OW, this is kind of like the gurimbas, and like April 11th. Yes, the capitalist media have no qualms about lying and creating an opinion matrix through which the US empire's objectives are furthered.
This is why oligarch media needs to be smashed--and more democrtic forms of information/cultural dissemination need to be devleoped.
Allowing oligarchs to control inordinate amounts of the public flow of information is simply suicide.
Globo is next. 
BTW, here is a very interesting interview with some pro-Chavez students who were there - both outside and inside the Social Work:
http://www.aporrealos.org/actual...ad/
n104400.html
It has some of the same video but also some additional video not in the post.
Note the opposition students wearing hardhats and gas masks. I've always respected this about the opposition: they never show up to a riot unprepared.
SR, the media does need to be demractized, that is for sure. But truly democratized, not just controlled by the State. But that is a big discussion for another day.
I do feel bad on not having looked into these events earlier and actually sucked up the bullshit peddled by the mainstream media (and our opposition trolls here) on this. My bad.
Off topic. Did you guys see how Mr. Zapatero put Chavez in his place? What an arrogant clown Chavez is.
The king said what most people would tell him: "Why don't you shut up???"
slave revolt, please send a blank email to apechatter @ gmail.com, i have a project you might be interested in.
----
Events like this demonstrate the power of the mass media. In five years time we'll have the escualidos reminding us of the time armed chavistas fired on innocent protestors in 2002 and 2007.
Grac, that discussioin was under the previous thread.
The question posed was why an unelected monarch even got invited to a meeting of democratic leaders.
I still want to see more evidence to make up my mind, while there is ample evidence that these students really behave like people NOT being shot at, we still do not know what happened before this.
OW, I really thought you better than that. I mean read your blog when ever I have the chance and post when I can. You might be of the social-democrat type but I know you can't be that gullible to believe the bullshit coming from the US. Your better then that OW.
Aliva,
What is more likely? That armed Chavistas came to defend the building against attack and scare away the attackers?
Or that Chavistas are so dumb they don't know that provoking escualidos with guns is unnecessary and bad press for Chavez?
Correction:
"... believe the bullshit coming from the US private capitalist propaghanda machine.
Whoops, Aliva. Sorry I misread you
Whoops, Aliva. Sorry I misread you
Anonymouse | 11.10.07 - 6:50 pm | #
Don't sweat it Anonymouse it happens.
After brief incursions into other blogs I have grown very tired of the bullshit being pettled by them. I see no difference between those blogs(who espouse as if intellectually superior) and the capitalist media of the world. They intenionally lie and misrepresent to maintain their precious system, as it currently exists, intact.
To put it bluntly, shit's gonna get deeper. El pueblo Bolivariano is at the point of no return.
OW, they are on the path to true democracy. I know you are fully aware of this. They have the choices. The social-ecomomic system at the forefront of the world is in coming into crystal clear view.This is that systems death. Not through a violent overthrow but through choice.The building of the parallel structures of direct people control is the nightmare that the capitalist classes and their lackies are trying to prevent. My greatest fear is how far they will take it. Because we all know that the Capitalists of the world will unite.
EL pueblo has the choice in front of them. That is revolution. Something that will not be allowed to happen in the USA.
I remember in the previous comments sections about how someone thought that Venezuelan society should be like this blog. I concur but for the entire globe. I repeat that this place is proof that the internet is a very powerful tool for the handing of all power to the people and in the death,by choice, of this bougi-capitlist run society.
ow,
i've found it refreshing and more informative to never under any circumstances watch or read mainstream news.
alternative source reporters, like you and others, watch and read in order to critique. great! we thank you, sincerely.
but for your own health: when not working leave the media poison alone.
be well,
slave,
totally agree with you. even though the current lies are blatant, most usa'ers and oppo's still cannot grasp the depth and direction of the programming.
the mass media is political sports, political soap opera. completely useless for us. perfect forum for supporting the empire and dividing those who aspire to justice, freedom and participatory democracy.
OW, I have never seen you so manipulative. One of the students in the video you are showing even tell the story in Spanish and you don't even mention it!
What do you make of the tens of motorcicles with armed men? What do you make of the nine students that were injured by firearms?
Those students outside are unarmed. The chavistas with the hoods and in mtorcycles were very well armed thank you.
You are just presenting a piece of what happened, manipulator that you are.
It seems that the events were the following.
This is the story that is being unfold:
09 de noviembre de 2007
El Nacional
Ayer comenzó con lentitud el proceso de identificación de los individuos responsables de agredir a los estudiantes que participaron en la marcha contra la reforma constitucional, en las adyacencias de la escuela de Trabajo Social de la Universidad Central de Venezuela.
La Dirección de Seguridad del campus elaboró un informe preliminar sobre estos sucesos, en los que 11 personas resultaron heridas. El documento se basa en los testimonios de los vigilantes que operaron en los turnos de la mañana y los que entraron a trabajar a partir de la 1:00 pm.
Simultáneamente, la Federación de Centros Universitarios recabó información para sustanciar una denuncia ante el Ministerio Público. El documento será entregado en los próximos días.
Hasta el momento, se cree que un primer grupo de revoltosos tomó posiciones al mediodía en los alrededores del Rectorado y en la Puerta Tamanaco, que da acceso a la universidad desde Plaza Venezuela.
A la 1:00 pm, cuando se efectuaba el cambio de guardia de los vigilantes, un grupo armado incendió un autobús, placas AA-178X, que llegó en la mañana con estudiantes del estado Guárico. Estaba estacionado detrás del Rectorado. En ese hecho supuestamente participó un representante del Fondo Único Social del Estado Vargas, apodado "Sombrita". Los efectivos de Seguridad del campus apresaron a un joven estudiante de la Escuela de Sociología.
No obstante, tuvieron que soltarlo pues fueron rodeados por motorizados armados que llegaron a rescatarlo.
Tanto el funcionario del FUS como el estudiante se replegaron posteriormente hacia la Escuela de Trabajo Social. Allí fueron vistos junto con tres supuestos militantes del colectivo Alexis Vive, que opera en el 23 de Enero, conocidos como Morales, Darrell y Castillo. Los dos últimos presuntamente son estudiantes de la propia escuela.
Foráneos.
Miembros de la FCU y empleados de seguridad de la universidad comentaron que la mayoría de las personas que arremetieron contra los estudiantes que regresaban de la marcha no frecuentan la casa de estudios.
Por las motocicletas y las armas que usaron, se cree que son funcionarios de cuerpos policiales. La presencia de extraños en la UCV se incrementó luego de las 4:00 pm, cuando grupos de motorizados encapuchados actuaron en los alrededores de las escuelas de Odontología y Farmacia, en la zona sur del campus.
Fue allí donde los estudiantes lograron atrapar al conductor de una motocicleta armado. Le quitaron una pistola, pero no pudieron identificarlo. Luego llegaron sus acompañantes a disparar contra los estudiantes, y también fue liberado.
Estos motorizados se encargaron de sacar en caravana a los líderes del grupo que estaba atrincherado en la Escuela de Trabajo Social. Salieron disparando hacia el Paseo Los Ilustres. En la zona estaban apostados efectivos de la PM.
A las 6:00 pm entró
Sorry, Bruni, as unfortunate as it is for the oppositions narrative of events the video is real.
Opposition students are attacking people in a building. THey are trying to set fire to it and stone it. Why? Why were they doing that? Are those the actions of innocent or peaceful people?
Tell me Bruni when you go to a political rally to you wear a hard had and gasmask? Do people with peaceful intent wear such things? Looks to me like someone was spoiling for a fight.
And if someone was really shooting AT YOU would you be cacually standing around or stand in the open and throw rocks at them?
I am sure there are lots of details to this - maybe not all of which I know and maybe some of which would show violence and agression by pro-Chavez students.
But it is very clear the oppostiion students were no innocent victims here. Looks like they gave as good as they got.
Our candorous Bruni thinks that any of us will ever take seriously the mediatic garbage that custommarily El Nacional dumps on us. Just as a little representative gem of how "fair" their reporting is, let's consider the following:
"A la 1:00 pm, cuando se efectuaba el cambio de guardia de los vigilantes, un grupo armado incendió un autobús, placas AA-178X, que llegó en la mañana con estudiantes del estado Guárico. Estaba estacionado detrás del Rectorado. En ese hecho supuestamente participó un representante del Fondo Único Social del Estado Vargas, apodado "Sombrita". Los efectivos de Seguridad del campus apresaron a un joven estudiante de la Escuela de Sociología.
No obstante, tuvieron que soltarlo pues fueron rodeados por motorizados armados que llegaron a rescatarlo."
Never, in the above narrative, does "El Nacional" clarify that according to the driver's own testimony the attackers who forced him to abandon his bus at gunpoint and then burned it, were OPPOSITION students. The video of the driver's testimony is now widely disseminated in the public sphere, but the reationary rag "El Nacional" simply ignores it. That speaks volumes about this rag's notion of fairness and objectivity.
