OW go to www.chavezcode.com and you will find this little pearl in the latest post from Eva:
"*Using polling companies contracted by the CIA"
This is what has happened but at least Luis Vicente Leon wants to save some credibility.
In fact the whole thing about Operación Tenaza is covered well by Eva. Let's see of Maduro expels Michael Middleton Steere, the author of the offending memorandum.
Nice thoughts Anonymous. I definately knew that the sudden drop for the 'si' in the past two weeks was a concerted, undemocratic strategy of psyops.
But isn't it interesting how Mr. Quico and Daniel work themselves into a frenzy? Leon definately is playing dirty with this, and, yes, he is trying to save some credibility.
Also interesting how the oligarch, imperial corporate media stoodges run with the bait--so giddy that the 'evil one' might suffer an electoral defeat (so that they can be comforted with the idea that the masses of exploited people can be herded into accepting their fate as a servant class). Capitalist media is simply cynical and indoctrinated, and obseqiuos, to power. They are not well read and seem to have skpped critical thinking in their university studies.
It will be nice to see these pig-fuckers lose again.
But, rest assured, they will never stop trying to characterize any increase in real democracy and egalitarian reform as 'dictatorship. Never.
Newspeak has so thouroughly colonized their necrophilic and anti-humanist world view.
OW, I thought you would get a kick out of these little gems of wisdom from Qucio:
"My feeling is that we don't take a skeptical enough attitude towards the fraud theories. Too often, circumstantial evidence is passed off as iron clad proof. Or the burden of proof is reversed, as though it was up to them to demonstrate non-fraud. Nobody stops to ask "yeah, but" questions about fraud theories. Nobody scrutinizes them critically to see if they really make sense or if they just seem to make sense because they confirm our preexisting feelings about chavismo."
............................................
My first thought when I read this was "who's this 'we' shit?"
Qucio, as rich as he is can simply blot out the sun with his little fucking finger and forget history.
This silver-spooner believes what he wants to believe--and forgets what is convienent to forget.
Must be nice to live in Europe on a bottomless trustfund. But it does make a fucker pretty hypocrtiical and stupid--despiite the veneer of refined intellectual circumspection.
In--fucking-credible.
"My feeling is that we don't take a skeptical enough attitude towards the fraud theories."
Well, it certainly can't be me. I spent hundreds of hours of my free time going over all that non-sense.
There has never been, under Chavez, tampering with the actual vote. Quico I think sees that. Some of the other loonies however...
Interesting how the government hasn't been trumpeting its own polls -- in fact, it's been quietly lulling the opposition into believing they have a chance.
In the final stretch this week, they probably manufactured the Embassy memo to reel in the masses for an "atomic knockout".
I think chavez would prefer 60% with 20% abstencion over 65% with 30% abstencion.
Also the memo serves to keep people in the streets defending their victory.
Slave Revolt, do you think your simplistic expressions of your simple mind require using your kind of language for others to understand you?
'we' shit?" fucking finger make a fucker
In--fucking-credible.
Well, it certainly can't be me. I spent hundreds of hours of my free time going over all that non-sense.
That's a shame my friend.Instead you you should of spent it with your wife and family.It would have been time better spent.
Oh, and have you taken a look at the "alternative" Primero Justicia plan for the country? It is interesting to say the least. I am actually thinking of writing a post analyzing it. I think you could get it on their site. However it appears to be down at the moment. I'll send it to your gmail.
If your interested.
RR, indeed, this memo is likely black psychological operations. When you have real CIA assets with a huge budget working with vendepatiras to do anything possible to bring down the democratically elected government anything is possible.
CNN certainly helped Chavez this week--even if it was an inncent error, it serves these pigfucker propagandists for imperialism right. I wouldn't allow CNN to broadcast their filth.
But, hey, I am for democracy--allow the oligarchs the proportion of the media that reflects their numbers in the population.
The trump card for oligarchy is their control of the flow of information and ability to manufacture quasi-consent.
OW, sure, Quico is brighter than others--but he is not immune to periodic bouts of severe delusion. I have seen it too many times--and tried to reason with the guy.
Indeed, in my opinion you wasted too much time trying to get Quco to be more critical. In the end, he simply developed a resentment toward you for your good faith efforts.
You really can't reason with people that take up the call of the crack-pipe.
Aliva, I just thought it was interesting that Katy made big claims about doubling oil production--totally oblivious to what that might do to the price of crude on the world market.
They want to pump twice as much for half the price--that's real US style capitalism for ya!
These folks are so indoctrinated with mainstream empire's dogma that it is quite pathetic. They would only turn against empire when its actions hurt their wealth--or if Sammie required them to actually fight in his wars of agression. Aside from that, they don't care how many people the empire murders.
Their silence on US agressioin indicts them all.
"but he is not immune to periodic bouts of severe delusion"
You don't have to tell me. Just last week he insisted a very clear english sentence didn't say what it actually said!
On the Primero Justicia document I have it. I haven't read it all but it is interesting.
They claim they actually want to increase oil production 60% - without mentioning OPEC quotas! So we see what their position is there.
There proposals on crime are very interesting for what they DON'T say.
But more on all that some other time.
"RR, indeed, this memo is likely black psychological operations. When you have real CIA assets with a huge budget working with vendepatiras to do anything possible to bring down the democratically elected government anything is possible."
To be clear I think its manufactured out of thin air by the Venezuela government.
It's too obvious. Exactly how I would expect it to be manufactured, disclosed and utilised.
To be clear I think its manufactured out of thin air by the Venezuela government.
This may be a possibility. But looking on Eva's site she states,
The original document in English will be available in the public sphere soon for viewing and authenticating purposes. And it also contains more information than has been revealed here.
So we'll have to wait and see if this authnetic or not.
I should also make it clear that I would probably be in support of such an plan for the reasons aforementioned, to maximise the chavista vote and promote popular precautions.
Just as soon as Eva's translated it, we'll get the 'whole story'. If it was originally in English, why wasnt it released at the same time?
Well, I'd better not get too cocksure. It just seems odd that any memo would go straight to the director of the CIA.
I agree. I am doubtful of its authenticity too.
Why not immediately put in on TV if you have it?
So much has happened in Venezuela over the past few years it is amazing all the stuff you can forget about.
Remember the fake exit polls from the Recall Referendum that supposedly showed Chavez losing by 20 points? I didn't. But thankfully Mark Weisbrot reminds us:
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/...s.com/news/
2916
Its good to be on guard for this kind of stuff because they could try it again.
The memo a fake? Oh, come on guys, this is utter rubbish! It would not only be repugnantly dishonest but absolutelly idiotic. A totally moronic faux-pas. It would place the revolution under a very bad light, both morally and politically. Proving it a fake would be so extremelly easy.
BTW, as I have been saying all along: the reform will pass with an overwhelming majoriy. It's just hard for me to beleive that all those ridiculous oppinion polls being planted in the corporate media by US imperialism and the reactionary opposition may have actually made even a little dent in your perspective on things political in Venezuela.
Well, have to go now. More later if possible.
"The memo a fake? Oh, come on guys, this is utter rubbish! It would not only be repugnantly dishonest but absolutelly idiotic. "
Yeah it would. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Fake bullshit can come from lots of sources.
Where is the memo?
"BTW, as I have been saying all along: the reform will pass with an overwhelming majoriy. It's just hard for me to beleive that all those ridiculous oppinion polls being planted in the corporate media by US imperialism and the reactionary opposition "
So just like all of the sudden we are to believe PODEMOS and Baduel are fascists who just now took off the mask we are to believe polling firms like DATOS which have been highly reliable in the past and favorable to Chavez are now imperialist plants ?!?!?!?!?
I don't know what will happen Sunday - but I'm not running around thinking everything is some big conspiracy either.
PODEMOS and Baduel fascists? That would be indeed childish and vulgar. Again, I'm surprised that you even suggest that I (or anyone else for that matter) would suscribe such grotesque characterization. I cannot tell you exactly why DATOS is so off mark with respect to the current plebiscite, but I can assure you that they are totally wrong, regardless of their true motivations.
Now, is there or not a dreadful track record of criminal conspiracy regarding US interventionism in Venezuela?
Yes, and even you would have to admit it, despite your obvious inclinations to think that US foreign policy is not dominated by a spurious and hidden agenda bent on continual world domination.
So why now, at such crucial juncture, the most dramatic one since 1998 in fact, US imperialism would all of a suddent apply a hands out policy regarding Venezuela? The memo is absolutelly REAL, and we will prove it very soon.
"Again, I'm surprised that you even suggest that I (or anyone else for that matter) would suscribe such grotesque characterization."
Many people in the Venezuelan government have said it. Further, Chavez himself recently said anyone who votes "NO" is a traitor.
This is not serving him nor the country well.
"Now, is there or not a dreadful track record of criminal conspiracy regarding US interventionism in Venezuela? "
Sure. But the main opposition to Chavez has been the old domestic elite and would have happened even if the US didn't exist.
"Yes, and even you would have to admit it, despite your obvious inclinations to think that US foreign policy is not dominated by a spurious and hidden agenda bent on continual world domination. "
Huh, what are you talking about. US foriegn policy is run by the same rich elite that runs everything else in the US. Where have I ever said otherwise.
"So why now, at such crucial juncture,"
What crucial juncture?
"The memo is absolutelly REAL, and we will prove it very soon."
ok, I'll be watching.
Heh, or it goes to show that most "chavistas" were in for the free money and the show, and not to become slaves...
You have a point Moyhabin, but it wouldnt be so easy to prove a fake -- this intercept would be electronic and so we probably wont be seeing any hard evidence.
Moreover, it would be prudent of the US embassy to remain silent, whether it is real or fake.
In the post-vote frenzy, this will be forgotten very quickly. But if it was manufactured, it will no doubt have served its purpose.
RR. The revolution has friends working behind enemy lines, and the reason why I dare say this is because our foes know perfectly well by now that the memo was filtered by someone who appears to be one of them -and they are probably frantically on the prowl trying to determine who and how did such delicate and secret information transpire. Thus, it's in the open now. But don't you worry, there is a lot more coming. We are going to hit the bastards so hard and hurt them so bad, that they will probably have to modify their entire modus operandi while they lick their wounds.
OW. Why is it a such a critical juncture? I don't have time right now to get into such complex issue. But let me just say this: it's a make or break situation for us. We either win or sink into a rapid unraveling. Along with the ominous days during the coup, this is the most decisive and nerve wracking challenge we have ever faced so far. If we win, we will make a leap forward into a path of accelerated change towards greater stability, security and deep structural transformation. If we lose, we may probably be mortally wounded. Our ranks will become demoralized and the fascist core among the opposition (not all of it, but the ones under direct US command) will launch a terminal campaign (already carefully designed) in which they will set Venezuela on fire (literally), destroy the nation, and ultimately prevail amidst the rubble -pretty much as they did in Chile, and are trying to do also in Bolivia as we speak.
Talk to you guys again next Monday.
You don't have to be a fascist to manipulate poll results. And manipulation of poll results has been a staple of US interference in other countries for at least the past decade. Why? Because it's hard to prove, and because most polling firms in any country are willing to give poll sponsors what they want as long as there's money in it. And it doesn't generally take out-and-out rigging to get the results you want. Manipulate the sampling a bit, ask the right questions and you can generally get the percentages you're looking for. Just because a firm generally gives accurate results doesn't mean it's above giving inaccurate ones when paid to do so. Back in 2002 all the pollsters were wildly inaccurate as a matter of course; just because they've given up on that as a general, ongoing approach doesn't mean it's out of the arsenal for specific purposes.
ow, of course this is a critical juncture. Sure, the US may not give a damn about the amendments you don't like. But they sure as hell don't want anyone instituting socialist property rights. They sure as hell aren't gonna be happy about the sections entrenching direct democracy and popular power. And they *really* aren't going to be pleased about a small change few have discussed: Where the 1999 constitution mandated equal treatment for domestic and foreign firms, the new version says foreign firms can't be treated better, but cuts the bit where they have to be treated equally. The amended version leaves the door open for foreign firms to be treated worse than domestic ones. The spectre of expropriation, accelerated land reform in foreign-owned landholdings--that stuff's always been a red flag to the US bull. It was inevitable that this vote would provoke a crisis, or at least a concerted push by the Oppos and the US to create one. Luckily, the government would seem to have anticipated this, likely even considered provoking and crushing it while the government was strong part of the point of introducing the amendments. As you yourself said, now's the time when Chavez has political capital, now's the time to use it.
ok, well lets say it is critical.
Question:
What happens if the SI wins by just a few points? Can a fairly radical change take place based on a small electoral margin?
Moyhabin,
I have some big problems with the constitutional reforms, on the merits. But you have a good point. The important thing is to keep the revolution going. Mistakes can be remedied later.
But i think it's increasingly clear that we are going to lose this referndum. The poll results are terrible. We need to think about how to respond on dec 3rd. Does the revolution need to slow down temporarily? How can Chavez regain the momentum he had last January? I have only questions, no answers.
Hector, don't worry. 61% win, minimum.
OW, the way the game works is that the 'si' only needs one vote more than the 'no'. I thought you knew that.
Sure, wider margins are always better. A closer margin simply means that steps forward will be made more softly.
Do you doubt for a minute that the US isn't plotting to take Chavez out--or manipulate senerios where the government is overthrown or bogged down, etc.?
The elephant in the room that the oppos definately want to hide is on-going US destablization. More, covert ops almost never leave finger-prints--that is the way they are designed.
So, I totally disagree that manufacturing the document is in any way illegit. Such thinking is what will see the Bolivarian project totally smashed. Fight fire with fire. The US are run by fanatics that would snuff out a millions Venezuelan people from the barrios in a snap of a finger to advance its greedy, totalitarian adgenda.
Really, OW, you might read too much of the corporate gatekeepers without the required sense of suspicion. Even the most innocuous articles and sundry topics is so full of debilitating assumptions. This corporate media is deep-coded in a profoundly undemocratic manner, as is the corporate entertainment industry.
Most of what is abominable and anti-democratic about US ideology is on the surface, coded into the core assumptions on the part of the scribes.
When you become a critical thinker in the US, and you educate yourself with a sense of history, you have to go undercover (aka, keep your mouth shut) simply in order to survive when you depend on undemocratic hierarchies in the economic system.
Most people don't have such issues because they share the root assumptions that are pounded into people's ways of thinking 24/7.
Lastly, I cannot totally discount that this document is authentic. If i were a pig-fucker and wanted to destroy the movement toward socialism in Venezuela at this juncture, I would incorporate much the same strategy.
And it it isn't authentic--if it is an example of black-ops--that its simply brilliant--because survival is all about anticipating what more powerful foes that want to destroy you will engage toward that goal.
This is why weak, left-of-center movments fail so often: they play by the rules that illegitimate hierarchies of power allow. This is simply foolish.
What matters is getting the fifty percent plus one vote--standing for elections, allowing different visions to compete in the electoral arena and improving the power and the voice of the majority so that opprotunities for the majority expand.
Anonymous (the pro-oligarch one that posted above), you don't like my language? Fuck it, I am happy that it discomfits you. I will do my best to escape the procrustean linguistic confines that you fakes try to enslave us with.
Make sure you let your children read this blog--that way they can learn to recognize your bullshit, your necessary fictions.
You are living the times of slave revo
Sorry:
You are living in the times of slave revolt. Check your weapons 
Hector, one thing is sure: at this juncture, falling for manipulated polls and fretting about what to do after the reforms lose is exactly what the movement doesn't need.
Such thinking is poison because nothing is clear or settled--all that attitude does is damp down the momentum going into the vote.
For all your bluster Hector--you sure are easily cowed by oligarch propaganda disguised as legitimate polling.
If I were in front of you now I'd slap you, grab you by the neck and bring you to a Caracas barrio where for the first time in these folks lives they actually have a governemnt that improving their well-being and future prospects.
Worry about what to do if 'si' loses when that becomes a condition on the ground that the Bolivarians have to deal with. To do otherwise at this juncture is ignoble and irrational.
