Churchman Roberto Luckert shows evidence of deep psychological pain and distress.
It is as though Venezuela were occupied by enemy forces, and people were being shot in the streets or kidnapped and tortured -- as bad as in Baghdad today.
I have read through some of the posts from http://www.noticierodigital.com/...der=asc&
start=0
My Spanish is not good -- but am I right in this? That those anti-Chavez posters have huge self-loathing -- they think that if they were real men, they would overthrow Chavez themselves. As it is, they can only hope for the Americans to do it instead.
Well, so long as they think they are helpless and incapable of doing anything, I guess Chavez is safe from them. He probably has their psychology well figured out.
Finally, I thought that the Evangelicals were non-political and somewhat pro-Chavez.
Are they just as anti-Chavez as the Catholics?
Well, Chavez recently kicked a US-based missionary group called New Tribes out of Venezuela, on the grounds that they were spying, exploiting natural resources without permission, and abusing the native peoples they claimed to be ministering to. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the fundies took that as a personal affront and turned against Chavez because of it. On the other hand, their numbers are relatively small, so the impact they'd make is not significant...
More troubling to me, though, is the notion that religious leaders feel free to meddle so openly in politics, trying to undercut the humanitarian work of Chavez's government (my, how Christian of them to care so much!). Clearly the need for a separation of church and state is huge in Venezuela--remember, there were BISHOPS openly supporting the near-assassination of Chavez--one of them was actually trying to pressure him against his will to resign. And there is at least one retired churchman now still calling for his head.
On the bright side, though, all such efforts look to be backfiring. In which case, I say...go ahead, Copeyanos! Dig your own grave, lie down in it, and pull the dirt down on your own heads! Save Chavez the trouble--he's too busy being a REAL Christian to the people YOU have so long refused to serve! 
I look on the New Tribes clean-up as necessary, but minor, work. After all, they have been accused of spying for decades. They aren't particularly numerous among evangelicals, though -- and I was wondering about the position of other evangelical groups.
With regard to the rich folks and associated clergy living in dreamlnd, believing they are persecuted and oppressed, I was reminded of Sun Tzu's dictum about war:
"To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
Chavez has it made -- since these guys have no strong motivation to do more than just talk and dream of an imaginary world.
And put up only a token resistance.
I do wonder though, since they are so out of it, whether they drink more and use drugs more ...
Owl,
Yeah, some of the comments were interesting. From the ones I read they were more complaining that the armed forces wouldn't launch a coup. And that has been a constant theme. Remember the womens panties they mailed to the military because they complained they weren't real men?
But failing their own armed forces doing it they appear more than happy to have the US do it. What I don't get is if they have so much support in Venezuelan society, as they claim, why don't they go into the mountains and start guerrilla warfare against the government? Probably because that requires actually having popular support, intelligence, cunning, courage, and a willingness to sacrifice for your cause - all things the opposition supporters lack
I think some religious leaders may have supported Chavez. But very few. Chavez himself used to make a lot of religious references in his speeches, but not so many now.
It may be that Chavez feels less need to appeal to people on religious grounds now; his deeds speak for themselves. Whereas those of the Copeyanos...well, they do too, but not quite the way the oppos would like to paint them...
BTW, here's a piece in greater depth on the evangelical movement(s) in Venezuela:
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/....php?
artno=1561
And here's another on Chavez's actions against New Tribes in particular:
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/...php?
newsno=1784
Chavez certainly isn't the only one to find the New Tribes suspect at best. Even the other evangelicals have complained about them--which should tell you something. Yet until now, New Tribes seems to have slickly evaded all consequences for their actions.
Funny how it all seems to have fallen to Chavez to deal with this mess! You'd think, if the oppos were really serious about cleaning up corruption in Venezuela, they'd want to start with something as small and feasible as that...
"It may be that Chavez feels less need to appeal to people on religious grounds now"
Absolutely, I don't think you could be more right about that.
I think one of the virtues of booting the New Tribes is the Mormons packed up and left shortly thereafter. What a great two for one deal. Just getting rid of the Mormons alone justifies getting rid of the New Tribes, irrespective of whatever else they did.
Bye-bye, cultural imperialism. Nice NOT knowing you...
