Go get 'em, Ali!! 
Great post. Your antogonizers use silly paranoia, Bush-hatred and conspiracy theories. You use logic and common-sense to completely destroy their "arguments".
(P.S. - Tell your brothers they'd better have a comprehensive post talking about their trip! We've been waiting here with bated breath. C'mon, Omar and Mohammed! Just find a computer and let us know how you're doing!)
.
i just love it when you get all
fired up Ali...just love it...
i guess thats how us in the middle
kids get sometimes......
Thanks for the good news coming out of Iraq.
However, the really good news would be when I hear that ordinary Iraqis start trying to collect on some of those "Dead or Alive" rewards on those terrorists.
The people are weak and I truly wonder if they prefer to be sheep or free men and women.
If they won't do it for themselves, they should at least do it for their friends, family and children.
"Give me liberty or give me death" because slavery is a slow torturous death
Ali....Welcome to big-time politics. As you become more powerful as opinionmakers, you will come in for more and more criticism. Its just the reality. Ignore it.
I have noticed that most of your commenters are pro-Iraqi democracy but you have a large number of commenters that are moderate politically or are Democrats so don't pay any attention to those people calling you right-wing.
They are looking for anything, absolutely anything to discredit you.
Just ignore it.
Ha!! I finally caught one of he Brothers in a mistake. Omar, in the third paragraph, is trying to use logic and reasoning to understand why the naysayers don't believe they are real Iraqis while Riverbend is accepted as real. He needs to understand that these "libs" never use logic but go by feelings. They FEEL this is way it should be so thats the way it is in spite of what their eyes and ears tell them. It is feeings that drive their whole philosophy. They nlet the facts get in the way of their "truth.
Admittedly, both sides can fall prey to this. We feel for the people of Iraq so we feel we will succeed. But we can back our arguement with facts that support us.
Hi Ali,
great piece with rational arguments.
polemic and sharp at the same time.
It's true the pro war (or much better common sense)iraqi blogs have to prove itself ten times more than the few other's even if they especially are the very ones that stand on the side of democracy.
It's because of the very intense leftwing media indoctrination overhere in the west that just don't want to believe the good things also happening in Iraq.
It's all put together in: "only iraqi blogs that buy zionist conspiracy theories can be genuine"
It's pretty racist as matter of fact.
To believe that Iraqis don´t want elections is really racism. Why should Iraqi people want a free vote any less than the rest of the Earth´s population? Is free elections something just white people like?
Dr. Juan Cole, bizarrely, while claiming to be an expert, is propagating quasi-racist ideas. Any idiot can figure out that Iraqis prefer to decide who shall lead them, instead of dictatorship. It is only when you get to be a professor, or "intellectual" that you get so lost in fancy, "sophisticated" theories, that you manage to no understand that.
I agree wholeheartedly with thinker. You guys at ITM will get a lot of idiotic criticism the more important your blog and your party gets. As thinkers says: Ignore it, even take it as a sign of your growing importance!
Hi Ali,
I'm the reader who sent you the e-mail (I'm actually a "she" .
Juan Cole is usually idiotic, as you know better than most, but that hit piece on you was particularly foul.
Of course Ali doesn't mind using his real name. He's taking money from Americans for his website and has US protection for himself and US funding for his foreign trips. Riverbend and others like her are on her own, and since there's no security at all in Iraq, why should she put herself and her family in danger? I personally don't think that Ali and the others are CIA spies or anything. They are more like war profiteers, running a scam because there are thousands of naive Americans willing to give money to someone who they feel is on "their side". Good for you, Ali and company. Bleed the dupes dry. It's only going to last a short while anyway. And why should only Halliburton profit from a messy situation?
Alright Ali that does it. When you DO come to America - your first stop better be at MY HOUSE cause I need to shake your hand!
I thought immediately how jealous other bloggers (from around the world) would be at the reception and tour your brothers are getting. Too bad. You guys earned it and I can't think of a better group of PEOPLE to get such praise. And you won the BEST blog because you are simply THE BEST. No filters. No bull shit. Just plain truth.
I am proud to KNOW YOU, even if it's just through this medium and I KNOW that everyone that reads this blog feels the same way. Iraq is moving towards democracy and you and your brothers spend every moment ensuring that. It's like others here who say "I support the troops" and DO NOTHING to actually help them. TALK IS TALK. ACTION IS ACTION.
Iraq the Model - DEMOCRACY IN ACTION!
hey! i may have a new lover in anon.
wow,i am up to 5 now.....
Anon - (or is this Dr. Cole or Riverbent herself?). Ooowww...nice insightful commentary full of idiotic claims pulled out of your 'nether-regions'...
btw, RiverBENT was not a misspelling
How ironic that ANONYMOUS would say such things about our friends on ITM and not EVEN USE YOUR OWN NAME! Brave indeed - must be the inspiration for no-name bloggers everywhere!
"Riverbend and others like her are on her own, and since there's no security at all in Iraq, why should she put herself and her family in danger?"
The brothers were once on their own but through TRUTH, JUSTICE and HUMANITY - they have many loyal readers. Every $ they get or spend is for the future of IRAQ. Not for themselves. But I wouldn't expect you to understand that - afterall you're anonymous, therefore YOU DO NOT EXIST.
Why are you "anonymous", anonymous? Afraid of the black helicopters?
You, sitting safely at home in the West, have some nerve slamming Ali and his brothers. What "US protection" do they have in Iraq, where you say "there's no security at all"? They are putting their names and faces out there in order to appear in the elections. What protection do they have from terrorists who would love to do them harm? Answer: they have none. They are incredibly brave. Braver than you, "anonymous".
As a lifelong liberal, I am truly shocked by the blind hatred emanating from the left these days. Truly shocking. I hope you realize you've become as bad as the hate-filled, conspiracy-minded right-wingers who hounded Clinton and the Democrats for years. Y'know, the ones who always talked about "Arkancide" and "Who killed Vince Foster?" It's sad to see liberals become just like them.
.
Kathleen,
did i ever tell you i got
my iraqthemodel sweatshirt(nice)
and mouse pad.....
Iit's where western leftwing moralism and the (non-iraqi)arab street agrees very much: A "murder/war/crime" is only a wrong deed when you can blame israel or america.
Imagine a worn out non-globalist and a deranged middle east jihadi basically thinking the same about international affairs:
Strange bedfellows indeed, especially thinking if they both get their way the non globalist would be exterminated by the jihadi after gladly being used as a so called "useful idiot".
(intelectual that despite his/hers "developed education" is paving the way for dictatorship ending in the destruction of the very same member of the "intelligentsia" not understanding where it went wrong).
everybody you must read
roger l simon today...
he met Omar and Mohammed
and quit picking on my new lover
Andrea - I'm glad you got the stuff! I still have the bumper stick on my car (and I will keep replenishing it when necessary) and people read it - laugh - and then walk away with a curious look. I hope I'm sending a few readers their way.
Ah, but there is the rub Anonymous. There is some fairly strong indications that dear Riverbend is living in the section of Baghdad where all the Iraqi, Saddam loving politicians lived. I.e., here family was and still probably is as pro-Saddam as you can get short of being one of his direct decendents. The only thing she has to be afraid of is wandering around in parts of the city that are not pro-Saddam and being recognized. That and apparently the need to hide under the covers when her nightlight doesn't work because one of her neighbors invited someone into the area to cut all the power lines for the 500th time in a week. Of course, the guy at CryMeARiverbend: http://crymeariverii.blogspot.com/ might be wrong about her. But the pieces fit together a bit to well to not be accurate. Can't remember the exact link to the page he has that puts those pieces together though.
I agree with Kagehi...been reading her tripe for a while and there's a 'submliminal' wistfulness to some of her posts...you know, missing the GOOD OLD DAYS
The ones in Iraq that are running the highest risk are the pro democracy Iraqi's not the ones that are stating the opposite.
(the "brave resistance" even kill cleaning ladies who dared to clean american camps let alone those who speak out in favor of them).
The guys from iraq the model have tremendous courage and guts.
They are true and rightful fighters for freedom.
They (and all the pro democracy bloggers) lay down the mental framework for a better iraq.
This must not be underestimated.
I question whether Juan Cole has the right to be called "Professor".
As for Joseph.. who gives a shit? I suspect he wrote that post for blog hits.
Same with ghandi showing up there. Nothing like pimping your blog, eh ghandi? Twice even. eeellloooser.
The fact that "Professor" Cole has had ample time to refute your post on ME history, and hasn't, only suggests to me that he needs to be stripped of the title "expert in ME history". Slap a big L on your forehead, "Professor".
He's also suffering from edzachary disease, first discovered and named by an Asian doctor. His head looks edzachary like his ass.
And now I'm off to meet authentic, intelligent, pro-democracy bloggers Omar and Mohammed.
Riverbend can go piss up a rope.
Cold as ice!
And well-deserved.
Ali! Thank you!
I came across that martini blog last night about Juan Cole and the back-handed questions about your brothers. I was hopping mad! I saw your comment and was very happy that you responded so quickly! Let's hope that Juan Cole shows himself to be an honest man by putting ITM on his blogroll and by addressing your comments directly to you!
Yes, you are right to point out that there are some Iraqi Bloggers who support the "insurgency." It has been very clear on the blogs. How can they support people who kill Iraqi soldiers and policemen and people who come to Iraq to help build a new democratic future? Iraqis, don't forget who these people are! If they want to join in building the future, good! Let's hope they change their minds and no longer pray to the Zarqawi posters on their walls!
I am celebrating SPIDERHOLE ANNIVERSARY DAY over at Iraqi Bloggers Central.
Stop by if you have the time.
*
WE ALL KNOW WHY RIVERBEND DOES NOT REVEAL HER IDENTITY
We've been dancing around it, but we all know the answer: Riverbend is obviously a member of one of the Baathist families that lived priviliged lives under Saddam while he looted and raped the country. It's only natural she would hate liberation, sympathize with the terrorist/Baathist remnants, and be against the elections.
Ali,
Thanks for a great analysis. May God bless you and protect you.
GM
Cairo, Egypt
"It's only going to last a short while anyway. And why should only Halliburton profit from a messy situation?"
Anonymous
See you in '06 Moron.
Main Entry: mo·ron
Pronunciation: 'mor-"än
Function: noun
Etymology: irregular from Greek mOros foolish, stupid
1 usually offensive : a mildly mentally retarded person
2 : a very stupid person
- mo·ron·ic /m&-'rä-nik, mo-/ adjective
- mo·ron·i·cal·ly /-ni-k(&-)lE/ adverb
- mo·ron·ism /'mOr-"ä-"ni-z&m, 'mor-/ noun
- mo·ron·i·ty /m&-'rä-n&-tE, mo-/ noun
How many times does the Socialist Left have to get smacked upside the head before they learn? By '06 things will be realitvly quite in the ME. The DPRK will have fallen and Iran will be tottering, the Last survivor of the Axis of Evil. The Democrats have 8 senate seats that can be added to the Sea of Red in '06. Good Luck with that moron.
Regarding my earlier post about Riverbend being a Baathist:
She even says as much in her initial posts: "people like me: sons and daughters of diplomats." If you were a diplomat in Sadda's Iraq, you were a member of the regime.
Remember when Fat Boy Muqtada Al-Sadr was stirring up trouble a few months ago? Yeah, Riverbend supported him.
Salam Pax responded:
>Essentially I do agree with you, the deaths during the recent days are more than scary and worrying. It makes your heart ache to see what is happening in Najaf. Unacceptable. But I think you are not pointing your finger in the right direction. What is going on these days in Najaf, Baghdad, Basra and other Iraqi cities is not entirely the fault of the coalition.
>I can’t understand why you don’t see the danger in the group of people calling themselves Mahdi’s Army and the Sadir followers and why it is important to show them the limits beyond which they are not going to be tolerated.
>I am totally convinced that there is no good in them. Has there been any constructive suggestion by them other than demanding the end of occupation? Is calling the shrine of Imam Ali a holy of holiest and then putting snipers on top of it a sign of respect?
...
>Sorry Riverbend, I have to disagree with you there, it is not the Americans who should be blamed for turning Najaf into hell on this earth but rather Sadir’s people. And I hope, actually I am sure that you would never say that you see Sadir as a probable leader for Iraq and I don’t think his actions should be in any way be endorsed. You know very well that the day Sadir assumes power in this country you and I will have to think about spending the rest of our lives somewhere else.
Riverbend supports any attack on Iraqi soldiers and policemen and any attack on the Multinational Forces. She doesn't care who exactly does the attacking, a Baathist colleague, a terrorist, a murderer trying to make some extra cash. Listen, only if Saddam returns can she get back to her old "happy days."
*
GM,
I love your blog, Big Pharaoh!
The way you cut through a lot of crap is riveting. I sit up in my chair when I click onto your blog! It's like a double-espresso!
*
You know, wish we knew someone that could do a little investigating on our friends 'The Professor and Maryanne...err I mean Riverbent.
Well, her blogs there...just go back as far as you can and read for a bit...spooky stuff that only makes sense if you were part of the Saddam regime.
Thanks for the heads up Ali -
Lisa - I loved your comment on Martini Republic. I am waiting to see how they reply.
btw Ali - Did you get your check this week? (Langley had a computer glitch and sent a bunch of them to the wrong address.)
Thanks for the compliment, Neonknight.
BTW, I think you (and others) should maybe stop the CIA jokes. The left is not known for their finely attuned sense of humor and sarcasm often goes right over their heads. They may use comments like this as proof of their theories.
Just a thought.
.
Lisa - and we care what they think because......?
....but will keep your advice in mind.
Lisa - Good thing you warned me...I almost posted it there. LOL
Lisa,
i was paging you a couple of weeks
ago,kerry dupont was looking for
you,probably the brothers coming
to america....
i love being a cia agent
Jeffrey quoting Salam Pax wrote:
"And I hope, actually I am sure that you would never say that you see Sadir as a probable leader for Iraq and I don’t think his actions should be in any way be endorsed. You know very well that the day Sadir assumes power in this country you and I will have to think about spending the rest of our lives somewhere else."
The irony here is that the way the elections are going Mqty Al Sadir and friends will have a lot of power, sanctioned by the elections. Will the US military fight to support them and their policies?
Isn't it Riverbend that doesn't allow comments ? How about Juan Cole does he allow comments ?
And, anonymous above, how much money did you contributre to the multi-billionair, J.F.Kerry ?
You are an idiot, anonymous.
Slap them silly, Ali. You can add a few pictures here and there which will prove you are in Baghdad.
But, you don't have to prove it to most of us. We believe you because we don't lie. Juan Cole doesn't believe anyone because he does lie. It couldn't be simpler.
Yemen is good!
As for Riverbend, I stopped taking that blog seriously a long time ago. She (is it really a she?) has NEVER written anything negative about Saddam. Considering her endless negativity about everything else, it is not difficult to guess where she comes from.
That Mr. Cole takes Riverbend as a witness of truth just reminds us why "experts" are not always to be trusted.
I often wonder if all of this had happened on Clinton's watch, if these same naysayers wouldn't be trumpeting the US and Iraqi Pro-Democracy efforts.
Dear Ali
I just wonder if what Riverbend write is the truth about the situation in Iraq or not .
It is really very bad if the people suffer like that .
I feel very sorry and sad for this great country
please can someone answer me and i am very confused
I've been waiting in vain for Riverbend to post a copy of her electric bill...fortunately I didn't hold my breath!!
I'd love you see you brothers debate Juan Cole in person. Ali, you'd eat him alive.
Ali,
Isn't there a saying...
"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach?"
Continue working on your dream of Iraq Ali and leave the professor and the rest of the pundits to talk about it in their revisionist histories.
You rock, Ali.
When,
What reputation??
"I'd love you see you brothers debate Juan Cole in person. Ali, you'd eat him alive."
I'm not sure I'd consider that a slam dunk (to steal a phrase), Juan Cole has had some practice at his craft there. However, I'd put my money on Ali, and give odds too.
And I sure would like to see it.
Ali,
I think it's now getting serious enough that you might need bodyguards or something. You and your brothers are getting a reputation now and no doubt certain bad people in Iraq are or have taken notice.
Man I'm getting bad vibes about all this political blog bickering...
Please be careful and keep up the good work.
Ash,
AlSadr - he opted not to put forward a list of candidates. Not a lot of chance of getting elected if you don't run!!!
Shiites unveil candidate slate in Iraq
This isn't like Death Row Records - there is more to worry about with enemies of freedom than some idiots who can write - but not WORK for the betterment of Iraq. I worry for the brothers because they are so vocal - they are true believers in freedom and working hard on it everyday. I hope they stay safe because Iraq needs them for the future.
Wow! That is so hot. We love it when you guys get fired up. At some point, gentlemen must ask a ruffian to step outside. Well, the ladies like it anyways. I believe in you guys!
Thank you for blogging and your brothers for visiting!
I am ambivalent about the war, because I oppose foreign intervention in general, but I don't buy in to the left wing "America is Evil" argument. We are used to empty rhetoric from Bush and company, so it's amazing to hear the same thing from someone I can believe. You guys are making a lot of liberal and left leaning Americans rethink how they feel about the war.
I heard your brothers on the Brian Lehrer show on public radio and I was incredibly embarassed for liberal America. Apparently he couldn't get over the fact that you guys really did want America there. While I may not agree that Bush's main purpose was to free the Iraqi people, I don't think that takes away from the fact that we are trying to do that. I can't believe that your brothers came all the way from Iraq to tell us how much you apreciated America and that asshole had the nerve to argue with them.
Thanks again and keep on blogging!
I just read the Martini Republic home page dealing with ITM... what mean-spirited tripe! What rubbish!
They have the nerve to say "All kinds of blogs have attracted suspicion of being bloated beyond their due influence by blog trolling efforts here in the US. Iraq The Model is one of these."
Their due influence??? Ah, I see, the public should only support our Ba'athist friends and ideologically crazed anti-war compatriots at their blogs.
I realize now all of our joking around about CIA conspiracies and other rubbish is actually taken seriously by these fools.
Mr. Juan Cole, and those at Martini Republic could try to see through their alcohol-fueled haze for just a little while. It might do them some good.
Thanks anon for that link.
From that article http://www.startribune.com/stori...62/
5128314.html
" The biggest wild card among the Shiites is firebrand cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. An aide said al-Sadr's movement had been invited to take part; he suggested the group refused because it wants to see how the vote plays out.
``If the elections results will be beneficial, we will have another chance to join the elections in the coming phases, and if their results were bad it will be recorded that we did not support the occupation's existence,'' said al-Sadr's representative in Beirut, Lebanon, Hassan al-Zarqani.
Al-Sadr's movement, which wields wide grassroots support among impoverished and young Shiites, has previously sent mixed messages about its role in the country's political process. There were signs that while al-Sadr and his top aides were not participating, the list had support of others of his followers.
The alliance includes the major Shiite political parties, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution and the Islamic Dawa Party. Both have strong links with Iran, a Shiite but non-Arab neighbor, something the Sadrists often use to question their rivals' Arab identity and commitment to Iraq's interests."
If al Sadr should choose to start fighting again, things could get even uglier then they are now. If the Sistani alliance dominate, the Iran link will be dicey, for the Americans as well as al-Sadr group. Does the Moderate, western based slate of candidates (like our hosts) have much popular support? Any means of getting their message to the electorate? I don't imagine many of them are reading blogs.
ali -
you rock!
- k
hey, 2 lovers today what a treat!!!!
Who would you reasonably expect to vote in a Weblog Awards run by a site called Right Wing News?
That's right. Right Wingers -- people desperate for any good news out of Iraq. You provide it for them. When the Village Voice runs their awards with the same open voting all the lefties that go to that site will give riverbend or Raed the top honors.
All that said. Good work and it's nice to see the diversity of opinions coming out of Iraq these days.
Ah, Mr Hole (say his name three times quickly...) strikes (out!) again. If ever he wanted an example of confirmation bias, he need only travel as far as the nearest mirror: he's convinced Riverbent is genuine, despite the evidence to the contrary (her apparent ignorance regarding electricity prices, for example, and absence of any verifiable detail) yet somehow doubts the ITM brothers - even after they're verified independently by multiple international souces like the BBC and USA Today, because he doesn't like their opinions...
Incidentally, weren't Riverbent's alleged pre-war electricity bills very suspiciously *low* - and isn't the obvious explanation for that the fact her father was some sort of Iraqi "diplomat" (i.e. part of the Hussein regime)? We know they received preferential treatment in every other way, were they paying full price for electricity?
More good news: Chrenkoff mentioned the bidding earlier, but Iraq and Afghanistan have been approved to join the WTO.
A correction: they have been approved to join membership negotiations. Still, good news.
Unfortunately,
Omar, Mohammed, and Ali are now subject to the "tall weed" syndrome and will be the victim of
more attacks like the one Juan Cole did on
them:
"The MR posting brings up questions about the Iraqi brothers who run the IraqTheModel site. It points out that the views of the brothers are celebrated in the right-leaning weblogging world of the US, even though opinion polling shows that their views are far out of the mainstream of Iraqi opinion. It notes that their choice of internet service provider, in Abilene, Texas, is rather suspicious, and wonders whether they are getting some extra support from certain quarters."
Juan in his posting actually sides with Baathist
Babe Riverbend and seems to accuse the brothers
of "blog trolling!"
Hat Tips LGF and Across The Bay
I would dearly loved to have heard Jim Lehrer things on the brothers, any links (avi, mpg, mp3, ogg). Thanks in advance.
tros
Correction (did not read carefully) Brian Lehrer, and not Jim Lehrer on ABC. So any links to hear the brothers? Thanks again.
Ali, I have been really enjoying reading up on your brothers' trip to the USA, Jarvis and Sullivan and other bloggers from Spirit of America have given great liks on their blogs, incl. Jarvis who posted a link to a radio interview (the host was lame) but it was so great to hear your brother's voices!
In any event, in the beginning, back in the early days of Iraqi blogging, with Salam Pax and Riverbend, I always wanted you all to get together to do a tv show and talk and debate about the things you all write about, it would be cool if in the future you could all get toegther.... I hope the animosity between you all does not grow, instead I hope you can all respect and work together. Even though it is challenging to think that way.
Remember: E Pluribus Unum.
Best wishes and keep doing what you are doing, you are all doing very important work.
(remember, too, that Riverbend said earlier that she used to work as a computer programmer in an office, since the war she has been home-bound, I think it has made her depressed.)
To Juan Cole or whatever lacky of his reads this: While it is good to question the sources of anything one reads/sees/hears, including the MSM, cable news, newspapers or any other source, you are overlooking the most important fact of all. Wether this site is of CIA, Iraqi, or any other source, is not all that relevant. The main thing is that it is indeed a forum for discussion that is attainable by people in Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Syria, the US, Europe, China, and the world.
Before these blogs were set up, th eonly discussion of democracy in most, nay all, ME countires was done in whispered voices among only the closest of friends. Now it is screamed and streamed for world to see. Democracy is now being discussed openly throughout the ME. There is a stirring of the huddled masses and freedom is on the rise. Within the next five to ten years we shall see a series of revolutions, bringing democracy to 500,000,000 or maybe one billion people that will rival the freedom shockwave that rushed through Eastern Europe that Reagon/Bush unleashed.
This about much more than Iraq. And this change is inevitable. It maybe bloody this time, especially if people like you continue to fight it. But it will happen.
E Pluribus Unum means "out of many, one."
how lucky to have another 1 more
lover,am i up to 6 now?salman would
be 6.
they do say opposites do attrack
"Yemen is good!" LOL!
Hey Ali, you beginning to see what liberals who support the "occupation" are up against over here? Please, hurry up and fix your country so they can't be mean to us anymore!
Link to radio show:
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/epi...isodes/
12102004
Brian Lehrer show, scroll down the page to just listen to the segment with the brothers.
Hey Lisa, you are the very best. You waged a beautiful, succinct and blistering defense of ITM at that other moronic site.
Now if only Juan Cole would allow comments...
Oh, and are you single?
East Coast Girl Thanks!
Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that anyone in Iraq on any side of the issues (and there are more than two sides) who can afford a computer and reliable access to the internet, considering the mess the infrastructure is in, could possibly represent anything but the most priveledged minority.
We'll see what the elections bring...
scott peterson just got the death
penalty!!!!!!!
Sorry Ali......you will have to articulate your position with less vitriol before I'll cast Al Ahram, Aljezeera, Dar Al Hayat, Khilafah et al. aside for your supposed on the spot rants.....if there is a poll out from your country that contradicts those of various Arab and Western media..show us...otherwise, there is a prepodenance of evidence to suggest that Iraq has gone from cesspool to shithole in 21 months...you seem to be a hero to the illiterate morons on your site, however, Dr. Cole has credentials, something these morons can't spell...
Some JUAN COLE quotes from the past year:
"Kerry has been consistent on his Iraq position." (September 29 2004) Here.
"Reagan's policies thus bequeathed to us the major problems we now have in the world." (June 06 2004) Here.
"We’re still trying to figure out whether this war [Iraq] was the biggest mistake in American history, or only the second- or third-biggest." (October 2004) Here.
"There is not and cannot be such a thing as a 'war on terror.'"
"..the Spanish actions [the Iraq pullout after the Madrid train bombings] are a great victory for the counter-insurgency struggle against al-Qaeda." (both March 16 2004) Here.
Juan Cole is a fool.
Seow in Singapore, You are welcome for the link, if you'd like to visit Jeff Jarvis' site he writes tons and tons about what they were doing at the conference at Harvard.... scroll down his page, he writes about them a lot!
Jeff Jarvis site is:
www.buzzmachine.com
Hey, "Salman Rushedme", prepodenance is spelled preponderance.
No charge for the spelling lesson!
a hermit,
check out nabil's blog to the right
of here,and go to the right on
his blog,there are a few more
bloggers listed there,also
check iraqblogcount a few more there.
your welcome in advanced!!!
Salman:
"Credentials" meaning one lefty winning approval of other lefties on paper.
Most Iraqis (even Sunnis) want elections. ALL the polls suggest this, and they prove Cole is either a liar or a fool for saying Riverbend is more representative of Iraqis than ITM.
OPERATION GRATITUD has
sent out over 19,000 holiday
packages so far for the troops..
wowie
yippy skippy
Hey, "Salman Rushedme", prepodenance is spelled preponderance.
Anything else Adam.....an on comment, comment..perhaps?
How about an "on comment, comment" from you, salman, instead of silly insults like this:
"you seem to be a hero to the illiterate morons on your site, however, Dr. Cole has credentials, something these morons can't spell..."
When you throw around ad hominem attacks like calling those who disagree with you "morons" who "can't spell" then you need to be prepared for people to correct your spelling mistakes.
Spelling mistakes and typos are routinely excused when committed by people who choose to make rational arguments rather than falling back on juvenile insults when challenged.
.
Lisa,did you see my note to you
earlier in the day?
andrea,
no, what was it?
.
However, if you ever insult my brothers again, I'll make sure to make time for you with a free bonus to your Riverbend.
Now that's a rational argument
a couple of weeks ago Kerry Dupont
was looking for you,and your prize
for being 1st ever blogger here...
i think he may have wanted to
tell you the brothers were coming.
i tried paging you that day,cause
you had come on the blog..too
i could be wrong,hang tight gal,
i am trying to find his email for
ya
ok Lisa its,
kerry@spiritofamerica.net
However, if this means that we are definitely hired by such power on the right then it should mean that anti-American Iraqi bloggers would be very likely hired by some powers on the left. Can anyone agree on this?! I simply refuse both silly assumptions.
Really? Omar, you guys work for a living as well as blog. I don't know what the "anti-American Iraqi bloggers" do to earn money -- other than blog, that is...
Neda writes, "I just wonder if what Riverbend write is the truth about the situation in Iraq or not. It is really very bad if the people suffer like that. I feel very sorry and sad for this great country please can someone answer me and i am very confused."
I can answer you, Neda...but I'm not an Iraqi, and have not been in Iraq. (I'm a U.S. citizen, living in the U.S.)
Some of the things Riverbend writes are completely true. Some things have some truth in them. Some are false, but perhaps she doesn't know they are false. And some things are false, and I think she must know it (in other words, they are lies).
Let's take three of her statements about Fallujah, for example:
"The assault on Falloojeh and other areas is continuing. There are rumors of awful weapons being used in Falloojeh. The city has literally been burnt and bombed to the ground."
1) There *is* still fighting in Falloojeh.
2) It's not possible to say whether the statement about "awful weapons" is true, without knowing what the rumored "awful weapons" are.
3) "The city has literally been burnt and bombed to the ground." --> That is false, but I can't say whether or not Riverbend knows it's false. She might think it's true.
I say it's false, because I have seen both satellite aerial photographs of Fallujah, and photographs from the ground.
Here are some satellite photographs:
Satellite photos of Fallujah
Here are photographs of the city from the ground (warning: there are pictures of dead and wounded people):
Fallujah pictures (caution: contains photographs of dead and wounded)
Now, I'm not trying to say that civilians in Fallujah don't have many problems, or that there is no damage at all. There clearly is damage in the city, with some buildings completely destroyed.
But it is not even close to what happened to many German cities in WWII, for example. Here is a photograph of a street in Dueren Germany before being bombed:
Street in Dueren Germany before bombing
Here is that same street after being bombed:
Street in Dueren Germany, after bombing
Best wishes,
Mark
Hi Ali.
This is what I wrote about the subject:
I can't remember how I found Iraq The Model in the beginning, but when things were looking bad and all my 'peers' in New Zealand were sneering 'I told you so', Iraq The Model provided inspiration and a source of hope for me.
Many of us couldn't believe what we were seeing on our TV screens and reading in the papers, Iraq the Model showed us a glimpse of what was really happening.
There really were some Iraqi's that were behind the United States efforts, there were some Iraqi's that longed for freedom, and there were some Iraqi's whos life was for the better. What the papers were reporting just flied in the face of Humanity.
Over time as more Iraqi blogs sprouted up I discovered those writing at Iraq the Model were not just a minority group.
Also, it must be said that witnessing a group of people who had been 'living in the dark' for 35 years finally able to express their basic freedoms was heart warming to witness. It makes you realize the things you take for granted.
Of course many of those on the left don't want Iraq the Model to be true.
They desperately want those like Iraq The Model to be a government scam, because it means everything that they believe in, the faith they have that their stand is the moral high ground, that they are right and they are the protectors of freedom through their in-action, is wrong.
also people's,Roger L. Simon
met the brothers over the weekend,
go read,3rd post down,its GREAT!!!!
Hi Ali,
Riverbend = Tokyo Rose. She is using a different medium perhaps, but for the same purpose. Unfortunately for her, she has too whiny and sarcastic a personality to be as good. She is too unpleasant.
I look foreward to hearing about your brothers trip to the states.
Take care.
Oh, I missed that.
Thanks, andrea.
.
as we say in mn Lisa
you betcha,don't ya know...
Another Juan Cole quote -
"The Democrats need to find a southern governor with a southern accent who is a Baptist."
Neither Kennedy,Johnson,Nixon,Ford,Reagan,Bush Sr or Bush Jr were Baptists. And Bill Clinton was surely not a "practicing" baptist.
Neither Kennedy,Nixon,Ford,Reagan,Bush Sr or Bush Jr were "from the south".(The Bushes are from New England).
The only thing he got right is that "governors" have a much higher chance of being president than any other group.
There's a difference between reminding people of how far short this occupation has come to fulfulling its promised goals--and at how much greater the cost in lives, resources and capital it has been than what the government prepared the US for--and desiring the project to fail. Juan Cole's contention, that Riverbend represents Sunni thought (for all those who think you've outed a crypto-Saddamist . . . well, he conceded that), and that her dissatisfaction with the occupation is closer to Iraqi opinion polls, doesn't seem that controversial to me. That said, I hope that the characterization is ultimately wrong, but there seems to be a lot of evidence to support it.
My question has always been, by what standard would any of the war's supporters admit to failure? I'm not saying it is yet, but it so much worse than the administration ever led people to belive it would be already you can understand the skepticism, can't you? And, if it turns into a catastrophe how many of you are intellectually honest enough to admit it? Or will you be like my father and believe that "we still could have won in Vietnam"?
Hi, Neda:
I see in my responses to your questions (December 13, 5:36 PM), my email address was messed up. And I also made a mistake while typing my weblog (blog) address. The actual addresses are:
email: mark.bahner@sbcglobal.net
Blog: http://markbahner.typepad.com
If you'd like, you can contact me at either address.
Best wishes,
Mark Bahner
BBC Pic of Fallujah, notice the Buildings in the background
Michael when the U.S. fails to meet it's objectives in Iraq then it will be a failure.
So far, it has met all it's objectives - with bumps in the road.
If the elections go off smoothly without worry, and the American soldiers stablize the country enough for the Iraqi security forces to take over, able to return to Iraq as friends and not occupiers, then Iraq will be a huge success for me.
If the elections go badly and the U.S. soldiers are forced to pull out and leave the country unstable, then that is a massive failure.
The administration has promised what it has promised and is meeting those promises, it has never really mentioned a time frame so I find your post about it's failure a little disingenious.
Wether or not riverbend or Ali etc represent the mainstream of Iraq is irrelevent, there is divide in every country over minor issues.
There is no divide however on the major issue, and that is a free and democratic Iraq. Some are disillusioned that a free and democratic Iraq means the 'United States wins', but in the end they will see that it's not about America winning, it's about them, lest they be bitter for the rest of their lives.
"There's a difference between reminding people of how far short this occupation has come to fulfulling its promised goals--"
Let's see...here are some goals (hard to say which were "promised"):
1) Remove Saddam Hussein from power: Done.
2) Also remove Saddam Hussein from power: Done.
3) Remove leaders of Baath Party from power: Done.
4) Make absolutely sure that there are no WMD in Iraq: Either "done" or "very, very close to done."
5) Set up a democratic replacement government: Not done, but elections scheduled for end of January, 2005.
6) Given the name, "Operation Iraqi Freedom"...increase the freedom in Iraq. Let's see: religious freedom has definitely increased, freedom of speech and the press have definitely increased, economic freedom (e.g., ability to run businesses without getting government permission) has increased. In short, Iraq is now probably one of the most free countries in the Middle East.
7) Most importantly (from the standpoint of U.S. citizens):
Reduce the danger to U.S. citizens from Iraq, due to the fact that Iraq was governed by a completely undemocratic tyrant, who is known to have used WMD, and who definitely sheltered Islamic terrorists: Done.
D-oh!
Number 2 should have been:
2) Also remove Saddam Hussein's *sons* from power: Done.
I also want to add the following points.
America itself went through a civil war before democracy took a hold.
I fail to see how an ineffective insurgency that is turning the people against it bit by bit is a cause to call for failure.
I find the notion that things should have gone smoothly in a country where so much is at stake, particulary for those who have the most to lose by a democratic Iraq, quite an idealistic and unrealistic notion indeed.
There are no crystal balls in the real world, many things that are happening may or may not have been predicted or prevented.
