If the opposition win, they would have to acknowledge Venezuelan democracy.
Will they claim fraud?
We were discussing with other oppos: who are you guys? And we found a pattern everywhere. You are in the world a tiny minority, you are the extreme left. You make up less than 3 per cent in the electorate of any Western nation.
Some normal socialists initially believed Chavez might be an option, but they do not believe that anymore. So only you stay talking about the same BS and you are becoming isolated.
Did you see the local elections in Zulia, where in a region with - supposedly - 11 thousand PSUV members, only 4 thousand voted for Chavez?
But the whole bunch of elections everywhere are of little importance to Chavez as he will soon anyway redo the whole political map.
So if someone wins or loses for the next year or so, that does not mean anything for the Chavistas. They are going to modify every single part of the internal borders in the next year to make up for any loss.
With that and with closing down further oppo media, they expect to stay longer in power and go on plundering and pretending to be "socialist".
So flourishing is the democracy that they'll use signatures on the recall form to fire you. You never miss a beat, do you, Dan.
Fire who? Politicians who aren't doing their jobs?
Don't people in the U.S. wish they could fire Bush?
"Did you see the local elections in Zulia, where in a region with - supposedly - 11 thousand PSUV members, only 4 thousand voted for Chavez?"
No, it was a candidate in a local election who got few votes. Gee, people split their votes in VEnezuela, like any normal democracy, and they don't vote for candidates they don't like no matter what party they vote for. Sounds like about as healthy a democracy as you can get.
"We were discussing with other oppos: who are you guys? And we found a pattern everywhere. You are in the world a tiny minority, you are the extreme left. You make up less than 3 per cent in the electorate of any Western nation."
I'm not sure who you are talking about. But if it is people who support Chavez, in the one country that counts they are 63% of the electorate.
"If the opposition win, they would have to acknowledge Venezuelan democracy."
Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
Actually if anyone wins it will like be Chavista voters unhappy with the performance of some Chavista office holders.
Venezuela evalúa la posibilidad de comprar a Rusia 9 submarinos, equipados con motor diesel. No obstante, el jefe del Estado Mayor Presidencial, Alberto Müller Rojas, aclaró que "hasta ahora no hay recursos adjudicados para eso".
Según el diario ruso Kommersant, citado por RIA Novosti, el presidente Hugo Chávez firmaría el convenio de compraventa durante su viaje a Moscú, previsto para el 29 de junio, e incluiría la adquisición de 5 submarinos de ataque tipo 636 y de 4 modelo Amur 677, por $2.000 millones.
New tanks, bombers, rifles.... Chavez is spending money on the military like a drunken sailor?
Lies, damn lies and statistics. And idiots who believe and use them.
"You are in the world a tiny minority, you are the extreme left. You make up less than 3 per cent in the electorate of any Western nation."
Oooh. So that surely means we're wrong.
But no, seriously, most lefty posters here could be considered extreme left ONLY, if they could at all, by the fact that the center has shifted so much to the right in the last 20 years that the acceptable face of the Empire, presented by papers like the NYTimes and the WaPo is now called "the left". I got a question for you: if we're such extremists and our opinion doesn't matter, then what on Earth are you doing posting here?
I think you are a sore loser. Plain and simple. You're whining because Chavismo has you by the balls and there's nothing you can do about it. And it has so much democratic support that by the lights of it, it's very unlikely that those of your ilk will ever win a election in Venezuela again, unless it's one of those "Made in USA" elections like the Iraq one. But really,get used to the idea that, as the Chavistas say: You won't come back.
"New tanks, bombers, rifles.... Chavez is spending money on the military like a drunken sailor? "
Yeah, and I'm pretty sure that little piece of anecdotal evidence puts Chavez on par with the Empire's military expenditure. Or even with its minions like Colombia and Chile. Sure.
Lukashenka has still the majority in Belarus. How much support do you think Mugabe has in his country? I am sure less than before, but still a lot.
Chavez's support is low if you take into account the fortunes flooding in (unfortunately faster flooding out) Venezuela.
Ow, Chavez won't ever get 63 again unless he rigs completely the elections.
And I was talking about you and Slave Revolt, etc. You know you represent a stand that is quite tiny in the West or in Chile or Costa Rica or Mexico...
as for Venezuela, the mismanagement is making that 63 become 62, and 61 and 60 and...
Kepler, please, I invite you to back up your statements above with solid references, da facts.
Otherwise your post here is of little consequence.
OW, you are correct about the democratic nature of the Venezuelan government. However, what the upper classes and the empire's supporters do not want is the type of democracy where they have to answer to the people.
Here in the US we have the poor and the lower classes who consistently do not vote--this is accomplished by a combination of apathy and ignorance and circumstances.
Therefore we have a voting population that are looking what you would expect when looking at the retrograde, regressive nature of US society.
Big corporations de facto run the US. That is not the case in Venezuela because of authentic democratic reforms that help the poor that have mobilized to change the direction of the country.
What the empire and transnational capital really hate is authentic democracy--the type of citizen action that puts a damper on their profits. That is why the jsb's and the Keplers of the world are squealing like stuck pigs.
Indeed, a discussion of democracy without getting at the meaning of the root of the concept--'democracy'--is just propagandistic rhetoric.
Dan, you never heard of the Tascon list in your flourishing democracy? That's what I was referring to. Flourishing, my man.
Meanwhile (and off-topic, sorry) Chavez is lining the pockets of the boys down at Admiralteyskiye Verfi.
http://www.breitbart.com/article...&
show_article=1
Slave Revolt, you're the one who should be screaming like a pig. "transnational capital" is alive and well in Venezuela and about, thanks to Chavez' spending. His few highly visible attempts to portray his revolution as socialist have fooled you, I see. But your vision and his are far, far apart. I'm afraid your utopian vision of socialism will never be installed in Venezuela or anywhere else (besides Cuba and North Korea, of course). The fat cats are getting richer than ever off of Chavez. Are you pleased? Who's squealing now? Or is that just your crack pipe I hear.