"This is why weak, left-of-center movments fail so often: they play by the rules that illegitimate hierarchies of power allow. This is simply foolish."
well said slave. and the reason that left of center's play by the rules is that they still partially believe them and/or they are in denial.
rules are for competition. competition attains within an agreed upon context. no rules apply in survival. what works you do.
whether chavistas manufactured or discovered this document, they did a brilliant job.
Well said, John Smart.
Nobody asked me when I became a mature adult if I agreed with class hierarchies and corporate domination/propaganda.
So we are muddling in a life-situation that is not of our own choosing. The idea that we need to play by undemocratic, unegalitarian, and rigged rules is simply absurd.
We play be because we have to eat and have shelter--and the oligarchs control the bulk of these vital necessities.
So....if we get enough people together to change the basic rules, so that we don't have to be constrained by these illegitimate fetters....I say, fuck it, go for it.
It is interesting how the most undemocratic players in our societies think that they can preach to the rest of us what is or is not 'democratic'.
Chavez is undemocratic when he infringes on profits for US corps and the Venezuelan oligarchy.....WTF! 
As I said, the undemocratic and illegitimate nature of the the systems that govern most societies are not even hidden. They are on the surface--but incessant propaganda and indoctrination work to subdue people, to colonize peoples' minds.
If you step out of line you are punished in myriad ways.
But if you step out of line with enough people backing you up.....well, that is the 'garchs worst fucking nightmare.
I say let's cause these people to lose some beauty sleep
"Impending Destruction Of The US Economy"...
http://tinyurl.com/2r677k
"Arms expert Scott Ritter says the U.S. plans to attack Iran. Metro Times asks why he’s so sure"...
http://tinyurl.com/3dzdac
This is from an interview with Manuel Rosales in Ultimas Noticias:
¿Ven una opción real de triunfo para el No?
La inmensa mayoría del pueblo está rechazando la reforma constitucional y es irreversible. Crece todos los días.
¿Reconocerían los resultados si no los favorecen?
Está planteada, por primera vez, una clara victoria del pueblo venezolano frente a una reforma que nos cambiaría la vida para mal. Todos los estudios de opinión que me daban perdedor el año pasado, hoy reflejan lo contrario.
¿Cómo califica la actuación del árbitro electoral?
Nosotros vamos con todas las dificultades y desventajas que conocemos, pero hay que votar y hay que defender ese voto. Es el arma que tenemos y si lo entendemos, la victoria será clara. Cuando Chávez ganó la primera elección no tenía miembros de mesa, aunque había más respeto a la institucionalidad. No tenía representantes y el pueblo tomó el camino.
¿Qué le ha parecido la conducta de quienes apoyan la reforma y los constantes cambios de fecha para cerrar la campaña?
Hay nerviosismo en el Gobierno por el rechazo de la mayoría a una propuesta que se traduce en una daga que se clava en el corazón de la sociedad. Por eso vemos las apariciones destempladas de personajes del Gobierno, la manera cómo atropellan y tratan de provocar respuestas violentas. Hemos aceptado los cambios porque no estamos interesados en la violencia. Pensamos que el rechazo a la reforma sería el camino del diálogo. Abriría las perspectivas del reencuentro.
¿Cuál será el futuro del país en caso de que gane el Sí?
De ganar el Sí se inicia el camino a la violencia.
So if the opposition loses he predicts violence!!!
Same old opposition.
LES VAN A DAR A LOS ESCUALIDOS UN HON--RON !!!!
CON TODAS LAS BASES LLENAS !!!!
LAAA BOMMMMMBA AAAATOMMMMMICAAAA
SR,
The polls are looking very very bad indeed. This Sunday is going to be a terrible day for Venezuela.
This raises a question. If Chavez isn't able to get indefinite re-election, then who can possibly step into his shoes in 2013? Who is the possible successor to Chavez?
Unfortunately, it's looking like Chavez is not going to be able to get a third term. We need to start thinking about who he should choose as his successor to run in the 2012 election.
How terrible that we came this close to winning and then lose. I think that the mistake thet was made was not to devalue the currency which would have encouraged food production.
This is going to be a sad and terrible weekend....
Hector,
Take a chill pill. Nothing bad is going to happen this weekend.
A few points
A) Chavez does best under adversity. Remember how many good things came out of the misery of 02/03? Now he will be facing some again.
B) The opposition ALWAYS overreaches. Let them win something and I guarantee you they will screw themselves. Watch.
C) Chavez needs a wake up call. Those around him need a wake up call. Losing this is about the most benign wake up call you can imagine. He will still have 5 years to do lots of things. He still has a pro-Chavez A.N.. The economy is still booming.
D) he will hopefully learn to be more inclusive and willing to listen to a full range of ideas. Hopefully he will learn PODEMOS are neither enemies nor traitors - just people with good intentions who want to work with Chavez to build a better country but have some different ideas.
E) Chavez will have to start making sure there are people who can lead and keep the country on the path he has set on it even if some day he is not around. A movement with one leader is weak. A movement with thousands of leaders is strong. So defeat will force Chavez to make his movement stronger.
And if he uses this wake up call to deal with some things like crime, housing, more job creation, developing beyond oil - if he does that maybe 3 years from now people will reform the constitution so he can stay.
Really, why in your first year of a six year term would you be worrying about re-election. How about just governing well and re-election can be dealt with in due course.
I say on Sunday, the "NO" wins, Chavez wins, and Venezuela wins.
BTW, you know what the WORST thing that could happen this weekend is? It is a very slight "SI" win.
Ow, stop being so fucking credulous!
Sometimes I wonder if you were born and raised in the middle of a corn field OW.
Hector is a total scam artist--he is definately not a die-hard Chavista.
"We are going to lose, look at the polls", etc., etc.
He is fretting about 'who Chavez is going to choose in 2013? WTF!
Yes, Hector your proto-Stalinist, homophobic statements simply don't add up.
Either you are one fucked up guy, or your simply trying to yank our chains.
Everyone--review Hectors discourse. Please don't humor him by positing any of Chavez's main choices for 2014. LOL
Hector, if you are a Chavista--really, I would kick you out of the party. Because your frame of mind is definately a big, fat loser.
OW, I very much disagree with your comments.
Not that if 'no' wins, that it will compel Chavez to reassess--or that Chavez works well under adversity. I agree with this--and these are really truisms.
But, the idea that if 'no' wins, then 'Venezuela wins' is sheer pussified fear.
To engage the types of changes that are going to protect gains for the working class a revolution needs to be won on many fronts, the electoral front is just one.
But, the worst thing that can happen in Venezuela is that in ten years time the same ruling elites have inordinate and illegitimate control over the economy, the media, universities, etc.
The most pathetic thing for people that claim to support democracy to engage is the type of silly thinking where they support allowing oligarchs to weild illegitimate priviledge in society.
Businesses need to be brought under worker control, land needs to be distributed to the benefit of the majority of Venezuelan people, and the media needs to be deeply restructured so that oligarchs cannot engage the type of propaganda that they use in every country to support continued US imperialism and the crimes commited by greedy captialists.
This only sounds extreme to people that don't step back from their social conditioning enough to question root assumptions and 'conventional wisdom'.
The reforms will pass on Sunday. And the Venezuelan people need to be bold enough to deepen the revolutionary project.
Wimpy reformism will only tinker around the edges--and the society will never learn to adapt and engage enough to become anything other than bit-players and spectators in the coming decades--when we all need authentic democratic empowerment most so that we can deal with the myriad crises that will put humankind to the test.
Doesn't matter SR. A lot of other people seem to think the same thing. So it was worth making those points.
"But, the worst thing that can happen in Venezuela is that in ten years time the same ruling elites have inordinate and illegitimate control over the economy, the media, universities, etc"
Ok, SR, I've been meaning to go over this but have been too lazy. But now that you bring this up again...
What has Chavez done to break the grip of the old elite??? The sad reality is not as much as he should have.
Lets take an example, the media. Elites definitely have the media as one of key pillors to maintain their control.
Has Chavez taken the media away from the elites permanently and turned it over to the people? NO HE HASN'T.
In Venezuela there are two media groups. The private media is controlled by the old elite. The other media is controlled by the state. Average people control next to nothing of the media.
Soooooo, if the fucking opposition win a presidential election guess what? They control 100% of the media!!!!! Just like the good old days for them.
Why is that? Because Chavez's claims of having democratized the media are phony. He speaks of the state controlling media as democratizing it when really it isn't. It just means who is in power at the moment controls all the state media.
A more radical change would be to ban and news coverage and politics by any media that is not democratically controlled by the entire population by voting - just like they used to do in Holland. Why doesn't Chavez do that? Why is he so timid in making REAL change in this area?
Come on SR, think this through.
Well, OW, given what we know about the fake polling and the propaganda on the part of US-aligned corporations, the CIA projects in Venezuela--the worst thing to do right now, at this juncture, is to become fearful and consumed by the 'what-ifs'.
It is so utterly apparent that this is not the time to fret about losing--because there is much work that needs to be engaged to ensure that we get out the vote for 'si'.
Being whimpish at this point simply makes no sense.
If the 'no' wins--then we deal with that senerio at that time. Surely, the empire and the oligarchy will use any lose to try to roll back what relatively modest gains have been made to date. But, fuck it, that's when we fight harder--understand the reasons for the loss, and push forward in a more crafty, artful fashion.
But, it is clear that the main strategy from the empire and its oligarch allies right NOW is to dispirit Chavez supporters with fake and innaccurate polling.
SR, put down the crack pipe and engage what I said above.
Heh. Slave, you have become more Chávista than Chávez over the last year!
Meantime, since Chávez stated outright that Colombia's President Uribe was a 'liar', and that he preferred to wait for a new government to be elected in Colombia, the obsequious parasites that pass for journalists in the media here are now saying a defeat for Chávez on 2 December would be a victory for 'Colombia'.
Even more reason that the 'Sí' should win on Sunday.
OW, it is pretty clear that Chavez et al have been working the the face of pretty strong opposition supported by the empire.
Sure, many things haven't been done--and some of the criticisms reflect on Chavez and his supporters, but we are developing in a senerio not entirely to our advantage.
i am not going to make excuses for Chavez--but, all things considered, solid advances have been made.
However, much of the problem in reforming the status quo is the structure of the state. The Venezuelan state has been developed by the upper classes for decades. And the same ideology and attitudes still prevail in the structures of power.
Organizing the bottom half of the population to challenge elite power is pretty damned difficult--and the elites designed the system to resist change.
Alienation, egoism, and consumerism are rife--and they are strong modes of social control.
We are dealing with social class--and challenging structures that undergird class priviledge is a revolutionary act. But this is, at its core, an act of love--because if we cannot transcend human-on-human exploitation we surely cannot develop a society that can mitigate the mounting ecological damage and the catastrophies of nuclear war.
Maintaining the status quo is not an option if humans are to survive and thrive in the long-term on a planet that is worth living on--or, rather, I guess this can be tranformed into a question: is humankind worthy of the planet, do we deserve to survive?
At the core, this is the impetus behind the bolivarian project, the revolution and rebellion against capitalism as a hegemonic force.
This is about survival baby and stepping back from the task of dismanteling oppressive hierarchies of power and domination is suicide and ecoside. This is clear--but one has to step back from the root assumptions and deeply ingrained fears, because the dominant ideology is simpy poison.
The 'garchs are banking on the notion that by the time the planet collapses they will have a colony on Mars. Slave says fuck that--we will hound these pig-fuckers to Pluto to get justice, so that we might survive and hold our heads up as free people, living in a healthy, fulfilling, creative habitat.
If 'no' does indeed loose--this simply means that the discourse and practice of the Bolviarian project is out of harmony, and not strong enough to lead people into a better future.
Part of the problem with not having people to take Chavez's place is that the poor have been beaten down--and they will have to find their voice if they belief that they deserve more power.
The 'master' never really grants the slave any freedom with having. That is a delusion and a lie pimped by the masters and their subordinantes.
The Slave takes power--and if she/he does it in collective fashion, and is strong enough, this lifts the entire social habitat a knotch higher.
But, the battle is never finished--as some would like us to believe in the consu
But, the battle is never finished--as some would like us to believe in the consumerist squalor that is contemporary US social reality--and the unchallenged, blissful green pastures (see rightwing Christianity's version of 'heaven') are an illusory and ignoble goal/sentiment. This is why this metaphor is so forcfully pimped by the masters.
I think the Bolivarian project can take being defeated by 'no' on Sunday--but what we cannot abide is a bunch of whiny punks that will try to beg master to be let back into the big house because its rainy outside This is a sick, loser attitude.
Maybe you can pick up some of Colombia's journalists ... at least they will be able to report without being murdered.
OW, I answered you quite clearly:
Chavez is constriained if he choses to engage change incrementally, without violence.
He makes decisions based on what he and his associates in the government believe is doable.
If the masses in the barrios don't pressure him more, then he will not push the envelope at times.
The thrust of these reforms are intended to allow more propitious conditions for thrusting.
"Chavez is constriained if he choses to engage change incrementally, without violence."
Bull. What stops him from having TVes controll democratically by the Venezuelan population rather than the government?
SR, you are writing alot, but saying little.
You have yet to explain why my one little example, democratizing the media, has yet to be done.
That would be radical change.
That would prevent any elite, new or old, from dominating.
It would put one of the most powerful weapons always used for minorities to dominate majorities in the hands of the people.
So why don't Chavez democratize the media?
Why is that? Because Chavez's claims of having democratized the media are phony. He speaks of the state controlling media as democratizing it when really it isn't. It just means who is in power at the moment controls all the state media.
--OW
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OW, for the record, the 'state' controlling media is a degree of democratization.
Before we had far more, almost total, oligarch media control in Venezuela. So your statement that there is no 'democratization' is simply a crass generalization/rhetorical hyperbole and fundamentally incorrect.
This is a gross and fundamental distortion because of many advances that have been made.
OW, what are you smoking?
Don't you remember how nervous you were about closing RCTV?
And you ask why all oligarch media havn't been closed?
Please, dude, your more intellegent than that OW.
OW, the flaw in your thinking on the issue of making the people living in the barrios and most Venezuelans as being discrete entities totally separate from 'government'.
This is part of an illegitimate distinction that is especially prevelent in the US. It is interesting here in the US where people are alienated from government because 'the market' (ie monied interests, corps) has inordinant control of government. Yet we are propagandized not to see the almost total domination of government by business.
This is not the case with Venezuela.
BS, SR, BS. The crack is messing with your memory.
Refresh it here where I discussed what should be done with RCTV and how it should be truly democratized:
http://oilwars.blogspot.com/2007...place-
rctv.html
"OW, the flaw in your thinking on the issue of making the people living in the barrios and most Venezuelans as being discrete entities totally separate from 'government'."
SR, if the opposition wins a presidential election they will control 100% of the media - VTV, Vives, TVes, and of course all the private media. And then you will see exactly how seperate people in barrios are from the government.
Please SR, quit playing dumb to avoid the real discussion. Read my link in the previous post and tell me why Chavez hasn't done that.
OW, chill out. I am not an expert in the insider machinations that undergird decisions. Please.
And....your implying that Slave is on crack?!
Seriously, OW, check out Borev, he has the Consultadores opinion graphs and it looks good for Chavez and the Bolivarians.
As Slave earlier prognosticated, 'si' is projected to win with 54%. I know it is hard to accept victory OW, but....
Anyway, this is my hunch--especially given all the blatant attempt by the corporate media to talk distort and confuse people.
Go check out Borev's info if you get a chance OW.
Hector....I won't even say it.
YEs, I saw that poll he linked to.
Very nice.
Think Chavez should maybe get around to doing something about crime?
Jesus, OW, indeed!
I will talk about that issue after the referendum, however.
I have to believe that if crime wasn't such a problem that this referendum wouldn't even be a competition. Dirty polling wouldn't even be an issue (maybe 
)
As I said, after the RR I will engage my thoughts on this crime issue.
OW, for the record, the 'state' controlling media is a degree of democratization.