The fact the United States is still in Iraq, it's President whos tarted the war is re-elected speaks volumes about the resolve of America this time around. To think 12 years ago America cut and ran from Somalia after losing 19 men to what they have achieved today.
The biggest problem in the beginning was many Iraqi's probably did not trust the Americans to stick around, now that has been cleared up, many are beginning to trust them.
There is no comparason between Iraq and Vietnam, it just wishful thinking on behalf of those wanting the U.S. to fail - even at the cost of the Iraqi people.
Michael, Read the book by Gen Giap of North Viet Nam. In it he says that the Tet offensive was a military disaster. The leadership thought that they were about to lose the war as they lost half of their men. But they were aware of the Western media playing it as a major setback for the Americans so they hung in there. If it weren't for all the negative press about the Tet ofensive, they would have sued for peace and the US would have won.
As for this war, we are no where near losing. And while the war has not proceeded as well as expected, the predictions by the anti-war crowd were much, much worse than what has transpired. They said that there would be much higher casualties as a result of chem and bio weapons,
that hundreds of thousands of cicilians would be killed,
that the oil wells would be torched leading to a huge enviromental catasrophe,
that 5 million refugees would flee-leading to a humanitarion disaster
that the Arab strets would erupt leading to the overthrow of several friendly ME govs
that a massive wave of radical fundamentalism would sweep the Muslim world.
That Arabs would attack Isaerel and lead to war throughout the ME.
I would say that the antis have no credibilty left. The war has been tough but wil only be lost if we let the anti-war people lose it.
"America itself went through a civil war before democracy took a hold."
It could easily be argued that America wasn't a democracy (one person, one vote) until women were given the right to vote by the 19th Amendment in 1920.
In fact, it could even be argued that America wasn't a democracy until blacks were assured of the right to vote by the Voting Rights Act in 1965.
In contrast, as far as I know, the January 2005 elections in Iraq will include women, and no minority group will be denied the right to vote.
"To think 12 years ago America cut and ran from Somalia after losing 19 men to what they have achieved today."
The government--or governments, or lack of governments--in Somalia were not dangerous to U.S. citizens.
In contrast, Saddam Hussein deliberately sheltered known Islamic terrorists, including Abdul Rahman Yasin, one of the terrorists who bombed the World Trade Center in 1993. (With the intent of toppling one tower into the other, to bring them both down.)
Mark you raise good points, however my points were to put the Iraq situation in perspective.
People with fancy idealogical notions can lose sight of perspective and get caught up in doom and gloom.
Some of this stuff is pretty funny.
Also, I understand that the Somalian citizens were not a direct threat to the United States, and the Somalian government was in no hurry to aquire WMD that there-for could be used against the United States.
The point is how the resolve of the United States has changed under Bush, compared to what it was under Clinton.
This is a big issue because many in the Arab world saw America as a paper tiger during the Clinton years as it had no resolve what-so-ever.
In chosing sides between the Americas who may 'cut and run' and the insurgents the question of resolve is an important one, and the Americans are demonstrating their resolve.
This is a victory in itself, because one of the best ways to defeat America is to destroy it's resolve.
With the election of President Bush, the American resolve has not been shaken and is stronger than it ever was.
Cheers
Dave
God, is Riverbend disgusting. And her English is too good. She must be a plant from the Democratic Underground crowd. She should discontinue her blog in honor of the way things used to be.
Ali,
You got it right in this post. I honestly can't handle Juan Cole at all.
Dave writes, "The point is how the resolve of the United States has changed under Bush, compared to what it was under Clinton."
Yes, I understand that was your point. My reply was that since Somalia wasn't a threat, most people in the U.S. thought there was no legitimate reason to lose precious soldiers.
The difference between Somalia and Iraq is that many more people in the U.S. think that Iraq under Saddam Hussein was dangerous to the U.S. No one that I know of thought that Somalia was a threat.
Michael,
Gen Tommy Franks thought Iraq would take 3 to 5 years from invasion to stability. We are at 21 months.
The number of North Vietnamese killed was approximately 500,000 to 600,000. Casualties: 15 million.
Peak US troop strength in Vietnam was 543,482.
There aren't 15 million insurgents in Iraq, or 1.5 million insurgents, or even 150,000 insurgents. The best guess number is 15,000 if you include AlSadr's boys(who have quit at the moment). We are now talking about less than 5,000 insurgents left.
The whole "vietnam" comparison just doesn't work.
Ali, please ignore "experts" like Juan Cole and incessant whiners like Baghdad Betty, a/k/a Riverbend. I certainly do and have done for some time. People like them are useless and beyond tedious, and you have already proven at least once what a liar Riverbend is. I can't stand her because when I read her last year for awhile, her hatred towards Americans and our troops was quite bad, and likely still is. Uncle Sam upset Ba'athist Betty's little apple cart, and she was none too happy about it. To heck with the rest of the Iraqis and the oppression they suffered under Saddam, I guess. Riverbend was the center of the universe, and that's all that mattered. A pox on her self-centered, worthless self.
Soldiers Dad -
Your observations are right on. There are very few points of comparison between Iraq and Vietnam. One thing they do have in common though is a determined enemy.
If we have learned anything from Vietnam, it is that failure is not an option. Quitting is not an option.
Salman Rushedme wrote:
there is a prepodenance of evidence to suggest that Iraq has gone from cesspool to shithole in 21 months...you seem to be a hero to the illiterate morons on your site, however, Dr. Cole has credentials, something these morons can't spell...
I then pointed out his incorrect spelling of "preponderance". Apparently he didn't understand the reference, or his own hypocrisy.
And speaking of credentials, a doctorate or a degree does not indicate moral superiority of any kind. Here is someone who had "CREDENTIALS".
Credentials are fine but they do not necessarily give you more insight into the situation then someone who is actually living it.
It was Churchill that said, "When you are going through hell, keep going." And I believe that the brother's are looking past the current instability to what Iraq can be.
Juan Cole is irrelevant.
He is stuck in the past of his antiwar stance but the days for that debate are long gone. There is nothing to do but confront the current situation and it is obvious from every poll taken, the Iraqis want free elections.
The majority will be heard.
Good post Ali. You are quite a writer.
The tone and content of Riverbend's December 16 post last year (its first after Saddam's capture) suggest only distress and dismay at the event. Nearly every Baghdadi celebrates the great news, but not RB. No relief, no joy, no optimism, but instead, their opposites. There must be definite reasons for this, but only one person could confirm them, and it would take courage and character that is doubtful at best.
Thanks NeonKnight,
I think at this point the best comparison to Iraq is closer to the cost of cleaning up the "Mob" in New York(Bagdhad),Chicago(Mosul) and LasVegas(Fallujah) and the street gangs in LA(Sadr City).
Oh God, Gandhi's on Martini Republic blathering on about his conspiracy theories on I.T.M...
"I was also threatened with personal violence by people who trawled my blog for details of my name, address and ISP. I believe there are CIA agents monitoring the comments at ITM who now have this information, despite the fact that I have not made it publicly available.
...
Self-aggrandizing paranoia anyone?
For those idiots who think there is something suspicious about the Iraq The Model "server" being "in" Abeline Texas :
Name: iraqthemodel.com
Address: 64.202.167.129
Name: riverbendblog.com
Address: 64.202.167.129
Both of these are simple domain forwards, as the sites are in fact hosted by blogspot.
Name: blogspot.blogger.com
Address: 66.102.15.101
Aliases: riverbendblog.blogspot.com
Name: blogspot.blogger.com
Address: 66.102.15.101
Aliases: iraqthemodel.blogspot.com
=darwin
I have been reading Martini Republic off and on all day.
ModDem actually made me proud.
It was good to see all you guys posting over there defending the Bros. Everyone was well behaved and eloquent.
Well done, Ali - Well done. It's nice to see you punch back.
Dr. Cole has credentials, something these morons can't spell...
salman rushedme
Credentials;
Main Entry: 2credential
Function: noun
1 : something that gives a title to credit or confidence
2 plural : testimonials showing that a person is entitled to credit or has a right to exercise official power
3 : CERTIFICATE, DIPLOMA
In this case they are meaningless. Mr Cole is a Professor at the University of Michigan. One of Thousands of Professors in America.
That means he sat in class long enough to get a degree, as millions have done. A Cat just got a degree a few months ago. IIRC, Dogs, Birds and Fish have gotten degrees also. It is not that unusual a thing for someone with more money then sense to put the family pet thru college. Why give him credit for that?
Plus his field of study is History, which is not a branch of acdemia that requires much in the way of mental discipline. A Study of History DOES require imagination, since nobody really knows and all they can do is look at sparse data and guess.
My bone with Mr Cole is that he is biased toward the scientific field. Scientists are stoopid acording the Mr. Cole. His claim that Intelligent people are attracted to Liberal Arts is laughable on the face of it. Us Hard Science types think the Liberal Arts Majors are stoopid and can prove it. We just don't go out of our way to pick fights with them. That is the surest sign of a moroon.
Real Science consists of gather ALL the Data and then testing it to form a theory that tak into acccount ALL the Data. Junk Science is where you form the theory and then dig up data to match, and then BURY the data that doen't match. Junk Science is Mr. Cole's specialty.
Science is facts; just as houses are made of stones, so is science made of facts; but a pile of stones is not a house and a collection of facts is not necessarily science.
Henri Poincare
French mathematician & physicist (1854 - 1912)
another reminder for those who
don't know,go to the right,
and read Roger L. Simon,he had the
brothers over at his house over
the weekend,its a great read,maybe
three or so posts down.......
Ain't freedom great? Women in Afghanistan not being forced to wear burkas, iraqis blogging to the world, and last but not least, conservative view points getting out to the masses after sooo many yeas of liberal strangle hold on the main stream media!
WaaaHOOOO!
I bet some day there will be a nice memorial to Bush in those countries for the change for the better he brought them.
The Ghandi incident is my fault, I posted a link from the CIA Fact Book to counter one of his idiotic arguments.
The stupid fool doesn't understand that www.cia.gov website is open to anyone. Now he's got his knickers all in a twist that the CIA is following him.
right zac,and micheal ass moore
will be the speaker at the event...
did you see how stuck on himself
he is he wants you to vote for him,
for the people's choice awards...
puke........icky
buy michaelmoorehatesamerica,it
should be ready now,i saw it,
and it is GREAT....
i hope they do something for bush
someday!!!
he even joked with the brothers
getting his teeth worked on from
them,i read that over at roger l
simon's site......
Omar...I really had to look hard at that Martinrebuplic site...I thought at first it must be satire. (I was laughing my ass off). You must understand that, after losing all the elections, and the battle for public opinion, American leftists are also losing their sanity.
Don't pay too much attention to them. They are flies on the ears of the Mesopotamian bull.
ps zac,
i thought for sure michael ass
would be moving to frrrrrrrrance
by now,cause they so love him there...
and i wonder where george soros
is about now(moveon.org)
and did you know that alot of
people are seeing shrinks cause
bush one....
i hope they are getting really
rich....
Looking forward to meeting your brothers in San Francisco tomorrow. Don't worry about the nutty professor.
Soldier's Dad addressed this above, but I'll add a few more words about Vietnam; another reason why there is no comparison to Iraq:
The Hanoi government was supplied with aid, military assistance, and arms by the Soviets and the Chinese, both world powers.
"According to estimates of the Soviet Embassy in Hanoi, by 1968 Soviet material assistance accounted for 50 percent of all aid to the DRV, and as of 1 January 1968 the total value of Soviet assistance over that period was in excess of 1.8 billion rubles, with military supplies accounting for 60 percent." Reference.
In "By the spring of [1966], some 50,000 Chinese troops served in North Vietnam, a total that may have tripled before China began to withdraw its forces in 1968. Until President Johnson limited ROLLING THUNDER to southern North Vietnam, effective April 1, 1968, China gave refuge to North Vietnamese fighters when airfields in the North came under aerial attack, and reports surfaced of Chinese pilots flying North Vietnamese interceptors." Reference.
And what do the jihadists and dead-enders have in Iraq by comparison? Not much:
* Some old weapons like RPGs (albeit a lot of them).
* Some leftover money, both from the Ba'athist regime, and from foreigners like Zarqawi.
* And... unfortunately, tacit support from some members of the Western media and folks like Riverbend.
Eddie,
bwahahahahaha
We are here for you Ali! Chew them up and spit them out! Stupid media, feel Threatened! After all we are nothing but people in pajamas blogging all day long, we don’t have any clue on what is really happening! Mr. Cole already lost his credibility with me Ali. Good for you! Go get em Ali!
What did I say about keeping the home fire burning?
d-rod - Take 'em on a ride thru the hood. Show them we have dangerous neighborhoods too. LOL
The stupid fool doesn't understand that www.cia.gov website is open to anyone. Now he's got his knickers all in a twist that the CIA is following him.
Soldier's Dad,
Thanks for the best laugh of the night!
It's just natural that anyone that entwined with conspiracy theories is going to become a player in his own drama sooner of later.
Better watch out they may send you to Hollywood next! Are you that hilarious in person? If you are you might end up as a guest host on the Tonight Show... LOL
You must try to give poor Juan a break though. AIPAC and some other special interest groups out of Jersusalem have put Professor Cole in the sites of their lawyers. And when you are in the "gun sites" of expensive legal talent you tend to get nervous, paranoid, and sometimes even delusional. If you ever get the chance to see these groups in action, meet those sort of lawyers you might be better able to understand.
Have read your blogs daily. Great stuff.
When you get hit hard by the left liberals, you are on the move. Keep it up.
Long live free Iraq.
you are all on another roll tonight
bwahahahaha
where the hell are my 6 lovers now?
Lydia, you are just hysterical!
Joanne,
Lydia is right now with the brothers,
so jealous.......
plus i bet it is a bit nicer
for the weather there in LA,then
here,where we hit a high of about 15,
and wind chills of -3.....
plus i'd like to say a year
ago today,
WE GOT HIM
there is a rumor he is on a hungar
strike......
boy baby that INSANE MAN
and i still do not understand why
the wifie pooh and the daughters
are not on an island somewhere
drinking those drinks with the
umbrellas in them....talk about
getting brain washed.....
It was sunny and about 68 in LA today. It would have been 58 if not for all the hot air wind bags blowing out of Hollywood.
BTW,
Professor Cole's analysis and definition of a "Troll" is almost like "the pot calling the kettle black". He spends so much time defending his blog, becoming alarmingly vituperative when any news source claims he is anti-Semitic. It is then that he becomes almost pathetic, writing one abject apologia after another. Only to throw more wood on dying embers with some new extreme, and controversial epithet. Cole most
certainly is a Troll.
Cowboy,when you get a chance,i also
have found Ben Stein to be very
funny on all this hollywood
b.s.,can't do a link,but he
does have his own site,and people
after the election have come up
to him,and to him in secret,
or talked to him about the hollywood
gang,and there are some normal
people out there.....
and great,rub it in on how warm
it was.....thats a heat wave here....
I'm embarrassed to admit that back near the beginning of the year, Prof. Cole announced that he was going to start a project to translate important American documents like the Federalist Papers and others from that era into Arabic and I donated some cash towards that effort since I think it's a worthwile idea.
Ever since then, I've seen Cole say painfully ignorant and stupid things that have made me wince and regret not looking into what else he'd written before hitting paypal.
I still think that sort of translation project would be worthwhile, but it's become painfully obvious that Cole isn't the right person to do it. Ugh.
Hey Andrea, What's a thermostat? I forgot...I think I used to know about them when I lived in BOSOXachusetts. Does it keep a hot toddy warm outside or something? I forgot
Hi Ali,
I know it's been a long time since I've emailed or commented. I'm working two jobs now. But I'm here as often as possible. Loving every word you three write. I'm so happy for your success. You three are getting better everyday.
I hope Omar & Mo bring you back wonderful stories of their trip.
Blessings Always
This person is; lost again in Martiniville, looking for his, lost olive and stick… Do you think this will become a song? HE,HE,HE!
Hey cowboy you like that one? Make it into a song. LOL...snort...he,he
KH said: "Is free elections something just white people like?"
KH: That's a racist remark, too. You slipped up, Bud.
Elections mean the Ba'athist are taking a bath they don't like. Having to live with people who have the right to object, even critisize the old regime. They will never get over it. Bitter people are a pain in the neck until the day they die.
I wish we could get rid of the terms Left and Right and find two words that are closer to how people feel today. Leftists here are thought of as drug adicts or pot smokers with extreme ideas about their rights. They are born loosers.
This Dr. Cole, if he is an academic, as in university professor, don't let what he says bother you -- he's another Leftist crackpot. We know the type, they teach school because they don't have what it takes to be executives in big companies. Usually boring to talk to as they try to impress with their "superior knowledge". They waste their lives memorizing triva that is easy to look up and is of no use to anyone.
I enjoyed reading the news services about Mohammed's and Omar's trips to Washington and other cities. Hope they enjoy it and have funny stories to report here.
Cowboy,i don't have to have
a thermostat outside to know
how cold it is.......the wind
was soooooo bad yesterday too,about
50 mph,did not even step outside
once,things were blowing by....i
felt i was Dorothy in the wizard
of oz...
but the bailey's and coffee's come
out a bit more on the weekends now..
or and getting so dam happy to
start the eggs this weekend....
As the blogger who started the site CryMeARiverbend (which I abandoned after various threats from those who disagreed with my views) I very much enjoyed reading this discussion. It is my opinion after reading many of Riverbend's postings that the primary purpose of her blog is propaganda. The lack of any sort of comments section and her continued astonishment and outrage strike me as telling. One would thing after all the horrors she has described she might finally stop acting so shocked at the injustice, as she sees it, of it all.
On the other hand I have found reading her postings fascinating as they give an insight into the thought processes of some of the insurgents. Her ability to tacitly support attacks against the police while condemning the lack of security is a masterpiece of cognitive dissonance. Or alternatively, brazen rhetoric.
HANG SCOTT PETERSON......
and Amber was VERY brave!!!!!!!!
i hope she can now relax and get
on with her life.......
WTG Ali!
Andrea, Baileys and coffee sounds great! It's just raining here in WA. I have some of that blue mountain coffee rum from Jamaica. yummm! I'll pass on Martini's.
Wastin away again in Martini-ville
lookin for my lost brain an shaker of salt
posting looney leftist drivel on the net
waxing his dolphin to pix of Michael Moore
he's wastin away again in Martini-ville
still sad that the Jews put bacon in Yassir's casket
I know that the bbc + cnn pinkos are gonna hate my song
after all I'm just another liberal turned neo-con!!!!!
hey dcat! How's dat? I just woke up...give me time I can do better!!!
It is so true; those Iraqis who complain the most about the coalition forces in Iraq, also seem to be the ones who have lost the most - as in lifestyle - after the fall of Saddam. Riverbend - Whah! Whah! Riverbend sees life as how much she has lost as a consequence of the fall of Saddam, instead of as how much her fellow Iraqis will have gained - it's called selfishness! Plus she needs some serious PMS relief - nobody should PMS 24/7/52! Somebody get her some Valium!
Hello Ali,
Marvelous, now you're all celebrities! Don't let it go to your head, darling. Iraq needs serious politicans for the suffering Iraqi people, not US bloggers in pajamas. Sistani's and [ whatever still-born] secular list is the reality. Where is the IPDP on the issues--the IPDP web page never seems to change? Do you really need your fan club?
Ladies! Send more $$$ to help find a cure for the dreaded Men's free eye wandering syndrome...we are currently working tirelessly (reading Playboy) to find a cure.
Send your check of cash today to PO box 1, Area 51, Nevada, USA
WE CARE A LOT!
or send cash to our research group @ www.cowboy's-hummer-payments/500/per/month/
Detroit/US
hey ANON, I love my pajama's......
and will always use that in my name...
after rathergate....someone dismissed
us bloggers....what a crack that was
eh? l.g.f. took care of that.....
the msm sucks!!!! blogging rules...
they're idiots, and they know it! That's why they won't put the links, cause you prove it!
One-sided, extremist propanganda relies that you don't see the other side, that's why they won't provide it. It's just like the LA Times or CNN, who didn't mention the Food For Oil corruption or the problems in the Sudan for months after they were old news, cause it doesn't fit their twisted fake world they're selling to the gullible.
That, and they have big egos that make them want to feel important, they can never admit they're wrong, even if it's over half the time, they'll fall back on lies supported by lies rather than admit they're capable of making mistakes.
Right cowboy soon as I win the lotto.
OOps I forgot
It's dcat/on couch/in pajamas
anonymous are you jealous or what?
Daaarrrlliiinnngg Anonymous, no Queen Andrea, I am not trying to snag you another loser - pretty sure this one is a girl anyhow; the Fadhil brothers are providing a great service to anyone and everyone who has access to the internet. We are not their fan club - no matter how giddy we get when they visit the U.S. The brothers are our "in" to the reality of what is actually happening on the ground in Iraq; the media gives us nothing! I don't want to read what some dude, who is about as close to Iraq as I am, has written with his/her own twisted prejudice and then calls it facts. I want to hear directly from Iraqis in Iraq about the goings on in Iraq, whether I like what I hear or not!
The titles of the last seven posts by Riverbend:
"It has been a sad few weeks."
"I'm feeling sick- literally."
"Murder..."
"One of Those Weeks..."
"Rule of Iraq Assassins Must End..."
"Disappointment..."
"Help Someone..."
Now, most people know that war is hell. But most Iraqis also knew, and hated, the horrors of Saddam's rule. Given that Riverbend has shown consistent anti-American negativity about the liberation and occupation, does this truly indicate she was related to one of the Ba'athist families? Or is she just an extreme nationalist, who resents any foreign intervention? Is there any more information on her?
Seriously, how representative is she of (Sunni?) opinion in and around Baghdad?
What kinds of problems will she, and those like her, cause before and after the elections?
i is getting confused,why can't
people just make up a dam name,
instead of ANON......the brothers
can still track who you are....
and i need some help here...
the site meter to the bottom reads
2 things.....one thing says they
have over 1,698,000 hits,another
one says over 2,000,000....
its under archives(love how we
spell that word also)
Ali,
My only problem with your post is that you shouldn't give so much attention to the Martini Republic guys. I have had dealings with them in the past and they are just attention-seeking jerks. They're not worth your time.
One of them actually came on my blog and falsely accused me of failing the entrance exam to become a lawyer! That is not true and he had no reason to say it, so I banned him from my blog. That's the kind of guys these guys are. Don't worry about them.
By the way, I met Omar and Mohammed tonight (as well as a couple of the commenters here) and it was fantastic. Very inspirational. I will post about it later.
but Joanne,opposites attrack.....
plus my crush is on somebody
with a little more knowledge...
Thanks to Janet in Venice who gave me a heads up on the 2 ITM bros in LA. She sent me directions but it is now OVER...I missed it!!! DAMN...I live about one hour from where it was...secret location...I'm not telling exactly where out of respect to the bros. THANKS JANET! I hope YOU made it there tonight.
Patterico,
you had better post later about
the brothers!!!! please,pretty
please with sugar on top!!!
Cowboy,did you get Los Lonely Boys
yet???
check out their website also,
and see their bio first.....and
check out what their dad's name
is and the drummers name......
Whats all the hoobar over people blogging in pajamas? Most of the time I'm wearing bluejeans, and some of the time nothing...
ok,chatty kathy is wiped out,and
can't wait to hear from Lydia,
after meeting the brothers....
night all!!
Ali
Those were a few very funny and sharp barbs in there, besides the more obvious ones! But this is actually a bit more important than some may think. Cole is the incoming president of the middle east studies association. As such, he will have a say in whatever the hell it is that they do, and will of course be fawned on by the press as a "learned voice" on issues and the region. Also, this will cause a trend toward the direction that "scholarly study" in the hallowed halls of acedemia takes and pursues, even though they purport to be a "non-political association."
I hope you can find the time to pay a bit more attention to the drivel he produces.
'night andie
Yo Bobby...Great post...check out Daniel Pipes.org for more info on the terrorist loving ME studies dept's at nearly every US UNiversity...the Saudi bastards fund them...
Try the Ragu!
Why does American music kick ass and take names???
1. Capitalism
2. Freedom of expression
3. We are influenced by the UK and almost everywhere else on the planet.
4. The Lisa Simpson factor.
Ahhh...my brothers...nothing scares people more than to have their beliefs challenged, much less proven wrong. But, don't despair, after all the banshee like screaming and wailing pre-election, this should be a walk in the park for you all.
I will second another person here and tell you that you ain't seen nothing yet. wait until you are full fledged politicos. you will think that this little trip into politics was a picnic in the park. But, I have great faith in you. You've been tried by the hottest fires and made it through.
keep on taking names and kicking ass
mmm
5. Air guitar!
6. We don't just copy...we invent!
7. The melting pot factor.
8. We get a lot of cool immigrants.
9. We tolerate anyone who doesn't fly planes into our buildings.
10. We use electricity!
Just read your post and haven't read any of the comments above, but I just want to say--
You're getting a quick course in what democracy is all about. It's not necessarily pleasant, but it works. The main things you need are (1) a thick skin and (2) a sense of humor.
I'm glad you guys are getting such wonderful publicity. I've followed your blog from its beginning, and you've given me hope that we (the U.S.) did the right thing when we invaded Iraq. Maybe someday those Iraqis who were "humiliated" will forgive us--just as we've forgiven the British for fighting us and burning our capital.
I depend on your blog for a lot of information. Thank you for all your hard work.
Ali,
So glad to see you answering and rebutting what Dr. Cole and Riverbend are saying about you and your brothers and this blog.
Can't believe how some are trying to discredit you guys and your blog saying that you are CIA and everything. They are just jealous because their blog didn't win for best blog.
We who read your blog regularly know that you guys are the REAL DEAL!!
Take care and hang in there!!
Attention Trolls and BBC and/or CNN employees:
The ITM bros ARE NOT affiliated with the CIA. They never were. Trust me because I am with the CIA. I am in charge of hiring and thought control mind wave beams. I caused the St. Louis Cards. to choke in the World Series. I also am in charge of feeding the giant Eagle who is wide awake and still wants to do another bombing run!
Cowboy
It was Calabria Roasted Garlic Sauce tonight (on sale). That stuff's got a bite to it! I had to tone it down with a sprinkle of sugar (before it was on the plate)
OMG! That was quite a read over at the martini place! 
Can you believe Gandhi's whining? Too funny!
Ohhh, ahhh - this was great - thanks guys. You're awesome - just keep doing what you're doing, man. Of course I believe you are completely correct in everything you say in your post - and apparently that makes me some kind of GOP/Bushite/CIA something-or-other!
Zac LOL!
I never tell anyone when I'm not wearing my pajamas!
What a post Omar! I see it as you guys are a force to be reckoned with and this reaction proves it!
Consider the source.
Ali,
Now that post was a "Slam dunk"
It appears that Cole must have wasted his time on a very expensive education.
When all the leaves are brown
and the sky is grey
and the sky was grey
California, California dreaming
On a winter's day
I went into a church
Went into a church to pray
California, California dreaming
Two ITM bros in LA to say hey!!
On a winter's day
Oh Christmas tree
Oh Christmas tree...
We wish you a Merry Christmas
And a happy New Year!
Oh God, Gandhi's on Martini Republic blathering on about his conspiracy theories on I.T.M...
"I was also threatened with personal violence by people who trawled my blog for details of my name, address and ISP. I believe there are CIA agents monitoring the comments at ITM who now have this information, despite the fact that I have not made it publicly available.
...
Self-aggrandizing paranoia anyone?
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 12.13.04 - 8:21 pm | #
He should change his name to "Agent Mulder"
Oh good maybe I can work for them. Nite all!
Seems to me that the Martini Republic is jealous and probably got more hits and comments about ITM than any others. Juan Hole is so blinded by his hatred of Bush he doesn't want to believe anything is going good in Iraq because it would mean he is wrong. He is a self important moron.
These naysayers and defeatists fall into darkness when you shine your light of hope on the world Ali. They are showing their desperation in the grips of their death throes by lashing out at you. What else could explain it. They never cease to amaze me.
Thewiz: Also read "VietNam: A History" by Stanley Karnow. It reinforces some of your points about statements made by General Giap. If I remember right, it also mentions Walter "This war is now unwinnable" Cronkite as one of Giap's primary motivators to continue fighting. Hmmm. . . the press giving moral support to the enemy? Can't imagine that.
Great post, Ali!
And I just want to add that I'm not of the "right wing" and I support you, Omar and Mohammed and the cause of civility and freedom in Iraq.
The naysayers and negativity peddlers are simply assholes.
Here's the direct link to the Simon article. It's truly a great read.
It's sad that anyone would insult or question the motives of you for being brave and idealistic while on the edge of uncertainty.
I've been reading you for a long time, wanted to thank you for being an inspiration to me, and hope that your fellow countrymen are similarly inspired in the upcoming elections.
It's also my hope that your brothers were treated with the hospitality that all of us wish them in their visit to the United States.
"... Or if you can't live without talking about Iraq, then keep it poetic. It saves my time and your reputation."
YEEEAAAH!
andrea and Cowboy;
A thermostat outside would be a great idea! Instead of being one of those people who always complain about the weather but never do anything about it, you could just turn the thermostat up or down and adjust the temperature to suit!! Your fuel bills might be astronomical, though . . . .
Ali...Thanks for your referral to the martini blog. After reading the comments, I realized something about conspiracy theories. I realized that conspiracy theories are something that people make up when they want something to be true so bad that nothing else can make sense.
Obvious, but then I was slow to realize this.
how is iraq now ????
thinker-USA, you said it exactly what I was thinking, just finished reading the martini blog and comments.
As usually they (the warped ones) sound so far-fetched, that I can only hope these are a small minority, who have access to computers and not anit-psychotic medications.
Ghandi, is unreal. Wonder how he has managed to live this long, With traffic lights and all. He admitted to trying to sabotage this blog.
NEWSFLASH - the Fadhil bros are REAL.
I was fortunate enough to see them wandering in the lobby with Kerry Dupont and immediately knew who they were. I introduced myself.. they recognized the name and big smiles, hugs and yes *kisses on the cheek from andy* ensued. Omar asked where andy was.. I assumed too much and thought he knew she wasn't coming, so I simply said, Minnesota. D'oh!
Mohammed was so vibrant.. it was like meeting an old friend. Same for Omar who seems to be a bit shyer. We sat down and not a minute later, a woman walked up w/out saying much, but the bros seemed to know her and asked her to sit down, so I thought maybe she was commenter. Turns out she was from the LA times and wanted to finish her interview. I didn't know this so introduced myself... the god-damn disdain I was met with!! I felt like I was meeting the queen of england! She didn't even offer her name and barely shook my hand!
contd..
Of all the awful people to shake hands with, an LA times reporter. And Mohammed later remarked how much he hates that paper.
So Kerry politely excused her and I, and we went upstairs. The meeting went wonderfully, and I met Patricia, Paterico, janet from venice beach and a whole host of others. We all hung out afterwards for a bit... I so wish it could've been longer but the bros looked tired. They're funny, intelligent and highly respected among those who are pushing for freedom there. One gal in particular, a teacher, was there only because she was a supporter of SoA. She hadn't heard about ITM, or even blogs, and she was quite eager to learn about these things. The frustration we all share about the MSM is quite widespread, and it was the main reason given by Mohammed as to why he decided to start blogging. TRUTH.
cont'd
"And, if it turns into a catastrophe how many of you are intellectually honest enough to admit it? Or will you be like my father and believe that "we still could have won in Vietnam"?
Michael"
Failure would be Saddam back in power. Nothing else matters since the object of the operation was regime change. There were a lot of secondary objectives, but the #1 goal was removing Saddam from Power.
Your Father is correct. YOu must get your history from some dried up old commie who is trying to relive his youth. I'll bet you think that it was guerrillas that won in Vietnam.
You need to learn some history boy.
That's the past, let's look to the future. The Elections will come off better then the experts imagine. That will not stop the civil war. Civil Wars end one of two ways. Either one side exterminates the other (think France in 1786 or the 1917 Communist revolution in Russia), or there is a political settlement reached. The Second happens when one side is markedly weaker then the other, but still able to fight. I'm hoping the second option comes into play in Iraq.
The US will keep troops in Iraq for a long time to come. By the end of '05, there will be a Presidential (Maybe Prime Minister, depending on what title the Iraqi's choose to give the job) election. After that is over and there is an Iraqi Government in place that is more Legitimate then any other Arab government, the USA will sit down and negoiate a basing agreement. I expect that there will be at least 1 Mech Division and/or an Armored Division plus an Air Wing based in the Kurdish Zone. I suspect we will be quite welcome.
Your mistake is putting too much emphasis on Body Counts. Body counts sell air time by improving ratings, but politically THEY DO NOT MATTER. In 2105, the number of humans that died in the second battle of Iraq in the Liberation War (aka WoT) will be the answer on a history test. Nobody else will care.
I have posted some thoughts about tonight's event here.
Lydia, it was good to meet you and other commenters tonight. I left fairly soon afterwards because I had had a good chance to talk with Omar and Mohammed before the event, and did not want to take up too much of their time afterwards, as so many other people would want to talk with them.
Patterico...Thanks for the link!
I love that..."Support, love, and encouragement".....
What great men these guys are.
They fielded questions and talked extensively about the Arabic blogging tool. I'm so thankful for Jim Hake, for providing them with this opportunity.
Like I said, you feel like you're seeing old friends again. It was an absolute delight to meet these guys.. they're extremely positive, which is, I imagine, why we all flock here. But I tried to convey to Omar that it isn't just that, it's how well they write their thoughts.
He and I didn't stay on that topic long... we decided gossip was funner! Ghandi? Thy name is shit.
It was wonderful to meet you, Patterico! Yes, w/out even reading your link yet, I know exactly what thinker is mentioning about "support, love and encouragement".
Nice job, guys! To use the basketball analysis, nothing short of a full court press of ideas will keep your detractors from reveling in such pessimistic, mistake-by-mistake analysis (like Cole likes to do) with the goal of discrediting your future. As I have learned here in Lebanon (a country very short on optimism), pessimism is often the tool of those who benefit from political inertia. After all, it is your future and not theirs - keep up the good work and I wish you luck.
==========================
Iraq Election Related News
==========================
Election campaign will be allowed from December 15. As well in many other democratic countries, posters, bill boards, radio commercials, TV commercials, debates, town meetings, Internet campaign, and other activities might be seen until the last day of the campaign.
nice blog ali.
i don't understand every ones obsesion with riverbend- and she does not say she was a diplomats child? her exact workds were:
There are thousands in Iraq like me- kids of diplomats, students, ex-patriots, etc.
so she might be a kid of expatriots? or students? or etc.
Muna...the US is an optimistic country and people here do not understand passive aggressiveness as a character. This is the character of hopelessness and always seeing a glass half-empty instead of full.
It is a typical trait of oppressed, dependant people. Most people here do not understand it...its more like a fascination because people just can't understand it.
muna: our obsession has to do with the fact that 'riverbend' spends all her time 'pining' for the GOOLD OLD DAYS of Saddams reign. Being a diplomats 'kid' would mean her family was one of the favoured of the regime and enjoyed relative safety, freedom and wealth that most of her fellow countrymen did not.
