Nice comments and context OW.
By the way, I have only found one Venezuelan opposition blog--from a young woman student--that actually mentions the fact that rightwing students sought to burn the social work building with people inside. As is logical--the social work section of that university leans quite a bit further to the left than other departments.
She is opposition--but at least she is honest.
Indeed, nice and timely post bro.
My thoughts go to this young man's family. The guy was young, and he was striving for honorable employment. This simply sucks. The forces of reaction at work.
None of the rightwing oppo bloggers saw fit to mention this death leading up to the coming reform vote.
Nuevo Herald did mention this--but without the type of caption that would have been deployed had this been Chavista-on-oppo violence. Typical. As I mentioned on the previous thread, if this had been a light-skinned, yuppie university student his picture would be plastered all over the international media. The hypocrisy and the classism is glaring, and deep rooted even among those leaning to the left of the political spectrum.
When I read this news yesterday I was dejected. Of course we will not be able to prove it--but one wonders how much US effort is behind these attempts to destablize.
there are as many dark skinned workers on both sides...that was an amazing racist statement ...99% of the people in Ven are dark skinned...and this has nothing to do with it, but I am sure readers will see through that one...we have seen through it in other climes.Call the race card when you have nothing on your side.Chavez has an arms factory and thugs from Cuba, and the prison population he let loose on his side and has stated clearly he will go to any length to stay in power..ven students will have to defend themselves or loose their country...but all of you pretty much can guess the rest.Another slimy dictator, only this one is worse because he steals oil money, gets fat, and then lets his populace get poorer and poorer...
firepig5 - go and troll somewhere else. The fact you ignore the main point of OW's post indicates to me that you condone killing government supporters.
How can CVhavez be a "slimy dictator" when he won the vote last year with 63.1% in elections oiverseen by international observers? Your logic defeats me or maybe you are just another disociated opposition doof.
Firepig, simply note that the upper classes are lighter-skinned. This is a fact from the history of colonialism and deep classism. Not to say that the situation is not nuanced.
Anon--were you banned from Quico's blog?
His comments sections has become an echo chamber.
As usual, he is convinced that 'this time' the oppos will win. Funny how with all his money he doesn't vote--or maybe he does from Europe.
How did he win? Using false cedulas, rigging machines, intimidating people , threatening to fire them from jobs, and not hand out passports to leave the country...the way he " wins" is only obvious to those who live in the country or have lived there a long time and speak the language...
Sorry, you do not qualify here.
It is true that in the past most upper classes were lighter skinned...because the Spanish had more money than the Indians...Europeans started out with more money in the America's in general, but that was the past, and more and more dark skinned people are making the money in Venezuela as well..it takes time for humans to evolve...
My in law family is criollo( a mix of white , indian and black), and the children in this family have all done well with some exceptions.But the exceptions have been because of laziness, alcoholism and not race....Venezuela has always been a loving country towards all races, until Chavez.Now Venezuela is going backwards...
why do new trolls only come and repeat the long since debunked non-sense the old trolls used to say?
Can't we get some originality here?
Firepig, put down the crack-pipe, please.
Just look at the hue of the skin in photos of people from East Caracas protesting and the folks from the popular neighborhoods.
The European colonizers had more money?!
Gee, neat how that works. Those white folks think of everything. 
As far as your charges of voter fraud--the 'we woz robbed' excuse--please, you have to bring to the forefront evidence that Chavez is less popular than the rightwing oppos, and that he committed fraud in his record of almost ten voting cycles.
Calm down Fpig--be like the Budda and chill.
The only way to stop the fractal is with a NO win. Anything else, it is going to be the begining of a civil war.
Bruni | Homepage | 11.27.07 - 9:52 am | #
_________________________________
This is typical of the mentality of dreamers and wishul thinkers over at CC.
Bruni - pull your head out of your ***
For a complete analysis of how the opposition is organized watch this amazing piece of research from Mario Silva. Watch it all the way through and don't tell me that there is not a conspiracy.
http://www.aporrea.org/oposicion...on/
n105368.html
I know Chavez is crumbling and the No vote is winning.
Like I said Slave, I am a mirror, SO when you see un- original, you are looking at yourself 
If you knew about Buddhism you would Know about the energy of the wrathful deities....I never said I was ZEN ...KEEP SHOWING YOUR IGNORANCE...IT';'S GOOD, IT'S GOOD
firepig5 zzzzzzzzz........
"I know Chavez is crumbling and the No vote is winning."
Not at all. Chavez is still at over 60% support in the polls. The NO may win, but that is just because Chavez voters are thinking voters and some have serious doubts about some of the reforms.
The opposition would not be out blocking streets and inciting violence if they could defeat the referendum at the polls as they claim.
This is about setting an atmosphere before the event and they are being helped.
Look the US loves to destabilize gov’t they do not like, that’s just a fact.
And destabilizing a country needs a trigger event, and this referendum is the last trigger event for a while to come.
All the press coverage lately, Brownfield going to Columbia, and especially these last Uribe comments, all just days before this vote, is setting an atmosphere.
I hope I am wrong, but I fear the people of Venezuela need to be ready to defend their country and democracy from an assault more serious than the 2002 coup.
Stand Strong Venezuela!
Ron, what concerns me the most is assasination--if this happens with moves on the part of anti-chavez generals, and US miliarty support, this could get pretty ugly.
The US would step in to 'protect its interests'.
I am not saying that this is likely to happen--but these are craven, racist/classist fanatics for imperial rule we are dealing with--not staid Euro social democrats (that merely ride the coattails of US state terrorism).
Snuffing out the lives of tens of thousands of Iraqi children doesn't cause concern among the US political establishment--not in the least.
These are the same fanatics that celebrate wiping out the indigenous people of the Americas. At least the Germans developed a sense of reflection and shame for their part in genocidal atrocities.
Imagine if a German football team called themselves the "kikes"--you get a picture of the level of barbarism that Cuba and Venezuela--among others--have to suffer.
Hell, they build shopping malls over the burial grounds of the people they murder en mass. Sick shit.
The real thugs are hidden within the confines of the US Embassy at Caracas. You guys should read the CIA cionfidential report (Operación Tenazas) just published by aporrea.org. Have to run. We have a referendum to win!
Moyhabin, I've already read it bro (and by the way, where the f... have you been? I thought the 'garchs gotcha ).
My reaction is that this document is part of Venezuelan black ops--a manufactured document on the part of Venezuelan intelligence.
But then I remembered the type of fanaticism that gives impetus to the empire's actions--so, no, I cannot rule out that they are mercenary enough to engage this type of shit. However, would they be stupid enough to allow this type of communication to reach Chavez' hands?
With this neocon crew, anything is possible.
Hi SR,
If the opposition assassinated Chavez it would be a crime and tragedy. But I don't think it would be ultimately good for the oppositionist cause. A few years ago I would have agreed that assassinating Chavez would finish the revoltion. But not anymore.
Assassinating Chavez would cause anger among the people the likes of which the continent has not seen for many years. There would be a bloodbath and a civil war. And since the Chavista side has more people, a higher birthrate, more deeply and desperately held beliefs, and control over the military, we would almost certainly win a civil war if it ever broke out.
