Nzingha's Soapbox
The entire idea of women needing a "guardian" repulses me. This smacks of slavery - women as chattel, rather than as human.
One Saudi blogger I've followed has had her younger brothers repeatedly "forbid" her to use the internet, as they suspected she MIGHT have spoken to someone male who was not one of the family.
These are the kinds of things that really get my blood boiling. I would like to visit saudia someday inshallah(for visiting not umrah/hajj) but here's the thing, I have to travel with my 2 daughters without my husband, so, if I had a son, I would have been able to get *in* since he is my *guardian*, well, what about women like us with no sons and who can't travel with their husbands??? This is just BS. Am sorry to say this but it just doesn't make sense. A grown woman is an adult who makes all the decisions and someone expects a child to make that decision for their mothers/sisters?? Whoever made that rule has to review it and come up with new changes.
I have a similar situation in my own family where a sister-in-law is widowed with 8 children. The youngest child happens to be the only son and therefore he is the guardian and mahrem of them.
It really is absurd and non-sensical. Glad you posted on this subject.
I find the whole idea insulting. To consider women like perpetual children is so degrading.
I totally agree with you, Nzingha. Another great post. The whole subject is so unbelievable and ridiculous. What is wrong with this picture? None of it makes sense at all.
Not sure if I've left a comment b4 for you but definitely glad to have found you. Very insightful reading for someone so totally ignorant of Saudi ways, but still looking forward to visiting this beautiful country.
i don't understand this, because one of the strongest opnions about the age of a mahram who accompanies a traveling woman is that they have to have reached puberty. the other opnions are that there is no age requirement and one that says the age of discertions. however, if i were in her shoes i would prefer to have my young son as the gaurdian as opposed to someone else who may oppress me or not make theirselves avaiulable. hey at least with the kid she can tell him what to do 
Great post - one that left me totally baffled. I even thought about it last night, wondering just how I would feel if K1 were my guardian. When I first read that you hub suggested she let her son be the guardian, I thought he had a good point. But as I sat and really thought about it - absolutely NOT.
Once that kid who is innocent and sweet becomes a man (especially and Arab man), things change majorly. Sounds mean, but witnessing how they can turn like a flip of a switch, absolutely no.flipping.way.
I hope that your s-i-l does finally sort things out. Must feel so helpless for her. 
I have made mention of things and how they are in Saudia to family here and they are in disbelief. It still doesn't register with them that women can't drive. Wait 'til I tell them about this one...
When I lived in Saudi, the mahram issue was the most perplexing and infuriating thing I had to deal with as an American woman. Above and beyond the dress code, seperate resturant sections, the muttawa and the driving issue.
The idea that every time I wanted to travel outside the country, to visit family or to simply be a tourist (Saudi is close to some great trips!) I had to have my husband take care of all the paperwork. (not to mention that my husban's company held my passport)
I did know one Canadian couple in which an already difficult marriage turned violent in KSA. She wanted to leave him and return to Canada, but he prevented her from doing so for almost a year because he held power over her as her mahram. Finally she went to the Canadian consulate (difficult also because he controled the money and she had to finally come to friends to find her a ride) and they intervened with her hushand and he allowed her & their children to leave.
It was a very nasty situation, which should not happen to any woman anywhere in the world.
Strange. Absurd. Bizarre. Whatever happened to common sense??? It is the mothers responsibility to take care of her children; not the other way around. btw will the child be her guardian for life or will she ever not need a guardian ? And can anyone pls tell me the exact reason for a guardian and if it required in Islam then why do Islamic other countries not have this system?
sew- so not unusual that a Saudi girl would have that problem. Younger siblings 'forbid' their sisters, even grown, from going outside. The males and their powers in Saudi start off very young.
sf- You'd have problems getting a visa to travel in the kingdom let along actually going about the kingdom.
Bedu- I feel for that boy as well. The financial burdens placed upon him are going to be huge at some point in his life.
Sharon- Welcome There are some great things to see, some wonderful people to meet and some experiences that must be had only in Saudi. So I say enjoy yourself and learn about the entire culture, not just bits of it.