One other comment:
It's a 'bitter pill to swallow' having 'anti-bush/anti-american/anti-'whatever'' folks posting here calling the majority of the posters names and claiming the brothers site is 'propaganda'. It's interesting that these idiot's posts ARE HERE for all of us to read. In other words...ANYONE can visit and post their comments (it's called freedom...to support or attack). Why doesn't Riverbend and 'Dr.' Cole allow the same?
correction... looks like the site 'Dr Cole's' article is on (linked in blog post) does take comments. sry about that
sry, have to go and think up more propaganda and slander...see u guys later
THANK YOU LYDIA!!!!!!!!
and i love it,gandhi's name is
shit....bwahahahaha
email me later,or you have my number..
funny Brian H.!!!
but thats MN people for ya,we spend
most of our time talking about
the weather herecause in a minute,
it can change....
Omar,if you are reading this,
i only emailed 10,000 times in
the last week for you guys to
call me!!!!!!!!
so do it dam it!!!!!i left my
phone number a couple of times...
this is for the LA reporter,tell
the dam truth!!!!!!!!
Thank you to all who have posted their thoughts and stories on the brother's visit. I've followed each link and have enjoyed the perspectives.
I find it hard, in the light of all the evidence to the contrary, that anyone can maintain their "conspiracy theory" mindset. There are just too many people who have met, talked to and enjoyed the brother's company. Also, it is quite simplistic, and a little prejudicial, to believe that all people, of a certain geographical background, should hold one set of ideas as a whole. We do not hold the same ideals, why would they?
In any case, I think what most outsiders fail to realize on their visit to this blog, is perhaps the one thing we all have in common, or at least most of us, is that we are all lovers of freedom. To the brothers, this is more then a philosophical debate or an intellectual exercise. It is their future that is at stake and so they have stepped up. They are willing to risk in order to gain. As we watch their path and their progress, we sit in awe. I want to thank the brothers for allowing us, through their words, to take this journey with them.
There will always be those that sit on the sidelines and say you can't. The best way to answer them is just to make them irrelevant by doing.
It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
Theodore Roosevelt
i forgot one thing before getting
ready for work...
THANK YOU SPIRIT OF AMERICA!!!!!!
"Plus his field of study is History, which is not a branch of academia that requires much in the way of mental discipline."
I disagree. History, if done properly, demands a rigorous, unbiassed analysis of the original documents and primary (first hand) sources. It is very tempting to select only the documents that support your preconceived ideas.
So I think history requires more mental discipline than science, as the temptations are greater.
That is not to say that J Cole in particular is a good historian. I know nothing about him.
"There aren't 15 million insurgents in Iraq, or 1.5 million insurgents, or even 150,000 insurgents. The best guess number is 15,000"
I think that is an underestimate. You are forgetting the 70,000 criminals released from jail by Saddam, and the large number of unemployed men who don't like Americans and will do a bit of insurgency for cash.
Certainly the numbers are much less than in Vietnam, and IMO the violence will be largely contained over the next year or two. Occasional explosions are to be expected for the next 20 or 30 years.
Hello Ali...
Cole is an America-hating leftist idiot, and of course he hates anyone who even appears to like America - particularly anyone that thinks America is doing any good in the world. He deserves to be ignored as the whack-job he is.
Wish I could have been free to meet your brothers, but my work precludes such possiblity. Maybe one day in Iraq...
Best to you and yours...
This is hillarious. We have two people ie the "Nutty Professor" and his side-kick telling two Iraqi citizens what is going on in their country and how they feel/ should feel about the Coalition in their country.
Granted the "Nutty Professor" did his studies from academia but I seriously doubt he was in Iraq during the time of Saddam asshole. Same with his side-kick.
Ali:
I am sorry I didn't get to meet you on this trip to America. I hope I get to meet you on another trip here -- or perhaps someday soon in the free and safe Baghdad. Take care.
- jeff
woops, I have to retract an apology....MartiniRepublic allows comments. Our 'illustrious' nutty professor (Dr. Cole) does not. and has followed up with a post on his site (no comments allowed of course. musn't bother with the 'unwashed', non-doctorate masses)
To Omar and Mohammed:
Scientists have determined that the brain capacity is limited. The brain can only "hold" so many thoughts, memories, stories, experiences, etc.
The surest way to prevent the brain from dangerously "filling up" is to dump its contents in written form. Some experts believe the "blog" would fill this role in relieving the brain.
Therefore, I would encourage you to blog your recent experiences right away!
"heads up on the 2 ITM bros in LA"
Don't feel bad Cowboy, I was in LA at the time myself and was left out of the loop too. Its all for the best, there is a lot to do and not much time left before their election.
After they win, they will be even more busy.
Dear brothers,
You'd better get over the delusion that numbers of pro-american vs anti-american bloggers reflects the opinion of Iraqi voters. Especially after Fallujah, support for the Americans has probably dropped to single digits.
My suggestion, if you want get any votes in the upcoming election, would be to get Riverbend and the Jarrars on your team and let them be the spokes-people for your party.
Winning elections in a democracy doesn't mean saying what you believe unless lots of voters share your beliefs. (And your american friends are not voters). Winning requires gaining an understanding of how the voters are thinking.
My suggestion, if you want get any votes in the upcoming election, would be to get Riverbend and the Jarrars on your team and let them be the spokes-people for your party.
There's a suggestion. Mind you, not a very good one.
Tell me Ken, if you are a Democrat, would you want Condoleezza Rice to be spokesperson for your party with hopes of swinging Republican votes? Of course not. Two different groups and opinions. If you read Riverbend and compare it with the brother's philosophy, you will also notice they are not like minded.
I am sure the brother's are the best judge of what segment of Iraqi voters they will appeal to .
What makes people wake up and decide they know more about what is happening in Iraq then the Iraqis?
It is interesting that with less then 2 months until the election is held, the brothers are campaigning in the US. Do they know something we don't know about how to win this election?
http://newstandardnews.net/conte....cfm/items/
1311
"What makes people wake up and decide they know more about what is happening in Iraq then the Iraqis?"
Its called polls. Anybody who wants to can read them. Much more useful than just talking to your friends (in America and Iraq).
"Do they know something we don't know about how to win this election?"
Maybe the fix is already in.
Would the US 'fix' the election in Iraq to make sure if conforms with US interest? Bush has said that he will always act for America's interest in the world. Is it in America's interest to have a theocratic government aligned with Iran?
You Rock Ali!! I've felt the same about senor Cole for a while and have basically stopped reading him, because his regurgitated news I've already read most of it and can come up with my own analysis and opinions.
Keep it up,
Dunerati
hey what a way to start work,
my lover Ash,is back in town...
Its called polls. Anybody who wants to can read them.
Well, then Ken, since I am sure you can also read the polls, you must know that over 80% of the Iraqi people want free elections.
Something that Riverbend does not want.
Also, the majority of Iraqi people are happy that Saddam is gone. Something that places Riverbend in the minority again.
I am not telling you that the brother's are in the majority. I think popular opinion is something that THEY are better able to gauge. But they are furthering their own views on the direction that Iraq should go.
Sometimes, it is not about winning, it is about the ideas.
But again, I would say that is up to THEM.
It's my understanding the Spirit of America hosted a dinner in NY and wanted to hear them speak.
But of course (twilight zone theme music here), we all know the fix is in. The EVIL Bush administration (you know, Bush the stupid, bumbling, incoherent...AND, Bush the Brilliant Strategist and Super Genius Villian) will insure that the brothers win. Because we all know how he has that level of control in Iraq, right??? I mean everything's going just perfect for Bush right?
If we're going to have to endure your conspiracy theories...at least make them non-contradictory.
New reader via Instapundit here.
You guys have a great blog and from now on I'll be checking in every day (yes I am new to the world of blogs)
Re the elections: Everyone on the left was sure the elections in Afghanistan would be a chaotic mess, complete with vote rigging and wholesale Taliban bloodshed. They were wrong.
Now we are hearing much the same about the upcoming Iraqi elections.Personally I think the left wants Iraq to fail, just as they wanted Afghanistan to fail. So let's make the left go 0 for 2 in election prognostications [actually, 0 for 3 if you count our recent election ]
a warm welcome to Betsy!!!!
i've been an addict since april
with this blog.....
Thank you Andrea
Thanks to the blogosphere I can find out what is really going on in Iraq & Afghanistan- I just can't trust the media on this. Not that I've ever trusted the media all that much but I'm sure you know what I mean!
Just returned from Martinirepublic. Looks like the visitors from ITM have clearly won the debate about the relative credibility of the brothers over people like Riverbend.
Now, having said that, I wonder if I may be allowed to engage in a little conspiracy theorizing of my own. Does anyone have any ideas as to Riverbend's motives. The secretive way that she operates leads me to think that she may have strong links to Saddam's regime. She cannot expose herself because those links would become evident and her credibility would be shot.
The way that she started blogging - already speaking and writing excellent English, and knowing our slang and knowing so much about our culteral environment, tells me that either this is not a native Iraqi or if it is a native Iraqi, it is one who has spent considerable time in the west. Now, who under Saddam's administration was able to do that?
Riverbend was offered an interview with a USA Today reporter and she did not respond. Why?
There are probably people here who have read more of her posts than I have. Have any of you noticed anything which would shed more light on the subject?
Did it occur to the Juan Cole and the conspiracy theorists, before they made asses of themselves, that if Iraq the Model were a CIA front, it would be incredibly stupid for the it to say as much in a domain registration? It's like if the CIA controlled the world, and perfectly covered up all the evidence for it, except for the big sign in front of a building in Washington that says "CIA World Government Headquarters, tours available from 9am-4pm."
Heck, the fact that the letters C, I, and A appear in Iraq the Model's registration should be evidence enough for a conspiracy-addled mind that it has no association with the CIA, whatsoever.
Hi Betsy,
I don't think that the elections in Iraq will be as smooth as those in Afghanistan; but I think that they will have a big enough turnout to be credible.
And you are right, the left desperately wants democracy in Iraq to fail. They would rather see any amount of suffering and oppression for the Iraqi people than see Bush have a success.
Betsy,
i have not turned on cnn for months
and months,i don't watch ANYTHING
on CBS since rathergate...not even
when the Vikings are on that
station....
Ken wrote:
"Especially after Fallujah, support for the Americans has probably dropped to single digits."
Where is your evidence that Fallujah caused support for Americans to fall.
Dear mark
thank you for your replay.But what is scared me is what riverbend said about the election and how the Sistani the Iranian religious cleric control the candidate list ,is this mean that iraq is going to be another Iran ?
Do the world need another one ?
And there are all this news about how they start treating the other non muslim minority ?
did you read Najma(star from mosul) blog about her chirstian teachers?
that what i am confused about and sadly the brothers didnot seem to mention this.
Doorgunner, thanks for the info on Viet Nam history. This past election was very maddening as the Dems gave many speeches that can and were used by the terrorists to encourage their followers and recruit more. While it is not only right but also important to be critical of Bushes policies, (the recent flap on armour and the quick response the publicity caused is a good example), it must be done with the knowledge that any criticism can be used overseas and thus should be done with extreme caution. Many of the Dems leaders were way overboard and some still are. Someday in the future, maybe another "Gen Giap" will write a book telling how the wailing of the left encouraged the terrorists to continue their evil ways.
Dear Neda,
Riverbend is an idiot. There are a huge number of candidate lists. Sistani only has significant input to one of those lists. And even the list for which he has significant input includes people that are not Shia.
I don't see any strong evidence that Sistani wants a theocracy. I believe that he wants religion to play a role in government, but not to be the government. Additionally, all past polls have shown that most Iraqis do not want a theocracy. Sadr would like to run a theocracy, but I can't see him getting many votes or having much influence.
It is interesting that with less then 2 months until the election is held, the brothers are campaigning in the US. Do they know something we don't know about how to win this election?
Ash,
I agree, the brothers likely know something you don't know about the election and how to win... For example, they know that they can't campaign in Iraq yet. This will likely be their last opportunity to travel internationally for quite a while. Since they are not allowed to campaign in Iraq yet it makes sense to visit the country that shed its blood to make elections possible, not all are as honorable or as honest (remember as pointed out in the Nov 28 post on ITM, other parties are cheating on this rule). Once the campaign begins in earnest in Iraq the Brothers will be too busy to travel. After they win, they will be even more busy.
So yes, perhaps they do know something about how to win the election after all.
May Iraq grow and prosper as a free nation, and may the hard efforts of brave men such as the Fadhil brothers leave its mark of liberty indelibly on that ancient nation.
Neda: From all accounts that I have read, there is little to fear about Sistani and the Shiates establishing an Iranian style theocracy. They have seen the disaster that Iran has become. Even the Iranian people are near revolt and desire a western style democracy.
The history of Iraq has been one of tolerance. The Christian minority has been practicing freely for decades. Its only this past year that they have been attacked and all evidence is that it is the terrorist insurgents that are behind them. Seems they are so desperately afraid of democracy that they are willing to start a civil war.
eL Sadr tried the fundy road but was putdown by the Coalition with the full support of the people of Iraq, especially the citizens of Najab who saw first hand what terror they did.
The truth is that a fee democracy is much more likely and that democracy will inspire the Iranians to revolt against the theocracy and set up their own democracy. This why the Iranian governmet is supporting the terrorists so strongly.
Ali stands on the sidewalk. Dr. Juan Cole lays on the pavement. joshlbetts runs over, looks down at Dr. Juan Cole and shouts, "YOU GOT KNOCKED THE FUCK OUT!"
Here is the link to the current status of the election lists. Looks like the Sunni religious leaders are starting to buckle concerning their threat to boycott the elections. They have submitted their own list of 275 candidates.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?
tmpl=...q_election_dc_2
I think that the Sunnis have realized that they need to jump on the train before it leaves them at the station. This their big chance to be part of the new government. If you ain't party to writing the constitution, you aren't gonna get much say in what happens.
Now they need to publicly call for an end to violence or they may be under-represented. And if they don't call for an end of the violence, they deserve to be left out. One of the hardest lessons of democracies is that responsibility for ones actions is paramount.
Ash,
[It is interesting that with less then 2 months until the election is held, the brothers are campaigning in the US. Do they know something we don't know about how to win this election?]
There are all sorts of "Cultural" exchange programs going on, some sponsored by church groups, some by fire departments, some by police departments, even some sponsored by the US State Department.
The fact that the "Mouth Piece" of the American Communist Party would somehow find these programs to be some sort of devious plan is neither interesting or suprising.
Tito rote: "Where is your evidence that Fallujah caused support for Americans to fall."
What part of the word "probably" don't you understand.
"Winning elections in a democracy doesn't mean saying what you believe unless lots of voters share your beliefs. (And your american friends are not voters). Winning requires gaining an understanding of how the voters are thinking.
ken"
This is the most concise explanation I have read for why the Demonrats keep losing elections. The Way to govern in a democracy is to develop a logical position and then make a plan to persuade the voters that your solution is the best. Leaders should LEAD. Leaders that FOLLOW only make sense to Liberals.
POW!
THWONK!
BAFF!
Batman?
No, just our gang beating the living hell out of Juan Cole! Wow! He's getting his arse beat up and down main street today! I've never seen anything like it.
Check out my collection of updates at:
Iraqi Bloggers Central.
*
Ken wrote:
"What part of the word "probably" don't you understand."
Where is your evidence that Fallujah "probably" caused support for Americans to fall?
The majority Shia and Kurds were angry about what the insurgents were doing in Fallujah. The insurgents had imposed a Taliban style environment there. Even the majority of Fallujans wanted them gone.
Been watching the unending replays from Al Jazeerah showing the Marine shooting the insurgent, have you Ken?
theWiz,
[I think that the Sunnis]
If I rescan the May blog of the brother's, their cousin is Sunni. What would that make the brothers?
I can't find a reference where they say whether they are Sunni or Shiite.
Tito rote: "Where is your evidence that Fallujah caused support for Americans to fall."
What part of the word "probably" don't you understand.
Fallujah probably didn't hurt American credibility as much as you think it did.
Two can play at that game.
Let's all make things up then use the words probably to support our theories.
Tilo: She's indicated in her posts that she spent some years "abroad" (presumably somewhere which speaks American English), then had to return after the 1991 war; from this and some references she's made to diplomats and family, it looks likely she was the daughter of someone in the Iraqi Embassy (or consulate) in the US - a Ba'athist position implying significant trust, since anyone who opposed the regime could easily escape while working in the US!
There was also a reference early on to losing her job. She tried to spin it that it's because she was a woman, but the talk of hostility from her co-workers (male and female) on her return, as well as a quote about "women (particularly those we can't protect)" and her talk of how connections were/are essential to jobs - a connected, rich young Ba'athist who used family connections to get herself a job before the war, now resented or worse by her former colleagues? Not exactly unusual I suspect...
(Also, as I mentioned earlier, she's commented on how much cheaper her electricity was before the war, unlike for normal Iraqis: perk of being connected, with family in the government, perhaps?)
Holy smokes, you folks are as bad as the 'Brother/CIA Conspiracy people' when you talk about Riverbend. For those of you who don't actually read what she has to say, here is an excerpt from her last post: http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
"People are wondering how America and gang (i.e. Iyad Allawi, etc.) are going to implement democracy in all of this chaos when they can't seem to get the gasoline flowing in a country that virtually swims in oil. There's a rumor that this gasoline crisis has been concocted on purpose in order to keep a minimum of cars on the streets. Others claim that this whole situation is a form of collective punishment because things are really out of control in so many areas in Baghdad- especially the suburbs. The third theory is that this being done purposely so that the Iraq government can amazingly bring the electricity, gasoline, kerosene and cooking gas back in January before the elections and make themselves look like heroes.
We're also watching the election lists closely. Most people I've talked to aren't going to go to elections. It's simply too dangerous and there's a sense that nothing is going to be achieved anyway. The lists are more or less composed of people affiliated with the very same political parties whose leaders rode in on American tanks. Then you have a handful of tribal sheikhs. Yes- tribal sheikhs. Our country is going to be led by members of religious parties and tribal sheikhs- can anyone say Afghanistan? What's even more irritating is that election lists have to be checked and confirmed by none other than Sistani!! Sistani- the Iranian religious cleric. So basically, this war helped us make a transition from a secular country being run by a dictator to a chaotic country being run by a group of religious clerics. Now, can anyone say 'theocracy in sheeps clothing'?"
Nowhere does she say she is against elections. She does say she has problems with this election in particular. A perfectly valid claim.
I am really glad to see some one who can finally make the left shut up about Iraqis and how much they hate us. Your blog is a refreshing read, and I will certainly never go to the University of Michigan. I wish you lots of luck and keep writing!
oops, Riverbend http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
Thanks James,
Saddam didn't let anyone out of the country that he didn't trust completely. It means that Riverbend's family had a lot to gain by cooperating with Saddam. Why doesn't the left consider these things when they put their faith in her?
I have no idea what her history is or how she learned english. Even if we accept your theory as true, that she was the daughter of a high ranking diplomat and she spent time in the west, so what? What matters is what she says. It is similar to my dismissing anything you say simply because you are an American. What is important is what you say not where (historically or geographically) that you say it.
She writes well and she offers another perspective.
Ash,why don't you hang out at her
site instead,i am very jealous now
and don't want to see you ever
again.....
Nowhere does she say she is against elections. She does say she has problems with this election in particular. A perfectly valid claim.
My mistake.
Although, from the limited amount that I have read, she has been critical of the elections. I do not know that she is against the elections.
Of course, I would have no reason to criticize Riverbend or tell her she is wrong. She appears to be just what she says she is and it is her perspective she is representing.
So why do people feel the need to make the brother's into something other then what they are telling you they are?
Juan Cole, good lord, the man has ire for everyone except those that stand up for tyrannical systems.
Someone tell me how this guy got to be a 'voice' for ME relations?
BTW - Boo! CIA! booga-booga. Heaven forbid that an agency that seeks to give information to the people who stand up for freedom be considered an asset rather than something to be derided. I think many people, here in the US, and abroad, have simply lost their everloving minds.
I do not know. I guess it makes it easier to dismiss their views without addressing the content. This tendency appears to be endemic on this comment board as well. I am astounded at the number of vacuous, belittling posts here. Andrea, take a look in the mirror.
Ash,
i did,pretty cute today,even
in my new pajama's,today we
are sporting a red,long,backless
nightgown...
To those of you who think the media is biased a quote from another blog:
"At one point in history the media in the US had a liberal bias, given that the media was dominated by intellectuals. Now, we are witnessing corporate dominance of the media industry with vertical integration of the various properties. Some of these media orgainizaitons even publicly state that the editors of the subsidiary properties must conform to the parent comapanies 'editorial policy'. While there is some diversity in the US still, we are witnessing a diminishing amount of critical opinion, with the majority of that opinion conforming to the 'corporate, republican' agenda."
James
Andrea, thanks for the confirmation on the vacuous portion of my statement.
Soldier's Dad, the brothers are sunni. I believe the non-practicing type of sunni. They are cosmopolitan rather than religious or tribal in scope. They will probably (that word again) do well in Baghdad, but out where they are not known, doubtful.
Having visited America and having an audiance with Bush should give them a leg up on other not-well-known cosmopolitan politicians. I don't know how large an area they will represent if elected, nor who they are running against.
Straight from CMR's blog:
http://
crymeariverii.blogspot.co...ii_archive.html
Specifically Friday, June 4. He gives an analysis of Riverbend's nature. Some key points being her having apparently lived in the US and being 'forced to leave' during a period when the only people being forced to leave where Iraqi diplomats and their families from the Iraq embassy. The fact that her blog name implies she lives in the area reserved for Saddam's closest political allies is another interesting point. The pieces all seem to fit, like I said before in the comment section for this thread. It is not that hard to figure out why someone sitting in a middle of the most pro-Saddam section of the one city that remains the most unstable and divided (short of the ones acting as insurgent camps), that she migh have an extremely skewed view of things. It is also telling that during the start of the Fallujah mess, she mentioned relatives of hers leaving the city to come and live with her in Baghdad, while at least one remained in Fallujah to fight (and forced his son to stay with him). Her only comment, to paraphrase, was, "I bet the US shoots them and then claims they are two of the non-existant foreign fighters they claim are in the country.". Not to mention her contention that Fallujah was some sort of utopia and all the dead bodies in the streets where from attacks by the occupiers.
-
Basically, she is pulling the same couch potato quaterbacking some people over here are. The only difference is she is sitting in only slightly less safe conditions in Baghdad. About all she has to worry about in the US forces getting fed up with her blog and turing the bend in the river into a sink hole. I seriously doubt she has even been to any other part of Baghdad since she started blogging, let alone any other part of Iraq. She gets her news, in her own words, from people like her relatives, who are insergents, and family member of insergents, from Fallujah and are not going to be telling any side of the story, unless it protrays them as true patriots and everyone else as the murderers.
Ash,you ain't my lover no more...
thats the last you will hear from
me, TROLL....
The money quote: 'It seemed that the movie was about him not the “revolution”.' You nailed that one Ali! For the good Dr. Cole, its more about notoriety than truth.
I'm sorry you've run into this segment of the American intelligentsia. Their bark is worse than their bite, but they sure can be annoying especially when they are in control of much of American academia.
The rest of us just tell them what they want to hear on the college exams, and wonder how the 'intelligentsia' became so stupid.
Andrea, do you promise?
I guess the TROLL part now confirms the belittlement portion of my statement.
Ash,
Here's an interesting conspiracy theory for you.
Advanced Combat Helmets are made in Vermont. Howard Dean, an avowed anti-war activist was governor of Vermont.
More US casualties would fuel anti-war sentiment in America,increasing Deans chance of winning.
Why was production of the helmets so slow before Howard Dean dropped out of the presidential race?
Have I discovered a left wing consiracy or am I spouting pure hogwash?
I think I'm spouting HogWash.
Lydia, congratulations on meeting the brothers!
Andrea, say it ain't so ... that relationship looked like it had so much potential ...
Miss Neuman, good to see you here.
Defense Guy, the funny part about the CIA conspiracies is how often Agency and POTUS have been working against each other, especially in areas like Iraq. ITM is exactly the kind of "propaganda" the CIA doesn't like.
To be known by the caliber of ones enemies. The score so far...
ITM 2
Juan Cole 0
Hey JC, care to make it a hat trick?
Andrea,
I... I think I love you.
Andrea, why not call it Ashtroll ?
Asher,i know,i just went a box
of kleenix over it...
Anon,
a stalker,got to love it
WX,
won't even say its name no more
Soldier's Dad, I agree with you. I'm not big on conspiracy theories. With respect toward the Bush administration, I think the problems are generally bad leadership and lack of foresight. On the contrary, the problems with the upcoming elections are so glaring and the likely outcome so much not in America's interests that a conspiracy theroy starts to look good versus believing the Bush Administration is so incompetent.
Hi Ali - Good article. I find it amusing that every time you guys get a little publicity - from speaking in public or being quoted in newspaper interviews, the propoganda theories start anew. Its like with each new bit of proof that you guys are for real, the harder some have to try to dispell the facts.
Soldier's Dad: The Ghandi incident is my fault, I posted a link from the CIA Fact Book to counter one of his idiotic arguments.
Soldier's Dad - the CIA joke has been going on here since the beginning. About once a month someone new shows up and asks if ITM is a CIA-run site. The brothers have made jokes about it. The original suspicion came, IIRC, from the blog host's use of CIA Tech Solutions. The owners of CIA Tech explain the meaning of their company name and it has nothing to do with 'The' CIA and have been quite surprised to find their company subject to these propoganda speculations. Others have pointed out that all Iraqi blogs, both pro- and anti- US, using this free blog service show this same link. Reaction created by making something out of nothing. What's new.
Lydia, and others: Too damned cool.
1. Everyone involved in the media-- print, television, radio, and the internet-- is a person.
2. Every person has an opinion.
3. It is difficult-- impossible, really-- to be completely objective, no matter how hard one tries. You can be closer to objectivity (e.g. PBS's Frontline, which mostly tries to be fair, vs. Michael Moore, who doesn't), but all "documentaries" and "news items" are presented with a subjective twist. Sometimes the slant is in the story itself, sometimes it's just a subtle word choice or method of presentation.
4. Therefore, everyone working in the media has a bias one way or another, and it's impossible to hide completely. So all media is biased.
5. The question is: in which direction is it biased? Well, read the web pages of the New York Times, the BBC, Fox News, Al Jazeera, the Los Angeles Times and others. Listen to the radio. Read magazines, and alternative sources of media. Then draw your conclusions.
After having done so myself, it's clear to me that there is, indeed, a liberal slant to most all of the nation's major newspapers, the major networks, CNN, the BBC, about half of the internet blogs, and public radio. This leaves "right-leaning" views to AM radio, the other half of the internet, Fox News, and some magazines.
So yes, there is an overall liberal bias if all things are added up. Most of the time, it's not overwhelming (ABC and CBS are hardly bastions of Soviet-style socialism)-- but it's there.
And don't get me started on academia, which is much more slanted.
Ash, about the only one crying that the Rep control the media is Bill Moyers, an extreme liberal. Foxnews is indeed fair and balanced, maybe leaning a bit to the right, but always giving both sides. It just seems to be rightist because the MSM has always been so left that to hear a defense of the right's beliefs sounds strange. The MSM, consisting of the big three networks, CNN, the major newspapers-LA Times, NY Times, et al, are left of center. The only strenght that the right has is on talk radio, which is major right.
The worst part is that most people don't even watch the news and thus their sources are rags like People Mag, ET Tonight, and comedians like Leno, Letterman, and Comedy Central. Maybe the three minutes of news at the top of the hour on the radio music channels.
There's no conspiracy at all with the brothers. As I said before, they're not spies, just opportunists making money. Go for it, guys, hope you make a lot of moolah. And make sure that every penny you make for your "political party" goes into a private Swiss account. There's no telling what will happen to Iraq once Sistani's boys come to power in January. Good luck! You're learning the ropes of Halliburton-style capitalism real well - get the American tax payer to foot your bills.
Adam, I agree everyone is biased, necessarily. What objective means have you used to classify what is 'liberal' vs 'conservative'? Or are you using your own opinions as the baseline and comparing the various 'media' to your opinion? Have you used statistical analysis to support your conclusions? I would submit that CNN has a conservative, pro war bias.
Ash ?? the Bush administration is incompetent ? We just reelected him. Therefore we don't have a clue, right ? But you, Ash the great, knower of all, keeper of facts, you know what is right.
How the hell have I made it this far without Ash the great ?
Arrogant Shit Head !
Kris,Seattle,
On Ghandi -
I just thought I would confess to causing it all, seemed an easy way to end the absolutely ridiculous speculation.
"The worst part is that most people don't even watch the news and thus their sources are rags like People Mag, ET Tonight, and comedians like Leno, Letterman, and Comedy Central. Maybe the three minutes of news at the top of the hour on the radio music channels."
thewiz, I'm right there with ya bro on that comment. Comedy Central's The Daily Show with Jon Stewart provides the most 'news' out of bunch, even though it is all 'fake'.
Juan Cole is pond scum
Folks - Jeff Jarvis also debunks Cole's conspiracy theories over at his site today. Click the link above.
Jeff Jarvis -
I enjoyed reading your posts about the SoA project and your meeting with Mohammed and Omar. Nice to see you comment here.
yep, that's what I said, wxjames, the Bush administration is incompetent. Look at the lose-lose situation he's put the US in in Iraq, and the deplorable finances of the US to provide just two examples of his mismanagement. He just got elected, true, and he has four more years to hasten the decline of the American Empire.
CNN seems closer to the middle than they are accused of being (it is interesting to note they've been accused of bias by both sides). As for the war, I think they've exploited it to some degree-- sensationalized the coverage, especially the violent elements-- for the simple purpose of higher ratings.
During the presidential campaign, I used to switch between CNN and Fox News to see the differences. Here it was more clear: CNN put a positive spin on Kerry stories, just as Fox did the opposite. (And vice-versa for Bush stories).
On Shocks & Awes - an Iraqi Perspective
"Both "Shock & Awe" campaigns have shocked decent people around the world. However, many people in the States were only shocked by the second campaign. Why? Because the first was conducted by respectable professionals who were doing it for a noble cause. Besides, pressing a button to send death to scores of people, or ordering such an act, is definitely more "civilized" than beheading them with a knife and recording the proceedings on video, isn't it?
The result is that the American "Shock & Awe-I" campaign and the "Shock & Awe-II" campaign being conducted by those forces of darkness have caused a great deal of suffering for the Iraqi people. In both cases, innocent people were the fodder in the tactics of "great" men in pursuit of what they regard as "noble" goals."
Ash, lose-lose??? Thats gonna draw a lotta fire, better put on yer pith helmet. Seems like a win to me. SoDamn Insane is gone, elections are about to take place. Soon a democratic Iraq will rise fom the ashes (Hmmnnn source of yer name? ). The entire peoples of the ME are now talking about democracy, if quietly in some of the more repressive countries.
Hows about being more specific on Bush's mismanagement? He has run it pretty well. Some things coulda been better, some things were outta his control.
"There is just no question that I, among others, have a liberal bias. I mean, I'm consistently liberal in my opinions. And I think some of the, I think Dan [Rather] is transparently liberal. Now, he may not like to hear me say that. I always agree with him, too, but I think he should be more careful." - Andy Rooney, 2002
"It has taken us a long time, too long in my view, to have vigorous conservative voices heard as widely in the media as they now are. And so I think yes, on occasion, there is a liberal instinct in the media which we need to keep our eye on, if you will." - Peter Jennings, 2002
"There is a liberal bias. It’s demonstrable. You look at some statistics. About 85 percent of the reporters who cover the White House vote Democratic, they have for a long time." - Newsweek Washington Bureau Chief Evan Thomas, 1996
Adam, ya, like in negotiations, if both sides are unhappy you've probably hit the middle. The US, in general, has made a wholesale shift to the right in the last 20 years, so what was once 'the centre' is now 'way out left'. Lyndon Johnson used to talk of the 'Great Society' and JFK had the old "Ask not what your country can do for you..." Pretty left by today's standards.
Ash, you may be very young, and you may be very smart. Can I provide a test to determine what we Bush supporters are up against ?
Here it is:
Name 5 things the Clinton administration did wrong.
From your answers, I will know what your level of understanding of the executive branch of America's government is, and what is your scope of world political understanding.
Ken
One big difference between the two; The US attacks were directed entirely at military and governemt targets. I even remember seeing the people of Iraq gathering by the river to watch and driving around the city during the bombing because they knew they weren't being targetted. We have even used bombshells filled with concrete instead of explosives to limit the damage to just the target. Sure some innocents were killed, war is hell. But the terrorists are intentionally targeting civilians, women, and children.
Additionally, his point that both sides claim the moral high ground is well taken. But the US is calling for free and open elections so that the Iraqis can determine their own fate. If the terrorists were so moral, they would agree to open elections too.
wxjames, I'm not keen on trying to prove my worth, my age, or how wealthy I am in experience. Regarding Clinton, I do believe he should have been turfed from office for lying under oath. Henry Hyde said some very intelligent things in the run up to the impeachment vote. Clinton was impeached yet he remained in office, that was bad for America. It has sullied the office of the United States President by condoning lying under oath. GW Bush has furthered that tradition with his statements in his State of the Union addresses.
Oh, so you are from the 'Bush lied' school of liberals. Actually, Bush never lied. The MSM has carefully painted that picture so they could pick our president, but we wised up in time to counter their lies and get our man reelected. We will further dismember the MSM within a period of time so that they can never pick our president. You probably think the Swift Boat Vets for Truth were supported by the white house. If so, before you grow into a free thinker, you will have to purge your brain of those lies. When you realize that the SBVT were normal Americans who could not stand to read and hear Kerry's lies so they came together to expose him, then you may have a clear mind. Kerry, Clinton, Hillary, they all lied, but Bush never.
In regards to "noble" goals:
Increasing freedoms of the press, disallowing persecution of religion, tolerating free association, encouraging private ownership of business, reducing barriers to trade, attempting to enact protections under the law against political arrest or arbitrary intervention by the secret police, and a rebuilding of infrastructure are noble goals.
The re-institution of a theocratic caliphate, dragging Baghdad back to the 12th century, not affording rights to women, other ethnic groups, other Muslim sects or secularists, radically and violently interpretating scripture a'la the Taliban, and not drawing a distinction between "the infidel soldier", the "the infidel foreign aid worker", or the "Iraqi collaborator"-- these are not noble goals.
While I understand that violence is wrong no matter how it happens, relativism is a lazy position to take!
There is a difference if one lies in a campaign and if one is under 'oath'. Bush's assertions on the Niger yellow cake, were, ummmm, problematic. He is under oath when giving the State of the Union.