Assassinating Chavez would be the most dastardly act the opposition has committed thus far, but it would also be the last.
The Chavista side will ultimately win, whether by the ballot or by the bullet. Preferably by the ballot, but if the oppositionists insist on shooting young Chavista men, then by the bullet it shall be.
"These reports and the Forbes 400 provide us with a damning portrait of a capitalist system in which the majority of the world’s population is exploited by an increasingly criminal elite. As more and more wealth is concentrated with alarming speed and with more predatory methods into the hands of the smallest minority, the living conditions of poor and working class people throughout the world are driven further and further into the ground. The eventual destruction of such a system as this is as unavoidable as it is necessary"...
http://tinyurl.com/2mggev
Hector, I agree, generally, but the empire and the oligarchs are fanatical, inclined toward terrorism, and desparate--they don't make good decisions and they hate the masses.
Be prepared for the worst. All I am saying is that this is possibility that the Venezuelan people must be prepared for.
Just because one oppositor has commited a violent act, does not mean that all opositors to Hugo Chávez are violent, fanatical terrorists.
Venezuela is a violent country. A president who persistently shows extraordinaliry bad manners on international conference and who does everything to polarize society isn't precicely what I would call a factor to improve the style of internal disputes to a more peacefull style.
OW I have to say that I really appreciate your open space. That Quico character deleted the below 3 F'ing times! Good post by the way.
My comments were deleted above. I posted at the top after Lucia and this is what I wrote:
My crystal ball says that all hell would probably break loose with a Sí victory. I may be wrong, but I just don't see it playing out any other way. Your thoughts?
I say that your crystal ball has alot of wishful thinking within it. The opposition have been saying this since 1998.I predict that the Sí will win by 60%-61%.But this won't dissuade the extremist elements in the opposition(the "en contra" no matter what).The extreme and "moderate" opposition will scream fraud along with all the opposition aligned media(still the majority by the way). These elements will stirr up trouble before, during and after the vote.While the moderates will justify such actions as the result of a committed "fraud." Mark my words. If I am wrong then I will gladly admit it.
I wonder, too, if after a Sí victory we'll see nearly immediate punishment of Baduel and Podemos.
No that won't happen. They dig their own political graves.It is a permanent given that the international media will always be against his government and the Bolivarian movemement as a whole.So if he were to just pull one hair from their heads this permanent international opposition media would be screaming about the "Chavez gulags." Just more wishful thinking from a desperate opposotin without a conrete alternative program for the people.
Aliva | 11.27.07 - 12:23 pm | #
OW:
BBC Mundo is saying that there was a clash between police and protestors and that the 19 year-old kid that died was caught in the middle. They're reporting that it is not know who shot him.
Un-fucking-believable!!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/spanish...000/
7114310.stm
"Un hombre murió durante una manifestación contra la propuesta gubernamental de reforma constitucional en Venezuela, que será sometida a referendo el domingo próximo.
El hombre murió al quedar en medio de un enfrentamiento entre la policía y manifestantes en Guacara, a las afueras de la ciudad de Valencia.
No hay claridad sobre quién efectuó el disparo que le causo la muerte.
"
Aliva, it is in the 'garch's (ie 'oligarch's') ideological DNA to censor and lie, to not allow the free flow of ideas.
They want the same type of echo chamber and ideological conformity that exists in the corporate media. They know no other way.
Notice how, like clockwork, Quico, Daniel, and Miguel all convince themselves that their side is going to win in the last week before the elections.
You can set your calender by this oligarch delusion. Incredible.
"Just because one oppositor has commited a violent act, does not mean that all opositors to Hugo Chávez are violent, fanatical terrorists"
Of course not. Nor are Chavistas bad because they have a few bad apples. But it is interesting how one is noted by the press and the other not.
"A president who persistently shows extraordinaliry bad manners on international conference and who does everything to polarize society isn't precicely what I would call a factor to improve the style of internal disputes to a more peacefull style."
Chavez does occasionally have bad manners. But those who oppose him are generally far worse.
Pepito, believe it. We have been watching this shit play out similarly for over five years now. It is unusual when it plays out differently--the the corporate media try to engage nuance and depth.
Pepito,
Yeah, that is unreal and slanderous. What assholes. They could listen to the audio I linked to and they would know what happened.
But I guess that is beyond them.
SR,
You must get today's Wall Street Journal and read the front page article. You'll know what one when you see it.
OW, sorry, it ain't going to happen. I've been swamped in the office. F' I hate office work!
I am like Eugene, Slave needs to be out in the streets! (Or, according to Quico, in jail )
Please, do fill me in...what is up with WSJ's front page? Does it have to do with ecological issues?
Don't play Slave like that. Here, you have to travel a half an hour to get the real quality corporate propaganda. They don't sell NYT or WSJ at Walmart OW. 
This is happening in the other oil rich country in which the US would like to see regime change.
<
Iran accuses Washington of backing the group, and while the US denies this, local and foreign intelligence sources say the accusation is most likely true. According to a former US Special Forces (SF) commando currently based in Iraq who spoke on condition of anonymity, Special Forces troops are currently operating inside Iran, working with insurgent forces like the PJAK. "That's what the SF does," he said. "They train and build up indigenous anti-government forces."
"The primary function of the Special Forces is to stand up guerrilla forces or counter-guerrilla forces," said another former SF soldier, retired Major Mark Smith.
>
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Mid...t/
IK28Ak01.html
Did everyone just love how Slave Revolt, from his enclave in Florida, informed Firepig what color Venezuelans were?
"OW I have to say that I really appreciate your open space. That Quico character deleted the below 3 F'ing times! "
It never ceases to amaze me how disenfranchised some people are. Look at this kid "running back" to Dad to tell on CC. Butch up or open your own blog Aliva.
SR, you are one lazy bum. What happened to your plan of planting trees? Too much work or got fired by some tree huggers for being too radical?
The grac is back.
"The grac is back"
The grac is backward
Graciela, I presume your stock is doing well again? Taking a break from all that grueling day trading?
"Does it have to do with ecological issues?"
Yes. I'll post on it later.
The grac is on crack
in the back
of the pack
He don't do
scooby snack
Yes, the grac is on crack
he won't go, to Iraq
he's a wack,
all he does '
is talk smack
Golden Toy, I told you before, I am from Belarus. Slave makes his money from milk.
That's all you need to know. Now stop stalking Slave. If you come near me I will put you on the oligarch plow.
But, I have to ask: why did you steal your cyber name from a third-rate gay porn video.
Slave just had to ask....
Graciela, I presume your stock is doing well again? Taking a break from all that grueling day trading?
Aliva
Thats what grac wants us to believe he/she has been spending time here...
http://tinyurl.com/34zj6j
after reading you first post back grac you should ask for a refund the treatment clearly hasn't worked.
I find the whole thing strange. At this moment, the last thing the NO side needs is problems in the streets.
I find the rethoric of both Chavez and Jorge Rodríguez particularly incendiary.
