.
If you or I had a chance to play professional basketball, we'd probably pick the likeliest place we could win because that's the only thing we understand. But pro athletes have greater concerns and winning is only a part of the total equation. It's also about compensation, visibility and marketing opportunities, and the own self-satisfaction and boost to one's ego that comes with being associated with a certain franchise. The Bulls, Knicks, Lakers and Celtics all have that cache that the Nets simply don't have and never will.
"I actually thought Jordan Hill was a decent pick at PF given the slim pickings in this year's draft. As for Darko, I have absolutely no idea why they did that. Maybe it's because Darko is mobile so they can run with him?"
In my opinion, the Knicks should've traded down or out of this draft entirely, especially when it became apparent that the only two players they wanted (Rubio and Curry) were not going to be available. If it means taking less value for the #8 pick than it's worth, then so be it. Simply making a draft pick doesn't seem sensible to me. If not that, then they'd have been better off picking a better player in an overdraft situation. Someone like Ty Lawson would've been a much better pick for the Knicks than Jordan Hill. A man that big and he can't score inside? In all the years we've been watching the NBA, is there another big man that can't score inside that has gone on to have a good career? Channing Frye was the last time these Knicks made that mistake. Countless other teams have drafted "athletic" big men who had no offensive skills. It's a recipe for disaster.
As for Milicic, I don't care if he runs like the bastard child of Usain Bolt and a cheetah after a one-night stand, the guy has been in the NBA for six seasons now. He sucks. We know he sucks. He knows he sucks. Everyone knows he sucks. He hasn't had even three consecutive good months in the NBA. It's over and done with and there's no spinning it.
This ridiculous trade is a perfect example of how Mike D'Antoni's system is a corrupting force that leads to bad moves in order to acquire players that fit a system instead of acquiring players that belong in the NBA. Milicic, together with last year's busted first round pick Danilo Gallinari, don't belong in the NBA. Only an arrogant fool like D'Antoni could believe that he could win with guys that no one else wants. He couldn't win with Steve Nash, Amare Stoudamire, Shawn Marion, Leandro Barbosa, Boris Diaw, Joe Johnson and Raja Bell. Why would he be able to win with Jordan Hill, Chris Duhon, Al Harrington, Eddy Curry, Danilo Gallinari, and Larry Hughes?
You want to know the worst part in all of this? Because their roster got worse with the additions of Hill and Milicic and the likely departure of at least one of David Lee and Nate Robinson, the Knicks will likely finish with fewer wins next year. Utah owns the Knicks' first round pick next year -- likely to be higher than the 8th pick -- which means it'll be June 2011 before the Knicks can draft a prospect again.
I miss Isiah. That's how miserable it is being a Knicks fan.
Yes sharing the basketball in Orlando would be issues but I suppose its becoming a moot point as all the evidence points that Turkuglu is on his way out and as such its a giant downgrade for Orlando. And the rest of the East celebrates...
Yes Jordan Hill has giant Darius Miles wannabe tattooed somewhere on his body (I still feel bad about him getting booed).
Yes if trading for Darko isn't prima facia evidence that D'Antonio should be shipped off to Italy or Turkey or the Congo I'm not sure what is. After drafting EuroTrash in the NBA Contest Winner last year you'd that some lesson was learned.
As to the New Jersey-New York issue, I leave this to the New Yorker, will the Brooklyn move change at all the perception of the Nets as a second tier team?
A move to Brooklyn may improve New Jersey's image but it's not as simple as location, it's about exposure and it's about financial support. Already, the new arena project has been downsized three times. The wealthy corporate sponsors that keep NBA teams going are based in Manhattan, not Brooklyn. What we're talking about here is trading an apathetic fan base in New Jersey and trying to see if a new fan base in Brooklyn will pop up.
Also, an ancillary but relevant point that no one else mentions: Madison Square Garden (and Knicks) owner Jim Dolan fought tooth and nail to block the Jets from building a stadium two blocks away from his building. If he fought against a team in a totally different sports league, what do you think he's going to do in order to make sure his territory isn't encroached in his own state by a team in the same league? The media blackout that he'll try to impose will strangle the Brooklyn Knights, to say nothing of the fact that no team can survive without the financial support of the well-heeled. Besides celebrities, why would rich Wall Street types go to Brooklyn when they can stay in Manhattan? Moving from New Jersey to Brooklyn is an improvement much in the same way that moving from hell to purgatory is an improvement: it's better, but your situation hasn't improved that much.
Finally, for all the talk of Lebron's friendship with Jay-Z (a part owner of the Nets), let's not be ridiculous. Lebron isn't going to pick the Nets over the Knicks just because his friend is a minority owner. If -- and I am making sure that everyone sees that "if" in there -- Lebron decides to leave, it's for reasons bigger than just money, winning, or friendship with a rap star. The total package has to make sense for him from a financial and marketing perspective. He can stay friends with Jay-Z and be a Knick or a member of any other club.
"Yes Jordan Hill has giant Darius Miles wannabe tattooed somewhere on his body (I still feel bad about him getting booed)."
Agree completely on the Miles comparison. Tall, lanky, athletic, no defined offensive skills.
Don't feel bad about him getting booed. Anyone not named Curry or Rubio was getting booed and I'm sure his agent prepared him for that. Truth be told, he's going to endure far worse than that. If his career is as bad as I think it'll be, Knicks fans will make draft night seem like a giant party.