You Chavez people are simply sick and fascist.
Thankfully the people in the US are waking up and finally asking the government to help Venezuela. The only way that Venezuela will be free of tyranny and communism is with US help. Everyone knows this, and this is why Chavez is lashing out, this is why he is paying these thugs to frighten the students.
How many more people have to die so that type of twisted experiment in communism?
El Nacional is right, the thugs that burned the bus are Fidelistas and Chavistas. Stop lying.
"One of the students in the video you are showing even tell the story in Spanish and you don't even mention it!"
He might be telling "the story" (or at least his side of it) but the puzzle persists and the oppo story sounds pretty fishy: would you openly throw stones and molotov cocktails at people who have guns and are hiding inside a building? Wouldn't you at least try to protect your life? If you would, then I guess you'd make a good Palestinian citizen and you are in the wrong country
Thankfully the people in the US are waking up and finally asking the government to help Venezuela.
----------------------------------------
This tells us exactly where you stand: you are one of those who considers imperialist invasions and the ensuing destruction of entire nations as a "democratic", "humane" and "legitimate" way of "liberating" people. Truly laughable!
I suppose US people's support for such criminal adventures is "unconditional", and that explains why Bush's rate of approval is so high and why everyone is so pleased with the failed invasion of Iraq and would like to see Venezuela invaded too.
Moises Naim has written an article entitled "Hugo Chavez's Criminal Paradise". I will not repost the link here. You can read it on Daniel's blog or Kate's.
OW...the hard hats were worn in the march by Engineering students, it's an iconic thing.
Gas mask are pretty common in those marches, i guess you know why lots of tear gas bombs were trown from the escuela de trabajo social.
Sad that you're being impartial as you usually are, there two sides to this story, and both are highly exagerated to reflect their point of view.
It's absurd that the opposition students attacked the school just because there were "chavistas" inside, chavistas are everywhere, some kind of dispute must have ocurred previously, as the El Nacional article Bruni posted says (an numerous eye witnesses also)
The Bus was obviously burned by chavistas, the march was already way on its way to the TSJ, i'd like to see the driver's testimony, but either way, it's completely absurd to think that while the march was going on some opposition students stayed just to burn a bus, that happened to have carried opposition students to the march from Guarico state with all their belongings inside...
"Hugo Chavez's Criminal Paradise".
What an appealing title that is! Subtle, mysterious, enticing and nuanced. I'm sure it must be a very complex, balanced, intelligent, surprising and unpredictable narrative. The title suggests a beautiful essay with all the rich texture of literary classics such as the Decameron and the Tales of Canterbury. I'm sure that if the Barón of Münchhausen could come back to life, he would immediately die again of mere literary jealousy.
You seem impervious to REAL facts Le Chucky. How about taking into consideration the words of the bus driver himself?
Care to share the bus driver testimony with us? i on the other hand, heard a completely different version from one of the marchers that came to Caracas in that same bus.
"some kind of dispute must have ocurred previously,"
And even if a bus was burned previously that justifies that attack at the school???????? Are we dealing with the law of the jungle here?
BTW, where were the UCV security staff the whole time this was happening?????
"Care to share the bus driver testimony with us?"
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
The video is on aporrea and was aired on TV. Look for it yourself.
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
"i on the other hand, heard a completely different version from one of the marchers that came to Caracas in that same bus."
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Right. A totally "objective" source.
Maybe Moy was referring to this?
http://www.aporrea.org/medios/n1...os/
n104480.html
While tyrany decimates the Venezuelan nation, true justice shines bright in a truly democratic regime:
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
"A U.S. soldier has been acquitted of three murder charges after investigations into the killings of three Iraqis earlier this year, the U.S. military said Saturday. A court-martial, however, did find Staff Sgt. Michael Hensley, a sniper from the 1st Battalion, 501st Airborne, guilty of wrongfully placing an AK-47 rifle beside the body of an Iraqi man. Hensley was one of three U.S. soldiers charged with the killings of three Iraqis in separate incidents during U.S. operations between April 14 and May 11 near the town of Iskandariya, 25 miles south of Baghdad."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21726851/
Transparency International publishes a Corruption Perceptions Index.The least corrupt is Denmark....number one. Of the 179 countries they rank Venezuela comes in at 162.
Nice video, though it looks kinda staged, anyway i fail to see the part where he proofs that the opposition students burned it, he clearly says, that while the march was going on, a couple of "muchachos" carying guns took me out of the bus and proceeded to burn it, no mention whatsoever of their political possition, but if they were armed, it's not that crazy to link them with the motorized "rescuers" is it? after all, the bus was not carrying chavistas, the driver says he brought students from San Juan de los Morros to march to the TSJ.
Le Chucky, I have this very wise and old Spanish adage: "No hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver".
In other words, your case is not one of failed visual perception, but simply one of mental distortion. In that sense you remind me of Graco: you both seem to suffer from brain achromatopia. Unfortunately, it has no cure.
Transparency International publishes a Corruption Perceptions Index.The least corrupt is Denmark....number one. Of the 179 countries they rank Venezuela comes in at 162.
John | 11.11.07 - 10:49 am | #
-----------------------------
If you don't mind: how do they rank Mexico? -A country whose corruption system (yes, it is a very well oiled machinery; a true system) I have personally studied
Allowing oligarchs to control inordinate amounts of the public flow of information is simply suicide.
Globo is next.
Slave Revolt | 11.10.07 - 6:24 pm | #
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This is as true for the USA as it is for Venezuela and anyplace else. Good comment.
Moy i'm familir with the adage, you should keep it in mind too 
Eugene Weixel: yeah Slave Revolt's idea is trully wonderful, if counter information through more than 6 chavista tv stations doesn't work, just close the damn remaining opposition one. Fuck RESORT law and all that shit, just let our "people" take care of that.... yeah glorious idea, it sure will bring a lot popularity to your comandante, all over the planet.
http://wiki.zmag.org/
Transparenc...y_International
Looks like a hybrid US Government /George Soros currency speculation moneyman/flat out zionist operation. Try to find something objective, John.
Transparency International
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Transparency International (Hijacking Human Rights)
As Kevin Pina notes, Transparency International “has been described by several British organizations on the left as ‘a tool to destabilize Governments for corporate interests under the guise of exposing corruption.’”[1] However, like many ‘democratic’ groups, Transparency International has a fundamentally different conception of their own role, and so they note that they are the “global civil society organisation leading the fight against corruption”. Interestingly, both of Transparency International’s founders, Michael J. Hershman and Frank Vogl, have received the Ethics Resource Center’s Stanley C. Pace Leadership in Ethics Award: this is particularly significant because although the Ethics Resource Center describes itself as the “oldest non-profit in the United States devoted to organizational ethics” it’s board of directors includes ‘democratic’ people like Brent Scowcroft (and even the award winning Frank Vogl).
Transparency International’s cofounder Michael J. Hershman is a counterrorism expert (thus he is president of the Fairfax Group and helps lead Civitas Group), he has also been deputy auditor general for the Foreign Assistance Program at USAID (where he was “responsible for worldwide security at all foreign AID missions”). The other founder of Transparency International, Frank Vogl, is a trustee of the Committee for Economic Development and serves on the international advisory council of the New Israel Fund. ‘Democratic’ directors at Transparency International include chairwomen Huguette Labelle (who is a former president at the Canadian International Development Agency), Nancy Zucker Boswell (who is a member of USAID’s Advisory Committee on Voluntary Foreign Aid), and Laura Puertas Meyer (who is an economist and journalist who founded the Instituto Prensa y Sociedad – a group that has received NED aid).[2] ‘Democratic’ advisory council members at Transparency International include John Brademas, Mary Robinson, Jessica Tuchman Mathews, and Peter Eigen (who has spent most of his career working for the World Bank, but has also worked for the Ford Foundation and the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, and also sits on the advisory council of Realizing Rights). According to Transparency International’s 2005 Annual Report they receive funding from numerous government development agencies (including USAID), from the Ford Foundation and the Open Soros Development Foundation, and a multitude of corporations (e.g. BP, Exxon, Rio Tinto, and Shell), the Center for International Private Enterprise, and Partners of the Americas.
"no mention whatsoever of their political possition, "
Good point - so why are some saying it was Chavistas who burned a bus? ANd how would that justify a mob attacking people in a building?
http://www.narconews.com/Issue25.../
article10.html
Venezuela: "The Show Must Go On!"
IAPA: Complicit in 1973 Coup in Chile
By Thierry Deronne
Reporting from Venezuela
October 4, 2002
A SEPTEMBER DAWN, 2002, IN THE VENEZUELAN COUNTRYSIDE: From a white vehicle that passes by a parking lot, some “unknown persons” throw four molotov cocktails. On the other side, someone puts out the fires right away: no victim, no damage. It’s just that the parking lot belongs to a regional affiliate of the commercial TV chain, “Globovision.” 1 And that the “attack” happens a few hours from the official visit to the region by President Hugo Chávez: and at the precise moment when a tripartite delegation of the Organization of American States (OAS), the Carter Foundation and the PNUD are investigating the issue of freedom of speech in Venezuela.