IMHO the goverment is the one that gains more with the killing of the young man and with guarimba actions at this moment. They need to stir an anti-opposition sentiment on the undecided chavista voters.
How do we know that the whole thing was not planned by the goverment?
We know that they are now using the result...how do we know that they were not behind that to start with?
Bruni:
Wouldn't your logic have applied every bit as well two weeks ago when the SI appeared to be winning and violence all of the sudden broke out at the UCV?
I think there are hotheads out there, on both sides. So I don't hold the opposition as a group responsible for this. But the non-coverage by the media is pretty bad.
Brunis, yes this seems strange to you, but if you want to claim that this group of tire-burning protesters blocking the street were paid by Chavez to kill a Chavez supporter, a young worker---well, you have a pretty high mountian to climb so that you are not viewed as a fanatic, paranoid loon. A loon-bat.
Chavez can claim, constantly, that the empire and the oligarchy are out to kill him, that they want to sabatoge, destablize, etc. Why can he do this? Because this is pretty much the evil empire's modus operandi when it comes to smaller nations that try to escape US domination.
Your senerio, on the other hand--is hatched together with no smoking gun, just a theory.
Like Apirl 11, when the rightwing claimed that Chavez ordered the shootings of the unarmed citizens--supporters and opponents. This simply didn't make sense. And on a review of all the data it seems that this could have been a US aided covert action to develop the pretexts for the coup. The fact that some of the generals made a video the day before the killings (Otto Nuestadt from CNN)--well, this simply makes the notion of US planned murder a bit more credible.
Of course, we will never know--and paranoic ideas race like lightening.
Who benefits and who pays?
Leading up to the vote next Sunday, it seems logical that the empire and its minions will engage destablization tactics to try to supress or sway the vote. Especially since it seems unlikely that the Chavez side will outright lose, the only side to gain from promoting tumult and anxiety are the undemocratic, US-allied bums that don't give a shit about average people.
So, go head Brunis and claim that it was Chavez' henchmen that killed this young supporter of the Bolivarian project.
In some sick minds, the death of this young man means one less vote in favor of 'si' next Sunday. YOu are free to jump on that bandwagon Brunis.
Can't you admit that there are some pretty violent, reactionary people on the opposition side?
The important thing to remember is that the weapons and the power are on the side of the government.There is a big difference between the people backed by this gov and people who are opposing...if there is violence, that will engender more violence, and I doubt that either side can be perfectly controlled here even if they try.But the desire of the opp students is for 0 violence, if for no other reason than they are handicapped by the paramilitary forces, and police on the side of Chavez...such an unfair fight,,,our boys have their lives on the line here...such bravery is amazing.We can debate whether or not Government is behind it all, it would not surprise me to find out they are but the true important thing here is that it is not a fair fight in any way shape or form.The students are protesting, which should be their right.I am angry with the few adults who are afraid of loosing their jobs, because of Chavez's threats.....when if they do not give them up now, they are in danger of loosing it all.Remember Chavez says he will do anything to stay in power and that of course implies violence.
I think there are hotheads out there, on both sides. So I don't hold the opposition as a group responsible for this. But the non-coverage by the media is pretty bad.
ow | Homepage | 11.27.07 - 3:58 pm | #
Well, said OW. The non-coverage points up the degree to which the oligarch media simply doesn't respect the hopes and aspirations of the historically marginalized sectors of Venezuelan society. If they did, people wouldn't be marginalized--and the argument now would be over how to improve various areas of social life in Venezuela--not whether the political structure can be changed so that every Venezuelan person recieves basics as a matter of course, as a right of being a citizen.
The oppose tend to run from the idea that their generations-long disrepect for their fellow country women and men created the conditions that made this revolution necessary at this juncture.
Firepig you are so full of shit.
You talk about 'our boys' being non-violent. Yet you don't mention this young worker, Jose Oliveros, that was murdered by anti-Chavez thugs yesterday.
If this had been a university student you would be pastering his photo all over the place--especially if he was lighter skinned.
Remember the young man's name fpig: Jose Oliveros. Just on his way to work in the morning when fanatics from the rightwing took his life. But for you and the other oppo stalwarts, this young man is a non-entity.
Burni cannot even bring herself to fathom the notion that the Venezuelan rightwing might be capable of such violence.
Firepig,
Yes, Chavez can and should do whatever he needs to do to stay in power. by the ballot or by the bullet. he is the only one who can carry on the revolution, and at all costs the revolution must continue. once a country has turned socialist, it must not turn back.
You call the students brave? not at all. they are spoiled and effete little brats who are taking advantages of the freedoms that chavez has given them, to try to re-create the old oligarchy. they don't want a world in which they will actually have to work for a living, they want a world in which they can continue to fly to Miami to buy a suit and continue to exploit the people. No mercy and no sympathy should be shown to these little fascists. 'Your boys' have their 'lives on the line' for what? For the continuation of greed, selfishness, privilege, usury and self interest, all under the name of 'freedom'. This is what your 'freedom' means in practice and always has. Give me less freedom and more justice!
Your 'freedom' is always a slogan used to justify the indefensible. Whether it be anti-social politics, usurious and exploitative economics, perverted sexual practices, the 'freedom' of mothers to destroy their children, the 'freedom' of degenerate oligarch parasites to live off the labor of others. This is the freedom that your brave boys are defending, much like the so-called dissidents (=traitors) in Belarus. I have no sympathy for any of them. You demand the right to exploit the poor or to vote against Chavez, and justify it by 'freedom',. What makes you any different from the people in the US who demand the right to have many wives, or demand the right to marry their sister, or their horse, in the name of 'freedom'. is that what you oppositionists want?
Come to Chavez, now, and your oligarchic past will be forgiven.
Hector, I strenuously disagree--the right to protest and express one's political views and greivences is not 'given' by Chavez.
Rights are always won through popular struggle, going back centuries.
Even if you find their political goals reactionary, Hector, they are fellow citizens and it is their right as citizens to protest.
We must not forget this--because any socialist project will ultimately fail if the right to develop a competing political program is simply smashed. The Bolivarian project will become a mirror image of what it claims to be against.
And this is why Chavez's leinency toward people supporting the coup and the media has tended to work in favor of his nascent political project.
people are skeptical of corporate media bias--as well as the motivations of the US.
Look no further than Colombia to see the type of political regime that is genuinely against the free expression of ideas.
We should be happy that Venezuela is not like Colombia in many respects.
And, more Hector, 'justice' and 'freedom' are inextricably connected. This is not an 'either/or' false dilemma.
I started off with a small mirror, but now it is getting even bigger
I am sad for the loss of any life.opposition or chavista...
Hector you said :
"Yes, Chavez can and should do whatever he needs to do to stay in power. by the ballot or by the bullet. he is the only one who can."
I rest my case....You like tokill in the name of hating those who kill.????.....this is the kind of psychopathy we are seeing here..
"Yes, Chavez can and should do whatever he needs to do to stay in power. by the ballot or by the bullet. he is the only one who can carry on the revolution, and at all costs the revolution must continue. once a country has turned socialist, it must not turn back."
Hector, you are a great troll.
