♫ Tie a red ribbon round the ole extradition request.
Thats twice today that dumb song has come up.
Excellent! You have a penchant for close ups OW!
You can read the fine print: AGGRAVATED HOMICIDE
Actually, aggravated homicide is too benign. It should read "act of terrorism - murder of 73 people by blowing up civilian airliner" And you know it has to be a closeup - otherwise we'll have a certain visitor showing up saying "you can't read it - how do you know what it is" 
Funny, I never saw the one of these that the U.S. presumeably would have sent to Afghanistan. Wouldn't it be nice if someone came by (maybe a troll) and let us where it could be found. It MUST exist, right? Surely the U.S. wouldn't have bombed Afghanistan without first making sure they were complying with all the legal formalities.
On second thought, maybe they'll say it was affixed to the nose of the first cruise missile fired into Kabul and was therefore blown up
I was going to raise a question about this on the other thread where we've been conversing, but the new picture led me to ask it here. (I'll have some more on the other soon; I've been busy.)
What is your source for these pictures?
How do you manage to lay your hands upon pictures of internal government documents? I somehow doubt the US Dept of State is sending this to you - so the source has to be someone in the Venezuelan goverment - who?
This also occurred to me after seeing your high-quality Barrio Adentro shots, but only after visiting ABN (yes, I do read that site) and noticing (my nickname fits, no?) that the quality of the same pictures on their site sucked. Made me wonder, so I looked around some other sites - barrioadentro, msds, alopresidente, gobiernoenlinea - and couldn't even find another picture of the same, let alone one with the quality of yours.
So what's your secret? Who do you have on the inside?
"Just Noticing"--dude, when you have Jesus and Bolivar on your side (not to mention Fidel C.) than you can many anything happen.
It's a revolution thing, bro--or maybe you wouldn't understand.
Hehe, keep the pictures coming OW.
Also, im been off for a while and its great to find so many new quality-posts to read.
JN:
I'm not sure what you are trying to get at. You don't have to try to figure out who gave them to me - no-one gave me them. They are pictures I took myself. Actually, the second Alo Presidente picture I didn't take - I handed my camera to someone and she took it. But I assure you they are my pictures taken with my camera - a Kodak EasyShare LS753 (5 megapixel) if you must know.
It was requested that I send the Alo Presidente pictures to someone and they in turn sent them to ABN. So ABN got the pictures, indirectly, from me. And when I took the pictures of the extradition paperwork I actually WAS thinking of you - thats why I took the close up. Hope you are flattered.
So hopefully this will make it clear that I don't "have" anyone on the inside. Unless, of course, you consider me to be on the inside.
OW, I did see that you edited your first comment here, and figured you were thinking of me. Thanks - I feel so loved!
So you are welcome on the set of Alo Presidente - with camera, no less. Plus you have direct access to one of the most significant documents in the recent possession of the Venezuelan government. (That's implied, since you didn't say you had to ask someone's permission.)
I know that I will never be on the set of Alo Presidente, even if I did ask. And I can only imagine how my request to photograph the Posada extradition documents would have been received! Having access to either such thing might not mean much. But both? You are very much a person on the inside.
In fact, I can only conclude that you are an employee of the Venezuelan government.
The jig is up OW! Come out with your hands in the air!
Will the real OW please stand up.
JN:
Why is it of such utter importance to you to know at what level of involvement OW or any person for that matter, has or does not have with official sources? Why do you find the idea of independent discovery, so far fetched that you must conclude ties to the nefarious Ven. Gov?
What Im trying to say is: it matters not how the information was obtained only that it was obtained, and is being displayed. Discussions should concentrate on the information not the gathering process. But suit yourself - I like good drama plots myself.
JN
You seem to be making inferences from very limited information.
You, of all people, I didn't think capable of that. After all, for MCM, you don't think it possible to infer anything about her beliefs based on her being in Miraflores on April 12, 2002 (I know I wasn't invited), and her being filmed (by anti-Chavez TV stations) after Romero asked people to sign in support of the just read Carmona decree, standing on line and signing the decree. But you seem to think we can't infer anything about that or that she was just a confused tourist there by happenstance who thought she was signing a guest book....
Anyways, enough of this - I need to stop typing and get my hands up before Pulpo shoots me.
OW, talk about evasive! Afraid to answer a simple question?
And I distinguished your situation from MCM when I said "Having access to either such thing might not mean much. But both?" (Was overlooking that simply poor reading comprehension, or part of the evasion?) MCM at Miraflores was one event, but you were present at two, in close succession, which have nothing to do with each other. The events were not linked, which indicates that the link is you.
Plus there were those at Miraflores who were indeed simply attending, as indicated by photos on this blog. Was there anyone there during the AP filming that wasn't a Ven govt employee? Did anyone who wasn't a Ven (or US) govt employee ever get their hands on the extradition documents? Possible, but unlikely - and the chance of the same non-employee doing both is too small to estimate.
EP, you are quite right, the question does not matter with respect to the photo. (BTW, if you insist on having my thoughts, I would guess that "terrorism" is not an extraditable offense under the treaty, so putting that down would have gotten it rejected on technical grounds. The name of the crime seems irrelevant - and I have no sympathy for murderers of any tint.)
But to take the wider view (you're not narrow-minded, are you?) it does raise questions about the nature of the blog, and the neutrality/objectivity of the bloghost. After all, if Alek Boyd (named on the portada of this blog) were receiving foreign government money (I believe I have read that exact accusation before), would that affect his credibility? Would it make him a sellout, and his blog pure propaganda?
OW's day job doesn't invalidate the photographs. But it does raise bigger questions, and I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Evading a question - what question was posed? The only question I saw was where did I get the pictures, which was answered. The rest was you making inferences (not good ones I might add)
"Plus there were those at Miraflores who were indeed simply attending, as indicated by photos on this blog"
Please point out the relevant photos.
"Was there anyone there during the AP filming that wasn't a Ven govt employee? "
If you paid any attention to Alo Presidente you would know the majority of people who attend are not government employees as was the case with this particular one too.
"Alek Boyd (named on the portada of this blog)"
Boyd is indeed very credible and open about what he wants - the undemocratic overthrow of Venezuelas eleted president and a military dictatorship. I made a post on that. So his problem is not credibility - I believe him when he says he thinks Venezuela needs a Pinochet. I just don't share his views.
"Evading a question - what question was posed? The only question I saw was where did I get the pictures, which was answered. The rest was you making inferences (not good ones I might add)"
So the question was implied. I assumed you would be able to deduce it - my bad (or your evasion).
Are you, or are you not, an employee (including contractor) of the Venezuelan government?
Jeepers, you don't even respond my real requests and I have to respond your "implied" ones. Fortunately for you I'm accustomed to double standards.
"Are you, or are you not, an employee (including contractor) of the Venezuelan government?"
Nope. I don't work for the Venezuelan government, I'm not a contractor of theirs, and I don't have any association with them other than I support them and what they are trying to accomplish The people I DO work for would definitly not be happy about this blog which is why it is anonymous.
So we're back to having someone on the inside. Yes, AP has lots of outsiders (on most shows, but inside a clinic with limited space?), but you pointedly avoid the issue of access to the Posada papers.
So who is your source/contact? No need to name names, and I'm really more curious about what makes you so special as to get invited to such select occasions. You're much more on the inside of things than just getting someone to send you pictures. How? Why do they trust you?
ow: "Boyd is indeed very credible and open about what he wants - the undemocratic overthrow of Venezuelas eleted president and a military dictatorship."
Make no mistake about it Boyd the change he wants will come by any means necessary inlcuidng terror. Here is evidence of his intent:
"Another thing Daniel, I have never said that the solution is pot
banging or going to rallies. Fear is the most powerful of weapons. Use it."
aleksander boyd | Homepage | 04.06.05 - 11:12 am | #
JN:
"So who is your source/contact? ... what makes you so special as to get invited to such select occasions. ... How? Why do they trust you?"
Damn Dude! enquiring minds really really really want to know.
Isn't is amazing how enquiring people can be on some things and not on others? My posting some pics is cause for a full blown inquiry but how MCM managing to get admitted to the actual swearing in ceremony of Carmona on A12 doesn't raise an eyebrow!! You would think JN would wonder why they trusted her to be present there.
Anyways, I'm not outing myself until I get big bucks like Mark Felt did 
And really JN, being in Venezuela you should know things are much easier than you are making them out to be.
Pulpo:
Thats why I give Boyd some credit. What he thinks is what most of the others think too - he at least has the balls to come out and say it.
"And really JN, being in Venezuela you should know things are much easier than you are making them out to be"
Are they? Hugo Chavez has the biggest security detail in the hemisphere, denounces frequent threats against his life, and you're trying to tell me it's easy to get within a few feet of him with a camera. (And fake camera guns are decades old.) Or that it's easy to get your hands on as controversial a document as the Posada extradition papers. Did they check you for matches or a lighter first? Machado was one of hundreds. You were one of much fewer - or perhaps even the only non-Venezuelan government employee to have such access.
You're still evading. What makes you so special to these folks?
Shhhhhh
Did you hear that OW?
There it is again - did you hear it?