If you would like to get technical, read the constituion
http://www.house.gov/
Constitutio...nstitution.html
or check out:
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/
...wtoimpeach.html
"UPDATE: A LAWYER BRINGS MEAT TO THE TABLE:
The Case for Impeachment
The wheels are really coming off Bush & Co.'s case for the Iraqi war. In particular, little reasonable doubt can remain that Mr. Bush did not know the following statement, made during his 2003 State of the Union Address, was a lie:"
Most people seem to think the current insurgency is the result of mismanagement, especially not having enough boots on the ground. Here is my take; when the war was about to start,we were trying to get Turkey to alow us to base troops there for a northern assault. We had 35,000 troops on ships, and an additional 5000 British waiting for an aproval that never came. I believe these were the 4th ID, which id the best equipped, best trained division we have. One reporter quoted a military man as saying that they are five times more lethal than the rest of the divisions. They were to come down through the Kurd areas and take on the Gaurd troops in Kirkut, Fellujah, Tikrit, and all the towns of the Sunni Triangle. These were the best of Saddams troops and the most loyal as they were from his home area.
Because were denied permission by Turkey, these enemy troops were allowed to sit there unmarred. Once Baghdad fell, they decided to dissolve into the civilian population and begin a gorilla war.
If we had been able to engage and destroy them before the fall of Bagdad, we wouldn't be having near the probelms we are having now. Most of these guys would have been destroyed long ago and the area would have been pacified. Plus, we would have had an additional 35,000 troops on the ground to control looting and establish security.
The one big failure was a failure of diplomacy with Turkey. But Turkey was against the war because they are sacred to death of a free Kurdistan on their border. After all, they fought a bloody, Kurdish based rebellion during the nineties.
Adam,
On the subject of biased media, I like this: "Bias is in the eyes of the beholder. The more bias one has, the more bias one sees."
Its essentially just a summation of your idea, that everyone is biased.
When someone is complaining of a specific bias, it is often just because they are biased in the other direction. Some information mediation venues (media) are biased in one direction, others in the opposite direction. The blogs are some of the most unmediated information sources as they are typically the experience of a person or in this case some brothers in Iraq.
More blogs please?
Ash, during the looting of Baghdad after addams fall,reporters showed people emptying barrels of yellow cake so that they could take the barrels for water collection. Enviromantelists and health experts were fearful of major health problems arising from this.
Also, the UN UMOVIC team verified Saddam was experimenting with yellow cake and the purification of it.
Where did the yellow cake come fom?? How much did he have?? Was he getting more??
One of the documents from Italy may have been a forgery but that doesn't mean that Niger wasn't supplying Saddam.
Ash...I thought the yellowcake fiasco was proven to be the work of French intelligence misinformation. At least I read that from many sources.
So, Ash, your aim is to impeach this lier Bush. How nobel. Did you come to this blog for support ?
Make your case. I've gotta run.
Wow! Ash - you are so wrong on so many things in your latest post. Kennedy policy would be considered RIGHT WING in this day and age. 'Ask not what your country can do for you..etc..' is NOT left by todays standards. Not at all. The left wants government to do everything possible and BE everything possible to as many people as possible. JFK' famous statement above is the exact opposite of that.
As for Lyndon Johnson - he is the father of welfare who enacted all the socialist programs proposed by FDR - he expanded them exponentially. He did more damage to this country with his socialist, leftist ideology and the implementation of that.
What you have seen happen is that the democrat party has been hijacked by the leftists. What were once democrat principles seem to have no place in the democrat party that we know today.
I find it interesting that after 8 years of Bubba Clinton you feel that the US as a whole has shifted to the right.
What I see happening is that 9/11 woke up a bunch of the silent majority in this country. Thank God!
The attempt to buy yellowcake from Niger was not a lie. As a matter of fact, it was the truth.
Monica,
i dumped Ash as my lover,have had it
i am still so upset,make note to
self,must drink many beers tonight...
Ash
[The Case for Impeachment]
It would seem that a Clinton appointee has admitted that it was his mistake. So much for your "impeachment" theory.
Tenet admits error in approving Bush speech
President 'had every reason to believe' uranium claim, he says
Andrea -
You have to kiss a lot of frogs before the prince actually comes 'round!
yeah sure Monica,whatever you say...
at age 45,i guess a couple more
won't hurt,right?
More on the issue about Niger, uranium, forged documents and the illicit trade that had been going on for years, leading to Bush's statements:
Financial Times story.
It appears there was legitimate concern, stretching back some years, about an illicit uranium trade in Niger, particularly with Iraq. Because an unscrupulous Italian businessman may have forged particular documents does not mean that the British or American intelligence services knew that at the time of the State of the Union Address-- or that the concern with Niger was misplaced.
ribbit, ribbit
Bush's words in the State of the Union Address:
"The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."
That's what both the British and American intelligence services were telling him at the time!
cute,thewiz
From Ash
"I would submit that CNN has a conservative, pro war bias."
This the same CNN who admitted to spouting the party line when asked to by Saddam? Oh yeah, we should listen to anything they have to say about Iraq.
I know Andrea. It's what my mother used to tell me anyway. I'm married to half frog/half man - almost 17 years now!
Turns out - there are no princes!!
I think you are making a good choice in dumping Ash, though!
Ash writes:
>>"Holy smokes, you folks are as bad as the 'Brother/CIA Conspiracy people' when you talk about Riverbend."
Thanks Ash, but at least we acknowlege that we are playing that game. And we don't take ourselves too seriously at it. That being said, what Iraqi poster do we know less about than Riverbend? And which Iraqi poster is a greater darling of the left than Riverbend? Which Iraqi poster would actually refuse an interview with USA Today?
>>"For those of you who don't actually read what she has to say, here is an excerpt from her last post:"
Thanks once more Ash. In virtually any of her posts you can find something that is either propaganda, misleading, a lie, or all of the above. And the post that you have so graciously provided has examples as well. Try this:
>"What's even more irritating is that election lists have to be checked and confirmed by none other than Sistani!! Sistani- the Iranian religious cleric. So basically, this war helped us make a transition from a secular country being run by a dictator to a chaotic country being run by a group of religious clerics."
Here we have a blatant lie. Sistani does not check election lists. He is only concerned with, supportive of, and influential in one out of more than 70 lists. He has approved that one list and that list includes Christians, Kurds, Sunnis and even some secular Shiites. The rest of the lists he has no say about at all. But obviously Riverbend would like us to believe that every candidate for election must pass some sort of extreme theocratic litmus test. That is her lie du jour.
>"Nowhere does she say she is against elections. She does say she has problems with this election in particular. A perfectly valid claim."
Of course she doesn't explicitly state that she is against elections. She is well aware that she is writing for a western audience and you can't be against elections and not be considered a nut case in the west. She does, however, say this.
>>"Most people I've talked to aren't going to go to elections. It's simply too dangerous and there's a sense that nothing is going to be achieved anyway. The lists are more or less composed of people affiliated with the very same political parties whose leaders rode in on American tanks."
She obviously wants to discredit the elections by saying.
A) "Most people won't vote." Probably wrong since 14 million are registered.
B) "Nothing is going to be achieved anyway." Not for those who lived the good life as Saddam's tools. Not for Riverbend, since she will no longer be able to claim that the government is the puppet for the US.
C) "The lists are more or less composed of people affiliated with the very same political parties whose leaders rode in on American tanks."
This leaves Riverbend with two untennable positions. First that the lists are made up of theocrats and second that they rode in on American tanks. Obviously she is looking
The brothers are in San Francisco today? When? I'm in Sacramento, not too far you know. Anybody know? Anybody?
Monica,it was a hard decision.....
wowie,17 years....
Like I said, the Niger claim was, ummmm, problematic.
thewiz, on your Turkey theory. If the US came in through Turkey, chances are Sadaam's forces would not have engaged there as well. The government of Turkey, a democracy with, what, 90% of the population not in favor of supporting the US, refused permission to the US to stage the invasion from their country. Yes, Turkey is worried about Kurdish terrorists (remember one mans freedom fighter is another man's terrorist) trying to claim a portion of Turkey for their homeland. The world is indeed a complex place.
The increasing number of attacks against US forces occuring throughout the occupation suggests that the insurgency is growing, not just a fixed number of Sadaamites acting as 'dead-enders'. The Shia are quiet, for the moment, things could get even messier if they don't assume power in the upcoming election.
The kids playing in yellowcake that you mentioned, is news to me. Have you any links to support this? Is this the Yellow cake that Bush was referring to?
There were a number of misrepresentations made by the Bush administration in the lead up to the war. Impeachment is a political act requiring congress to act. I do not think the present congress is so predisposed. Many of the misrepresentations have been thouroughly debunked, though I see many here still cling to them.
Regarding Clinton, yes, he is more left then, say Bush, or Bush I, or Reagan, but he was also faced with a Republican congress so it was difficult for him to push his agenda very far. Hillary's health care being one of the first and most publicized failures. In general the US does appear to have moved more right over the years, but, these designations of left and right are awfully fuzzy and I'd prefer to talk of specific policies myself. For example, Bush's free spending ways is something usually associated with the 'left' or the 'democrats', but it is done by the 'right' and it is a serious problem.
Melissa,
you may want to go to
spirit of americas web site
info maybe there......?
Ash wrote:
"Even if we accept your theory as true, that she was the daughter of a high ranking diplomat and she spent time in the west, so what?"
So what? I would think that it was obvious. The only diplomats for Iraq were people that were extremely loyal to Saddam. Their treatement and their pay far exceeded that of most Iraqis, otherwise they would never have returned from their diplomatic posts. The war certainly caused such people to fall from their opulent life styles and if Riverbend is one of these people it would mean that she has much to resent as a result of the coalitions liberation of Iraq. And it would mean that her reporting would be radically biased against the US and against the Bush administration.
You know...
I forgot to say the other day to the brothers...
"Happy Saddam Capture Day!"
Will it become an Iraqi National holiday?
Tilo,
I agree there are flaws in Riverbends logic. She reminds me of many thoughtful young women I've met. They don't vote in US elections either.
I've been informed in these comment sections that there are 100 million folks in Iraq, and you've informed me there are 14 million registered voters. I don't know if these numbers are anywhere near accurate or not, but that give us 14% of the population ready to vote. Hardly most. Given the chaos in Iraq and the inability for even reporters to move around in the country, I am very sceptical of 'polls' of Iraqi's opinions. I'm having trouble visualizing the average Fallujah'n sitting down to dinner, when, inevitably, that pesky poller calls to ask a few questions.
OH! Here is a nice sarcastic comment for you all.
I find that Afghanistan is an abysmal failure. Argue all you want but it is true. How can this be so? Well if Iraq is a failure and they are having elections about a year before the Afghanis did then what else can Afghanistan be?
Tis only logical.
Ok I do not think my brain can handle thinking like a liberal elitest snob anymore today.
OH THE PAIN!!!!!!!!!
What's all this fuss about yellow cake?. I've found it to be quite tasty.
Why cant I post a comment on "Riverbend" That feature would be nice to shed some light on her narrow mind!
too funny Anguisel
Iraq has about 26 million people, give or take. 14 million out of that would be around 54%.
Given that over 40% of the population is too young to vote, the 14 million may be a bit high.
Ash,
According to the CIA Fact Book -
Iraq has a population of 25 million.
The median age is 19.2 years.
Assuming 18 as the voting age, there are only 14 million who are old enough to vote.
CIA Factbook on Iraq
Neda writes, "thank you for your replay.But what is scared me is what riverbend said about the election and how the Sistani the Iranian religious cleric control the candidate list ,is this mean that iraq is going to be another Iran ?"
A note of caution, first: No one can perfectly predict the future, Neda. Not even I.
Second, we'd have to decide what "another Iran" means. If that means country ruled by clerics, that seems *extremely* unlikely. First off, even the set of candidates that Sistani endorsed isn't composed exclusively of clerics...or even has a majority who are clerics. That alone should provide sufficient evidence that Sistani doesn't support a theocracy.
But there is also quite a bit of information on the Internet about Ali Sistani. There is even a website:
http://www.sistani.org
...that has many statements from Ali Sistani. I encourage you to read some of them. My impression from all his statements is that he is very supportive of democracy and the Rule of Law. Here is just one example:
http://www.sistani.org/messages/...es/eng/
mee3.htm
Democracy and the Rule of Law (i.e., that the government is run according to laws, not the whims of present leaders) are NOT what is in Iran today. Iran is a dictatorship, run by clerics.
Neda asks, "Do the world need another one (Iran)?"
No, Iran alone is one too dictatorships. However, I'm confident that Iran won't be a dictatorship forever. Yet whether Iran becomes a democracy in 1 year, or 5, or 20 or more, I can't say.
"And there are all this news about how they start treating the other non muslim minority ?
did you read Najma(star from mosul) blog about her chirstian teachers?"
Yes, I read Najma's blog about her Christian teachers. I found that post extremely troubling.
That is one flaw of democracy. Pure democracy does not necessarily protect minorities; majorities can be tyrannical, too.
It is also possible for one or just a few extremely brutal people to dominate whole masses of people. For example, if one or a few extremely brutal men (and unfortunately for my sex, it *would* always be men!) throw acid in the faces of a few women who are not wearing veils, and those men are not clearly and severely punished, that intimidates all women into wearing veils. And it intimidates them into not complaining publicly about it, either.
Neda concludes, "that what i am confused about and sadly the brothers did not seem to mention this."
Yes, the brothers: 1) focus mainly on events in Baghdad and Basrah, 2) seldom discuss bad news, and 3) don't really seem to cover "big picture" stuff. I think:
1) They focus on Baghdad and Basrah because that's where they are. But it would be good if they (and other Iraqi bloggers) commented a little more on issues outside where they live.
2) They deliberately don't discuss bad news, because they think the rest of the world is already covering every bad thing that's happ
Oops...continued:
2) They deliberately don't discuss bad news, because they think the rest of the world is already covering every bad thing that's happening in Iraq quite thoroughly.
2) Their lack of focus on "big picture" issues is disappointing to me. Let's take the issue of women wearing veils (or head scarves, or whatever). Some questions regarding this are:
a) Should the *federal* government of Iraq make laws saying either that women must or can not wear veils, scarves, or whatever?
b) Should the governates or localities (towns or cities) be able to make laws saying that women either must or can not wear veils, scarves, or whatever?
I would definitely prefer that none of those levels of government should be given the power to either compel or forbid women from wearing veils, scarves, or whatever. In fact, I would consider it important enough to write into the Constitution of Iraq that limit on government power.
But if some level of government in Iraq DOES have that power, it's much better that it be localities (towns and cities) that have that power. Because then, to some extent, women (and the men who love them) can "vote with their feet" to either avoid or go to those localities.
There are many issues related to the Constitution of Iraq that I don't see being discussed in Iraq. That disappoints me.
But one thing I'd like to close with: Iraq under Saddam Hussein, in my opinion, was among the very *worst* places in the world to live. I think it's very unlikely that, a decade from now, many people will be able to say, "Iraq in 2014 is worse than it was under Saddam Hussein."
Maybe Riverbend will still be saying that in 2014, but I think the vast majority of Iraqis (80+%) will disagree with her.
There are a little over 25 million people in Iraq. 40% of them under the age of 14.
But you can do the math, can't you?
And I would also suggest that those thoughtful young people who do not vote(I'll use your description since mine does differ), do not really get the right to complain.
According to Greenpeace, there were about 500 barrels of yellowcake around the Tuwaitha facility. Here is a story.
Here are some more pictures. (you have to change the year to 2003 and press "view").
Where the yellowcake originated is debatable, but it may have come from Al Qaim, an Iraqi installation near the Syrian border that was rebuilt after Gulf War I.
Ash; it is my contention that the Saddam loyalists would have stood and fought any troops coming down from Turkey as did the ones in the south. But once Bagdad fell, they knew it was time to fold their tents and commence a gorilla war.
As to the yellow cake. I know of no references but I believe that I saw it on MSNBC. Don't know fer sure as my remote thumb is quicker than my brain. There many blue barrels that people were dumping out for the barrels for water collection.
And yes Bush should have pulled out the old veto pen at least three times. But he didn't want to alenate Congress anymore than he already had. Big mistake, IMHO
Hey Mark, good post!
Ash writes:
"I've been informed in these comment sections that there are 100 million folks in Iraq, and you've informed me there are 14 million registered voters."
Sorry Ash. When I posted that about 14 million Iraqis were registered I assumed that you knew that there were about 26 million Iraqis total.
According to this site, 13.9 million is the current tenative voter roll.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2004...s/
election.html
The way in which the UN election advisers collected these rolls, however, required very little from the people being registered. My guess is that the number of actual voters will come very close to western standards on turn out.
Tito rote: "Where is your evidence that Fallujah caused support for Americans to fall."
What part of the word "probably" don't you understand.
ken | Email | Homepage | 12.14.04 - 12:33 pm |
Just to let people know, this post was not mine and from another person with the same handle. There are many ken's on Iraq blogs these days. I begin to think changing handles.
I have some personal insights about the morons and scum who have been impugning the Fadhil brothers, here.
one flaw of democracy. Pure democracy does not necessarily protect minorities; majorities can be tyrannical, too
Mark,
This flaw is primarily a theoretical flaw. Democracies in current implementation have many political devices to protect minorities so this flaw (with some notable exceptions) is absent in modern successful democracies. Some of these devices have been discussed at length here and elsewhere in regard to the implementation of democracy in Iraq.
The ability of a democracy to politically protect minorities is as essential in Iraq as it is in America.
The most important protection is typically the Bill of Rights (or the document that suits that purpose in any democracy) One other such minority protection is the filibuster. Another is the system of checks and balances among all the houses of government. Anything that can slow the steady pace of government expansion can protect minorities.
As we are all acutely aware, the ability to protect minorities is of great importance to maintaining a stable and peaceful Iraq by keeping all minority groups maximally engaged in the political process. Sufficient protections for Sunni, Kurd, Christian and other minority interest groups is an important factor in keeping the peace.
"Hey Mark, good post!"
Hi, Ash. Thanks. Hope Neda is still around to read it. (It took a while to write. )
Ali, I went over late last night and put some comments on the Martini blog.
ModDem writes, "Democracies in current implementation have many political devices to protect minorities so this flaw (with some notable exceptions) is absent in modern successful democracies."
Yes, I almost didn't put in that statement. But I was a bit troubled by Najma's ("Star from Mosul's") seeming attitude toward the Christian women. It's very important for majorities to protect minorities.
"The ability of a democracy to politically protect minorities is as essential in Iraq as it is in America."
Yes, in fact, I think it's even more essential in Iraq. If the Shiite majority comes in to replace the Sunni minority tyranny with Shiite majority tyranny, that will be very bad. In America, there is a much longer tradition of protection of minorities.
"The most important protection is typically the Bill of Rights (or the document that suits that purpose in any democracy)."
The Bill of Rights is only worth something if it is enforced. In the United States, for example, for all practical purposes, the Tenth Amendment is completely ignored. Further, various other amendments are egregiously violated (e.g. the First Amendment by the Campaign Finance Reform law).
"One other such minority protection is the filibuster. Another is the system of checks and balances among all the houses of government."
Yes, and it bothers me that Iraqis don't seem to be discussing what I think are very important issues in that regard. For example, in the United States, judges (e.g., Supreme Court judges) are appointed for life. In Iran, they are appointed (I don't know about the life term). In Iran, the judges being appointed is a disaster. I also think that U.S. Supreme Court judges serving a life term is a mistake. The time to address such issues is when the Constitution is being developed. As I have written to the Fadhil brothers, I think they should *already* have a Constitution at least sketched out. If not finalized. (But I know their constant meetings with G.W. Bush leave little time for other pursuits. )
"Anything that can slow the steady pace of government expansion can protect minorities."
Any place where there is a "steady pace of government expansion" is likely a place that is broken! The Rule of Law carries the implication that there are defined limits on government power.
"As we are all acutely aware, the ability to protect minorities is of great importance to maintaining a stable and peaceful Iraq by keeping all minority groups maximally engaged in the political process. Sufficient protections for Sunni, Kurd, Christian and other minority interest groups is an important factor in keeping the peace."
On a slightly related topic, I think it's important that the Constitution in Iraq should have some mechanism for parts of the country LEAVING Iraq. For example, my suggestion would be something such as:
1) No governate (province) can vote to leave for the first 10 years,
2) Aft
Sistani is pretty clear on the protection of minorities
To support my thesis that the Bush administration has led badly here is an article in the Christian Science Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/12...09s01-
codc.html
which concludes with:
"So yes, the administration is right to press ahead with elections in Iraq as scheduled: It's the best option on a list of bad options. But the White House should not think that it can get a vote in Iraq and claim victory in stabilizing the nation. After all the votes are counted and the government of the new "free Iraq" is enshrined, the bigger question will remain.
Now what?"
Shoot! I forgot to save, so I'll have to re-create:
2) After 10 years, a governate can secede following two referenda, spaced 3 years apart, in which 70+% of the population of the governate votes to secede.
3) All citizens in the governate are granted the right of Iraqi citizenship (so that they would become like Canadians living in the U.S., or U.S. citizens in Canada).
4) The governate seceeding would have to assume it's "fair share" of the debts of Iraq at the time of secession.
5) Parts of the governate that didn't want to secede would be allowed to stay.
This whole thing would be very messy, and require much discussion. But the important thing would be to eliminate problems like the partition of India and Pakistan, or the problems in Chechnya.
I don't see Iraqis discussing this; I think that's a big problem, because my reading of blogs by Kurds is that the overwhelming majority of Kurds don't want to remain part of Iraq.
Of the 14 million potential voters, what portion are women ? Women would be the majority and if they flub it they will be treated as second class citizens. It is critical that the Iraqi women stay involved with their new democracy until the culture accepts all the changes necessary to assure their equality and fair treatment in domestic issues as well as oportunities.
Soldier's Dad writes, "Sistani is pretty clear on the protection of minorities."
Yes. My general impression of Ali Sistani has been like my general impression of Hamid Karzai. Neither man is a George Washington. (Only because there is only one George Washington!)
But as leaders go, Afghanistan and Iraq could do far, far, farrrrrrrrr worse.
And I'm particularly impressed that Sistani apparently does NOT want to enter politics himself.
Assuming Iraqi Kurdistan were ever, in the future, to become just Kurdistan, what would happen to the Kurds in Turkey and Iran and Syria?
Here is a map of the area in question. (light tan color)
After all, much of the Kurdish-majority areas are actually outside of Iraq.
Would the Kurds in Turkey, for example, press for secession there, too, and a unification with Iraq's Kurdistan?
Would Turkey's, Syria's, and Iran's governments preemptively crack down hard on Kurds in those areas?
What would be America's or Britain's role, if any, in protecting the Kurdish people?
These issues must be addressed carefully.
Adam, The Iraqi democracy will have an enormous effect on the area. Kurds may immigrate there, Syrian Kurds may force an issue not yet addressed, Iran may be forced to either open up and hold real elections or close up tight and become our target (so to speak). Then there's Jordan, SA, Kuwait........big changes a comin.
One, of many, arguments against invading Iraq was just how this Kurdish problem could destabilize Turkey.
WXJames, that's my great hope too. The whole "liberalizing effect on the Middle East" thing. Especially in regards to Iran.
As for Kuwait, there's some positive elements, but hopefully women will receive the right to vote soon! It came down to a very close decision (one vote, I think) against it in parliament a few years ago.
As for the Kurds, hopefully it will lead to a peaceful emigration to Iraq, if necessary, rather than redrawing the borders or a crackdown, or civil strife.
Ash are you a Turk ?
Kuwait allows every religion on earth to practice there. Another good sign.
Adam, reality check. There will be problems. Bombings, killings, whatever. This is the ME.
It seems to me that the primary dispute between parties in Iraq is all about money. Specifically, who gets the money!
The Iraqi government currently gets a whole bunch of money from oil sales and then gives it out in the form of salaries and services (and probably a lot of payoffs in between).
I think the easiest way to solve this whole issue is to privatize the oil industry and GIVE A PRECISELY EQUAL NUMBER OF SHARES TO EVERY IRAQI CITIZEN. Then there would be no dispute about it being "fair" or not.
The Iraqi government would have to collect a whole lot more taxes, but this can be seen as a good thing! There is a theory that collecting taxes makes people more interested and more participative with their government.
Yellowcake, I could go for some Chocolate Cake with thick chocolate frosting. . .
Has Ali been meeting with an American congressman in Paris? Probably not, but an interesting story:
(Via LGF from the New York Sun)
Representative Curt Weldon has information about an Iranian plot to attack the US. (Hat tip: LawHawk.)
WASHINGTON - A senior Republican congressman has been warning America’s intelligence community for more than a year of an alleged Iranian plot to crash commercial airliners into a New Hampshire nuclear reactor.
Since February 2003, Rep. Curt Weldon of Pennsylvania has held a series of secret meetings in Paris with a former high-ranking official in the Shah’s government who has correctly predicted, according to Mr. Weldon, a number of internal developments in Iran ranging from the regime’s atomic weapons programs to its support for international terrorism, including Al Qaeda.
Based on two informants inside the mullahs’ inner circle, Mr. Weldon’s source, whom he code-named “Ali,” relayed allegations to the Pennsylvania lawmaker that an Iranian-backed terrorist cell is seeking to hijack Canadian airliners and crash them into an American reactor. The target of the operation was only identified by Ali as SEA, leading Mr. Weldon to predict it was the Seabrook reactor in New Hampshire, about 40 miles north of Boston. Ali told the congressman that the attack was first planned for between November 23 and December 3, 2003, but was postponed to take place after this year’s presidential election.
For nearly two years, Mr. Weldon tried to quietly press the CIA and a Senate panel that oversees Langley to follow up on the intelligence his Iranian source in Paris was providing. But these efforts came to nothing, according to Mr. Weldon. So now Mr. Weldon is going public. The congressman said in an interview last week that he intended to publish a book early next year outlining the intelligence he has collected from various sources that he said will detail an Iranian plot to conduct a more lethal attack on America than September 11, 2001.
Rich: " pessimism is often the tool of those who benefit from political inertia." Great line. Sure describes the anti-liberationists everywhere, doesn't it?
Tilo;
Big Sis would like to impose Sharia, but I don't think he'll get the mandate. I agree with Ali, that the majority of both bloggers and the populace are pro-liberation, pro-American, pro-democracy, anti-terrorist, anti-theocracy. Even in the supposedly Shiite south, local elections have left extremists of all stripes in tiny minority positions. It's going to be like Afghanistan: a roar of self-determination and irrefutable repudiation of the reactionaries.
I believe that a culture raised on payoff type operating system will continue to use that method until acted upon by an outside force. I guess that's a problem in all third world countries, and others.
Equal ownership may help overcome that kind of problem.
Of course there will be violence regarding the Kurdish question, especially (as there has been for decades) in Turkey. But there are, of course, different levels that this violence can reach. It could be a low-level annoyance, or it could be very difficult indeed.
That having been said, I would tend to think that with an American force in Northern Iraq (at the request of its Kurdish inhabitants), neither Turkey nor Iran would be willing to gamble with making any risky military moves against the Kurds in those countries. But I also don't think Turkey would accept a breaking off of its southeastern region-- so we may be seeing a lot of emigration to Iraqi Kurdistan in the future from that area, assuming that I.K. continues to achieve the same kinds of economic and political successes as it has recently.
(On a side note, it is interesting to see that Oil-for-Food had its only success in Iraqi Kurdistan, and actually helped rebuild the area, due to the American no-fly zones.
Miss Neuman;
Welcome back! Please stay, you've been missed. You made many incomparable contributions.
Mister Ghost, I tend to believe it. There is every reason in the world for individuals to inform on Iran. first, Iran is controlled by a tightly knit group. Second, they use outside thugs to intimidate the masses. Two reasons why anyone with a brain would bet against them and thereby turn pro-US. That means intel is available.
Yes, it was great to meet Omar and Mohammed and to hear their story in person. It felt like a reunion with fellow commenters like Lydia and Janet and bloggers like Patterico. It is truly a small world! Amazing evening.
I didn't see any CIA agents there--no men in trench coats talking into their watches.
The world is changing, friends, from the ground up, so join up and support the Iraqis and groups like Spirit of America who are taking it all to the next level!
No, I am not a Turk.
oops before Andrea chimes in, a Turkey maybe
Weren't there any male commenters there ? We bucks may need a vision of you ladies before we take it to another level.
"Why cant I post a comment on "Riverbend" That feature would be nice to shed some light on her narrow mind!"
RM, I believe you've answered your own question ...
Be careful Ash...I make a mean pot of turkey soup in my spare time...one time I made it for a cold, hungry ghost from Armenia.
Ash, so if your not a Turk, then why care about Turkey's aledged instability ? That's just an excuse not to act. One of a stack of excuses, I might add.
i am just glad the afair is over...
i did what i said on make note
to myself earlier in the post,
drink a few beers tonight.......
and still sporting what i said
i have on......except,i had to
add something to my legs to
keep a little warmer......
Mark;
Just use the Back button; the post will reappear, then cut&paste after going Forward again. NP.
And you might like to read more deeply on sistani.org. Take a look at his rules for temporary marriage, for example. He has a huge backlog of Sharia laws he wants imposed.
Thank you Brian, added that to my favs.
Brian, it is somewhat sad that we are looking to a person like al Sistani for hope in Iraq. He is mucho better then Mqty al Sadr though. Sadr is also a very real 'player' in the Iraq.
wxjames, why worry about Turkey's stability? you ask. Well, Iraq is just a piece in the larger puzzle of the world. What the US does there does not just impact Iraq, and Iraqi's, but its effects move far beyond it. The Isreali/Palestinian issue also ties intricately into the puzzle. I have followed that conflict for quite awhile. Bush acted like a puppet for Sharon. We must look at the 'facts on the ground' huffs shrub. If Bush would have read Ariel Sharon's autobiography he may have realized the more subtle, Sharon defined, meaning of those words.
Why, pray tell, do you care so much about Iraq? So much so that you urge Bush to spend more and more of your tax dollars to play in that game?
When will we get to hear from Omar and Mohammed again? I want to hear what they talked to Bush about
Screw Turkey...they cost us A LOT by not letting the Eagle cross their borders to INVADE SoDamn Insane and his merry band of thugs, muggers, and thieves. How much Aid do we send to Turkey anyway???????????????? Hey maybe the UN can relocate there...
Democracy supports capitolism. Capitolism needs expansion for growth. Little or no produced in the ME but raw materials. That means new markets, new customers, new money.
Fewer terrorists and more consumers.
Duty, honor, and because we actually believe he's right.
Some of Sistani's views from his website:
"It is Haram [forbidden] to listen to music special for diversion and play."
Question:"Are shaking of hands with girls allowed?"
Answer:"It is not permissible."
Question:"I am in a secret marriage with a Sunni girl and recently read on your site that it is not permissible to marry a Sunni girl without her father's permission. Is our marriage valid?"
Answer:"The aforesaid marriage would be invalid, if the wife was virgin. Based on precaution, even she was independent in her livelihood."
Question:"If two people know that they are going to marry each other but they are not engaged yet, if they hold hands and hug, will it be halal after they get married?"
Answer:"Any relationship between male and female prior to marriage contract is forbidden and impermissible."
Question:"Can a Shi'i girl marry a Sunni boy?"
Answer:"If there is a fear of being misled, it is not permissible."
It's time for another Cowboy's Picnic tips:
The Good Kind
Turkey breast
fresh baked Italian bread
romaine lettuce
tomato slices
slice of red onion
Swiss cheese
7 drops Italian dressing
little mustard and/or mayo
Kosher pickle on the side
potato salad, NYC style
Birch Beer soda
I care not to carry on about other people's blogs. The blogosphere is getting as bitchy as a cathouse.
This rather interesting statistic (if true)follows on from previous posts about the alleged stupidity of the pro-choice people:
"There have been more US abortions in each year of the Bush administration than there were in each year of the Clinton administration.
and
"Reich says the unusual statistic is a product of the failure of Bush’s faith-based approach to family planning in which sheer ignorance leads to pregnancy compared with the more rational approach under previous Presidents. Thus, he argued, if the religious right was really concerned about abortion they would support more progressive family planning policies.
Above anon was I
First Anon, Iraq may be in for a cultural revolution, no ?
Matt,
one small story about Bush and
the brothers,he joked with them
about getting his teeth done
from them....and i am sure
when they get back,we will hear
all about their trip......
Lydia said,they did look tired,
i am sure its been none stop..
and i have not been there today
yet,but go to spirit of america
and probably click on blog and
maybe there will be updates of
their trip.......there was a few
days back.....
Wad, were there more liberals aborted than normals as usual ?
Ali,
Sorry, at first I did wonder if you were real. But now I trust and believe you speak the truth. Stay on course, your path is so important to all Iraqi's and those of us here who can tell our friends who ask what is real in Iraq. I say go to the iraqi bloggers and find the truth yourself. I show them copies of your journals and they are so excited and say "I thought this was true..." but the new media here is so one-sided after awhile it can get you to believe it, simply because you don't hear anything else. So I talk to groups of women and veterans who want to know what it was like. I tell them I never met an Iraqi that wasn't happy Saddam was gone. I tell them there are those who want us to leave so they can get their power back and take over. I want to see Iraq free and peaceful. I would like to see the palaces turned into libraries, art centers and places for all the Iraqi people to enjoy. The palaces belong to you and should not be for just a few elite. I would like to see the Boathouse at the Water palace turned into dinner club with music and delicious food. To be able to sit out on the open marble patios with a cup of coffe or tea and watch the moon reflect on the water at sunset. It was beautiful. Today a year ago I was in Bagdad listening to the celebratory gunfire as Iraqi's danced in the streets and celebrated the capture of Saddam. Ma-asalama
Dianne,great post.......
i think all the palaces should
be made into hotels,and i bet
a few are even haunted.......
from the dickhead sons,taking
school girls,out of class and
bringing them back,to frickin
rape them......glad those 2
are DEAD........
Yeah, maybe. But in which direction?
I just hope I don't have to go a whole day without somebody bashing the French.
Japanese depressed by the reality of Paris
I wonder why they think this syndrome is unique to Japanese people. It seems like a survival response mechanism that normal people are inclined to have.
Ash, I forgot a reason. Dianne reminds me of tourism. Now that most of Europe is on our s-list, we need a place to watch a moonrise.
Andrea, maybe the party should be at the Water Palace Boathouse and spa.
I am sure the brothers Fadhil-Ali get some very funny questions about their country - here are some funny examples about questins about Australia .... enjoy
Tourists' Guide to Australia
You'll enjoy this, it’s classic.
>Subject: tourists guide to OZ
>
>The questions below about Australia, are from potential visitors. They
>were posted on an Australian Tourism Website and the answers are the
>actual responses by the website officials, who obviously have a sense
>of humour.
>Q: Does it ever get windy in Australia? I have never seen it rain on
>TV, so how do the plants grow? (UK).
>A: We import all plants fully grown and then just sit around watching
>them die.
>Q: Will I be able to see kangaroos in the street? (USA)
> A: Depends how much you've been drinking.