Yea, word to big bird!!! I feel you on this one, hermano.
OW, the government was legitimately elected, remember? Venezuela is still a liberal democracy and on Sunday its people will be voting on the next step in the process solidifying democratic control over their economic, social, and political lives.
The Chávez government cannot democratize the 'Garch controlled media by itself. You saw what happened with RCTV. And that was just a refusal to renew a concession.
He needs help and the new branch of government (the People's Power) will make sure that it comes directly from the hands of the local organized communites. This means that no matter if
"El Filosofo"(Rosales) himself were to be elected president the people's democratic gains over the national and internationl economic dictators are never rolled back.
My prediction for this sunday still stands, homies. El Sí gana con 60%-61%. If I'm wrong then I will gladly admit to it. You here me OW? Till Sunday sucka duck.
P.S. Slave I'm feeling your word for oligarchy hope you don't mind I borrow it. Don't worry ideas are free, but I'll name drop when I'm asked where I got it.
"OW, for the record, the 'state' controlling media is a degree of democratization.
Yea, word to big bird!!! I feel you on this one, hermano.
OW, the government was legitimately elected, remember? Venezuela is still a liberal democracy and on Sunday its people will be voting on the next step in the process solidifying democratic control over their economic, social, and political lives. "
Sure, and whoever wins an election and controls the government controls 100% of the state media. If they already control the private media then they control everything. The opposition is one election away from doing that.
So again, why not ensure a truly democratic media if you have it in your power to do so, which Chavez does?
Why isn't TVes democratically controlled?
Hi SR,
I'm a Chavista in spirit I assure you. Although not half as radical as I might sound sometimes. The lies that some people spout, about Chavistas torturing people and stealing their children, etc. make me angry enough that i say some very uncharitable things. My inclinations are more towards the Yugoslavian, cooperative socialism than the Cuban. although i'm not an enemy of Cuba by any means.
I do think though that the most important thing is for Chavez to at all times maintain the support of a majority. It's possible to run a government and carry out a revolution with minority support, but it's very very far from ideal. We should try to keep the revolution just radical enough so that we keep at least over 50% of people on our side. Otherwise, bad things can start happening.
SR, if we do win this referendum, I will gladly acknowledge you as an expert on Venezuelan affairs....or at least as someone gifted with seeing the future...
Have there been any efforts yet in VZ to set up the integrated fish farms that you mentioned a while ago? Mollusk farming is a good thing too, they do a lot of it in China right now.
"They claim they actually want to increase oil production 60% - without mentioning OPEC quotas! So we see what their position is there."
So does Chavez. Go to the PDVSA page. If you buy their numbers 3.4 to 5.8 is an even bigger rise...
"Why isn't TVes democratically controlled?"
There is a sense in which Chavez can't win. The fundamental contradiction at the heart of the Bolivarian Revolution is that we're having a democratic revolution where the actual grassroots organisations of democracy (trade unions, bottom-up political parties, etc) are extremely weak. The people support revolution but are not at the stage where they can organise themselves to take over. So the Presidency of the Republic has filled the gap left - so you have that essential contradiction, a democratic revolution from above. The foundation of the PSUV is an attempt to bridge that gap and actually bring the masses into active, rather than passive, participation in the Revolution.
To answer your question precisely: if TVes were "democratised", in current situations, who precisely would run it? Who would actually make the decisions and how would they be elected, and what structures would exist to make them accountable? In the actually existing circumstances - rather than ideally or hypothetically - is it feasible to have bottom-up control over the mass media which would be less immune to being taken over by the oligarchy than appointees of the Presidency of the republic? If so, write your schema down on a piece of paper and send it to Caracas, I'm sure someone will be interested to read it.
about the polls. Chavez is popular. This was never in doubt. The reforms are unpopular. This has held true in most polls. Mostly it seems to come down to (1) turnout and (2) loyalty to Chavez. If most people turned out and voted based on merit 'No' would lose.
In reality it is probably to close to call. My gut tells me Chavez will win by a couple points by turning out the vote, massive use of state resources on propaganda and by Chavez focusing. However, it is up in the air.
Leon saying the 60-40 is strange. Why does he bother polling if he simply contradicts himself when talking loosely? However, his firm has been pretty accurate in past polls as have other pollsters on Quico's list.
"technically there is a possibility that it could happen, which is something that has not existed before."
this remains true, and only the dreamers believed this to hold before the 06 election. It is more wide open this time. We'll see...
BS, SR, BS. The crack is messing with your memory.
Refresh it here where I discussed what should be done with RCTV and how it should be truly democratized:
http://oilwars.blogspot.com/2007...m/2007...place-
rctv.html
ow | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 10:57 pm | #
Ok, OW, you got Slave on that one.
Nice.
OW,
I am not in in the government. So, how are you sure that it is not in process or in planning stages as we speak? How long ago was it inaugarated? On May 28, 2007 , OW.
Now how about your dream Dutch system:
Public broadcasting in the Netherlands has been since the very beginning in the early 1920s split up into different companies. Because the Dutch society is very heterogeneous each group wanted to have its own broadcasting company.
---Netherlands Public Broadcasting---
It look's like it didn't happen overnight.
I don't know about no pillarisation, OW.
I like bridges on my pillars, thank you very much. Venezuela is a unified culture in the sense that regardless of differences, they all have one national-historic origin. So, in essence, it would be easier to implement a system in a more participative spirit . But I reiterate, how do you know that it's not?
The articles even in the bourgeoise press of the US, in the last paragraph, remind us of Chavez's amazing ability to turn out voters.
The opposition have never been tactical geniuses. I don't think they want to win. If they win that means the system works. They have never wanted that to happen before. Much of their recent demands, have been about postponing the election.
It's going to be harder to win elections as time goes on. Part of the government bureaucracy needs to be purged. Corruption and disloyalty has to be weeded out of the police and military.
So far, I have seen more than 50 "Conspiracist" arguments, that are absolutely no arguments at all.
Why don't you look into his methods? Why don't you attack his methodology? Why don't you attack his conclusions, if the raw data cannot be beaten?
It would be refreshing that you took a half-rational attitude towards this apparent defeat...
Oh you can try harder...
not sure why you like the BoRevnet blog.
Take the latest entry on polls. It takes Leon's statement and concludes that the dataanalisis work is BS. It then faults others for citing this BS. It then goes on to cite the only recent poll that provides substantial support for the SI, while ignoring all the rest of the polls. It ignores that Dataanalisis and others have been reliable in the past.
Objective? Balanced? Interesting? VTV would be proud.
by the way, it would be interesting to see a post on the polls from this blog...
I was going to wait until Monday to come back here and make comments on a regular basis, but I must take the time to say this: as I have been saying all along for the last few weeks, we will win the referendum by a sizeable margin. The difference will be between 12% to 20%. However, I know also that abstentionism will be high and that the opposition and imperialism will use this as a pretext to continue their violent campaign of "civil disobedience". Rather small groups of extremists among reactionary forces will attempt to blow up oil instalations, destroy potable water reservoirs, dynamite electric lines and bridges, set public buildings on fire, and engage in all forms possible of sabotage and mayhem. But in doing this, they will throw the opposition into greater disarray and divisionism. The revolution, on the other hand, will face new desertions and a brutal international onslaught through the media which will gradually subside as US capitalism sinks into economic slow down by the end of the year, leading into a recession and a major depression in 2008-2009.
The difference will be between 12% to 20%
And if the difference is 9% or 24% will you stop making such assertive statements in the future? I love how absolutely sure all of the PSF's are.
"My prediction for this sunday still stands, homies. El Sí gana con 60%-61%. "
Wow, so we've got a range now of 12% to 40%!
"So does Chavez. Go to the PDVSA page. If you buy their numbers 3.4 to 5.8 is an even bigger rise..."
Tor that is IF OPEC were to increase Venezuela's quota which is possible once the Orinoco audit it done. That is a big if.
Under Chavez Venezuela has not broken OPEC quotas. Under the previous government it did.
And reading the PJ document they don't mention adhering to OPEC quotas and only say they Venezuela should support OPEC in as much as it is in its interest to do so - as if there are instances where it isn't.
"not sure why you like the BoRevnet blog.
Take the latest entry on polls. It takes Leon's statement and concludes that the dataanalisis work is BS. It then faults others for citing this BS. It then goes on to cite the only recent poll that provides substantial support for the SI, while ignoring all the rest of the polls. It ignores that Dataanalisis and others have been reliable in the past.
Objective? Balanced? Interesting? VTV would be proud."
Tor, you are not reading carefully. Datanalisis supposedly has polls showing the NO winning by a good size margin - check the CC blog. Then in this interview with Rueters the president of Datanalysis basically says "The SI will probably win 60-40".
Do you not see a little contradiction there????? And does not that contradiction make the polls suspect, maybe even BS??
I don't post on the polls much - although I did on the Keller one a couple of weeks ago, because there have been VERY few in the public domain. In fact, I have commented on teh fact that it is very strange they are not in the public domain.
Apparently the people commenting on them are getting them e-mailed to them (actually, they acknowledge that). I am not so lucky. But why are they only sent privately, not released publically like there were during last years presidential election?
One thought that crosses my mind is that if they are not public it is easier to disavow them later.
Anyways, I am not making any predictions for Sunday other than I don't have a clue.
But I will say this: If the NO wins, Chavez wins, if the SI wins by more than 10% Chavez wins, if the SI wins by a small margin Chavez loses.
BTW, Tor, I saw your post now up above where you did note the contradiction.
It is that sort of thing that BoRev is getting at and the tendency of headlines to not match the story.
It's amazing that everyone believes the polls (see Quico's site) so blindly. A year ago Chavez got 63% of the vote and now, according to Datanalysis he will get 39%. Do any of you honestly believe this? At most Chavez will lose 5% and the opposition gain 5%.
The pollsters were bought. Period. The opposition and NED/USAID/CIA have learned and instead of maniipulated exit polls we now have manipulated final polls.
Today's march will knock the wind out of the opposition's sails.
OW, you tend to personalize this way too much with 'Chavez-wins/Chavez-loses' This conceptualization tends to blot out the fact that there are millions of Venezuelans that stand to take a much greater role in helping direct their futures with these changes.
As I have stated before--analysis of this government is much to often reduced to the person of Hugo Chavez.
About the polls--I think that one factor that makes it difficult for the pollsters is that they don't want to turn-off wealthy business interests.
The Venezuelan rightwing likes smoke blown up its ass (Tor and Quico are examples). Why would a pollster doing buinsess in Caracas want to totally piss off the majority of its clientel.
Vincent Leon is a perfect example of this: throwing out some garbage numbers that bring spirit and hope to a bunch of unorganized, anti-social greedy elites that make no attempt to develop policies that can compete with the Bolivarian program. This is politics done easy. However, to maintain a modicum of credibility he admits that the long-held 60-40 split for the pro-Bolivarian side is likely to carry through with the actual vote.
It was hilarious to see Katy and others at Quico's blog massaging this statement: they interpreted it as there is a 60% chance that Chavez wins and 40% that the opposition carries the day. Yes, they actually say these things.
The delusion is palpable. Keep in mind that we are still operating in a system where corporate oligarchy and imperialism will join forces to defeat any left movements that threaten capitalist global hegemony. Lies, black ops, and continual war is their modus operandi.
It is bald and brazen on its face--but the incredibly indoctrinated among the managerial classes have been taught not to see what is directly in front of their faces.
Tor's thinking is an example of this. He doesn't examine his habituated ways of seeing the world--especially classism. He doesn't critically scrutinize his core assumptions about power and relations of domination. Indeed, he is preparing himself for a lucrative job serving the 'garchs.
Tor, your pathetic attempts to portray yourself as 'rational', staid, and 'objective' are just that, ignoble and tragic. Especially sad is your obsequiousness toward the deranged silver-spooner Quico.
I agree Anonymous--hence by previous prediction of just below 55% for 'si'.
Tor, Borev is what Quico can never be: a sharp wit and a critical thinker. You can't be this--and accurate consistently--when your life is geared toward protecting illegitimate power, priviledge and imperialism.
In between meetings I read this:
But I will say this: If the NO wins, Chavez wins, if the SI wins by more than 10% Chavez wins, if the SI wins by a small margin Chavez loses.
ow | Homepage | 11.30.07 - 8:29 am | #
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OW, with all due respect I think this has to be one of the craziest statements ever made by you on this blog. Chávez can ONLY win if he indeed WINS. Actually, the present juncture is so decisive that Chávez himself has said that only a Sí majority will insure his permanence in power. Otherwise, he will step down, as I also think he should. See, OW, this is not your typical run-of-the-mill-predictable-boring -wishy washy-insignificant-and ultimately ineffective Latin American social democrat and populist project, but a truly revolutionary one. We will not settle for anything less, and if we lose on Sunday we ought to renounce the executive power and call again for a national plebiscite on the continuation of the Bolivarian Revolution or not. If we also lose that plebiscite, then Chávez and all of us who believe in the profoundly revolutionary nature of the process, should separate ourselves from any form of State power, take our struggle to the midst of the civil society and start anew from the bottom up. And even if it takes us another 10 or 20 years to win in a truly revolutionary fashion and promote the changes we know are the only ones that can transpire into a better and more just society, so be it! But let's make it clear that we should NOT stay in power if the revolutionary and socialist project we seek to implement, doesn't enjoy the support of the majority of Venezuelans. This is a socialist and democratic revolution in the deepest and broadest sense of the concept. The first one in fact, in the history of human kind. We will go as far only as people themselves are willing to go. Not a step less, and not a step more. Thus, if on Sunday we win, we WIN, and if we lose, we LOSE. That's all and let's stop fooling ourselves with sterile flights of rhetorical fancy.
"Operation Pincer, a US scenario for Venezuela"
Thu, 29 Nov 2007
"On November 26, 2007 the Venezuelan government broadcast and circulated a confidential memo from the US embassy to the CIA which is devastatingly revealing of US clandestine operations and which will influence the referendum this Sunday, December 2, 2007"...
http://tinyurl.com/2uosbm
The fundamental contradiction at the heart of the Bolivarian Revolution is that we're having a democratic revolution where the actual grassroots organisations of democracy (trade unions, bottom-up political parties, etc) are extremely weak. The people support revolution but are not at the stage where they can organise themselves to take over. So the Presidency of the Republic has filled the gap left - so you have that essential contradiction, a democratic revolution from above. The foundation of the PSUV is an attempt to bridge that gap and actually bring the masses into active, rather than passive, participation in the Revolution.
This is one of the most honest and interesting comments I have read on this - thank you for writing it.
But it begs a very big question. Why? WHy after so many years are all the grass roots organizations so weak? Why has nothing grown up?
The UNT is still weak? Why? Remember the "Bolivarian Circles"? What happened to them? Why was the MVR never a democratic grass roots organization? And is the PSUV really being set up and run in a democratic grass roots way?
You comment would be important if it is really true. And it might be true to some extent. But believe me when I honestly say that I am not sure it is true and I am not sure that it is not the executive branch which is undermining the grass roots.
Well said, Moyhabin.
This isn't about setting up a system analogous to that of Costa Rica that keeps the majority of the population subordinate to the oligarchs and their US masters.
F'that. Fuck throwing a bone at people living deep inequality and telling them that they are 'unpriviledged' and not worthy true human equality.
If si loses, call a national vote on Chavez's political program--give the population a chance to reject the Bolivarian project in total. If Quico and the oligarchs can gain the support of the majority, then clearly Chavez and his allies have failed in a very profound sense.
Then it is back to the barrios, back to the small towns to rebuild and reconceptualize the entire project.
That is what authentic democracy is all about. Clinging to power and maintaning a sorry, inegalitarian system that trades off power from two oligarch supported political factions will simply ensure deep poverty and inequality in perpetuity.
F'that, Slave don't play that.