Slave, I'm not naive. I know there are dangerous people on both sides of the issue....but at this point I feel that the last thing the NO wants is trouble in the streets.
JR is now claiming that the Church is behind it and that IMHO is a nonsense, the Church knows that encoraging guarimbas is bad for the No side. Moreover, Chavez is already talking about an international confabulation behind the killing of the worker and the Nth attempt on his life, this time by a reluctant sniper that uses a laser but does not shot.
The goverment sounds desperate to use the killing for political purpose and to create a climate of instability right before the Referendum.
All what is happening favors the goverment, and they are playing their cards.
Aliva, I do not want to be a spiritual adviser to you, because obviously we have very different ideas about what is spiritual and what is not, but even more important I do not want to make you think like me.I do not want to be an adviser to anyone....I am not on this blog to change you but rather to defend what I feel is being crushed here...I am defending mine and other's rights to think, live, and feel like they wish, and not be oppressed by your ideas of revolution.I tried to make the point that the only real revolution is the one that is created within, and grows organically among all peoples,not some kind of military dictatorship where some people get to have a little money at the expense of their personal rights...for what? the guarantee of a few material gains???While I will agree that we need to put a check on the abnormal growth of impersonal cooperations,I believe that this should be done in harmony and respect for all..and not with this kind of hate talk I see among a few on this blog.
Like I said before I am not a Christian...however I believe that many people who are, are wonderful people, and there is much truth in this religion.
Believe it or not the same is true in politics...
we cannot pretend to impose our personal revolutions on anyone.
When the human mind evolves to the point of greater, love, clarity and justice, then it will happen as it should...organically..what you are producing here is more hatred, more confusion and more fanatical reactions....
Ow, I read about that boy in El Universal and Notitarde. So? It is bad, a tragedy and the culprits should be prosecuted, but the media talked about it.
Firepig, don't you understand that the same arguments about 'rights' were deployed by the Slave owners when that evil system was abolished?
The wealthy and the exploiters will alway cry in the face on even the most modest of reforms.
What is repulsive to me are your barbaric sterotypes of people, your fellow Venezuelans, that simply don't agree with you. You use the most classict and repugnant rightwing caricatures.
Only the collective effort of the popular classes will solve proverty and end oppression--and we are doing this peacefully, using the vote and social solidarity.
Your cries of 'dictator' simply make you look silly in the eyes of anyone that questions corporate propaganda.
Brunis--destablization at this point favors the 'no' vote. I disagree with you.
Now, for the tenth time: where is my maple syrup. I will never let you off the hook until I have my Canadian maple syrup. Please....
The point, Kepler, is if this had been an anti-Chavez univeristy student this would have been publicized much, much more. This barely registered in the US media.
If this had been a rightwing, pro-corporate university student from a light-skinned upper middle class family this would be getting all kinds of play.
But, as it stands the name 'Jose Oliveros' will no even register in your memory in three days.
Sorry if this seems cynical, but you have to recognize the bias of oligarch, Euro-owned media.
Firepig--so you are not a Chrisitan.....Jesus still loves you anyway....
it doesn't take much to repulse you slave....you should be questioning yourself a bit more.you are the one making stereotypes as the Mirror continues.....
peacefully ??? your words are quite violent and offensive.
so when can't a person question cooperations without being a revolutionist ??.....your lack of ability to go beyond traditional ideas makes everything for you, an oxymoron.
Your black and white thinking indicates to me( plus your little bouts of rage and insecurity)a case of borderline illness....
keep it up slave...keep it up ...
Thanks for the prognosis Dr. Firepig. How much do I owe you?
Yes, I have always had a problem with class exploitation and oppression. And, indeed, I know that this is considered a pathology among some in the psychiatric community.
What kind of drugs should I take to be cured? Or is a 'talking cure' more apropriate?
Thanks again.
And what's wrong with my little doggerel poem Fpig?
This was just being silly with grac--we have been insulting each other for years.
After he takes a couple hits of crack, he is quite likable.
Slave, start by using my name correctly, then we'll see about that syrup...
Ow, I read about that boy in El Universal and Notitarde. So? It is bad, a tragedy and the culprits should be prosecuted, but the media talked about it.
Sure, buried deep inside the paper.
Hardly comparable to the coverage of the UCV violence.
BTW, Kepler, I didn't hear you refer to the UCV students as "boys".
Hopefully, that is just not appreciating what that means in English and not meant pejoratively.
Firepig,
I don't really think you are a fascist. I think you are mistaken and on the wrong side, but your heart is probably in the right place. I got a bit carried away when you insulted Chavez, the revolution, and the government. I identify myself with the revolutionary project and I take personally any insult to it.
No, the revolution does not seek to kill anyone. But they can and they should respond in kind to any outrages that the opposition carries out. That means that anyone who tries to attack the school of social work, anyone who tries to forcibly resist the land reform measures or other expropriations, and anyone who tries to spy for Colombia, the US, Israel, or whoever else should be dealt with by the Venezuelan Army. The Venezuelan Revolution should not be bloody but it should not be pacifist either. It should respond eye for eye to the behavior of the opposition.
The revolution has no hatred towards you or anyone else. What it hates is injustice, exploitation, capitalism, and liberalism. If you can agree that these awful things need to be done away with, then you are a friend of the revolution.
We don't hate the people who are responsible for these things but we do hate the evil that they have embraced and we believe that they should be educated about socialism so that they can leave their capitalist values behind.
"Young man" is the proper, respectful description.
By the way, this man has a name: "Jose Ovileros"
OW, note the way that Kepler and other oppos quickly say 'ahh...too bad'--and then it is on with their usual screeds.
This thread has to do with Jose's death at the hands of violent, anti-Chavez protesters. And the discussion warrants for than, "shucks....that's the breaks....what about those poll numbers?...."
Pathetic.
Note also, OW, that none of the oppo blogs even mention this. The hypocrisy is glaring.
Sorry, the correct spelling of Jose's last name is "Oliveros"
Again, my thoughts are with this man's family.
Kepler said: "but the media talked about it"
Really, Kepler, you are f..ing dense. You don't get the point about 'how' a story is featured; how long it stays a topic of note and reflection; and how the discussion goes through a cycle and a course to a conclusion.
That 'narrative' is how symbolic information becomes internalized into the general psychic culture of a nation/people.
Mentioning it, and then moving on, points up how the working class and marginalized have always been treated in most Western countries.