>Q: I want to walk from Perth to Sydney - can I follow the railroad
>tracks?(Sweden)
>A: Sure, it's only three thousand miles, take lots of water.
>Q: Is it safe to run around in the bushes in Australia? (Sweden)
>A: So it's true what they say about Swedes.
>Q: Are there any ATMs (cash machines) in Australia? Can you send me a
>list of them in Brisbane, Cairns, Townsville and Hervey? (UK)
>A: What did your last slave die of?
>Q: Can you give me some information about hippo racing in
>Australia?(USA)
>A: A-fri-ca is the big triangle shaped continent south of Europe.
>Aus-tra-lia is that big island in the middle of the Pacific which
>doesn't... oh forget it. Sure, the hippo racing is every Tuesday night
>in KingsCross. Come naked.
>Q: Which direction is North in Australia? (USA)
>A: Face south and then turn 180 degrees. Contact us when you get here
>and we'll send the rest of the directions.
>Q: Can I bring cutlery into Australia? (UK)
>A: Why? Just use your fingers like we do.
>Q: Can you send me the Vienna Boys' Choir schedule? (USA)
>A: Aus-tri-a is that quaint little country bordering Ger-man-y, which
>is...oh forget it. Sure, the Vienna Boys Choir plays every Tuesday
>night in Kings Cross, straight after the hippo races. Come naked.
>Q: Can I wear high heels in Australia? (UK)
>A: You are a British politician, right?
>Q: Are there supermarkets in Sydney and is milk available all year
>round?(Germany)
>A: No, we are a peaceful civilization of vegan hunter/gatherers. Milk
>is illegal.
>Q: Please send a list of all doctors in Australia who can dispense
>rattlesnake serum. (USA)
>A: Rattlesnakes live in A-meri-ca which is where YOU come from. All
>Australian snakes are perfectly harmless, can be safely handled and
>make good pets.
>Q: I have a question about a famous animal in Australia, but I forget
>its name. It's a kind of bear and lives in trees. (USA)
>A: It's called a Drop Bear. They are so called because they drop out of
>gum trees and eat the brains of anyone walking underneath them. You can
>scare them off by spraying yourself with human urine before you go out
>walking.
Thats funny Wad
Let's see, the Japanese, from a respectful, hard working culture fond of personal hygeine, having a hard time with France, a culture of character flaws which does not practice any of that. If I had to live or stay in France, I'd be depressed, too.
but Neon,i still want to bash the
frrrrrrrrrrrrench......
no more frrrrrrrrrrench kissing..
we will call it soul kissing......
wx,the big blogger party will be
over here next year....and when
things get cool over there,we
will have a 2nd one in one of
the palaces.......they just must
turn a few of them into a hotel...
what a great tourist attraction
besides their beauty of a country...
Ali, Thanks for keeeping the homefires aglow while your brothers are here. Your loyal readers are with you and Juan is a nut. Stay safe and keep up the good fight for a successful Iraq.
Meetings and dinner in Baghdad. After conference party in Fallujah. Black tie only.
Hey Waddy Good one. Tell the one guy to kiss the south end of a north-bound mule and then watch em figure it out.
Wad, I might have peed,
black tie???
oooohhhie....
like a man in a suit,once a year...
whats up with the Wad tonight?
did you get some lately??
You lay down and hold your compass above your face and find north that way.
Thanks anon -
I wonder why the French massacre of 60 unnarmed protestors in the Ivory Coast is not getting any more media attention than it is.
I really don't know....and it is hard to find any information on it. I saw the video....I know it happened.
cheeze wiz,thank god the furnance
people are coming tomorrow,cause
it just got really hot at my place
again......and hey,its only going
to cost $100 for a look over.....
If you lay down and see a white bear, your too close to the north pole for this trick to work.
Good discussion earlier, Turkey, the Kurds, others. The map of the ME could be re-written completely in the next ten years or so.
andy - You could have bought a thermostadt at your local hardware store for about $30.
wiz - I hope not. National pride is one of the keys to stability. You don't have that with fluid borders.
Ash...I don't know how to explain why we care about Iraq but I'll give it a try.
After WWI, the US wanted to rebuild Germany but France said no that they wanted to keep Germany weak..Well we ended up with WWII. After WWII, the US said that we were going to rebuild Gerrmany and Japan period and we helped make that happen. Initially, we did it to make us safer but afterward we became friends with old enemies.
The US sees the ME as dangerous and sort of lost economically and politically. Using history as the guide, we are eternal optimists and truly believe that if we can help Iraq get on its feet with a self representative government and economically, it could help the entire region as Japan helped her region after WWII. That would help us be safer.
As with Japan and Germany, one on one friendships develop and Americans now love Iraq.
But tribal loyalty could trump national pride. Throw religion into the mix. . . .
Look at Yugoslavia, another trumoed up country that didn't exist before WWI. It fell apart in a firestorm. Same could happen here.
wiz - Thats the point. That is why there are so many different loyalties in the ME. The maps of the region have changed much over the past century.
It takes years to build tradition and culture, and develope a sense of national pride. No more remapping.
Neon,it just could be,a major
look over on the unit...to see
if it still has got it......
to see if everything still works
from last Jan.
Hey, I'm with ya. I hope that the borders all remain. But it will be very difficult. The borders were drwan up after WWI based more on past emoires of the west than on true borders based on language, tribes, religion, geography, and the history of the area.
Thats [art of why its such a mess now. The only way to keep the countries intact was to have strong dictators like Saddam, Assad Hussein, the Shah. It will be difficult to democratize these countries without old ethnic feelings rizing to a boiling point.
Every unit needs a good once over every now and then to make sure it still has it.
wiz - But I also see something wonderful happening. The Kurds and the Shiites seem willing to work together to rebuild Iraq.
Why? Because they are Iraqi's first. Then they are Kurds, Shiites (and hopefully someday soon...Sunni.)
Some of the problems of the Middle East have stemmed from the fact that the maps have been arbitrarily drawn by Imperial powers. We, in our hubris, risk doing that ourselves.
Neon,i sure hope thats the case this
time,cause the poor thing and
other parts have been neglected.
wow, you folks talk fast around here. Sorry to repeat what was already said, by many.
Yes, I am optimistic that it seems to be working so far. But we must be aware of potential problems and try to head them off. We are all hopeful that democracy will spread through the ME but how will it spread? Will it be peaceful as in Romania's "Velvet Revolution" or will it be violent as in Africa? And if it becomes violent in one country how do we keep it spreading to another and then another? It could get bery ugly.
Ash, no problem. . . as long as we agree
Mister Ghost - those buggers trying to use Canadian airplanes to do their dirty work - they'll be in for a big surprise!
Remapping started this whole thing....Kuwait.
It is a sad day when the top US officials have to worry about arrest when they visit other First world countries, but, by their actions, they've brought it upon themselves.
stay tuned, for this won't be the last time we see something like this.
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/
articl...1427743,00.html
so glad i gave that lover up...
and a few beers helped tonight...to
get over it......
4 more years
bwahahahaha
Read your link Ash....let 'em try. It is extremely undiplomatic to go around arresting diplomats. While he is serving under the flag of a sovereign nation, and is not guilty of espionage or subversion....he normally has what is known as diplomatic immunity.
The most they can do is declare him "persona non grata" and if it was a high ranking official, such as a SecDef, they had better have a really good reason, and forfeit any right to call themselves allies.
Why does the Left hate freedom so much? Opposing the war is one thing, but do they have to cast apsersions on those Iraqis who are ttrying to build a society of freedom and democracy?
For shame.
goodnight all,going to try and
try and cool down.....god help me..
Ash,
British intelligence made exactly the claim Bush said they did. He was 100% accurate.
Anyway, shouldn't you be out on a ledge somewhere?
Goodnight andy
TallDave - The left in America and Europe do not hate freedom. They hate GWB, and they are willing to forfeit the freedoms of others to defeat him.
Ash, it will be a great day when no more American troops ever have to be killed defending countries that piss on and vandalize their graves. (i.e. Normandy, France) I try not to think like an isolationist, but it gets harder to resist all the time. Europe seems to want us to go home. I think we should give them what they want, and let them pay for their own defense.
BTW, did you know that Putin signed an order mandating that regional governors are now to be appointed by the central government, and not elected by the region's voters? Sorry, I don't have a link, it was just a tidbit I saw on the local news. Looks like totalitarianism was not dead, it was just taking a little nap.
I guess you can take the man out of the KGB, but you can't take the KGB out of the man.
While talking to someone today who knew nothing about blogs, I used the examples of Iraq the Model and Martini Republic to illustrate the highs and lows the blogosphere has to offer.
At one end of the spectrum, courageous freedom-loving men spreading a message of hope and democracy in a war-torn zone.
At the other, pinheads who lie about other people.
Brian writes, "And you might like to read more deeply on sistani.org. Take a look at his rules for temporary marriage, for example. He has a huge backlog of Sharia laws he wants imposed."
Where do you get that he has a "huge backlog of Sharia laws he wants imposed"?
Where do you get that he wants ANY laws "imposed?"
As I understand it--the English is somewhat garbled--Sistani is being asked questions of morals. He is being asked if it's all right for a "boy and girl" to have sex outside of permanent marriage. He's saying that *morally* that's OK, as long as the girl has the permission from her father or grandfather to get this "temporary marriage."
That's how I read it, anyway. Again, the English translation is somewhat garbled, so I may be misunderstanding the question or the answer.
Anonymous quotes Sistani's views from his website:
"It is Haram [forbidden] to listen to music special for diversion and play."
Question:"Are shaking of hands with girls allowed?"
Answer:"It is not permissible."
Question:"I am in a secret marriage with a Sunni girl and recently read on your site that it is not permissible to marry a Sunni girl without her father's permission. Is our marriage valid?"
Answer:"The aforesaid marriage would be invalid, if the wife was virgin. Based on precaution, even she was independent in her livelihood."
Question:"If two people know that they are going to marry each other but they are not engaged yet, if they hold hands and hug, will it be halal after they get married?"
Answer:"Any relationship between male and female prior to marriage contract is forbidden and impermissible."
Question:"Can a Shi'i girl marry a Sunni boy?"
Answer:"If there is a fear of being misled, it is not permissible."
Again, he is answering *moral* questions. He is NOT saying that all those things should be written into law...though I'm doubt he'd object if they were written into law.
Everyone should understand...Ali Sistani is like Pope John Paul. They are both very conservative men. But the key here is that Sistani is being asked *moral* questions. He is not being asked what laws he thinks should be written.
Regarding the LAW, he is asked "3- What is the role of religion in the future Iraqi constitution and what is its role in the educational and legislative systems?"
He responds, "3- Members of the constitution council who are elected by the Iraqi people will decide all this."
If anyone here is expecting Ali Sistani to have opinions like Bill Clinton or even G.W. Bush, you're dreaming. He is unquestionably a very conservative man (from the standpoint of Western people). But I don't see him as being at all like the clerics running Iran. Those men do NOT accept the idea that a "constitutional council who are elected by the Iranian people will decide all this." At least, the Iranian clerics don't accept it unless the elections are rigged to give the "ri
Oops...just missed!
It least, the Iranian clerics don't accept it unless the elections are rigged to give the "right" results.
Patterico - I dunno, I have been reading Martini Republic a lot the last couple of days. It seems a lot like this place...since we are all posting there.
Mark Bahner,
Thank you for your response. I agree that our bill of rights could be improved/upheld. Perhaps Iraq will do a better job than we have in that.
I disagree with you primarily in that I believe that these minority protection issues are being actively debated in country even now before the parlimentarian reps are elected. Remember: Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense.
Your ideas are interesting ones, and would probably be very reassuring to many if carefully implemented. There are similar breakaway provisions in some local governments such as cities and even counties in the United States. To provide for it at a national level would be more difficult. (Taiwan comes to mind.)
The "must pay part of the debt" provision might also/instead be "must pay for part value of natural resource" considering it is Iraq. In either case it would be a type of national "alimony" obligation after the breakup.
Here is a wonderful story about the inauguration of Hamid Karzai. It contains several quotes I have read nowhere else. The Iraqis are going to have to play "catch up" to get ahead of the Afghannis. The Afghannis impress me so much--they really seem to get what its all about.
Neonknight,
I'm talking about the posters. Ali as opposed to MR's Joseph. Joseph told a lie about me -- I gave the link above. He is a lying pinhead.
Ali is a great man.
Mark,
I very much doubt the election will be rigged in the way you mean. It is being overseen by the UN... So it will be very closely monitored by many. It will likely also be opposed and as strongly secured as possible.
At a cost of almost US$100 per vote for holding and securing the election spent by the UN, it is not likely to be "rigged".
In White House Meeting With President Bush, Omar and Mohammed Secure Firm US Commitment to Iraq
"About half way into the meeting the President said to Omar and Mohammed, "I want you two to know that we are going to stay until the job is done. It doesn't matter what the rest of the world says. It doesn't matter what the UN says. We are going to stay until the job is done. It's important that your country knows that." It was a powerful and moving moment.
After talking about Spirit of America, Pres. Bush turned to Omar and Mohammed and said, "You see gentlemen, that is the beauty of America. I never met this man before but he's out there helping to win this War on Terror just as much as Wolfie here. That's what I believe in." He went on to talk about the importance of private-sector, grass roots initiatives like SoA."
http://www.lt-smash.us/
Juan Cole would not give 2 cents for the truth. He cheered Hussein and his multiplying victims from the beginning. Juan Cole is an America hater and he doesn't care about you or your people. Juan Cole would rather die than see Iraqis breathe free air. I know you are shocked and stunned and probably feel (as I do betrayed). But you, and your dear brothers, must grow a long hard spine to stand up for what is right in this crazy juan cole infested world..
OJ, that's great news! Thanks for posting that.
OJ, thanks for that Standard piece about Afghanistan too. We don't hear so much about Afghanistan these days. Now I know why.
Get ready for Israel, they're going to get very involved, very soon. You will find more problems in Iraq because of this. Of course that will not be the popular thought amongst the MEMRI. But mark my words. Mullah/Zionist/Arab war is coming.
Mark,
Sistani managed 30 years under Saddam. He understands separation of "Church and State". He assigned a group to put together a "cross-section" of people to be on his "approved" slate...Sunni's, Kurds, Pro Us, Anti Us etc.
My reading is that he is "quiding his flock"...as a true man of god should.
twintowertwins,
[Get ready for Israel]
How much are you being paid to propagate that filth you racist hate mongering son of an unwed dog. Yet another clown who believes that the most powerful nation on earth is dictated to by a itsy bitsy country.
I bet your really happy that Gore lost because he had a "Jew B*stard" on his ticket. But not very happy that Bush won.
Guess what. I personally know Joe Lieberman. He is a true man of peace you hate mongering pig.
Imagine...a Jew that believes that all of Abrahams children should live in peace.
So which do you prefer...a war monger...or a Jew who is a man of peace.
The wording on Big Sis' site has been changed; at one time the "regulations" were labelled as "proposed Iraqi legislation". I am sure that's still his ambition. He's too old to give up his ambitions. As far as surviving SH, he's not stupid. Pushing for religious authority would have earned him a permanent room in a worm hotel.
Good news:
THE MSM IS FAILING, BIGTIME
Bravo! Your destiny is in your hands. Fight for your future!
a good read.
http://www.commentarymagazine.co...m/
podhoretz.htm
Dear Brothers
Today is your first day to fight an historic election in Iraq.
Think big- avoid arguments.
Nine times out of ten,, an arguement ends with each of the parties being more convinced that he/she is aboslutley right.
Argument is the worst sort of conversation.( Jonathan Swift(1667-1745).
Good luck
Yeah, the campaign is on!
YEEEHAAWWW!
Hey Guys,
Just wanted you to know...you made the local paper (The Palm Beach Post) today with an article from Kathleen Parker...regarding your blog and your visit with Bush...and the optimism you have about a free and democratic Iraq! I have been telling all my friends about your blog and how the "real" story doesn't get told. Maybe now, these people will see for themselves the other side of the story.
Good luck!
Get campaigning, guys; we're rooting for you!
It appears Juan Cole has fired back.
His 15 Dec 04 entry re-visits the issue, AND goes back over that "history" of celebrations of the 1920s rebellion in Fallujah.
He doesn't mention his many critics, except in passing (as "dittoheads" who can't read polls), but mentions his disagreements with "Iraq the Model", and, no, he still won't link to here.
Post Script:
If ya'll will take note, Professor Cole, in his most recent entry regarding ITM, was (is?) trying to redirect the argument from his prior argument on "blog trolling" and "astroturfing" (to use the phrases he stressed), to something he thinks he can win, i.e. polling results.
Lee C.,
Apparently there has been no polling done in Iraq since last April.
"he still won't link to here."
Yeah, so unfair, since ITM links to him, doesn't it? Hmm, must be in there someplace, nope, gee in fact ITM only links to right-wing shit. How typical.
"Apparently there has been no polling done in Iraq since last April.
Bridget"
There has actually, by something called the International Republican Institute or something like that. Any commentary on it cherry-picked the results, and they were were very careful not to ask what Iraqis thought of the occupiers this time.
Soldier's Dad wrote:
"Sistani managed 30 years under Saddam. He understands separation of "Church and State". He assigned a group to put together a "cross-section" of people to be on his "approved" slate...Sunni's, Kurds, Pro Us, Anti Us etc."
From a NYTimes article on today's front page
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/1...l?oref=login&
hp
"BAGHDAD, Iraq, Dec. 14 - On a list of 228 candidates submitted by a powerful Shiite-led political alliance to Iraq's electoral commission last week, Abdul Aziz al-Hakim's name was entered as No. 1. It was the clearest indication yet that in the Jan. 30 election, with Iraq's Shiite majority likely to heavily outnumber Sunni voters, Mr. Hakim may emerge as the country's most powerful political figure.
Mr. Hakim, in his early 50's, is a pre-eminent example of a class of Iraqi Shiite leaders with close ties to Iran's ruling ayatollahs. He spent nearly a quarter of a century in exile in Iran. His political party, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, was founded in Tehran, and its military wing fought alongside Iranian troops during the Iran-Iraq war. American intelligence officials say he had close ties with Iran's secret services."
So, tell me again how this will serve America's interest? Will the Bush administration sit back and allow an alliance to occur with Iran? or will they do something like France did in Algeria and abort the election when they realize that the incoming government won't be to their liking? Will they attempt to 'fix' the election and fight a Shiite and Sunni' insurgency?
Again, all bad option for the US. Another example of Bush's poor leadership.
This is also argued here
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/1...l?oref=login&
hp
which concludes with:
"But the ordeal in Iraq has shown that a war of liberation is a crude instrument for setting a country free. Democracy is not the absence of tyranny. It has to grow from within over time, and it requires far more care and feeding than Washington seems able to give."
Jeff wrote:
"The Afghannis impress me so much--they really seem to get what its all about."
One thing that people don't consider is that Iraq helped to make Afghanistan possible. The Islamic extremists in the world only have so many resources available. Iraq is on the Arabian peninsula - the heart of Islam. As such, the Islamists don't feel that they can allow democracy a foothold there. They are well aware of the apeal of democracy and they know that what they are selling looses it's value in a free and educated society. The pool of international Mujahedeen have come to fight for Iraq and they have mostly abandoned Afghanistan. The Taliban in Afghanistan don't have the outside resources nor the internal following to do anything. The pool of attention from the anti American international media is also on Iraq. All of this enabled Afghanistan to make a reasonably quite transition to democracy.
Excuse me the second link above is supposed to be:
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/
co...0ta_talk_packer
You folks do know that the standard joke about Karzai is the he is 'Mayor of Kabul'? His power does not extend much beyound the captial. Since the Taliban has been ousted the Poppy Fields have returned. I am no fan of the Taliban, to put it mildly, but to think that Afghanistan is now a pro-western oasis worth being held forth as succesful democracy installed at the point of a gun, is to overstate the case, a lot.
"Apparently there has been no polling done in Iraq since last April."
I'm not sure if that's true, or if Professor Cole just preferred the ones came out about the time of the Abu Graib scandal hitting the Iraqi consciousness.
Ha! The poppy fields have "returned?"
You stupid git (there is no other word for this arrogant ignorance). The Taliban was freaking funded by the poppy fields.
They haven't "returned" overnight, and they aren't "going away" overnight either. But to pin this on the new administration...boy you are nothing more than a fool.
Read a book. The only "standard joke" is you.
Not true Ash. Karzai already took out two warlords. He gets stronger all the time.
Neonknight wrote:
"Read your link Ash....let 'em try. It is extremely undiplomatic to go around arresting diplomats. While he is serving under the flag of a sovereign nation, and is not guilty of espionage or subversion....he normally has what is known as diplomatic immunity.
The most they can do is declare him "persona non grata" and if it was a high ranking official, such as a SecDef, they had better have a really good reason, and forfeit any right to call themselves allies."
The link he is referring to is http://www.dw-world.de/dw/
articl...1427743,00.html
First off Neonknight, I don't believe that Rumsfeld is considered a Diplomat and thus subject to Diplomatic Immunity, but I very well could be wrong here. In any case, this notion of diplomatic immunity certainly wasn't extended to Pinochet in Britain, or by the US for Noriega, nor Milosovec....well Milosovec is in the Hague and that is a different story.
This notion of extending domestic law internationally is quite popular in the US, the Noriega example being the most prominent but there are also cases of the US prosecuting folks in Canada for doing business with Cuba.
Similarily, this invasion of Iraq threatens International law. Now the the US has set a precedent for 'pre-emptive' invasion based on a perceived threat any nation could pull this excuse out. Say, for example, Russia were to invade and occupy Ukraine, and Putin says "we are pre-empting a threat"?
The Bush administration has done serious harm to the notion of 'Rule of Law' at the international level. The ramifications of this could be very deleterious for many years to come.
Ash, your analysis of the Iraqi elections is equally flawed. Iraqis on the whole are not interested in close alliance with Iran's repressive theocrats, and will not allow it.
Smack!
1... 2... 3... 4... 5... 6...
(Stay down, Juan)
7... 8... 9... 10...
Nope, he isnt getting up.
Khalid vs. Jeffrey!
Do the Jarrars support the insurgency in Iraq?
Would the Jarrars rather live 15 more years under Saddam and watch more mass graves dug than have someone from outside topple their "national leader"?
Are the Americans only interested in Iraqi Oil?
Get yer tickets!
Khalid vs. Jeffrey
ONLY AT:
Iraqi Bloggers Central.
Check out the link to ROUND ONE.
*
"Yeah, so unfair, since ITM links to him, doesn't it? Hmm, must be in there someplace, nope, gee in fact ITM only links to right-wing shit. How typical."
Look again ken; main page; when they mentioned his blog and comments, they linked to them.
Professor Cole apparently does not wish to have people checking on whether what he says is correct, but my brothers here don't have a problem with that.
How many times does the Socialist Left have to get smacked upside the head before they learn?
Stehpinkeln
Maybe once if were actually a physical blow to the head. The left lives on emotions and feelings. A real smack upside the head would give them real feelings but I am not sure that they could deal with real pain.
>>>The Bush administration has done serious harm to the notion of 'Rule of Law' at the international level.
maybe if i wish real hard,IT,
will go away......
your doctor called and said your
meds are in....
>>>The Bush administration has done serious harm to the notion of 'Rule of Law' at the international level.
There's no such thing. We don't elect international legislators. The idea of a collection of dictatorships voting to create laws is laughably ironic.
>>>Say, for example, Russia were to invade and occupy Ukraine, and Putin says "we are pre-empting a threat"?
Gee, I could be wrong, but I don't think Ukraine invaded anyone or used WMD against any other country or its own people (except maybe Yuschenko).
Dan, while I'm sure Poppy production continued under the Taliban (they were not all powerful) just googling "Taliban Poppy" you get a lot. The general gist of it is that opium industry declined under the Taliban and it is on the rise now.
From the Christian Scinece Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/11.../p1s3-
wosc.html
"A few weeks ago, Katib (who uses only one name) had been planning to plant wheat. But now that the Taliban have gone, and their drugs ban with them, he has changed his mind. He is going back to opium poppies, which will earn him 15 times more money."
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v...1/n904/
a07.html
"he first American narcotics experts to go to Afghanistan under Taliban rule have concluded that the movement's ban on opium-poppy cultivation appears to have wiped out the world's largest crop in less than a year, officials said today.
The American findings confirm earlier reports from the United Nations drug control program that Afghanistan, which supplied about three-quarters of the world's opium and most of the heroin reaching Europe, had ended poppy planting in one season. "
Dave, there are a lot of War Lords in Afghanistan, and yes, Karzai's power is growing. Let us hope it continues.
Tilo, I made the same point a couple of weeks ago. Iraq has drawn all the crazies out of Afghanistan.
Ash, I don't know of anyone that has said that Afghanistn is a "pro-western oasis worth being put forth as sucessful democracy" I think that most people would say that it is much more peaceful than any of the anti-war/anti-Bush crowd would ever have dreamed possible. And the signifigance is that this peaceful period will allow democracy to gain strenght and grow. As it grows, capitalism will expand rapidly(read Chrenkoff ) Then the poppy fields will be replaced. Democracy, unlike dictatorship, takes time, faith, work, and patience.
wadard, thanks for the tourist questions...i laughed so hard, got tears in my eyes. (still in pajamas)
TallDave, there is International Law, and much of it is based on agreements signed by the various governments. The US is signatory to numberous treaties. The WTO, the UN, and the Geneva Conventions , are but three things the US has signed on to, and form the basis for International Law. It is in the US's interest to further the Rule of Law internationally.
Casual Observation: Everytime Ash loses an argument, he moves on to the next without aknowledgement of other people's (very) well thought-out points. Examples: JFK more left than current dem leaders, Poppy fields, etc. I could go, but I think most everyone but Ash will agree. I also believe that Ash is probably a reasonably intelligent person in his early teens who uses his parents' predisposed beliefs to form his. But then again... nevermind
Ali, this is one of the coolest sites on the net. I'm sure Iraq will become a greater nation with people like you and your brothers at the helm.
I'd love you see you brothers debate Juan Cole in person. Ali, you'd eat him alive.
Bridget
I'm not so sure that is true. Debating is a skill and the outcome will depend a lot on who is more experienced at debating.
My brother can come up with a funny response in an instant. I can't. Yet we have the same IQ and background. In a formal debate, my brother would win unless the questions were weighted toward technical topics.
Yikes! Lee C. and I seem to agree about the outcome of a debate.
It's time to leave.
Anon2,
no,its the other way around"IT"
is in their 40's and still lives
at home...with the parents who
are still healthy..
Ash has consistently shown a desire to debate a variety of people at once (as the single dissenting voice), makes coherent arguments, has rarely been rude, and generally provides evidence to back up his claims. He's hardly a Liberation Now or a Bushlied.
So, even though I have disagreed with him on various issues, I would not make odd guesses as to his age or where his beliefs came from. Frankly, it's nice to have debates going-- it keeps things lively; that's what democracy is about.
Anon2 let me repeat this for your reading pleasure:
Dan, while I'm sure Poppy production continued under the Taliban (they were not all powerful) just googling "Taliban Poppy" you get a lot. The general gist of it is that opium industry declined under the Taliban and it is on the rise now.
From the Christian Scinece Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/11.../p1s3-
wosc.html
"A few weeks ago, Katib (who uses only one name) had been planning to plant wheat. But now that the Taliban have gone, and their drugs ban with them, he has changed his mind. He is going back to opium poppies, which will earn him 15 times more money."
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v...1/n904/
a07.html
"he first American narcotics experts to go to Afghanistan under Taliban rule have concluded that the movement's ban on opium-poppy cultivation appears to have wiped out the world's largest crop in less than a year, officials said today.
The American findings confirm earlier reports from the United Nations drug control program that Afghanistan, which supplied about three-quarters of the world's opium and most of the heroin reaching Europe, had ended poppy planting in one season. "
Dave, there are a lot of War Lords in Afghanistan, and yes, Karzai's power is growing. Let us hope it continues.
JFK, hmmm, okay, I'll concede that one, he was a Conservative Republican, are ya happy now?
Thanks Adam, debate does need two or more sides.
Gotta concur with Adam. Ash has kept it civil while suffering the arrows of many slings. The need to instantly insult anyone that disagrees is a sad fact on most blogs. Perhaps it is an outgrowth of what passes for debate on cable shows, right-wing radio, and left-wing speeches. It is very harmful a free and open discussion of issues and is getting worse.
So Mr. Cole insists on telling Iraqis about Iraq, sitting in Michigan as he does. It is weird.
Richard,
How about if the debate is in Arabic?
part of the Iraqi Army being asked to come back to work Seems they are looking for ways to increase security for the campaign and elections.
Because of a very (short-term) ban on opium production in 2000, instituted by the Taliban and because of the 2001 war to remove that regime, opium production declined by 94% in 2001.
In successive years, opium production rose again. To 2002, it rose slightly past to its pre-war level, and to 2003, it rose another 6%.
During 2004, the production of opium has risen another 17 percent.
However-- if we look back a little further-- the Taliban's short ban notwithstanding, opium production reached spectacular levels under that regime, and was higher in 1999 than in any year since. It was estimated then to be responsible for 75% of the world's heroin supply. Opium has been in the region since the time of Alexander the Great, and will continue to be so. To blame the U.S.-led liberation of Afghanistan for Europe's heroin problem ignores this reality.
Lee C., Ya think a man whose powerful analytical abilities lead him to conclude that ITM is funded by nefarious clandestine groups because their internet service provider is in Abiline would actually stoop so low as to select 7 month old polling data in order to prove a point?
Bridget: "Ya think a man whose powerful analytical abilities lead him to conclude that ITM is funded by nefarious clandestine groups because their internet service provider is in Abiline"
Cole: "I drew attention to Martini Republic's questions about the independence of IraqTheModel without actually expressing any opinion myself one way or another, except to say that they are out of the Iraqi mainstream."
Item in today's morning MSNBC news:
"...Speaking shortly after Shaalan
’s announcement, Allawi unveiled his candidacy for the elections, putting his name at the top of a 200-strong alliance dubbed the 'Iraqi List,' which also includes several ministers from his interim government...."
umm, excuse me, but Ali? you should vigorously protest this in the media, as it clearly violates the Interim Law, which states that no sitting member of the Interim Government can run for office. We have been arguing this point ever since Bremer handed over the running of the country in the end of June, and now it seems Allawi has forgotten or tossed aside the law to get in on the action.
Throw a flag on this play. It's illegal for him to run in this election! call your newspapers, call your radio stations, call the tv media and get out there, Ali. It's open season. It's time to make the public aware of your stand. Here's a great place to start. No one is above the Law. He knows the Interim Law. He's gotta back off.
ken,
Do you want to go by what he actually said, or by what he later said he said?
A quote from his post:
"It notes that their choice of internet service provider, in Abilene, Texas, is rather suspicious, and wonders whether they are getting some extra support from certain quarters."
Maybe he didn't actually inhale, but he was smoking it for all it's worth.
thewiz, I don't think the commenters here are that bad, but to go over and over these debates while thinking that Ash or other newcomers are just ghandi with a new handle adds to the frustration. I prefer to allow him or her to make their arguments, then dispute them or rather laugh.
It just seems that the Bush lied approach is passe. Let's move along to current events.
"I drew attention to Martini Republic's questions about the independence of IraqTheModel…"
Yes, that does seem to have been his original point, doesn't it?
Making sure that allegations he won't actually make himself nevertheless got repeated.
You know, the logic seems simple; Saddam was a bad bad guy, the US took him out, the population will support the US.
We seem to be locked into our 'western' view of the world and it is sometimes seems incomprehensible that the insurgency should continue to grow over these last two years.
To try to gain some perspective, I find it helpful to explore various views, read as much as I can, to try to understand.
I just came across this post from Khalid trying to explain his hatred of Sadaam yet his hatred of the US occupation. It is quite informative. He concludes with:
"do i want iraqis to be killd by saddam? the mass graves? the rapest sons? the corrupted goverment? all of that is true, and i sure dont want that, those are my people, and myself getting hurt, but i sure dont want my peopel to be killed by foreigners on our land, running patrols in our streets, imposing their ideas and standards, i prefer to be in hell itself, rather than hearing someone sitting somewhere10 000 miles away telling me what HE thinks about what WE should do and what we SHOULDNT in OUR country, and what is RIGHT and what is WRONG, and who is GOOD and hwho is BAD, and who is the real TERRORIST and who is the real victim, and killing more than Saddam killed in years and years, and putting their PUPPET, hear me? PPPUUUPPPPEEEETTT goverment in our country, i dont want that, and thats what all this is about, freedom, the freedom of will, and the freedom of life."
You can find the rest of it at
http://
iraqblogcount.blogspot.co...d.html#comments
Ash,
Chairman Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI) Sayyed Abdul Aziz Al-Hakim has delivered to the Iranian president Muhammad Khatami a file which accuses Iranian authorities of the martyrdom of his brother Ayatullah Sayyed Muhammad Baqer Al-Hakim
Abdul Aziz Al-Hakim also served in the L Paul Bremer puppet government, which makes him a "US Puppet".
Would one describe a 1960's era US Draft Dodger who hid in Canada "Pro Canadian" or "Anti get his head shot off in Vietnam"
Ash,
I bet the Germans and Japanese felt the same way.
Ash, Khalid sounds like a liberal. He takes no responsibility for Saddam and that pathetic existance Iraqis lived under, yet he bites the hand that gives him freedom. The ME is full of that sort of ingrate. That is yet another reason to love the Fadhil brothers. We don't expect the falsely proud Arabs to kneel at out feet in gratitude, but it would be nice if they lifted a finger to help themselves. People who complain about being helped are the lowest form of jerkoff.
Ash,
If the insurgents want legitimate power, they can run for office on Jan 30th. When they choose instead to ake up arms against those running for office and try to assassinate them, that speaks volumes about why they seek power and what they would do with it. The "puppet government" argument doesn't work when Iraqis are choosing their own leaders.
>>>TallDave, there is International Law, and much of it is based on agreements signed by the various governments.
Yes, and they all ignore them the minute they become inconvenient. It's mostly a farce.
>>>It is in the US's interest to further the Rule of Law internationally.
In some respects. But law exists to serve morality, not the other way around. When it's illegal to replace a brutal dictatorship with a democracy, the law is wrong.
"Khalid sounds like a liberal."
Everyone you don't like, or who says anything you don't like "sounds like a liberal" to you.
It's sorta like the Arab Muslim preoccupation with blaming every damn thing on the Jews (including blaming the Muslim Kurds on the Jews). This would actually be sort of funny if you didn't live over here and have the right to vote.
Lee, liberals I've met are always blaming everything on whomever is in control. They don't seem to activly do something to improve the situation. A logging co. clearcuts a few acres and the libs complain about the spotted owls. But, do they do anything to expand the owls territory ? Do they try ? Like the complaining Arab above. What is he doing to aquire freedom ? Bitching ?