To answer your question precisely: if TVes were "democratised", in current situations, who precisely would run it? Who would actually make the decisions and how would they be elected, and what structures would exist to make them accountable? In the actually existing circumstances - rather than ideally or hypothetically - is it feasible to have bottom-up control over the mass media which would be less immune to being taken over by the oligarchy than appointees of the Presidency of the republic?
Actually, in a democratic system the "oligarchy" as you call it would control PART of these media? Why? Because it would be done by votes so that everyone would have some control.
So Primero Justicia would be on TV. The Catholic chuch, PODEMOS, the unions, everyone.
Now it is 100% state controlled and if the state pasess back into the hands of the "oligarchy" guess who controls all that media?
OW, the poor are always more difficult to organize than are the more indoctrinated and 'trained' upper classes.
This is a structural weakness that is tied directly to the larger economics of the situation.
Seems like a truism.
Remember, many of the supporters of Chavez work 50, 60, or 70hrs per week.
"If si loses, call a national vote on Chavez's political program--give the population a chance to reject the Bolivarian project in total."
Oh, yeah great fucking idea. If some project, WHICH NONE OF YOU CAN EVEN DEFINE, gets voted down lets turn the government back over to the opposition. No more missions, no more social programs, Venezuela out of OPEC, PDVSA privatized, etc., etc.
Brilliant guys, just fucking brilliant.
Another thing you miss OW--actual 'democracy' doesn't function when you have vast differentials in wealth. Democratic policies and reforms can change this--but it is not achieved overnight. This is a process.
Nobody is saying the the oppos with totally destroy everything that Chavez's policies have done. That would be political suicide for the 'garchs', indeed.
But if 'no' does win. Yes, give the people the option to put the 'garchs' back in power. Why not?
Last weeks opposition have been mobilisized. But i think the race have turned more into a Chavez-Oppo race, and this is what Si needs. The opposition have tried all to confuse this, hiding the opposition behind students, Baduel, Podemos etc.
Nobody is saying the the oppos with totally destroy everything that Chavez's policies have done. That would be political suicide for the 'garchs', indeed.
ok, obviously you are not on crack. It must be something stronger. Soooo, put the herion syringe down, put your hands up in the air, and slowly back away.
Seriously, if the opposition is back in power they will:
1) break OPEC quotas, "invest" in the oil industry, maybe privatize it, reduce royalties and essentially make sure Venezuela has a LOT less oil revenue
2) gut SENIAT so rich people can stop paying so many taxes
3) use the lack of revenue from teh previous two to then say - "sorry, we really like the Missions too but we just can't afford them".
What Chavez has done would at best last 3 years under an opposition government.
1, there is a poll for anything you want there to be...haven't you lived in the STATES LONG ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT??You guys are as gullible as can be...well lord of mercy !
2.Chavez has a need to do his " roborevoution" paso por paso, if he closed down all media too quickly he would have had too many violent reactions from a people who will fight for freedom like nobody you know... .Also he would have looked like a dictator to the foreigners, something he has been trying to HIDE.
3. Chavez is tricky and knows the Venezuelan people, you guys do not.You guys are delusional and arrogant, like Chavez, but Chavez is more sociopathically intelligent than you guys
4. Also some of Chavez's best friends are the rich,but those he is trying to eliminate immediately are the middle class...he has to cow tow to the rich to some degree...some degree of private ownership has to be maintained for some time..like you say, the rich are powerful and he is always on the side of power, for expediency.The poor can be used and manipulated, the rich can be bought, but it is the middle class that are on the true side of more freedom and can give him more trouble.
5.You guys are too stupid to even run a small dry cleaning shop much less be experts on Venezuelan affairs
6.Chavez is the new oligarch, except that he is a one man paranoid manic depressive ..who is now in the process of decompensating
7. I have a much better way of knowing than looking at polls...I know the people...and you can see the support from Chavez( if you know the real people) has plummeted drastically.That is called reality vrs, fantasy( something you guys cannot discriminate
8. not taking into account the history and spirit of a people will get you into trouble...Venezuelans love freedom so much they will -even when a lion is let loose from the Zoo-yes, yes, we will tolerate it almost indefinitely, because we LOVE freedom
9.you waste so much time analyzing stupid hypothetical details and do not see the essence of things....are you guys Virgos or something?
10. BUT NOT TO WORRY.all semi intelligent humans see thru Chavez's tactics , especially since they know that he is no longer widely supported
11.I will admit that the first election he did actually win it but later, there was too much trickery involved like giving hundreds of thousands of illegal Colombians cedulas if they voted for him, cultivating the prison populations, buying off the votes of the ignorant, stealing foreign cedulas and using their numbers as false votes etc.And of course the old standby, lies and empty promises
12.At this point the discontent is rising because those who used to want to believe Chavez so they could get some free money etc. are now seeing that it is all a sham..they used to think that Chavez would keep giving them free money but would never turn Venezuela into a Cuba...Venezuelans hate that because we have too many Cubans there to know the difference, before and after Chave
WHICH NONE OF YOU CAN EVEN DEFINE,
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What are you talking about? The project is very well defined in its essential goal: attain a socialist society in Venezuela. More specifically, a society in which all means of production are socialized, not exclusivelly through State property as in XXth century socialism, but through direct control of the people through popular councils. You on the other had are proposing to us that we should attemtp to apply failed political and economic schemes that have never worked in peripheral societies subjected to direct imperialist control. Fine, that is YOUR project, not OURS, and beleive me, we shall NEVER embrace it, for it would be against all the lessons our history provides us with. If the people of Venezuela rejects further advance towards socialism, all the missions and reforms introduced until now would be eventually dismatelled -as it has already happened before with other forms of welfare developed in the Latin America's recent past. The ONLY way to defend and enlarge those achievements, is by advancing through permanent revolution -as Chávez himself never ceases to repeat- via democratic support and active participation of the majority of Venezuelans. Thus, if we lose the plebiscite on Sunday we will have to hit again the drawing board and start from scratch...but don't worry OW, you are welcome to come down to Venezuela and try to defend the remaining spoils of the Bolivarian welfare State as an advisor to your pal Baduel and the Podemos guys against the brutal counterpuch unleashed by the fascist sectors of the opposition and US imperialism.
So if we lose the crucial vote on Sunday,
Firepig = the Leper. What a stupid moron this guy is!
OW, Moyhabin makes the more compelling argument.
This is a referendum on continuing the project that has been created so far.
If Chavez looses, and the right starts dismantling social benefits, then it is clear that the project has basically failed by being too shallow. If 'no' wins then it is clear that many errors have been made--and the Venezuelan people, as a whole, have not been sufficiently convinced.
Firepig--what are you ranting about? The lame old metaphor of the virtuous and impinged upon middle classes?--make me puke.
Yeah, you are correct about Chavez hemoraging support: I hear that there is going to be a massive protest against Chavez today on on the Bolivar. Make sure you dress in red
Moyhabin--yes the pig is finished. All we are doing now, in culinary terms, is called pasting and smoking.
Moyhabin, is it true?
I kind'a wondered how Firepig, from a dirt floor barrio, would have connections in Belarus.
And it was also interesting that when Kepler exited--firepig (mother, housewive, cook, an knitter) entered the fray.
Review some of Kepler/firepigs comments. Not only are they classicst, they are also profoundly racist (talking about 'blacks' eeekk!)
Moyhabin, what is really creeply is that Kepler as firepig was trying to be vaugly flirtatious with me---teaming up with Golden Toy.
Really wierd.
Kepler, I don't go that route. But I am flattered (not really 
)
OW, heads up: check out the news at aporrea, another Chavez supporter has been killed, most likely by pro-'garch thugs.
Another example of rightwing terror that will be submerged by the global corporate media.
moyhabin ( moi has been ? )....I am a woman, do not insult me please.I love men but truth out, woman are smarter..
what an intelligent reply.Thanks so much..I love it !!! little social engineer wannabie....and I worry not...because you have so lost touch with your body that you cannot see reality when it hits you in the face....which is actually starting to happen...can't you tell the difference between a woman writing and a man writing ??? ( i can see the stupid insults you are going to throw out now but whatever you think of me, you should be able to see this difference.....that is what I mean by,
out of touch......
Moyhabin, what is really creeply is that Kepler as firepig was trying to be vaugly flirtatious with me---teaming up with Golden Toy.
------------------------
Well, I'm really not that surprised. I have always had this intuitive feeling that the Leper's self-impossed exile has more to do with his sexual orientation and "him" coming out of the closet in Europe, than anything political. He's trying to deflect attention away from his sexual thingy and trying to impress his authoritarian daddy by making him beleive that he's a courageous "freedom fighter".
Hahahahahaha
Kepler! Give it a rest.
Yes, I can see your womanly writing. How are your children.
Indeed, many of us have been constrained by the authoritarian gender roles that society foists on us--and Kepler is escaping such confines, even if only through his imagination.
And quite an imagination it is.
Kepler, I tried the alternate persona on Publis--but I didn't change my gender. Maybe that is where I f'ed up? Golden Toy busted me soon enough however.
Kepler, make sure you wear a red dress to the protest against Chavez today--and matching pumps.
can't you tell the difference between a woman writing and a man writing ???
------------------------
Hey piggy, no one is denying your "obvious" and quite admirable womanhood!
Hahahahahaha
Amazing how much time you guys spend using dirty words, and ignoring real thoughts...I can see your smug faces ....and though I was dirt poor then for many years I am not now... NOW i AM ONLY SLIGHTLY POOR,THO ACCORDING TO THE GOVERNMENT, STILL BELOW THE POVERTY LINE.....and what does connection to Belarus have to do with being dirt poor or not.THERE WE GO AGAIN, EVERYTHING IS AN OXYMORON FOR YOU..NO ABILITY TO THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX
gives me an edge duckie...I was born outside the box...
that is what I mean by,
out of touch......
firepig5 | 11.30.07 - 10:36 am | #
------------------------
Sure piggy, I really rather stay OUT of TOUCH...if you know what I mean. Not that there is anything wrong with it Leper, but it's simply not my cup of tea.
OK. Have to run now. But you have made me laugh Leper. One can always count on you for badly needed comic relief.
Hahahahahaha
Kepler, really, you are embarassing yourself.
But that is alright--we respect the rights of people to express themselves sexually. Just keep kids and animals out of the picture, ok?
Seriously, though, firepig...err...Kepler, are you going to the massive protest against Chavez today?
(Moyhabin, you had firepig pegged! Especially when the 'social engineering' rant came to the forefront. No, Kepler, we don't want to 'cure' you--that is what the rightwing is all about here in the US, however.)
as for costa rica( and I have esqualida family there too) the chavistas are running around with their heads cut off.....because the poor in costa rica are so much better off than the poor chavecito is "helping" in Venezuela- that is why it is popular...people love to see the poor not so poor and prospering in a lovely way.........
Americans and euoros prefer to vacation there.They are afraid of the crime and craziness of Chavezland, except of course for the wannabie social engineers like you you revel in self glorification when you think you can " help" even when you are hurting others...
so bizarre, well not really because in el fondo, you :
only expiate your guilt
I am laughing....Kepler is too educated and polite to be me.
I speak the truth bluntly...it's all in astrology..I am Aquarius ..Kepler is a European gentleman, though I don't know his sign...you guys are uneducated in terms of manners.How disgusting of you to make jokes about flirting....but typical of people who have nothing real to say, and were born in a barn and stayed there.
firepig said: "Kepler is too educated and polite to be me. I speak the truth bluntly...it's all in astrology..I am Aquarius ..Kepler is a European gentleman, though I don't know his sign."
Leper, you are outdoing yourself bro. This is almost as funny as Golden Toy stalking me.
Yes, Fpig, the Euro-gentleman Leper is a model to emulate for all!
By the way, Leper is a 'virgo' i think
After all the enthusiasm of the march yesterday I see that certain bloggers at CC are losing it.
They have gotten sucked in by bogus polls and the fact that Globo cannot be seen in 80% of the country.
Caracas is not Venezuela, escualidos!
Any poll such as Consultores is being cast aside as they take comfort in Datanalysis and Oscar "I got the exit poll reversed" Schemel of Hinterlaces. Luis Vicente Leon has all but admitted that his poll (39% for the Sí) is twisted when he came out and said 60-40 for Chavez.
Looking carefully at the Consultores poll, all government rating have dropped by about 5% since last year. Sooooo....it' reasonable to assume that the Sí will end up around 58% with No around 42%. Then allowing for any other negative factors it could end up 55% - 45% and even OW will be happy and Venezuela wins as well as Chavez.
"But it begs a very big question. Why? WHy after so many years are all the grass roots organizations so weak? Why has nothing grown up?"
They aren't weak at all - what is missing is the organisational structure that links the communal councils together and upwards.
That is what the geometry of power is all about.
You can watch the si rally here live:
http://wwitv.com/tv_channels/b1572.htm
Doesn't look like they have smaller numbers than the opposition did.
Click on thet 100K link to get a separate window to pop out to view the larger image of the broadcast.
I mean, it looks like they have a smaller crowd than the no rally. But it's hard to tell from this video.
I don't know about anyone else but I find it amazing that political opponents in Venezuela but great emphasis on the size of these rallies two freaking days before people will actually vote. I guess its a Venezuelan thing...
BTW, I guess the "NO" must not be doing so well. They had their rally on the Avenida Bolivar which as we know from opposition types who calculated this with great precision before can only hold about 69,000 people.
http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/c...2006/09/
11.html
I wonder why they now retreated to the Avendia Bolivar when they always claimed they had much larger rallies elsewhere?
Dan, I'm watching it live and the Si vote has a SMALLER rally than the opposition did. So I guess the "SI" isn't doing so well.
Moyhabin | 11.29.07 - 2:07 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Well, what is a fascist? Is a fascist someone who comes out of the military and "alerts" active duty commanders against a democratic electoral process calling it a "coup" and appearing on a pro fascist mass media outlet (Globovision), and whose actions are in concert with US destabilization plans? Am I saying Baduel met with the CIA? No, he very well wouldn't need to or even want to. But the man couldn't be so dense as not to know that the US wants to destabilize and ovethrow the present elected government of Venezuela.
Maybe it's my New York Jewishness that makes me think that PODEMOS running to Globovision a coupist television outlet, is treasonous. I'm married to a Venezuelan but I will admit I don't know what makes Venezuelans tick, and I can't understand this gentleness towards mortal enemies.
"Chávez himself has said that only a Sí majority will insure his permanence in power. Otherwise, he will step down"
Moy-boy, I have to admit that you are a perfectionist. You won't stop until you are a perfect stupid. You are on the right track.
OW & Moyhabin,
I think I see firepig--yes, I believe that it is...
A guy with a voto 'no' sign, with a red dress.
I know that it is firepig because of the sign and the facial hair.
Firepig, the blond Marylin Monroe wig is quite becoming, but it clashes with your brown beard and moustache.
PODEMOS is a mortal enemy?
BTW, has it occured to you that the reason they went to Globo is because they couldn't get access to VTV, VIVE, or TVes?
If there was a little democracy in the media people wouldn't be forced to do things like that. But Chavez has refused to democratize the media - so there you go.
"Dan, I'm watching it live and the Si vote has a SMALLER rally than the opposition did. So I guess the "SI" isn't doing so well."
Even if true, I think the actual vote matters more.
BTW, in an article in today's WSJ the president of Datanalysis says heavy campaigning by Chavez has reversed the trend towards NO and the SI is now gaining.
Eugene, I have to agree with you about Podomos and Baduel.
They could have communicated differently--they know the CIA is operating in Venezuela. I simply interpret this as becoming part of the opposition.
They were comfortable keeping the oligarchs ruling the society, engaging some paultry reforms, and protecting the status quo capitalist domination.
"Eugene, I have to agree with you about Podomos and Baduel.
"
Yeah, if some of the media was democratically controlled they could have....
OW, you really believe that Podomos couldn't get covered on vive or vtv? You really believe these people?
I certainly don't. What is important to me is the 'context/timing' of their announcement--meant to inflict maximum damage.
jsb--the march is only beginning you doof. Before it is over you will see a sea of red. So many socialists in one place that it will make you piss your pants.