I like the comparison of Jordan Hill to Channing Frye, because both played at Arizona and both are raw, and both got drafted by the Knicks...
I have no idea why the Knicks got Darko. I don't think that D'Antoni believes he's actually winning with Darko. D'Antoni or any coach for that matter wouldn't be able to go to the playoffs with the Knicks current roster.
I've loved this NJ/NY discussion. It will be interesting next summer!
However, I will defend Isiah's awfulness and say this: you should not compare D'Antoni/GM to Isiah. Isiah not only screws up the present, but the future too (i.e. your 2010 1st round pick from the Marbury trade). D'Antoni/GM at least only received an expiring contract (Darko). Granted, they select the wrong players, but they aren't doing stupid things yet (like trading for Marbury or Curry and giving up 1st round picks and expiring contracts). Isiah is the worst-ever and D'Antoni/GM aren't even close to that yet.
"Isiah is the worst-ever and D'Antoni/GM aren't even close to that yet."
Quentin Richardson for Darko Milicic was an expiring contract for an expiring contract. The Knicks didn't add an expiring contract, they merely replaced one for another. In effect, the Knicks took the worse player straight-up in the deal.
I'm not concerned with ranking Isiah as a GM or a coach in all of his previous stops around the NBA. I'm merely judging Isiah by his time here in New York and marking him against Donnie Walsh and Mike D'Antoni. The only good thing Donnie Walsh has done is position the Knicks to be $40M under the salary cap for the start of the 2010-2011 season. Other than that, his two drafts have been objectively horrendous.
Isiah, for his flaws, still added Nate Robinson and David Lee to the roster via the draft (not to mention Quentin Richardson and Jamal Crawford). The Knicks are getting worse players, not better ones, under Donnie Walsh.
I'm certainly not going to say that trading future draft picks for the likes of Eddy Curry and Stephon Marbury has worked out for the team but I also won't praise Donnie Walsh for making blatantly idiotic moves in the draft. Why bother having draft picks if you're just going to mess them up anyway? Danilo Gallinari and Jordan Hill? Eddy Curry's entire bloody abortion of a career is still better than what those two pieces of garbage will amount to combined. Do you realize that? What does that say about Donnie Walsh that his two draft picks in New York won't even add up to the career one of the worst draft busts in history (to say nothing of the other draft bust he just traded for)?
It's popular to trash Isiah but Donnie Walsh's time in New York has been just as catastrophic. The only thing -- literally THE ONLY thing -- that can redeem his tenure in New York is if he manages to get Lebron or Wade to come to New York. To have wasted draft picks and made bad trades and to then not succeed in getting one of those guys to come here...well, the franchise will be set back another half-decade.
I still think Jordan Hill could pan out. But yes... Donnie Walsh hasn't done great at all so far in the draft. You really can't judge him until he fills out the roster in 2010. we shall see.
I think the big problem is that donnie walsh may have lost his touch 5 years ago. There's a great youtube video from when he traded Al Harrington and Stephen Jackson (which helped Golden State to win in the 1st round). I'm not passing judgment on donnie walsh until after next summer though.
See this is the problem with free agency - if Donnie Walsh signs anyone big is it really because of him? At this point who hasn't cleared cap space for 2010? Followed by everything MJ (and please correct me) alluded to its almost as if the Knicks can bring players in spite of their front office incompetence. Its the Knicks therefore they have a built in advantage that despite Donnie Walsh's best efforts remain.
In any event free agency starts and oddly I feel its really a question of which of the Big time teams is hurt the least (ie who can retain their talent) is the theme then adding any big name.
I don't yet know how I feel about John Hollinger but in his article on 6/18 (must be an insider to see it), he had Jordan Hill as one of his 12 ranked "Potential disappointments", along with the other Knicks 1st round pick, Toney Douglas. I don't care about Douglas as it's doubtful he even makes the rotation. Again, I don't know how I feel about Hollinger but he's got a pretty good track record at picking draft studs/duds.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/d...aftRater-
090618
I agree with Mighty about Donnie Walsh. I can certainly give him credit for transforming the Knicks from a grossly over-the-cap team to a team that will be under the cap in time to pursue top free agents. Dumping Zach Randolph to the Clippers was nothing short of an unexpected miracle. Having said that, how much credit can we really give a GM that knows enough to simply give Lebron or D-Wade the keys to the NY Federal Reserve vault? Any idiot could do that.
What we're left with is this: two horrendous drafts (bad), a terrible coaching hire (bad), trading one expiring contract (Q-Rich) for another (Darko) and getting the worse end of the deal (bad), and clearing salary cap space (good). The bad seems to outweigh the good here. Donnie Walsh has been a net negative GM for the Knicks in his 14 months on the job.
I think these are all good points... you are right. We could have hired the greeter at wal-mart to hand the money over. Anyway, clearing off the Zach Randolph contract may have been the best move indeed. Draft-wise, it's been pretty poor. But again, Jordan Hill hasn't even played yet, so you should wait until the season to flunk him and the GM.
"But again, Jordan Hill hasn't even played yet, so you should wait until the season to flunk him and the GM."
Gutsy, don't you know by now that I believe in snap judgments and plenty of Rage Flakes? 
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