Next, Globovision denounces, with grand visual spectacle, a “Bolshevist attack with grenades.” It broadcasts archival footage of a car-bomb attempt against a Venezuelan president, decades ago. The editor of the daily El Nacional, Miguel Enrique Otero2, without waiting for any investigation, confirms: “The government has created para-governmental squads to act against the media and journalists,” and, “Chavez’s speech is responsible for the aggressions.”3. El Nacional’s front page displays an immediate letter from Robert Ménard, director of Reporters Without Borders, who demands that the Venezuelan government put an end to violence against the press.
A week later, when the OAS has left the country, the daily El Nacional resumes its campaign of aggressions against the Community Media4. This time, the target is the Community Radio station of Antimano. The reporter mentions a poster on the wall of the studio as proof of its Chavista nature, and criticizes the fact that the radio station says that there was a coup d’etat in Venezuela. El Nacional denounces the “illegality” of this radio station and 100 Community Media outlets in the entire country. Some weeks ago, the radio station in El Nacional’s target was victim of harassment by security forces in the hands of the Anti-Chavez opposition. Its members were liberated after the Community Media movement took to the streets.
In reality, El Nacional, a key newspaper in the organization of the coup, rejects, with any type of argument it can conjure, the possibility of pluralism of information in Venezuela. Its reporter quotes Miguel Ángel Martínez, president of the private-sector Chamber of Radio Industries, who denounces the “illegality” of the Community Radio stations. Martínez, in the name of the Chamber, publicly signed the decree of the short-lived coup d’etat last April. Later, in a public assembly on the tourist island of Margarita, he asked his affiliates to interfere with the frequencies of Community Media broadcasters when the next coup comes.
From July to August 2002, Paul-émile Dupret, a development advisor to the European Parliament, who videotaped a
Hi OW,
Now do you recognize the danger? these students have clearly been suborned by the US embassy. there is a vast but invisible conspiracy all across Venezuela. the same people broke Carlos Ortega out of prison and have been responsible for the crime and murder wavve, probably by smuggling guns into the country. Even on this blog there are people openly calling for a US intervention. The situation is terrifying. Chavez could fall any day because the enemy is at the gates. Even though probably 60-70% of the people love and are devoted for him, a dedicated minority will stop at nothing to destroy Chavez even if they have to drown the country in blood.
Please, OW, what are your suggestions on how Venezuela can escape the looming threat, getting ever closer, of a US invasion?
http://www.narconews.com/Issue25.../
article10.html
continued
...If the Community Media has one vital task, it is to reinvent the idea of information, because the commercial, monopolistic TV stations – sub-copies of United States television – have destroyed that very concept. It’s as if no International Convention of Journalism ever existed. It’s “anchors” interrupt their brief news items during the programs to sell all kinds of products – shampoo, fashion clothes, miracle creams – without any type of transition. The “news reporters” are reduced to parrot a unilateral and obsessive form of political propaganda. They are absolutely racist (you won’t see a black anchorperson, for example) when the population is, in a large part, of African origin. What’s more, they’ve always looked with scorn upon the popular neighborhoods where 80-percent of the population lives, describing them as the ultimate bastions of hell, of vice, of delinquency, and calling for an iron fist against their inhabitants...
Hi OW,
I should make it clear though that while I despise the opposition leaders including these student 'protesters', and i do fear a US intervention, I am also very concerned about recent things i have been hearing about the government.
Baduel and Tascon are being called traitors and kicked out of the party? BADUEL and TASCON? No this can't be. These are not capitalists or liberals. They both gave loyal and devoted service to the Revolution at considerable personal cost. The only people who should be vilifed and suppressed are open counter revolutionaries, neither of which these men is. Debate between the revolution and its enemies is perhaps sometimes too dangerous but debate WITHIN the revolution is absolutely necessary. The revolution is too threatened and beset with danger to begin eating its own children. If the constitutional reforms are unpopular within the Revolutionary movement itself then perhaps Chavez is trying to push them too fast. It can't be right to be calling people who have loyally served the Revolution traitors. That was the technique of Stalin towards men like Bukharin, etc. Not that Chavez is in any way comparable to Stalin. But this is a very dangerous road to start down.
Chavez should remember the first part of the slogan from Fidel: "Inside the revolution, everything; oustide the revolution nothing." The first part of that slogan means that among the community of those who believe in socialism and the revolution, there must be internal debate and nothing should be out of bounds.
What’s more, they’ve always looked with scorn upon the popular neighborhoods where 80-percent of the population lives, describing them as the ultimate bastions of hell, of vice, of delinquency, and calling for an iron fist against their inhabitants...
Eugene Weixel | Homepage | 11.11.07 - 12:05 pm | #
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After NYPD Detectives shot an African immigrant 43 times mainly in the back as he reached for his wallet to give them his identification the media started calling the Bronx a "killing zone" which of course sounds as though either killing is so ordinary there that no one there minds it, or it is a free fire zone for crime fighting cops (or both). SR and LeChuck let me make a confession. I'm absolutely in favor of shutting such ugly sewers of genocidal ideation down.
Eugene Weixel | Homepage | 11.11.07 - 11:37 am | #
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Thank you Eugene for that information on the murky "transparency" guys. I haven't see their data, but if by any chance they rank Mexico as less corrupt than Venezuela, I would know immediately that they are simply manipulating their data or just making it up. Corruption in Mexico is systemic and without it there would be no State. In other words, corruption there is not a defect or a deviation from the norm, but the very organizing principle of the whole damn thing. There is no way in this world that Venezuela would be more corrupt than Mexico...or China for that matter.
Dear Triple Ls**
So typical ...Moyhabin wants to discuss Mexico and Wexler wants to impeach Transparency International. When someone post a strong point counter to a Tripe Ls hard held viewpoint one of three things happens..
1. The subject is ignored.
2. The subject is diverted to some other topic.
3. The poster is belittled.
None of you want to discuss the corruption happening in Venezuela. Show me where Moises Naim is wrong. Defend Chavez's ethics, please. Methinks you have a weak case.
*Triple Ls means loonie left liberals
The revolution is too threatened and beset with danger to begin eating its own children.
----------------------------
This is greatly exaggerated Hector. Baduel and Tascon have not been sent to a concentration camp, or to jail, or into exile. They remain entirely free and with complete autonomy to decide the course of their poltical future. Baduel came out swinging against the reform, calling it "a coup"; and Tascon expressed his support for him. So it's quite simple: they decided to step outside the boundaries of the revolution, not simply breaking ranks with it, but launching (Baduel) into the most egregious accusations. That is not a correct way to proceed if you wish to remain within the process. One's criticism ought to be vented first and foremost internally, and in a cordial, constructive and wise manner. If needed, you should circulate a document with very well developed concepts and positive and constructive suggestions. This is what anyone with any sense of loyalty and intelligent priorities would have done. But we all know what Baduel did. It was really disgraceful and shameful. He proceeded without warning to express a frontal and brutal onslaught on the reform process before a mediatic circus; declared himself for some sort of absurd "Nordic socialism"; and to add insult to injury, he did it at a very critical juncture when the revolution is being ferociously attacked from all quarters. Additionally, Baduel indulged in all this unacceptable behavior after he had declared UNCONDITIONAL support for the reform...only 18 days prior to his defection!
I don't consider the guy a traitor, for I never considered him a true revolutionary in the first place. I'm glad he's a goner.
When someone post a strong point counter to a Tripe Ls hard held viewpoint one of three things happens..
-------------------------------
Oh, come on, don't flatter yourself. Where is the so-called strong point? I have seen none, especially from you John. You appear to be also an honorary member of the one liners pedestrian society.
"None of you want to discuss the corruption happening in Venezuela. "
What corruption? The 800k suitcase incident? Or is that all their is?
"Show me where Moises Naim is wrong."
I think you have this a little backwards. He is making assertions so he should provide the evidence. And he provides none, save some unnamed Dutch police official who we are supposed to just take his word for really exists?
Now, the corruption that resulted when Moises Naim and his friends were in the government was much more obvious:
http://oilwars.blogspot.com/2005...d-old-
days.html
You are gullible, Dan. We all know who had the guns and who didn't.
The revolution is too threatened and beset with danger to begin eating its own children. If the constitutional reforms are unpopular within the Revolutionary movement itself then perhaps Chavez is trying to push them too fast.
I think the opposite also could be true. Moving to slow will threat the revolution from below. This could be much more dangerous than the current situation where the right-wing wing of chavismo droping off.
""Inside the revolution, everything; oustide the revolution nothing.""
In Venezuela they have just the opposite of this. In the society as a whole there is complete freedom - you can say and do pretty much anything you want.
But INSIDE the policital movements there is no democracy. In Chavismo it does pretty much seem to be Chavez's way or the highway. That has been pretty clear for a while and Baduel and Tason are only the most recent manifestations of it.