Ash,
Khalid seems quite coherent. Who in their right mind would enjoy 180,000 foreign soldiers driving thru their neighborhoods.
Troops levels were supposed to decline to 115,000 in May(2004), unfortunately, violence spiked in April.
Somewhere I saw a poll of Iraqi's. 79% wanted American troops to leave.
When asked to prioritise the problems in Iraq.
#1 Security
#2 Electrity
#3 Clean Water
#4 Fuel
#5 Getting rid of foreign troops.
11 of the 18 Iraqi privinces have little or no US troop presence.
Ash, instead of including URLs in your notes, send us a link thus:
title
Thanks
Sorry, that didn't work
Brian, where are you ?
"A logging co. clearcuts a few acres and the libs complain about the spotted owls. But, do they do anything to expand the owls territory ?"
I gotta admit, in spite of the grim implications, and in spite of the touch of cringe I get when I realize that other people read that and think, "he's an American,"...
That actually was funny.
Find Khalid here.
wxjames, how do you make a link into a title?
Hey Lee, how's your battle with FOAD the 3 headed toad going ?
Ash; try this REPLACE THIS TEXT WITH WHAT YOU WANT THE LINK TO SAY
oops, try this; type out below
rep[lace this text with what you want to say
hope this one works
hmmnn, one more try ;
REPLACE THIS TEXT WITH WHAT YOU WANT THE LINK TO SAY
Ash, when I attempt to show you, it makes a link. Start with the less than sign, then a, space, 'href="',
then full url address, then ", greater than sign, title, less than sign, slash, a, greater than sign.
The title will appear in blue in the text. Give it a try.
Like this?
Last try;
type out below without the spaces between the < and the a
< a href="http://www.mylink.com">REPLACE THIS TEXT WITH WHAT YOU WANT THE LINK TO SAY
It didn't all come through last time, try this with out the space between the < and the a. And should end with SAY
< a href="http://www.mylink.com">REPLACE THIS TEXT WITH WHAT YOU WANT THE LINK TO SAY
< 'href='http://www.google.ca/>/
weird but after SAY it ahould read SAY < / a > without the spaces.
< ahref="http://www.google.ca">GOOGLE
LOL I didn't realize this was the HTML primer page.
Ash, I'd suggest you try Googling "HTML Primer" if you're still having problems.
hahahah - TallDave that IS what I just did.
Gotta love google, sorry to muck up the comments
Ash, less than, a, space, href=, url in full quotes, greater than, title, less than, slash, a, greater than.
Only one imbedded space.
actually I googled making hyperlinks in blogs and came up with LINKED TEXT
Ash, go to http://www.yourish.com/archives/...-
dec4_2004.html
There, near the bottom, you will find directions on how to do it. It is the post from 11/30
OOppsss I give up
Ash seems to be out of the woods here wiz. It's you I'm worried about.
Just kidding.
LOL gotta love modern technology.
I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat myself when under stress.
;
Modern technology is making the world smaller. It has become very confusing, however, and older people have a hard time adapting and keeping up with developments. Recently, I got a new laptop and a DSL line. It was worse than getting a divorce with a custody fight. I'm still not right.
I feel violated.
I don't know who you are. I'd like to point out that you certainly didn't expose me to Dr. Cole but that h exposed me to you. And I'm underimpressed by your your reading and writing skills. The professor has presented compelling evidence that Iraqi popular opinion sees the US as occupiers but don't let that disturb your comfortable delusions. A survey of Iraqi bloggers can hardly be construed to be representative of Iraqi opinion. Don't you think? How many Iraqis have internet access? How many Iraqis have blogs. Come on. Your argument is farcical.
Ahmed Chalabi, your home page leads to comedy central. What are you some kind of joker ?
Hello [Dr?!] Chalabi,
You mean you don't know the 'Iraq Pro-Democracy Party' from squat?? If you have any wish to illuminate this dim portion of the blogoverse (oh, please do!)we (or maybe its just me) are dying to hear your opinions as you very well could be the next President of Iraq.
Ahmed: Nobody likes to occupied, even I know that. The question really is "Do you want the US and Coalition forces to leave imediately?" When asked this question, the Iraqis overwehlmingly say no. They know that would be a disaster that leads to chaos and civil war. They know that they need time to establish a government, train security forces, and put their society back together. The elections will be a huge step in this direction.
If you really want your country back, the answer is simple. Rise up against the violence so that you can have fair elections. Then set up your government, secure your country and we will GLADLY leave. The US has never built an empire. Look at the countries we have conguered or had complete control of-France, Germany, Japan, S Korea, the Philipines, Italy,Austria, the Netherlands, all of North Africa, and more. We turned over control of all these countries. Most are democracies and flourishing. We could have tried to hold these as our own territory but we knew better because of our own history of rebellion against an Empire.
All through history, US troops have always had two goals in mind;
1 To win the war
2 To come home
and now we have anonymous with an email address
Ash, that's Dr. Lechter.
"Hello, Clorice"
Ahmed Chalabi probably is Dr. Cole. I love how he takes a cheap shot at someone who probably speaks English as a second language, but his post has its own grammar and spelling errors.
As far who to believe, Dr. Cole or an actual Iraqi, I think common sense would rule the obvious answer.
Put yourself in their situation, look at what they went through with Saddam, think about all the things you take for granted, like being able to read a newspaper your dictator didn't have to approve, or having the police there to help you out in case of armed perpitrators instead of being the ones kidnapping you and exposing you to torture just because they don't like you...
Iraq was a humanitarian mess, and it's getting WAY better, the blind can see that. Just contemplate it for a little while and you'll see you have to be an idiot to think otherwise. But if you want actual polls, they've been done. Check out this site which shows polls like: 90% of Iraqis approved the removal of Saddam, and over 70% of them want a democracy. Yes, of course they think of Americans as occupiers, which they are, and everyone wants to be able to run their own country (which they didn't have the chance to do under Saddam!), but they also realize that these "occupiers" provide a lot of help, money and security. Would you have America and the allies abandon Iraq now, and let the terrorists move in and slaughter? That happened in Vietnam, look up the Killing Fields, when the Communist army moved in after the Americans fled and killed millions through Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos. For a historian, that should be familiar to mr. Cole. Obviously he either has his own agenda, or he just has a big head like many professors I know (I'm currently a college student) who never want to admit they're wrong, especially in politics or their area of expertise.
My apologies, I meant to link to: www.thetruthaboutiraq.com which has those polls. I gave the link not for you to agree with everything there but to show you the public opinion polls you seem to value. By the way, the 10% that didn't approve removing Saddam were probably the ones running the rape rooms and torture chambers. "Sadly, they lost their jobs. Those evil Americans, taking away prestigious government jobs!" I can just hear mr. Cole saying...
I'll try that link again. If it doesn't work this time, you can type it in for yourself:
here
You don't think Dr. Cole is a liberal, do you Mk ?
"Hey Lee, how's your battle with FOAD the 3 headed toad going ?"
He seems to be sticking with the "Legion" persona and generally attacking all persons not interested in killing lots of Muslims for now. Somehow he seems to have lost current interest in pursuing me to the exclusion of all others.
(This guy is not a "liberal", Bush Lied is the parody pretense persona; I don't care what ya'll want to believe.)
On the radio, I heard about a Marine who covered a gernade to save his squad. Does anyone have a link to that story ? Sounds like a medal of honor moment.
grenade !
silence, Cockroach
..I am peckish and I want to knosh...
Way to go Ali! Go brothers three!
OT: I have found a great website by Ollie North. www.freedomalliance.org.
I don't know if anyone knows about it.
I haven't seen it referenced here before. A lot of good things there and info on troops, etc.
Everyone have a wonderful evening!
Thanks Suds!
Ash, you can also e-mail Brian H. and I'm sure he'll help you with making links, as he has with me and many others!
It's tricky to show how the characters are typed, as they of course turn into links!
This is a good link for making long url's to short then past into link template and drop into spot in your comment.
how to make long url's short!
(I'll be so red faced if this doesn't work)
Thanks leap_frog. I googled it and got the info and created a text document on my desktop which I can pop open and use as a template for creating the links. It isn't quite as easy for me, the poster, to simply copy the link from the browser, but it will make it easier for the reader.
Juan's Polls
"54% of Iraqi's view America negatively."
Guardian Polls
over 50% of French,Germans and Spaniards view America negatively
Pre Election US polls
54% of Americans don't believe their governement is doing a good job.
So the Iraqi,American and European opinions are almost the same.
So the Iraqi's have the same level of distrust and dissatisfaction of government as Americans and European's do.
Sounds like a good thing to me!!!
Why would they file the question about internet participation under Cheating ? This is from the sistani.org. It gives one an idea of strick religious lifestyle, not quite like Bucks County.
wxjames,
My Arabic is quite poor, but I thing "Majalis" is "Lectures".
The first question was about exams, the second about lectures over the internet.
I'm underimpressed by your your reading and writing skills.
Well, I guess that makes two of us.
You would think that people who want to criticize us on our writing skills would take a little more care with their skills.
However, that is neither here nor there.
The point of the matter is polls are not always correct. What people say, and what they actually think may be two different things.
Unless perhaps, the exit polls were correct and John Kerry did win the election?
Also, does it matter to anyone here if the brother's beliefs are mainstream or held by only a minority of the population?
I doubt Thomas Jefferson was representative of most Americans, yet he had the courage to pursue his ideals and the determination to see them through.
So once again I reiterate, the glory belongs to the patriot who makes the critic irrelevant by doing what they say can't be done.
Just got another ad fom Zaki at the Coral beach Restaraunt in lovely, downtown Baghdad!! Glad to see that he is doing well.. . . and if the beauty in the pic is typical of his clientle, I may have to make the trip!
Juan Cole states: "I drew attention to Martini Republic's questions about the independence of IraqTheModel without actually expressing any opinion myself one way or another, except to say that they are out of the Iraqi mainstream. The dittoheads who read them and can look at the above polling figures and come to a different conclusion are just innumerate (if only they were also so illiterate as to be unable to figure out my email address)."
"One of them complained that this poll was done last April. Does anybody really think US favorability numbers are up since then?"
Cole uses IRI.COM to substantiate his assumptions, but IRI states the opposite:
"Although the Institute has compiled an extensive body of focus group findings (including data gathered from highly restive areas such as Baghdad's Sadr City), the completion of a groundbreaking poll conducted in June has proven to be our crowning achievement. The study, which was the first of its kind to include all 18 governorates as well as a substantial representation of rural participants, showed an Iraqi population markedly more optimistic than the one commonly portrayed in the Western press-a majority of participants felt that their nation was moving in the right direction and held out hope for a brighter future."
Brighter future. Thank you IRI. Its brighter in part because of the work of Omar, Ali and Mohammed. Thank you again to the brothers. More blogs please.
We will not falter
Bush honours three who failed
I couldn't not believe this! Wonder what the honours were for then? a) letting Osama go so the 'war on terror' is protracted b) completely messing up the security in Iraq so the ME conflict can go on for years and c) coming up with an excuse to invade Iraq - any excuse - doesn't have to be real.
You are a moron with poor judgement Bush and you surround yourself with YES MEN morons. That is all I have to say on the matter
Ahmed Chalabi probably is Dr. Cole. I love how he takes a cheap shot at someone who probably speaks English as a second language, but his post has its own grammar and spelling errors.
You silly blog reader. I'm not Dr. Cole, nor am I a comedian. But I do think it's amusing that wxjames didn't recognize my name. No, I take it back. It's sad. Ignorance is sad.
Popular support for the new American government in the 18th century:
John Adams said this of the American Revolution: "We were about one-third Tories, and one-third timid, and one-third true blue."
Historians have revised that figure; most now believe that:
"forty percent of Americans were patriots; twenty percent were Loyalists, who supported the British; and forty percent were neutral, preferring to be left alone during the hostilities. Almost 18,000 Loyalists actually joined the British army and fought against Americans."
An interesting thing to note is that many (perhaps a hundred thousand) Loyalists fled the country after the war to Canada, still a British possession at the time.
Of course, I don't see large numbers of Iraqis fleeing the country now or after a new government is elected.
Forgive the double negative above - one will do
So the Iraqi's have the same level of distrust and dissatisfaction of government as Americans and European's do.
Sounds like a good thing to me!!!
Soldier's Dad
not so good for your daughter though. Anyone using their brain would realise there is a qualitative difference in the 'dissatisfaction' levels
Distrust is one thing. It's only natural that people would distrust foreign troops.
If I were an Iraqi and was told that the American and coalition troops were in Iraq to help build a democracy after seeing Saddam's brutal regime in action for decades, I would be distrustful too.
But when Iraqis go to the polls at the end of January, that is when they will decide whether they want to face the terrorists with assistance from the United States, Great Britain and Australia.
By the way, the American and Australian voters voted for democracy's victory in Iraq last month.
Elections in Muslim world may fuel violence: Pentagon
Maybe Bush is not looking for peace - there is always that possibility?
mk/B> wrote:
Iraq was a humanitarian mess, and it's getting WAY better, the blind can see that.
The best study on Iraqi mortality rates paints a different picture than your blind optimism. It is probable that there were 100,000 deaths caused directly by the war and US bombing, in particular. Of course, there is a 1 in 40 chance that the casualties were under 8,000 but it is equally possible that 194,000 people died. If you don't believe me, read it for yourself:
http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?
story_id=3352814
Sorry about the bold type. A preview would be nice.
Hello Ahmed Chalabi,
Even if you are not the former darling of Bush & Co., even if you are not an Iraqi, I would like to hear your opinion on the 'popularity' of the US on the Iraqi street and if possible the future role of the US in Iraq. The regulars at ITM are mainly boring people who like pleasuring themselves with flattery and pretty pictures.
I don't see what the uproar is. IraqTheModel reprsents one perspective from Iraq, which is probably out of the majority, based on data that Juan Cole references.
He has evidence to suggest IraqTheModel is out of the norm among Iraqis, which we should all assume anyway because most Iraqi's don't have necessary resources to regularly blog.
Juan Cole presents evidence, IraqTheModel presents opinions (though appealling opinions for many of us). These two bloggers don't need to conflict.
Wadard,
Did you ever hear of the American Civil War (1861-1865)?
Did you ever hear about bleeding Kansas, the guerilla warfare in Kansas between pro-slavery and anti-slavery forces fighting over whether Kansas would be a free state or a slave state in the 1850s?
Elections and violence can converge when there are important issues at stake, such as the relative moral position of democracy among competing social/political systems.
Elections might cause violence. But look at what the lack of elections in Iraq did to Iraqis for decades.
Way to go Ali! Go brothers three!
OT: I have found a great website by Ollie North.
Why are you celebrating a man who collaborated with Nicaraguan drug traffickers and sold stinger missiles to Iran? The man is a convicted felon and a traitor to the USA.
You should be ashamed.
Does Juan Cole support democracy in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Pakistan?
Or does Juan Cole support dictatorships?
In other words, does Juan Cole's ideology cause him to reflexively support brutal dictatorships in order to maintain his opposition to freedom, captialism and democracy?
Ahmed Chalabi,
Why is Ollie North a traitor for trying to bring down a Marxist dictatorship in the Western Hemisphere?
Today Nicaragua is a democracy, not a Marxist dictatorship. And the Lefty newspaper editors were crying when they heard the Marxists lost the election in 1989.
It's crazy how bitterly the Left opposes freedom and democracy for the people of the third world.
The regulars at ITM are mainly boring people who like pleasuring themselves with flattery and pretty pictures.
So why are you here?
Doesn't say much about you.
Hello Mark,
In fact, Ortega agreed to a cease-fire and to have an election, which when he lost it, he respected the result. He has more integrity than slime-ball-in-a-uniform Ollie North who lied to Congress and was pardoned by Papa Bush. Who has more respect for freedom and democracy? Bah!
Great Historical Perspective Adnan!!!
Mark wrote:
Today Nicaragua is a democracy, not a Marxist dictatorship
And it would have remained a dictatorship if the Sandinistas hadn't overthrown Anastasio Samoza. But I guess brutal military dictatorships are OK in your book as long as they are run by charismatic kleptomaniacs like myself, right?
I only reference that site because what he is doing NOW is in the best interests of our troops. I suppose you have never made a mistake in your life? He was doing what he was ordered to do.
Btw, Mark, I'm pretty sure that the left loves freedom and democracy. It's the stuff about supporting death squads, cocaine smugglers and trading stinger missiles for hostages that they don't like.
Your welcome leap_frog!
Brandy time, see you later!
Hello Ahmed Chalabi,
Here's a thought..what guarantee is there that Bush will respect a 'right wing' anti-US Shia victory in the upcoming Iraqi election in a country will armed soldiers at the polls?
Suds wrote:
I only reference that site because what he is doing NOW is in the best interests of our troops.
Not being in Iraq is the best interest of your troops.
I suppose you have never made a mistake in your life?
Yes, you are correct. I should never have embezzled all that money in Jordan. Also, I really shouldn't have given those encryption codes to Iran. But those are the kinds of things that I have to do to get by, you know?
Yes, elections can cause violence:
Bangladesh,
Kenya,
Turkey, and
Indonesia
...are just a few examples. But the alternatives to democratic elections are usually much worse. At any rate, the violence in Iraq is not really election-related, and any other path than the planned votes in January would be disastrous.
The regulars at ITM are mainly boring people who like pleasuring themselves with flattery and pretty pictures.
Where are the pretty pictures that I can pleasure myself with? I must see them!
Hello Mark,
In fact, Ortega agreed to a cease-fire and to have an election, which when he lost it, he respected the result.
So, Marxist dictatorships and Baathist dictatorships are cool to the Left. But the Left doesn't like Bush's democractic imperialism.
Funny.
Remember the Lefties who sang a song to Castro titled "Cuba is way too cool."
Anonymous,
That's a very interesting question. I don't think there are any guarantees. Didn't Donald Rumsfeld already explain that the elections are messy things? We can't expect a perfect election.
Good point anonymous! You might want to ask Rummy and Wolfowitz about those pictures of merry Iraqis flinging flowers before Us troops. All I see is them flinging ^%$#!
And John Kerry didn't exactly put much effort into talking Congress into insisting on Democracy in Vietnam!!!!
Is Vietnam as Democracy today? Or did Kerry and Jane Fonda succeed in getting a Marxist dictatorship in Vietnam?
Hello Ahmed,
I've always thought that Rummy was twice the scoundrel you ever were( by rumor, of course).
Ahmed Chalabi, it has recently come in the news that you have formed an alliance with several groups, mostly Shia but including Sunnis, Kurds and others.
Does this mean the I.N.C. is again on the upswing? What chances do you think your coalition has, given the support offered by Sistani? What are your relations with the Americans looking like these days?
Anonymous,
Yep. I here that most Iraqis are longing for the good old days when Saddam and his secret police fills the mass graves.
The Left loves genocidal dictators. Amazing.
Mark wrote:
But the Left doesn't like Bush's democractic imperialism
You are absolutely correct. The Left did everything in their power to disbelieve me and my old organization, the Iraqi National Congress. They kept saying something about "same old wine in a new bottle". They're a bunch of dumb drunks. I much prefer cocaine and opium, don't you?
Hello Mark,
You might want to know if America is a democracy today(what the hell is VietNam, Pago Pago,or Bora Bora). The problem with the right is they actually despise real democracy and freedom except when it comes to property rights. So Kerry is responsible for this whole mess, might 'a known! I wonder when Bush is going to give John O'Neil (Swift Vets for Truth)the Medal of Freedom.
You might want to ask Rummy and Wolfowitz about those pictures of merry Iraqis flinging flowers before Us troops. All I see is them flinging ^%$#!
Here are some:
flowers...
...more flowers...
...flowers here...
...some flowers...
...flower picture (scroll down)...
...A good flower pic...
Yes, I know some of them come from government websites. And that the U.S. did not get flowers "everywhere they went" even on the first days of the invasion. And I know that not a whole lot of flowers are being given to soldiers in Iraq these days.
But the evidence of what did happen is out there.
Nevermind. I'm being a dumbass. I totally forgot about how the Right supported genocidal dictators like Batista, Pol Pot, Amin, Somoza, the Duvaliers, Montt, Martinez, Pinochet, Marcos, Mobutu, Hussein, etc. I'm sorry.
Hear about that college professor who vandalized her own car and then blamed others claiming it was a hate crime?
Alright Chalabi, so your only defence to your silly view of defending Saddam is to show me that there's violence in Iraq now? Of course there's violence in Iraq now. Nobody said it was going to be easy, but that it's getting better is simply something that you can't deny. There was plenty of violence and death in Iraq before the war, too. There were more bodies found in the mass graves, killed from Saddam, than the numbers you showed me of fatalities since the Iraq war. And the thing is, most of these fatalities are from the violent insurgents that the Americans and their allies are fighting against! That's only the surface of the inhumanity. And yet you fail to address all the rest of the improvements. Maybe you just don't understand what it's like to live like that. Go live in North Korea for awhile, then see if you appreciate the freedoms that the Iraqis are now fighting for.
"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." - Edmond Burke, British statesman/Philosopher
"Those who have long enjoyed such privilages as we enjoy forget in time that men have died to win them." -FDR
America also helped rid the world of Noriega, Suharto, Marcos, Duvalier and Hussein once they could.
MK wrote:
There was plenty of violence and death in Iraq before the war, too. There were more bodies found in the mass graves, killed from Saddam, than the numbers you showed me of fatalities since the Iraq war.
It does not support my cause to say this but that is factually incorrect.
And the thing is, most of these fatalities are from the violent insurgents that the Americans and their allies are fighting against!
That is false. Those casualties are mostly from American bombs. If you want to read the actual study, here it is. I regret to say that it does not support your assertion.
Go live in North Korea for awhile, then see if you appreciate the freedoms that the Iraqis are now fighting for.
The freedom to build nuclear weapons? Sorry, I'm confused by your rhetoric. What does North Korea have to do with me?
And I just found this:
http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/
legacy...cyofterror.html
Over double your highest possible estimate (just under 200,000) for the deaths of Iraqis were found in the pre-war mass graves (400,000). And they're still finding more of these mass graves.
sorry didn't mean to post that multiple times.
What I meant by north korea, was that they are now experiencing starvation, brutal dictatorship, and the absence of freedom, similar to what the Iraqis experienced under Saddam. It's horrible. A free democratic state, which is well under way, is much improvement. At the start of the invasion don't you remember seeing the Iraqis running toward the American troops surredering, becuase they had no clothes and were starved to the point that their bones were plainly visible? I just don't see how you can think Iraq was better under Saddam. And, post-war, the violence is due to the terrorists and insurgents.
Mk,
I hope this doesn't embarrass you too much but the USAID page that you posted four times cites the statement by Tony Blair which was directly refuted in the Observer article that I posted.
from your article:
"We've already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves," said British Prime Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London
from my article:
Downing Street has admitted to The Observer that repeated claims by Tony Blair that '400,000 bodies had been found in Iraqi mass graves' is untrue, and only about 5,000 corpses have so far been uncovered.
The claims by Blair in November and December of last year, were given widespread credence, quoted by MPs and widely published, including in the introduction to a US government pamphlet on Iraq's mass graves.
In that publication - Iraq's Legacy of Terror: Mass Graves produced by USAID, the US government aid distribution agency, Blair is quoted from 20 November last year: 'We've already discovered, just so far, the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves.'
Oops.. "ponte" is my doppelganger.
Mk wrote:
And, post-war, the violence is due to the terrorists and insurgents.
Did you know that the Bush Administration had several opportunities to kill Zarqawi before the war but chose not to? Why? So that they could use him as another excuse to invade Iraq. I mean, I had a lot of good excuses but my credibility was always in question.
Funny, I don't recall killing Zarqawi as being one of the justifications for going to war.
Anonymous,
You misunderstand. Zarqawi's PRESENCE in Iraq was most definitely used as a justification for going to war. Nevermind that he was operating in Kurdish controlled territory.
Hello Mark,
You might want to know if America is a democracy today(what the hell is VietNam, Pago Pago,or Bora Bora). The problem with the right is they actually despise real democracy and freedom except when it comes to property rights. So Kerry is responsible for this whole mess, might 'a known! I wonder when Bush is going to give John O'Neil (Swift Vets for Truth)the Medal of Freedom.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 12.15.04 - 8:03 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
The problem with the left (and many other uninformed people) is that THEY HAVE NO CLUE that the US Government IS NOT A DEMOCRACY!!!! AND IT NEVER HAS BEEN. It is a Representative Republic by design. Ever hear of 'tyranny of the majority'?
Or mob rule?
Hello Ponte,
Now if Saddam was dictator of Iraq from 1979 to 2003-24 years he would be averaging 16000 deaths per year, yet in 18 months of occupation 100000 Iraqis have died that amounts to over 60000 Iraqi deaths per year. That means that the current situation is actually 3.6 times as bad as it was under the Glorious President! Where will that put the US, in the Iraqi history books?
Wow ...so many 'naughtly little nabobs of negativity' on the site 2nite... the price of publicity (sigh).
What's wrong folks? Get bored hanging out at the moveon.org or slate site?
Hello Glitch,
Sure, and a socialist republic (as in the USSR)is not a democracy either. You have something against freedom and democracy? Long live the glorious tyranny of the majority in the the US of A (as long as it is Republican)!
Glitch,
That seems more like a problem with the right if you ask me. Have you ever listened to George Bush? I mean, he's the one who wants to go spreading "democracy" around the world. Why is he trying so hard to spread something that even Americans don't have?
Joey, err, I mean Anonymous... put down the bong...step away from the bong.
I agree Ahmed. Unfortunately folks have fallen into the habit of saying "democracy" when they mean "freedom". A false synonym. But Ahmed, I really have no time to trade silliness with you tonight. Besides, aren't you still on the run from Jordan? I heard you owe some people some money there .
If we want to be generous to Saddam, the total could approach 2 million, including in the Iran-Iraq War, who were killed under his rule.
The anti-war site Iraq Body Count estimates 17,000 civilians killed under the U.S. occupation, although it acknowledges the 100,000 number produced by Lancet.
Killing is relative to what you are capable of. Just check out my neighbors to see real power.
Get a clue btw, this site is about a free Iraq, not a George Bush fan club... you're boring me with your GWB attacks.
Gotta crash later. perhaps Ahmed and Joey, err I mean Anonymous can trade snide remarks.
Glitch,
I think the problem is that some folks have fallen into the habit of saying "freedom" when they mean "corporate control". Orwell would be proud of you .
And I already admitted that I've made some mistakes.
Sorry...just gotta know. What the heck do you mean 'Tom C' ?
Oooowwww... Ahmed. Put down the Noam Chomsky book. Step away from the Chomsky book. You're overdosing.
(Actually heard the twilight zone theme song in the background when I read your post).
I work for a corporation. I own stock in more than a few... Now, if I could just find my black helicopter I'll be leaving for area 51 to have tea with the aliens.
(you make me laugh...better than comedy central)
Hello Annonymous,
Glad you reminded me, I forgot to figure in the 100000 Iraqis killed in the Kuwait war by the US lead MNF in 1991. True Saddam told them to invade but the bombs that killed them were 'made in the USA'.
damn, Ahmed Chalabi, if I didn't know your past through I'd vote for you
Your good dude, keep it up!
i wish,i wish,i wish,i wish,i wish,
i wish........
there are new comedians on here
that i want to know what
comedy clubs you will be playing
at other then the brothers blog....
i AM GETTING SICK OF IT!!!!!!
THEY WANT FREEDOM.......
TO BAD THE SONS(INSANE MAN'S) DON'T GIVE IT TO
YOU WHERE THE SUN DON'T SHINE,BUT
THEY ARE FRICKING DEAD NOW,NOT
RAPING LITTLE SCHOOL GIRLS,BUT
I BET YOU COMEDIANS WHO DO NOT
SUPPORT THESE BROTHERS ARE
RAPIST.......I TWICE HAVE BEEN THERE
NOW IN MY LIFE,GET OFF THIS BLOG
SORRY ALI,I ONLY WANT THE BEST FOR
YOU AND YOUR BROTHERS AND YOUR
COUNTRY!! CAN ONLY HOLD IT IN FOR
SOOOOOO LONG.......
Ahmed said - That seems more like a problem with the right if you ask me. Have you ever listened to George Bush? I mean, he's the one who wants to go spreading "democracy" around the world. Why is he trying so hard to spread something that even Americans don't have?
Ummmm, America just had the largest voter turnout in it's history. It sounds to me like democracy is alive and well in the good ole US of A.
Just because your guy lost, doesn't mean democracy didn't prevail.
....and yes, I listen to President Bush regularly....and I always feel rejuvinated afterwards. He is a real leader. Someday we will be teaching your grandchildren the "Bush Doctrine" in school.
ohhhh, noooo, Andrea's private little chat room has vistiors ohhhh myyyyy
andrea/flannels/minnesota,
Are you talking about me? Sure, I've done some bad things in my life but I've never raped anybody. I'm sure you can agree with me that, when you think about it, money is freedom. My crimes have nothing to do with "embezzlement". I just wanted the sweet, green taste of FREEDOM!
Neonknight, try to keep up, read what Ahmed says. in context. He was responding to the intellect who insists the US is not a democracy but a constitutional republic.
Neonknight wrote:
It sounds to me like democracy is alive and well in the good ole US of A.
Take it up Glitch! He was the one who said that the US Government is not, nor has ever been a democracy "by design". Who am I to disagree? I'm just poor little unemployed Jordanian mathematician.
There goes my doppelganger, ponte, again!
Ahmed, you should meet my pals Hamid, and the Iraqi Accountant. Drinking tea and smoking you y'all would indeed make for an interesting evening.
Being a democracy and a constitutional republic are not exclusive. Believe it or not, you can be both a constitutional republic and a democracy.
In fact, there are many forms of democracy. A constitutional republic is just one form.
I am wondering if the LA Times is ever going to run the interview with Omar and Mohammed.
I'm with ya NeonKnight, just tell Glitch about it. Maybe he should check out my kids Berenstain Bears book and he can read all about the 'pillars of democracy'. Democracy is a lot more then just voting. Heck, even the 'commies' in China vote.
I ask again: Ahmed Chalabi, it has recently come about in the news that you have formed an alliance with several groups, mostly Shia but including Sunnis, Kurds and others.
Does this mean the I.N.C. is again on the upswing? What chances do you think your coalition has, given the support offered by Sistani? What are your relations with the Americans looking like these days?
too many ANON'S,
you don't have to leave an email
on this blog by the way,
however,the brothers can find
you very fast from haloscan.....
its not my frickin private chat
room,however i have met some of
the BEST people in my life here,
and sometimes we just chat and
say howdy.......and give each
other the good,fun,shit.....
but the NEGATIVE PEOPLE WHO
DO NOT WANT THESE BROTHERS TO
BE HAPPY,can stick it.....
i listened to our president being
bashed for well over a year,and
thats being nice........i IS done
listening to it.........DONE....
Anonymous,
Anonymous Anonymous Anonymous Anonymous Anonymous Anonymous Anonymous Anonymous Anonymous Anonymous Anonymous Anonymous Anonymous Anonymous Anonymous.
Thats all I see when anyone posts as Anonymous. Yawwwnnnn, I can't make up a name. Heck, even for as whacked as 'I'm a chalupa' is, HE took the time to be a bit different.
Neonknight wrote:
It sounds to me like democracy is alive and well in the good ole US of A.
Honestly, I think the biggest reason that Bush won reelection is because there are so many Americans who fell for my colleagues' amazing stories about Iraq. I mean, the idea that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11? I thought for sure that smart people like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity would catch on to my misinformation. Imagine my surprise when I learned that 60% of Republicans believe that Saddam was "personally" involved in the planning of the attacks! I couldn't believe my good fortune. The propaganda apparatus in your country is truly phenomenal!!
Interesting conversation this evening. For me democracy means being able to demand and fight for your rights, as even in a 'free' society you still need to do this.
Patterico, I'm not familar with the LA Times, but I gather from blogs they are not likely to.
lol, Andrea, I posted the anon above. Scarry to think we are thinking alike. LOL, just razzing.
Yes, Ash, democracy is more than just about voting. The fine points can be debated but the people over at the Center for Civic Education give a good overview. The major elements in most developed democracies are:
POPULAR SOVEREIGNTY,
MAJORITY RULE AND MINORITY RIGHTS,
LIMITED GOVERNMENT,
INSTITUTIONAL AND PROCEDURAL LIMITATIONS ON POWERS,
SEPARATED AND SHARED POWERS,
CHECKS AND BALANCES,
DUE PROCESS OF LAW,
LEADERSHIP SUCCESSION THROUGH ELECTIONS.
There are more detailed elements dealing with the justice system and civil rights.
There are of course different "systems" under which a democracy can be organized, but the basic parts listed above are usually present. Not quite so simple as a semantic issue, as you know...
It's been said before, but I'll just have to say it again, "To say that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 is like saying hitler had nothing to do with pearl harbor."
For a democracy to work, it needs a constitution. Without a constitution, you have mob rule.
To implement a draft to the constitution should not just require a simple majority...but rather a super majority.
Say what you like Anrea
I'm not listening anymore.
I'm not listening anymore.
I'm not listening anymore.
yours truly,
anon
"To implement a draft to the constitution should not just require a simple majority...but rather a super majority."
Neonknight, that wouldn't bode well for the US project in Iraq now would it?
Honestly, I think the biggest reason that Bush won reelection is because there are so many Americans who fell for my colleagues' amazing stories about Iraq....
You are welcome to think that. The polls show it had more to do with leadership, moral values, and character.
Ash - Good point. And truthfully, America could not have proven a super majority durring the writing of it's constitution.
Did you know that there was a year (not going to google the date...right before the civil war.) when 11 states were not included in a national election?
Anonymous wrote:
Does this mean the I.N.C. is again on the upswing? What chances do you think your coalition has, given the support offered by Sistani? What are your relations with the Americans looking like these days?
You ask many sensitive questions, Anonymous. All I can say is that many people have predicted my demise in the past and I have proven them all wrong. I think my coalition stands an excellent chance. I have already outlasted my principle opponent in the US Administration, the soon-to-be-former Secretary of State. My act of double agency with Iran was a ruse to provide the appearance of separation from the occupying forces. Believe me, I will get back what was mine from the beginning.
heeeeeeyyyyeees'sss
baaaaaacccckkkk
oh,Jeffrey,how does the wife do it?
Zac,
razzing is good
Ahmed, and what of these rumours of an alliance with Mqty al Sadr?
Anonymous,
If you think I am kidding, just look at General Musharraf. If you only listened to Bush, you might think he was democratically elected.
can't wait to get that
haloscan address.......
My life has changed Andrea. I conversed with the dark side at Raed's and, and....it won.
Bush, I have learned, is, is, ...a ... dofus.
liar,liar,big micheal ass's pants
on fire
Watch your language, young lady.