Shhhhh Shhhhh Shhhhh listen - listen again.
http://www.naturesongs.com/cricket1.wav
LOL
JN: I guess the reason this thread is starting to get boring is you keep assuming I'm special. Now of course, my mother thinks I'm special, but I don't know that anyone else does. I'm just a regular citizen and member of civil society - just like MCM. It suprises you that I got these photos just like it surprises me that MCM got invited to Miraflores on A12. What can I say.
ow, the difference is that neither you nor I can explain why MCM got invited to Miraflores, but you can explain why you got invited where you went. You're surprised only about MCM, while I'm surprised about both, because that's where we're on the outside.
Are you going to cop out by turning this into a discussion of the definition of special? The real question here is what makes you different from, for example, me. If I went to the AP crew, or to the MRE, flashing my passport and a camera and asking to see Hugo or the Posada extradition papers, would they let me in?
No matter what word you or I use, there's something someone likes about you. Something that gets you into secure places, and around secure documents, where I could never go. What is it?
I think people are underestimating how far a short skirt and high heels will get you in Venezuela. Maybe thats what did it for both MCM and OW
LOL
"I think people are underestimating how far a short skirt and high heels will get you in Venezuela."
Amen!
You speak the truth Sandy!
Sandy, please chill with the comments like that. I appreciate your partitipation but that is gettin into territory that people will find offensive.
JN: Yes, even you could probably get in to Alo Presidente - unless you show up in a Gente de Petroleo t-shirt or something. Give it a try and you can come back and tell us what happens.
As to the Posada papers I did not see them in the MRE. I would tell you where but I'm not sure the people who were displaying them were supposed to be doing that and to avoid getting them in trouble I'm not saying.
"I'm not sure the people who were displaying them were supposed to be doing that"
Now this is precisely what I am talking about. Where isn't important. These people did you a special favor, one that might get them in trouble if it were known.
They wouldn't do it for me, would they? So why did they do it for you?
Absolutely they would have. See it wasn't done for me. It was a public showing off some people who probably wanted to impress others - "look what we have". I would guess 500+ saw it and given the location the great majority of the people that saw it (and got pics) were anti-Chavez. So statistically speaking I guess you would have had better odds than I did But I was there and you weren't - so it goes.
500+ people? A "public showing"? And yet somehow you think they will get in trouble if you say where! (Because I'm sure those other 500 have all kept their mouth shut, right?)
Do make up your mind on this one - it definitely doesn't work both ways.
"Because I'm sure those other 500 have all kept their mouth shut, right?)"
Do those others have blogs and post their pictures on the internet? I don't know. But I know I'm not going to be the one to create the problem.
Actually though, this should give you an idea. Maybe when you're chilling at the Sambil tonight you should just ask around and you'll find someone who will know about this.
"But I know I'm not going to be the one to create the problem"
Because doing so would give away your secret. That's the true problem - for you.
This blog can soon be accused of defamation (unless Sandy was right). Somebody within the government was doing something that was not supposed to be done? Absolutely False!!!. Lier!. Contrarevolucionario!.Salta-Talanquera! Desestabilizador mediatico! Traidor a la Patria, Oligarch, Fanatic right-winger! Pinochet-like !!!..............
We know perfectly well that everything the government does is correct, always. So, OW, ponte las pilas and publish here the proof of the detailed expenditure of all the social programs to help the poor that the government has implemented. You have to make clear that nobody, nobody, nobody is stealing any money or anything like that. Also you better publish the PDVSA numbers in a way that any external auditor would be satisfied with them. That would shut all those enemies of the people and vendepatrias up. Deal?
JN Yes I have lots, and lots of juicy secrets. Thats the whole point of having a blog - to have and discuss (or not discuss) sectrets.
Alarmed, are you trying to get me booted off of Blogger by exceding bandwidth limitations?
And anyways, I don't have to make it clear that no-one in the government is stealing money. Its the vendepatrias that have to prove the reverse. So far they haven't been succesful, but I'm sure they'll keep trying - nothing shuts them up.
Just Noticing-
Now I have a visual of "ow" pulling a Super Soaker Easyshare on Hugo during "Aloooooooo Presidente" and Hugo having a Tom Cruise-like fit.
With "ow" ending up somewhere nastier than in a London courtroom.
But, I suppose "ow" is to Chavez rather as Cruise is L. Ron Hubbard:
hopelessly devoted acolyte.
ow- The people I DO work for would definitly not be happy about this blog which is why it is anonymous -ow.
Are the folks at the British COuncil, the British Embassy, or some celogio internacional that thin-skinned?
Why are you even working for a counterrevolutionary concern, when you could be construyendo patria?
"Pound Sterling will do /Nicely thank you?"
OW==you are doing something correct to pull these vendepatria cretins out from under their rightwing rocks.
Keep it up. With Jesus and Bolivar on our side, we will not be beaten.
And to the vendepatrias out there--see you in Miami suckers. LOL
Hey OW How about next week you take a snapshot of the wart on Chavez' left Butt cheek to seal the deal with these morons.
Amazing the level of ignorance - listen folks - accept the fact that this blog has superior technological advantages over previously visited blogs and concentrate on the subject matter so that we can discuss Posadas eventual imprisonment.
Globalization it is said in theory should benefit all sides equally when not tampered with - Maybe you are seeing tech work for those who need it. Have I said suffer recently, methinks not - Suffer.
Amazing the level of ignorance - listen folks - accept the fact that this blog has superior technological advantages over previously visited blogs and concentrate on the subject matter so that we can discuss Posadas eventual imprisonment.
Hehe yup. But when the oppo folks cant handle the facts they shoot the messenger, just like with Eva.
This time they blaim OW for being to good, you should be flattered OW!
I also saw in another blog that they are pissed that OW write to many posts!
I can only say keep up the good work!
OW, just to remind you:
Next Saturday you have brunch with Chavez and the intelligence dept.
Monday evening you will be dining, drinking and discussing the Bolivarian Circle pillaging plans of all wealthy neighborhoods.
Please keep these engagemnents in mind.
Ugggh, I hate those Saturday working brunches. When am I ever going to get a day off! Well, ok, I'm a Bolivarian, so I'll just have to suck it up
ow, here are the things you’re trying to cover up:
1. You don’t just get on Alo Presidente, but invited into a small clinic (already crowded with medical equipment, then with the whole tech crew, doesn’t leave much space for members of the public, “the majority” of whom were obviously outside) with camera in hand and no restrictions on how to use it, then asked to contribute photos to ABN. The level of trust afforded you is way beyond that of the person who just attends.
2. You get a very select picture (one that apparently has never been published elsewhere, despite 500+ people who “got pics” of it) at what you call a “public showing” but are afraid to provide any details. Not to mention the fact that “the great majority” were anti-Chavez, which means these folks who showed it off were taking a huge risk – literally putting their jobs on the line – for a little attention from strangers. I don’t know anyone that stupid – unless it’s you for expecting anyone to buy that crap.
3. “The people I DO work for would definitly not be happy about this blog.” Elliv hit on a key point here: the number of posts you make. They don’t piss me off at all, but make me ask questions. How do you manage to run a blog, with so many contributions during work hours, and keep it secret from your employer? How do you even get your day job done? Simple answer – your employer expects you to run this blog.
4. “as far as who I've convinced - don't know. Maybe no one.” Your words. So who runs a blog without trying to convince anyone of anything? Not someone ideological – that’s all about convincing others of ideas. Not someone who cares about Venezuela, who would know people need to get behind good ideas to ensure momentum for the future. The person who doesn’t care if what they are doing changes anyone’s mind is the person who has already received his reward. Kilometrico reads you like a book.
It’s amazing how your sycophants criticize rightwing (with little evidence of same) vendepatrias, but cozy right up to a leftist sellout like yourself. “I'm accustomed to double standards,” you say – yes, those of your fawning commenters.
I think El Pulpo was on to something when he hinted at what you hear in the silence. As Simon and Garfunkel said (The Sound of Silence):
People talking without speaking
People hearing without listening
People writing songs that voices never share
And no one dared
Disturb the sound of silence
That’s what this blog is all about. People talking, but not saying a thing, and people reading the words, but not caring that statements like “I don't have to make it clear that no-one in the government is stealing money. Its the vendepatrias that have to prove the reverse” enable non-transparency in government, since it’s “their” government that’s not being transparent. No one dares expect Chavez to be better, by just doing a simple thing that every democratic government has an obligation – to the people – to do.
The method doesn’t matter, only the goals. In other words, the ends justify the means. Which leaves you with no basis for complaint when a government with different goals uses the same methods. But you will complain, and you will be a hypocrite. No wonder you’re "accustomed to double standards." You live them. And you don’t know how to live without them.
JN:
Curious how you jumpt to all sorts of conclusions about me based on very limited information yet when MCM shows up in Miraflores on A12 you claim you don't have a clue. You don't even want to venture a guess. Then again considering how far off base your guesses are on me maybe its better that you don't.
And I like how you react when presented with information you don't like or don't want to accept you just assume it can't possibly be true. Definitely makes you a escaulido in good standing.
How do I maintain the blog. Easy, just spend lots of time in front of a computer monitor. I've noticed you spend lots of time typing up long comments on different blogs under various monikers - is your employer paying you do that? Or are you maybe just another person whose productivity has declined since the advent of the internet?
And here is a hint about Web Logs - they are best when written for oneself. If you write for yourself you will stay motivated and do better - if others find it interesting or usefull so be it. Hope this helps if you ever set up your own ("An Interested Observer" would be a cool title for a blog).