"Dan, you never heard of the Tascon list in your flourishing democracy? That's what I was referring to. Flourishing, my man."
Yep, Tascon list was a way of identifying bogus signatures that had been forged by the opposition during the recall against Chavez.
Now that the process is better organized there will never be any need for that as the CNE is verifying signatures as people sign. Problem solved.
"Meanwhile (and off-topic, sorry) Chavez is lining the pockets of the boys down at Admiralteyskiye Verfi."
Is that what that is called? Then the main people "lining pockets" are the people who control the over $500 billion dollar per year US military budget. General Dynamics, Lockheed-Martin, Boeing, etc. send their thanks.
BTW, as you know from the previous post Venezuelan military spending is down under Chavez. Too bad the same can't be said for military spending under Bush.
"Ow, Chavez won't ever get 63 again unless he rigs completely the elections."
That is quite possibly true - people tire of all politicians. Then agian, if he does something about crime ....
"You know you represent a stand that is quite tiny in the West or in Chile or Costa Rica or Mexico..."
In the country I live in that is true at the present time. But your selection of countries is curious. Didn't they kill a lot of people who think like me in Chile? There must have been some reason for that.
And Mexico?!?!? Wasn't there some big contraversy about how many people think like SR in Mexico last July?
In Chile Pinochet killed a lot of people who were fighting for democracy. They killed lots of socialists. He did not killed people like you.
He killed mostly people who believed in pluralism.
Now about the lista Tascon: I told you to watch La Lista. There you can see Hugo Chavez saying that those who signed were going to pass to history because they had our id's, our signatures, "even the finger prints". Hello, that is more than just checking fraudulent signatures, which is fine for me.
Did you not hear and see with your own eyes how several Chavez ministers said whoever had signed would be fired?
You can see it here:
http://www.ciudadaniaactiva.org/...410&
plantilla=1
Ow, did you see the last youtube where Chavez explains what he understands under "socialism, fatherland or death"?
Is that your idea of socialism?
Gee..Chavez's "socialism, fatherland or death" vs. USA's "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness".
Negative vs. positive. Chavez's Madness vs The American Dream.
Methinks I am lucky being an American. I won't be moving to Venezuela any time soon.
"Gee..Chavez's "socialism, fatherland or death" vs. USA's "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness".
"
Yep. Mottos are always true. Can't find a better example of that that the Life, Liberty and Pursuit of happiness that the U.S. have showered Iraq with as of lately.
Hopefully John won't be moving to Venezuela anytime soon. Venezuela doesn't need idiotic simpletons from the "West" that as of yesterday couldn't find it in a map. It needs people with a commitment to social justice and a rebellious stance against imperialism. I'm afraid not many U.S. citizens even understand what that might mean, particularly in a country that is not theirs.
Hyper-democratic:
Long on elections, long on purported participation mechanisms, short on individual rights.
The socialist (and fascist) misappropriation of the word "democracy" takes it that the party winning elections has a mandate to trample those that difer from its views. Two wolves and a lamb deciding what is for dinner.
Democracy is a system for AGREEING to let someone manage the State, via ballot. It is just as important that those that lost the election or difer from the elected agree to him or her, and not feel threatened by this person. And that means that on the other hand the winner must respect their rights in a scrupulous manner.
Now, how is this compatible with anything Chavez has done?
Pepito,
Number one..I am not an idiotic simpleton. You show your weakness when you get into name calling. Number two. I visited Venezuela and know exactly where it is on the map. You make a claim without knowing the facts. I would like to return for a vacation but am concerned about safety.
I am a middle class American who only expected a level playing field and opportunity. I was taught if I wanted something go the the mirrow and ask that fella. In America unless you are extremely wealthy or extremely poor you are middle class. Middle class values are based on shared values..not income level. In other words America is basically a classless society. Everyone has the opportunity to get theirs by individual effort instead of expecting the government to hand deliver it to them.
Chavez is creating a cult society. He is promising people he will provide..thus people are sitting around on their tails waiting for Chavez to give it to them. His system is based on favoritism. Just look around the world and see countries with almost no resources yet they are doing well...why? it is because they work for it.
Have you ever heard anyone talk about the Venezuelan Dream? Maybe it is Chavez's Dream?
Also, you comment about social justice is non-sense. Chavez keeps saying if you don't agree with me then you just go take a hike. In other words justice is only for his supporters.
You are typical Chavez supporter trying to divert the discussion to another topic when you mention Iraq.
Also, just because I am opposed to Chavez it doesn't not make me pro-Bush or pro-oligarchy.
Venezuela isn't about democracy....it is about the Cult of Chavez.
"Tascon list was a way of identifying bogus signatures"
Very cynical, Dan. You know very well that the list was used in a nefarious way. You are an enabler. And have little or no credibility, simply for your denial.
I think John understands Venezuela much better that many of you guys who like to cut him down a few pegs. John has made some very strong points and observations which I see everyday living in Venezuela. (sorry OW more ancedotal evidence I'm afraid)
This is what the majority of us on the other side of the coin would agree with..."Also, just because I am opposed to Chavez it doesn't not make me pro-Bush or pro-oligarchy"
Unlike popular belief among you extreme lefties Bush does NOT spend his time advising the Venezuela Opposition. To say that would imply that he doesn't have a country to manage with its own problems.
And please get rid of the Chavista casette in your head (OW, SR, Pepito et al) It's getting old especially coming from you guys who compalin about the Empire but have no problem living there. It doesn't make you Socialists it makes you hypocrites.
In regards to the Tascon List...I know many people persoanlly that have been shut out of all sorts of jobs, programs, and benefits just because they signed for a recall. IS THAT democracy????
Pepito,
"Yep. Mottos are always true."
The motto must be true since you are still here.