BTW, New Tribes is based out of...drumroll please!...FLORIDA. Surprise, surprise, eh? So it turns out Chavez was not just tootling what some might call standard leftist rhetoric about imperialism. So far, everything he's said about the matter has proved only too true, even if the truth came out rather later than one might hope. Anything that's based in Washington or Florida, especially Miami, is TOXIC to Venezuela one way or another.
I wouldn't be surprised to find out, after due lapse of time, that Chavez DOES have proof that the New Tribes were up to no good down there in the backwaters. I mean, just look at all the stuff he's said about the CIA and its role in the repeated attempts to topple him. Seemed loony at the time to those not paying proper attention, but everything has since been proven in spades. When even the decidedly opposed Alvaro Uribe admits that Colombian forces have been complicit in the plots, you know that there's something to it.
Ann O.--yeah, these New Tribes are based in Sanford, FL, not too far from ole Slave here...scary, scary.
I am way, way against letting these wacked-out fundamentalists anywhere close to indigenous people. "Darkness in El Dorado" by Patrick Tierny was an excellent narration of the damage that anthropologists, clerics, and evangelicals have done to native peoples in the area of Venezuela.
As far as religion and politics is concerned, they are very tied together here in the US, only in a very amorphous, loose way, but very connected.
The Morons...I mean Mormons have a huge church here in Central Florida and own a huge swath of land. These people always reminded me of fanatics. They are definately fanatic about supporting imperial wars, never speaking up about ecological destruction or poverty, and worshiping the accumulation of material wealth. They have a Gabriel angle on the top of their steeple that is made of gold (probably plated). I'd like to use weaponry to blow it to bits.
Yes, religious obscurantism is a major problem for humankind. I respect some religious folks, however, those who oppose war and align themselves with the most exploited in our society. Not too many of those around though.
Off topic: it seems that Humala, the presidential candidate of the Bolivarian left in Peru is up five points over his oligarchic competitor. LOL
The head of the congress and a top Peruvian bishop have made statements today attacking Chavez's 'interference'.
Oh, yeah, pig-fuckers, keep digging your own graves. 
The bolivarians need to keep working their way up north. Maybe in another fifteen years we might get an authentically leftist president here in the US.
Hey, one can always dream, rigth? Bush hasn't outlawed, slashed, or privatized dreaming yet, has he?
We are living in the time of slave revolt, slave-time. dig it, check your weapons, stoke the fire, ride!
So, Ollanta Humala has pulled ahead? I knew THAT was coming. Chavez has the political Midas touch--anyone he expresses approval of, ends up wildly popular. Golden, you might say.
Swami predicts Ollanta will win at least 52% of the vote, given that Chavez got a landslide of 56% and Evo Morales, one of 54%. As he still has some weeks of campaigning yet to go, this means he'll have plenty of time to hit that golden number.
Good news out of Peru. When is their actual election? And when is Mexicos?
I'm happy with all these victories but having Obrador win in Mexico is the BIG prize. Then maybe Latin America can wage a pre-emptive war against the U.S. and liberate us from Bush. Uh oh, I'm starting to think like those people on ND
BTW, anyone see the Foreign Policy article on "Boss Hugo". Chock full of lies and inaccuracies. I bet the guy had Sumate write it for him. Win win, Sumate gets its propoganda out and he gets a article published under his name to add to his CV.
Anyways, you can read it at Vcrisis. Let me know if you think this is worth a rebuttal. Someone should certainly write somthing on it - sounds like maybe a job for Venezuelanalysis.
OW, they're already on it:
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/....php?
artno=1642
Talk about yer smackdowns.
BTW, things are looking good in Chile for Michelle Bachelet, the Socialist candidate who could become their first female president very soon:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/ameri...cas/
4613864.stm
She is a survivor of the tortures of the Pinochet regime. Her father was killed by the Pinochetists. Talk about poetic justice in the making.
Meanwhile, here's a look at what's up for Latin America overall:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/s...ml/
nn1page1.stm
Peru's big day is April 9, and I hardly need say I'll be watching with great interest...
OW:
BTW, anyone see the Foreign Policy article on "Boss Hugo". Chock full of lies and inaccuracies. I bet the guy had Sumate write it for him.
This deserves rebuttle, and it could be done very easily with articles and information already contained in Oilwars. The oppo fluff piece assumes a great many things and is completely false on others. I wonder if there is a connection between the title of the article and certain christmas gift I received which I made mention of here? Im gonna have to start copyrighting soon.