And as far as Kilo reading people like a book I doubt it. I don't think he reads books - or even reads much at all. Just my impression.
JN:
If you want group think then you should go back to your old haunts - you know, the ones where anyone who thinks differently gets banned. Thats why Pulpo, Jim R., Flanker, etc. don't step in your BS here - they know the deal.
The Chavez government is the most transparent in Venezuelan history (the internet helps). Baseless and unsubstantiated charges won't change that. Thats why when I asked Kilo about his evidence on corruption he had to change the subject to Zimbabwe.
Quick, JN, what was the $200 billion spent by the US in Iraq used on? Oh, you don't know? So I guess it must have been stolen,right? And that Teddy Kennedy himself said so definitely proves it, right.
Ahhhh Just noticing making leaps of logic like if it were Mario Bros,
"(one that apparently has never been published elsewhere, despite 500+ people who “got pics” of it)"
He said people saw it not that they "got pics" mmm'kay?
"How do you even get your day job done? Simple answer – your employer expects you to run this blog."
Holy crap are you new to the internet? I have seen people post more about social bullshit and still be employed, are they emplyed to post social bullshit. Again MAJOR leap of logic.
"The person who doesn’t care if what they are doing changes anyone’s mind is the person who has already received his reward. Kilometrico reads you like a book."
WOW, I love my country but I read and comment on this blog for fun, I guess Chavez paid me too.
"
That’s what this blog is all about. People talking, but not saying a thing, and people reading the words, but not caring that statements like “I don't have to make it clear that no-one in the government is stealing money. Its the vendepatrias that have to prove the reverse” enable non-transparency in government, since it’s “their” government that’s not being transparent. No one dares expect Chavez to be better, by just doing a simple thing that every democratic government has an obligation – to the people – to do."
Hey at least we get pictures 
, an we can have unrestricted debates since the so called "pure" bloggers ban anyone that disagree with them.
Imagine if I went to their site and accused them of getting NED/White House money because they post too much... Face it you are a hack with the deductive powers of a wannabe Sherlock Holmes.
ow- Thats why when I asked Kilo about his evidence on corruption he had to change the subject to Zimbabwe. -ow
That's incorrect. One of your flock accused me of malfeasance, in a chain of reasoning fathomable only to himself.
I asked of him if he meant malfeasance on the scale of Francisco Carrasquero, to which you interjected that anything connected to Teodoro Petfoff was fruit of a poisoned tree.
I mentioned Zimbabwe to a certain Molly22, who had just heard about Venezuela from the American Leftist, and was very concerned. I directed her attention to Mugabe's Zimbabwe, which has the same level of transparency and ethics as MVR's Venezuela, but lacks the petrodollars.
As Mr. Mugabe is busy razing the hovels of the poor foolish to stand up to him, and that nation's ability to feed itself is slashed, the call is out for progressives to come work the land and feed the people.
Naturally, that's back-breaking work, and you won't live on the government's dime at the Caracas Hilton, but you sandalistas are needed there. (That means you, criollo-wannabe Jim R...)
http://www.itv.com/news/
index_18...ex_1869552.html
Please don't obfuscate the facts and misrepresent what I've said.
On the matter of your ability to find yourself,in a manner that Zelig and Forrest Gump would find remarkable, in close proximity to Hugo Chavez and critical government documents, so close that you are permitted to record the images---
Well, in days when the conmemoration of la Batalla de Carabobo has to be suspended because of fears of threats to Hugo's wellbeing, you can see why your claim to be cheek-to-cheek with the man is curious; if you wished him ill and faced no vetting before being allowed entree, well, that would be a scandal.
So, yes, your connection to the upper echelons of Chavismo is a valid question, as it colors how one should take your agitprop.
If you are a Ken Loachy Marxist from Britain or Canada, that's one thing.
If you are welcome in the Boliburguesia, that's quite another.
If you're telling us that you work for the Daily Journal or somesuch and fear for your employment, we might wonder whether you are not a Stasi-like plant in the first place.
Before you try to bring up Machado, we know who she is, where she can be reached. THAT'S transparency.
You're just shady.
"I directed her attention to Mugabe's Zimbabwe, which has the same level of transparency and ethics as MVR's Venezuela, but lacks the petrodollars."
And your facts to back this up are where? Where are the homes being razed in Venezuela? Isn't the standard of the living of the poor in Venezuela increasing? Doesn't look like a very good comparison to me.
"So, yes, your connection to the upper echelons of Chavismo is a valid question, as it colors how one should take your agitprop."
Really, ok. But it turns out the bloggers who get paid to write what they write by places like BBO are the opposition blogs. Hmm. Just today a ghost blogger indicated they are appearently paid to do this stuff. So maybe you should inquirer about them rather than those of us who are stuck doing this on our own time.
"Before you try to bring up Machado, we know who she is, where she can be reached. THAT'S transparency."
So if you know where to find her how come know one can seem to find out exactly why she was in Miraflores? Maybe that would be a good homework assignment for you.
**Isn't the standard of the living of the poor in Venezuela increasing**
When the post 9/11 world sees oil at $60 a barrel, I would expect the standard of living to rise in Venezuela.
Just as it did during CAP 1.0; it would take unimagineable levels of ineptitude not to take care of your base during a windfall.
I suppose Deborah James and VIO also work pro-bono?
Chavez has made clear that Mugabe is a swell guy by his book; I think First World progressives would find the plight of Zimbabwe much more urgent than the plight of Venezuela's cold war with the US.
I'd be interested to hear Chavez's opinion of the "Caracazo" Mugabe is undertaking in Z
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world...ica/
4101228.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world...ica/
4077152.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world...ica/
4586559.stm
"Curious how you jumpt to all sorts of conclusions about me based on very limited information yet when MCM shows up in Miraflores on A12 you claim you don't have a clue. You don't even want to venture a guess"
When it's important, I don't guess.
"I've noticed you spend lots of time typing up long comments on different blogs under various monikers"
Again, I feel so loved that you would dedicate your personal time to me. Or maybe I should feel scared - this could be stalking.
Either way, you took away from more work time to investigate me. (Unless you work for DISIP – hmmmm…) Fan or stalker, you’ve got a thing for me.
“The Chavez government is the most transparent in Venezuelan history”
Then why can’t officials explain the full gap between what the BCV says is gross and net petroleum income?
Why does Rafael Ramirez go the Asamblea for the first time in two years, give a speech, but not answer questions from Diputados?
Why did they quit publishing the PODE?
Why does BANDES, managing billions of dollars, post nothing about those funds online, or anything at all to explain the source of their funds?
Why haven’t we seen a budget for any of the Misiones?
Why don’t we know how much oil goes to Cuba?
Why doesn’t PDVSA give an accounting of the FONDESPA to the Central Bank?
(And I’m just focusing on economics, leaving aside the CNE, various political trials, the military, how many Cubans occupy government jobs, etc.)
You can compare to history (or George Bush) all you want, but it doesn’t change one simple fact: the Chavez administration is not transparent ENOUGH. I’m not accusing anyone of theft, just asking a question: what do they have to hide?
“when presented with information you don't like or don't want to accept you just assume it can't possibly be true”
When I am presented with information with little evidence that supports it, I question it.
Elliv: “when the oppo folks cant handle the facts they shoot the messenger”
Ow: “Pulpo, Jim R., Flanker, etc. don't step in your BS here - they know the deal”
Flanker, apparently you didn’t read the memos from your panas. (Can’t say you didn’t get them.) Of course, that’s consistent for you, since you didn’t read what I said either (otherwise you’d know ow really did say people took pics; it was about timing, not total time; that hosting and commenting are different things). If you’re interested in dialogue, remember that’s 2-way communication. Future monologues will be just that.
Ow, Kilometrico’s comments are quite interesting. He obviously gets my point, on multiple subjects. (Flock – funny choice of word. “All we, like sheep, have gone astray”?) I notice you dodge the transparency and ethics issue and answer with other themes.
Kilometrico, fascinating comparison of the actions of Chavez’s good buddy with the Caracazo. Is Chavez a hypocrite to criticize one but not the other? We now know he doesn’t honor extradition requests the sam
Kilometrico, fascinating comparison of the actions of Chavez’s good buddy with the Caracazo. Is Chavez a hypocrite to criticize one but not the other? We now know he doesn’t honor extradition requests the same way he demands others do.
“maybe you should inquirer about them rather than those of us who are stuck doing this on our own time”
Since Miguel Octavio owns BBO, it’s really his own time to blog, isn’t it? Since when is Monday at 12:48 PM your own time? Thursday at 3:52? Just to name a couple examples.
Here’s a challenge for you: a debate on the topic of my choice. I pick, tell you (for now, I’ll just say it fits better with the name of the blog than Posada), you’ll have time (a week?) to prepare a post on the topic, and when you do, it starts. We’ll see how you react when presented with information you don’t like.
"When it's important, I don't guess."
I know, when its important you just evade.
"Fan or stalker, you’ve got a thing for me."
yes, and then you come and visit here. We better be careful or people will think were an item - like Boyd and Golinger
"You can compare to history (or George Bush) all you want, but it doesn’t change one simple fact: the Chavez administration is not transparent ENOUGH. "
Maybe you can volunteer to help make them more transparent. Like anything there is always room for improvement and maybe you have some expertise you can share with them. In any event I'm sure your average person cares less about hypothetical situations and more about real improvements versus previous governments. Just compare say Recadi and Cadivi. One publishes information regularly, the other was just a conduit for billions to be looted. The difference is obvious.