OW--so now this fucker says 'si' is gaining!
Sounds to be as though he is trying cover his sorry ass.
Please, OW, bring this info to Quico's blog--it will make great fodder for discussion.
"It is that sort of thing that BoRev is getting at and the tendency of headlines to not match the story."
I did note contradiction. I find it odd. Anyone know exactly what Leon said in Spanish?
If the Borev post noted that and made a moderate point, I'd be fine with the blog entry. However, they use this one statement to rubbish - without much evidence - most polls contradicting the only poll the blog seems to like. And fail to note that Consultadores 30.11 is affliated with the government and contradicts other credible polls.
Classic VTV stuff really. It is just taking cheap pot-shots at a target not analysis. Most posts I've read are similar. It is very one sided, holding anti-Chavez stuff under a microscope and almost never saying anything critical about Chavismo or the government.
Tor, you dunce! Borev wears his support for Chavez and his criticisms of existing, US-lead capitalism on his sleeve.
The fact of the matter is that all these 'reliable' polls that you allude to are, in fact, not so reliable.
Now Vincent Leon is saying that the 'si' is gaining momentum.
Face it--you can't handle that your US/Economist type of policies for a future Venezuela is being rejected once again. You are losing it.
You are like a bull--and I say 'ole!' bull.
Tor, how much do you want to bet that Consultadores polling will be closest to reality this coming Monday?
JSB--I am looking at the live-feed on vive. From what I see, there are at least three million people in Caracas. You need to learn math.
Could be more.
Tor,
The WSJ article offered an explanation: the NO was ahead but now the SI is doing better so maybe he now the SI is looking like it will win.
As far as these other polls go - where are they? What you are seeing on other blogs are charts made by that blogger - not any real poll results that are made public. Apparently these are being e-mailed around secretly to select people. Hmmm, last time that happened it was the bogus exit polls from the RR.
I am suspect of anyone who is not willing to put their polls in the public domain for the historical record.
Keller did and here is what they showed:
http://oilwars.blogspot.com/2007...rocks-
long.html
30.11 is also willing to put theirs in the public domain.
What is up with the others?
Maybe they are real and correct but I find it both very odd and very suspect that they seem to keeping their polls under wraps. After all, it is easier to later disown e-mails than power point slides on the internet.
BTW, soon the polls will all be irrelevant - unless it is just a set up to cry fraud.
OW, yes, it is a setup to cry fraud--just as the CIA operative indicated in the intercepted (manufactured?) communication.
Quico is swallowing all the fake information that are circulating, he seems to be salivating now at the idea that the 'si' will win with 58%. Really, if he weren't such a silver spoon prick I'd feel sorry for him.
You should try to interject some skepticism OW--Tor certainly won't want to get in between Quico and a hieghtened electoral delusion.
"No more missions, no more social programs, Venezuela out of OPEC, PDVSA privatized, etc., etc."
there is very little evidence for any of this. No politican campaigning in 2006 favored any of this. No politicans seem to be supporting any of these now. Yet you conclude - with almost certainty - that these will happen immediately with a change of government.
Any other government will immediately set about reducing revenues (SENIAT) and cutting very popular missions. They will privatize PDVSA something that is very unpopular. They will invest in the oil industry (exactly like Chavez is doing) yet they would DESTROY Opec and cause oil price to go back to $20 - this analysis meanwhile ignoring all the fundamentals of the oil market in 2007. Yet PDVSA's increased production plan is not contingent on quota increases (which are highly unlikely anyway). It says they will increase production without mentioning compatibility with OPEC. Anyone see OPEC Venezuela getting a quota of 5.8 m/b in 2012. Sure thing...
They must to stupid these opponents and poltically suicidal.
However, most oppo politicans seem no different than traditional AD and COPEI folks. That is a healthy dose of state intervention, no privatization (unless bankruptcy is knocking), as much spending as can be afforded etc. Suddenly everyone, but Chavez has gone capitalism mad? The history of Venezuelan politics before Chavez contradicts this.
...but they tried to 'sort of' do all this in the 90s you'll say. Just like a normal person, a bankrupt country needs to behave differently than a country flooded with oil money.
Your reasoning is almost like the US in Central America in the 70s and 80s. They saw a communist threat. They greatly exaggerated it and sold it as if only communists got elected the whole country would go to hell (or to Russia which was the same thing in their mind). So they supported unsavory alternatives instead of fighting for democracy. This was short-sighted.
I am not saying Chavez is like those unsavory alternative. That is not the point. However, you clearly don't like the direction he is moving nor his undemocratic reform. Yet you create this exaggerated disaster scenario as the only alternative...
"Tor, how much do you want to bet that Consultadores polling will be closest to reality this coming Monday?"
I actually suspect Chavez will win, but not by much. Does that mean the Borev post was good? Not close. It is mediocre analysis at best. A site like venezuelaanalysis is much better.
btw. Slave if you spent more time actually debating the issues istead of talking about plows, launching personal attacks etc. you might actually contribute to the debate. You read Quico's posts. What was that long german word? V.H. is all I remember.
Unbelievable how many SI voters were on the streets compared to the NO...but of course Chavez was controlling international press as much as possible..but still there are pictures, loads of them.I know you Boys don't understand Venezuelans ..thank God....YOU ARE THE OPPOSITE of what we like in people....you have little square minds, obsessive thinking, no flow, no subtle understanding, no mysticism...so 1st world...so overdog..SO BOSSY,proud of yourselves, arrogant, so take charge , AND MOST OF ALL, SO UN-VENEZUELAN..in fact I would venture to say the you are the portrait of what you claim to hate.....how odd
Tor, what OW recognizes is that the wealthy elite will not reduce poverty or empower the population and move toward more egalitarianism.
No, just like the corrupt parties in all capitalist nations, they will slowly bleed the state and hand over wealth to the oligarchs. That is their game plan. They have no political will to eliminate social inequality.
But OW is also afraid of real socialism. And this is by dint of his place in the system of class priviledge. He is, however, smart enough to see how corrupted political parties beholden to oligarchs really are.
The oligarchs reward their managerial class--but would like to enslave and disempower the masses. That's why they are 'garchs--and not democrats.
"Maza and Guerra are among 50 economists and university professors who this week released a five-page document highlighting the negative effects that the new constitution will have on the economy. "
This available anywhere?
``All these economists who are warning over the possible negative effects of the reform were the same ones that for years had predicted that things would go to hell in Venezuela,'' said Mark Weisbrot, economist at the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Economic and Policy Research. ``It never happened.''
...yawn. Oil prices have increased quite a bit every single year. So it didn't go to hell...
Thanks for your comments Kepler.
Were you harrassed for wearing the red dress with the 'no' sign at the march.
yes, there are millions in Caracas. We are kicking ass! Must be over two million.
"Tor, what OW recognizes is that the wealthy elite will not reduce poverty or empower the population and move toward more egalitarianism"
that is probably true, however, last time I checked 100% of the population votes in elections...
Tor, why don't you ask Quico to engage some much needed skepticsm at this point.
I mean.....'si' at 58%! The guy is going off the rails.
the markets opinion...
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/ne...MiOo&
refer=news
remember these guys actually have to put money where their mouth is i.e. if they are too pessimistic they stand to lose big...
"Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's bid to amend the constitution is turning the country's bonds into the world's worst-performing debt even as oil revenue rises to a record. "
"The government's 9 1/4 percent dollar bonds due in 2027 tumbled 23 percent this year, with almost half the losses coming this month before a Dec. 2 referendum on the proposed changes. Chavez wants to end presidential term limits and make it easier to seize private property."
``The country is mainly reliant on one man's decisions,'' said Tomasz Stadnik, who manages $3.1 billion of emerging-market debt at ABN Amro Asset Management Services in London. ``The policies aren't market-friendly.''
"The bonds yield 5.24 percentage points more than Treasuries of similar maturity, up from 1.82 percentage points at the start of the year, according to JPMorgan's benchmark index. Only Ecuador, whose president has threatened to default, has a wider spread, 6.07 percentage points, among countries in the index. "
"The only other time Venezuela's bonds and oil prices moved in different directions was in 2000, when a 39 percent drop in the Nasdaq Composite Index cut into demand for higher-yielding, emerging-market assets. That year, oil rose 4.7 percent while the bonds fell 2.3 percent. "
"Oil has increased 46 percent in 2007. Petroleum accounts for almost 90 percent of Venezuela's exports. The nation is the world's fifth-largest crude producer, according to data compiled by London-based BP Plc. "
"Venezuelan bonds are rated BB-, three levels below investment grade. The last time oil had a similar rally, in the 1970s, the country's debt was rated AAA. "
``A country with the oil wealth of Venezuela should be investment grade,'' said Alberto Ramos, a Latin America economist in New York at Goldman Sachs Group Inc.
Crude climbed to a record $99.29 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange on Nov. 21, more than triple the $31.61 price four years earlier.
`Rock Solid'
The government gets more than half its revenue from oil sales. Debt equals 22.4 percent of the country's gross domestic product, below the 33.9 percent average for developing nations, according to ING Bank NV.
``The fundamentals are rock solid,'' said Gianfranco Bertozzi, a Latin America economist at Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. in New York. ``We still like it as a credit.''
Tor, and these vaunted 'markets' should tell you that capitalists can be fanatic, delusional, and irrational.
I mean, they begin the article talking about 'dictatorship'.
You should know better than pointing to these sub-prime geniouses as some type of creidble evidence.
Admit it Tor, your pro-empire oligarch quislings are losing it--they are gong off the deep end.
They fundamentally hate the concept of democracy--they want the dictatorship of 'the market', ie, capitalists protected by the threat of US violence when the slaves step out of line.
Stop fooling and scaring yourself Tor.
"The Assassination of Hugo Chavez"
"By Greg Palast"
http://tinyurl.com/39do4w
Tor, I see that you finally become brave enough to ask questions of import to Quico.
But, please, note, he just censored Justin's challenge within this last hour.
Tor, take Quico''s propensity to obfuscate and censor as a sign that he is asking you to drink bad koolaid dude.
And be careful, or your comments will disappear over on Quico's blog as well.
These are the forces that you align with Tor: empires that maim kids and bomb villages, and psuedo-intellectual silver-spooners that will not tolerate differing ideas.
"Tor, and these vaunted 'markets' should tell you that capitalists can be fanatic, delusional, and irrational."
that means you don't know how competitive markets work. If you are wrong you lose. It is competitive and people try to make money. What is best about that is that if you BS, you lose big. So you better not BS.
The market is saying Chavez's reform and policies make it less likely bonds will get paid back.
Dictatorship? That was just some trader's opinion.
"``When you're transforming the political landscape into an effective dictatorship, that makes people nervous,'' said Jonathan Binder, who oversees $1.3 billion of emerging-market assets at INTL Consilium LLC in Fort Lauderdale, Florida and sold all his Venezuelan bonds."
that is exaggerated. nevertheless, the reform does reduce democracy by making elections less frequent and centralizing more power in the president.
No, Tor, you are incorrect: the reforms make VEnezelan society more democratic by codifying the communal councils--power will become more horizontally distributed.
More, the 'dictator' remark is supposed have its intended effect--to heighten investor nervousness about Venezuela.
Capitalists do sacrifice profit to bring down governments that threaten their long-term hegemony, and this is what is happening in Venezuela, part of bringing pressure on the economy.
Again, Tor, capitalist fears, greed, and irrationality cause them to lose profit all the time--and with the case of Venezuela, they are simply going off the charts (with help from the disinformation from corporate media).
Critical thinking and a sense of history Tor--these are your distinct weaknesses.
Tor, I'm a little inundated.
Give me until 5 and I'll respond to your points?
Slave is really a boss; but I'm a wage slave
And OW, our wage-slaves make twice as much as the boss, with half the hours per week.
Crapitalism sucks.
Tor, I was kind of a dick to you, but, bro, you are a bit too credulous at times.
The market talking Venezuela down over some mixed economy future reforms is simply hysterics.
Markets are irrational--and capitalists are diseaed in their core thinking.
What does it take for you to get this?--ending your subscription to The Economist would be a good first step.
"Give me until 5 and I'll respond to your points?"
No stress. Responding tomorrow is fine too.
Still playing your little Games into the wee hours instead of working??Boy will I laugh when it is all in vain !!
You will never get this one fact that will make all fail:
when something doesn't start from within and then work outwards there is no base and no reality.When you work from the outside and think you can go inwards, since you are not working from base, it is phony and unstable.
The reasons you don't see this are not your fault, because when people are damaged psychologically, they don't have this capacity, thus your narcissistic arrogance..and name calling.I know you have no clue here...
In actuality I will not laugh...because it is very sad that in this world people like you try to ruin it for everybody instead of getting the help you need to become better people.But it has so far been a truism that in general, the lowest common denominator vies for power.
If you are so afraid of corporations, educate the people...don't try to run governments and control people's lives...
Because you are doing this my conclusion is that you are hoping to benefit personally by other people's money
and glorify in the insistence of your deluded ideas....and last but not least:
prove to yourselves that you are good people, despite the guilt you obviously feel.
"VEnezelan society more democratic by codifying the communal councils--power will become more horizontally distributed."
This does not outweigh all the other stuff. Besides these CCs depend directly on a strengthen central government for funding.
"to heighten investor nervousness about Venezuela. "
increased centralization does make investors nervous. They know that increased centralization reduces the effectiveness of government in the long term.
"Capitalists do sacrifice profit to bring down governments that threaten their long-term hegemony"
This can't happen in a competitive market for bonds. Like I said you need to understand how competitive (did I say that already?) markets work.
"they are simply going off the charts (with help from the disinformation from corporate media)."
trading in bonds is based on whether investors think they will be paid back or not. Traders trade based on expectations about this. They compete and they invest big money. Whoever is wrong loses big.
SR,
I don't think OW is an oligarch. Give him time. Whatever his quibbles with the direction of the rveolution, the fact remains he's on the right (Chavista) side.
I don't think Firepig is the same as Kepler. The writing styles are too different. I doubt that Kepler would be talking about astrology, for one things.
It's good that the polls may be looking up a little bit. But I believe in always preparing for the worst. How are we going to spin this if the referendum fails? We need to be working right now on how to spin this in the state media so that it doesn't look too bad for Chavez.
Firepig,
Keep on criticizing the revolution. It's OK, I'm not going to get angry when you abuse Chavez any more. It doesn't matter....Chavez won't be driven out of power, even if the referendum fails, and certainly not because American blogs are against him. The more the Chavistas listen to your faulty ideas, the more they will be confirmed in their own faith in Chavez.
Qucio says...
"The polls aren't public in Venezuela because CNE banned publication a week ago. Which is why they have to get out either via the foreign press or yours truly.
Deliciously, since the government couldn't directly release that 30.06 "poll", they pimped the job out to their lobby in Wassington."
this may explain why the latest polls including the 30.11 poll are not public. I know the 30.11 slides are available, but how do you reconcile this with the publication ban...I'm confused.
"Whatever his quibbles with the direction of the rveolution, the fact remains he's on the right (Chavista) side. "
It is not really about right or wrong sides. It is about getting it right for Venezuela. No side will be right all the time. That is precisely why having a vibrant democracy is key.
ow sees this. He is not pro-Chavez, but pro-Venezuela. While other posters here will twist themselves around a lamppost to get a positive angle out of everything Chavez says or does ('you know, the reform increases democracy because of the CCs'), ow challenges Chavez when he thinks he is heading wrong.
The point of debating is figuring out what is best for Venezuela. It is not about winning for one side or the other. In fact, Chavismo would be so much stronger if it took this to heart.
The irony of Chavez at the moment is that ow would be like Baduel. He'd have been labelled a traitor by Chavez and likely insulted in public for simply disagreeing with some of Chavez's policies.
In the long term these attitudes will kill any political movement no matter how good its ideas.
here will twist themselves around a lamppost to get a positive angle out of everything Chavez says or does ('you know, the reform increases democracy because of the CCs'
Tor, the most profound change is not the CC's, in my humble opinion, its the inclusion of the People's power as a branch of governement(this includes the CC's).