OW--remember when John Kennedy Jr.'s plane crashed in NYC? We went through a whole week of non-stop coverage. It was surreal--you'd think that Princess Di was killed or something
Hector,
I am glad that you took your pill. Without it you are rather aggresive.
firepig,
you represent, although you are not personally, the worst of spiritual apoligists. you would have the poor and working class introspect and attain enlightenment, but you do not mention that for the ruling class. why is that? do i detect a bit of calvinism here?
the model used by jesus and shakyamuni has passed its time. not to discard it, but to understant that it alone will not solve the problems of the world and that each area of engagement must be address in its own terms. the lessons of buddhism will help, but they cannot replace the internal logic of each separate arena of life. for example: the two rules of buddhist logic are that a proposition must lead to a successful action and it cannot be contradicted by experience. great lessons, no? or from the jesus side: love thy neighbor as thyself. tough love, too. (this includes the oligarch plow)
i feel a great deal of anger in your remarks about chavez and the conditions of your friends and family. what is that about?
on this blog over the last year i have noticed a lot hatred and anger from oppos and very little from pro revolutionists.
anger and hatred by the oppressed toward their oppressors is tolerable. a process of unwinding the pent up oppression must happen.
when the homes and properties of the elite are torn down and the inhabitants murdered, then you will have a right to complain. this is what has been visited upon the poor and working classes for a very long time.
the media treatment of a chavista's murder is a grim indicator of why you need to meditate more deeply.
Hardly comparable to the coverage of the UCV violence.Valid point. The good thing is they seem to have caught the person responsible. What ever happened to the chavistas on motorbikes that were firing guns at the students? There were plenty of pictures so they should have been able to catch them pretty quickly.
john smartt, I think all people should introspect, although I would never force this on anyone.I have no preference for class.I am angry about Chavez, this is true, but my anger does not lead me to hatred of all people who are against my beliefs, like some people on this thread.Rules in Buddhism represent a certain path in Buddhism, not all of them.There are practices for each type of person with each type of talent or tendency.
Please do not assume I am not or have never been, a poor working class person...because you only show a most arrogant tendency to assumption if you do,you are completely and totally wrong here, and by the way, why do you favor being so trendy?If you cannot benefit by the lesson of Buddhism, that is not my problem...in no way does successful action in Buddhism mean controlling other people , place and things.you say it has passed its time?
Well I believe that true wisdom is eternal,the message of the Buddha, the message of Christ and many others as well...In wisdom, nothing can pass its time.
Oh, Slave Revolt,
"But, I have to ask: why did you steal your cyber name from a third-rate gay porn video."
I can't figure out if that's some homophobic slur, or an expert's critique of the genre. I'm guessing it's probably the former. Unsurprising, considering your hero Castro's repression of homosexuals. What a tolerant little Floridian you are.
Did anyone here read the report obtained from aporrea?
Sorry, that should be:
Did anyone here read the report obtained by aporrea.com?
I think Venezuela is about to be the latest victim of a military dictatorship sponsored by 'outside' intervention who will once again take control of your resources. After that, they will go after Brazil to take control of the new oil field discovered.
firepig,
i've no notion of your life. but your opinions and assumptions indicate you favor world monopoly capitalism and a return to the oligarchy in venezuela. maybe i am wrong here. if so, please clue me in.
what do mean by trendy? lessons from both buddhism and christianity are great. i mentioned two. they are complete in terms of personal liberation. they are not complete in terms of socio-political analysis or how to operate a rototiller. each system needs to be analysed within its own framework.
firepig5 said: I tried to make the point that the only real revolution is the one that is created within, and grows organically among all peoples
who are you to say that the people on this blog as well as chavez is not part of that preferred "organic development"? your seeming preference for ruling class hatred over chavez's hatred may be part or that "organic development", too.
from a spiritual standpoint your arguement is correct. but when generalized it can be used to support anything.
your anger does not make you hate but it does seem to make you shunt your natural intelligence away from the causes and conditions surrounding the bolivarian revolution.
Golden Boy,
The fact that you think that homosexuality is something to be celebrated and applauded and that gay porn videos are apparently something to name yourself after, is an indication of the opposition mind set. What you people call 'freedom' really means the freedom to transgress all boundaries and to see nothing wrong with even perversions like pornography. In other words, licence. The freedom of the money lender to exploit his borrowers, and the freedom of the landlord to exploit his tenants, and the freedom of the traitor to forment a US invasion, is no different from the freedom of pornographers to make pornographic videos. All of them are offenses against morality, and all of them are celebrated by the opposeition. This tells us all we need to know about the opposition and its so-called morals.
Personally, I believe that homosexuality is an unfortunate, probably inborn condition, something that we should have pity and compassion for.certainly not something we should celebrate and applaud. but then again, maybe it's better to encourage all the gay (i.e. non-reproducing) oppositionists we can. the strength of chavistas is that we have a higher birth rate than you people. by the laws of demographics, in two generations Venezuela will belong to the chavistas unquestionably.
I'm reprinting this at my blog.
"The approach of the December 2 referendum on the proposed reworking of Venezuela’s constitution has produced a sharp intensification of the country’s political crisis"
"On Monday, the political violence orchestrated by right-wing opponents of the left-nationalist government of President Hugo Chavez claimed the life of Jose Oliveros, a 19-year-old oil worker, who was shot in the back by opponents of the constitutional reform while heading for work at a state-owned firm in the central state of Aragua. When he attempted to drive down a street blocked by protesters, he was shot and killed"
"The young worker’s death comes after nearly a month of demonstrations—both for and against the reform, which includes 69 additions or amendments to the country’s current constitution"
"Leading the campaign against the reform are the political forces tied to Venezuela’s wealthy oligarchy, backed by Washington, the same forces that sought to overthrow Chavez in the abortive US-supported coup April 2002 and which have since staged a series of political provocations"...
http://tinyurl.com/377mty
Bruni - the tires, gasoline and other paraphernalia were stored in a church in Guacara. Eyewitness reports prove this. Cabeza 'e Motor was in Carabobo on Sunday planning the guarimbas.
Jorge Rodriguez challenged the church to deny that an important bishop was at the same meeting. So far silence from the church.
There are four people in custody for the murder of José Anibal Oliveras Yepez. One is the owner of a agencia de festjos in Valencia. It is he who fired the fatal shots.
It was important to give coverage to this politically motivated murder and all the Globo coverage did was to imply that Yepez was a "car thief" in order to mitigate in a lying media show that he somehow "deserved what he got".
On another matter - the Sí will win easily unless the referendum is postponed by the Sala Constitucional of the TSJ. More verdicts are expected today.
Golden Boy, please, I was merely being humorous--you have to say, the name does lend toward having a little fun with it. But, why are you stalking me?---just like you did at Publis, before I was banned.
Hector, how do you answer the fact that Chavez has many gay supporters. Remember, Hitler threw gays in ovens--homosexuality has been persecuted for centuries. If the Bolivarian project was anti-homosexual, I would not support it. No, for the record I am not gay--but gay people and their right to prosper and be safe is extremely important.
While I respect various opinions on issues--I have to strenuously disagree with some of your assessments about homosexuals. If I did not do as much, I couldn't look the gay friends that I have in the eye.
Again, I was just toying with Golden Toy. But, yeah, it is discomfiting when the guy stalks me. Golden Toy, I am flattered, but, please, give it a rest.
If you came to my milk farm in Belarus I would welcome you and be gracious with you, but the stalking, like you did on Publis, simply has to end.
Anonymous, thanks for the information.
Can anyone deny that Globo, for the good of the health of the Venezuelan people, should have its concession renewed?
Trying to smear the guy as a punk theif, when it was forces that Globo supports that killed Oliveras is beyond slimy--this is seditious, a violence aimed at the people of Venezuela.