This is a big problem and weakens this movement tremendously. How can it be changed? I don't know. After all it would depend on Chavez to change it in that political movement and he doesn't seem to be inclined to do so.
Anways, I disagree with Fidels quote. There needs to be freedom BOTH inside the political movements and in the society as a whole. Though it is clear if you aren't going to have both it is better to have the current VEnezuelan situation than the current Cuban situation.
"We all know who had the guns and who didn't."
Yup, you all know what really happened - the actual video be damned.
No, the actual photos of Chavistas in the building with guns be damned. I stand by the statement that you are gullible. Facists with guns. And you're on their side?
No Scott I am not on the side of anyone who is going around with guns shooting at innocent people.
Are you on the side of people attacking a building, stoning it, and trying to set it on fire?
Good point - so why are some saying it was Chavistas who burned a bus? ANd how would that justify a mob attacking people in a building?
ow | Homepage | 11.11.07 - 11:43 am | #
Probably because the bus brought opposition students, and that the only one that got caught by university security "was rescued" in a very similar fashion (motorized, armed and hooded machomens) to the social working school, makes more sense, at least to me, than to think they burned their own bus to cause the later chaos, though it's also possible.
I don't think anything justifies a mob attacking the building, but neither does carrying the large ammount of guns, and firing them (some of them not to the air) to attempt a rescue opperation, lots of severe mistakes were made from both sides, both of them should be punished, most media focus on the mistakes of only one side, including you OW.
OW,
Unfortunately people in Venezuela has learned that they need gas masks because they can get gassed by the Goverment.
The police systematically start gassing protesters in opposition marches, so I know of many people that have bought gas masks and bring it to marches...that is the sad state of affairs in Venezuela.
So according to you the unarmed students coming from the march were attacking the armed thugs covering their face and entering the UCV in motorcycles?
Come on guys!
That's too much.
"I don't think anything justifies a mob attacking the building, but neither does carrying the large ammount of guns, and firing them (some of them not to the air) to attempt a rescue opperation, lots of severe mistakes were made from both sides, both of them should be punished, most media focus on the mistakes of only one side, including you OW."
I agree completely (save the very last clause ). There was probably fault on both sides here just as there often has been.
One person who should be in very hot water over this is the campus security director. For this to be going on with them no-where to be seen is unacceptable. And if they can't even effectively maintain order on their own campus it doesn't say much for their autonomy (which is a very assenine thing to begin with).
Bruni:
Here is a handy guide for you - if you are getting gassed you are probably somewhere you shouldn't be or doing something that you shouldn't be doing (like throwing stones at a building and trying to set it on fire).
Yesterday there was a very big rally - did anyone get gassed or hurt? Not to my knowledge. Many other opposition rallies have been perfectly peacefull too.
So you got it OW...
IT'S ALL ABOUT THE AUTONOMY!
The goverment is sending its thugs to have an excuse to intervene the UCV.
It has happened before with different goverment....ALL the Presidents of Venezuela have wanted to remove the autonomy...and you know what? THE UCV always stood up.
You know why?
Because the Universities are the only strong institutions that there are, and there have been in Venezuela.
http://cuentosintrascendentes.bl...-captulo-
5.html
I see Bruni - did someone "send" the students in this video trying to burn down one of the buildings on their own campus?
And where was campus security while all this was happening?
The autonomy discussion is seperate from these events but as I've said before it should be done away with. Why should a university be "autonomous" when it is paid for with public funds? Society pays for it, society has a big interest in making sure it functions properly, so society should be able to control it.
The UCV should no more have autonomy than PDVSA should have had autonomy.
Cuban medicine
Salud...
http://www.saludthefilm.net/ns/i...t/ns/
index.html
Moyhabin,
Baduel helped save the President's life back in 2002, and halped preserve the Revolution. He had been a stalwart and loyal servant of the revolution. That he chooses to disagree with one aspect of the way Chavez is running things, doesn't mean that he is a counter-revolutionary. as you note yourself he only changed his mind within the last 18 days. I would think that his history of support for the revolution and personal loyalty to Chavez would give him some extra freedom to be critical of the reform. If there is anyone who can't be tarred as a counter revolutionary, it's these two.
I don't agree with his 'Nordic socialism', but isn't the important thing that he support some kind of socialism, whether it be Nordic, Cuban, Yugoslavian or whatever. The big division in Venezuela is between those who support capitalism and those who support socialism, full stop. We shouldn't be quibbling about exactly what kind of socialism. We need the revolution to have as broad support as possible, which means that we can't be kicking out loyal revolutionaries just for saying something we don't agree with.
There needs to be some measure of internal democracy within the revolution. The only battle line in Venezuela should be between the hard line counterrevolutionaries, and everyone else.
Well, I see from your article you think PDVSA should have had autonomy too ?!?!?!?!? Jeeze. If everyone is going to be "autonomous" why even have elections?
Anyways, it is the job of universities to educate people. And it is important that they do that and not be used for other purposes and it is also important that they serve as a place for the free exchange of ideas. But they don't need "autonomy" to do that.
Berkley, University of Illinois C.U., Michigan, Wisconsin, University of Texas, and on and on are all great institutions that the UCV could never hold a candle to. Yet they have no autonomy. Go around those campuses and ask people about "autonomy" and you'll probably just get blank stares.
In fact, it is more likely that they are great institutions because they are ACCOUNTABLE. And the UCV's mediocrity probably owes much to by virtue of its "autonomy" it isn't accountable to anyone which allows both its students and faculty to waste a lot of time and money and not do much of anything.
Wow, you guys are amazing. 10.000 miles away an you know the facts better than us. Great.
And with respect of the autonomy, that autonomy was precisely what allowed the left to surge in Venezuela (seems that your girlfriend didn't tell you). Besides, being a foreigner (no matter what does the venezuelan embassy pays you), you don't have a word in our universities destiny
Ah, about "Nordic Socialism." The oligarchs shoud than their lucky stars that's not what they have to contend with. "Nordic Socialism" was mainly about taxing, taxing and then taxing again the incomes of the rich. We even had it once in the USA! The rich were taxed at up to 90 percent, public housing was being built, municipal and county hospitals did provide a level of care for the indigent without resources, the real purchasing power of a welfare check was much higher than that of around 1/3 those who work for a living today, it goes on and on...
So far, at least, under XXI century socialism they are free to buy and sell property, invest in luxury automobiles, play the currency spreads, come and go into and out of Venezuela as they please... I often wonder just what the hell it is they are not happy about? Would they really want taxes up to 90 percent in the highest brackets? With a very very muscular collection mechanism backed up by high security prisons? That's Nordic Socialism!
Baduel helped save the President's life back in 2002, and halped preserve the Revolution.
--------------------------------
He didn't have any other choice. If he had remained on the margins, he would have been eventually eviscerated too. He acted mainly out of self-interest, the same way he is doing it right now. The sole unsung heroes during those ominous hours, were the poor and common people that put their lives on the line to save Chavez and the revolution. They acted generously, courageously and with very little to gain at a strictly personal level.
The rest of your post I will address later Hector. Now I have to run.
"10.000 miles away an you know the facts better than us"
Yes, the miracle of YouTube - it is great isn't it?
"And with respect of the autonomy, that autonomy was precisely what allowed the left to surge in Venezuela (seems that your girlfriend didn't tell you). "
No she dind't. Neither did my handlers. That is why I have a comments section so brilliant people like you can tell me that Chavismo arose out of the universities rather than the military and barrios as I had always thought. Thanks for setting me straight.
SR this is right up your alley. Biofuels will kill more people than the iraq war. And who is talking about it? Cuba's news agency for one, that's who. Also the Guradian Newspaper, often accused of leftism and the anti-s word. Who are the silent accomplices? Almost the entire global media and almost all the governments of the world.
http://www.plenglish.com/article...3})&
language=EN
The only battle line in Venezuela should be between the hard line counterrevolutionaries, and everyone else.
Hector | 11.11.07 - 4:32 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Yes, but when a public figure is accusing the president of launching a coup, isn't he then placing himself outside of one of those camps? Whose fault is that? There is a time and a place for everything, including criticism and debate. There also is a way to do it and a way not to do it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/1...tml?
ref=opinion
Frank Rich, of the New York Times, notes that the US is now under a coupster regime.
Eugene, considering the inputs for biofuels are not ecologically sustainable, I am very, very skeptical.
Especially, the fact that selling biofuels for the proligate US from the South will see thousands of miles of pristine destroyed--this is a no-brainer.
Kudos to Fidel and Chavez for already pointing this out--and damn the corporate media for playing along with this abusurdity. You can't call the oligarch, corporate media 'journalistic' in any sense of the imagination.
Yes, I would shut oligarch media down--or, at least only allow the oligarchs the size of media that is comenserate with their percentage of the population. But given that they have had the franchise for decades--closing them is a delicate issue. When you have indoctrinated the middle classes to the point that they see corporate media as 'freedom of speech' I'd say that the left-democrats have alot of work to do.