"We now know he doesn’t honor extradition requests the same way he demands others do."
Actually, if you read the blog you'd know he does - the Colombians got a criminal they asked for. Venezuela is still waiting for Posada
"Since when is Monday at 12:48 PM your own time? Thursday at 3:52? Just to name a couple examples."
Glad your not my boss.
Here is a challenge for you. Come up with some pertinent, substantiated, and relevant information and post it in the comments - which are here for debate - and then maybe I'll consider your request. You have to learn to walk before you learn to run.
"yes, and then you come and visit here. We better be careful or people will think were an item - like Boyd and Golinger"
BLASHPEME! HOW DARE YOU!
"We better be careful or people will think were an item"
As though commenting and performing background investigations were equivalent acts. No, our levels of commitment to one another vary considerably.
"Just compare say Recadi and Cadivi"
Don't know much about Recadi, but can you assume what they would not have done with the internet back then? Seems like you've made up your mind, but without facts to support it.
As for Cadivi, here's a question: ever since it was created, the amount of money they approved has always been considerably greater than the amount the Central Bank liquidates. Since the BCV has no decision-making authority in that area, what do you think is the reason for that? Explanations are certainly not something Cadivi publishes, and how things work is the very essence of transparency.
"Venezuela is still waiting for Posada"
And Spain is still waiting for Fernando Lucas Garcia - for reasons strikingly similar to the reasons Venezuela awaits Posada - but you'd never know that from reading your blog.
"Glad your not my boss"
Me too. (It's bad enough with you stalking me.) But I'll bet your boss is pleased.
"Here is a challenge for you"
Afraid? Another hint: PDVSA.
JN:
Are you not interested in the post entitled "What to do with all the money - II
A showdown of sorts - I can almost see the tumbleweeds rolling down the road on a seemingly deserted town - the wind kicking up dust, and people peering out from behind curtains of the town saloon.
OW Eastwood, chaps on, colts in holsters, wearing a dusty white hat, tobacco lodged between cheek and gum - spits and hits a fly on the side of wall, awaits in the middle of main street.
Background investigations - don't flatter yourself. I just notice the obvious like during work hours you post from Washington D.C. while off hours from Caracas. Hmmm, what kind of place in Venezuela would have its internet connections routed through servers in D.C.?
"Don't know much about Recadi" This seems to be a standard response on your part when confronted by facts - "I don't know much about that". So obviously having a discussion about whether the current government is more or less transparent than previous governments is pointless when you will feign ignorance of anything that happened more than a couple years ago. And its why while you actually type your own words unlike some opposition posters here at the end of the day you say nothing more than they do.
Oh MY!
Interesting.
Just Noticing **comparison of the actions of Chavez’s good buddy with the Caracazo. Is Chavez a hypocrite to criticize one but not the other? **
I look at it the other way: Chavistas exploited the Caracazo and the issues it bundled as a means to an end - the acquisition of power and control over the State.
Having fulfilled its purpose, the issue is now of use only to vivisect CAP and the years Venezuela was a liberal, socialist democracy.
Thus, expecting Chavismo, whose interest in international events is known to all, to apply a standard of ethics and decency and speak up for the voiceless Zimbabweans who are being punished, dispossessed and displaced, will likely require a Jobian level of patience.
I don't expect the sight of this little tyrant demolishing ranchos and herding hundreds of thousands of people into the cold African night,
into concentration camps --because he wants to do so, and because he can, and because his whim is law-- to elicit any J'accuse! from Rangel, or Flores, or Maduro, or Saab, or Varela. Never mind their Godfather.
Mugabe, after all, is "one of us" to Chavismo. We've seen Chavez honor Mugabe, invest him with simulacra of Bolivar's relics, elevate him to a brother and peer of Bolivar.
You would think that sight of the Libertador of Harare then unleashing the state against the poorest of the poor would give some pause, what with all that business "Abajo cadenas...Y el pobre en su chosa/Libertad pidio"
But then you's be one of those naive souls who don't believe in situational ethics, standards of convenience.
Should the day come that the people of Zimbabwe are as free of Mugabe as the people of Venezuela are of CAP, and they consider Mugabe's Espada Del Libertador, they'll remember Chavez's bestowing of it, weigh it against Chavez silence regrading Mugabe's Plan Avila, and have a very good read of the character of Hugo, and of Chavismo.
Maybe the reason Chavismo says something about the Caracazo is it actually happened in Venezuela.
So you want to criticize Chavez and what you come up with is something occuring in Zimbabwe. Considering how well things are going in Venezuela I guess I can't blame you.
Spoken like a true Adeco, circa 1976...
Kilometrico said: "the years Venezuela was a liberal, socialist democracy."
Blahhaha, hahaha, Bla, haa, haa haa....
Dude, I am rolling on the floor in hysterical laughter.
A 'socialist' government that does very little for the masses that their policies are impoverishing.
I love it.
The next thing you will say is that the US is trying to bring 'democracy' to Iraq.
Bla, ha, ha, ha...hee, hee, Blah, ha....oh, wait, you actually believe that.
By bad. Nevermind.
**A 'socialist' government that does very little for the masses that their policies are impoverishing.**
We're not meant to talk about Zimbabwe...
Altho you DID see they're looking for Progressive Foreign Farmers, didn't you, Stevie?
"This seems to be a standard response on your part when confronted by facts - "I don't know much about that"."
Do you expect me to do an intensive, hours-long study of a dead institution in order to satisfy your wishes? I wasn't here, I wasn't paying attention to Recadi from afar. Nothing done under Recadi justifies anything that happens today. Wrong is wrong, and using past problems to justify current ones is also wrong.
"what kind of place in Venezuela would have its internet connections routed through servers in D.C.?"
And how is that obvious, without an investigation? To answer your question, more than one organization. Yes, my main office is there. I think anyone with a small imagination can name quite a few organizations present in Caracas that have HQs in Washington. Does that rule you out?
EP, I think I'm the one in the middle of the street (perhaps in a black hat? That's what old Clint used to wear), since OW appears afraid to take on a challenge.
OW, I'm calling your bluff. There's a guy named Jose Guerra who has been claiming that the amount of money PDVSA claims to have made as a gross, less the amount of money they have spent/donated to various funds, does not equal the amount of money the Central Bank says they've received. He doesn't guess where the missing money is, but a gap means either the money is being diverted illegally (and quite possibly stolen) or the figure is inflated to mask falling oil production.
Using the wealth of information available to you from this "most transparent" of governments, prove him wrong.
Either that or admit that this government is led by liars, who may also be thieves. Or that you haven't the intellectual honesty to face up to information - from authentic sources - you don't like, but can't disprove.
See: http://buscador.eluniversal.com/
...rt_20201E.shtml
http://buscador.eluniversal.com/
...rt_26201A.shtml
http://buscador.eluniversal.com/
...rt_04202D.shtml
http://buscador.eluniversal.com/
...rt_14201C.shtml
http://buscador.eluniversal.com/
...rt_21118A.shtml
for some of the numbers.
**I think anyone with a small imagination can name quite a few organizations present in Caracas that have HQs in Washington **
Fess up, Just Noticing, can it BE that you're actually Evita Goldfinger, using Mommy's servers in her US law offices???
DBC, you rat!
"Do you expect me to do an intensive, hours-long study of a dead institution in order to satisfy your wishes? I wasn't here, I wasn't paying attention to Recadi from afar."
The going gets tough and JN - ducks.
BTW, yeah there are lots of organizations in D.C. - most all of them with the same paymaster.
**yeah there are lots of organizations in D.C. - most all of them with the same paymaster.**
That'd be the American taxpayer...
OW, do tell why Recadi is somehow more relevant to the current political and economic situtation - and especially to a blog with the name of OILWARS - than the current state of PDVSA.
Unless you can explain that, you are the one who ducked.
Simple, to examine wether or not “The Chavez government is the most transparent in Venezuelan history” you have to compare the Chavez government to other governments in Venezuelan history. A perfect case would be Recadi vs Cadivi because they are virtually identical in their role.
But I know, for obvious reasons you don't want to pursue that. You probably won't have any better luck at figuring out what happened with the $8 billion than the people at the time did.
I have no interest or desire to defend the record of Recadi, because I didn't support it, or the administration behind it. And I challenged you to tell why Recadi is more relevant than PDVSA, not Cadivi - did you not read what I wrote, or are you simply not up to such a task?
I said: "the Chavez administration is not transparent ENOUGH"
"Nothing done under Recadi justifies anything that happens today. Wrong is wrong, and using past problems to justify current ones is also wrong"
You said: "But I know, for obvious reasons you don't want to pursue that"
How ironic. You refuse to address the current lack of transparency, and whether or not billions of dollars have simply disappeared from the Venezuelan treasury (with plenty more to come - or go), for obvious reasons - because you are incapable of questioning the agency and the administration behind it which you most certainly do support. Either that, or you know what the truth is and aren't intellectually honest enough to address it. (Or perhaps your boss would object?)
If I "duck"ed, you "ostrich"ed. Both comparing the relative importance to Venezuela today and the metaphorical head in the sand - or elsewhere.