Thanks to the link from Ann it looks like it was already rebutted. But there is just a lot of straight out propoganda. Examples:
1) Chavez instituted a new law penalizing insutling the president. Venezuela has always had such a law.
2) Chavez has not made progress against poverty. BS. The INE stats show it is down significantly inspite of opposition sabatage that temporarily boosted it.
3) The government has a list of how people voted. Nonsense, they have no way of knowing who voted how. Even before pulling the fingerprint reading machines the govt couldn't tell how people voted because everything was incrypted and the opposition controlled part of the key (several digits) to the encryption.
4)Chavez changed procedural rules in the AN. How did he do that? He has no say in the AN. Again they trot out the lie because the AN has a majority of people who support Chavez it is controlled by Chavez. By that logic the US congress and courts are controlled by Bush.
5) Chavez is responsible for polariztion. Yeah right. The people who call Chavez supporters monkeys, who carry out coups, who shut down the oil industry, who block highways and stone passing cars, who regularly call for coups or assasination of Chavez, who make anti-Chavez propoganda 24/7 in the media, who regularly compare Chavez to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc - those people have NOTHING to do with polarizing the country.
Thats just from my memory of what I read last night. I'm sure he screwed up lots of other things too - I just can't think of them now.
OW--what this and myriad other articles confirm is that these 'journalists' are really paid to be propagandists first and foremost. The 'truth' or critical reporting has nothing to do with it, the truth is incidental toward the goal of manipulating popular opinion in ways that are efficacious to corporations and large insitutions.
If the 'truth' is an issue, then the type of reporting developed in relation to Haiti could not happen. I mean, seriously, it is as though this is the Soviet Union of old--the empire has invaded and the journalists job is to make the coup and attack on democratic norms seem legit. Bullshit!
No, journalism as a profession and institution in the US is thouroughly discredited in my eyes. The sins of commission and ommission point up that this has become an empire that is not capable of sustained critical discussion, dissent, or investigative, nuanced discussions.
Outside of a few exceptions, expect the mainstream media here in the US to lie, distort, and censor information about Veneuzela as a matter of course.
Sadly, the distortion seems intended mostly for the 'educated' professional classes whose ability to think critically has never been developed during the course of their education. The are incapable of incorporating nuance and contradiction in their thinking about issues.
In short, this is the group who would read Foreign Policy Review--and after having done so, believe that they are 'in-the-know' LOL. If you ever corner one of these armchair commisars with 'facts', critical thinking, logic, and a little bit of history, they are left blabbering, charging their opponent as being 'for the terrorists' etc. LOL
I have decided that perhaps my one joy in life, aside from watching Latin Americans develop a progressive adgenda, is to watch the empire fall apart and become enfeebled, little by little. There just is not any current narrative where the US as a world power is contributing anything at all challenging or positive to humankind.
The supporters of the status quo parasitism are simply too far gone to be redeemable--like the supporters of Nazi atrocities after WWII, these people seem to have no soul or ability to ethically reflect. Scary.
off topic.
You know how in the media Maria Corina Machado gets portrayed as a struggling single mom who set up an NGO to care for poor kids. Well check this out:
http://2030ymas.blogspot.com/
Apparently her family owns a nice little steel company that only made 126 million dollars in profits last year. Pobrecita.
You know how in the media Maria Corina Machado gets portrayed as a struggling single mom who set up an NGO to care for poor kids. Well check this out:
LOL that is a gem! poor little rich girl. D'ya think she'll looks as stunning in orange?
I was wondering - How much of the national GDP is represented (in monetary figures) among the signers of the Carmona decree of which Machado is a signatory? Do you think it possible to gather the names and put a dollar figure on each one?
Careful...if you take and publish their names, they will claim you're trying to keep them out of work. Remember that "Maisanta list" bullshit?
Ann O:
...if you take and publish their names, they will claim you're trying to keep them out of work.
They did that themselves when they signed in support of the Carmona Govt.
Work?! they dont need to work!
We dont need no steeenkeeeeen jobs
"How much of the national GDP is represented (in monetary figures) among the signers of the Carmona decree of which Machado is a signatory?"
Probably quite a bit. But it would be hard to track down. For example I had no idea her family owned that company. It was always clear that they were affluent. But no we see they are spectacularly rich [and btw, given that these people INDIVIDUALLY have hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars of wealth why don't they finance their own stupid political movement rather than hitting the US taxpayers up for millions of dollars. Think of it, every dollar given to SUMATE is one less dollar to help homeless people in New York]. Kind of funny even Juan Forero never picked up on this when he wrote the article on her.