Why don't you and your shit-for-brains wife move to Venezuela to live in liberty and to pursuit your happiness.
A of B, Sir Ow will say that he won't move over to Venezuela because either
1) he still has "some things to do" in the US
or
2) he has decided to carry out the ultimate sacrifice and stay in the US in order to make the US more a country like Venezuela. A real hero, thus.
There is no need to call someone shit-for-brains, though.
I prefer to discuss arguments and people I know somehow
"There you can see Hugo Chavez saying that those who signed were going to pass to history because they had our id's, our signatures, "even the finger prints""
And what exactly is your problem with that? Yes, poeple who signed against Chavez to bring back an old and rotten government would go down in history. But because they lost the vote history will probably be forgiving towards them.
"Ow, did you see the last youtube where Chavez explains what he understands under "socialism, fatherland or death"?"
Nope, put the url link here and I'll watch it.
Gee..Chavez's "socialism, fatherland or death" vs. USA's "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness".
Really John??? So what is this about?
http://www.aaroads.com/license_p.../nh-536-
656.jpg
"It is just as important that those that lost the election or difer from the elected agree to him or her, and not feel threatened by this person."
So those who lose have veto power over those who won? I don't agree to Bush - yet he is still the president. I feel his policies are a disaster, yet they are still in effect and no-one asks me if I like them or not (apart from during elections).
Democracy is a method for reconciling disputes in governance and deciding what policies to follow and who sets those policies. IT IS NOT A CONSENSUS AND DOES NOT HAVE TO BE ONE.
It is nice if the people who lose elections show some maturity and accept the legitimacy of those who won.
OW...you think its just for a government to have access to a list of signatures that called for a referundum and then use said list to discriminate agaisnt those on the list? Gee what if Bush did that?
Yes its true many governments hire people when the change power etc....but to fire 20,000 people publically is a bit much!
"but to fire 20,000 people publically is a bit much!"
20,000 fired? Who? For What?
Like Chavez did, right? (and I went to vote against CAp and did all (little, I am afraid) I could to get people to vote for others (Causa R then).
Chavez is all the time threatening people and you can't go around that, Ow.
Blood will flow if...
Violence will ensure if...
Those from the slums will come over if you...
Hello? Is that Gandhi talking? Nope, definitely not.
Rather something like Idi Amim Dada.
Ow, what about the ministers who said people should be fired? Among others, the minister of "work".
Watch La Lista (and do not tell me that is not his voice and that was not his image and those were CIA actors).
A of B:
Maria, you hateful bitch....No need for you to talk about my wife, you don't even know her.
All I can say about people like you is that, no matter how much you love Empire and are willing to give your ass in its behalf, Venezuela fortunately knows what it is up against and is certainly willing to defend its democracy. I'm laughing my ass off every time I read the stupid personal insults you and others like you hurl at those who care about Venezuela and its people. No volverán, believe me....
"
I am a middle class American who only expected a level playing field and opportunity. I was taught if I wanted something go the the mirrow and ask that fella. In America unless you are extremely wealthy or extremely poor you are middle class. Middle class values are based on shared values..not income level. In other words America is basically a classless society. Everyone has the opportunity to get theirs by individual effort instead of expecting the government to hand deliver it to them. "
I think your comment makes my point for me. Only an idiotic simpleton who barely knows about anything else but his own country would talk like that. Sorry, John. It's becoming more and more difficult for me to find anything different that this brain-washed bullshit among your compatriots. Keep up the good work!
"America is basically a classless society."
Mwahahahaha!!!
That's just...priceless.
No, but seriously, John. Sweeping generalizations and cultural stereotypes like this:
"Everyone has the opportunity to get theirs by individual effort instead of expecting the government to hand deliver it to them."
hurts your cause. See, armchair sociology of this kind just tells me more about your prejudices and stereotypes than about how other societies (like Venezuelans, for instance)are. Years and years of brainwashing produce the smug attitude evident in your comments. Do yourself a favor and read a little more. There's a whole world out there. With other concerns, other problems and other circumstances. Don't believe you know enough about Venezuelan society because you just spend a couple of weeks there.
By the way...not that it matters, but my wife doesn't want to leave the U.S. (not that we haven't talked about it) because of her parents, whom she loves very much and wants to see on a regular basis. While I don't share her sentiments, I clearly understand her and respect her decision.
"It's getting old especially coming from you guys who compalin about the Empire but have no problem living there."
Actually I do have a problem. It's becoming increasingly difficult for me to "pursue happiness" (isn't that little catch-phrase just adorable?) here. As of late I've felt like I am living in a surreal, alien landscape more akin to a circus thatn a country. But as I said before, I can't leave.
And the point stands. It is an Empire. And it has repeatedly imposed their will on others (either by violence, intimidation and funding of destabilizing activities). That there are some decent Americans live Slave, OW and others that dislike what their government has done and would like to change it is actually a welcome and encouraging situation. Not everything is lost.
One by one, Mr ow.:
"So those who lose have veto power over those who won? I don't agree to Bush - yet he is still the president. I feel his policies are a disaster, yet they are still in effect and no-one asks me if I like them or not (apart from during elections)."
Yes, they have a VETO POWER. It's called their individual rights, they are a VETO to every govt. policy. And I would really sorry for the Americans if they let anyone take their rights away for ANY REASON AT ALL. They should actively disobey the Patriot Act, and force its repeal. They should force a decision on the detainees of Guantanamo, for the same reason.
"Democracy is a method for reconciling disputes in governance and deciding what policies to follow and who sets those policies. IT IS NOT A CONSENSUS AND DOES NOT HAVE TO BE ONE."
Again wrong. IT IS A CONSENSUS. At least on the basics. That consensus has a name, it's called the constitution, and it's most important part is the one about individual rights. It tells the government what it CANNOT DO to its citizens, and what policies it MAY NOT PURSUE. If there is not a consensus, there is conflict...