I think that OW has totally downplayed this aspect of the reform entirely.
Fuck, this is starting to look like a set up:
http://www.globovision.com/news....s.php?
nid=72480
The US government has pointed out there won't be international observers so they claim people won't know if the votes really reflect the will of the Venezuelan people.
Could this be the 2004 Recall Referendum all over again? I hope not. But it is starting to look that way.
I'll know it is for sure if I start getting e-mails on Sunday at 1 pm claiming preliminary exit polls showing the NO winning by a large margin
Sorry not a branch of government but a form of territorial organization where economic, political and social power is exercised directly by the communities.
Of course I am not Kepler.If you think that any dopey reader can't see the difference...Yes, I actually predicted Chavez's win before he was a viable candidate...and now I predict his downfall.
...AMERICAN BLOGS??? Americans have no idea what is Venezuela and what is happening.
The Venezuelan people who many of you are struggling to understand, will take care of the situation.
Chavez has a lot of energy in the 12th house,the house of undoing...which means a lot of what he does is undone by his lonely self.....we wait, we see.There is a lot of power in intuitive knowledge, as well as logical thinking.Most men have a hard time with that which is the reason I guess that most of them work for us. we rule thank god because most of us are healthy and what we receive we give back to the children and to the world.Men are great doer's, but we have the wisdom.
I will leave you now with this thought so you can get back to the control tower.....
Shape note Sparrows take their places
On the wires of dawn.
As crying crazy neighbors give it a rest
“ your hand is carved like rivers in the South”
she said
so young to tell of fortunes
behind her diamond table her mother moved slow.
I thought he caught her glance,
Like the shadow of wings on a slate gray sea
“ you know your curse turns others into salt
and every day a million branches break like chimes
in the forest of your ice”
can you tell me something good? he asked
offer me some hope?
She turned a card, and
The nine of spades shrieked like crows.
She said nothing.
The women retreated past the silks
That hung like Latin flags
Stirred slightly by the breeze
A chill will come tonight, he thought
Although still thinking the day is fine
Chavez said: "Whoever votes for Yes votes for Chavez, whoever votes for No votes for George Bush". If that is not talking down to people, what is?
"No more missions, no more social programs, Venezuela out of OPEC, PDVSA privatized, etc., etc."
there is very little evidence for any of this. No politican campaigning in 2006 favored any of this. No politicans seem to be supporting any of these now. Yet you conclude - with almost certainty - that these will happen immediately with a change of government.
First thing, many times they don't say openly what they would do if elected. Did CAP in 88 say what he would do, or Caldera II? No, they said what they had to say to get elected, so you can't base this on what is said publically for an election.
But, there are plenty of other sources of information - party programs, books, analysis on the internet, actual actions from when they were in power, etc.
So lets look at this.
I say they will completely reverse Chavez's oil policy by both privating the oil industry AND disregarding OPEC quotas. And here is my evidence for saying that:
1) Read the PJ program that you can get from Katy at CC. They clearly state they want to give out shares of PDVSA to everyone - ie privatize it. They also say they would re-open the oil industry to private firms and review the royalty rates. They also DO NOT say they would abide by OPEC quotas but rather say they would work with OPEC when it is in Venezuela's interest.
2) Read the articles by Giusti and Sosa Pietri. They are very clear - they want Venezuela out of OPEC and they want PDVSA sold to the public (privatized). During the Carmona coup Giusti hurredly flew back to Venezuela - guess why. It is pretty clear if the opposition comes back to power one of these two will run the oil industry.
3) Read "Un Sueno para Venezuela" by Gerver Torres and "Seven proposals to re-make Venezuela" (by various authors) and they again argue against OPEC, against "rent seeking", and for privatization.
4) I have followed Venezuelan politics closely for years and I have only once, ONCE, heard an opposition supporter speak out in favor of OPEC and say that Venezuelan oil policy should be kept as it is under Chavez.
5) Ask the opposition bloggers. Francisco Toro says plainly that Venezuela should not be part of OPEC, or at least should not follow its quotas. Miguel Octavio is against OPEC and has said OPEC "only helps the Arabs".
So while I don't have a crystal ball any more than anyone else does I think you have to be willfully blind not to think the opposition will radically change Chavez's oil policies.
Now, you may favor that, Tor, as I believe you don't think Venezuela should necessarily follow OPEC 100% of the time and you support at least some level of privitization. That is fine. All that is another discussion. I am not argueing right now what is the best oil policy - simply who would follow what oil policy. And I think that should be pretty clear.
As to SENIAT, I don't think that is as much a clear cut case as the oil policy - I actually have heard SOME opposition supporters speakd favorably of SENIAT and Vilma-Mora. But they are few. And the number of business people and other opposition supporters I have heard complain about SENIAT is quite large.
No one likes paying taxes. Even people who want the government to have money don't like paying taxes. And wealthier people and business people in particular HATE taxes. So given that those are the core constituencies of the opposition any opposition government will probaby defang SENIAT (just like has happened to the IRS in the U.S.).
Now will they say that in a campaign? No, they won't. To get votes you have to campaign on the left. But once in office they will have a freer hand and will emasculate SENIAT. And remember, tax collection an active act. You have to actively seek taxes otherwise people evade them. So they don't have to get rid of SENIAT, they just have to make it less aggresive. Just like in the U.S. they help rich people evade taxes simply by having fewer audits by the IRS.
I think the present crowds are smaller while Chavez is speaking because they were asked to be there too early and many of them, who'd been there since this morning have left. Anyway, much smaller crowds than the opposition turned out.
Hopefully the ni-ni's will turn out and vote their conscience, against the increased presidential powers.
God bless Venezuela.
Are you kidding jsb? This is historic stuff. I'm hooked and I'm watching a dodgy video stream.
Chavez said that if any media start to reveal 'results' Sunday afternoon, they'd be taken off the air immediately.
As soon as he finished talking about that, Globovision felt safe enough to switch to covering the speech, complete with top-down unflattering shots of the crowd.
Whatever criticisms OW has with this referendum, he didn't call for a military putsch like some did. He is on the SI side.
I doubt if the opposition will want to win this one. If Chavez would lose, the battles move to the streets, where Chavez has the numbers.
I'm having an open thread this weekend at myu blog. Hands off Venezuela has a blog, which will be updated this weekend.
"If Chavez would lose, the battles move to the streets, where Chavez has the numbers."
So you're a typical Jacobin, advocating violence over democracy. Not suprising...
Now, as to the MIssions. Again, the opposition doesn't campaign openly against them. It can't, they are too popular.
But should we think that the opposition has now come to see them as good and would keep them? Hardly.
Take Barrio Adentro. They fought against it tooth and nail. When I talked to people in the CDIs they told me if you go to a doctor in private practice and show him anything from a CDI they will often refuse to treat you.
The educational missions are in the main disparaged by the opposition.
So I can't think of any Mission they would keep past when they absolutely have to.
Further, with a different oil policy and lower tax collection it is all but certain that the government will have a LOT less money. SENIAT just won't bring in as much. And if PDVSA starts making huge investments to ramp up production again it wil have less money to give to the government (not even accounting for what happens to oi prices). Even worse, if they give out shares of the oil industry to everyone then the government will get little or no revenue from the oil.
Now is that such a bad thing. From my perspective it is. But not from the oppositions perspective. They actually want to starve the government of revenue, much like Ronal Reagon wanted to "starve the beast" in the 1980s. So they will then be able to say "gee, its not that we dont' want to fund the social programs, but we just don't have the money".
Go back and read some of Quico's posts. He talks constantly of trying to find ways to kill off the "petrostate". He wants the government to have less money and less power. Again, I'm not argueing the merrits of that here, but I am telling you that is in the main the position of the people who oppose Chavez. And that is the direction they will take the country in
Well, the pro-Yes meeting has been a splendid and absolutelly overwhelming show of popular support for the reform. It will pass with a large favorable margin. This I have been saying for quite a while and I'm repeating it again. If anyone wants to bet to the contrary, I would be more than glad to oblige.
So you're a typical Jacobin, advocating violence over democracy. Not suprising...
jsb | 11.30.07 - 6:25 pm | #
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Man, can't you ever rise above such stupid and lame cliches?
Chavez said: "Whoever votes for Yes votes for Chavez, whoever votes for No votes for George Bush". If that is not talking down to people, what is?
grac | 11.30.07 - 5:29 pm | #
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And this is the autistic one-liner moron who wants to lecture me on "stupidity"?
Hahahaha
Go kiss the feet of your overinflated windbag Guru!
If Chavez would lose, the battles move to the streets, where Chavez has the numbers.
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We won't lose Renegade Eyes. We are in fact going to win by a considerable margin. But yes, the battle will continue at every level and at every dimension of societal life in Venezuela.
ow | Homepage | 11.30.07 - 6:03 pm | #
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Yes, you are absolutelly right on every single count. When revolutions fail, the pendulum always swings all the way in the opposite direction.
That hung like Latin flags
Stirred slightly by the breeze
A chill will come tonight, he thought
Although still thinking the day is fine
firepig5 | 11.30.07 - 4:23 pm | #
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Blah, blah, blah...Leper, please spare as your tasteless "poetic" kitsch.
In Venezuela there is a long tradition of undoing anything the former government did...you can count on it.I find this silly but it is a custom.Look at the teleferico and the helicoide
.
In theory the missions could be good, but they are too indoctrinating and pushy..
starving the beasts helps corruption...just like here in the States..any teacher knows that it only takes a place to sit, and freedom,a cheap blackboard and some pencils and paper to teach.We need a talented and dedicated teacher that is all..but when the government wants to fund programs to help Hispanics learn English, to help the bad students improve their scores etc.....some corrupt teacher gets a grant for 40,000 , pays the lead teacher 2,000, buys 800 dollars worth of books and pockets the rest...then goes home to rest...this is one of the main type of carrot dangling for those who favor big governments and social programs.
I taught school for many years and was an ultra dedicated teacher, underpaid of course, but it was worth it...but most people in the world are easy to corrupt, and the more money they can get from government, the more corrupt they get.
Battle on the streets? The problem is not the numbers but the guns and arms that Chavistas have, and their thug backgrounds...so many Chavistas are criminals who threaten the poor masses
so many Chavistas are criminals who threaten the poor masses
--------------------------------
Dropping the "poetic" charade Leper and falling back on your typical and quite grotesque rants?
http://dj.com.ve/paginasPdf/Portada.pdf
NO MARCH (grab this quickly)
http://radiomundial.com.ve/yvke/...oad.php?
id=1413
SI MARCH
http://radiomundial.com.ve/yvke/...oad.php?
id=1392
my desktop background for this weekend!
http://radiomundial.com.ve/yvke/...oad.php?
id=1381
OK THIS IS THE MARCH FOR NO
I think it is probable that the Sí wins on sunday, but I as, ow, fear that the worst case scenario is a victory by a little margin, for several reasons that I could later explain.
In any case, I'm pretty sure that the margin won't be 60% to 40% but in any case much less than that. This reform definitely created a fisure in the militant chavista base, and we still has to see how chavez sympathisers base (the less comited ones) end up voting.
I'm not even talking about Podemos (one might reasonably think that some of the 700.000 votes that Chavez got from them on the presidentials will not vote for him like a Podemos major that yesterday
campaigned for No yesterday here in San Cristóbal), or Baduel or Marisabel.
Take a look at some of these links:
Roland Denis from Movimiento 13 de Abril and former Viceminister during 2002-2003:
http://www.aporrea.org/actualida...dad/
a45330.html
"NO VOTO NI POR EL SI NI POR EL NO EN ESTE REFERENDUM, SENCILLAMENTE NO VOTO, PRECISAMENTE POR ESO, PORQUE SE TRATA DE UNA REFORMA O UN NUEVO FORMATO DE ESTADO QUE AHORA LLAMAN “SOCIALISTA” DONDE NO HAY NI UNA SOLA BRIZNA DE PUEBLO REFLEXIVO Y HACEDOR QUE ESTE PRESENTE EN ELLA."
Orlando Chirinos and other CCURA and UNT leaders:
http://argentina.indymedia.org/n...7/11/
566128.php
"No es cierto que se consolida el poder popular. Se incrementan los porcentajes electorales para revocar mandatos; se niega el derecho al voto para escoger a los vicepresidentes regionales, que los elegirá el Presidente de la República... así como graves restricciones a las garantías democráticas como la libertad de información. "
There has been a discussion of lately where some die hard defendants of the reform have treated Heinz Dieterich (the guy that invented the term "Socialismo del Siglo XXI") in some really hard terms like in this article by Alan Woods. Dieterich eventually called to vote for the Sí option as "the lesser of two evils".
Orlando Chirinos published an article today at aporrea asking James Petras to publicly rectify for demonizing trotskism.
---
One interesting last link. Jessy Chacón recently did a "rosalada" and didn't even notice. I saw Globovisión repeat the video clip like thirty times in a short while this afternoon.
http://www.aporrealos.com/forum/...opic.php?
t=5130
This reform definitely created a fisure in the militant chavista base
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Nonsense. There are some dissenters, but they are an insignificant minority within the revolution. I respect some of them -such as Chirinos for example- while disagreeing on tactical issues. The militant revolutionary base (I will never use the shallow and silly term "chavista" to define it) is solidly behind the reforms.
Dieterich eventually called to vote for the Sí option as "the lesser of two evils".
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
I used to have a modicum of respect for Dieterich (and no, he didn't coin the term Socialismo del siglo XXI. To Dieterich's chagrin, it was Chilean sociologist and socialist Tomás Moulián who did) but his quite weak and dubious position regarding Baduel's shameful performance, has greatly diminished his image in my eyes.
Nonsense. There are some dissenters, but they are an insignificant minority within the revolution. I respect some of them -such as Chirinos for example- while disagreeing on tactical issues. The militant revolutionary base (I will never use the shallow and silly term "chavista" to define it) is solidly behind the reforms.
----------
We will have to wait till sunday and see... I'm only speculating (as so are you). But I have to say that I'm basically an observer and I like to follow trends and to read between lines:
The government changed radically it's strategy, from defending the ideas behind the reform and converted it into a plesbicit. Chavez just said in Ave. Bolívar that voting Sí was voting for him and voting No was voting for Bush (????).
The opposition has done the opposite. While on the election for the National Assembly deputies they called not to vote (they knew they would loose and they needed to maintain the idea that they were a majority and that Chavez won by fraud). Instead they are all calling for their militants to vote.
I'm not the only one that has that impression. Take a look at this article published today at aporrea (I have seen several like that of lately):
http://www.aporrea.org/oposicion...ion/
a45876.html
I'm only speculating (as so are you)
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No, I'm not. Weekly polls ran by the revolution have consistently shown a margin oscillating between 12% to 20% in favor of the reforms.
I used to have a modicum of respect for Dieterich (and no, he didn't coin the term Socialismo del siglo XXI. To Dieterich's chagrin, it was Chilean sociologist and socialist Tomás Moulián who did) but his quite weak and dubious position regarding Baduel's shameful performance, has greatly diminished his image in my eyes.
.......
I rectify: He popularized it. In any case, he was recognized, until a few weeks ago, as a very important ideologue for the revolution. Besides, I remember that what Dieterich said was basically that both the NO and the SÍ factions used fallacies to defend their positions and that the best way to reach a middle ground would have been to vote each of the reforms individually, and I read many personal attacks where they called him "vendido", "mercader de la izquierda", "punta de lanza de la contrarrevolución" and plenty of ad hominem crap.
I must add that I do greatly respect many of Dieterich's ideas and proposals.
The government changed radically it's strategy, from defending the ideas behind the reform and converted it into a plesbicit. Chavez just said in Ave. Bolívar that voting Sí was voting for him and voting No was voting for Bush (????).