Pulpo:
What was thank link supposed to be to?
Juan Forero is a BushCo hack. Why would he do the basic bit of spadework it takes to look into the backgrounds of these people when his job is to TOUT them? Wouldn't surprise me if he were one of the many CIA plants at the NY Whore Times...after all, we all know Judy Miller was kind of cozy with that embezzler, Chalabi, whom BushCo wanted talked-up as a future leader of Iraq...not to mention SHE was the author of all those phoney WMD fairytales. Coincidence???
What was thank link supposed to be to?
Whoa! how did that happen?
Here:
http://www.soberania.org/
Articul...rticulo_841.htm
Scroll to bottom of page for list of signatires to Carmona Decree.
Ok, Pulpo, that looks a lot better
Ann, I wouldn't put Juan Forero on Judy Millers level. She is complete slime, her little jail stint notwhithstanding. Forero is at least fairly honest and does try to make sure both points are view are captured in his articles. And so far his articles haven't gotten the US into any war. Now, if he starts talking up WMD in Venezuela....
The NY Times is basically prostrate to the Bush administration. It looks semi-objective, but it's not. They'll print what he tells them to, and omit what he tells them not to. Haven't we seen as much just recently, when it turns out they SAT ON A STORY FOR ONE FULL YEAR because it would influence the outcome of an election adversely for BushCo?
I'd put nothing past them. Including the purchase of one Juan Forero. I just wonder if they ordered him to tie himself up with a ribbon.
Incidentally, the Washington Post is not much better. You should see what Nora Boustany wrote about Machado. I could puke!
THE SWEEP CONTINUES
Pinera concedes defeat in Chile election
Socialist Bachelet set to become first female president
Sunday, January 15, 2006 Posted: 2310 GMT (0710 HKT)
SANTIAGO, Chile (CNN) -- Presidential candidate Sebastian Pinera conceded defeat Sunday in the runoff against Socialist candidate Michelle Bachelet, leaving Bachelet poised to become Chile's first female president.
"I want to thank Michelle Bachelet for her triumph today, not just because she's the first woman president in the history of the country," he said.
Still, he added, "The fight continues ... we will continue to be a firm and constructive opposition."
Pinera delivered his speech after the Interior Ministry reported that Bachelet led Sunday's runoff by a 53-to-47 percent margin.
Supporters of the 54-year-old Bachelet, a one-time political prisoner, were claiming victory, though she had made no public statement.
More than 67 percent of the polling stations had reported, the Interior Ministry said.
Bachelet served as defense minister under outgoing President Ricardo Lagos. Her opponent, Pinera, is a conservative airline and broadcasting tycoon who studied economics at Harvard University in Massachusetts.
Bachelet spent five years in exile after the 1973 coup that brought Gen. Augusto Pinochet to power. Her father, an air force general, was tortured and killed after the coup, and Bachelet herself was tortured before being sent into exile in Australia.
She completed her training as a pediatrician in East Germany and served as health minister in Chile's center-left government before becoming defense minister.
"What I want, and have and will always work for, is to build a society in which what happened to me and so many Chileans can never be repeated," she said recently.
Her victory would add to a leftward political shift in Latin America.
Leftists hold presidential power in Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay and Venezuela, and Bolivian President-elect Evo Morales -- a former coca farmer and union leader who promises to nationalize the country's natural gas industry -- is slated to take office January 22. (Full story)
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORL.../15/chile.vote/
CONGRATULATIONS PRESIDENT BACHELETE
Well, we will see if Bachelete is willing to become a tool for the neocon policy, or if she will help S. American integration. Hopefully, she will not let herself become a tool for Washington, but you never know. Despite the accolades given to Chile from the Chicago boys and true believers in the neoliberal adgenda, there are huge amounts of permanently impoverished people in Chile who have not benefited from the 'economic boom'.
Given her history and demeanor, I would not look for her to become a critic of Washington, or to do anything that pisses off the business elites. She is likely to follow a similar path to Lagos, but to engage some modest reforms.
In short, she seems cut from the cloth of a Liberal, in the usual sense of the word here in the US: pro-business and moderately reformist.