I definately disagree with OW (and Chomsky) that, in the case of Venezuela, state media is much, much, more a reflection of the democratic will of the people than is Globovision.
There are nuances that are particular in any situation, but suffice to say that the rich should not be able to have more 'free expression' than the rest of the population.
Without corporate media, the odious system of capitalism would not be capable of hearding and manipulating the masses (ie wage-slaves).
Organize citizen militias, communal councils--and then start making Venezuela truely democratic--not the sad, denuded caricature of 'democracy' that the corporate oligarch engages in countries aligned with US imperialism.
The bottom-line is that the structure of economics and politics need to be democratized and socialized and the people have to be prepared to violently defend the more democratic structure.
If you are not down with these basics, you are counter revolutionary, your a tool of the oligarchs and enjoy being priviledged by your participation in on-going oppression.
Sorry for barging in – I regulary read/enjoy this blog – and would like to comment on several interesting issues that have been brought up through this meandering thread. Like some of the non-Venezuelans on this blog, I have spent a lot of time there, including several extended stints for graduate work, but am not Venezuelan and currently do not live in Venezuela.
It has been difficult to piece together a coherent picture from the outside looking at the UCV/TSJ events last week from a northern perspective – I have read opposition and pro-revolution reports, talked to friends in Venezuela, and watched a good hour’s worth of unedited video footage shot by community journalists. Here is the abbreviated version of how I interpret events:
A large gathering of opposition-aligned students from various private universities in Venezuela returned to the UCV from a march to the TSJ earlier that day. A much smaller group of Bolivarian students, known to attend the School of Social Work, were at the school, some were postering, and there was an organized discussion on constitutional reforms. The opposition students (this is where I’m unclear on how they knew the Bolivarian students were in that particular building, or is it just a general association they make) surround the building – appearing to be well-organized and equipped (high-end gas masks, black ski masks, etc.). Opposition students attack the building with stones, set lots of stuff on fire, (which may or may not include a bus – I’m still not clear on that one – more on that later), screamed a lot, and several shots are fired. In video footage, you can clearly see the Bolivarian students inside the building in a state of panic. According to interviews with some of these students, they were on their cell phones calling for help (um, I can’t quite understand why campus security on this autonomous university campus didn’t immediately intervene?? Seems kind of irresponsible ….). One of those calls was to RNV or VTV – and they were put on the air live. Again, my own interpretation – a group of people (associated or not) decided to take things into their own hands, since clearly nobody was responding to the seriousness of the situation (for an entire hour) – and went to the university to liberate the Bolivarian students. Not sure about the next part – motorcycles and guns, ski masks, testosterone, and so much speculation and false reporting (including the AP picture carried by just about every mainstream media outlet in the world). Cleary – people had guns – I’m even willing to believe they were the ones there to help get the Bolivarian students to safety (not saying I approve, by they clearly didn’t feel there was an alternative). I’m not condoning shooting or even carrying arms, but they would have had to feel provoked and threatened to shoot in a crowd. As many have pointed out previously on this blog – what would revolutionary supporters have to gain by shooting people given the i
Hector, Baudel crossed the line. As Moyhabin states--there are many ways that he could have participated 'within' the Bolivarian institutions. However, he chose to attack Chavez as a criminal. Quite rightly he has been seen as aligning himself with counter-revolutionary, oligarchic, players.
Tascon royally fucked up by choosing to align himself with a counter revolutionary.
Both of these men are quintessential opprotuniists .
Good, they have laid thier cards on the table for everyone to see.
Thank Dog that Chavez is not like the corporate Democrats here in the US--the revolution would have been killed long ago, and the vendepatrias would still be running the show.
F' that.
As many have pointed out previously on this blog – what would revolutionary supporters have to gain by shooting people given the incredible support the government has??
As for the bus – a bus that carried opposition students to the TSJ march was parked at UCV, the driver was dragged from the bus (not sure by whom), and the bus was burned (not sure by whom or why). By now this fact is irrelevant because of the initial attacks and the gunshots.
Anybody who was involved in the provocation and the violence should face consequences, but a realistic and truthful rendering of what happened would be helpful from the media! Did anybody read about the two young people (from the National Youth Institute) who were postering in favour of the reforms in Anzoategui this week who were burned w. gasoline by opposition supporters? I only read it in one place, so I can’t account for the authenticity. But there are countless other stories of violence instigated by the opposition-supported students across the country …. Why won’t they engage in a genuine dialogue – particulary when they have been invited to do so many times?
I fully support the growth and democratization of independent, grassroots and community media in Venezuela, and I believe it is thriving. In 2002, I worked with a community cooperative radio station. Around the 11th of April, (a couple of days before, but continuing on through the 14th-15th) we started receiving e-mails from people in Venezuela asking that we please get their story out – that Chavez had not resigned, that he had been kidnapped, that a joint military-oligarchy-catholic church hierarchy-business leaders coup had taken place, etc. We phoned daily and had them pass their cell phone around the marches so we could get testimonials of those that were there and had put everything aside to struggle for what they felt was right. We had several threatening phone calls from local opposition supporters in my city. The video from UCV didn’t come from Globovision ….
Thank you Eugene for reminding us who TI is/is not – I always laugh and/or roll my eyes when I see someone quote TI as a credible and independent (“civil society”) voice.
On Baduel/Tascon – I agree wholeheartedly with Moyhabin and others – this was destined to happen – and history supports it - there are many within the revolution that are not so commited, and they will fall off as positive change continues to emerge. I haven’t actually read/heard anything where Baduel defines his “vision” for Venezuela’s future – does anyone have a source for this? I agree with OW’s observation about the lack of democracy within the political ranks of the revolution, but I also understand the argument for discipline, particulary when faced with such a well-funded and bloodthirsty opposition. I guess time will tell if Baduel/Tascon and others emerge in a new “nordic socialist”party.
PS Fidel wrote a great article about a month ago on biofuels – I’m sure if you google
Boli--of course we cannot prove it, but, any cursory review of US behavior toward Latin America or anywhere in the world would incline me to believe that the US is heavily engaged in efforts to promote terror and destabilzation in Venezuela.
The US engages terror as common practice--this statement is not even subject to dispute given the historical record. These are a group of rapacious oligarchs, and racist extremists that have no problem snuffing out tens of thousands of innocent women and children to achieve favorable political and economic outcomes.
All I can say is that these US sponsored thugs are damned lucky they did not harm Libertad Velasco.
Slave would have had to engage some 'justice' for that
I just pray that I live to see Libertad V. elected president of Venezuela some day. And Slave could be First-man 
Boli:
Good summary. I can't say if it is completely correct but then again maybe no one can.
Clearly university security was negligent. Was that intentional? DOn't know but I wouldn't be surprised - the head of the UCV is a strong opposition supporter.
I agree the guns are totaly crossing a line. But one interesting thing to keep in mind is no-one was killed. Clearly the people who went there didn't go to kill. In the US in 1979 the KKK attacked a small anti-klan rally in Greensboro and had no problem quickly shooting 5 people dead (btw, the KKK members were all aquited at trial). So I think we need to not let the media blow this whole event out of proportion.
Hi SR,
Carlos Ortega is a counterrevolutionary. Carmona is a counterrevolutionary. So is that Sumate lady, the Primero Justicia people, Rosales, Rausseo, the people at Caracas Chronicles, etc. Baduel and Tascon are not counterrevolutionaries. They're just different sort of revolutionary. They underwent great personal cost and sacrifice to serve the revolution as they understood it. Kicking them out of the party cannot be fair to them.
As long as someone does not explicitly favor the return of capitalism and liberalism and imperialism, then they are not a counterrevolutionary. Baduel has said he supports socialism, therefore he is not a counterrevolutionary.
Tascon, of all people! Whatever you think of the much-maligned Tascon list, everyone would agree that if Tascon sinned at all, he sinned by being too MUCH devoted to Chavez, too fanatically loyal, and not devoted enough to the procedures of liberal government. Maybe he didn't sin at all...but certainly he can't be accused of being not loyal enough.
Castro, God bless him, made the mistake of taking a too narrow view of what constitiuted loyalty and he wound up repressing a good number of decent and committed socialists. No doubt he meant well, but he was too paranoid and took too narrow a view. Please tell me that Chavez is not taking the first steps down a similar road.
This is very disturbing. I cheered from the sidelines when the capitalists, the news media, the landowners, the factory owners, the students, the upper class and the old elites were crushed. But for the revolution now to be purging its own children is a terrible sign.
OW, why aren't you drawing more attention to the purge of Baduel and Tascon?