"It is nice if the people who lose elections show some maturity and accept the legitimacy of those who won."
If the the aforementioned consensus is not there, there is simply no legitimacy, and no peace. People accept that their candidates lose elections in a liberal democracy because they are sure their rights will not be taken away because an election was lost, they will not be singled out for retaliation, and their lives will not be ruined (well, bad laws can ruin your day any day).
"Unlike popular belief among you extreme lefties Bush does NOT spend his time advising the Venezuela Opposition. To say that would imply that he doesn't have a country to manage with its own problems"
Of course he doesn't. He has inherited the whole world. Our entire planet is his playing field to fuck up.
But of course it is not only Bush. 110 years of foreign intervention can be just explained away by Bush. Fortunately, most posters here know it and don't blame just him. I am willing to believe that they know their history more that the typical "liberal" or Democrat, who seems to think that everything their country had done was fine and dandy until Bush arrived.
" In America unless you are extremely wealthy or extremely poor you are middle class. Middle class values are based on shared values..not income level. In other words America is basically a classless society. Everyone has the opportunity to get theirs by individual effort instead of expecting the government to hand deliver it to them."
This is utter bull. He is correct however about a large portion of the population being "middle class." This section of the society is the one that lives well. They don't worry about hunger or work.This section allows for empire. In essence this is the "American Dream."But this is only that,a bloated dream. I wonder what would happen if more populations around the world started to wake up like in Venezuela. What happens to this "middle class" when no one allows itself to be exploited and demands better ways of life?
OW:
So "live free or die", eh? Evidently, neither Venezuelans or Bolivians or Ecuadorians are willing to live "free" (as can be witnessed by their choice of President), ergo, they should die, according to the great State of New Hampshire.
Freedom or death? ummmm, judging by the meaning of freedom according to some U.S. pundits that can be substituted by "Neoliberalism or death" (or the preferred American term "Free-Markets or death") without skipping a beat.
"20,000 fired? Who? For What?"...That my friend is the number of people Chavez kicked out of PDVSA...ok sure they took part in a strike but to my recollection in democracies public employees strike against a government and don't get fired for it.
There's a subtle difference between participating in a strike in order to obtain reivindications and participating in a strike in order to bring down the government, which is what the PDVSA people did. It caused more than $13 billion in losses to the country, plus the PDVSA directors allowed a company with ties to the U.S. Department of Defense to hijack the computers that controlled every aspect of the oil production process. If you ask me, they shouldn't only have been fired, they should be in Prison.
You forgot the modifier 'illegal' when talking about the strike.
Jen you have mentioned Canada in a couple of post. Well in Canada they have back to work legislation. If the goverment orders the workers of an essential industry like the oil industry to go back to work and they don't, yes they do loose their jobs. Its a law. Chavez ordered the workers back to work, and they did not go, so they got fired. Plain and simple.....
The Canadian goverment and the US Gov. has imposed back to work legislation many times and not even for essential industries such as the oil industry. Wasn't it 18 000 workers not 20 000?
" ...ok sure they took part in a strike but to my recollection in democracies public employees strike against a government and don't get fired for it."
Umm ever hear of the air traffic controllers that Reagan fired????
And they were not even involved in a coup... they just wanted more pay.
Or about the dock workers in NYC that were alerted that they would lose their job if they went on strike.
Or the MTA workers in NYC a couple of years ago. I seem to recall something about an arrest warrant for their leader. And a fine.
Hey guys the Aporrea forum is up running and it has a brand new english section so add your voice.
Aporrea Forum :English Section
Al Jazeera discusses media coverage of RCTV story
http://
www.handsoffvenezuela.org...azeera_rctv.htm
"Chavez is all the time threatening people and you can't go around that, Ow."
Kepler, I will certainly admit that Chavez is, to put it politely, not the most diplomatic person at times. Certainly those who oppose him have been subject to verbal abuse.
At the same time, so has Chavez and his supporters. They have been constantly insulted, ridiculed belittled, assualted, etc. Not to mention the attempts to bludgeon them into submission with coups and oil strikes.
So it is a two way street here with TWO guilty parties. Do you have any suggestions on how to change that? And suggestions that take into account the failings and wrongs of your own side?
"Watch La Lista (and do not tell me that is not his voice and that was not his image and those were CIA actors)."
Kepler, post the YouTube link and I'll watch it. I think I've seen it before but I'd need to see it now to comment on it.
"Yes, they have a VETO POWER. It's called their individual rights, they are a VETO to every govt."
Lorenzo, you are confusing policies and rights. I have full rights. I can speak freely, write whatever I want in this blog, travel, organize, etc. However, I cannot change the policies that the elected government chooses and I don't have veto power over them.
Lets take a specific example. I am against the war in Iraq. I also think it is unconstitutional and therefore illegal because the congress never declared war. Yet the war goes on, pursued by the elected government. How can I change that? What veto power do I have over that? None. I can criticize it, try to persuade others that it is wrong, protest against it, and vote for other people in elections. But in the interim I have to accept that the government has this as its policy regardless of whether or not I like it.
That is the same situation in Venezuela and the opposition should have the maturity to accept it.
"IT IS A CONSENSUS. At least on the basics. That consensus has a name, it's called the constitution, and it's most important part is the one about individual rights. It tells the government what it CANNOT DO to its citizens, and what policies it MAY NOT PURSUE. If there is not a consensus, there is conflict..."
And what is supposed to create this consunses? Can I say I am not in agreement with the U.S. constitution and therefore ignore it.?
I don't think individual groups of people can opt out of accepting the government they live under just because that government, elected by their fellow citizens, pursues policies they don't like.
"If the the aforementioned consensus is not there, there is simply no legitimacy, and no peace. People accept that their candidates lose elections in a liberal democracy because they are sure their rights will not be taken away because an election was lost, they will not be singled out for retaliation, and their lives will not be ruined (well, bad laws can ruin your day any day)."