More, Anonymous, if what you say is true about the tires and other material for guarimbas stored in a church, then they have to forward an answer.
The same forces of reaction and destablization are trying to frighten the public and demobilize the 'si' vote.
You're so quick to post this:
"yesterday Venezuela saw who the real thugs were."
...as opposed to how slow you had to wait for the official version of events at the UCV shooting. You're bias is obvious. The thugs are mostly on Chavez' side. They're the ones that drive around in motorcycles murdering journalists and innocent female protesters. But have, you've got your one anti-chavez thug (if your version of events is true) so I guess that ONE person outweighs the hundreds of armed thugs we've seen over the course of the last few years on Chavez' side.
jsb, you are clueless!
There was more than one anti-Chavez person at the street blockade that killed Oliveras. About eighty people were detained for questioning.
What about the dozens of university students that participated in trying to burn the pro-Chavez people trapped in the social work building?
Jsb, it is clear that there are hot-heads on both sides. And it is clear that the opposition have been the most apt to break the law and illegally attack the constitutional order in the last eight years.
Too much rightwing propaganda in South Florida has warped your ability to think jsb.
And, more, jsb, it was good for OW to wait and listen to all sources of info about the situation at UCV. He jumped the gun initially and had to take down comments so as not to misinform his readers.
However, this is the opposite of what the oligarch media did--they totally ignored the fact that rightwing students were trying to burn frightened pro-Chavez students alive.
This is as dispicable as trying to label the murdered Oliveras as a common street thug that 'had it coming'. For you not to see the gradations here inclines me to believe that you are simply a fanatic.
jsb - "They're the ones that drive around in motorcycles murdering journalists and innocent female protesters."
The cases to whcih you refer were the murder of Jorge Aguirre outside the UCV and a Spanish lady (Maritza Ron) shot dead on August 16th 2004 in Plaza Altamira.
The motrocyclist who shot photographer Jorge was arrested and had nothing to do with "chavismo". In fact he was an ex Chacao cop.
In the case of the Spanish lady allegedly shot by chavista gunmen on the date mentioned above. Sure there were pictures of guys in red shooting REVOLVERS at the opposition protesters and three were arrested. About one year later the charges of murder were dropped. Why? Because the bullet which killed the victim was shot from a 9MM PISTOL according to ballistic reports. These three are now held for lesser crimes of discharging firearms in public.
The hundreds of chavista thugs you refer to are part of a media show instrumented by the mandacious private media. Look at the student protests near the CNE when the PM is attacked with fencing "civilly" hurled and gasoline is "peacefully" poured into police vehicles.
jsb - blanket statements do not cut any ice here. Sure there are extremists on both sides but hundreds of thugs.....be more specific in your assertions. Propaganda will get you nowhere.
Also, you should realize that the private media will blow everything out of proportion to try, convict and jail chavistas using the media, but then fail to publish the truth when it comes out. This was precisely the case in the two examples detailed above.
Read this. CIA plans hatched with "pitiyanquis" to destabilize referendumm process and government. Note the name "Operación Tenaza". For non Spanish speakers "ternaz" is widely used in Colombia and this makes me think that ex US Ambassador fingerprints are all over this document and plan.
http://www.aporrea.org/tiburon/n...on/
n105390.html
So, if you vote NO then you are voting for US or CIA intervention into Venezuela's internal affairs.
Hey SR,
Thanks for correecting JSB's wrong ideas about who are the real criminals in Venezuela. The murder of Oliveras is just another one in the long string of murder and treasonous acts that the opposition has been committed. And then they wonder why we call them fascists.
What is your best estimation of the referendum polls right now? I am very concerned by the polls showing that our side might lose. Chavez needs to re-focus the debate on what this really is, a referendum on Chavez vs. the capitalist oligarchy. He also needs to emphasize the murders that the oppositionists are committing and make sure the Venezuelan people never forget that the opposition leaders are basically paid spies for the US.
Hector - why do the opposition need to block streets and guarimbear if they are 10% ahead in the polls according to Hinternaces and Datanalysis?
The fact is that the opposition is set to be nocked out again by the chavistas. All the lies about it being a "close race" are just that and fanned in the media.
When the Sí wins then the result will not be accepted by the opposition. You can rest assured on that.
Don't be concerned the Reforms will pass easily.
So, if you vote NO then you are voting for US or CIA intervention into Venezuela's internal affairs.
Anonymous | 11.28.07 - 8:53 am | #
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Yes, that is what I was thinking too. I would go further, if you vote NO you want Bush to remain in power and attack Venezuela, Iran, and Tibet.
Maybe. But I think we need to think about what to do if the reforms fail.
I don't think there is much risk of the opposition getting back into power. The bigger problem is that the support for Chavez has fallen even among the poor who are his biggest supporters.
Chavez needs to focus on staying in power, primarily. Pushing the revolution forward is of secondary importance. Because if he is out of power, then no more revolution.
Maybe next year Chavez should focus again on domestic politics, and tone down the international activities a bit. There should be more cooperatives set up, more land reform, more investment in education and providing jobs to poor Venezuelans. The business with the King of Spain, and Colombia, although it was fun to watch, ultimately doesn't put food on the table of any poor venezuelan. Sometimes you can't get what you want and you have to suck it up and deal with bastards like Uribe, Aznar, Juan Carlos etc.
Chavez needs to do whatever is necessary to hold onto his base of support. While I still hope the referendum wins, if it loses then it would be a good opportunity for Chavez to design a better campaign and a better referendum.
SR,
I'm not anti-gay but I do not think it should be treated at the equivalent of straight marriage. I am not in favor of discrimination against gay people but I also am not in favor of gay marriage. And I opose the kind of promiscuous gay culture that goes on in some US cities. Hitler was gay, btw, although his regime did persecute homosexuals.
Hector, no, I am not swayed by the rightwing Venezuelan blogger delusions. "Si' will most likely win--but I give it five points less than Anonymous.
Yeah, if the oppos were so sure about winning they would not be engaging guarimbas and terrorizing people. The faulty polls are basically the same ploy that these oppos have engaged in every election cycle. And in every election cycle Quico and Daniel masterbate and calculate--convincing themselves that the only way the left can win is through massive, crafty fraud. You can set your watch to their predictable self-delusion.
No, I don't think that Chavez has lost much in the way of support, not at all. This is another delusional, masterbatory fanatsy on the part of Quico and Daniel.
If these were so damn confident, they wouldn't need to ban and censor as they do. That behavior points up their weakness, and how little respect they have for even nominally democratic norms.
About the homosexuals--I have no problem with them marrying, divorcing, having kids, or having orgies. As long as they engage responsibly. It simply is not a concern of mine. I find gay people, in general, much more open minded, critical thinking, and politically astute than your average person. Not to say that their aren't selfish bone-heads (no-pun ) among gay folks.
I am more concerned with selfish, stupid, and easily indoctrinated rightwingers, the people that support and are manipulated by imperialism and oligarchy.
Hector, keep in mind that if Chavez does lose--we still win, because this is a people's, democratic process of change. Chavez is no thug--he genuinely wants to empower the people vrs. the oligarchy and imperialism.