What is she going on about?
andrea/flannels/minnesota,
Did you know that Christmas is an old pagan holiday? It's true. Richard Perle once explained it to me. Apparently, the New Testament identifies Christ's birth in the spring. Not only that, the Christmas tree is a ritual sacrifice to the pagan god, Mythra. In the early days of the Puritan colony in Massachusetts, Christmas was illegal! Not because it was Christian but because it was NOT Christian. Also, they didn't particularly care for the Catholic Irish influence. Richard Perle is just full of pearls of wisdom like that. NO PUN INTENDED!
Ahmed wrote - If you think I am kidding, just look at General Musharraf. If you only listened to Bush, you might think he was democratically elected.
I have never personally heard him say that. Can you give me a source...or a link? Or perhaps it just served your agenda to say that.
But yes, Bush has been very cordial to Musharraf. In fact President Bush is a wonderful diplomat. Yes, he has dissed both Zapatero and Chirac, but not before he was dissed by them. And even then, he never said an unkind word towards them...he just ignored them....and they hated that. LOL
President Bush is a great statesman.
make me Neon,just make me....
dare ya.........
ASH,ITS CALLED HALOSCAN....
THEY CAN FIND YOU ANYWHERE
YOU ARE COMPUTING FROM
Ash, Jeffrey is an imposter, stealing the real Jeffrey signature line! Not the first time.
Ahmed, I knew that, but I still love to put up a Christmas tree!
and even though I consider it 'stressmas' time, I still wish all who accept good wishes, a Merry Christmas and a special New Year especially to Iraq!
Must be my pagen roots!
Sure, ip addresses are readily available. That is how the net works, though many people through ISP's that dynamically update so tracking individuals requires the source ISP to reveal the customer lists and that can only be done through a court order. What relevance is this to what's going on here?
check out the AntiChomsky Reader. it exposes that liar for what he is.
"Orwell would be proud of you ."
I don't see how you're the one saying this when you'd rather see a brutal dictator running an oppressed country than freedom and democracy.
Chalabi, you're still dodging defending the claim that Iraq was better off with Saddam. I still fail to see how you can think having Saddam in power and people starving, tortured, put in mass graves, without freedom or a way to provide for their families or a say in their government or fate is a good thing.
Now you're talking about making the case for the war? Yes, the terrorist connection is part of the justification.
There's plenty of links. More and more.
I've seen documetation of him also tied to other terrorist groups, as well.
And even from the left, it's not a democrat vs republican issue, it's the supporters of the free world. Remember President Clinton? He had 8 years experience with Saddam. And here's another Democrat who works in the Pentagon and wrote a pretty good book (I read it last summer) with more support/justification for the Iraq War.
And I did read those articles you sent me, here's quotes from them:
"The researchers found that the majority of deaths were attributed to violence, which were primarily the result of military actions by Coalition forces... the researchers stressed that they found no evidence of improper conduct by the Coalition soldiers." Which, post-war, is in accordance with fighting terrorists and insurgents, that doesn't foil what I meant at all. Like I said, no one said it would be easy. But simply surrendering civilization to the terrorists/insurgents and letting them rule is much worse. Why on earth would you give into their demands of destrcution and encourage more? It's a good thing for Europe and America that you're not calling the shots, or we'd be colonies of Al Queda. Remember, terror and injustice is what we're up against. If you think bowing to it or ignoring it is a better tactic, you've failed to learn from history.
Second quote:
"A Downing Street spokesman said: 'While experts may disagree on the exact figures, human rights groups, governments and politicians across the world have no doubt that Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of his own people and their remains are buried in sites throughout Iraq.'" Either Blair was misinformed or he lied about the numbers, OK. That still doesn't make Saddam any more worthy of staying in power.
Seriously, live under Kim Jung Il in North Korea, see how you like living under someone like that and if you would still condemn the Iraqi pe
Ahmed,did i even mention
christmas yet? just want the
BEST for the brothers,and tired
of the bush bashing,cause if it
keeps up,i will find a new band
wagon,to keep it up for 4 more
years of bs to give the negative
people grap.......
opps, last Levale was me! 
ahhh, imposters. I've heard this is a CIA site, maybe Andrea is an agent.
Neonknight wrote:
But yes, Bush has been very cordial to Musharraf. In fact President Bush is a wonderful diplomat.
You are aware that Musharraf came to power in a military coup, right?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/12/ 20041204-2.html
One of the interesting lessons that the world can look at is Pakistan. You see, there are some in the world who do not believe that a Muslim society can self-govern. Some believe that the only solution for government in parts of the world is for there to be tyranny or despotism. I don't believe that. The Pakistan people have proven that those cynics are wrong. And where President Musharraf can help in world peace is to help remind people what is possible. And the solution in the Middle East is for there to be a world effort to help the Palestinians develop a state that is truly free--one that's got an independent judiciary, one that's got a civil society, one that's got the capacity to fight off the terrorists, one that allows for dissent, one in which people can vote. And President Musharraf can play a big role in helping achieve that objective.
hit send, whoops =P
...people to that sitaution. Maybe you're just selfish and you would.
""The researchers found that the majority of deaths were attributed to violence, which were primarily the result of military actions by Coalition forces... the researchers stressed that they found no evidence of improper conduct by the Coalition soldiers.""
Just to stoke things a bit for ya MK, if the whole war was illegal, immoral, unjustified are those 'deaths by military actions' still okay?
Yes Ahmed...I am aware. What is your point? Are you saying that America should not have cordial relations with any government that is not democratically elected??????????
thats right ASH,WE are ALL CIA....
dip,anybody who has got a
blog can find anybody and
ban them.........
andrea/flannels/minnesota,
You silly thing. My IP Address is DHCP. I can renew it in seconds.
Andrea, have you heard of anonymous proxy servers? Try banning someone using one of those.
Neonknight wrote:
Yes Ahmed...I am aware. What is your point? Are you saying that America should not have cordial relations with any government that is not democratically elected??????????
Cordial relations? That's good. He's quite clearly holding up Pakistan as a model government for the Middle East. If you call that "cordial relations", I'd like to see what good ones are.
It's amazing how faithfully the Left rallies to support their brutal dictators. They just can't get over the fact that Saddam was toppled by American military power (and assistance from Great Britain and Australia and other countries).
Somehow we are supposed to accept the Left's idea that toppling brutal dictators and attempting to set up democracies is morally wrong. But we're supposed to believe that John Kerry and Jane Fonda are heroes for cheering on the North Vietnamese Communist dictators.
The Left was wrong about Stalin's genocide in the Ukraine. The Left was wrong about Fidel Castro. The Left was wrong about the Nicaraguan Sandidistas.
It's not surprising that they are wrong in Iraq!!!
ah,ASH BASH has figured us out.....
take cover again CIA agents......
look out Ali,Omar,and Mohammed....
shut the site down
right now
He's quite clearly holding up Pakistan as a model government for the Middle East.
...and you determined this how???? Can you be specific? I never heard President Bush EVER attempt to hold up Pakistan as a model government.
Where do you get this stuff? Do you just make it up?
illegal was the Food for Oil act, and tons of stuff Saddam did that got him "ultimatums" that never came through until W. Bush did something about it, if you're looking at it from a legal standpoint. It was the United Nations along with the United States lawful duty to remove Saddam after he broke all the rules. Unfortunately a few veto powers were getting millions under the table ILLEGALLY so they decided they wanted to keep getting it and said no...
As for morality, I think it stands for itself that it was the moral thing to remove Saddam from his twisted rule and promote a better Iraq and a better world.
And as far as justification, that should be enough, but if you want more, it's out there. Reading The Pentagon's New Map is a good place to start.
Christopher Hitchens, one of the few Lefties who supported removing Saddam from power, said correctly, I think, that the Left is mad at Bush for liberating 50 million Afghans and Iraqis because it makes the Left's so-called concern about human rights look phony.
So true.
erhm,Neonknight, did you read the whitehouse release Ahmed posted. Sound like a 'model government' to me.
Let me copy it here again for you
You are aware that Musharraf came to power in a military coup, right?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/r...20041204-
2.html
One of the interesting lessons that the world can look at is Pakistan. You see, there are some in the world who do not believe that a Muslim society can self-govern. Some believe that the only solution for government in parts of the world is for there to be tyranny or despotism. I don't believe that. The Pakistan people have proven that those cynics are wrong. And where President Musharraf can help in world peace is to help remind people what is possible. And the solution in the Middle East is for there to be a world effort to help the Palestinians develop a state that is truly free--one that's got an independent judiciary, one that's got a civil society, one that's got the capacity to fight off the terrorists, one that allows for dissent, one in which people can vote. And President Musharraf can play a big role in helping achieve that objective.
Tonight I salute all American troops defending my freedom of speech.
I have 2 more days to work and will then fly to the holy city of New York to begin my Christmas holiday. I feel no malice to the great people of New York so please do not hold it against me when you see my shiny new Boston Red Sox cap!
Merry Christmas to one and all and this Zionist neo-Con will continue to pray for peace on Earth.
Light up your tree!
Joy to the World!
Neon, he doesn't make this stuff up. He got it from Chomsky or mr. Cole, who made it up.
I've never heard Bush hold Pakistan up as a model government.
OK Ash...
Why are we talking about Pakistan? We all know that the coup that is being metioned happened during the Clinton administration.
So, is Bush supposed to declare war against all dictators at the same time?
The Left makes no sense at all. No wonder they lost the election (in America and in Australia).
Follow the link, right out of ole Bushies mouth.
i do not have to try anything,
this is not my blog.....however....
the brothers have banned a few
in the past.........and they are
not with US today.......still
alive,i am sure...not acid bathed
by INSANE MAN....OR raped by the
sons........but,still alive and
whining about life somewhere....
in their parents basements at age
40........
I think that since America is paying the money for the toppling of dictators (Afghanistan and Iraq), America should get to decide which dictators get toppled first!!
Also, it might not be militarily feasible to topple certain dictators at this time.
Take World War II for example. Churchill and FDR knew that Stalin was a monster. But they decided defeating Hitler was the primary goal.
The Left doesn't understand this level of complexity!
Andrea, your contributions are up to your usual standards.
Goodnight all.
Mk wrote:
I don't see how you're the one saying this when you'd rather see a brutal dictator running an oppressed country than freedom and democracy.
Honestly, I would have rather lived in Saddam's Iraq than contemporary Saudi Arabia. Especially if I was a woman. Unless I was a princess, of course.
I still fail to see how you can think having Saddam in power and people starving, tortured, put in mass graves, without freedom or a way to provide for their families or a say in their government or fate is a good thing.
It's not a good thing. I just don't believe that things are any better for most Iraqis now. Is that so hard for you to understand?
Yes, the terrorist connection is part of the justification. There's plenty of links.
Ah, yes. I was responsible for many of those stories. Too bad they've all been debunked.
And I did read those articles you sent me
You were obviously very selective in your reading. I did not say that the deaths were caused by soldiers, I said that they were caused by BOMBS.
http://www.jhsph.edu/PublicHealthNews/ Press_Releases/PR_2004/Burnham_Iraq.html
Eighty-four percent of the deaths were reported to be caused by the actions of Coalition forces and 95 percent of those deaths were due to air strikes and artillery.
It's a good thing for Europe and America that you're not calling the shots, or we'd be colonies of Al Queda.
Do you really believe that? Because that's clinically insane.
Either Blair was misinformed or he lied about the numbers, OK.
You made a claim that there more bodies found in Saddam-era mass graves than the 100,000 number that the Johns Hopkins researchers had ascertained. I humbly corrected you.
Ash,
So now I'm supposed to be mad at Bush for not toppling the dictator of Pakistan and also mad at Bush for toppling Saddam?
Huh?
MK: LOL
I love this, THEY said it so it must be TRUE!
Good grief, where is all the outrage from all these commentors, about the Ivory Coast Murders?! All on video, and shamelessly ignored by all the 'regime loving' liberals and the media!
Ahmed,
At least you have come out of the closet as a supporter of Saddam's dictatorship and an opponent of democracy in Iraq.
At least you are honest about it!
Personally, I prefer to be on the side of democracy for people who have not, up until next January, enjoy its benefits.
Andrea, You're fired up tonight...are you in the Girrrl-Power band on lead guitar? Check out A Christmas Carol on TNT...starring John Luc Piccard from Star Trek...I was Wharf on Halloween...whhoooohhhooooooooo!!!!
Mark, they have the "all or nothing" mentality, apparently. So the world's not perfect. So we are moving one step at a time. So what? It's just all their excuse to accomplish completely nothing and be proud of it. Notice the ones claiming it was so much better before the Iraq war fail to say anything good about Saddam, his regime, or about the quality of "living" (it deserves quotes) for the Iraqi people under Saddam. All they want to do is bitch and complain about how things aren't perfect. I'll admit it, things aren't perfect. So what?
Then again, maybe you were on to something about the jealousy thing you said earlier
that the Left is mad at Bush for liberating 50 million Afghans and Iraqis because it makes the Left's so-called concern about human rights look phony.
I just don't like the left/right division much, it's a decent generalization, but there are those on the left who are pro-Iraq war and those on the right who are anti-Iraq war.
Anyway, I think even if Clinton had stepped up to the task of taking down Saddam, or if it was Kerry, most of them would still bitch and complain. It's what they do best.
Oh my God, I can't believe how stupid I am. Once again, I totally forgot about how the Right supported genocidal dictators like Fulguencio Batista, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Anastasio Somoza, the Duvaliers, Rios Montt, Maximiliano Hernandez Martinez, Augusto Pinochet, Ferdinand Marcos, Sese Seko Mobutu, Saddam Hussein, etc.
Wow, I don't know what got into me. I guess I just hate the Left so much that I get really irrational about it sometimes.
Who are all these new people?
I need to turn the mind control wave beam reactor up! Where did all these band-wagon jumpers come from? And WHO the hell is Anonymous?
Mark wrote:
At least you have come out of the closet as a supporter of Saddam's dictatorship and an opponent of democracy in Iraq.
That is false. I merely stated that I would rather live under Saddam Hussein than under the Saudi Arabian monarchy. Especially if I was a woman. Why is it so difficult for you to understand such a simple statement? Obviously, more than anything in the world, I would much prefer if I could become to Iraq what Musharraf is to Pakistan. If you would like to call that "democracy", I am happy with that.
Yes, the terrorist connection is part of the justification. There's plenty of links.
Ah, yes. I was responsible for many of those stories. Too bad they've all been debunked.
Sorry poser, they have not been debunked. How many freakin' times do I have to say that Zarqawi was treated in a Baghdad Ba'ath party hospital for wounds suffered while fighting US troops in Afghanistan. I know I have said that at least 3 times in the past couple of months so I will forgive you if you were not around then
Furthermore, Saddam was giving anywhere from $35,000-$50,000 to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.
sorry ALI when i swear,but this
ASH(ASSHOLE)has just sort of insulted
me for my contributions being made here........and it is sad that
this person said,that i give, USUAL STANDARDS
know i can only laugh.........
on the floor laughing now.....
if this person ever new.......
bwahahahahaha
Abu Abbas, mastermind of the Achille Lauro highjacking, is captured in Baghdad in 2003.
Lieutenant Colonel Ahmed Hikmat Shakir, Fedayeen officer, is linked to a 2000 Kuala Lumpur Al'Qaeda summit.
Abu Nidal, acknowledged terrorist, who operated training camps in Syria and highjacked a Pan Am flight, is found in Baghdad in 2002.
Ansar-al-Islam, a Taliban-style terrorist group operating in Northern Iraq, supports and is supported by the Iraqi intelligence service.
Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi travels to Baghdad in 2002, fleeing the American advance in Afghanistan, to get medical treatment there.
The Mujahedin-e-Khalq, an anti-Iranian terrorist group, is based in Iraq.
Ramzi Yousef arrives in New York on Sept. 1, 1992, with an Iraqi passport and plans the 1993 WTC bombing.
The Salman Pak training facility, southeast of Baghdad, is suspected of providing training for highjackers.
There are suspicions Iraqi intelligence provided identities to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and others, using IDs stolen during the occupation of Kuwait.
Abdul Rahman Yassin, involved in the 1993 WTC bombing, was given shelter in Iraq.
Saddam paid tens of thousands of dollars to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.
Involving Farouk Hijazi, former Iraqi ambassador to Turkey, negotiations about a possible alliance between Saddam Hussein's regime and al-Qaeda took place in 1998.
Add them all up, and they give deadly indications. Added to that, Saddam was the only world leader not to offer condolences after 9/11. Some pictures found in Iraq celebrating the attack shown here.
Long live a peaceful, free Iraq!
and
Save the Whales!!!!!!
"Saddam's Links" was me.
Hey Iranian Mullah,
I AM THE GHOST OF CHRISTMAS PAST...
SOON we will meet...
Doorgunner:
How many freakin' times do I have to say that Zarqawi was treated in a Baghdad Ba'ath party hospital for wounds suffered while fighting US troops in Afghanistan.
And that means that he collaborated with Saddam Hussein? Please. By that same logic, George Bush trained the Saudis that flew airplanes into the World Trade Centers. They learned how to fly 747s in America.
Furthermore, Saddam was giving anywhere from $35,000-$50,000 to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.
Yes, that was an interesting public relations ploy on his part. But it doesn't hold a candle to the financing by the Saudis.
Btw, where is Osama bin Laden these days? It would seem that he isn't in Iraq after all.
Ash and Anomalass and AC etc. remind me of something Mohammed said in the US: that compared to the 24/7 anxiety and terror imposed for decades by SH, the current terrorist attacks were insignificant.
Same for their yapping behind the wheels of the fire engine. Insignificant.
Posting guide:
<a href="url goes here"> title goes here</a>
Cowboy,i am sure there are a few
new positive,and few negative people since
the brothers trip,so get out the
the sauce......
and Doorgunner,god,i love you!!
fell off my chair.......
and Adam,
the mother f*%%$@# is going down...
I hereby declare a fatwa on Mr. Iranian Mullah...you days are numbered...you will be tripped up soon...watch your back, sides and front...
It is time to make the sauce.
Over at Martinirepublic they are still ranting about the brothers being way out of the Iraqi main stream. I placed a post on the issue on their site and I though that it might be worth repeating here. If I have misrepresented the position of ITM in any way I apologize, and someone please straighten me out:
Okay, let's check out this theory that the polls show ITM to be way out of the mainstream of Iraqi thought. I have a link to an Iraqi opinion poll that was conducted between September 24 and October 4.
http://www.iri.org/10-22-04-iraq.asp
So let's see how things line up.
45% of Iraqis say that the country is headed in the wrong direction, 42% say it is headed in the right direction. The brothers would probably be in the minority here, but it is barely a minority.
Of the people who think that it is heading in the wrong direction 63% think that it is because of the poor security situation. 17% think that it is because of the presence of occupation forces. The brothers would probably be in the majority in thinking that security is Iraq's biggest problem. They are certainly not with the minority that think that the coalition is the problem.
65% of Iraqis believe that their life will be better one year from the poll. The brothers would definitely fall into that majority.
69% of Iraqis believe that the prospect of civil war is unrealistic. The brother are again in the majority.
33% of Iraqis believe that the Multi National Forces are most to blame for the problems in Iraq. 32% believe that it is foreign terrorists. 8.1% believe it is armed supporters of the Saddam regime. Putting all the insurgent together, they are considered to be the biggest problem. ITM would fall into that majority. The bad rating for the MNF probably means that those people are not doing enough to insure security. The United States is also on the list of problem causes, but it only received 1.5% of the vote. Riverbend would probably vote with that 1.5%
When asked what would most improve the Iraqi security situation the top two out of six responses were to strengthen the IP,34% and to hold elections as scheduled 22%. I think that the brothers would have no problem with this. Riverbend, however, seems to take a very dim view of the elections.
46% of Iraqis think that Allawi has been very effecive or somewhat effective. 43% think that he has been somewhat ineffective or very ineffective. Again, the brothers would fall into the majority group and Riverbend would fall into the minority.
59% of Iraqis believe that Iraq will be ready to hold elections by January 30. The brothers are part of that majority.
85.5% of Iraqis say they plan to vote in the elections. You can't keep the brothers out of that majority.
52.3% of Iraqis believe that religion and government should respect one another by not impeding on the rights and roles and responsibilites of the other. 38% believe that religion has a special role to play in gov
Brian H.
today you made me really laugh....
Adam and Doorgunner,
Did Zarqawi get his leg amputated in Iraq or not?
Continued from previous.
52.3% of Iraqis believe that religion and government should respect one another by not impeding on the rights and roles and responsibilites of the other. 38% believe that religion has a special role to play in government. The brothers are again in the majority.
We have another poll that measures things like the desire of Iraqis for democracy and freedom:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/
shared..._iraqsurvey.pdf
Let's take a look.
In this poll 70% were optimistic about their future. 7% were pessimistic. The brothers are with the optimists. Riverbend is with the pessimists.
72.2% of Iraqis think that they want an Iraqi democracy. That majority clearly includes ITM.
When given 18 choices as to why democracy was important to them the largest group by far, 34%, said that it was because of freedom. Of course the brothers were singing the praises of freedom in their recent US trip.
79% of Iraqis believe that there should be one unified Iraq with a central government in Baghdad. The brothers agree.
17% of Iraqis believe that it is acceptable to attack coalition forces. 78% believe that it is not. Again ITM is in the majority.
So what have we learned from all of this? We learned that Juan Cole and Martinirepublic restricted their interests and their judgements about main stream Iraqis to their opinions about the coalition, and the US. Yes it is true that Iraqis have a bad opinion of both and yes it is true that the brothers have not been effected by the Al Jazeera propaganda against the US. But does that mean that they are not representative of Iraqi opinion. Obviously they are representative in the great majority of things. Riverbend is much less representative. So the simple litmus test for credibility that is used by Juan Cole and Martinirepublic is that if you hate the US and Bush you are credible and representative. If you like the US you are obviously a CIA plant.
Wok
Fresh chopped tomotoes
one onion
2-7 garlic cloves
5 good shrooms
red + green bell peppers
Italian olive oil
optional: ground sirloin, ground pork, or sweet Italian sausage
tomato paste
Kikoman soy sauce
dash of cayanne pepper
dash of black pepper
Cook in wok...timing is a key! Just do it and report how it turned out, practice makes perfect!!!
a shot of red wine will work here
Ash wrote:
I've heard this is a CIA site, maybe Andrea is an agent.
It certainly could be. It is remarkably embedded in the incestuous amplification of right wing bloggers. However, Andrea is just another mark. I know. I can spot em a mile away.
tomatoes....or tomahhhtoes?
I love this site!
Hey Ahmed, did you take your meds today?
And that means that he collaborated with Saddam Hussein?
OHHHH. . . You mean he just moseyed on in to a hospital in an iron-fisted police state and no one caught on? Do you really believe he could just walk in to a place reserved for only the highest Ba'ath party members WITHOUT a little bit of cooperating going on. YEAH RIGHT!
I never said anything about 9/11, did I? You just assumed I was trying to say that. Very Michael Moore-ish of you. If you read the 9/11 report, you will find that there was evidence of a 12 year history of contacts between Saddam and al-Qaeda.
Don't get the idea that I want to give the Saudis a free pass. Those bastards are just as responsible as anyone else.
Lastly, I don't give a damn about Osama. He is nothing more than a figurehead. He's probably in a cave somewhere with his 72 virgin goats.
ahmed,
ask INSANE MAN!!!!!!!!
then,take a walk,and keep
on a going,just like the
energizer man........
just wait til some of
the trials start.....
i'll put down a 20 that
a few have talked by now...
won't even click on it ahmed.....
won't give it the time of day....
boring,ohhhh uuummm
Make the sauce...got a wok?...if not use a large fryin pan...try it you'll like it...use a good knife and cutting board to do your chop-chop!
Goes great with your favorite Barilla Pasta! Manga
really hate to go,but,need to
finish the christmas cards....
and
doorgunner,most likely wont spell
this right tonight,but i always
have given to OPERATION GRATITUDE...
THANK YOU!!!!!!
HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!!!!
XXXXOOO
wish the best for your young one also
Cowboy, you got a sec? Go back to Sam's site for a sec! Having a little laugh at an anon!
Doorgunner wrote:
Lastly, I don't give a damn about Osama. He is nothing more than a figurehead. He's probably in a cave somewhere with his 72 virgin goats.
Really? I'm suprised that you wouldn't want justice from the man who financed and coordinated the attacks on September 11, 2001. Your beloved leader doesn't appear to bu up to the task, otherwise, your country wouldn't have wasted so much time and money trying to install my INC in Iraq. Are you just making excuses for him? Perhaps it is because you don't love your country very much after all.
Thanks Andrea, but it's actually young ones. Got twins
AHMED,BYE BYE NOW,HAVE A GOOD LIFE...
JUST DON'T COME BACK HERE CRYING
ANYMORE........THATS,RIGHT,IT WAS
ALL BUSH'S PROBLEM....WHILE CLINTON
WAS DOING MONICA UNDER HIS WATCH...
AND SHE IS A CUNT ALSO,TAKES 2 TOO
TANGLE....IT WAS ALOT OF HIS PROBLEM
ALSO,WHY 9-11 JUST SORT OF CAME
ABOUT I GUESS.......FRICKIN DIP
WAD........
Doorgunner wrote:
Lastly, I don't give a damn about Osama. He is nothing more than a figurehead. He's probably in a cave somewhere with his 72 virgin goats.
Really? I'm suprised that you wouldn't want justice from the man who financed and coordinated the attacks on September 11, 2001. Your beloved leader doesn't appear to bu up to the task, otherwise, your country wouldn't have wasted so much time and money trying to install my INC in Iraq. Are you just making excuses for him? Perhaps it is because you don't love your country very much after all.
Ahmed Chalabi | Email | Homepage | 12.16.04 - 1:14 am | #
Yakkity, yak, yak. . . The only thing I want for my country is that no backwards-ass, goat humping, Third World piss-ants fly jetliners into our freakin buildings again. Justice for that scumbag would be a slow rot in an obscure cave where his baboon followers can't find him to make a martyr out of him.
Beloved leader up to the task?
So you think that the president of the United States should be humping a rifle and 50 pounds of gear through Tora Bora in order to personally capture Osama. I know you want to insult GWB with that statement, but you are actually insulting braver men than you who risk, everything to hunt that fucker down.
Don't love my country? Ummmm. . .yeah sure pal. I went to war for my country because I hate it. Whatever.
ok,this will be the last,
i swear for tonight......
i am not left or right,just
want the best for my country.....
but this summer did it in for
me with the so called left......
Bush is hiding OSMA right before
the elections,and will pull him
out of a cave.....i lost it then...
lefters..........tried to hear
both sides.....then there was
michael moore,need i say more?
i support the troops more then
ever now,and the iraqi people!!!!
AND THESE BROTHERS!!!!!!!!!
Doorgunner,
know you want to insult GWB with that statement, but you are actually insulting braver men than you who risk, everything to hunt that fucker down.
No, I am not. I am talking about foreign policy decisions, intelligence analysis and executive judgement. The fact that he hasn't fired Rumsfeld, promoted Condoleeza Rice and just awarded Tenet, Bremer and Franks the presidential medal of honors shows that he hasn't learned anything from his mistakes.
I went to war for my country because I hate it. Whatever.
Yeah, well sorry to tell you this but they sent you to the wrong place.
Presidential Medals of Freedom, rather
AHMED GET SOME FRICKIN SEX!!!!!!!!
TAKE A GLUE FROM BILL CLINTON,
YOU CAN GET IT FOR FREE........
andrea/flannels/minnesota,
No, thank you, I don't want to get any more women pregnant right now. I have too many children as it is.
Ahmed Chalabi, what is your opinion on the PNAC? Do you believe that you fed them misinformation on purpose? Or were you, as some have alleged, framed? Did you frame yourself in regards to the Iranian codes to get credibility within Iraq?
In addition, is the talk of a temporary alliance with Al'Sadr to be believed?
You seem unafraid to be criticized, by the CIA and others. You've also shown a persistent ability to stay involved in the political game and in the news. On top of that, you helped to organize a 1996 uprising against Saddam in the north (although a failure, it showed some commitment). You've also demonstrated an ability to be careless with the money of others.
The skills you've shown, therefore, are those of a typical politician in the world. It would lead one to ask about your ambitions within Iraq. In 2003, you said "I'm not a candidate for any position in Iraq, and I don't seek an office." What's the real story?
Now you're making some sense. Tenet should have been thrown out on his ass for the Clinton era intel flaws.
Franks, however, led the quickest military advance with the least casualties in the history of the US military.
BTW, where should they have sent me?
Ha, according to Chalabi, the master of all foriegn knowledge (Cole and Chomsky would agree, and if they do, it's true!), they sent you to the wrong place.
And then he says going after Saddam isn't effective against Osama and terror. Chalabi, you reveal more and more you have no idea of strategy. I figured it out when you resulted to cheap insults instead of trying to back your ridiculous statements.
Or when you like to give selective statements to back your claims, but when a majority more prove your little worldview to be pure illusion, you simply throw them out, 'cause you can't deal with it. You're a sad man. Then agian, you're impersonating Ahmed Chalabi, so that's already obvious. (or are you going to claim you're the real one, sitting on blogs all day?)
As far as going after Osama, obviously Bush is, or are you that out of touch with world events? But try to think about strategy for a minute. First of all, there were plenty other reasons to go after Saddam, but the War on Terror is included. That whole area of the world has been in a similar situation to what gave Hitler power in post-WWI Germany. No wonder terrorist networks are thriving. If you just keep hunting down Osamas, more will rise up and you'll just keep pissing people off. But if you change the environment so that no more Osamas form, and they have no more support, then you have victory, and everyone benefits. That is, except the terrorists themselves, and corrupt politicians making millions off them like Chirac and Kofi Annan's son...
But I don't expect you to understand that. You have that high ground intellectual attitude, and you're just about as empty as the rest who carry it. All you seem to get is insults, so here you go. (At least mine aren't nonsense.)
Once again, all you want to do is bitch and complain. Criticising is easy. Wow, you've accomplished. You can't see the forest for the trees, you defend Saddam all the while denying it, and you can't back your ridiculous statements when the facts come rolling in besides denying everything except what you want to believe.
You are not the real Ahmed Chalabi.
And that about sums it up.
Doorgunner,
Frankly, I think he gave it to Tenet to shut him up. He knows things that are best kept private. And, no offense, but the presidential medal of freedom is for civilians, not military.
Isn't it obvious where they should have sent you? To bring security and reconstruction to Afghanistan. Also, you could have helped to fight the opium production, which is getting really out of hand these days. Isn't it a bit odd that the Americans are allowing druglords to control Afghanistan?
Mk,
I really don't know what you're talking about. I haven't insulted anybody on this blog, nor have I made any reference to this Chomsky fellow that you are so fond of. I have never once defended Saddam Hussein, nor have I taken an "intellectual high ground attitude". Whatever that means.
I have, however, made some verifiable factual corrections to several of your posts. If you are offended by that, I am sorry. However, I do see fit to tell the truth when it comes to such important things.
Oh and, yes, I am posting under an obvious pseudonym but you are just as anonymous under your two letter nick. Hardly brings much credibility to your posts either now, does it?
And your truths were retorted by the acutal thing, but whatever.
I'm not as anonymous since I put up a valid email address and website. But that doesn't matter.
What does matter is if you're not defending Saddam, and you agree a free world, rid of terrorists, is better than one with Saddam in power, repression and full of terror, then we have no quarrell here. Then sorry if I misunderstood. Goodnight.
Hey guys, F*CK Juan Cole and move on.
He is a sniping little Jack Terrier who has his cadre of choirboys and you will never "defeat" him.
You have a great blog. Please just continue posting and don't let the mewling neurotics over here drag you into a pissing contest over whose ego (or whatever) is the largest.
Truth is like a lion. You don't need to "defend" a lion. You just set it loose.
Ali,
On so many blogs I've been reading for days about your brothers' wonderful visits with Mr. Bush and the editor of the Wall Street Journal, among their other exciting experiences, but still I have seen no word about all this on Iraqthemodel. Why not? Peculiar. I'd expect them to send you firsthand descriptions which you could then share with us. I'll be patient. And will we ever hear why your 'invitation' was 'cancelled'? I hope not for unpleasant reasons. Anyway, we'll see.
Hey guys, F*CK Juan Cole and move on.
Isn't that moveon.org? lol
Unfortunately most of these posters are stuck in the wrong chapter.
History will pass them by ONCE AGAIN and what happens to their reputations when they are proven wrong?
It's their egos they are concerned about, not the United States and certainly not Iraq.
Are the brothers home yet?
It's time to start campaigning.
Good news from Iraq: Ishtar Airlines, an independent airline made up of Iraqi employees and pilots, was launched.
Ishtar Airlines link again.
Chalabi wrote:
"Isn't it obvious where they should have sent you? To bring security and reconstruction to Afghanistan. Also, you could have helped to fight the opium production, which is getting really out of hand these days. Isn't it a bit odd that the Americans are allowing druglords to control Afghanistan?"
Afghanistan has had it's first ever free elections. 3 million refugees have returned. Construction and rebuilding are going on at a dizzing pace. The population of Kabul has tripled. Women are voting, going to school, joining the work force. The warlords are loosing their power. The Taliban have been beaten. The prospects could hardly be brighter considering what has been accomplished in such a short time.
But of course, being a left wing flake, you want to grasp any straw of negativity that you can find. So now you are reduced to pretending that the only issue that exists concerning success or failure in Afghanistan is opium.
Karzai has promised to address the opium issue and so far he has been true to his promises. Of course you will take the cynical view and pretend that the issue will not be addressed. And after Karzai solves the problem you will remain silent and pretend that you never made the idiotic remarks that you are now making.
Andrea,
Cool the foul language please.
"What does matter is if you're not defending Saddam, and you agree a free world, rid of terrorists, is better than one with Saddam in power, repression and full of terror, then we have no quarrell here. Then sorry if I misunderstood. Goodnight.
Mk
Good morning!
MK, I do not think you will get much disagreement on that statement. The irony is that the Bush Administration's actions do not further these goals. In fact their actions are counterproductive. True, Saddam is not in power, but the world now has more terror and repression because of the Bush Administrations actions.
That Ishtar Airlines is kind of funny. Like airports everywhere, but more so in Iraq, be careful, very careful, on the car trip to the airport.
The level of discourse on this blog is depressing, lots of nasty vulgarity, insinuation and character assassination. Too bad it has come to this. People are being blinded, dismembered, badly burned, traumatized, etc. on a daily basis, including U.S. and Iraqi citizens, something which many posters on this blog seem to be entirely ignorant of, as if the blogosphere is an antidote to all reality. I'm sorry, I do not want to move on, I want to know what this whole hulabaloo is about: iraqthemodel, matrinirepublic, juancole. Still now I move on: Ishtar, really, the wanton hussy of the Gilgamesh epic, among her other estimable qualities, is now the flying representative of the new democratic Iraq. After all, as the Ishtar Airlines site itself tells us, temples were centres of trade and banking. In Dubai they must be very amused. I'm anxious to see how the self-appointed U.S. vice squads will react when she lands in the U.S. for the first time, with her bared breasts.