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What is your point? It has been a plebiscite all along. Isn't it quite obvious that voting for the reforms is voting for Chávez and viceversa? How can you separate the dream from the dreamer, the music from the instruments that play it, the flavor from the food, etc.? You simply can't. And that is something that even the most humble supporters of the revolution seem to know quite well, without needing Chávez to tell them so. Chávez is simply making explicit what we all know fairly well.
he was recognized, until a few weeks ago, as a very important ideologue for the revolution.
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Certainly not by me sir. I have always perceived him as just one among many, regardless of his pretentions...besides, the man writes like shit (one of those convoluted, heavy-handed and somewhat dense Teutonic intellectuals), although I admit he has many interesting and valuable ideas.
and I read many personal attacks where they called him "vendido", "mercader de la izquierda", "punta de lanza de la contrarrevolución" and plenty of ad hominem crap.
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Well, that is certainly deplorable and I would never condone such attacks. But what the heck, there are idiots in every single walk of life. It seems to come with the human territory.
No, I'm not. Weekly polls ran by the revolution have consistently shown a margin oscillating between 12% to 20% in favor of the reforms.
----
Government paid polls by Consultores 30-31 (?), Galarraga (?), Veneopsa (?).
I got to me that the Seijas tracking poll that VTV announced anounced on the tv propaganda read that 61% of the people believed that the SI would win (not that they were going to vote for the SI option, which is different). The abstentionists might not vote due to their belief on the inevitability of some result.
But hey, I won't question your convictions.
moyhabin, so little you know of music,,,,...if the music and musician were one, nothing would be played...when the oneness is alluded to, it refers to the oneness within the musician himself,or the alignment of all centers from within.The body, the heart and the mind attuned to the piece.
The musical piece is interpreted by the musician as he is a separate entity.
I am sure if you played Scriabin, there is no end to the difference we will hear between the piece and you.
So stick to Gangster rap, that it is more your style, and stop trying to use poetic metaphor, because a poet you aint...
For your enjoyment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S...h?
v=SxUNCqZoqMA
Government paid polls by Consultores 30-31 (?), Galarraga (?), Veneopsa (?).
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No. Internal polls designed only for internal consumption. The revolution needs to follow carefully the unfolding of public opinion and know exactly what is going on at each step of the process. These polls are not divulged, because of course no one besides us would take them seriously. But beleive me, we need to know exactly the truth and have a clear prospect of the terrain we are walking on, so we are very rigorous. We are not walking blid folded over such a dangerous political terrain. We are not stupid.
Domingo, I understand that you suffered a violent robbery--but your pessimism and alliance with Baduel and Deitrich is misplaced.
Maintaining tepid reformism will not see oligarchy weakened in Venezuela--and it will maintain conditions that allow for the return with vengence.
I expect that some of the rightwing of the Bolivarian project with align with the opposition. Yes, fear of the underclass and losing class privliedge are palpable.
Hector, you think that we should start 'spinning' for Chavez now--so that we will be prepared when he loses?
All I can say, Hector, is that with your attitudinal inclinations, I don't see how you could ever get laid in your entire life. You reek of looserism.
Sorry to be insulting--but you are asking us to slap you around a little. Your attitude is pathetic--especially juxtaposed with your stalinesque posturing in some of your past comments, and your deep homophobia.
I would be heartened to know that you are really a troll supporter of the opposition.
I am predicting Chavez wins with 57%.
firepig5 | 11.30.07 - 8:14 pm | #
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Carry on Leper, you are a boring and predictable idiot with whom no decent and normal human being can carry an intelligent dialogue.
What is your point? It has been a plebiscite all along. Isn't it quite obvious that voting for the reforms is voting for Chávez and viceversa?
----
Chavez on august 15:
“… ¡Que viva la crítica! ¡Que viva el pensamiento crítico!.. Que se abra, pues, desde hoy el debate rumbo a la discusión, rumbo a la crítica, rumbo a la campaña que habrá que hacer para el referéndum aprobatorio, así espero de esta propuesta….”
I thought the point behind the reform was: "I have some ideas for better improving the revolution: study them, read them, critizise them, debate them and then propose".
And then I thought that the Constitution and the democratic institutions in general had to be on a greater, intemporal level, way above any individualities (even if it is Chavez).
I think it is very sad if voting for the reform equals voting for Chavez, because that would mean admiting that it is a taylor made proposal designed just for his own benefit instead of the people's.
But hey, I won't question your convictions.
Domingo | Homepage | 11.30.07 - 8:09 pm | #
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Why not? Please do. It's your prerrogative and it's more fun.
I thought the point behind the reform was: "I have some ideas for better improving the revolution: study them, read them, critizise them, debate them and then propose".
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This has been extensively done. But then again, what is your point?
I am predicting Chavez wins with 57%.
Slave Revolt | 11.30.07 - 8:20 pm | #
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You are probably right brother, but I'm more inclined towards these numbers: Yes: 62%; No: 37%; Null: 1%.
Domingo, what I learned from being in the academy--engaging the latest 'radical' theories--is that most of the so called left-liberals were really more aligned with the status quo than with the working class. They laden their discourse with so much pretentious jargon that they cannot be understood by average citizens. More, when you strip away the jargon, you are left with mostly truisms and some points that, while interesting, are hardly radical.
This is especially true with cultural and literary theory in the academy.
No, Dietrich never impressed me--and his bosom buddy Baduel impressed me even less.
This has been extensively done. But then again, what is your point?
---
You were the one who brought up the dreamer-dream metaphore. The reform was brought up by Chavez but it the last instance it should be Venezuela's constitution not his constitution.
All I can say, Hector, is that with your attitudinal inclinations, I don't see how you could ever get laid in your entire life. You reek of looserism.
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Hahahaha
You shouldn't have said that SR. Now the Leperpig and Golden Toy will start hitting on poor Hector.
The reform was brought up by Chavez but it the last instance it should be Venezuela's constitution not his constitution.
Domingo | Homepage | 11.30.07 - 8:31 pm | #
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Exactly. But then again, what is your damn point for pete's sake?
I'm not saying that the reform cannot win, but I think it will be with 52% of the vote at the most (as I said I'm guessing here).
Gotta go... tomorrow I'll check how this discussion unfolds.
Domingo, yeah, sure, the reforms presented really stand to benefit Chavez more than most of the Venezuelan people. Yeah, right.
If you believe this, then you should vote with 'no'. By all means.
If you don't support Chavez and the vision that he and his political allies are advancing, you should not pretend anymore. The opposition will welcome a converted lefty--but they will simply make a mockery of any progressive politics that you believe you support. They will use you for propaganda purposes--and maybe throw a few bucks your way--but they will stomp all over you as they dismantle any left reforms and as they try to heal the country's relationship with the empire.
Turning it into a plesbicit means that you have to accept the entire content of the proposal like it or not, because it is either you are with Chavez or not.
It is like a metaphore I read some days ago:
- Hey waiter there's a fly in my soup.
- Well you have to eat it all, even the fly.
Chavez has done a great job but the reform was not about him
- Hey waiter there's a fly in my soup.
- Well you have to eat it all, even the fly.
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Now that was a very insightful metaphor. NOT.
And yes, the reform is, among many other things, about it's main proponent and creator: Hugo Chávez. Again, how can you separate the music from the instruments that generate it? Let's don't fool ourselves: there would have been no important changes and a revolution in venezuela if Chávez had never existed. Many crucial objective conditions would have existed, but there would have been a need for a catalist such as Chávez to set the whole thing in motion. For all we know, Perú or México may be ready right now for revolutionary changes, but lacking the appropriate leadership (catalist) favorable conditions will gradually dissolve into nothingness. Wheteher we like it or not, the role of personalities in human collective affairs remains decisive.
Avila,
"in my humble opinion, its the inclusion of the People's power as a branch of governement(this includes the CC's)."
How exactly does this work? It may have been downplayed, but maybe this is because it is not very significant. For instance, how would the people get more power through this mechanism?
ow,
it is somewhat odd observers are not present. I would invite them if I were the government just in case. If the election is fair, having them - especially in a polarized place like Ven - never hurts.
That being said I don't think obervers are crucial this time. The US could just read Quico's fraud post. Combined with the 06 elections fraud is unlikely - and likely to be discovered if present.
Personality matters??
then you are screwed because chavez is decompensating rapidly..even from the start he was narcissistic at best
Now you are making sense Leperpig...hahaha...what is that called, poetic license?
In fact what you guys need Leperpig, is a real leader. I mean, not a bumbling fool like Rosales or a babbling mummie such as Petkoff, or a young brainless goon as Yongo, but a real leader: someone like Bush, for example. Hahahahaha
"They also say they would re-open the oil industry to private firms and review the royalty rates."
Neither policy is incompatible with following the same OPEC policy as Chavez.
"They also DO NOT say they would abide by OPEC quotas but rather say they would work with OPEC when it is in Venezuela's interest."
...but they also don't say they won't. This may be purposefully vague. I mean do you think Chavez would follow OPEC quotes if it were not in Venezuela's best interest i.e. if he disagreed with the quotas?
"It is pretty clear if the opposition comes back to power one of these two will run the oil industry."
That is speculative. In any event politicans are supposed to control PDVSA. The PJ program does not indicate otherwise.
"Seven proposals to re-make Venezuela" (by various authors) and they again argue against OPEC, against "rent seeking", and for privatization."
It is unclear these proposals would be implemented by an alternative government.
In any event, it is also unclear that a privatized PDVSA is bad for Venezuela. I have long argued that a privatized PDVSA - if stricted regulated and with strong oversight from the government - would probably produce higher inflows to government coffers and allow increased spending (or saving).
A privatized PDVSA (in my view split into several companies) would strive to maximize profits in a competitive industry, but subject to royalties, regulations, taxes and quotas. Due to increased efficiency (and less conflict of interest - RR would just be MEM not MEM and CEO) the people should see more oil money. but like you said this is not a debate about the best oil policy, but a debate about what an alternative government would do.
"ONCE, heard an opposition supporter speak out in favor of OPEC and say that Venezuelan oil policy should be kept as it is under Chavez."
Venezuela followed OPEC quotas until the emergencies of the 90s. In an emergency even Chavez may be tempted to cheat. Who knows.
By the way, 'Venezuelan oil policies should be keep the same' encompasses many different dimensions. OPEC is just one of them. Few opponents want to keep everything intact, but similarly few call for Venezuela to leave OPEC or ignore quotas. In fact, I struggle to reconcile Chavez's production increases with future quotas.
What did Rosales think? I forgot. Did he have a position?
...in conclusion, I am not saying you are wrong, but you don't seem to have evidence to make your prediction so strongly.
Especially your argument along to lines of:
1. new gov.
2. bust quotas
3. oil price falls
4. OPEC falls apart
5. oil revenues fall
6. economic meltdown
...is based on many, many strong assumptions.
"What is your point? It has been a plebiscite all along. Isn't it quite obvious that voting for the reforms is voting for Chávez and viceversa? How can you separate the dream from the dreamer, the music from the instruments that play it, the flavor from the food, etc.? You simply can't."
I disagree. They are seperate. The constitution organizes how you run your country. It is independent of your leader. Lets say Chavez had died a month ago. Would have advocated cancelling the reform? Would it then be irrelevant.
In fact, if Chavez were not around what would you favor? Handing the country back over to the opposition? Do you think this movement has no future without this one person?
Personally, I think any movement that depends on one person is doomed to failure, and probably even deserves to fail.
"And the number of business people and other opposition supporters I have heard complain about SENIAT is quite large."
...but they do this in most countries.
"So given that those are the core constituencies of the opposition any opposition government will probaby defang SENIAT (just like has happened to the IRS in the U.S.)."
...but governments love spending. SENIAT provides money to spend. However, the biggest achievement of Mora has been to ensure compliance and force EVERYONE to pay. I doubt any honest government would want to ruin this.
Taxation is somewhat bizarre in Venezuela due to high oil income. Normal people don't pay taxes so taxation only hits the weathly in Venezuela.
I am actually a big fan of simple taxation. Simple rules that make evasion hard. The rich and businesses mostly exploit loopholes and tax breaks (and these create economic distortions). Also tax breaks are often used to gain favors in some way. Better to tax in a simple and equal way across businesses and people. By equal I don't mean a flat tax.
I still predict that Chavez will win but it is funny how the guy has lost his marbles. Fasten your seat belts, things are going to get crazy.
"the opposition has now come to see them as good and would keep them? Hardly."
they'd probably keep some, ditch others and reform them. Reforming some of them may not be bad. Besides it is unclear that the missions are sustainable if oil takes a plunge.
"The educational missions are in the main disparaged by the opposition. "
but that is because of perceived indoctrination. They might keep them (actually I like the intent behind these missions), but reform them so they are more accountable and not one-sided.
"o I can't think of any Mission they would keep past when they absolutely have to."
Venezuela has a long history of social missions of different types and names. It goes with much of the populist petrostate tradition. I doubt any alternative government would cut them too much.
"And if PDVSA starts making huge investments to ramp up production again it wil have less money to give to the government"
yeah, but that is nature of the beast when you invest. You sacrifice now for arguably bigger revenues in the future. Remember the Korea discussion?
"Even worse, if they give out shares of the oil industry to everyone then the government will get little or no revenue from the oil."
the revenue does not disapear. People would have more money. Besides the SENIAT could tax it too.
Even if an alternative government does do these things, there are many good things that might come out of such a government. They'd probably do more to get investment in other industries. They'd probably fix that exchange rate. They'd probably get rid of price controls. Rosales even argued for 4 year Presidential periods. Sure, I'm speculating, but you should not just focus on the bad...
http://www.vtv.gob.ve/VTV(reload...lle.php?
id=9663
I agree with grac. No marbles in this speech.
he seems more desperate. He is not arguing the merits of the reform, but instead resorts to distractions (Spain, US, Colombia) and threats. He's back to the 'Bush-or-me' thing, CIA plots etc. He seems to have completely given up campaigning for the reform and is doing his best to turn it into a Chavez-or-traitor thing. Even he knows the reforms are unpopular and it will be close.
"Yes, you are absolutelly right on every single count. When revolutions fail, the pendulum always swings all the way in the opposite direction."
not necessarily. Radical regimes are not always followed by radical regimes on the other side...
Well, it is not Chávez who has invented the CIA or the US government, it is a real threat and their lackeys are right now the only realistic alternative to the Chávez government.
And, because of the strength of the revolution, it will not be crushed by anything less than a blood-bath as in Indonesia or Guatemala. There is no steady middle-ground to stand on, this is the logic of revolution and counter-revolution.
If you people here who call yourselves bolivarians or socialists don´t like the alternatives and only see the problems and not the essential, that is the massive hope that the revolution instills in tens of millions of opressed people in Latin America and the world, I don´t think you were cut out for participating in the revolutionizing of society from the start.
I am sorry OW and others, I especially respect the work that OW has put done and keeps doing, but I just can´t stand your relation to politics as in some ways something only in the "idea sphere", where you can abstractly choose between a range of proposals and ideas.
Fine, take your critisisms of the reforms (I agree with some of them) into an open discussion, but to fail to take a stand for the "si" is to me a sign of a nearly complete lack of understandning of that a revolution is a struggle between social groups, where the radicalization of the revolution is the product of the resistance of counter-revolution, and the polarization of society is a necessary law stemming from this societal division.
The question of whether we want "si" or "no" to win is in reality not abstract, but extremely concrete. I see that you also point this out in one of your latest blog posts, which is good...but I can´t understand how this hasn´t ocurred to you before, and how you can make it into a minor question.
Everything is at stake with a "no" this sunday: not just the good reforms in the package, but the constitution of 1999, democracy itself and the security of millions of venezuelans.
I think that Salvador Allende for example made many bad choices (of which Chávez have learned), but I would never have dreamed of not supporting his government´s policies when put to a concrete vote, facing the resistance of counter-revolution.
What I would really be greatful for would be this;
That you write a bit more about Operation Pliers and the signifance of it, and that you come out for a "critical vote for Si" or something like that. But that´s up to you. I hope you don´t take this the wrong way, you do a great job of reporting on Venezuela, but this point I really don´t agree with you.
talking about assholes, check out how the idiot-fanatized chavistas sabotage a speech by flying 4 helicopters at the same time at very low hight with thousands of people bellow them. Yes, i know is not the same subject, but what the hell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8...h?
v=8fa2YamVjAI
If you don't support Chavez and the vision that he and his political allies are advancing, you should not pretend anymore.