But we shall see if she will be known as an agent for social justice in any marked way in the Americas. As they say, time will tell.
Excellent analysis Slave - She certianly is no Evo. Ive noticed in every article where there is a picture of her she looks like a professional, meaning she looks like a business type person. I have to go on the assumption that she means what she says. Where as with Evo you can SEE he means what he says. Ive not seen the man in suit yet, and more power to him.
I agree, I don't expect too much from her. But nothing is a given and given that you have solid leftists who are being successful that may help drag her at least a little further to the left than should would otherwise be.
Now can you imagine victories in Peru and Mexico? Will Latin America EVER have had so many left of center governments in power? I doubt it. Pretty soon the US might be the lone holdout of reaction in the western hemisphere.
back on topic. At the huge Divina Pastora mass in Barquisimeto Cardinal Lara gave a strident anti-Chavez speech and almost had to run for his life. The hundreds of thousands in attendance made it clear they were not happy with the anti-Chavez stupidities of this idiot. Lubrio even has a podcast:
http://lubrio.blogspot.com/2006/
...y.html#comments
And going to a strongly pro-Chavez area like Barquisimeto and giving anti-Chavez speeches is smart, Realy, realy smart. I wonder if this guy was born this stupid or this was part of his training.
OW--this 'religous' asshole learned his stupidity from the same schools as GW Bush.
I wathed the video, but had difficulty in discerning what was happening. Certainly this guy's delivery was stilted. The crowd was very, very loud, and I could sense a lot of tension from the situation.
What an idiot, though. This guy has been reading too many opposition blogs if he was expecting to mobilize the crowd and signal a defeat for Chavez.
The people of Barquisimeto seem to know that this idiot has been subsidized, wined and dined, by the venal Venezulean rightwing elite.
Really, he'd do much better as padre for the oligarchy in Miami, than in Venezuela.
Pulpo, happy new year to you comandante.
I checked out wikopedia, about Chavez, the editing section, and I saw the mark of the squid written large. Great job amigo--you even managed to get publicized in some esqualido blogs--no small acheivement for an anonymous squid!
But you are not a mere 'squid'--you are El Comandante, a person to be reckoned with, a revolutionary helping along a growing revolt against human injustice and rightwing imperialism.
The Slave salutes you Comandante P.--we will fuck'em up more in 2006. We will not rest until the US ceases to exist as an imperialist oppressor,and we will have moved humankind in a more progressive direction. Or--we will both have died trying.
Stoke the fire, check your weapons, mount your horses---ride!
So, the right-wing cardinal had to make a run for it? Serves him right for overstepping his boundaries. Maybe now he'll confine himself to matters of the spirit and leave politics alone.
The writing is on the wall for the church--either they serve the people, or they get the fuck out. Which is it gonna be?
PS: Congrats, Michelle Bachelet. Hope she has the courage to depart a bit from the more centrist factions in her coalition and turn left. We'll see...
BTW, Chavez seems to share my opinion of the cardinal's putting his oar in:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/ameri...cas/
4615776.stm
"Venezuela's socialist leader has now hit back by saying this was 'shameful for the Catholic Church'.
"Mr Chavez said he had called the Pope's representative in Caracas but that he was so far not satisfied with the explanation offered by the Vatican's ambassador.
"The Venezuelan head of state said the Church should stick to spiritual work and stay out of politics altogether."
That's our hombre...
Well, I definately don't put it past the Pope and his church to side with imperialism and the oligarchs to try to stymie the leftwing swing in the region.
Sorry, for any Catholics out there--but Slave does not support the Church. Some of its clergy, I do support, but for the most part, the higher-ups in the Church align themselves with the people that killed Christ. I judge them by their works, and what they say.
Notice how little this new pope has said about the illegal occupation and invasion of Iraq, for instance. No, the Pope has aligned himself with Satan, and the murderers of Christ.
Now--somebody call me an 'anti-semite'.
I'm with you on this, SR--any churchman who's not a liberation theologist, is a Christ-killer. Plain and simple. And since Rome is now under the thumb of the former head inquisitor who tried to crush liberation theology...well, you can do the math! These people side with the oligarchy over humanity, as you say...and that is totally unworthy of those who purport to represent Christ on Earth.
BTW, what's with his speaking at a mass, if he's retired? I was of the belief that you couldn't have it both ways. Maybe being a pro-oligarchy churchlackey somehow magically exempts one from that?
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