Hector,
I think I can see where you are coming from, and believe me, I do share some of your concerns. However, I'm pretty sure this is not a purge in any way, shape or form. Baduel decided HIMSELF to act in a way that is totally unacceptable. No political organization the world over would accept such defection in times of extreme crisis as being nothing more than benign dissent. It was calculated as to hurt and cause maximum damage possible to the revolution and the process. Baduel purged the revolution out of his worldview and his political practice, and not the other way around. The way he proceeded and the things he said, represent a mean blow against everything progressive we are trying to do in Venezuela since 1998. I'm ready to bet with anyone on this blog or elsewhere, that when everything has been said and done, Baduel will end up aligning himself openly with Rosales, Petkoff, Naim and all the other mummies. does this represent a big loss for us? Absolutelly not. Baduel has began already his descent into oblivion. His personal ambition is taking him down a path that leads to political irrelevance. As people like him abandon the ship, many, many more are coming aboard everyday. Our ranks are swelling with new, young, devoted, vibrant , intelligent, committed, brave and dedicated revolutionaries emerging from schools, universities, factories, fishing communities, indigenous people, slums, the peasantry, etc. They are the future, while Mr. General is now the past. Good riddance indeed!
The Baduel and Tascon situation compared to the Moscow Trials is silly at best. They are leaving the Chavez movement on their own. In revolution even within the revolutionary movement, tentative people are included. During the Russian Revolution Zinoviev and Kamenov opposed it, and Stalin was tentative.
It is not Baduel and Tascon leaving as individuals, it's social democracy again betraying socialism.
"It is not Baduel and Tascon leaving as individuals, it's social democracy again betraying socialism."
I think it is the reverse - socialism betraying social democracy.
But truthfully we can't say it is either. After all there was no discussion of where the movement should go. Chavez decided it, or is deciding it each day as it goes along.
Now the Bolsheviks came up under the repression of Czarist Russia and really did get attacked by others (including the U.S.) shortly after taking power. So their behaviour is understandable, even if not defensible.
But why can't the Venezuelan movement be open and above board with its direction decided by the people who make it up?
Hector, is'nt it interesting that Baudel has so little to offer in the way of ideology or strategy. I don't believe that Baudel is socialist in any sense of the term--he is merely willing to play classes against each other, and to play to role of an accomidationalist. He is not a revolutionary; he is not with the people; he has no body of writing or discourse that expands his credentials as revolutionary. All this is very pretinent given the context of his public statements.
Maybe I am reaching, but he appears as traitor.
But that's just slavel intuition talking
I'm back in the Empire (early) and pissed off that i'm not back in Caracas for the events of the past few days (especially since I lived about 6 blocks from UCV).
Folks in Venezuela: One of the things i've been fascinated by in the BoRev has been the division between the Social Democrats (the Oil Wars set, who want a revolution without a revolution...sorry, i love your blog, but...) and the revolutionaries--the PODEMOS vs. Lina Ron sort of thing. So the question is whether or not these groups have issued any statements in the aftermath of events at UCV one way or the other...I'm thinking the grassroots guerilla Chavistas who might have been the 'masked men on motorcycles' the oppos are so fond of citing.
As so many have said, a gov't attack on the escuáliditos just doesn't make any sense, and when the 'marigoldies' and their PJ/NED masters point so emphatically to 'gov't repression' we should all be nervous, but i'm wondering if the potentially-implicated parties have responded?
Cheers--
But why can't the Venezuelan movement be open and above board with its direction decided by the people who make it up?
ow | Homepage | 11.11.07 - 9:30 pm | #
Easy, because the oligarchs and the capitalist managerial class control the means of ideology reproduction/manipulation.
Imperialism makes it impossile to be 'above the board' be cause the US empire is not 'above the board' at all.
More than this, developing truely democratic--or, far more democratic--structure of nationalism, economics, and politics/culture 'evolves' an cannot be referred to through text-book procedures. This would be to fit nascent Bolivarian socialism in a procrustean straight-jacket, and imperialism/capaitalism could regain hegemony.
The masses in any society are manipulated and herded by the oligarchs through media, and they are rendered relatively powerless in the context of politics. This is not 'open and fair'--it is disguised, hegemonic, and practical in the view of ruling classes.
I would refer all of the readers to go to
http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/c...ries/venezuela/
to see pictures of Chavistas INSIDE the building shooting out at students BEFORE the so-called rescue operation. They were wearing black ski masks and shooting guns at unarmed students. Some pro-Chavez writers are trying to turn this around but it was Chavistas shooting at students that caused them to turn on the building with stones and whatnot. The truth is out there. This one video does not tell the whole story. Please think for yourselves.
"Economic crisis: It won’t be over by Christmas".
"In capitalism, there are no guarantees for the working class"...
http://tinyurl.com/29lfhp
JSB, is that really you? I hope this isn't a troll I'm responding to but
on that site there are NO such pictures. Lost of pictures of other things and again blaming A11 2002 on Chavistas (someone has cajones) but no pictures of people shooting from inside the social work building.
But you did get me to laugh with this:
"Some pro-Chavez writers are trying to turn this around but it was Chavistas shooting at students that caused them to turn on the building with stones and whatnot."
Sure Scott, someone is shooting at you with guns from a building and what do you do - you run to the building and throw rocks at it (and when you don't have a rock to throw you just kind of mill around out front so as to make an easier target!!!!!!!!). Well, if that would be your reaction what can I say - you have a lot more balls than 99.999999999999999% of people.
Truthfully though I don't think your average opposition supporter, who used to dive under cars for cover if they even heard a firecracker, would be doing that if they were really getting shot at.
"Internacionalismo es la publicación semestral de la CCI en Venezuela"...
http://tinyurl.com/yup3eg
"if they were really getting shot at."
Yes, it was me commenting. And you say "if" when there are pictures of hooded men shooting? "if"?
You need to look further. You yourself admitted you hadn't payed attention to this matter until this particular post. Do some more research and you'll find plenty of evidence.
http://ap.google.com/media/ALeqM...O34sZirg?
size=s
http://ap.google.com/media/ALeqM...SKgabRoQ?
size=m
You did hear that there were ACTUAL students INJURED from gunfire, no? I guess they didn't duck down underneath cars fast enough.
http://ap.google.com/media/ALeqM...arzvrU0w?
size=m
http://afp.google.com/media/ALeq...FjWOhzVA?
size=m
If...if...if...that's the word of a person who believes what he WANTS to believe.
Were there opposition students injured by gunfire? Yes.
Were their Chavistas firing from within the building out towards students? Yes.
Were opposition students armed with guns? No.
Dan, you're on the wrong side of this one, my friend.
I'm sorry, those individual links don't work. All the images are compiled in google news.
http://news.google.com/news?hl=e...F-8&sa=N&
tab=wn
You'll see the students shooting from inside the building:
http://ap.google.com/article/
ALe...UpOsnwD8SPCI6G0
and students injured from gunshot wounds:
http://afp.google.com/article/
AL...da81iBjqxF1J8mg
The links below are to a story about recently-exposed provocateurs at an international political meeting outside Ottawa, Canada. Two points here – one (for jsb) the use of provocateurs is not relegated to state/city/federal policy or military. Obviously, if it’s the same class that invented and regular uses the concept, it is plausible that the Venezuelan opposition utilizes some of the same tactics in its destabilization efforts (which the student protests are a part of). I’m sure revolutionaries use the same tactics on occasion, but in this case, as OW and others point out – how does that make one shred of sense in this case? Two, notice how in the provocateur case below, the mainstream media sucked it up and put out a more balanced story AFTER video footage was made broadly public (mostly through the internet, and eventually through most media). I would like to see some of this approach to the media’s reaction taken in Venezuela.
http://www.yayacanada.com/
spp_pr...ss_release.html
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2...lo.html?
ref=rss
I don’t recall seeing anyone post here on the role of Heinz Dieterich in Baduel’s evolution? I understand he has been advising him for some time (made me want to burn my Dieterich books). Surely we can’t call Dieterich a fascist, or even nordic “socialist”?
"You did hear that there were ACTUAL students INJURED from gunfire, no?"
How many? A grand total of 2 if my math is correct. Of 9 who went to hospitals 7 were for asthma attacks and anxiety. So WHOEVER was shooting a) didn't kill anyone and b) only injured 2 people.
Yes, those pictures you now link to show people in the building with guns. Fine. But a couple of points bear noting:
a) they were trapped in a building - they were not outside trying to chase anyone down. Had campus security shown up and done its job this probably could have ended without any guns being used. Further, if the building had simply been left alone rather than attacked what would have happened? Would there have been any shooting at all? Quite possibly not.
b) where was campus security while all this was going on? I note no-one even tries to answer that question (could it be because the opposition runs the UCV). In the video you see lots of photographers there taking pictures. How did all the news agencies no to show up and yet security doesn't realize this is going on??????
No Scott I am not buying the BS line that opposition students are all innocent victims here. Unfortunately for the opposition's line some of the Chavistas had cameras too.
Boli, yes, I have seen the video from Canada with the police provacatuers. They caught them and exposed them. The goal was to discredit anit-capitalist protesters.
Is there any doubt that the Venezuelan rightwing work with the US to destablize? Only in the minds of people that don't know the US history in the world--or refuse to see.
Ask yourself--who benefits and who pays when violent actions that destablize happen.