-------
For the record:
I will vote No, and no I don't believe in the false dichotomy of "vote against me and you will be voting for Bush".
As for my "lefty" credentials, well you know my stances over a long time. As a weird note I can tell you that my current job consists in the development of systems to automate Consejos Comunales's work, specifically the processing of Censos Comunitarios de Viviendas, Hogares y Personas, and the generation of the subsequent Fichas Comunitarias, so it is not a matter of pretending anything.
I understand pretty well the ideas behind both the fourth and fifth revolutionary motors (Nueva Geometría del Poder and Explosión del Poder Popular, respectively) and the implications, both good and bad, that would result from this reform regarding those issues and many others.
I sincerily hope that the option that wins results in the best for the country (I accept that there could be a possibility that I might be wrong), so good luck to you all.
See you on sunday night. It it will be very interesting to discuss the final numbers of the vote.
"Wrapping up his campaign for changes to the Constitution before tens of thousands of supporters in Caracas, President Hugo Chávez delivered a speech threatening the moneyed elite, investors from Spain, foreign correspondents, the United States and “pitiyanquis,” a term loosely translated as “Yankee lovers.” He also ordered soldiers to occupy oil installations ahead of the referendum tomorrow, threatening to cut off oil exports to the United States in the event of American interference. “Who votes yes is for Chávez,” he said. “Who votes no is voting for George W. Bush.” Mr. Chávez devoted almost none of his speech to the 69 amendments in the vote, which would centralize power in the president’s hands and abolish his term limits. He said he could see himself ruling until 2050, when he would turn 96. The tensions led the United States to break its silence."
...if you ever wondered why the referendum is close at all just spend some time analyzing the Chavez campaign. Yesterday's speech had none of Chavez's magic in connecting with the 'people'.
That's fine Domingo.
In the final analysis I think people then to vote congruent with their perceived social and class benefit--whether they recognize it or not. And very rare are people that enjoy class priviledge that align themselves with subordinant classes toward the prgression of egalitarian or socialist ends.
I do see voting no as aligning with the empire and the oligarchy.
But I understand as this moves forward the softer support among the traditionally more privildged will peel off.
And I also see Baduel and Deitherch as real enemies of socialism--no matter how much the latter tries to worm his way out of the bed that he has made.
"...if you ever wondered why the referendum is close at all just spend some time analyzing the Chavez campaign. Yesterday's speech had none of Chavez's magic in connecting with the 'people'.
Tor | 12.01.07 - 4:27 am | #
Tor, your sure doing a lot of posting here all of the sudden, you are indeed nervous.
You are not a reliable judge as to what 'connects with the people' given the pro-oligarch policies that are at the heart of your political stance.
Chavez has kicked your capitalist ass from one side of the street to another--and used The Economist for toilet paper. So, please, to to Quico's blog and delude each other that Chavez is unpopular, that the 'no' is gaining momentem, etc, etc.
But, hey, if I were Tor I wouldn't like the reforms to pass either--because this will signal a real barrier toward the Venezuelan rightwing regaining hegemony over Venezuela.
At least here, Tor, you will note that your comments will not be censored--and this in a nutshell signifies why the politics of the rightwing are inferior at this juncture. It is not about bringing the society up together--but about exploiting the peoples labor power and resources toward the benefit of empire and oligarchy.
Deitherch at least finally recommend voting for Si. I doubt any true friend of the revolution even consider voting for No. Hopefully everyone rallies behind Si at this critical stage.
For those that want to "freeze" the revolution at a social democratic stage, i doubt this is possible in a dominated oilrich country like Venezuela. No "deals" can be made with imperialsm and the oligarchy here. If the revolution is not deepend the social base will slowly grow tired and apatic. And imperialsm will sooner or later take back its control over Venezuelas oil resources
I totally agree elliv.
At the most, I could see abstaining from the vote--but voting with the empire and the rightwing....
I simply cannot fathom that type of thinking.
But, I stand by my observation from the study of past left-progressive movments--people will generally vote with their class interests. This is a truism, and that is why it is such an important, elemental observation.
(i wonder if he went to the 'no' rally with his extended family )
Interesting that Domingo didn't make it clear that he was voting 'no' from the beginning of his comments.
Similar inclinations accumulate together--Baduel and Deitrich are two of a kind.
OW, i agree with you...nothing could be more corruptible than a government that depends on one person...people can sit around and argue hypothetical policy all day, and waste their time...that is certainly their prerogative, but when the base of all is a one man narcissistic clown ..well everything eventually will boil down to the base.
Moyhabin, you insistence on calling me pigleper does not in the least offend me...however it does show the world your childishness and your moral inferiority to call anyone a name like that, much less a female, senior citizen, and mother.
If we disagree on politics, it is not in anyway a reflection on me as a person..however your dark ways and name calling does ...if you are representing anything important, every time you do it, it just digs the hole deeper for all of you.
I am a not representing anyone in any official way ,only myself , and calling me makes me think that you must a very young, and disturbed person
A real revolution depends on 'one person'--because there is no real contradiction between the one and the many.
Every person is important toward a real revolutionary goal--because, unlike in distorted, grotesque capitalism, every person is truely equal, and their contribute according to their unique abilities that cannot merely be duplicated under regiems of alienated and dominated labor.
The idea that the Bolviarian project is totally dependent on one person, however, is a delusion perpetuated by reality as it appears in societies ruled by oligarchy. They project the inherent weakness of their own system to the systems that the oppose and work to destroy.
Without the will of the people pushing revolutionary change forward there would be no Chavez. And, without Chavez there would be no revolutionary project to push forward--Venezuela would continue under the thrall of US-style consumer neoliberal hyper-exploitation.
Is it any wonder that the best thinking of the supporters of the US empire and capitalism created so much deep poverty? Of course not--because their goal is to enrich the few, not the many.
Sorry, Firepig, but I think that you are the same person as The Leper. But it is nice that you expand your frame of imagination by claiming that you are a mother and a wife. If I was inclined that way, I might put a wig on you, shave your facial hair and chest, send you for a silicon implants and make you my 'wife'
But, alas, Kepler, I don't swing that way. But, hey, whatever your kink is, I don't mind--as long as you leave animals and kids alone and don't hurt anyone, all is well. Peace Leper.
The most simple content analysis of your posts unveils your true identity, Leperpig. So please spare yourself further embarrassment, and stop this pathetic charade. Go take care of your grandchildren and don't forget to wear that red dress, SR suggested. You look so pretty with it, your pumps and your clean shaven face.
If I was inclined that way, I might put a wig on you, shave your facial hair and chest, send you for a silicon implants and make you my 'wife'
---------------------------------------
Hahahahaha
Yesterday's speech had none of Chavez's magic in connecting with the 'people'.
Tor | 12.01.07 - 4:27 am | #
-----------------------
Thank you for this amazing insight Tor. Your assessments of popular Venezuelan sentiments are invaluable -especially knowing as we know that you have a very modest station in life, grew up very poor and racially discriminated, and have attended every single revolutionary rally in Venezuela.
Yesterday's speech had none of Chavez's magic in connecting with the 'people'.
Tor | 12.01.07 - 4:27 am | #
what are you talking about? our great chief/king/warlord talked beautifully.... he almost made me cry when he talked about going out to the streets and fight anybody who didn´t feel confortable with the results, wich he is now sure he is going to win, even with all the polls saying the countrary
not to mention his treat to nationalize spanish banks in Venezuela, just to give a lesson to that mean king...no way someone is going to shut up our great leader. I think he handled it "cool".
ahh, and the most inspiring part: "if you vote for the NO you vote against me" that was magic. If you dont like this proposal of constitution you are treatening my government...you dont like some of the stuff, shit, obey and vote for it, this is the empire, the CIA, the pentagon, the FBI, NYPD, Men in Black, Bush we are fighting, theres no room for doubts....fuck!
what are you talking about? our great chief/king/warlord talked beautifully....
-----------------------------
See guys, is this kind of idiotic rhetoric that turns you into the laughing stock of the world. And against my best desire to be kind towards someone plagued by such obvious mental shortcomings, I have to say Pedrito, that you are one of those who indulges the most in this kind of cretinous language.
Elliv et al. so according to your logicl anything that Chavez had proposed should be passed, just because it is Chavez.
The notion that a Constitution should be there to regulate the lives of the people of Venezuela, independently of who is in power, does not exist in your political language.
In that case, why is it necessary to have a Constitution? Just give all the power to Chavez let him decide everything, why going into a charade of proposing Reforms and amendments?
Moyhabin, long time no see. Still waiting for your rebuttal, step by step of my Fractal Reform post...
http://cuentosintrascendentes.bl...ma-
fractal.html
Thank you for the reminder Bruni. Eventually I will visit your blog and engage you on that subject. Right now, I'm simply waiting for the referendum to take place after working hard (and not virtually, but by hitting the streets) towards a victory for our side. I think we shall prevail vis-a-vis the oppostion's electoral results, but I will not deny the fact that I'm concerned about the possibility of high abstentionism.
Erik ANdersson:
You make a lot of good points.
I am truly conflicted about what the correct way to vote on this would be.
I think too many aspects of this reform are bad PLUS this government really needs a shot across the bow because I think it has just become too arrogant over the past year.
At the same time, I sure as well don't want this government to fail and the opposition people to get back in power. And of course, voting against the reform risks doing that.
Thank god I don't vote.
And by the way, I could imagine many feel like I do and are only going to make up their minds when they are standing in front of the machine. So the polls might not mean that much. If I were polled up to this point I probably would have said "NO". But could I really vote "NO"? I don't know. There is a very visceral feeling that the right thing to do is vote "SI"
OW, the opposition will not go back in power if the NO wins, that's the Chavista propaganda put in place so that people that like Chavez vote blindly for the Reform, even if they do not agree with it.
If the NO wins, it will send Chavez the message that he did not do things the right way and that they may like him, may like his programs but there are many things they did not like about the Reform.
I have said it before and say it again. This Reform was an imposition from above, not a Reform that came from the legitimate will of the people of Venezuela.
Chavez needs a correction and I hope that the people of Venezuela will send him a message.
See guys, is this kind of idiotic rhetoric that turns you into the laughing stock of the world. And against my best desire to be kind towards someone plagued by such obvious mental shortcomings, I have to say Pedrito, that you are one of those who indulges the most in this kind of cretinous language.
Moyhabin | 12.01.07 - 11:25 am | #
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------------------------------
try living 9 years with a clown/coup leader in power, then we can talk about mental shortcomings.
"And of course, voting against the reform risks doing that."
Not really. Chavez is personally very popular. He has the enabling law. He controls most institutions. None of that would change with a No.
"Thank you for this amazing insight Tor. Your assessments of popular Venezuelan sentiments are invaluable -especially knowing as we know that you have a very modest station in life, grew up very poor and racially discriminated, and have attended every single revolutionary rally in Venezuela."
You managed to say nothing here. What did you think of Chavez's speech yesterday? How does it compare to previous efforts?
Tor, I see that master Quico has 'no' winning by ten points now!
Oligarch dreams.
"I doubt any true friend of the revolution even consider voting for No. Hopefully everyone rallies behind Si at this critical stage."
Chavez has all the power and will still have all the power after this vote. Why not vote for the reform based on its merits? I mean this echos exactly the sentiments of Chavez's speech yesterday. Vote for me or Bush. Be with me or be a traitor.
SR,
Lets analyze the quality of your post.
"Tor, your sure doing a lot of posting here all of the sudden, you are indeed nervous."
Personal attack.
"You are not a reliable judge as to what 'connects with the people' given the pro-oligarch policies that are at the heart of your political stance."
Maybe. Why?
"Chavez has kicked your capitalist ass from one side of the street to another--and used The Economist for toilet paper. So, please, to to Quico's blog and delude each other that Chavez is unpopular, that the 'no' is gaining momentem, etc, etc."
Does not say much. Does not say anything about why Quico's posts are deluding.
"At least here, Tor, you will note that your comments will not be censored--and this in a nutshell signifies why the politics of the rightwing are inferior at this juncture. It is not about bringing the society up together--but about exploiting the peoples labor power and resources toward the benefit of empire and oligarchy."
Old stuff that you repeat again and again without really providing local arguments or facts. There is really nothing I can debate that you said. It is just vague rhetoric.
Take the environmental stuff. I challenged you to give me concrete things you would do or fight for. What did you give me? You basically said: Capitalism is evil. It indoctrinates and dulls people's critical thought. Get rid of capitalism and people will start thinking critically. They will come up with the solutions to ecological disaster. Done. In other words, you didn't answer the challenge. What are these things people will come up with. Give me 10 things you'd do or fight for.
Keep in mind that
1. people in the US, but especially Europe have grown more environmentall friendly (and many laws have been passed) in the last 3 decades. Simultaneously, capitalism - if anything - has gotten stronger.
2. Other regimes and systems have if anything been even more callous polluters than countries with mostly free markets and healthy democracies.
Most of your posts are this way. You are big on personal attacks. You are big on colorful preaching. You are short on facts and logic. You don't debate or engage.
I remember I told you something about vague ranting and raving before. You replied that you found my ranting amusing to. However, stop a second and consider what ranting is. I try to provide reasons, numbers, facts, and arguments and refrain from personal attacks. You seem to relish doing the opposite.
Look at Chris (GIV) in comparison. He holds similar views, but he is interested. He debates, researches, engages and tries to present cogent arguments.
Why this all of a sudden? Well, you spend a lot of time posting without adding to the debate. If you feel so passionately about these topic why not try to convince people instead of talking about 'plows'?
Tor,
You are very articulate and well-versed in many issues. Why do you waste your time trying to get a point across SR's thick skull?
ow, to me it would be an easy choice between yes and no. My vote would be the answer to the following question: Would I like to bestow all these new powers on any person who gets in office? The answer is a clear no. And it should be from people that support Chavez as well, because he may be out of office in 5 years and they will be lamenting leaving a wide open Constitution to commit all kinds of abuses.
"Why do you waste your time trying to get a point across SR's thick skull?"
good point, however, deep down I believe anyone can be convinced or can become a debater.
Tor, see my comments in the thread above.
Grac--put down that crack-pipe ma brutha
I really do not see how anyone could include some of you in any discussion whatsoever..your metaphors are illogical and your ideas are retro and square, but worst of all impractical.
I guess it is hard for you to believe what a person says because you lie so much you think others come on here and lie about their identities as well.Now that would be an absurd waste of time,but any thinking reader who comes on here and sees you calling someone leper and being grosero like you are being,making lewd jokes , etc.,well they will know that whatever you represent is so morally inferior that it has no right to exist.You are going to convince people you are trying to help people while at the same time you treat them like this?? you have ugly mouths some of you that mirror your ugly minds.Nobody normal would talk like this.
If you are representatives of the Chavez government then his goose will be cooked sooner than you think.
Thanks to Chavez's threats, many people will vote for him out of fear...it is the easiest thing to do to manipulate poor and ignorant people.But that will not stop the opposition....we will fight for freedom no matter how many stupid little threats we get.
That is what you are all about??? Getting power through the manipulation of the poor? It cannot be because of the softness of you hearts, because that is obviously not part of the picture.
I can overlook lack of intelligence but I must mention the ugly evil mouths.
I am wondering how much you expect to make out of all of this.
Pitiful
firepig--jeez, I was merely yanking your chain, being humorous.
Really, I didn't mean to make you flip-out.
We are your freinds--you just have to learn to lighten up.
Peace.
good point, however, deep down I believe anyone can be convinced or can become a debater.You're definitely more patient that I. Ever since I can remember his comments are only insults. Because of that, he rarely has anything interesting to add to the conversation. Its easier to just ignore his comments and skip to the ones that have an actual argument. If you ignore him, he'll go away.
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