Nzingha's Soapbox
Asalamu alaykum,
Veil on, indeed. The link to the Kurdi article doesn't work. I tried to find it over at ArabNews but couldn't.
wa alaikum salaam
I think because I linked w/ the annon browser. Since Arab News tries to force those living in Saudi buy their paper. I'll link w/out the annon link and that should work. Here is the link
ttp://www.arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&
article=84216&d=21&m=10&y=2006
Assalamualaikum
You said based on your study veiling (covering face with eyes showing, both or one) is not religiously mandated.. I actually have come to that conclusion a while back too.
But what about hijab itself (covering the hair).. what do you think of that. I recently think that it is recommended but not that strongly. To be modest yes but not necessarily includes covering the hair. Almost like sunnah when you do wudu, washing body parts 3 times instead of once.
Eager to hear form you.. I personally have been wearing it for about 23 years 
)
um yusuf
thank you for the entry. it's definitely empowering.
'eid mubarak to you and your family.
Nzingha, a thoughtful and interesting post.
I've given some thought myself to these things, although as a Christian woman in America I don't cover my head unless it's a hat to prevent sunburn. (Christian women in other countries have and perhaps do cover their hair.)
I think one reason why we don't like to see that is that it's not what we're used to. It's human nature to think that the way we grew up is the right way to be. I look at pictures of you with your head covered and I might think that either (a) I wouldn't want to do that, so poor Nzingha probably doesn't either; or (b) I wouldn't want to do that, but Nzingha clearly does, so she must be very different from me. In both cases I'm projecting my own feelings, which isn't really appropriate.
People in the UK feel threatened by the veil because they are experiencing a huge demographic shift and "ethnic" Brits don't like it. I don't think that's surprising. If a bunch of Americans moved to Saudi and the women went around in blue jeans and uncovered heads, and were more and more visible all the time, teaching school and working in offices and so forth, they would not be totally welcomed either. People fear change and that's human nature too.
The feminist in me is ticked off by the sight of a man in t-shirt and shorts accompanied by a woman covered in black, head to toe. I know I'm projecting there, too, but there it is. And the feminist in me is ticked off by the idea that women have total responsibility for sexual purity in a culture - that if men are not to be tempted, they shouldn't have to learn not to avert their eyes or control their thoughts. I know it's not supposed to be like that, Nzingha, but sometimes it looks that way. Like the articles one used to read about Danish women being told to dress more modestly than they were used to, to avoid rapes from Muslim immigrants. And those articles might have been written deliberately to inflame anti-immigrant sentiment, but it's really hard to tell.
Finally, the feminist in me suspects what you have suggested about the attitude of *some* men in Saudi, who make excuses for not allowing women to do certain things because the veils prevent them. It makes one wonder whether their insistence on the religious necessity of veiling is truly sincere. I wouldn't assume that a veiled woman doesn't veil because she wants to, but I don't know that one could assume that she does want to either.
I can see your daughters, Nzingha, looking at you and thinking that when they are grown women they will cover their hair like Mommy does, and that when the day comes that they do, it will be a happy day. I think they'll be a credit to you and I hope their modesty and correct behavior will always come from the heart, and not from coercion from insecure men.
Women's head and face should be uncovered during Hajj. And more they can't cover their face on their Hajj application photo as it specifically states. The photograph must be a full-face view in which the visa applicant is facing the camera directly. I think it is ridiculous to ask west to change their ways on religious basis when the supreme Islamic state wouldn’t honor it.
Women are performing Hajj since Prophet times and they never had to use Veil then. How come some Muslims think Veil is mandatory? If one say women has a right in the West to wear whatever they wishes then maybe it can be fullfilled?
Wa alaikum Salaam
Umm Yusuf in my studies I would agree that covering of the head and other parts of the body is a requirement. I know people differ and it isn't an issue I debate nor treat others differently about.