I think it is something different. In the U.S. and most Western European countries there isn't much difference between teh major parties competing for power. Hence, no one gets too upset when one wins as opposed to another as they follow the same basic policies.
In Venezuela we now have a competition between two radically different conceptions of how society should be organized. THere is nothing wrong with that, but it is those dramatic differences in political beliefs that has, for example, caused the opposition to refuse to respect the legitimacy of the government, not any violation of rights.
After all, lets remember how things happened. Go back to 2002 - what rights had been violated? What had been done to the opposition? Yet they resorted to a coup attempt to get Chavez out and later to an oil strike to try to get him out. Why were they so desperate to remove him? BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T AGREE WITH HIS POLICIES.
"That my friend is the number of people Chavez kicked out of PDVSA...ok sure they took part in a strike but to my recollection in democracies public employees strike against a government and don't get fired for it."
Jen, not strikes led by the management and top executives of the company who have as their demand the resignation of the president of the country!!!!! They got fired, legimately, because they tried to overthrow the government in an illegal strike, they were ordered back to work by the courts, and they refused. So that is that.
"Hey guys the Aporrea forum is up running and it has a brand new english section so add your voice.
Aporrea Forum :English Section"
I just had a look. That is awesome.
That is the proper response to the hacker attack on Aporrea - bring it back better than ever!
The subject was about how Chavez is bringing hyper democracy to Venezuela. As usual a lot of you got off topic. My point is Chavez is promoting his cult..it has nothing to do with democracy. Today was a good example.
I watched the US Open on ESPN on Direct TV . There was an ad from Gobieno Bolivarariano de Venezuela/PDVSA. It showed a refinery and Chavez giving Evo Morales a hug.
Another ad was from the Dominican Republic. It showed Jack Nicklaus at a real nice golf course along the sea shore.
It is very clear to me Chavez is promoting his cult agenda and the Dominican Republic is looking for tourist dollars. Show me the Grand Sabana, Angle Falls, a fisherman at Los Roques...don't show me a refinery.
Also, Chavez is serving boxed lunches to school children. The red boxes have a picture of Chavez with the slogan..."Con Chavez un solo gobierno"...with Chavez just one government.
He is brainwashing the school children.
Folks, it is all about the Cult of Chavez.
ow,
Where is your analysis on the oil industry you promised? Still waiting...
"A of B:
Maria, you hateful bitch....No need for you to talk about my wife, you don't even know her."
Onl somebody with shit-for-brains will marry a hypocrite like you and and idiot to boot.
"By the way...not that it matters, but my wife doesn't want to leave the U.S. (not that we haven't talked about it) because of her parents, whom she loves very much and wants to see on a regular basis. While I don't share her sentiments, I clearly understand her and respect her decision."
What a load of crap. She can move to Venezuela and make herself known as a chavista jalabolas and she could travel to the US on a weekly basis to see her parents, a la Golinger style.
You and your stupid wife are both hypocritical parasites and will never move. Moreover, you will make sure that your kids are born here and be citizens. Hopefully, Natural Selection will prevail and the stupid gene will die with you and you shit-for-brains wife.
Onl=Only
you wife =your wife
Hahaha, I love it. These morons are as dumb as the Texas red necks that put bumper stickers on their 4x4 pickups with the gun rack and the confederate flag in the back window. The sticker says "Love it or leave it."
This is the same philosophy of the brilliant anti-Chavez philosophers here who are telling OW that if he hates the U.S. so much and loves Venezuela that he should just move there!!!
Hahaha, yeah, there's no need to keep working for change in the United States! Just get out if you don't like it! That's productive!
And just because you support a country's democratic right to choose their own president (which the opposition doesn't support), well then that means you should just move there!
So anyone who supports Venezuela from other countries should just move there!!! Hahahaha! These guys are really brilliant OW. Pretty profound ideas, I'm not sure we can match them!
And John, what an incredibly profound analysis you have made here. The U.S. has a higher standard of living, has a bigger middle class, people have more mobility, more opportunities. Yeah, that's all true. So that therefore means that the U.S. is the example for the world? So that therefore means that that system is the MODEL FOR THE WORLD!!!
What you have forgotten my world-systems-analyst friend, in your brilliant and deep analysis, is that the United States was never colonized and exploited for its resources, was not conquered by brutal conquistadores who simply sought to take out everything valuable from the country, raping and enslaving the indigenous people and basing the society on slave labor (except in southern states which are still poor to this day). Instead, the U.S. was settled by people who sought to build a society, not destroy one. By people who brought their families, and intended to live there.
What developed there is a society that produces, that became independent of imports, broke free from mercantilism, from colonialism, and managed to build capitalist industry on a never ending line of exploited immigrant laber (that continues until today).
But, what is MOST lacking in your amazing interpretation of the modern world is this: OF COURSE THE UNITED STATES HAS MORE OPPORTUNITIES, MORE MOBILITY, A LARGER MIDDLE CLASS.......IT IS THE CENTER OF THE WORLD ECONOMY!!!!
THE COST OF THIS SYSTEM IS THAT THE PERIPHERY OF THE WORLD (continent of Africa, Latin America, most of Asia) live excluded from this world economy dominated by the developed economies that work on a daily basis to prevent competition from raising its head.
So, yeah, real easy to criticize Venezuela up next to the United States. You are just forgetting one little thing smart guy: 500 YEARS OF HISTORY.
"You and your stupid wife are both hypocritical parasites and will never move. Moreover, you will make sure that your kids are born here and be citizens. Hopefully, Natural Selection will prevail and the stupid gene will die with you and you shit-for-brains wife."
Yeah, OW, this proves it. This proves everything. A of B has put the nail in the coffin. The fact that you still live in the United States, well that means that you secretly know that the United States is a better system than Venezuela. That means that deep down you are lying, and that you know Venezuela is a bad, bad country that could never stand up to the standards of, say, Miami.