Even some of those that are duped to vote 'no' are our people--they will have simply been frightened into rejecting the unfolding future where oligarchy, the masters, are progressively disempowered.
Chavez has been as successful as he has because the program is based on the deeper meanings and tradition of 'democracy' and mutual solidarity.
However, we have to dismantle an ideological matrix that has been erected over decades.
The people are with Chavez when it comes to the basics of developing a more just and healthy society. But this is not to say that Chavez cannot make errors and fuck things up now and then.
With Jesus, Buddha, and Che on our side, over the long-haul, there is no way we will lose if we remain strong and engaged. Word.
Hector . . . make up your mind. Are you against promiscuous gay culture, or are you against gay marriage? I mean, stopping them from getting married doesn't seem to me like a good way of influencing gays to be less promiscuous. Maybe that's just me.
And not that it's remotely relevant, but Hitler had a female lover so was presumably at a minimum bi rather than gay. Some of his top thugs were flaming like blowtorch. Others weren't. Meanwhile, Hitler *was* a vegetarian, so maybe we'd better hesitate before we give those shifty Vegans any rights. And of course, one thing Hitler, Goering and all the other Nazis had in common, as well as Stalin and all those vicious KGB and gulag adminsitrators . . . they were all white. So if we're going to play games with irrelevant characteristics of bad guys, there's plenty of directions that can cut. Sheesh.
Read this. CIA plans hatched with "pitiyanquis" to destabilize referendumm process and government. Note the name "Operación Tenaza". For non Spanish speakers "ternaz" is widely used in Colombia and this makes me think that ex US Ambassador fingerprints are all over this document and plan.It's pretty sad that they can't find anything else through the FOIA so they have to resort to making things up. Just in time for the vote too. How convenient.
http://www.aporrea.org/tiburon/n...on/ n105390.html
So, if you vote NO then you are voting for US or CIA intervention into Venezuela's internal affairs.
Truly a sad state of affairs. Looks like someone is getting a little desperate.
Hey Firepig, Kepler, and Bruni,
I am going to start simply not responding to what you guys say. I don't really think any of you are fascists. Just very severely wrong on the issues. Every time I respond to you guys I get more than a little angry and tempted into a rather un-Christian degree of outrage, and say things that are more extreme than what I really feel. It's not good for any of us.
Incidentally, I don't think that you guys should ever be stopped from speaking, unless you start being openly treasonous. The opposition, however wrong and pernicious their political views, has a certain role to play in a socialist society. That role is to test the faith of the Chavistas. Faith that isn't tested isn't worth very much. The Chavistas need you guys in the same way that the Church needs its village atheists.
I don't want to see you guys anywhere near the levers of power, and I think that you should use your freedoms responsibly, but nor do i want to see any of you prevented from speaking, except when social order is under threat. In a true socialist society, people should be able to hear the viewpoints that you espouse and then freely reject them.
Heh, Slave Revolt,
"But, why are you stalking me?---just like you did at Publis, before I was banned."
You certainly have a vivid imagination there in Florida. How exactly do you stalk to someone by commenting on a blog? You were banned at Publius because you told everyone you were living in Nicaragua as some kind of gringo Sandinista and not to bring my "Contra talk down here." When the blog owner humiliated you by revealing your IP Address came from Florida, you changed screen names several times. Eventually, she got fed up with your nonsense and lies and banned you outright.
I'm just having fun letting everyone know what a wild imagination you have there pretending to be some hellfire revolutionary while living off the tit of the empire in Florida!
No, Golden Toy, OW, the blog host, is well aware of Mora y Leon, and he sanctioned by infiltration of that pro-empire blog.
You don't come to imperialist blogs that don't value free discussion and put your cards on the table. My work has involved counter-psyops. Doing my part to fight imperialist dogma and disinformation.
But I do remember Golden Toy. More, Publius, still engages its brazen pro-empire propaganda and censorship with abandon.
By the way, I don't live 'off' Empire--in that I don't partake in the consumerist parasitisim that marks the "American Way of Life". And I do ally myself with folks trying to cast off imperialism's yoke.
So, Golden Toy, what's your point?
You stalked me at Mora's blog--and now you have found my home base. And, yes, I was a bit discomfited having someone with a monicur that brings to mind a bad porn flick trying to 'expose' me.
But I have strived to work through my homophobia--and I am flattered by your attention. Now bug off Golden Toy. And tell Mora that Slave sends his reguards.
Thanks for the information on topics.I was excited by this article.
Thank you again.
College online for good ideas.
"It's pretty sad that they can't find anything else through the FOIA so they have to resort to making things up."
In a TV interview yesterday Foreign Minister Maduro stated that the person in the US Embassy who wrote the memorandum would be expelled from Venezuela.
If the person is expelled then there is little doubt that the memorandum is genuine. Until that point hang on to your doubts.
Don't get too excited Ben, Unless you are doing a college paper on people who sit at their computers and design the future of countries that are not their own.If you want info about Venezuelan politics, you need to know Spanish, go to Venezuela, speak to all sides, and then make your own conclusions.Never get info from sites like this, or from other people in general, including me.
That would be the responsible thing to do, otherwise do not form an opinion.The world is full of bad information handed out by people with agendas...this is my pet peeve.I do not pretend at this point to know anything about a country I only read about or from which I have a few personal references ...I can speak for Venezuela,Belarus and the States and that is it .....how India is doing I can only speculate, and not write about with any real authority..the media and other information venues are being poisoned by wrong info based on personal agendas from around the world, that is why and I REPEAT...go get your own info from the horses mouth..If anyone on the site objects to your finding out your own truth, then I would wonder....
Hector, it is an excellent idea for you to stop responding.You seem to have an anger management problem.But what I am not convinced of is when you blurt out things, that you don't say what is really on your mind...but let's not argue hypothetical points...I know how to hold up mirrors very well, that is my job.
One thing I can assure you of so that you truly calm down, is that I will get nowhere near the levers of power.What is so hilarious here is that if you knew me you would SO change your tune with me....The last thing I want is power over others..I am more about personal power to change myself and not others.That is why we are on opposing camps in some ways...
My idea of life is this:
taking care of my family and helping those I can in my small world...learning new things, being the person I think is the best way to be , doing my Buddhist practices...accepting the reality of the temporary.....well you get the gist...I am a small person with a fairly big heart...and small I will stay....I absolutely hate politics, I am only blogging temporarily until most likely after the referendum stuff subsides.I am only on blogs right now to put in my 2 cents...but it is very distasteful to me deal with political types...I am a poet, a musician, a housewife and a mother....not someone who has grand designs on anything....
I hope you are feeling better now.
When the blog owner humiliated you by revealing your IP Address came from Florida, you changed screen names several times. Eventually, she got fed up with your nonsense and lies and banned you outright.
------------------------
That was a silly and lame excuse Golden Boy to ban SR. No blog owner gets fed up with detractors who spout nonsense -they normally contribute to reinforce by contrast the blog's owner political line. So the most obvious reason is that SR was doing damage to her posturings by pocking big holes into them.