Ash wrote:
"but the world now has more terror and repression because of the Bush Administrations actions."
What is your evidence?
Ash,
You are entitled to your beliefs that the world is a worse place without Saddam in place.
As a veteran of the first Gulf War, we all knew that leaving Saddam in place would be counterproductive. In other words, we would have to deal with the Saddam problem again. During the interim, Saddam threw away the Cease Fire he signed. He did this by attacking the Shiites in the south. This brought about the "No-Fly Zones" in the north and the south. Saddam continued to shoot at British and American planes that were enforcing the "No-Fly Zones". Realistically, Saddam broke the Cease-Fire agreement and Desert Storm resumed. Saddam was also trying to re-arm after the schlacking his forces took (I have the link but it's on the other computer at home). Even the UN Inspectors were deceived and lied to from Saddam's government representatives. How trustworthy of a person can Saddam be (and I have not touched on the human rights violations that Saddam committed against his people)?
Last, if we had left Saddam alone (which would have happened because the UN, not finding anything of consequence, would have pulled out, leaving Saddam to do whatever he wanted), it would have led to a greater conflict than we know of. It would make our concerns of terror activities miniscule. More lives would have been lost because of Saddam's "Nebercuzzer" Syndrome.
I firmly believe this and am glad Saddam is gone from power.
It is pretty well accepted that the US actions in Iraq have inflamed anti-US opinion world wide. The ranks of the more 'extreme' anti-US terrorists will have also swelled. Have noticed the 'Osama recruitment videos' being played on national newscasts world wide? or all those pictures of detainee abuse at Abu Gharib? It depends how you define terror. According the Bush Admin, all those attacks in Iraq are attacks by terrorists, so ya, terror has increased. Then there is the terror propagated by the US government. Shock and Awe was intended to do just that 'Shock and Awe' them into submission.
Repression, you have no further to look then at home, The Patriot Act.
Finally someone has decided to initiate the necessary dialogue between these two warring parties?
Israelis and the Palestinians?
NO.
Shia and Sunni?
NO.
The French and the Americans?
NO.
Answer: Blogger Jeffrey and Commenter Jeffrey.
For too long these disparate souls have been in conflict. Someone from OUTSIDE needed to intervene to bring the chance of peace between these two factions.
CMAR II reviews some of their joint and painful history at:
Iraqi Bloggers Central.
Feel their pain!
*
Tilo Reber,
Karzai 'solve' the problem of increasing opium production: you must be kidding, only if he employs the Taliban. This is something like the so-called war on drugs which has been going on for at least thirty years and every the year the level of consumption only increases. It is mind-boggling the nearly everyone overlooks that fact. Just as on this blog many posters overlook the fact that people, citizens of Iraq, U.S. and quite a few other countries, are daily being killed, blinded, dismembered, severely burned, incapacitated, mentally and otherwise.What are all of you talking about? Can someone tell me. Dream on.
Ash, You claim that there is more repression even though the entire ME is talking about democracy and dreaming that it can happen for the first time in history. There are already some cracks like local elections in Saudi Arabia and Jordan, demonstations in Iran, the upcoming elections in Iraq and Palestine, elections in Afghanistan, mnay blogs and papers calling for reform throughout the ME.
You seem to think that there will be more terrorism as a result of action in Iraq. That maybe true in the short run but in the long run, a successful Iraq will light the way for the ME to prosper and live freely. A free ME will destroy the recruiting grounds of terrorists and lead to a more peaceful world.
And even in the short run, there seesm to be less terrorism outside of Iraq. Iraq has become the frontlines of the WoT with jihadists from around the gathering, fighting, and dying. The enemy is losing its leaders and followers there at a rapid rate.
Bush has always said that this will be fight for many years and will not be won until his generation has left this earth. And it may be messy (see previous discussion from yesterday on ethnic strife) but it is the only way to be successful.
Quentin wrote:
"Karzai 'solve' the problem of increasing opium production: you must be kidding, only if he employs the Taliban."
Typical brain dead cynicism. No reasoning. No explanation.
"This is something like the so-called war on drugs which has been going on for at least thirty years and every the year the level of consumption only increases."
Especially in Holland where they are not bothering to fight it. If the Taliban cut opium production, there is no reason that Karzai cannot do the same - despite your defeatist attitude.
"Just as on this blog many posters overlook the fact that people, citizens of Iraq, U.S. and quite a few other countries, are daily being killed, blinded, dismembered, severely burned, incapacitated, mentally and otherwise.What are all of you talking about?"
No one is overlooking anything. We are just not wallowing in it like you are. Every war that has ever been fought has had those same problems. Is it your contention that no war has ever been worth it?
>>>Repression, you have no further to look then at home, The Patriot Act.
That's sort of nutty. I haven't seen Muslims (or anyone else) being herded into concentration camps. Just a few hundred illegal aliens and terrorists put in jail where they can't kill us.
Desert Storm Vet I,
Saddam was, and is, a bad, bad man. He was a conniving bluffing ruler whom had little real power. How he was removed from power is a problem. At the time of his removal his global/military power was weak, he did, however, have a lot of power over the people's lives in Iraq, much of this power emanated through the structure of the sanctions regimes.
Very few simply advocated 'leaving him alone', though many argued that the invasion would be counterproductive and counterproductive it has proved to be.
It sure would be nice if we could develop international mechanisms to depose despotic rulers, unfortunately the current US administration is firmly against such a mechanism.
What is the "Nebercuzzer" syndrome?
>>>>It is pretty well accepted that the US actions in Iraq have inflamed anti-US opinion world wide.
The world has always been full of nuts looking for any excuse to get mad at the U.S. My response is: SO WHAT? What are they going to now that they're mad, fly planes into our buildings? They did that BEFORE we invaded Iraq.
>>>>Very few simply advocated 'leaving him alone', though many argued that the invasion would be counterproductive and counterproductive it has proved to be.
I would say freeing 25 million people and ridding the world of a monstrous regime was VERY productive.
>>>>>It sure would be nice if we could develop international mechanisms to depose despotic rulers, unfortunately the current US administration is firmly against such a mechanism.
It sure would be nice if we lived in Fairy Tale Land where things like that would be possible, instead of here in reality where they aren't.
Ash,
Forgive my spelling on "Nebercuzzer".
Saddam, by history, has been an invader of his surrounding countries. Even though he was thrashed by Coalition Forces in 1991, I firmly believe by leaving him in power, Saddam would have risen again to fight another day.
As for Nebucunezzar, he was a king during Biblical times that invaded neighboring countries for conquest & to increase his sphere of influence. Saddam has used Nebucunezzar as a reference to why his being a leader was all about. Hence, the Nebucunezzar Syndrome.
Concerning world opinion, it was already inflmammed. Most of Europe has despised the US for the last 15-20 years. The Middle East has despised us since the concept of Israel. We are hearing more about this, thanks to better "media" coverage and the Internet. 9/11 & Iraq are just catalysts for our despisement.
>>>Repression, you have no further to look then at home, The Patriot Act.
That's sort of nutty. I haven't seen Muslims (or anyone else) being herded into concentration camps. Just a few hundred illegal aliens and terrorists put in jail where they can't kill us.
TallDave
You don't see them herded because they don't allow the media to show you what is going on at Guantanamo Bay. Below is a more personal view of the new repression that can happen in the US now. It could happen to you.
From the NYTimes:
But that afternoon, their managers pulled the Afsharis aside and delivered a stunning message: they had failed secret background checks and were being fired. No explanations were offered and no appeals allowed. They were escorted to the door and told not to return.
TallDave wrote:
"The world has always been full of nuts looking for any excuse to get mad at the U.S."
yep, and now you've given them more 'excuses' and there are more of them, which was the origianl meaning of my post, MORE TERROR, MORE REPRESSION, then before the invasion.
You also wrote:
">>>>>It sure would be nice if we could develop international mechanisms to depose despotic rulers, unfortunately the current US administration is firmly against such a mechanism.
It sure would be nice if we lived in Fairy Tale Land where things like that would be possible, instead of here in reality where they aren't."
That is the purpose of the World Court, which the US opposes because the US would be subject to its Law as well. You know, the US and its citizens wouldn't be able to commit genocide, things like that.
Ash wrote:
"It is pretty well accepted that the US actions in Iraq have inflamed anti-US opinion world wide."
The subject is not anti US opinion. It is terrorism and repression.
"The ranks of the more 'extreme' anti-US terrorists will have also swelled."
How do you know that they are more swelled. How do you know that they were not more swelled in the past when Al Quida enjoyed all kinds of success in Afghanistan and Chechnya and Somalia? How do you know that when Al Quida was able to attack the US without response by the Clinton administration that it did not cause their ranks to swell? What do you think gave Al Quida the idea that they could attack the US with impunity?
"Have noticed the 'Osama recruitment videos' being played on national newscasts world wide?"
Osama was a popular leader in the Arab world long before Bush came to power. His ranks were growing before Bush came to power.
"or all those pictures of detainee abuse at Abu Gharib?"
And you are suggesting that we should shape our national policy because certain people use such isolated incidents for their own propaganda purposes?
"It depends how you define terror. According the Bush Admin, all those attacks in Iraq are attacks by terrorists, so ya, terror has increased."
Since there are less attacks in other places in the world, such as Afghanistan, you have yet to demonstrate that overall terror has increased. Iraq is not the world. Furhermore, Iraq is in a transition condition. It's like you are saying that France should have remained a monarchy because the French revolution was a horror that increased the amount of violence over what previously existed.
"Then there is the terror propagated by the US government. Shock and Awe was intended to do just that 'Shock and Awe' them into submission."
You don't seem to be able to tell the difference between terrorism and a war against a dictatorship. The people who were being Shocked and Awed into submission were not the civilians.
"Repression, you have no further to look then at home, The Patriot Act."
Tell me all about the repression that you or any of your friends have suffered as a result of the Patriot Act. Details please.
I always love critics that complain non-stop but never offer their own solutions. What were we supposed to do with SoDamn Insane?? Just keep him boxed in?? What would that policy have brought about??
First, keeping him boxed in with troops was the maim reason that UBL attacked us. It was because we had troops on the "Holy Land" of the Arabian peninsula. As long as our troops were there, he would continue his jihad against us.
Second. Many more Iraqis would die at the dictators hands. It was estimeated that 10,000 people died per month either of torture, murder, execution, starvation, malnutrition, and poor medical care. Many of these were under the age of six.
Third, an eventual collapse of the dictator either by old age or due to sanctions. Either his sons would have taken over and made things much worse or, more likely, a civil war would have errupted. A civil war would have led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Most probably, it would have led to ethnic cleansing and the inevitable actions of surrounding countires such as Turkey, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and more. This would have led to the partition of Iraq, wider wars between neighboring combatants, possibly the inclusion of Israel. Who knows, it could have led to a wider war including the Turks, Russia, China, and maybe even a world war, leading to a nuclear holocaust.
Seems to me the world owes us a huge favor for doing this the most peaceful way possible.
Desert Storm Vet I,
9/11 & Iraq are just catalysts for our despisement.
What is that supposed to mean? The US received sympathy throughout the world and the ME after 9/11. It is sad that your country squandered those good feelings by invading Iraq instead of seeking justice with Usama bin Laden and attenuating the appeal of extremist Wahabi fundamentalistm.
Concerning world opinion, it was already inflmammed. Most of Europe has despised the US for the last 15-20 years. The Middle East has despised us since the concept of Israel. We are hearing more about this, thanks to better "media" coverage and the Internet. 9/11 & Iraq are just catalysts for our despisement.
Desert Storm Vet I
Well, 9/11 originally engendered a lot of support for the US. Yes, the actions of the US in the Middle East, especially regarding Isreal, has been fodder for hatred, though I would disagree that Europe has despised the US for the last 15-20 years. True the obnoxious American Tourist was the butt of many jokes, but most of those had been replaced by the 'Ugly German' tourist. The deep links forged by similar cultures, massive amounts of trade, and many treaties and alliances portray a relatively close relationship. The relationship has deteriorated markedly in the last few years.
Yes, Saddam had large regional ambitions, which were pretty well squelched at the time of the invasion.
Tilo Reber wrote:
How do you know that they were not more swelled in the past when Al Quida enjoyed all kinds of success in Afghanistan and Chechnya and Somalia?
Well, the Reagan Administration helped to finance and train the Arab Afghanistan "freedom fighters" against the Soviet Union. There is no doubt that there ranks were swelled by this success. As for Somalia, you can blame the Pentagon and Colin Powell for their bad advice against putting troops on the ground from the beginning to kill Aidid. They let it get out of hand and it was only after Clinton took control of the situation that no further US troops were lost.
How do you know that when Al Quida was able to attack the US without response by the Clinton administration that it did not cause their ranks to swell?
Perhaps it did. But the Clinton Administration did not connect the dots on al Qaeda and bin Laden until the end of their second term. It was George W. Bush who downgraded the threat and removed Richard Clarke from a cabinet level position.
What do you think gave Al Quida the idea that they could attack the US with impunity?
The Bush Administration never retalitated for the USS Cole neither. And that was after al Qaeda had been identified as a real threat.
Osama was a popular leader in the Arab world long before Bush came to power.
Not really.
And you are suggesting that we should shape our national policy because certain people use such isolated incidents for their own propaganda purposes?
I don't think the US Government should condone torture out of principle. Period. It will obviously be used to incite hatred against your country but that is secondary.
Since there are less attacks in other places in the world, such as Afghanistan, you have yet to demonstrate that overall terror has increased.
You're a little behind the curve, aren't you?
You don't seem to be able to tell the difference between terrorism and a war against a dictatorship. The people who were being Shocked and Awed into submission were not the civilians.
Tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of civilians died in the invasion at the hands of US airpower.
Tell me all about the repression that you or any of your friends have suffered as a result of the Patriot Act.
That's so predictable. If it hasn't happened to you, personally, than it's not happening at all? Please. I thought you believed in free speech in your country?
Chalabi
"What is that supposed to mean? The US received sympathy throughout the world and the ME after 9/11."
Yes, the world liked seeing the US as a victim to be pitied. They don't like a US that will not allow itself to be vicimized.
Ash,
I was in Europe with a tour group in 1980. We were not rude to our host countries but were sneered at by most of the population. We were told to go home, given the finger(s), etc. The most courteous country was Great Britain and had a good visit with an elderly french couple. They thanked us for ridding their country of Hitler. I do not dislike our european neighbors but, at the same time, I do not give it a priority to travel the globe, unlike most of the younger US population.
Ahmed, Jihad was declared by the Ayatollah Khomeni against the US in 1979. Even after supplying the mujadeen that repelled the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan in the 80's, certain elements were planning the US demise. The demolitions of the Embassy in Nairobi and the attack on the USS Cole helped open my eyes. After 9/11, seeing the Palistinians rejoicing and dancing in the streets after the WTC destruction made it clear to me that Middle East opinion was, and still is, vehemently anti-american.
Quentin wrote:
Karzai 'solve' the problem of increasing opium production: you must be kidding, only if he employs the Taliban.
Yes, I agree. Tilo Reber is being pretty stupid about the opium problem. He fails to realize that those profits directly finance the warlords, with which the US is now collaborating. They are not on the run, you fool. They own the entire country and there is nothing "free" and "democratic" about being governed by an Afghani warlord.
Tilo Reber wrote:
Yes, the world liked seeing the US as a victim to be pitied. They don't like a US that will not allow itself to be vicimized.
That is a bit foolish. How could a country that spends more on the military than the rest of the world COMBINED be a victim? Don't you think that is rather silly? I mean, you sure do have a lot of stealth bombers and nuclear ICBMs for a victim.
Desert Storm Vet I,
Ahmed, Jihad was declared by the Ayatollah Khomeni against the US in 1979.
Yes, no surprise about that either. The US had helped overthrow the democratically elected leader of Iran only a few years earlier. Did you think the Iranians liked living under a US-imposed tyrant?
After 9/11, seeing the Palistinians rejoicing and dancing in the streets after the WTC destruction made it clear to me that Middle East opinion was, and still is, vehemently anti-american.
That is a ridiculous generalization, don't you think? The ME clearly does not = a few Palestinians. If the US had a more balanced approach to the Israel/Palestine issue than those few people wouldn't hate your country so much. It's quite simple, really.
Hey Ash, The phony Chalabi, what were our alternatives???
Of course it's effective.
Terrorism hasn't increased at all. 9//11 happened before, not after the Iraq war. The attack on Spain was to remove them from what mattered, the battleground Iraq. Overall, terrorist attacks worldwide have decreased, the only place terrorism has increased is in Iraq, becuase that's the important battleground that they're losing right now. The only reason you see them so aggressive there is called desperation. They're losing. That's a part of the world they will no longer have a heavy network flow in or dominance over. And instead of getting support from Iraq, Iraq will be helping us hunt them down. Their influence and power is being driven further and further down. Afghanistan was a big hit to them, Iraq is another. And along the way, the people benefit with freedom and jobs, etc. Like I said, everyone benefits, except the terrorists themselves, and the corrupt politicians who were getting paid under the table by them.
"
That is a ridiculous generalization, don't you think? The ME clearly does not = a few Palestinians. If the US had a more balanced approach to the Israel/Palestine issue than those few people wouldn't hate your country so much. It's quite simple, really."
Ahmed, I would like to accept your opinion of ME folks. Unfortunately, what I have seen and experienced leaves me to believe otherwise. As far as a balanced approach to Israel, if we did'nt "travel down the path we did", Israel would have ceased to exist today.
Have a good day.
Mk wrote:
Terrorism hasn't increased at all.
It's your word against the State Department's. They tried to cover for you but they failed. Sorry.
U.S. raises figures for 2003 terrorist attacks
'Significant attacks' at 21-year high, revised data show
Chalabi, no response??? Afraid to offer a solution that people can shoot down or just don't have any??
Desert Storm Vet I,
As far as a balanced approach to Israel, if we did'nt "travel down the path we did", Israel would have ceased to exist today.
Do I really need to explain what the word BALANCED means to you? It means not supporting Palestinian terrorism but also not supporting Israel's war crimes. Very simple really.
This is something I wrote elsewhere. The Marwan Bargouti part may already have been bypassed by events.
Sure, you want a plan, I'll give you a plan, though I do admit that the problems are not simple and easy to solve, many steps need to be taken and the order in which things are done is important and the outcome of particular steps should influence what approach is taken next.
The War in Iraq is like a Chinese finger trap for the US. The harder the US tries to 'win' the more the US will lose. The US has no choice but to withdraw. They should announce that they will be withdrawing fully by a certain date in the near future. The US should offer to place their troops under UN command if a large number of nations also offer to pledge troops, to function as peacekeepers. The UN should not deploy the troops unless the various parties in Iraq agree to a ceasefire and agree to go to the polls. If the security situation is too precarious, then the Iraqis need to be left to themselves to sort it out.
The US should put pressure on the Isreali's to negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians and pressure should be put on Isreal to dismantle the settlements and build 'the wall' on the 1967 boundries. The US has much power over Isreal's actions. The simple threat of withdrawal of funding is often enough to generate change in Isreali policy. The US should back the UN and offer to put international monitors and possibly peacekeepers on the ground in the Palestinian territories. The basis for a solution to this long festering problem is generally well accepted. The US should help Isreal understand that if Marwan Barghouti's politcal star continues to rise he should be released and negotiated with. This could be the 'grand gesture' by the Isreali's which could break the current logjam.
The US should actively work with the UN to reform the UN. There is currently a window of opportunity and proposal's on the table at the UN regarding serious reform.
The US should sign on to the protocols and support and enhance the World Court.
The government of the US should acknowledge that they live in a very complex world, with very complex problems and a multi-lateral approach based on Rule of Law is the best way to deal with the world.
The US should continue to go after terrorists and their sponsors, but they should do it in a considered and multilateral way. Virtually no nation has an interest in sponsoring terrorism in general, sure they have been willing to use them as proxies serving larger geopolitical interests, as the US also has done. Terrorists are generally small disparate groups with vaying agendas. Dealing with them is more of a police action as opposed to a 'War'.
The US should agressively work towards Nuclear Non-proliferation while also realizing that part of the bargain for the US is to also disarm, otherwise why should anyone else? How can you tell the Iranians, for instance, that they must not develop Nuclear weapons
It got truncated. Here is the last little bit.
The US should agressively work towards Nuclear Non-proliferation while also realizing that part of the bargain for the US is to also disarm, otherwise why should anyone else? How can you tell the Iranians, for instance, that they must not develop Nuclear weapons, when you retain you have the right to continue development of them?
These are only a few ideas, and they are necessarily subject to much negotiation amongst the various parties but it also is diametrically opposed to the current direction the Bush Administration is pursuing.
Chalabi, no response??? Afraid to offer a solution that people can shoot down or just don't have any??
thewiz
It takes awhile to come up with and try to write a solution to the problems in ME. His arguments so far have given a good indication of what he thinks should not be done.
thewiz,
Alternatives to what? Invading Iraq? Yes. I can think of many, many alternatives to wasting billions of dollars and thousands of lives on an unnecessary war.
How about channelling that energy into fighting AIDS and Malaria in Africa? That would save millions of lives and help the most destitute. Yes. That is what I would do if I were a Christian nation.
No, Tilo Reber, the world sympathized, felt involved in the suffering of the U.S. on September 11. Very few people enjoyed seeing what happened, and very few saw the U.S. as a victim to be pitied. When you see a friend in grief because of the death of a loved one, you sympathize: that is what the world did. Later things changed for many reasons, starting with Mr. Bush's and his colleague's arrogance, their insistence that nothing and no one counted except the U.S. and their opinion. That is the source of the present misery, the confusion, the desperation. If they had waited six months before invading Iraq, they would have had a real coalition like the one in the Gulf War, and Iraq would now be a free, sovereign state, which it is not.
Further, Tilo Reber, as someone else wrote, it is ridiculous to see the U.S., which runs the world, as a victim. And the U.S. drug problem can hardly be the fault of a place like Holland. The U.S. war on drugs is a mammoth undertaking/industry which has been going on for decades. Long ago I came to the conclusion that domestic political and financial interests work against it.
Chalabi, The question is what we should have done about Iraq, as I'm sure you know. (see post from 12:44 PM) You just don't want to answer 'cause there was no better alternative.
thewiz,
Iraq was not a threat to the United States, so from a military standpoint, there was no need to invade. As for the human rights situation, the US has not remedied that problem by bombing the country and unleashing a civil war. The alternative would have been to continue to pursue cooperation with the UN Security Council while clamping down on the Oil-for-Food corruption. You probably aren't aware of this but the US knew about and tolerated most of the corruption under that program while it was happening.
http://www.worldtribune.com/worl...13.html\">major rift between Israel and the Defense Dept!
"the US knew about and tolerated most of the corruption under that program while it was happening."
Gosh, Ahmed, you wouldn't have any evidence to back up that claim would you
oops. that didin't work as planned.
major rift between Israel and the Defense Dept!
Ash,
I heard it discussed on NPR the other day. Here's one source and here's another:
The United States failed to crack down on Jordan, Turkey, and Syria. According to the Administration's chief weapons inspector in Iraq, Saddam generated some $3 billion in schemes to subvert the program and $7.5 billion in direct deals with governments. The main routes for these illicit transactions were deals negotiated with neighboring countries, notably Jordan, Syria and Turkey (most negotiated before oil-for-food began). The United States explicitly condoned Iraq's deals with Jordan and Turkey, and was unable to persuade Syria to stop buying Iraqi oil outside of the oil-for-food program, allowing the country to become a major supplier of military goods to Iraq.
Chalabi; First, Iraq was a threat. The first World Trade Center bombing was doen with the aid of two Iraqis and one was given safe haven in Iraq. The Oklahoma City/Tim McVeigh bombing also had an Iraqi connection read "The Third Terrorist" by Jayna Davis
Plus, as Iraq deteriated, it would have been a huge risk to the world. See above post at 12:44
True, the US knew of oil being smuggled to Turkey, Syria, and Jordan and should have done more to stop it. But the oil to Turkey was sold by the Kurdish people and helped finance a democracy in that area. And the oil to Jordan helped a friendly government in Jordan. We shoulda shut down the oil going to Syria.
And ge a better psuedonym. I don't like talking to someone that is impersonating someone else. Seems unseemly!!
thewiz,
"The first World Trade Center bombing was doen with the aid of two Iraqis and one was given safe haven in Iraq."
Are you talking about Ramzi Yousef? He was apprehended in Pakistan. Laurie Mylroie is a conspiracy nutjob and you're stealing her theories. The first WTC bombing was planned, financed and executed by al Qaeda without any help from Iraq.
"If they had waited six months before invading Iraq, they would have had a real coalition like the one in the Gulf War"
That seems extemely implausible considering the US had already been waiting since 1998 when it first announced the intent to seek regime change in Iraq, particularly once you learn enough to realise the reasons Hussein's primary arms suppliers (France, Russia and Germany) wanted to keep him in power were not temporary: they wanted him in power in 1995, they wanted him in power in 2000, they still wanted him in power in early 2003 - why would late 2003 suddenly have changed all that?
"and Iraq would now be a free, sovereign state, which it is not."
Even less plausible. A slightly bigger coalition would somehow have achieved faster progress in half the time, you think? As it stands, we'll reach that point in about 6-7 weeks time anyway - without having to buy the "support" of people like Chirac, even assuming we could have matched Saddam's price of $100bn.
I just want to say to all you guys-thewiz, Neon,Tilo, Steph, Talldave, Leap, Doorgunner, Soda, Tass, Monica, the Good Anon, MK, DS Vet, Brian H., Mod Dem, and others (sorry I can't remember all the names), on countering the crazies like Ash, Ahmed, etc - ** BIG ROUND OF APPLAUSE** You guys kick butt. I admire your energy, intelligence and most of all tenacity to keep up the good debate. Rock on!
No, "Chalabi", it's Abdul Rahman Yasin we're talking about, who was sheltered in Baghdad following his attack on the WTC.
This might be of interest on the subject: http://tinyurl.com/542wj
Oh and James too and Thinker and Glitch - *clap clap clap* I am so glad you guys are the majority. Could you imagine a world where the crazies were the majority - I see only darkness and despair in that scenerio.
Chalabi Wrote:
"Well, the Reagan Administration helped to finance and train the Arab Afghanistan "freedom fighters" against the Soviet Union."
For the most part he financed and trained the Afghan Majahedeen to fight the Soviet Union. It was the right thing to do and it helped us to win the cold war. We did not train or arm Al Queda. We did not train or arm the Taliban.
"As for Somalia, you can blame the Pentagon and Colin Powell for their bad advice against putting troops on the ground from the beginning to kill Aidid."
So in the Clinton era the advisers are to blame. In the Bush era, Bush is to blame?
"They let it get out of hand and it was only after Clinton took control of the situation that no further US troops were lost."
No further troops were lost and Somaila turned into a nation of anarchy. And since Clinton ran after only 17 US troops were lost Bin Laden came out and publicly stated that the US was a paper tiger. The Islamist of the world saw a new era of Islamic domination and expansion and came running to join him.
"Perhaps it did. But the Clinton Administration did not connect the dots on al Qaeda and bin Laden until the end of their second term."
And why is that, considering all of the meetings that he was holding with Richard Clark?
"It was George W. Bush who downgraded the threat and removed Richard Clarke from a cabinet level position."
George Bush didn't downgrade anything. He simply took a different approach. Clintons plan was to have a lot of meetings and to kill a few camels. Bush knows that meetings alone never accomplished anything and he called for a more comprehensive and preemptive manner of dealing with terrorists. Richard Clark was simply whining because he couldn't get any presidential face time. Furthermore, the Clinton administration built the wall between domestic intelligence and international intelligence that prevented the 9/11 plot from being exposed.
What do you think gave Al Quida the idea that they could attack the US with impunity?
"The Bush Administration never retalitated for the USS Cole neither."
You mean retaliate like Clinton retaliated. That wasn't going to discourage Al Quida in the slightest.
"Osama was a popular leader in the Arab world long before Bush came to power.
Not really."
Yes, really.
"I don't think the US Government should condone torture out of principle. Period."
They don't. Period. But as the international community redefines torture to include discomfort, I see no reason to go along. For that matter, I'm not sure that I agree to tying our hands against an opponent who clearly will not abide by the same standards.
Since there are less attacks in other places in the world, such as Afghanistan, you have yet to demonstrate that overall terror has increased.
"You're a little behind the curve, aren't you?"
No, I'm not. And I don't see the evidence in your link.
You don't seem
Iraq was not a threat to the United States,
Neither was Germany during WWII.
:As for the human rights situation, the US has not remedied that problem by bombing the country and unleashing a civil war."
There is no civil war and the problem is very much in the process of being remedied.
" The alternative would have been to continue to pursue cooperation with the UN Security Council while clamping down on the Oil-for-Food corruption."
How idiotic. Three members of the Security Council were the beneficiaries of the Oil-for-Food corruption. Furthermore, those same members were fighting to remove sanctions so that they could get even more from Saddam. And even if your plan worked to contain Saddam, how would it get the people of Iraq out from under his oppression.
" You probably aren't aware of this but the US knew about and tolerated most of the corruption under that program while it was happening."
Did you read that in Le Monde, Al Jezeera, or the NY Times?
Have any of you guys heard Jayna Davis on the radio or read her book, The Third Terrorist? She did some awesome work and has a tremendous amount of info. Check it out someday.
Sleepless, Thanks for your applause but, as this is an obsession with me, what I really need is help with my psychoatrists bills. Besides, I've seen you engaged with the enemy yerslf!!
thewiz,
I should pay you cuz you help me remain sane in this insane world. I mean take for example Ash's answer titled -
"This is something I wrote elsewhere." I don't know how to link to a post, but this whole thing he wrote here is total nonsense. I really don't have the patience that you all do to reply to this because I think my God, can someone really think this way?
I do enjoy reading you guys and I keep thinking I might agree with something the other side has to say once in a while, but that has yet to happen. So that's why I should pay you too, I am too lazy to get into it with them most of the time and I appreciate the energy you expend to do so.
Yes I have taken a few pot shots at the enemy but I don't have as many bullets in my arsenal as you do and you all seem to be great shots. Although they do remind me of Freddy- they keep getting up somehow.
The united states is the world's shame.
I'm glad that the US is the "world's shame." Why? Because 'the world' is chock full of utter dipshit titweaseals like kofi annon and Mr. Suleiman.
The world is the shame of the US. Fuck the UN...move it out of the US and give it to the world.
I'll be in the holy city of New York this Saturday for a few days. If the UN building gits shot up this weekend it WASN'T ME. I leave my gun collection at home when I travel. But I may leave a brown paper bag full of horseshit in the lobby, lite it on fire, and take pictures of some scumbag diplomat stomping out the fire.
Oh, our enlighted Israel Suleiman says: The united states is the world's shame.
Israel you are a shame to mankind with your racist and a cowardly words!
God Bless Americans!
That is a bit foolish. How could a country that spends more on the military than the rest of the world COMBINED be a victim? Don't you think that is rather silly? I mean, you sure do have a lot of stealth bombers and nuclear ICBMs for a victim.
Ahmed Chalabi | Email | Homepage | 12.16.04 - 1:16 pm | #
And who does that military defend? All those countries that don't want to pay for their own defense.
Hey Chalabi, I don't recall anyone attacking military targets like ". . .stealth bombers and nuclear ICBMs". Reference please? I just remember buildings full of people.
I may be wrong, but I have the impression that the readers of this blog are nearly all (maybe all) U.S. persons. Please correct me on this if necessary. There must be many, many Iraqis, especially the younger generation, whose command of English is as good as that of the writers of this blog. I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of Iraqis about the stir this blog has caused in blogland. If something can be found on other Iraqi blogs, please let me know. I can't access the comment section of Ali's previous so post, so I ask here.
Raed in the Middle
Iraq Blog Count
Here are two other blogs by young Iraqi's, which will give you some different views to what you see here.
The united states is the world's shame.
Israel Suleiman | Email | Homepage | 12.16.04 - 6:46 pm |
Israel is the world's shame.
uppercase Ken said: "The united states is the world's shame.
Israel Suleiman | Email | Homepage | 12.16.04 - 6:46 pm |
Israel is the world's shame.
Ken"
Why yes, I agree with both statements. The nations of the United States and Israel are the worlds shame.
Thanks for the links, Ash.
I can't believe I forgot Riverbend
Israel is not the world's shame. Stop the hypocrysie. So united states is the world's shame. Why? Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Korea, Vietnam, Dominik Republic, Cuba, Panama, Chile, Iran, Granada, Nicaragua, Iugoslavia, Somalia, Koweit, Afganistan, Iraq, etc, etc, etc. Always united states is a criminal country. United Nations? NO! Haia International Tribunal? NO! Kioto Project? NO! Coward intervention and criminal agression in others countries? YES! Destruction and civilians murders? YES! YEAH! Freedom and democracy!!! Freedom and democracy!!! Enjoy!!!
Riverbend is actually Mr. Hassan Zeini
Hassan has been around for awhile, writing for arabic publications and getting some print in radical lefty publications. He is intelligent, well financed, and extremely knowledgeable in Iraqi history and in matters of the former regime, especially the Sadaam's version of the Baathist takeover. He is best buddies with a guy named Juan Cole, a professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History out of the University of Michigan that writes for agenceglobal.com a real whackjob left-wing org that favored the Sadaam and Baathist regime in Iraq.
hehehehe,
Thanks Santa for the informative presentation of facts :0
I read it on the internet therefore it must be true!
Jacque Chirac's mother is the world's shame.
cowboy up boston red sox's mother is too the world's shame.
I doubt your name is really Israel. That word has a beautiful ring to it, like seeing a desert bloom. My real name is Bob the Builder. Your real name is negative Nellie.
Sillyman: "Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Korea, Vietnam, Dominik Republic, Cuba, Panama, Chile, Iran, Granada, Nicaragua, Iugoslavia, Somalia, Koweit, Afganistan, Iraq, etc, etc, etc. Always united states is a criminal country. United Nations? NO!"
If you'd thought about it a little, you might have spotted that two of those "US" activities were at the explicit request of the UN. Applying more thought would then make you understand that there is no such concept of "criminal" actions in this context, since there is no criminal law - the nearest being Security Council binding resolutions. Care to guess how many of those events were
Remember you others "u.s." criminal "activities". Guantánamo e Abu Ghraib. The united states is the world's shame.
Israel Suleiman you seem so hate filled. Such bitter little words, over and over, usually mean a small minded person.
No room for improvement then.
"us" hate the world. The "us" is a criminal country.
don't waste any more text on this loser, he's not worth it. he's just trying to get attention by saying the stupidest things he can come up with. well, this is the end of what he's getting from me.
Hope your pro-fascism, anti-democracy prattling and cheerleading results in some horrible fate. Why anyone would continually cheer the American Saddam, Bush, or his puppet ruler, the terrorist Allawi, I have no idea. Get used to doing what you're told, because that is the American way.
And thanks for the oil.
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