Laura, I would hope that one looks at pics of me with my kids (or sees us in person out and about) and thinks.. hey there is a covered woman and isn't hindered by it. In my dreams I would hope that no one even gives it any thought in regards to how I'm dressed. But that is in my dreams
I understand why many in the west would insert negative thoughts when it comes to covering women. I believe it is up to us Muslims to battle such beliefs by simply living our lives and interacting. We have to help others move beyond our extra cloth and WE also have to no be so hung up on it, but we are as well.
btw Its the woman in me that gets peeved off at men who wear shorts and t-shirts and their fellow women are covered all up. Even if it is left up to a matter of personal choice the man should support the woman. I've scolded Mr. Man "OH you THINK your going out in that and I have to be all covered up??" and it isn't that he was dressed in something wrong, just something cooler.. oh he'll be sweating like me lol.
I also am peeved as a responsible woman that men seem to be left off the hook when it comes to their sexual wrongs. Be it in any culture (we have some of the same issues in the US) I think that on many things I as a covering Muslim woman and you as a non covering Christian woman could sit down and so totally agree on. Because as we come to learn in life so much of the world is the same, even with outward differences. Which would go back to my point about children being forced to do this within a school setting instead of being taught to get rid of anything that makes them uncomfortable. We are setting up a cycle in our socities (and this isn't just a western issue) where anything we don't like to deal with we totally want to get rid of.
Mariam I followed the link you provided and it states "Women's hands and face should be uncovered in Ihram. Their heads should be covered."
They aren't supposed to veil when they make hajj or umrah, as everyone should come together w/ no status differences. But their heads are to be covered, in fact non covering women will cover for umrah or hajj.
As for identification purposes unveiling would be acceptable to most veiling women I know. Even in Sharia a veiling women is to unveil while giving testimony. Saudi IDs for women are taken when they are unveiled. BUT Saudi provides female only ID checks when you cross the border.
But none of this is the issue I'm addressing. To veil or not to veil isn't the question for me. What I rebuke is the thought that veiling women, or covering women, simply CANT DO because of their extra cloth.
Is one to veil? Should one viel? and all other related issues isn't even something I'm trying to get into. Because it isn't an issue for me, been there done that got several t-shirts. I don't do 'hijab' debates because they are unproductive and devisive.
That said I full support women who choose to veil for whatever reason and I 100% believe it does not hinder them.
Personally, I'd rather die than live a life where I had to cover my hair in public all the time, leave alone face. But I would also fight for the right of women to cover if that's what they want, for whatever reasons they want it. That's freedom of choice and everyone should have it.
Having said that, I would fight for the right of women to go uncovered everywhere if they don't want to cover up and yet are forced to, like in Saudi Arabia. It should work both ways. It's wrong for a society to impose such rules.
As-Salaamu 'alaikum
Apart from anything else, you don't do many of these everyday things while wearing a veil, do you? Chopping vegetables is something you do at home and you don't cover your face there.
QC wow.. rather die?? I find that a bit strong especially considering where you live. You don't see women living with a veil there?
also keep in mind Saudi is not a country that gives freedom of dress. In countries where freedom of dress is allowed, as well as freedom to practice ones religion they can't have IT both ways. Which is a big problem when people want to compare countries like Saudi to say the US.
wa alaikum salaam Yusuf, yea I thought the vegetables comment a bit strange. I've never chopped vegetables in public.. but I think this shows the over all views of the author regarding the veil.
asalaam alaikum warahmat Allah,
dear nzingha, i appreciate your post. it's very thought provoking, especially because the niqab thingy has been going on/off in my mind lately. i admire women who wear niqab, esp. here in the US and with all the crazy hype of the world. the female companions(ra) and wives of the Prophet (as)were of the most devoted women to this deen, they had to get their hands wet..farming, fighting, everything. they were true to their nature as women, yet worked hard to serve Allah..and they wore niqab. Aisha(ra) would cover her face whenever a man could see her..so this is why it is said that even during hajj it is not wrong to wear niqab, contrary to many people's thoughts. anyways, i just wanted to add my 2 cents in and say jazakAllah khairan for this post that goes in defense of niqab. i agree with you totally that limitations are absent....and that's why i need to consider it myself.
may Allah reward you.
suhaa
Assalaamu alaikum,
I've worn a niqab for 12 years now. The idea that I can't see with it is just absurd... if I had the money, maybe I'd offer to mail a free niqab to everyone who thinks that, so they can try it and see.
I drive with niqab, and it simply isn't in my line of vision! I don't know how to make this any clearer. It's a piece if fabric going across my forehead and my nose - not across my eyes. The frames of my eyeglasses are in my line of vision. The niqab is not.