BTW, IP addresses mean nothing. You can borrow them or have several by-proxy accounts in different countries, if you really want to protect your identity. Which is what I do for example.
Hey, SR, we are going to win big time on Sunday! Talk to you guys later.
That would be the responsible thing to do, otherwise do not form an opinion.The world is full of bad information handed out by people with agendas...this is my pet peeve.
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I was about to leave -for I'm in a rush- but I happened to read the above statement. Firepig, don't you think you ought to strive for some elementary logic from time to time? You warn Ben against the dubious value of information circulating here, while at the same time you INFORM him using this SAME tool. Why should he -or anyone for that matter- take you seriously? Well, unless you pretend that you have no agenda whatsoever and that logic is beneath your poetic inclinations.
Firepig1986 is likely a computer generated spam, intended to get you to click on the link.
It is hard to 'get excited' reading about a violent, unnecessary death due to extremism.
But, hey, that's just me.
Firepig, get used to it. People have the right to voice opinions about situations going on in the world. What we need are critical readers that can break down the propaganda from the various sides and make ethical judements.
We cannot escape the interpetive loop--there is no objective Archemedian point from which to view the world in a pure and 'correct' fashion. This has to do with each person's deep biases--and the fact that we each are limited and constrained.
But I do believe that the more democratic the flow of information the better the information tends to be.
Moyhabin, yes I sincerely hope that 'si' wins Sunday. And if it doesn't then that means that the Bolivarians have to learn from their mistakes. This is what engaging the democratic process is all about.
Anonymous--i really believe this communication was a form of black ops, but I totally agree with it as a defensive strategy.
One would be on crack if one thought that the US isn't doing anything it can to destablize and work with the anti-democratic forces so as to eventually destroy the left, socialist progression.
Especially the 'student' movement--this is likey formed with the help of the US State Department.
As far as the elaborate destablization strategies in this report--well, it is good to excersize one's mind in how the empire is 'likely' to engage in an escalating amalgum of events.
Never think for a moment that the US isn't doing what it can to destroy the progress of democratization and nascent socialsim anywhere in the world. These people are mercenary--they could kill a millioin Venezuelans to get Chavez out of power and destroy the Bolivarian project they would do it in the snap of a finger.
A larger, decripit, racist worldview guides these mofos. They are fanatics that use terror to achieve their ends.
I am not online now to convince others of anything, but I suggest they form their own opinions without listening to any of us too much...that is my only message to Ben....your logic skills do not impress me either, so we are tied there...I would never try to argue about your World plans, because they are too absurd in my opinion to even discuss...I am more interested in the psychology behind the aggression that I have been seeing in some of your statements.This is my angle here, nothing else, and herein lies my own personal expertise...I hold up mirrors for people...this is my only purpose here...to waste time on discussing your ways of running other people's lives or in Venezuela are too silly to even consider.I can just imagine your plans when we get to food wars.....such delusions of grandeur Why should I argue details when the substance is so important to question here ?
I am not online now to convince others of anything, but I suggest they form their own opinions without listening to any of us too much...that is my only message to Ben....your logic skills do not impress me either, so we are tied there.
----------------------------------
It's not a question of impressions, but again, of simple, elementary and basic logic: if you use the internet to advise others to disregard anything being said through it, such assertion automatically disqualifies your own advise. Duh!
I hold up mirrors for people...
----------------------
I suppose you do this so that you aren't forced to see your own reflection on the mirror. A classic case of delusional paranoia: I live at the perfect, beautiful and pristine center of the universe, while arround me there is solely madness and chaos.
In a TV interview yesterday Foreign Minister Maduro stated that the person in the US Embassy who wrote the memorandum would be expelled from Venezuela.How does that prove anything? I find it highly suspicious that this "letter" tries to connect everybody that is against Chavez to the US. It's the whole "them or us" strategy which might win Chavez his Si vote, but will further worsen his already damaged international image.
If the person is expelled then there is little doubt that the memorandum is genuine. Until that point hang on to your doubts.
Anonymous, it is clear that the violent and criminal US empire is doing all it can in Venezuela to change the course of events toward its selfish, barbaric ends.
If you think otherwise, you are incredibly naive or simply deluded.
Just look no further than the groups that cheered on the coup five years ago. These are people that would happily let the US do a Fallujah on the barrios if it meant getting themselves back in power.
Chavez is dealing with comprador traitors, for the most part. So, therefore, fighting fire with fire is appropriate.
The problem with you oppos is that you don't offer even a minimal program that can compete with Chavez' vision of future for Venezuela.
What is your program: grovelling and keeping silent in the face of continued US crimes of agression? pfft....this is why your so despised among most of the Venezuelan population. The people don't think highly of sell-outs and traitors for empire.
If you were on the side of the people your program would reflect such--but your not, your for the status quo ante: trips to Disney World while your fellow Venezuleans are trapped in permanent impoverishment that never lets up, only gets worse.
I am not telling anyone about Venezuela...people should go find out for themselves because the info is too confusing....
Of course I hold the mirror to myself otherwise I couldn't hold it to you....just the fact that you say that shows me you know nothing about the quality of a mirror.
...Venezuelans would never live in the hell you guys would like to impose...and by the way you have no right to interfere in our country...much less in the arrogant dictatorial and deviant way you do...but Karma answers all...
Looks to me like you are terribly interested in what you will gain personally by all this...either that or this is just a little dungeons and dragons type game you are playing here..very childish and quite pathological.
Chavez is history....and the rest, just guess.
Fpig, you are not be generous and your accusation border on the delusional.
You are losing it!
Please, on December 3rd you will pick yourself up, and carefully place all the broken pieces of that fabled mirror in the trash.
Then you can revisit the religious texts that you bastardize and try to get your shit together again.
Whatever you do, don't take your anger with the majority of pro-revolutionary Venezuelans out on your family. Bad karma.
Speaking of karma--John Lennon would support these reforms, and so would Buddha and Jesus.
You are one of the MOST delusional people I have encountered SLAVE...just imagine, trying to master mind a life for other people in another country..
9 even though it is all in you own delusional mind).I don't know how many retards you have fooled, but multiplied they represent your karmic debt...the karmic debt for trying to rule over others instead of facing your fears.
the streets of Venezuela are filled with protests, black, white and criollo, poor and rich and in between...just as it should be..not this divided hateful world you so love, of poor blacks only.Venezuela will go back to it's old loving self in no time...go find another country to ruin in your mind Slave...
SR, this roasted pig is beginning to smell tasty. Keep on turning it over so that we can celebrate a little feast on next Sunday!
obviously you live the fearful life of the intellect only..you need to include a few more intelligent centers into your repertoire, like instincts, heart and spirit,the life of mind only will never give you the security you need to know the truth...so you will be fearful and then project your fears into paranoia, seeing in others what is really in yourself...thus the need to control others....the perfect combo for the turning out of social engineers
I suggest tai chi...it will reconnect you with your body
Thanks for the advice Kepler. Tai chi seems hip--can you eat sushi and do it at the same time?
How is your husband? And the children?
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