HAHAHAHAHA! Seriously, you know you've got a really brainiac when the argument comes down to this.
A of B = freedom fighter philosopher (who occasionally loses his senses and attacks his opponent's wife because of where she lives)
"Yeah, OW, this proves it. This proves everything. A of B has put the nail in the coffin. The fact that you still live in the United States, well that means that you secretly know that the United States is a better system than Venezuela. "
I thought that was directed at someone else but it could apply to me.
Following that logic I am waiting for Jen, Duquenal, Octavio and all the others to leave Venezuela. Could it be that things are just too good for them under Chavez for them to leave.
Also, A & B is an ardent supporter of the Iraq war. Given her feelings that you have to act on your beleives in this way I'm disppointed she is not yet over their joining the fight to save humanity (or at least Halliburton).
"Following that logic I am waiting for Jen, Duquenal, Octavio and all the others to leave Venezuela. Could it be that things are just too good for them under Chavez for them to leave."
Nah OW my Husband 's parents are here...I have the same reasons as SR for not moving anywhere...I'll tough it out.
I'm honoured though that you saw it fit to put me in the list with such great bloggers...Thanks OW!
I don't know about "great bloggers" but if it makes your day... 
I suspect that Jen and her husband are well known 'swingers' in and around the Caracas area. This is only a hunch mind you. But the Slave's usually pretty good about these things (a sensibility aquired from his former debaucherous life-style 
)
AS is usual with extreme hedonists, they are pretty selfish, not well read, and usually consort with the others that share their selfish, unsophisticated ideology.
There were alot of fellow swingers among the PDVSA employees that were fired from their jobs.
These former employees were among the most parasitic humans on the planet. So engrossed in their narcissitic, silicon-enhanced mirror images of themselves they were that they actually thought that the oil strike would bring the country to their its knees, and that this pro=US group engaged in traitorous behavior, thinking that the majority of Venezuleans was on the same page.
Sorry Jen, this group of loosers got what was coming to them. They were terminated.
You might not be pro-Bush, Jen--but it is a fact that you are pro-empire and support the global capitalist order.
News for you Jen, times they are a changen.
Eventually, even with all the viagra, botox, plastic surgery, other swingers will meet in lugubrious environs without inviting you.
But, hey, enjoy the moment while you can.
Greed is a killer, Jen. Get out of your narcissistic little echo chamber, develop a sense of ethics and your critical thinking skills; study a bit of the history that the masters of capitalism try to hide.
If that is too much for you, you can always revert to religion 
SR, how come you haven't signed up for the Aporrea english forum yet? What are you waiting for
Ahhh...oppo supporters. Furious, fanatical little shits that want to see the U.S. empire subjugate the whole world. It's just funny. I know Maria (A of B, or whatever her name is) is foaming at the mouth because her beloved Empire can't get its way in Venezuela. I'm still wondering how a person can be so unbelievable inhumane as to want their group spread its violent, self-righteous and ethnocentric approach to international relations all around the planet. In the name of democracy (their limited, aristocratic perception of democracy) the U.S. wants to create a global dictatorship in which its government decides what's good for everybody else and enforces its dictates though violence, all the while denouncing dictatorships in other countries. People like A of B love this approach. It warms her fascist little heart to think about the American troops marching through the places they destroy, handing out candy after turning a place to rubbish while wondering why they are so hated. Makes her feel warm and fuzzy inside.
Ahh, these facist oppos...you prod them a little and all the shit will come out, overflowing...
Pepito, and you will note that they project onto Chavez and Venezuelan foriegn policy exactly what they are guilty of: invasion, undemocratic practices, etc.
Any cursory look at present and past US actions would disabuse them of such delusions.
But they cannot look at the truth--they have to filter their information through the fairy-tales of the world's pro-captialist press (which includes BBC, NPR, and Canada's public and private media). Given what is going on with the illegal attack on Iraq and the planned decades-long occupation of that country, anyone that is not speaking out against this vociferously....well, let's just say that their support for imperial terror makes their long-winded rants about Venezuela look a little bit suspect.s
At the core of this hypocrisy is class and first world neocolonial priviledge.
People like Jen project onto Venezuelans her own laziness and parasitical behavior. It is the empire and its lackies (especially Canada) that want something for (literally) nothing.
US people project their own hypocritical boot-strap delusions onto the nations they they have historically extracted wealth from. Pretty damn good scam--especially when you have a pro-capitalist global media that reinforces this necrophilic/parasitic delusion onto the empire's myriad victims.
And it helps to work with compradors in each of these nations so as to smooth out the rough edges of this perverted ideology.
Somehow, Latin Americans are starting to chaf at this logic.
But we can depend on people like Jen to explain away this craven, twisted capitalist ideology in the context of South America. These brown people are not exploited!--their just lazy, they want something for nothing, etc.
In-fucking-credible. And the Slave's seen almost everything--but they continue to astound and wake the Slave from his occasional slumber.
OW, maybe I'll check it out. However, given my work-load (I am living under 'crapitalism' afterall), I have limited time to spend engaged in blog debates.
It is quite enjoyable, however, to read the comments on blogs where authetic debate is allowed to flourish.
Interestingly, all the really pro-capitalist blogs pertaining to Venezuela either severely censor dissident comments, or they simply erase such comments. They demand ideological conformity because they know that their argument for inequality and captitalist domination is really weak.
As I said previously--plutocrats and their imperialist lackies project onto authentic democratic movements their own will to dominate, exclude, and oppress.
The fact that the US politicos can even mention 'democracy' without being laughted at or booed is a testament to the power of compradors and the blatant propaganda function of media in capitalist societies.
But, indeed, I will pop over to the aporrea forum and look at the various comments. It should be fun to see Quico and Daniel engage debate using various disguises.
Once in a while, it would be nice to see someone like slave tell them to their face that they are smoke'in crack.