"I have no interest or desire to defend the record of Recadi, because I didn't support it, or the administration behind it. And I challenged you to tell why Recadi is more relevant than PDVSA, not Cadivi - did you not read what I wrote, or are you simply not up to such a task?"
Again if you are going to test the veracity of my original statement, that the Chavez administration in Venezuelan history, then you have to compare it to previous governments. That is where the Cadivi/Recadi comparison comes in.
Now you say you didn't support the previous governments (even though the opposition which you support is made up of the people from previous governments) and therefore don't want to do that comparison.
Ok, I'll humor you, what do you want to compare to? The US for example?
Lets see what they have in common that they can compare. Maybe electoral authorities. Lets compare the transparancy of the CNE under Chavez to the electoral authorites of the US. I'm game for that. After all the actions of the CNE have been reviewed by outside auditors and the U.S. elections are reviewed by ... who?
Or maybe we can compare how the U.S. and Venezuela make their requests for extraditions. Heck I even have pictures of Venezuela's extradition requests. Do you have anything for the Egyptian kidnapped off Milan's streets by the CIA?
So let me know if you're game for at least this comparison or if you're going to continue with the dodge ball.
Dodge ball? This from the guy named oilwars, who is anxious to talk about foreign exchange 10 years ago but afraid to address oil production now. No, I called your bluff for exactly what it was.
You're a coward.
I don't know man - I've offered to compare the Chavez admin to prior admins, to the U.S. and you walk away.
I knew you'd walk away from the transparency issue 'cause even your beloved employer can't measure up.
So let me see, you've walked away from the Posada issue, the MCM case, and now this. Three strikes and your out. And you know what really makes me lose respect for you - you don't even go down swinging, you go down looking. Hell even DBC/Kilo swings at the ball.
Next batter please.
**the U.S. elections are reviewed by ... who?**
You want to put up the David Boises and legions of Democratic trial lawyers that CAT scanned the Florida 2000 vote against any
"transparency" in how Rodriguez, Carrasquero run their fiefdom?
See, I would just LOVE to see that.
How 'bout comparing the US's GAO*
http://www.gao.gov/about/what.html
with the equivalent office under Chavismo?
Or compare PDVSA'a audits from before 1999 to the present ones.?
"The Government Accountability Office (GAO) is an agency that works for Congress and the American people. Congress asks GAO to study the programs and expenditures of the federal government. GAO, commonly called the investigative arm of Congress or the congressional watchdog, is independent and nonpartisan. It studies how the federal government spends taxpayer dollars. GAO advises Congress and the heads of executive agencies (such as Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, Department of Defense, DOD, and Health and Human Services, HHS) about ways to make government more effective and responsive. GAO evaluates federal programs, audits federal expenditures, and issues legal opinions. When GAO reports its findings to Congress, it recommends actions. Its work leads to laws and acts that improve government operations, and save billions of dollars. "
What's the equivalent to its No Fear Act?
"Section 301 of the Notification and Federal Employee Antidiscrimination and Retaliation Act of 2002 (the No Fear Act) requires federal agencies to post summary statistical data pertaining to complaints of employment discrimination filed against it by employees, former employees, and applicants for employment under 29 C.F.R Part 1614. The specific data to be posted is described in section 301(b) of the Act and 29 CFR 1614.704. The summary statistical data for EEO complaints filed against GAO is available below."
In the transparency of Hugoslavia, where are the statistics over federal employees harrassed by use, of, say, the Tascon list?
"You want to put up the David Boises and legions of Democratic trial lawyers that CAT scanned the Florida 2000 vote against any
"transparency" in how Rodriguez, Carrasquero run their fiefdom?"
Absolutely. The entire Venezuelan vote in the RR for example was reviewed from beginning to end by two outside monitoring groups who through analysis and audits verified that the announced vote totals were accurate. And all voting was carried out in a way that was verifiable - either through paper ballots or with machinc produced reciepts. There were no black boxes.
Now let me see in the U.S. I think maybe someone got scared when they were only able to hang on by the skin of their teeth when the Supreme Court stopped the recounts. So the next time they made sure there wouldn't be any recounts. Now they a significant number of voting machines that are no computers that DO NOT produce receipts. So it is completely impossible for them to be audited (and wouldn't you know it - a lot of them were used in Ohio). So a machine can just drop votes, a reboot and wipe everything out or even have a funny program meant to throw things. But it can't be checked.
I think a system than can be checked, liked Venezuelas, and is checked by outside auditors trumps a system that can't be double checked and isn't reviewed by outside election observers.
Plus, didn't some states have problems with purges of their voter roles. Venezuela right now has an outside organization checking its voter rolls. Hmmm. How come the US doesn't do that? What do they have to hide?
PDVSA's audited financial statements are right here:
http://www.pdvsa.com/finance/sec.html
And the ones for 2003, 2004 would be their except the Oily People walked off with all the accounting systems and data and haven't returned it despite court orders to hand it over to PDVSA. Hmm, what could the Oily People be up to.
And boy, you get info on the GAO from the GAO web-site. I'm really surprised the GAO doesn't bash the GAO? And does the GAO have any power? Has it figured out what happened with the $12 billion in cash that went to Iraq? Has it got the full audit report on Halliburton released without redactions?
"Federal Employee Antidiscrimination" This is kind of funny as on another website your friends are insisting that Venezuela is the ONE country in the whole world with no racism. So I guess that kind of agency would be unnecessary in Venezuela.
And I see you're dragging the "Tascon list" out of the closet. Hey, I'd hate Tascon if I were in the opposition too. I'd hate anyone that showed the fraud carried out by SUMATE. To bad they can't audit exit polls so we could see how they faked them too.
So let me see, three swings and three misses - you're out too!!!!
Well, at least you swung
It's no doubt efficient when the one at bat and the umpire are one and the same, but it takes the excitement out of the game.
You want to compare the Carter Center and Gaviria to the Democrats lawyers, I'd be happy to watch.
Who counted the paper ballots again?
You have a problem with the Democrat who designed the butterfly ballots, you can question her directly.
Likewise, as each state, each voting district carries out its own ballot, you'll have to address your conspiracy theories to the Supervisor of Elections in question.
There not being a monolithic, centralized bureaucracy as the CSE/CNE, there's no national voter list available to cook.
Why is the MVR involved with this auditing of the REP?"El secretario general del...(MAS) Leopoldo Puchi, considera que lo más probable es que el Centro de Asesoría y Promoción Electoral (Capel) haga lo mismo que hizo el Centro Carter en pasados comicios electorales: "Ser un alcahueta del CNE", dijo.
Desde su punto de vista, la intervención de Capel es una coartada de los rectores del Consejo Nacional Electoral, para dar la impresión de transparencia: "A estas alturas no se sabe con precisión cómo se va a llevar a cabo la auditoría encargada a Capel y siguen en el limbo dos millones de cedulados a través de la Misión Identidad".
A pesar de su desconfianza, Puchi dijo que los partidos de oposición acudirán a una reunión convocada por Capel este martes. En esa oportunidad, insistirán en la necesidad de que todos las toldas políticas participen en igualdad de condiciones en todas las etapas del proceso electoral. Aseguró que, hasta el presente, la voz cantante la ha llevado la Secretaría de Organización del Movimiento Quinta República.
Además de necesidad de observación internacional ciertamente imparcial, el secretario general del MAS recordó que siguen pendientes de solución irregularidades estructurales que podrían abrir espacios a la posibilidad de fraude: la conducta pro gubernamental de la mayoría de los rectores del CNE y las repentinas reubicaciones de electores.
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=c...ela+capel&
hl=en
I apoligize, I thought you'd asked about transparency, not the illusion thereof---my bad.
You might want to take your theories to the various levels of Democrat organizations ---where did you vote in November? Did you contest the ballot?
If you find the GAO site not a credible source re: the GAO, why's a PDVSA page about PDVSA Finance have any more credibility?
And PDVSA and PDVSA Finance's
reports with the SEC are a US requirement: where does the Venezuelan citizen acquire his or her company's data, its independently audited books?
GAO reports: http://www.gao.gov/docsearch/topic.php
"Antidiscrimination" - not limited to race; for example, when Barreto and Bernal are accusing each other of being drog
... drug addicts and frequenting gay brothels, you have examples of non-racial hostility being espoused by public servants.
When you have people targeted for appearing on the Tascon list, you have an actionable irrespective of race.
So, what element of the government which was shocked, SHOCKED to learn that the Tascon list
was used to blacklist people, redresses these matters?
What has Clodosbaldo Russián do, anyway?
Dude, I'm looking at the pitches because (to carry the metaphor) I'm playing baseball and you're throwing me basketballs. Your questions belong in someone else's game, not mine. You’ve made a straw man of me, what I believe, what I support, that exists only in your imagination.
Of course, if I'm looking at pitches, you've got your back turned to them, cause you don't even acknowledge that they're there. (If you would actually read what I wrote...)
Posada: I raised Lucas. If someone accuses another of being a hypocrite, their own house better be in order. ("How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?") Before Venezuela can call anyone a hypocrite, they need show they aren't. No need to answer this now; I’m happy to wait until "Posada Update XII."
MCM: your initial accusation was that her signature proved she “supported the overthrow of democracy.” I said a signature did not, because it didn’t show intent. You insist on the video, but have yet to explain how it shows anything more than that she was present and signed a paper – two things that were NEVER in dispute (by me).