The US and oligarchs configure populations, the masses, soley for their labor power--and they configure a nation's natural resources similarly. They have no ethics and they create a hell-hole where they manage to maintain hegemony.
F'that. Crapitalism sucks--friends don't let friends be exploited by crapitalist herd-masters.
We got an oligarch plow and plently of new yokes for these jokers. The fresh air will do them good.
jsb | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 7:42 am | #
-----------------------------------
OK. You made your point numerous times. We all have. We are not going to convince you and viceversa. So why keep repeating ourselves ad-nauseum?
BTW, recent polls indicate a rapid rise in favorable public opinions for the reforms. A divided and stupid opposition, resorting to chaos and violence keeps on digging its grave with its own teeth. Yes, they are advancing...but one feet deeper into the ground!
The majority of the people in Venezuela are resoning more or less like this: I have seen improvement in my life conditions over the past few years; I see the country emerging and prospering despite some inevitable difficulties; there are no signs of dictatorship and I enjoy full freedom, greater now in fact than ever before; this government has brought about these benefits; this government is proposing reforms that will make its work easier and help consolidate what has been achieved; I want live in peace and stability; the opposition is the main culprit of the violence and insecurity in our streets; thus, if I had any doubts, now I know I will support the government again.
Ergo, the reforms will pass with flying colors to the amazement of most of world public opinion, intensely brainwashed by the transnational corporate media.
Meanwhile...the US economy is rapidly unraveling.
Re: Corruption in Venezuela
Just as I had predicted...Moyhabin attempts to belittle me and OW sidesteps the present day problem of corruption in Venezuela.
Moy,
I don't know if you know but there was a very famous incident in the US (Greensboro N.C. to be exact) where there was a clash between KKK and some communist party people at a rally. The communists banged on the KKK cars with signs. The KKK members then got out, got guns out of their trunks and proceeded to shoot 5 of the communists dead and wounded a bunch of others. The whole thing was well documented and video taped as there were news organizations there.
The case went to trail and all the KKK members were all aquitted based on self-defense.
So, no one at the UCV was killed, fortunately, but if they had been and US "justice" had been applied none of the Chavistas in that building would have been at fault.
"OW sidesteps the present day problem of corruption in Venezuela."
No I asked you to present evidence, as you are the one making the assertion, and you presented none. So it looks like you are making spurious claims you can't back up.
Re: Corruption in Venezuela
Just as I had predicted...Moyhabin attempts to belittle me and OW sidesteps the present day problem of corruption in Venezuela.
John | 11.12.07 - 10:36 am | #
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------------------------------
Of course there is corruption in Venezuela. Even President Chavez has spoken of it. The problem is how to fight it while respecting human and political rights, labor and civil service laws and due process. Now President Chavez is talking about a revolution within the revolution. John, this might turn out to be something you will be sorry you asked for.
OW reminds us "The communists banged on the KKK cars with signs. The KKK members then got out, got guns out of their trunks and proceeded to shoot 5 of the communists dead and wounded a bunch of others. The whole thing was well documented and video taped as there were news organizations there.
The case went to trail and all the KKK members were all aquitted based on self-defense."
The dead and injured were members of the now defunct and or underground Maoist organization called Communist Workers Party, which actually up to that point was having a modicum of success. The shooters were an amalgm of KKK and American Nazi Party members. In pretrial questioning jurors stated that the shooters were patriots.
When USAmericans preach to others they should be reminded of this murder and aquital. Thanks for doing that OW.
Moyhabin attempts to belittle me
---------------------------
No John, that is not fair. You belittle yourself when you posted that infantile comment on the three L's. I was simply responding in kind. But back to the coruption thing. I will just say this: there are basically three ways one can object to a certain information. 1. One can object to the legitimacy of the data's source; 2. One can object to the data itself; 3. Or one can object to the analyzis of the data. Well, I'm making ALL THREE of those OBJECTIONS. Not in order to deny that there is a severe problem of corruption in Venezuela, but to put in question its putative root causes, its genesis and history, and the international ranking of Venezuela in this regard.
So, no one at the UCV was killed, fortunately, but if they had been and US "justice" had been applied none of the Chavistas in that building would have been at fault.
ow | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 10:38 am | #
----------------------------
Interesting. Never heard of this case.
Eugene,
Yes, I remember that case very well, I can't forget it. It was blood chilling and I cringe whenever I see video of it. The KKK scumbags went right up to people and shot them in cold blood.
Most of those killed were physicians who worked with coal miners fighting against black lung disease. A real, real tragedy and a real travesty of justice.
"So WHOEVER was shooting a) didn't kill anyone "
Yes, thank God. But it was Chavistas who shot these two people.
"if the building had simply been left alone rather than attacked what would have happened? Would there have been any shooting at all?"
You have it backwards. Had there been no shooting, which came first, there would have been no attack on the building. Chavistas shot at students. Fact. I'm done with this topic until you can prove to me that the opposition were firing weapons.
OK John - name people who have acted in a crrupt fashion. Name them and the amounts of money they have stolen with links to back it up.
If you cannot do this then just take a hike and stop wasting our time.
"Had there been no shooting, which came first, there would have been no attack on the building. "
Really, where is your evidence for that??????
Lets see, Chavistas were shooting at people so the opposition supporters chased them (with no weapons themselves) and cornered them in a building and that is why the building was attacked!?!?!?!?
Does that make sense to you? Does that square with the video where we see people standing around outside of the building apparently completely unafraid of being shot?
You are asking us to believe things you give no evidence for, which don't make sense, and which don't seem to square with the video we have here. So yeah, if I were you I would want to stop discussing this too.
Explain the pictures of the Chavistas in the doorway only one foot from opposition students with a gun pointed at them. It doesn't have to make sense to me because it was caught on film by dozens of independent media. I'll talk about it all day long. All you have is this one video. Got anything else to back up what you're saying? Let's continue. Please. Show me what you have. So far, you seem to be supportive of armed fascists against unarmed students.
http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/m.../Untitled-
1.jpg
In this video, you can see opposition students taking cover in a grove of trees.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8zvn9lA0Dpg
Seems the chavistas were waiting in the buildings for the students to get back from the march and began firing on them. It was an ambush.
Gee, Dan. In this video, students are running away from gun shots. Surely THAT makes "sense" to you.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-lu123LKhIA
By the way, you got anything else to back up your false slander against the unarmed opposition students besides the one video in this post?
Help stop fascist aggression against unarmed students. Tell the truth about what happened that day.
Other readers of this blog, many who may not comment, think for yourselves. Seek out additional information. OW does not tell the whole story. Only half truths.
"Explain the pictures of the Chavistas in the doorway only one foot from opposition students with a gun pointed at them"
Ahh, just taking a stab at it but the guy was maybe trying to stop people who were clearly trying to break into the building (and were clearly in the video battering at doors just trying to do that). Now using guns is a huge escallation and I'm not really defending that. But I also don't know the circumstances. If they had called security and security didn't come then yeah they had a right to stop people from breaking into the building to harm them. Again, one of the biggest shortcomings here was by campus security which you don't want to mention presumeably because it is the opposition that controls it and here therefore didn't do their job.
"All you have is this one video."
Yes, we have this video that shows the social work building under siege by opposition supporters who quite clearly are not afraid of anything. You have yet to address that. Are you defending that? Do you think even if their bus was burned or something happened before you are supposed to be able to do what they did??? You just completely ignore this video because it shows something you don't want to see.
"You have yet to address that."
I have addressed it. Armed men shot at unarmed, peaceful students as they were returning from a peaceful protest march.
You can go on tangets if you'd like, but it'll never change the FACT that armed thugs, shot at unarmed students PROVOKING an incident.
I don't want to keep spamming your blog with videos to prove my point. I do have some work to do. But when you present some factual piece of evidence that substantiates the fantasy that you are promoting, post it here and I will respond in due time.
"By the way, you got anything else to back up your false slander against the unarmed opposition students besides the one video in this post?"
Sure keep ignoring it. That'll work.
Also, shots were fired. People had guns. That is not in dispute. But the question is when were shots fired? Under what circumstances?
You keep saying the students were "unarmed". I don't know, maybe they were maybe they weren't. But we can clearly see from the video that a) they were prepared for a fight wearing gas masks and ski masks b) they were attacking a buildling by throwing things at it c) they were attempting to set it on fire and d) they were trying to forceably enter the building. Oh, and almost forgot, they clearly weren't getting shot at while they were doing most of that.
Now I don't know about other places but I do know that in the country YOU live in if someone was doing that to you and you had a gun and shot them you would almost certainly not be convicted of any crime because it would be considered self-defense.
And while I don't know all of what happened before - ie who burned what bus or who attacked who first I can very clearly see from this video that in this instance the opposition students are being the agressors and carrying the fight to the Chavistas, not the other way around. If the opposition students didn't want a confrantation all they had to do is walk a way - or at least get security there. But they didn't. They were attacking people.
That is indefensible behaviour and that is probably why you keep avoiding all these facts.