On the other hand, the headdress that men in this region wear - depending on which style they prefer - is often protruding from the side of their head, obviously preventing them from seeing to the side. Is anyone complaining about that?
I worked as a computer consultant, before and after I started wearing the niqab. It had absolutely no effect on my ability to do my job - or to drive back and forth to my job.
(Like Nzingha said, women have ID photos taken without niqab. A photo ID card would be pointless if all the women had their faces covered. But the photography studios always have women to take women's pictures in a private area, and only women develop the film. And if someone needs to check your face, e.g. at the borders, they have a woman do it.)
I don't have the exact quote, but someone told me that a Kuwaiti scholar, Dr. Khalid Al Mathkoor (who's head of the committee which studies the laws and recomends changes to make them comply with shariah) made a great comment on this question some time before this current controversy, masha'allah. Basically, he pointed out that the most delicate surgical oprations are done with the surgeon wearing what is essentially a niqab. So if they can do brain surgery covering everything but their eyes, I think I can chop a cucumber!
So if they can do brain surgery covering everything but their eyes, I think I can chop a cucumber!>>
LOL One would hope so
Nzingha,
First, thank you for sharing your experiences.
I just want to comment on your observations on the effectiveness of a teacher while wearing a niqab.
1. eye contact- the veil does not hinder a woman from making eye contact with her students. Her eyes are in fact visible, probably more so than one that has tinted glasses, or very thick glasses.
fair enough.
although, what happens if women wear one-sided glasses? what if an imaam declares that gazing into the eye is considered impure? where do you draw the line between the eye, skin and hair? doesn't it seem arbitrary then?
2. seeing the lips move- in a classroom setting one can't assume that a child will always be in a position to see a teachers lips move. And what of a teacher that has a facial deformity where her lips do not move as mine would. Such is the case in children's school right now, she is fully capable of teaching although her mouth, due to an accident, doesn't move as freely as everyonelse. Children also aren't always in face to face view of the teacher, the teacher isn't static after all. She will move, from one child to another, from one area of the classroom to another, from forward facing to having her back towards the entire class. What must be had is an ability to be heard over other voices at times, and to be clear in ones pronunciation.
the teacher does not have a facial deformity by choice. but women wearing niqabs do have a choice.
3. reading facial expressions- I find this to betrulyely minor issue when it comes to educating children. I recall several teachers I had over the years who looked more like a stiff board than an active human being, yet I learned from them. Add in that many facial expressions can be 'seen' through a veil without seeing them physically.
"Learned from them" is not the only requirement for teaching. A stiff-board teacher is a sub-standard teacher, because unless he can convey the passion for his subject through his voice, he only serves as a mouthpiece for the knowledge contained in some text. I do not wish for stiff board teachers because I do not just want to "learn from them", but I want to learn well from them. You are right, stiff teachers are not fired from teaching their jobs, so it's perhaps not fair to fire a woman for wearing a niqab. But consider this, doesn't wearing a niqab automatically cut off another line of communication between children and teachers?
4. building a relationship- A teacher student relationship is not hindered because one wears a veil. Unless the child is bothered by the veil in general.
If you wear the veil for the religious reason that you do not want to incite impure thoughts in men who would otherwise gaze at you, then what do you say to the men who would gaze and have none of those thoughts? For that matter, at a school while teaching children, what message are you conveying to children (let's consider them adolescents for argument's sake) when you cover you
although, what happens if women wear one-sided glasses? what if an imaam declares that gazing into the eye is considered impure? where do you draw the line between the eye, skin and hair? doesn't it seem arbitrary then?>>
This gets into the debate on the issue of the veil itself. Is it a must for Muslim women? As I said early on I'm not going to debate that issue. The question is, does the veil actually hinder a womans ability to make eye contact with others? If it does not than isn't the objection incorrect on its very basis?
But again I'm not debating if there is choice and what is the best choice. The question for me here is does the fact that one doesn't see the mouth of a veiling women hinder her from teaching?
btw I don't want stiff board teachers either, they aggrivate me, especially in the setting of children. However such teachers are not fired from their jobs, deemed incapable or other wise hindered in their field.