As for transparency, your justification is pure nonsense. You seem to have set up prior Venezuelan administrations as some of the worst governments the planet has ever seen. I have no desire to argue that claim, so let’s just say it’s true. But comparing anything to something so terrible is ridiculous.
What if Pinochet had designated a successor, who was very much the same but had only half as many death squads? Progress! Or if the next wannabe Hitler only put to death a couple million people? Bush can do whatever he wants in terms of coup attempts and assassinations, so long as it isn’t as bad as what used to happen. What if you got a 0% on an exam, then got 10% on the next one? In relative terms – like you want to use – that’s an INFINITE improvement. You can’t possibly do any better, so you might as well quit since you’ve already reached the top!
The only valid comparison (which would also have applied to any Venezuelan government at the time) is this: can it do better than it is? So tell me (if you dare), can the Venezuelan government be more transparent than it is?
Hiding behind the past to justify the present is far more of a dodge than my lack of interest in revisiting it. The only problem that past lack of transparency can still cause is preventing transparency now from those who are looking for excuses to hide things. Current lack of transparency, however, will continue to harm Venezuela as long as whatever problem – corruption, theft, waste, inefficiency – exists. And without transparency, there is no evidence those DON’T exist.
So, PDVSA – show us the money. Either that, or admit you really like the fact that the old Venezuelan government was terrible, because it gives you an excuse (and a very weak one) to cop out.
Wow - I expected a weak reply, but not that weak!
"Any coward can fight a battle when he's sure of winning, but give me the man who has pluck to fight when he's sure of losing."
George Eliot
You're sure of losing, so you have no "pluck to fight."
You, ow, are indeed a coward.
"You want to compare the Carter Center and Gaviria to the Democrats lawyers, I'd be happy to watch."
No I would just like to compare the final audit report of the RR to the final audit report of the 2004 US election. Oh, wait, there wasn't an audit report of the US election by outside observers? Well looks like Venezuela wins on transparency again.
"Likewise, as each state, each voting district carries out its own ballot, you'll have to address your conspiracy theories to the Supervisor of Elections in question."
Whether they are at the local or national level is not relevant. The question is what outside organization is reviewing them. Oh, none? Venezuela winning 2 - 0.
"If you find the GAO site not a credible source re: the GAO, why's a PDVSA page about PDVSA Finance have any more credibility?"
The PDVSA statements are presented by the outside auditors, not PDVSA.
"And PDVSA and PDVSA Finance's
reports with the SEC are a US requirement: where does the Venezuelan citizen acquire his or her company's data, its independently audited books?"
Same website.
"When you have people targeted for appearing on the Tascon list, you have an actionable irrespective of race."
The only people targeted by Tascon was SUMATE which was obviously faking signatures of people that never signed. I guess that was their warm up for faking exit polls.
"So, PDVSA – show us the money. Either that, or admit you really like the fact that the old Venezuelan government was terrible, because it gives you an excuse (and a very weak one) to cop out."
Show you what money? Is there something specific you are referring to? If so why don't you say it?
You want to assert that the Venezuelan government is corrupt then go ahead show us the evidence. You've had all the oppertunity in the world but you don't. Wonder why. Could it be because you don't have any?
"Posada: I raised Lucas. If someone accuses another of being a hypocrite, their own house better be in order. ("How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?") Before Venezuela can call anyone a hypocrite, they need show they aren't. No need to answer this now; I’m happy to wait until "Posada Update XII.""
You can show that the Lucas situation is the same as Posada's. Then humor us and do it. And you don't have to wait for the next Posada update. After all you ignore most of them. Like the one about how while the US insists that Venezuela follow formal prodedures the US just snatched a person off the streets of Milan. Interesting how you have nothing to say about that double standard - cat got your tongue?
"but have yet to explain how it shows anything more than that she was present and signed a paper – two things that were NEVER in dispute (by me)."
Answered under the orignal thread and never responded to by you. Wonder why.
"The only valid comparison (which would also have applied to any Venezuelan government at the time) is this: can it do better than it is?"
No the only valid comparison that all political leaders face (in spite of the straw men you set up) is are they creating a better country or worse one. I know you would like to compare Chavez to some hypothetical standard that YOU dream up and when he doesn't meet it say he sucks. Nice try but that is not how it works. Of course Venezuela is not as transparent as it COULD be. And the country that is...is? Certainly not the U.S. as DBC is learning the hard way.
So the point stands: The current government is the most transparent government Venezuela has had in the democratic era. Kudos to Chavez. And maybe the CNE can go to the US and teach them how to run transparent elections.
"Show you what money? Is there something specific you are referring to? If so why don't you say it?"
Wow, you really don't read what I say, do you? If you think somehow it’s irrelevant just because they aren’t my words, then maybe you should quit quoting anybody. His assertions are serious, and supported with enough evidence (from the Venezuelan government, no less) that, if not proven false, there needs to be a damn good reason to ignore them.
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...88487920/
#24614
"You want to assert that the Venezuelan government is corrupt"
Where did I say that? I just want someone to explain where those $5 billion or so went, and with actual numbers, rather than just claiming there is no discrepancy without providing evidence – or ignoring it, like an ostrich with its head in the sand.
"Like the one about how while the US insists that Venezuela follow formal prodedures the US just snatched a person off the streets of Milan"
The difference being that Venezuela is – and you are – loudly blaming the US of having a double standard. They both live in glass houses, but only one is throwing stones. I've never attempted to defend the US government in those cases, so why do you expect me to? You, on the other hand, need to back up what you have already said, or change your tune.
"Answered under the orignal thread and never responded to by you. Wonder why"
Wonder no longer. Hadn't been there in a while, and you took longer than usual to reply, so I thought none was forthcoming. Response is there, though it seems to be a dead horse, with you continuing to leap to conclusions and me refusing to leap anywhere.
"I know you would like to compare Chavez to some hypothetical standard that YOU dream up and when he doesn't meet it say he sucks"
You are quite clueless about what I really think. I could be perfectly willing to vote for Chavez in an election. I might actually think Chavez is the greatest leader this hemisphere has ever seen, just don't like certain things he does and want him to be even better. I look at things one issue at a time and hope for improvement when appropriate. That's true for politicians I vote for and those I don't. Once they're in office, it makes no difference any more, not until the next election.
“So the point stands: The current government is the most transparent government Venezuela has had in the democratic era”
So the point is evaded: if you think there’s any excuse for billions of dollars disappearing, rather than being spent on something to benefit Venezuela, your priorities are seriously screwed up.
And my point stands: you did exactly what I said you would – use the prior administrations to cop out. No “pluck” at all.
JN:
I checked some some of the links you gave claiming there is some sort of shortfall in oil income this year. It all seems to be based on what Jose Guerra says even though he never provides any evidence.
Anyways, on El Universal I found this from the other day:
"Ortega Díaz, quien se mostró parco al ser abordado por los diputados con respecto al cuadre de cuentas de Pdvsa con el BCV, consignó ante la subcomisión los documentos correspondientes a las divisas pactadas por el holding y el instituto emisor de enero a mayo.
En tales documentos, que están firmados tanto por gerentes de Pdvsa como del BCV, se puede observar que en enero Pdvsa reportó 1.743 millones de dólares, en febrero $1.617 millones, en marzo $1.819 millones, en abril $2.462 millones y en mayo $2.510 millones para un total de 10.151 millones de dólares en los primeros cinco meses del año.
Estas cifras se acercan bastante a las confirmadas por el BCV en su reporte sobre el primer trimestre, en el cual informó que Pdvsa le había entregado 5.116 millones de dólares, después de descontar pagos a proveedores y convenios operativos, aportes al Fondespa, reposición del fondo rotatorio y servicio de deuda."
And then on the PDVSA web site I found a document http://www.pdvsa.com/en/
noticias...50628_03_en.htm
that ties the same numbers into the documents presented to the AN that were signed by both the BCV and PDVSA.
So you see, nothing missing except Mr. Guerra's credibility.
So JN, getting back to serious subjects how is your study of Recadi coming along.
"They both live in glass houses"
Really, how so. The US just invades countries or snatches people off the street when it wants people from other countries - apparently it doesn't have to go through the legal processes. Yet if another country wants someone in the US extradited it is told it has to go through the legal processes. Thats a clear double standard. Now Venezuela requests that other countries go through legal processes to get people inside Venezuela extradited. At the same time, Venezuela does the requisite paperwork to have people extradited to Venezuela. Can you site an instance of where Venezuela just kidnapped someone or invaded another country? If not then it is clear the only people with logs in eyes are the US government.
"I could be perfectly willing to vote for Chavez in an election. I might actually think Chavez is the greatest leader this hemisphere has ever seen"
Well, we are just two peas in a pod then
"“So the point stands: The current government is the most transparent government Venezuela has had in the democratic era”
So the point is evaded"
Yes, evaded by you. I wonder why.
You really are thin on understanding, aren't you? Guerra doesn't dispute the 5.116 number - he accepts it as fact and uses it as a reference for his questions. How does repeating it prove Guerra wrong? It doesn't. Check this one:
http://buscador.eluniversal.com/
...rt_26201A.shtml
Especially check out this chart, where he kindly adds it all up for you:
http://buscador.eluniversal.com/.../Pdvsa-
BCVG.gif
Nothing seems to be missing but your reading comprehension.