OW: I am amazed at your explanation for the need of the Tascon list. The purpose of this list was simply to discriminate against Chavez foes since it was setup after the recall referendum. You are a very dishonest person, justifying the unjustifiable. I am just wondering what your analyses are really worth.
Ow or Anyone,
If the incumbent chavista or oppo candidate is recalled, will the electorate be offered a way to democratically decide within their respective parties if that candidate should run again representing their side? Will, for instance, Bernal easily end up running again without internal opposition from oficialismo, if he were to be recalled?
Who knows what the oppos will do, splinter, boycott or unite, they still could find themselves losing against a shit candidate, which is why, in my opinion, there must be a type of primary with oficialismo if their parties' member is recalled. Don't you think?
"The purpose of this list was simply to discriminate against Chavez foes since it was setup after the recall referendum"
Absolutley false, the "Tascon" list was a site on Tascon's web page where you could put your cedula number and check if you were listed as haivng signed. It was done BEFORE the Refirmazo.
This is a fact based blog so get you facts right.
"If the incumbent chavista or oppo candidate is recalled, will the electorate be offered a way to democratically decide within their respective parties if that candidate should run again representing their side? Will, for instance, Bernal easily end up running again without internal opposition from oficialismo, if he were to be recalled? "
Nick you've hit upon a big problem which I have posted on before - the lack of internal democracy via primaries of political parties in Venezuela including amongst the pro-Chavez ones. It is a big problem and the answer to your question is it is unlikely that Bernal would be subjected to a primary.
Democracy in the UK
http://www.respectcoalition.org/...ex.php?
ite=1330
You are either lying, in which case your postings don't hold much water or are misinformed in which case your postings don't hold much water either. My reaction is not intellectual but comes from the gut as a few of people close to me have been hit pretty hard by this facist list. I am talking from direct experience and not from "a fact based blog" as your arrogance implies.
Escualido, maybe your friends and family that are denied governemnt jobs supported the coup and the attempted oil sabatoge coup. If that is the case they should be denied government employment.
Why should the Venezuelan government employ people that cheer US imperial belligerence and the Carmona coup? They shouldn't.
Let your beloved 'private sector' employee these kindred spirits. Oh--they are too busy taking the profits they earned in Venezuela to invest in China. The hypocrisy is thick and putrid.
Slave revolt: Nothing of the sort my friend, nothing of the sort, just common people who signed for the revocatorio, nothing more. You believe everybody who do not agree with the autocrat is an oligarch. Brainwashing still holds the upper hand.
Escualdio, I am inclined to believe that the people that cheered as Carmona imprisoned Chavez, and as his stoodge abolished the Supreme Court and the Parliment--I am inclined to see these Venezuelans as true, undemocratic traitors.
Especially repugnent are those that go begging the criminal empire to intervene--which they are doing via the CIA now, and have done continuously.
Yes, a majority of the opposition taht supported the coup are traitors, servants of the empire and its neocolonial goals in Latin American and around the world.
No, if your friends are as anti-democratic and distainful of democarcy as you seem to be, then they should not be trusted with jobs in the government.
I believe that anyone that sees as illegitimate the right of the Chavez governement to deny RCTV a continued concession is 'brainwashed' by oligarchic, corporate propaganda.
Such 'brainwashed' servants of oligarchy should not be trusted in sensative positions in the government. Period.
The Venezuelan rightwing have acted as traitors. Now, in order to win at the ballot box, they have to be willing to change their worldview, and thus their consistent behavior.
Massaging the balls of Uncle Sammie and becoming giddy at the prospect of a US-led invasion, or the assasination of Chavez--well, that is the type of behavior that the majority of Venezuelans, rightly, see as being diseased.
Unfortunately, the pro-captialist/US Venezuelan rightwing seems incapable of adjusting to the new reality of a more democratic Venezulea.
By the way, Escualido, if you have evidence that Chavez' government has denied government jobs to people for the sole reason that they signed the petition that was necessary to bring forward the RR, then let's see this evidence. Let's hear these people's stories, know who they are, etc.
In other words, evidence. Bring us documented evidence.
Indeed, some 'common people' were fooled by the corporate propaganda so as to align themselves with the oligarchs and US stoodges. That is their freedom, their choice. But don't expect the government to trust their judgement in the area of employement.
If you want unfettered capitalism then throw yourself at the feet of Uncle Sammie. We see how he treats his brothers and sisters to the South.
Slave Revolt: We talk two different subjects, I the Tascon list, you the April coup, the oligarchs, the paro petrolero, the Empire, colonialism, the CIA, the rightwing conspiracy, Chavez assasination and RCTV. What a confused (brainwashed?) mind. I will leave you the last word. So long.
You can listen to George Galloway here.
http://www.talk107.co.uk/present...hp?
presenter=26
"These orchestrated attacks on Chávez are a travesty"
"A social revolution is taking place in Venezuela. No wonder the neocons and their friends are determined to discredit it"
George Galloway
Wednesday February 28, 2007
http://www.spiderednews.com/
"You are either lying"
Lying about what? That the Tascon list came BEFORE the recall referendum and was a way for people to get fruadulent signatures made on their behalf off the recall petitions? Sorry, that is a fact. And yeah, facts are pretty arrogant.
At the risk of sounding like an extremist I would like to congratulate any Venezuelan agency or department human resources officer or head who keeps supporters of the coup and oil strike/lockout/sabotage and whiners and liars who are seeking foreign intervention against their own country out of and far away from any sensitive position, far from where they can ever do any harm again.
"
I am a middle class American who only expected a level playing field and opportunity. I was taught if I wanted something go the the mirrow and ask that fella. In America unless you are extremely wealthy or extremely poor you are middle class. Middle class values are based on shared values..not income level. In other words America is basically a classless society. Everyone has the opportunity to get theirs by individual effort instead of expecting the government to hand deliver it to them. "
Pepito, my friend you are wrong. This is spoken like someone who doesn't have a clue about his own country, let alone about Venezuela.