I think the rest of your message got cut off so I won't even try to guess what you wanted to convery. Maybe you can retype it??
Thanx for joining the discussion.
Assalaamu alaikum,
Just a note about teachers wearing niqab... A lot of the teachers at my sons' school wear niqab, but they don't wear it in the classroom, because there are only children and other women. If a man has to come in for something, they'll put the niqab for that few minutes. It's really not an issue.
And after a certain age, boys have only men teachers, so there's no issue about a woman with niqab teaching teenaged boys.
In the case of that teacher in England, she asked to work with other women, but they didn't want to do that and said it would be sex discrimination. I can understand that in a non-Muslim society, they wouldn't feel that they had to accommodate that request, but it's probably not because it would actually be difficult. I don't know about the UK, but isn't it mostly women teachers who work with young children anyway?
i just finished reading the article in the link below and i was thinking about what you said!
http://news.aol.com/crime/story/...9990002?
cid=431
leandra she should have unvieled in that instance. This is in following with shairah as well.
Dear Nzingha,
Thank you so much for your writings. As a Christian woman living in America we are fed so many stereotypes about muslims. I personally do not know any muslim women and therefore all that I know of them is through the media. Sadly, the view we often get from the media is that muslim women are quiet, unthinking woman. It is so encouraging to know that this is so untrue! That there are many muslim woman who are educated, inteligent, willing to dialogue and follow their faith at the same time.
Thank you for your writing - I look forward to reading more.
And a bit off topic, I read your older post about compound living http://nzinghas.blogspot.com/200...und-
living.html and found it to be very informative! Thanks!
Nickie welcome! Quiet women.. lol.. ok. I know the image is given because the idea is to keep the world thinking we have no rights whatsoever and we are equal to slaves within our own commuties. But quiet.. I've met very few quiet Muslim women in my life time.
I think blogs are a great way to "meet" even if it is virtual others of different faiths, cultures, and lives in order to humanize everyone. I think that is the problem with much of the world.. we fail to humanize 'others' and that is a problem for all.
well written. bravo!
I do wear niqab in Saudi Arabia, which at my age and compared to the girls I hang out with is quite a big deal. However, I won't lie to you. I only do this for cultural reasons. To say that my extended family is only "conservative" is an understatement. They are not religious, mind you. They just really haven't seen it any other way. Which is what makes it so hard.. I walk around in this knowing Im not getting an OUNCE of ajjer. It gets frustrating. To practice something you're not quite convinced of solely because you have NO other choice. The minute I know there's 0% chance that my Khallah or my 3ammah might see me, I get rid of it. And what saddens me is it's people like me who make it seem women are forced to veil and need to be liberated. I know, kinda off topic but I just felt like sharing.
Nice post Nzingha, I'm going to show this to my sister who's currently a clinical labs intern and who also opts to veil (mind you, my khallah and 3ammah don't frequent that hospital-- so she does it for HER) and btw, in college (which was not segregated either) she was the star student-- yes she was veiled back then too. Now, she's the only one who's been offered by the hospital a full paid scholarship to whichever uni she chooses, ABROAD.(say Masha'allah people :-D)
I wish I had read your blog when I first started blogging a little over a month ago. You've already eloquently touched on so many of the topics that are on my mind and with similar feelings and reactions. I think I'll need to go through your archives from beginning to end before I post anything else. I have a feeling I'll be linking to you often. Keep up the good work.
PS. I wanted to send this as an email but the email link on your profile view goes nowhere. Thought you may want to know seeing as how I'm sure you don't email yourself often
Great blog and have so enjoyed reading everyones comments. Thank you. I am from the UK. I wear niqab. Just today I was turned down for a teaching job because of my niqab. But I wasn't even given a chance they decided when they saw me. The interview was all about my niqab and not me and my talent. THIS WAS IN A MUSLIM COUNTRY. IN THE UK THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN DISCRIMINATION.
Women should veil normally in accordance with islam. Prophet Mohamad asked women to NOT veil during haj WITH NIQAB because a niqab is tailored to the size of her face. Durinng hajj no tailored clothes are allowed (men wear loose cloths to cover themselves). But Prophet Mohammad (pBUh) did not stop her covering her face with a loose piece of clothe which is not tailored. Am I making myself clear? Do you see the subtle difference.
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