Hey, ow, do you know who
Jose Feliz Valera
is?
It's the thug, sorry, student, caught on camera with a gun in his hand, and on a Venezolana de Television interview, expounding on his peaceful activities (with a gun in hand? but we did not know that, or did we?) on that day.
Perhaps you would care to show us an opposition student leader caught wielding firearms in a peaceful demonstration. If we are to believe your innuendo on this...
Here's one last video that everyone should watch:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oq26JjUfde4
The blood must be fake. Probably fake CIA blood, no Dan? Chavistas drew the blood.
Ow, shameless post.
What the fuck do poor "peaceful Boliviarian students" do with guns and shooting at people?
How can you compete between guns and Molotovs?
You lost it, man...facts? Your blog has nothing to do with facts anymore. Take a look at Devil's Excrement report on what happened at the UCV.
Else, YOU are also becoming a criminal because you are distorting the information.
JSB, just was real convincing, NOT. It didnt' show anyone shooting anything - just confusion at some location away from where events were happening.
Perhaps only the hospital records and the bullets removed from unarmed students will convince you...
I looked there and I didn't see any accounting for what happened at the social work building - in fact he barely mentioned it. He also avoids the subject of what the UCV security was doing at the time.
But maybe you Kepler and even Lorenzo could try this in Belgium and Italy and see what happens. I'd love to see a video tape of that.
BTW, Kepler, you are ok with throwing rocks at people and setting buildings on fire?!?!?!?!?!?
"How can you compete between guns and Molotovs?"
So molotovs are ok? you'd be fine in a building being set on fire by them?
Kepler wants to know
What the fuck do poor "peaceful Boliviarian students" do with guns and shooting at people?
They defend themselves.
And now you Chavistas are shooting at the police?
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper...0/
breaking3.htm
Really, Chavistas should start reading Ghandi, MLK even. The gun is not the solution. Use your minds.
As to people coming across this site, think for yourselves. This post does not tell the whole story. Seek more information.
Yes, everyone listed to the impartial JBS seek more information. Goto FOX news, NBC, Univision. They will show you the truth. It was the Chavistas fault. It always is.
Your toilet is clogged? Chavistas.
Your girlfriend cheated on you? Chavistas.
Twin towers were knocked down? Well it was the Chavistas.
J
SB your something else.
Correction:
Yes, everyone listen to JSB....
A gunman shot and wounded four Venezuelan police officers and a bystander at a student demonstration yesterday in an Andean city in an escalation of violence at protests against President Hugo Chavez's plan to scrap term limits.
---------------------------
This is the information JSB has linked us to. Man, you are either a moron or you don't even read your own links. Who do you think shot those policemen during that anti-reform demonstration?
Else, YOU are also becoming a criminal because you are distorting the information.
Kepler | 11.12.07 - 1:28 pm | #
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The Leper has just declared you an undesirable OW, on YOUR own blog!
Hahahahahahaha
Moy, the irony is even though there are more comments it is lonelier than ever for this blogger. I am universely despised by both sides on my own blog 
But I don't care because I know that I am right and JSB, Kepler, Avila, Slave Revolt, Anonymous, Moyhabin Eugene and the rest are all wrong.
Its not easy being a non-extremist in such a polarized situation as Venezuela but I feel I am up to the challenge.
BTW, JSB, yes people should always check as many sources as possible. Absolutely. I would be the first to say that anyone who gets their information on Venezuela only from this blog is making a big mistake.
Unfortunately, I made the mistake in reverse. I got lazy and just kind of accepted the opposition version (or mass media version) of events without really looking into them. And of course when you do something stupid like that you get made a fool of because the opposition and mass media can always be counted on to lie - either directly or through ommission.
They got me this time. But I'll try not to let it happen again.
"E*Trade Shares Fall; Analyst Says Bankruptcy Possible (Update4)"
"Nov. 12 (Bloomberg) -- E*Trade Financial Corp. lost more than half its market value after the online brokerage forecast a decline in fourth-quarter earnings and a Citigroup Inc. analyst said the company may go bankrupt"...
http://tinyurl.com/2wbzga
"Subprime Losses May Reach $400 Billion, Analysts Say (Update5)".
"Nov. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Losses from the falling value of subprime mortgage assets may reach $300 billion to $400 billion worldwide, Deutsche Bank AG analysts said"...
http://tinyurl.com/2xwum3
I am universely despised by both sides on my own blog
--------------------------------
Don't count me among those who supposedly despise you. Actually, there are many things about you that I admire, although sometimes I deplore your extreme anti-extremism
I don't know how to say this in English, so here it goes in good'ole Spanish: A veces en la vida hay que tomar partido, partido hasta mancharse.
Damn George. $400 billion losses only in the subprime sector. That is truly staggering!
Count me in with Moy, I don't despise you otherwise I wouldn't even bother to comment at all. I have never claimed to have the truth about the events that have ocurred but to take the mainstream as the end all is just ridiculous.
C'mon this a fact based blog, remember?
Thanks, I appreciate the comments.
I was half being serious half joking in the original comment.
Moyhabin
It will be far worse then that, they never tell the truth, they always play it down.
As you say "only in the subprime sector" I hear companies debt is out of the solar system.
"Wall Street playing with more funny money"...
http://tinyurl.com/2uv4nv
"Wall Street's money machine breaks down"...
"The subprime mortgage crisis keeps getting worse-and claiming more victims. A Fortune special report"...
http://tinyurl.com/3bq5cw
"Citi's giant write-downs: What did it know, and when did it know it?"...
http://tinyurl.com/268pwg
"$100 oil: It's not dead yet"...
http://tinyurl.com/3yo2yq
Thanks for all thos great links George. They paint a dire picture. I think the dollar's tumble has been the most dazzling currency flame out in modern times. There are tell-tale signs that the US economy is gradually slipping into a debt-induced coma. Eventually the Fed is going to have to stop trying to "save" Wall Street and let the chips fall where they may before Main Street goes into irreversible respiratory failure.
Moyhabin
Spot on. We didn`t even mention credit card debt.
"Britain becomes 'never, never land' as personal debt runs out of control"...
http://tinyurl.com/q36xc
"To believe that this corruption will simply evaporate when the Bush presidency is done is to underestimate the permanent erosion inflicted over the past six years. What was once shocking and unacceptable in America has now been internalized as the new normal"...
http://tinyurl.com/277f7j
"Britain In Debt As Mortgages Paid By Credit Cards".
Video...
http://tinyurl.com/2fc78d
Yes, Slave can be vituperative at times with my bro OW--but there is NO way I can (up to this point) despise him. No way.
He is the only MF'er that hasn't banned me yet
"He is the only MF'er that hasn't banned me yet "
Considering you have yet to read Wilpert's book you are pushing it. I am strongly considering banning everyone who hasn't read it by the end of December.
Other readers of this blog, many who may not comment, think for yourselves. Seek out additional information. OW does not tell the whole story. Only half truths.
jsb | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 1:14 pm | #
Unlike you, who tell nothing but pure lies.
Snotty, when are you gonna stop drinking the Devil's Koolaid? Inquiring minds want to know. Every so often, you come on here to paint the US as the savior to the world, and scream "Death to anyone who thinks otherwise"--and you want us to believe YOU are on the side of peace just because you support the hypocritical Venezuelan opposition (which has quite the track record for shooting itself in the foot, one way or 'nother)? Fuck off, and take your crapaganda with you.
For Snotty & Co., there's the aptly named Devil's Excrement, a blog which couldn't print a truth if bitten on the ass by it. For the rest of us, there's http://www.venezuelanalysis.com !
And you first effort to ban will mark your departure with Chavez and the Bolivarian project OW.
There is a distinct reason why the oppo blogs ban people--it is in their DNA, their essence, their nature. They are against the people, and for oligarchy and imperialism.
I know you were joking, but I tend to belive that you are better than that--better than even a social democrat.
I am calling a halt with the discussion about corruption in Chavezland. I make my point and won. Enough said.
SR,
I was joking. But I am serious that I am disappointed that only one person has read that EXCELLENT book. It could serve as the basis for important discussion. I would even open up the blog for people to write guest posts based on it. yet they don't read it ...why?
Please, OW, tisk-tisking me as 'bad, lazy' student is kind of condescending.
You obviously aren't familiar with the type of energy and time that farm labor entails. Every minute of daylight is consumed with getting our farm started. On top of this I have a business to run and payroll and bills to meet.
Not everyone makes six figures and has weekends off bro.
Suffice it to say that I am well aware of Wilpert's ideology and the tenor of his views. He is like a Quico--but working toward more democratic, egalitarian ends.
And, I forgot, there was also a non-student in that photo you refer to. Two guys on one side, and another two, one hooded and with a gun, in the other side.
The now-famous hooded Daniel Nuñez who works for the rojo-rojito PDVSA, in Human Resources.
Was he working, perhaps? Or is it his "hobby" he is pursuing? Ah, it must be extracurricular activities, "communiSty service". With a gun in hand...
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