UmmAdam- Don't hold your breath. Becuase even a child can get crazy with his mother. An American woman, widow, husband was saudi, had sons who forbid her to travel. so she got smart and moved to Bahrain and told them if they want to see her come visit them. Boys, even those raised by foriegn mothers, go crazy w/ their control at some point. Which is why a woman should be making her own decisions. We should not be the subject of the whims of some man, or boy especially a son how hurtful is that. If someone suggested Jihad by my guardian I would be highly insulted.
L- your right on point, once the boy becomes a man he can crazy and decide he will forbid any female from doing anything. Happens all the time, it is quite sad especially when it is your own son that goes loony.
sun- Don't ever give up your passport, we don't. And now you can go to fed ex and they'll process exit reentry visas for ya
Sounds like the Canadian guy went crazy. Guys get into saudi and think they can keep control of women, no matter their nationality. Her being a forienger helped, if she was married to a saudi where she would be.. and her kids :
Samir- Common sense does not exist in Saudi, and for the most part in the Gulf countries. A Saudi woman will always need a male guardian ALWAYS. She can be 65 and still need some mans permission to make a decision, over herself, her property, her finances and even her health care.
as for the guardian issue it is really only in relation to marriage. A woman should have a male guardian over see that she isn't entering into a bad marriage. Now the Hanafi actually state that this is only to the age of majority for the woman, because marriage is a contract, and she as a full grown adult woman can enter into any other contract without a man (well not in Saudi). This is a view I agree with. Other schools of thought differ and some as we see in Saudi go to a whole other extreme and abuse it and define it in regards to every aspect of life.
there is also the question of women travelling alone without a mahram, someone who she is married to or can't marry (father, son, uncle). This is a major point of debate, as to how man days, how far a trip and current safety in regards to travelling is it needed ect. Unless I'm travelling in war torn countries or through dangerous areas, I agree w/ the more liberal of views in regards to women travelling. And I do say this is a decision she can make on her own.
Thanks for the detailed explanation but I have one more question to ask regarding this issue. Lets assume that a husband has "officially" forbid her Saudi wife to travel abroad. But she somehow manages to get out of KSA, like illegally or something. Then can she be given a visa or something from a Saudi Embassy abroad ?? And what should a woman do if she wants to get out of an awful marriage but she cant get the approval of her mahram???? That actually makes it 2 questions but i hope somebody clarifies this
I know eh! That's why was telling dh inshallah we make the trip together(his brother is in jeddah) but am still baffled why I couldn't travel alone. My brother is in Bahrain, maybe I could go there and try to get in with him, sigh... this is just crazy!!!
Samir- she wouldn't need a "saudi" visa as she is a Saudi citizen. Lets say she got a passport on her own (lol) and she snuck out like in a container like that well known abused Saudi news woman whose name escapes me right now. She would be in a bit of a problem for illegally leaving the country. Sure she could get back in but would have hell to pay upon her return. She could travel w/in the GCC and obtain a visa to other countries on her own.
Women are abused here all the time, she can seek a divorce but will have to litteraly deal with a 3 ring circus to obtain one. Even with proven abuse it can go on for a long time because the man decides to not show. Judges have been known to force women to stay in the marriage as well. She needs 'permission' from a man to divorce which is opposed to what Islam really states according to this. Women who are abused have little to no recourse other than sparse shelters where she'll lead a miserable life subject to the fear of her husband, or other male relatives taking her back home or worse. Even hospitals are powerless in fact according to the law if the womans injuries don't put her in the hospital for a certain period of time no charges are taken up against the husband. So a man can beat his wife, break her arm, have it set in the emergency room, refuse to talk to social services and threaten a law suit if one suggests he abused his wife. Or he could stand there and say "I beat the crap out of my wife on a daily basis. Set her arm so she can get back to her duties at the house" and so t will be. She will be released to him from the ER.
Sickened yet? It gets even worse when you start asking about children.