Ditto for Lucas: my point is about how Venezuela (and you) has complained about how the US is handling the Posada case, above and beyond other individuals which you have raised. Yet they handle their own case exactly the same way. If I criticize you for a fault, yet do the same thing, am I not a hypocrite? And yes, it is quite possible for both to be hypocrites, a truth which you seem unable to handle, since it would require finding fault with your idol. I guess we're not two peas in a pod.
Who said anything about disputing the 5.166 number?
Show me where I said that. What I assumed you had enough intelligence to figure out (my bad, sorry) was that the money turned over to the BCV totals 7.64 billion from January to April, which ties into what PDVSA says it turned over, and which, after expenses, in turn ties into 268 million barrels of oil sold by PDVSA at $40.59. That in turn matches Venezuelan production figures after discounting internal consumption and synthetic crudes.
So what turns out to be missing is Mr. Guerra's credibility *and* your reading/arithmatic skills. Don't worry, if you're a US gov't employee no one expects much of you anyways. So your job is safe and this incompetance won't endanger it.
You still didn't answer the question of where you are on Recadi.
On the Posada case:
The U.S. doesn't need extradition requests to get terrorists abroad. Yet to get a terrorist from the US other countries need extradition paperwork. That is a double standard.
Venezuela both requires extradition paperwork and provides it when seeking extradition. So they are completely consistent and there are no double standards.
Yet you say: "Yet they handle their own case exactly the same way." and "If I criticize you for a fault, yet do the same thing, am I not a hypocrite? " So again (I asked this before and you didn't answer) show me an instance where Venezuela kidnapped someone or invaded a country to avoid having to do extradition requests. Show me that Venezuela under Chavez has acted in a similiar manner to the US on this. Unless you can come up with that that you have no case here. But of course, we both already know that don't we.
"show me an instance where Venezuela kidnapped someone"
Is that the only criterion for hypocrisy? Venezuela whines about Posada, yet denies extradition for Lucas on the same grounds whereby Posada is not yet released - while Chavez, et al complain. If that's not hypocrisy, what is it?
"Who said anything about disputing the 5.166 number?"
It's 5.116, and you held it up as evidence that "Mr. Guerra's credibility" was "missing." Then you focus on April, which is obviously another strike against your reading comprehension. Since Guerra uses numbers from the Central Bank, he can't yet discuss April or May - since those numbers will only be published some time next month, with the rest of the 2nd quarter.
He takes the official numbers for the entire 1st quarter, subtracts out what PDVSA and Ramirez have said were the legitimate deductions, and finds a gap of $2.469 BILLION. Nothing in the PDVSA statement refutes that in the slightest.
That's $823 million per month, or $9.9 billion pace for a year. Which doesn't include $3.5 billion that was already missing from last year. How's that compare to Recadi? Pretty badly, for the people of Venezuela.
JN,
I see facts are failing you. I have asked you to demonstrate Venezuela's hypocrisy on the extradition issue wherein it expects of others things it doesn't do itself. So please show us. You claim that there is some Lucas case that demonstrates this. Yet a few posts above I said this: "You can show that the Lucas situation is the same as Posada's. Then humor us and do it"
Yet so far no information from you has been forthcoming. Whats the matter? Cat got your tongue? More likely you know your case is bogus and want out.
"Then you focus on April, which is obviously another strike against your reading comprehension. Since Guerra uses numbers from the Central Bank, he can't yet discuss April or May - since those numbers will only be published some time next month, with the rest of the 2nd quarter."
No, the articles cover the numbers from January through April in their entirety. And they clearly show all funds are accounted for. So if January to April is accounted for then January to March is accounted for. Duh.
You refuse to discuss Recadi and now you refuse to discuss what YOU were harping on and wanted to discuss because now you claim you don't have all the numbers. That is so LAME. So I guess again you are trapped by you're own bullshit and just want a way out.
It would appear the U.S. taxpayers aren't getting their monies worth out of you are they? Fortunately you don't have to name yourself. Otherwise your bosses might feel compelled to send you back to the home office. Then there wouldn't be any more fun and sun for you in Caracas
Lucas (not that you ever asked me to provide such information before):
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/
20...1119997461.html
If you only limit yourself seeking info from the links on your page, no wonder you’ve never heard of this guy.
“No, the articles cover the numbers from January through April in their entirety. And they clearly show all funds are accounted for”
What is clearly shown is that Carruyo says all funds are accounted for. Nothing more. Even in this “most transparent government,” you have NO WAY to verify this information, do you? Just one man’s words.
For the first quarter, we do – Central Bank statistics. Using those, and comparing them to official PDVSA statements, leaves a noticeable gap. Or does it? Unless you can prove Guerra wrong, I’d have to say it does. No one has so far.
Plus there’s 2004, where Guerra finds a gap of $3.5 billion. Does Carruyo’s claim “account for” that? No. Whatever happened in 2005, that gap is still a problem if true, isn’t it? Yet you hide from it.
In the first quarter, Ramirez said that PDVSA gave $6.433 billion to the BCV.
http://buscador.eluniversal.com/
...rt_07102A.shtml
Why did that become over a billion less?
The income claims through April May don’t include money from Citgo, which is certainly PDVSA money.
http://buscador.eluniversal.com/
...po_11156D.shtml
$400 million for 2004, which may have been paid in 2005, but doesn’t appear in any PDVSA public accounting for either year.
It’s interesting that the government’s defense is not on a playing field Guerra can access, since the BCV hasn’t released the relevant data. Why don’t they meet him where he is? Especially since he’s using their numbers, not his own. It’s called ducking, isn’t it?
It’s quite telling that you accept unsupported claims as fact, while ignoring methods - official government numbers, mind you - that could (in theory at least) confirm what you hope is true. Especially when they don’t. (And if Guerra has "no credibility," why don't they?)
What’s the difference? Your bias.
The case of Lucas has gone before Venezuelan courts. Just as Venezuela is waiting to hear from U.S. courts. So just as I said, Venezuela follows the law both when requesting extradition and when recieving requests for extradition. Unlike the U.S. which only follows the law when recieving requests for extradition.
So your Lucas example doesn't do anything to show that Venezuela has double standards like the U.S. does (not to mention Lucas isn't even accused of an act of terrorism). I thought you were going to show something interesting like Venezuela kidnapped people in other countries. But you didn't. So we are left with only the double standards of the U.S.
"What is clearly shown is that Carruyo says all funds are accounted for. Nothing more. Even in this ?most transparent government,? you have NO WAY to verify this information, do you? Just one man?s words."
Gee the man only is the head of finance of PDVSA. I'd think he'd know the real numbers. And at least his numbers aren't obvious lies like Guerras and yours are.
"in the first quarter, Ramirez said that PDVSA gave $6.433 billion to the BCV."
Really, then why didn't they quote him if he really said that? Probably because he didn't really say it and they just want to BS. If he really said it they'd have it in quotes. Typical of El Universal.
"For the first quarter, we do ? Central Bank statistics. Using those, and comparing them to official PDVSA statements, leaves a noticeable gap. Or does it? Unless you can prove Guerra wrong, I?d have to say it does. No one has so far."
Does he get his numbers from the BCV or PDVSA? In his articles he says some are from BCV but in the chart you linked to it says on the top that the figures are from PDVSA. Just shows this persons slopiness.
But lets cut to the chase. Yes I can show he is lying. Take a price of say $38 per barril then mutiply it by 90 days and mutiply that by 2.2 million (Venezuelan exports after discounting 3.2 million barrels produced minus 1 million in domestic consumption and Orinoco production) Do that calculation and and I bet you don't come up with the 9.652 billion dollars he uses - not even close. So you see he is lying (and thats just one aspect of his lies - he is probably lying on all sorts of other things too).
Of course, he tries to be clever with his lie and say he got the number from the BCV balance of payments. Nice try but no cigar. You can't include the Orinoco production numbers in the calculations of how much PDVSA should have been turning over to the BCV.
And of course with 2004 he did the same thing. He claims 32 billion in revenue. Do the math with a average export price of $33/barrel and it is easily seen he is lying about that too - just see what 2.2 million x 365 x $33 equals.
So heres the key question. Are you clueless enough that you don't undertand this issue? Or are you just intentionally lying like Guerra is because you don't like the powers that be in Venezuela?
BTW, did your twin write the BS article shown on Vcrisis? It is hysterical. I had to get a screen shot. Otherwise no one will believe me when I say there was an article with such ridiculous numbers
“Gee the man only is the head of finance of PDVSA. I'd think he'd know the real numbers”
And the question isn’t what he KNOWS, but what he SAYS. Don’t forget that this man’s summer home (in Miami, no less) is worth more than I’ve made in my entire lifetime, and his son likes to crash Lamborghinis in his spare time. He conceivably has a financial incentive to lie. Something a rational, unbiased person would consider rather than buy his speech without question.
“Does he get his numbers from the BCV or PDVSA?”
“Of course, he tries to be clever with his lie and say he got the number from the BCV balance of payments. Nice try but no cigar.”
http://www.bcv.org.ve/excel/2_4_...2_4_1.xls?
id=36
Cell F11 – not that you bothered to investigate on your own. I’d love to hear why your calculation is more right than the official number. (One reason yours is wrong is that it has to include Orinoco oil. Where else could it go in that balance sheet? Or do you think it’s not an export?) Sorry, but I consider the BCV just a bit more credible than you.