Eugene W., that quote was Pepito taking issue with something that a brainwashed imperialist robot said above.
Pepito sees clearly the contradictions of contemporary consumerist societies that continue to be rife with class domination and unequal access to opprotunities. The 'competition' is pretty stacked inl favor of entrenched and inherited wealth.
Only a goof and a doof wouldln't recognize that the lack of social mobility and opprotunity leads to a sitution where the poor stay poor (and, indeed, become poorer with pressure from US-lead neocon globalization, gutting social programs, etc.)
Yes I know. I was commenting because Pepito said that it is the remark of someone who only knows his own country. That is not true. It is the remark of someone who doesn't even know his own country. No offense to Pepito who I called friend.
"We were discussing with other oppos: who are you guys? And we found a pattern everywhere. You are in the world a tiny minority, you are the extreme left. You make up less than 3 per cent in the electorate of any Western nation."
Earth to Kepler-
The Organization of American States says Venezuela is a democracy. There is no problem that Venezuela sits on the Inter American Court of Human Rights. Perhaps in days past the OAS would have rushed to pass whatever resolution Ms. Rice required and followed with an offer of troops. Those days appear to be over.
Ow:
And you can disobey the laws you consider unjust. If you get enough people to disobey them, the government is powerless.
There is civil disobedience. It's absolutely legitimate, and it's simply not acknowledging unjust laws and policies.
If individual rights (or their free exercise) are not an instant check on goverment policies, then you are in serious trouble. Because there is no limit to majority rule.
Being elected is just a mandate to occupy a particular post, not a letter of marquee for everything that will come to your head after you take charge.
Bush or Chavez, they should not get away with policies they did not get a consent for, or worse, that are in violation of the constitution of their country.
SR...How dare you insult me or my family. You call A&B a hateful bitch for saying what she said about your wife but you turn around and add something hateful about me and my husband..." I suspect that Jen and her husband are well known 'swingers' in and around the Caracas area. "
FUCK YOU!!!! Next time stay on topic.
"the "Tascon" list was a site on Tascon's web page where you could put your cedula number and check if you were listed as haivng signed. It was done BEFORE the Refirmazo."
More facts. Covering for Tascon makes you an enabler.
"In February 2004, during the TV program Aló Presidente No 180[1], President Chávez announced that he had signed a document requesting the National Electoral Council (CNE) to provide copies of signatures of petitioners for the Recall Referendum. [2] Luis Tascón, as the representative of the Comando Maisanta, was in charge of collecting the copies of the signatures, to prove Chávez's suspicion of fraud. [3] [4]
Weeks later, Tascón published on his website a database, based on the list provided by the National Electoral Council, of over 2,400,000 signers of the constitutional petition for a recall referendum against Chávez, including their national identity numbers (cédula). "
...the "Tascón List must be archived and buried" and continued, "I say that, because I keep receiving some letters, among the many I get, that make me think that, in some places, they still have the Tascón List on their tables to determine if somebody is going to work or not". That is Chavez himself. All the evidence you need.
Chavez makes it perfectly clear that those who oppose him will be discriminated against when it comes to government jobs and social programs. That is part of his political strategy of intimidation.
OW, you can sit there and argue all you want about the ORIGINAL purpose of Tascon's List, but there is no question about how it ended up being used. As JSB pointed out above, even Chavez himself admitted that it was used to discriminate against opponents. Of course Chavez tries to pass it off as something he never supported, but that is pretty absurd. Chavez tried intimidating the referendum supporters during the signature collection by making it clear that the government would maintain a record of those names.
The world isn't black and white buddy. You support Chavez's social programs all you want (although I think your picking and choosing of statistics is a bit naive), but that doesn't mean that everything he does is great. Tascon's list was real. As a result, the opportunity to use a referendum to recall a chavista loyalist or enull an enabling law decree is simply nonexistent. No one is going to sign those petitions.
And then of course there is the packed Supreme Court--not really a great feature for a "flourishing democracy."
In case you are interested, the International Bar Association has released an extensive report on the state of the judiciary in Venezuela. Here's a link to the summary:
http://www.ibanet.org/images/dow...nal-
English.pdf
"Chavez makes it perfectly clear that those who oppose him will be discriminated against when it comes to government jobs and social programs."
Absolutely not true, that is an assertion constantly made by his opponents but not backed up with actual evidence.
"but there is no question about how it ended up being used. "
Yes, it was used to weed out faked signatures. Sounds perfectly legit to me. They also used it for their get out the vote database. Also a legitimate use.
"As JSB pointed out above, even Chavez himself admitted that it was used to discriminate against opponents. Of course Chavez tries to pass it off as something he never supported, but that is pretty absurd."
So what. Bush would admit there is racism and discrimination in the US - that doesn't mean it is government sponsored. Same here. Some overzealus Chavistas may have used this information inproperly. Chavez told them to stop. Sounds good to me. And it also falsely contradicts your first statement that Chavez WANTS their to be discrimination - if he did he wouldn't be telling people to stop.
"Chavez tried intimidating the referendum supporters during the signature collection by making it clear that the government would maintain a record of those names."
Chavez never did anything of the sort. He had every right to make sure the signatures were legitmate. And he further had the right to criticize people who signed against him.
"but that doesn't mean that everything he does is great"
Never said it was. He crime policies, education policies, export industry development policies leave a lot to be desired. But when the opposition fixates on fabricated non-events like supposed political discrimination they just destroy their own credibility.
"As a result, the opportunity to use a referendum to recall a chavista loyalist or enull an enabling law decree is simply nonexistent."
Lets get real here. Not many people are going to work to recall a pro-Chavez elected official because pro-Chavez elected officials are pretty damn popular right now.
Though when the AN come up to its mid-point I suspect there will be lots of recalls because there are Chavistas representing strong opposition districts due to the boycott.
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