While there are many many wonderful people in Saudi.. the laws need a major major overhual.
sf- you can get a visit visa from your brother in jeddah and not need your husband to travel with you. Your brother can act as your mahram upon your arrival not an issue. You being a foriegner allows you a bit more freedom than a saudi gal.
Mr. Man is from jeddah, loads of things to see and do there. And than you can just fly out and come to Bahrain w/out an issue. Easier for you even w/out your man.
I meant if the Saudi Embassy could assist her in getting a visa of the country.
Samir- most likely not because she is travelling w/out the permission of her gaurdian so she couldn't seek help from a Saudi Embassy for things like that.
"Guys get into saudi and think they can keep control of women, no matter their nationality."
Ain't that the truth. I have sat in groups of women who are there with there husbands 'temporarily" while they talk about how the Saudi culture/laws turn their husband into something unrecognizable. For non-Saudi women, the driving issue is HUGE because most of us cannot afford a personal driver and for that reason become totally dependent on her husband, which then turns an "equal" relationship into something very skewed in a very basic way. We become trapped in our houses or the compound.
I have a great husband who never ever refused to take me somewhere I wanted to go, but I had friends whose husbands just did not or would not "get it." If they did not feel like taking their wife somewhere, they didn't and for a western woman to be trapped in such a way is not an easy thing to accept.
Ex-pat marriages either become more solid or totally collapse in KSA-- the culture does not permit middle ground because if there is trouble the wife has very little recourse. One thing we all noted is the very high rate of divorce among Saudis--I wonder if you would/could write about that at some time. I note it because such a high divorce rate is unusual in non-Gulf Arab countries. In my Syrian (born, but US citizen) husband, divorce is literally unheard of.
I am confused about not giving up your passport--as far as I know, all non-saudis are required to give their passports (and their family members) to their employers). I don't know one single ex-pat who has ever held onto their passport. Which was a pain the rear for me when I wanted to travel.
can't your husband be her guradian as he is her brother?(should work even is saudi)Idea of 12 years old guardian is ridiculous.
sunrunner- I don't know one American or European that gives up their passport. Maybe for some government jobs you would have to but for most private companies we don't give them up.
And I've never waited on Mr. Man to drive me anywhere. When I didn't have a driver I used the compound bus or taxi. I know many women who won't use taxis but I've never encountered any real problems.
Maria- yes he can after she proves her father is dead. Than he could become her guardian but I think he would have to show up. Maybe they can get her passport while she is here.
Nzingha,
How would it work then with traveling in Saudi for a Saudi woman and a forgein male? On an episode of "Anthony Bourdain: No Reservations" he came to Saudi and was shown around by the woman who suggested he go there. She owns the only female run company in the kingdom though- a film company or something... I don't remember her name.
Also- and completely off topic:
I was reading something in the paper today about the 'mythical tomb' of Eve being in Saudi. Anyway- the article mentioned that women can't enter cemetaries in Saudi? If this is true- why?
Kikilia
Kikilia- the woman had special permission to show that man around. He would need special permission to film in Saudi and I'm sure she worked it out. She might own the only Female owned film company in the Kingdom, but she isn't the only female the owns and runs companies in this kingdom. There is a long list of busieness owners among Saudi women, from fortune 500 on down.
Not visiting cemetaries is a religious issue. Of the most strict view is that women are not allowed to visit graves. Of the most moderate they are. Saudi holds to the most strict view.
What is the basis that women shouldn't visit graves?
Thanks for helping me understand this btw.
Kikilia
One thing I always insist on is that my kids all have passports and they're kept up to date. You never know when you might have to travel for one reason or another.
My brother is in Bahrain, my brother in law is the one who is in jeddah, can I get a visa through him(my brother in law??).
kikilia- culturally the ways in which some women behaved at graves w/ grieving (beating themselves ect) is viewed as wrong. Hence women are prohibited, among certain circles.
KhadijaTeri- are there travel restrictions for women and children similiar to Saudi in Lybia?
sf- I'll ask and find out and post back here.
Commenting by HaloScan