2004: same link, click 2004, cell B11.
“So heres the key question. Are you clueless enough that you don't undertand this issue?”
Apparently, you are. Well, clueless enough not to underStand (don’t know about undertand). Or perhaps just motivated to pretend not to. Like Carruyo.
JN,
Nice dodge. Do the calculations. Show me how he arrived at the 9.6 billion number. Show me what it included. And if it included funds that PDVSA doesn't control and don't enter Venezuela show where those are backed out in his subsequent table.
"One reason yours is wrong is that it has to include Orinoco oil. Where else could it go in that balance sheet?"
If you want to count that money, fine count it - as total Venezuelan exports. But then show me where it was backed out on his chart. You certianly can't count it as money that should have been turned over to the BCV.
BTW, I forgot to point out that you dodged on Lucas. But like I said before, I can wait until Posada Update XII. You WILL include it, won't you?
"Nice dodge"
By you. What makes you think you can avoid those numbers, since it's the official total? Give me a reason. It's straight out of the balance of payments, something fundamental that basically every country in the world publishes every single year. Asking me for the calculation would be like me asking you to calculate the GDP stats. Doesn't get any more official than that. Besides, I've heard that number comes from PDVSA, so maybe you should ask them how to replicate it.
"You certianly can't count it as money that should have been turned over to the BCV"
Certainly? Based on...what? Again, give me a reason. What is certain is that to assume it stays out is illogical, considering that PDVSA is about 40% owner of the projects and that otherwise you wouldn't have the royalty rate - you know, the one that got upped last year (if 1% of production is 0, so is 16.7%).
Well JN I see you are trying to avoid simple arithmatic at all costs. Can?t say I blame you. But here, I?ll do your work for you.
First, the Stategic Associations are run and administered by the foriegn partners ? PDVSA despite its fractional ownership doesn?t run them. The oil is commercialized by the foriegn partners and the revenues never have to enter Venezuela unless there is something they have to pay here.
So lets work some numbers for a WHOLE year (2004 as that is what Guerra did) as that is appearently what you want:
Venezuean oil procution is said to be 3.2 million barrels per day. Of that about 400,000 is for domestic consumption and another 600,000 is Orinoco production. That leaves 2.2 million for export. And how much money should that have brought in for 2004? Lets see:
2.2 million x $33/barrel x 365 days per year = $26.5 billion
Note that is not the $32.5 billion your friend Guerra claims. How could he have come up with that number? Lets back into it:
32.5 billion divided by $33 divided by 365 gives 2.7 million barrels a day. So although its not an exact match (all the numbers are just aproximates) its clear he DID include the Orinoco prodution.
Now that we have that straight lets continue with some calculations and see what we get and then come back to the question of including or not the Orinoco procution.
Taking the 26.5 billion that comes without the Orinoco production and subtracting out the expenses given by Guerra (I have no idea if they?re correct but for sake of arguement I?ll use them) we have.
$26.5 total revenenue less:
2.39 billion for operating agreement payments
2.30 billion for debt payments
1.373 billion for imports
1.8 billion for Fondes
.600 billion for the rotating fund.
Do the subtraction and you get $18.036 billion. Now the BCV got $20.5 billion so we have unexplained extra revenues of $2.5 billion.
But that can probably be explained. For example, if the Orinoco project generated $7.2 billion (I assume you can at least figure that arithmatic out now that I?ve shown you how) Venezuela is entitled to a whopping $72 MILLION in royalties (under the 1% royalty rate negotiated by the Vendepatrias). Plus lets say Citgo paid dividends of $400 million just to pick a number. Rounding lets say thats $.5 billion so there is still $2 billion to be explained. Well there would be Venezuela?s share of the profits from the Orinoco sales which could make up part (all?) of the rest of it.
So as can be seen it looks like everything is easily accounted for EVEN using Guerra?s expense numbers.
But lets go back to question of possibly including the Orinoco numbers in the caculation. If Guerra wants to do that he can. But then he would have to subract out all of the dollars from those sales that go to the foriegn partners. For one the profits which alone would be potentially billions of dollars. Then any operating costs paid in dollars overseas (probably most all equipment and salaries). Yet, I don?t see where Guerra has ever accounted for any of those numbers in his calculations. So am I to believe the foriegn partners don?t make any profit? They do this very sophisticated process to produce synthetic crude and yet don?t incur dollar expenses? Yeah sure. The complete ignoring of these numbers in his calcuations shows this isn?t a serious endevour but rather typical opposition propoganda that is produced in the hope of finding a few dupes who will believe it. Again nice try but no cigar.
So there you have it Guerra rebutted and shown to be wrong.
“Note that is not the $32.5 billion your friend Guerra claims’
Note that it isn’t his claim, but the Central Bank’s! http://www.bcv.org.ve/excel/
2_4_..._4_...2_4_1.xls? id=36
sheet 2004, cell B11. (It’s been reduced now – all the way to $31.9 billion.)
You just don’t get that, do you? BCV numbers are NOT negotiable, nor are they subject to second-guessing by kibitzers like you. They are the official numbers, and if you don’t like them, it has NOTHING to do with Guerra.
I do note that you can’t even come close to accounting for the gap left by using that number, which as the official number is the only one that matters. And that’s even after you contradict yourself: “the revenues never have to enter Venezuela” and “there would be Venezuela?s share of the profits from the Orinoco sales which could make up part (all?) of the rest of it”. Is that the real reason you can’t accept it, or is it plain ignorance?
Another contradiction: “So am I to believe the foriegn partners don?t make any profit? They do this very sophisticated process to produce synthetic crude and yet don?t incur dollar expenses?”. Those “dollar expenses” can’t possibly influence whether they make a profit, can they?
If you can’t handle simple concepts like those, you really have no clue about economics. It goes WAY beyond “simple arithmatic” (sic).
I came here hoping for an intelligent discussion, and you can’t hold up your end.
Trappped so you try to obfuscate I see. The numbers you refer to are total export numbers. Fine Venezuela exported $32 billion in oil in 2004. That is correct as far as it goes and isn't in dispute.
But what you and Guerra are trying to play games with is what portion of those monies are to have re-entered Venezuela. Both you and Guerra are assuming 100% of those monies enter Venezuela go to the BCV. That is patently false. The oil from the Orinoco projects belongs to the foriegn partners, they sell it, they get the money, and they are free to keep their profits and their dollar expenses outside of Venezuela without the money entering Venezuela. And you can't show in Guerra's articles or table where he has accounted for that. For me this is too glaring of an error for Guerra just to have been mistaken. It looks like an intentional distortion for propoganda purposes to me.
"I came here hoping for an intelligent discussion, and you can’t hold up your end."
Oh yes, really intelligent discussion on your end. When confronted with your numbers having been bogus you lack the basic integrity to admit your errors. I have to say from your arguements up to this point I am not surprised. You come not for intelligent discussion but simply to propogandize and lie.
Just Noticing:
OW is right on this. That oil isn't commercialized by PDVSA. Its sold by us - I have to confess some of those dollars put food on my table. If it helps think of it as oil rights sold by auction. If a company buys oil rights it pays initially and then no royalties. If it produces a million barrels of oil will appear in the balance of payments but not necessarily re-enter the country.
OW, you did make a mistake in your calculations. You assumed the synthetic oil sells at the same prices as Venezuela's basket. It doesn't. It sells at something of a discount. But your numbers are still essentially correct and the revenue is all accounted for.
Anyways, if you're going to be debunking all this crap you better quit your job and go full time.
Sandy, very interesting. You apparently work for one of the associations (which one doesn't matter), and I do understand the commercialization principle, that the SAs produce the oil, then they sell it themselves, and PDVSA is not directly involved.
But let me ask two questions. First, what happens to the royalty - does it stay out of Venezuela? If so, those are petro-dollars that PDVSA has to account for somehow, no matter where they end up. They weren't enormous last year - even after going up to 16.7%, which took effect in October, right? - but there is no explanation whatsoever.
Second, PDVSA owns an average of about 40% (it varies from about 35% up to 49.9%) of each SA. As a silent partner, they are entitled to that percentage of revenue. Where does that go? Note that no one has accused the SAs of doing anything illegal, so if they are withholding the money, they would seem to have a contractual reason for doing so. Can you share anything about that?
I'm not the person who cuts the check. But I would say that you are correct in assuming that money was paid in 2004. And as OW's numbers, his pricing mistake notwithstanding, showed it was almost certianly received by the BCV.
The royalties being paid from my understanding still 1%. The increase to 16.7% is still in dispute/negotiation. It will ultimately be the 16% but we are going to have to get something in return. The royalties will therefore have to get paid retroactively later in the year once a final agreement is hammered out.
The percentage of gross earnings that PDVSA is entitled to gets paid out in the last quarter of the year. The SAs are on a October to September FY so they can close their books and make payment before the end of the calender year.
Hope this helps. Now, can you tell us where the SA numbers are deducted in Guerra's calculations. Thanks in advance.
Sandy, thanks for answering. I know that the rayalty increase is still in dispute, but I thought the government's position was that it wasn't optional, and expects the companies to pay "si o si." I'd encourage you to ask someone in accounting more about it, just for your own information - it really is an important issue, and one that certainly isn't clear in public.
"can you tell us where the SA numbers are deducted in Guerra's calculations"
Ask PDVSA - it's their responsibility.
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